| Revision as of 01:07, 29 December 2021 editSauceweb (talk | contribs)19 edits →Clarify censorship employed at CSU Fresno: new sectionTag: New topic← Previous edit |
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== UNDUE content removed == |
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== Should Said be categorized as "Muslim apologist"? == |
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I have , cited to , which has demonstrable errors. |
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Should we add the category {{Cl|Muslim apologists}} to this article? |
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There is a similar discussion happening at ]. The evidence presented in favor of such a categorization are two quotes: |
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{{talkquote|We will also look at responses to these perspectives from Apologists like Said with his accusation that Orientalism stems from xenophobia and Esposito, who identifies aspects of Islam from which could spring democracy. ]}} |
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{{talkquote|Prominent apologists include Edward Said, Franz Fanon, John Esposito...in ''America’s War against Global Jihad'', page 247}} |
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I'm not completely sure such a categorization would be appropriate. The sources seem somewhat biased. What do others think? Pinging last few people who engaged in discussion here: {{ping|Chas. Caltrop}}, {{ping|Eperoton}}, {{ping|Nishidani}}, {{ping|MichelleInSanMarcos}}, {{ping|Fa suisse}}, sorry if I missed anyone.''']''' <sub>]</sub> 00:42, 12 August 2020 (UTC) |
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*No - just in case anyone hasn't read the article Said was raised Christian & was never a Muslim. He doesn't I think write about Islam as such that much, more about Middle Eastern culture, history and politics as a whole. ] (]) 01:00, 12 August 2020 (UTC) |
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*Neutral – I don't know enough to opine. Thank you for pinging me. ] (]) 01:05, 12 August 2020 (UTC) |
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::{{u|Johnbod}}, apparently the category {{Cl|Muslim apologists}} is not about Muslims who are into apologetics, but academics who have contributed to ]. Both sources seem to be calling him "apologetic" when it comes to Islam/Muslim world.''']''' <sub>]</sub> 01:38, 12 August 2020 (UTC) |
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:::And have you read the 2 lines at that link? It's still no - both sources seem highly partisan, and not RS as far as the "other side" goes. ] (]) 01:58, 12 August 2020 (UTC) |
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::::{{u|Johnbod}}, which two lines at which link? Why do you feel the sources are partisan? Btw, I tend to agree with you, but I'm just trying to understand why.''']''' <sub>]</sub> 02:02, 12 August 2020 (UTC) |
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::::::The link you just gave - ]. Can't see Said doing anything like that. I was maybe unfair to ], but not I think the other. ] (]) 12:43, 12 August 2020 (UTC) |
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* Responding to a ping. Hmm. |
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: Consideration #1: "Apologist" is a peculiar term, which has a neutral scholarly usage and derogatory popular usage. In scholarly usage, it traditionally refers to a branch of "defensive" theology. In popular usage, it usually refers to defending something indefensible. Some intellectual polemics use it in an ambiguous way, sneaking in a visceral dig at their opponents while keeping up appearances of being objective ("revisionist" is another term of this kind). At least that's my "OR", because dictionaries curiously don't distinguish between these uses, but rather construct a single definition, mostly a general sense of speaking in defense of something. |
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: Consideration #2: We have categories "Jewish apologists" and "Christian apologists". The former is shorter, and as far as I can tell, it's limited to Jewish religious figures defending their faith against attack on its veracity, and does not include people who defend Jews or Judaism against any kind of attacks. I personally thinks it would be wise to keep these categories that way. The Christian category is longer, and I don't have time to go through it. Obviously, it would be absurd to suggest that Said is known for defending veracity of Islam. |
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: Consideration #3: If we base this category on RSs, I'd like to make sure that it's being used there as a neutral description, by authors who agree with the person in question, as well as those who disapprove of their views. |
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: On the balance: '''not convinced that it is appropriate'''. ] (]) 03:27, 12 August 2020 (UTC) |
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::Definitely not per Johnbod and Epereton. 'Apologetics' used to be a (noble) genre of theological literature, with autobiographical uses (Newman), and the word was used correctly in its classical Greek sense, shorn of the innuendo, now ever-present in usage, of 'covering up for, throwing one's weight about, to support a lost, evil, or fringe cause. I say that as a published critic of Said's approach in his 'Orientalism'. To cast his critique of Western imperialism's massive, doggedly persistent destabilization of states in the Middle East, when not supporting its friendly dictators, as a defense of a religion is a category mistake, and a designedly pointy one at that.] (]) 09:00, 12 August 2020 (UTC) |
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*'''No'''. The evidence is not strong enough to brand a significant scholar like Said with these labels. ] (]) 13:04, 12 August 2020 |
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(UTC) |
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* '''No.''' Prof.–Dr. Edward Saïd never apologised for Muslims and their actions. I concur with the other editors who voted "No" to the ] mislabelling of a legitimate academic. This ], anti-intellectual smear again proves that Saïd spoke truth (verifiable facts) about the matters he addressed as a public intellectual, especially at this temporal remove from his death. |
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:Just because an opinion was published does not make the opinion true; it is fascinating to see that '''the fear of facts''' keeps Prof. Edward Saïd alive to his anti-intellectual enemies who '''do work as apologists''' for the ]. '''The bored Misplaced Pages editors with nothing productive to do, and who are looking for someone to do it to, need a Wikibreak'''; of the dead speak only truth; nothing else is available. |
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:] (]) 15:50, 12 August 2020 (UTC) |
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*'''Depends'''. Will having that categorization make it easier for someone in the future to compare people in that category? Will having that categorization add to or detract from wikipedia cred? ] (]) 05:01, 6 September 2020 (UTC) |
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: '''This is another lame way of dismissing the facts that Prof. Saïd reported, by ''claiming'': “That’s just Saïd’s opinion” in order to ignore the facts of contemporary geopolitical reality.''' Labelling the "Christian" Edward Saïd as a "Muslim apologist" is just another laughable right-wing effort to label him a villain, for spelling out the obvious rationale of empire, thus the dishonesty of anti-intellectual people (indifferent to facts) who attack the messenger, Prof. Saïd, when the facts don't favour them; such right-wing loser's resort to personal insults. |
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:] (]) 12:04, 6 September 2020 (UTC) |
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The truth is that Said was a Nazi and you probably are as well. See, others can do it too - you don’t have a monopoly on emotionalistic talking-down. Behave like an adult. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 03:27, 6 October 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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# Silvers was editor of the ''Review'' . |
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== Add == |
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# Obituaries for his brother – who the source claims lived in Israel at the time – . |
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Please add ] to the article --] (]) 21:42, 30 November 2020 (UTC) |
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# by and about Said were published in the ''Review'' during that time frame, |
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#: including in 1982. |
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# "He told me" in a non-peer reviewed essay is hearsay; considering the demonstrable inaccuracies in the source, they can be considered UNDUE, and the source is suspect. |
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] (]) 23:30, 12 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:And a few more Said publications in the ''Review'': |
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== Missing word (minor) == |
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:# 1984: |
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:# 1989: |
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:# 1982: |
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:] (]) 00:11, 13 November 2023 (UTC) |
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== Said's father is a Palestinian-American == |
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Final paragraph of opening summary, which reads "...developed with Barenboim, was created Berlin" may be missing a word, which could read '''"...created ''in'' Berlin."''' ] (]) 19:54, 7 January 2021 (UTC) |
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Said's father should be identified as a Palestinian-American. According to the Guardian's obituary "His father Wadie, a Christian, had emigrated to the US before the first world war. He volunteered for service in France and returned to the Middle East as a respectable Protestant businessman - with American citizenship - before making an arranged marriage to the daughter of a Baptist minister from Nazareth. |
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== Useful ref == |
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In Out Of Place (1999), the memoir of his childhood and youth, Said described his father, who called himself William to emphasise his adopted American identity, as overbearing and uncommunicative." |
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So while Said's father was born in Palestine (during Ottoman times), he emigrated to the US and later gained citizenship during military service. He returned to the region, then under British control, as an American expat to do business. He married a local woman and raised children. But there is no indication Said's father gave up his citizenship in the US despite living and working in Palestine and Egypt. |
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* ‘ |
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So he should be identified as Palestinian-American. Compare his identity to that of ] who is identified as "Palestinian-American" because she gained American citizenship during her adulthood but lived most of her life in the Middle East (mostly the Palestinian Territory of the West Bank and also partially in Jordan). If she is Palestinian-American than so is Said's father. |
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So the sentence "His parents were born in the Ottoman Empire: his mother Hilda Said (née Musa) was half Palestinian and half Lebanese, and was raised in the city of Nazareth; and his father Wadie "William" Said was a Jerusalem-based Palestinian businessman." should instead read "...Wadie "William" Said was a Jerusalem-based Palestinian-American businessman."] (]) 15:43, 17 March 2024 (UTC) |
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] (]) 07:31, 6 October 2021 (UTC) |
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== Suggestion for edit for clarity == |
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== David Price == |
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: After the ], he relocated to Egypt and then to the United States, enrolling at ] and ], respectively. |
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I know Counterpunch is deprecated, but I am restoring the usage by David Price. Price is the author of a book specifically about the FBI spying on intellectuals in the US, , and this specific article is cited . <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 23:20, 17 December 2021 (UTC)</small> |
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:That makes sense under ]: "{{tq|Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications}}."''']''' <sub>]</sub> 03:38, 18 December 2021 (UTC) |
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:Some of the facts are also supported by . piece mentions the FBI file. ] 06:22, 18 December 2021 (UTC) |
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::If they supported by other sources why use depreciated source? ] (]) 06:36, 18 December 2021 (UTC) |
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:::That should be 'deprecated'. One cannot maintain the double standard of allowing generously a lot of trash sources (Algemeiner, Arutz Sheva, Jewish Chronicle etc.etc.etc., all over wiki pages, uncontested, while warring out any reference to CounterPunch/Mondoweiss, some of the scarce webzines that do provide on occasion solid reports written by authorities in the field. Context has always determined what to use in these cases. If the credentials are solid, and the article cogently written, it is acceptable, as VR notes. Otherwise people should press for a total ban on every noted writer, thinker, historian or scholar whenever they choose to write for that webzine - which would be folly.] (]) 10:59, 18 December 2021 (UTC) |
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:::Why use this source? Because it is written by an expert in the field. By the person who uncovered the FBI surveillance of Said. Do you think this specific source is unreliable? <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 13:38, 18 December 2021 (UTC)</small> |
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Shrike, let me ask you a straight question in the hopes of getting a straight response. is the author , published by ], a book focused specifically on the FBI's surveillance of of academics they considered activists, and, also published by DUP, focused on collaboration between the US intelligence agencies and military and anthropologists. His work is widely cited (eg , ). Do you challenge that David Price is a reliable source for the topic of the FBI surveilling Said? Because if you do then sure Ill take this specific source to RSN. If you dont, then kindly remove the tag. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 14:08, 18 December 2021 (UTC)</small> |
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:Though Nish, I think it best to give Shrike the opportunity to challenge the source or remove the tag himself tbh. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 14:27, 18 December 2021 (UTC)</small> |
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::Well, occasions when Shrike has argued for his views at length are few and far between. Correct me if I am wrong Shrike. I would want to see evidence that Shrike has read the source, rather than, as it strikes me is often the case, spotting the word Counterpunch and then removing or challenging it automatically. Boy I could spend days and ratchet up my edit count exponentially if I had a mind to question thousands of uses of Arutz Sheva, the Algemeiner and any of the dozens of provincial newspaper sources. One should always concentrate on the quality of the specific source, and its author. The case is obviously a no-brainer. And whatever the 'deprecation' judgement in that bizarre RSN discussion, the fact remains that numerous authoritative scholars choose to publish in that source, and attempts to purge anything ever written on CounterPunch from wikipedia indiscriminately is a mere cleansing on an abstract pretext for POV ends. I've removed the tag, since only Shrike objects. ] (]) 14:35, 18 December 2021 (UTC) |
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::In fact, this point should be clarified about a number of ostensibly 'deprecated sources' at the appropriate board. For the moment, everything deprecated refers to alternative websites that contain information on Palestinians, coverage of whom is reduced to 'mainstream' Israeli and US newspapers whereas the realities of Israeli and Jewish life have an indiscriminate and massive range of sources no one has waged a campaign against (and, in my view, rightly so). I dislike a large amount of the hysterical rubbish 'reportage' in the Tablet magazine, but at times (on the Yiddish dispute) it carries important and authoritative articles. Editors should learn to rely on consensual analysis of specific articles and not on a reflex 'gotcha' approach derived from an abstract egeneral judgement.] (]) 14:40, 18 December 2021 (UTC) |
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:::)- |
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:::No, we are not quoting CounterPunch, any more than if I cite ] for an article appearing in ], I'd be quoting CQ. No one challenges the fact that we cite here Said from CounterPunch and ] . Now that I've tipped off editors who edit without actually reading the page that the objection to Price is anomalous, I guess they'll rush to tag those as well. Eventually we'll be banning ] as well, because he wrote for CounterPunch, and therefore guilt by association with a paranoid, conspiracy-mongering anti-Semitic organ (according to the RSN deprecation screed). ] (]) 23:14, 18 December 2021 (UTC) |
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::::no idea what you mean, but we ''are'' quoting CounterPunch (regardless of who wrote the report), which is a deprecated source. Therefore the tag is warranted, and tags should generally not be removed without coming to a consensus on the talk page. ] (]) 09:43, 19 December 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::It is a simple distinction in English, between citing a source and quoting a person. If you can't see it, well. . . The reference does not quote CounterPunch: it '''paraphrases''' what Price writes. Ah, one can only deprecate the loss of all sensitivity to what words mean, and how in a semantic field, related terms neatly distinguished are collapsed and jumped as if they were all interchangeable synonyms (as, for a fourth example, the confusion of 'depreciate' with deprecate') above. Not understanding simple prose, lastly, is not a good sign for talk pages ] (]) 10:26, 19 December 2021 (UTC) |
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::::::stop with the personal attacks. That's not how quoting or citing works. If you quote price ''in'' counterpunch you are using (citing Price in) counterpunch, which is depreacted and shouldn't be used. ] (]) 10:37, 19 December 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::::Price is an expert in the field and may be used if he were writing on his blog. Are you challenging the reliability of Price in Counterpunch here? <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 21:02, 21 December 2021 (UTC)</small> |
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Since I find this tagging to be absurd, Ive raised the issue at RSN. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 21:40, 21 December 2021 (UTC)</small> |
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The above sentence might be better rendered as |
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No, you can't achieve ] against a broad general RFC on a local talk page. Also, please review ] and stop with the personal attacks - ] (]) 22:03, 21 December 2021 (UTC) |
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:] specifically says that all removals are to be looked at. I am raising your editing elsewhere. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 22:04, 21 December 2021 (UTC)</small> |
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: After the ], he relocated to Egypt and then to the United States, enrolling at ] while in Egypyt and ] after arriving in the United States. |
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::I looked. HTH! - ] (]) 22:06, 21 December 2021 (UTC) |
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:::Did you look at how you removed ] sources and The Nation? Great help. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 22:58, 21 December 2021 (UTC)</small> |
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for clarity. But as I don’t yet have 500 edits, I don’t have the requisite privileges to make the edit myself. ] (]) 14:15, 16 July 2024 (UTC) |
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== Clarify censorship employed at CSU Fresno == |
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: Yes, that is an improvement. Thank you {{u|D A Hosek}}. ] (]) 15:45, 16 July 2024 (UTC) |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 October 2024 == |
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In the "]" section, there's this snippet: |
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{{edit extended-protected|Edward Said|answered=yes}} |
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> In 2016, ] started examining applicants for a newly created Professorship in Middle East Studies named after Edward Said, but after months of examining applicants, Fresno State canceled the search. Some observers claim that the cancellation was due to pressure from some individuals and groups. |
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I'd like to replace the profile picture. The profile photo of Prof. Edward Said shown in the article is not really a representative one, in the sense that's not how he's known around the world. It's also a side profile of the professor, and that's just poor. I have better pictures of him. ] (]) 09:54, 26 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:Misplaced Pages has strict rules about the use of images, so as to avoid copyright violations. If they're pictures you took yourself, you can upload them with ]. Otherwise, you'll have to prove that they're either in the public domain or were released under an applicable Creative Commons license. ] (]) 22:42, 26 October 2024 (UTC) |
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== First wife not mentioned == |
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Source ] clearly states that the it was pro-Israel groups (Zionists) and even mentioned that the ] was involved. Given that, it's not accurate to simply say "some groups", but to actually label the censorship from those who employed it: pro-Israeli groups. |
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Would make sense to also add a note that before Mariam he was also married to Maire Jaanus from 1962-1967. It is common knowledge that you can find many sources for online. From example here - https://www.theguardian.com/books/1999/sep/11/2 and here - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/edward-said-37181.html ] (]) 18:35, 2 November 2024 (UTC) |
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Side-note, please consider updating the source 115 to point to the archived link: https://web.archive.org/web/20211204061306/https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/05/31/why-did-fresno-state-cancel-search-professorship-named-after-late-edward-said. ] (]) 01:07, 29 December 2021 (UTC) |
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Said's father should be identified as a Palestinian-American. According to the Guardian's obituary "His father Wadie, a Christian, had emigrated to the US before the first world war. He volunteered for service in France and returned to the Middle East as a respectable Protestant businessman - with American citizenship - before making an arranged marriage to the daughter of a Baptist minister from Nazareth.
In Out Of Place (1999), the memoir of his childhood and youth, Said described his father, who called himself William to emphasise his adopted American identity, as overbearing and uncommunicative."
So while Said's father was born in Palestine (during Ottoman times), he emigrated to the US and later gained citizenship during military service. He returned to the region, then under British control, as an American expat to do business. He married a local woman and raised children. But there is no indication Said's father gave up his citizenship in the US despite living and working in Palestine and Egypt.
So he should be identified as Palestinian-American. Compare his identity to that of Shireen Abu Akleh who is identified as "Palestinian-American" because she gained American citizenship during her adulthood but lived most of her life in the Middle East (mostly the Palestinian Territory of the West Bank and also partially in Jordan). If she is Palestinian-American than so is Said's father.
So the sentence "His parents were born in the Ottoman Empire: his mother Hilda Said (née Musa) was half Palestinian and half Lebanese, and was raised in the city of Nazareth; and his father Wadie "William" Said was a Jerusalem-based Palestinian businessman." should instead read "...Wadie "William" Said was a Jerusalem-based Palestinian-American businessman."ItsRainingCatsAndDogsAndMen (talk) 15:43, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
for clarity. But as I don’t yet have 500 edits, I don’t have the requisite privileges to make the edit myself. D A Hosek (talk) 14:15, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
I'd like to replace the profile picture. The profile photo of Prof. Edward Said shown in the article is not really a representative one, in the sense that's not how he's known around the world. It's also a side profile of the professor, and that's just poor. I have better pictures of him. Nzmnsum (talk) 09:54, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
level-4 vital article is rated GA-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
