| Revision as of 05:08, 16 May 2023 editLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,302,385 editsm Archiving 1 discussion(s) to Talk:Alexander Hamilton/Archive 8) (bot← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 21:48, 6 January 2025 edit undoPeaceray (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators95,036 edits →Very minor edit request.: ReplyTag: Reply |
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== Regarding the article's current primary portrait == |
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== Portrait change == |
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The current portrait being used to portray Hamilton at the top of the article is not Hamilton. The portrait was painted by John Trumbull two years after Hamilton's death, meaning that the portrait is merely what Trumbull remembers Hamilton looking like. There are many other contemporary portraits of Hamilton to choose from, some of which were also painted by Trumbull, that provide a much more accurate depiction of Hamilton particularly in his later years. Thank you for your consideration. ] (]) 02:44, 9 May 2023 (UTC) |
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{{ping|Shoreranger|SwensonJ|Baguetteboing|KAYTRA}} I have mentioned you all here because of my editing of the portrait of Alexander Hamilton provided in the infobox. As the conversation on my talk page has gone to a standstill, I am opening a conversation on this article's talk page to discuss this in a more appropriate location than a user talk page and so that people who didn't read my previous edit summary can voice their opinions. I will not change the infobox portrait for now to not cause another edit war, but I firmly stand with the belief that the 1792 portrait is way better than both the 1802 and 1806 portraits. I am open to counter-arguments to this statement. ] ] (<sup>]</sup>) 22:57, 24 January 2023 (UTC) |
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:Agreed. ] (]) 16:09, 6 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:The 1802 portrait is by a huge margin closer to the likeness of the ] bust Hamilton sat for, neither of which bear much resemblance to the 1792 portrait. ] (]) 18:03, 25 January 2023 (UTC) |
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::Also agreed ] (]) 02:34, 19 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::The image is massively cropped and depicts Hamilton out of office. Now I'm not going to change it yet but just be aware that I don't agree with your change (maybe unless you can find the full original portrait). ] (]) 21:38, 25 January 2023 (UTC) |
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:It most certainly is a portrait of Hamilton, and it is not based merely on memory of the artist as explained in the caption. This is a stable item in the article for some time and has been a result of this same consensus discussion in the past. In addition, the proposed portrait while contemporaneous was criticized in its own time and after as a poor representation by both family and others. ] (]) 17:46, 24 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::If what you mean by "out of office" is that the image depicts him after he was no longer the Secretary of the Treasury, I fail to see the significance. If it is a good likeness of him as an adult, what difference does it make? |
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::::You can find an image of the full portrait here, for what it's worth: |
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::: The Trumball portrait was also cropped as I recall. (]) 18:28, 26 January 2023 (UTC) |
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::::I still prefer the portrait that they use at the Treasury website or the portrait that's used on the $10 bill. ] (]) 21:07, 26 January 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::This?: https://home.treasury.gov/about/history/prior-secretaries/alexander-hamilton-1789-1795#main-content ] (]) 21:30, 27 January 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::I meant the one that you replaced. ] (]) 02:50, 28 January 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::Are you okay with this image as a compromise? It's an official portrait of him as Secretary of the Treasury in 1792 and looks fairly close to your 1802 portrait. Most importantly, it looks official (and doesn't depict Hamilton in a depressed state after the death of his son in 1801). ] (]) 01:00, 29 January 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::No, not OK. |
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:::::::For one thing, that is the portrait I edited out in the first place. Secondly, as I have already contended, it i not "fairly close" to the 1802 portrait I substituted it with. Third, while I have provided a ink to another portrait directly from the Treasury website, there is conversely no indication that the portrait you suggest is "official" in any way. Finally, it is speculation as to what "state" Hamilton was in for the portrait I propose, but it is irrelevant anyway. ] (]) 14:10, 30 January 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::::I actually meant the 1806 posthumous image of Hamilton, that is most frequently used when referring to Hamilton. The 1806 image is the one used for Alexander Hamilton articles on the Mount Vernon website, the National Park Service website, and the Department of the Interior website (you can scroll down Google forever after searching for "Alexander Hamilton" without seeing the 1802 portrait without having to try to find it on Google images, even then, only two websites uses that image). The Ron Chernow book on Hamilton, which inspired the play Hamilton, uses the 1806 portrait on its front-cover (I can't even find a book on Hamilton that uses that 1802 image on Google in comparison). As a counter-point, it appears that his portrait on the Treasury article doesn't use that 1806 image, but it is based on the 1806 portrait and based on the opinions on the Talk Page of the Frederick the Great article, using portraits done many years after their deaths is not ideal (the Treasury portrait was done 80 years after Hamilton's death). The 1806 image, however dramatized, was done just two years after Hamilton's death and is in my opinion, artistically most suitable to be the infobox photo, not the 1802 image. Being historically accurate is one thing, but the presentation or suitability of an image on an infobox representing an important historical person as Hamilton is another.<br><br>In comparison, even if your portrait is the most "accurate" portrait, your portrait is square (while the full sized one is low-res). The artist, Ezra Miller, is largely unknown compared to the more famous Turnbull (Miller has a very distinctive style but it seems as if he uses the same pose over and over in his paintings). Your portrait depicts Hamilton ten years after leaving office and in the midst of depression following the death of his eldest son in a duel (according to on Facebook, "The portrait captured a pensive and somber Hamilton who was still mourning the death of his eldest son, Philip, who was killed in a duel in 1801 at age nineteen."), so I don't see how this is the most "realistic portrait", if you don't give any historical evidence. The 1806 portrait is also exclusively used on many foreign language Wiki articles of Hamilton (and on this page prior to the Misplaced Pages phenomenon of everybody seemingly wanting to get a piece of the pie in editing Misplaced Pages infobox photos since the pandemic).<br><br>If this debate continues to go nowhere, then I'll have to request a third opinion. ] (]) 04:19, 31 January 2023 (UTC) |
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== What's the point of quoting Paul Johnson? == |
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:The 1806 Trumball portrait would be fine, as found on the Naitonal Portrait Gallery webpage here: https://npg.si.edu/object/npg_NPG.79.216?destination=portraits ] (]) 18:12, 31 January 2023 (UTC) |
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:: Okay. ] (]) 23:53, 1 February 2023 (UTC) |
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In the intro, too... just calling him a genius is insubstantial, without even him backing it up, and, also, coming after AH agreeing to his own demise makes 'genius' sound bizarre... I think it should be removed, possibly to some other section with quotes about AH, as it seems extraneous (non-neutral as well, although quotes are treated differently), and repetitive too (a lot of insubstantial 'geniuses' in the intro, makes Paul Johnson sound like some cultish fan...) ] (]) 03:08, 30 November 2024 (UTC) |
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== Short description == |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 6 December 2024 == |
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Hi @], you reverted my edit to the short description by saying there was consensus made on the talk page to include the years of birth/death in the short description. I can't find the consensus you're talking about in the archives. Could you link me to that discussion? ]<sup>]]</sup> 17:58, 7 April 2023 (UTC) |
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== Regarding the article's current primary portrait == |
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I suggest you either delete: "The consensus of mainstream scholars and historians who have addressed the underlying question of whether Lavien was Jewish, such as Ron Chernow, is that the assertion is not credible." OR substitute with something like: "Mainstream scholars are divided on the question of The foregoing statement is not accurate. I wrote ''The Jewish World of Alexander Hamilton'', which is cited in the notes and which argues that there is a probabilistic case that Hamilton and Lavien had a Jewish identity. Numerous leading scholars have endorsed the book's findings. Professor Jonathan Sarna, the world's leading authority on American Jewish history, described the research as "remarkable." Professor Stephen Knott, formerly of the University of Virginia, described it as "truly a pathbreaking work." Professor Stephen Whitfield, of Brandeis University, described it as "ingenious." Pulitzer Prize winning scholar and Harvard professor Annette Gordon Reed described it as “provocative and intriguing.” The book was published by Princeton University Press and won the Journal of the American Revolution Book-of-the-Year Award. It is simply not accurate for Misplaced Pages to dismiss the idea as a fringe theory. To be sure, it would be inaccurate to say there's now consensus that Hamilton likely was Jewish. But it is equally inaccurate to say that there's consensus he was not. The basis for the foregoing statement in Misplaced Pages is a short passage in Chernow's book. But Chernow made no special study of the topic whereas I dedicated an entire peer-reviewed book to it. It makes little sense to imply or suggest that his book refutes my findings when Chernow's book was written nearly twenty years earlier and thus did not engage my findings nor look at the reams of evidence from the Caribbean that I surfaced. ] (]) 01:54, 6 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:{{not done}}:<!-- Template:ESp --> The article already acknowledges your book. Without having read your book, this sounds to me like you want your view to be more prominently considered without any other sources. ] (]) 13:51, 26 December 2024 (UTC) |
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The current portrait being used to portray Hamilton at the top of the article is not Hamilton. The portrait was painted by John Trumbull two years after Hamilton's death, meaning that the portrait is merely what Trumbull remembers Hamilton looking like. There are many other contemporary portraits of Hamilton to choose from, some of which were also painted by Trumbull, that provide a much more accurate depiction of Hamilton particularly in his later years. Thank you for your consideration. ] (]) 02:44, 9 May 2023 (UTC) |
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::{{u|Ultraodan}}, the IP makes a good point in that a full on-topic peer-reviewed book written decades after another cited work should change a word or two in the sentence which includes "...not credible". The IP should list some of their best sources from the book to strengthen the case for the requested change, and/or consider becoming a Misplaced Pages editor themselves to both learn and climb the ropes here. Thanks. ] (]) 14:08, 26 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::hey can you please respond on ]. @] wanna get this over with ] (]) 14:09, 26 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::The only relevance your comment has to this discussion is that Jesus was Jewish, otherwise please read ], thanks. ] (]) 14:11, 26 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::how does jesus being jewish have anything to do with this alexander hamilton discussion, and i need consensus just say yes or no to the image i linked please. they don't me to get consensus then ghost me for no apparent reason. i know WP:CIVILITY but i've been ignored for hours now and i'm fed up. please just go to the jesus talk page so we can finish off the discussion. remsense left and i don't know what to do. ] (]) 14:24, 26 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::{{u|HumansRightsIsCool}}, it doesn't, and neither does your jumping into this discussion to mention another. Nobody is ghosting you, Misplaced Pages conversations often go on for weeks, it's the lay of the land here. It's also Wikipolite to ping others editors when mentioning them by name ({{u|Remsense}}), even in a tangential way. Since you came here maybe you can comment on this interesting issue. An IP claiming to be an author of a prize-winning book is concerned that their work and its findings are being ignored within the page wording as well as that wording implying that this author's conclusions are not credible. In my opinion not enough authors challenge Misplaced Pages wording in such a way, and to do so is commendable as regards defense of their research subject and to care enough that Misplaced Pages gets it right. I hope that they return and continue this defense. ] (]) 15:11, 26 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== Very minor edit request. == |
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Since this topic is semi-protected, I'm not capable of doing it myself. I would appreciate it if someone could link Hercules Mulligan, Revolutionary War/Early Military Career - second paragraph, to his corresponding article. Thanks. ] (]) 16:33, 6 January 2025 (UTC) |
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== Second Armed League of Neutrality and the Jay Treaty == |
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:{{done}} ] (]) 21:48, 6 January 2025 (UTC) |
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This article states that Hamilton revealed to the British the American decision not to join the second league of armed neutrality and that this weakened Jay's hand in dealing with the British. Since the Jay treaty was negotiated in 1794 and the second league of armed neutrality did not come about until 1800, the article cannot possibly be correct. Please make the necessary corrections. ] (]) 03:27, 16 May 2023 (UTC) |
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The current portrait being used to portray Hamilton at the top of the article is not Hamilton. The portrait was painted by John Trumbull two years after Hamilton's death, meaning that the portrait is merely what Trumbull remembers Hamilton looking like. There are many other contemporary portraits of Hamilton to choose from, some of which were also painted by Trumbull, that provide a much more accurate depiction of Hamilton particularly in his later years. Thank you for your consideration. UnbearableIsBad (talk) 02:44, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
In the intro, too... just calling him a genius is insubstantial, without even him backing it up, and, also, coming after AH agreeing to his own demise makes 'genius' sound bizarre... I think it should be removed, possibly to some other section with quotes about AH, as it seems extraneous (non-neutral as well, although quotes are treated differently), and repetitive too (a lot of insubstantial 'geniuses' in the intro, makes Paul Johnson sound like some cultish fan...) 92.18.124.187 (talk) 03:08, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
I suggest you either delete: "The consensus of mainstream scholars and historians who have addressed the underlying question of whether Lavien was Jewish, such as Ron Chernow, is that the assertion is not credible." OR substitute with something like: "Mainstream scholars are divided on the question of The foregoing statement is not accurate. I wrote The Jewish World of Alexander Hamilton, which is cited in the notes and which argues that there is a probabilistic case that Hamilton and Lavien had a Jewish identity. Numerous leading scholars have endorsed the book's findings. Professor Jonathan Sarna, the world's leading authority on American Jewish history, described the research as "remarkable." Professor Stephen Knott, formerly of the University of Virginia, described it as "truly a pathbreaking work." Professor Stephen Whitfield, of Brandeis University, described it as "ingenious." Pulitzer Prize winning scholar and Harvard professor Annette Gordon Reed described it as “provocative and intriguing.” The book was published by Princeton University Press and won the Journal of the American Revolution Book-of-the-Year Award. It is simply not accurate for Misplaced Pages to dismiss the idea as a fringe theory. To be sure, it would be inaccurate to say there's now consensus that Hamilton likely was Jewish. But it is equally inaccurate to say that there's consensus he was not. The basis for the foregoing statement in Misplaced Pages is a short passage in Chernow's book. But Chernow made no special study of the topic whereas I dedicated an entire peer-reviewed book to it. It makes little sense to imply or suggest that his book refutes my findings when Chernow's book was written nearly twenty years earlier and thus did not engage my findings nor look at the reams of evidence from the Caribbean that I surfaced. 2600:8800:1B02:F300:81F9:253:808E:893C (talk) 01:54, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
Since this topic is semi-protected, I'm not capable of doing it myself. I would appreciate it if someone could link Hercules Mulligan, Revolutionary War/Early Military Career - second paragraph, to his corresponding article. Thanks. BruceHoudini (talk) 16:33, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
level-4 vital article is rated GA-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
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Not done: The article already acknowledges your book. Without having read your book, this sounds to me like you want your view to be more prominently considered without any other sources. Ultraodan (talk) 13:51, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
Done