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== June 2023 ==
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{{ping|Fowler&fowler}} Shouldn't we include the phrase ''Indian-administered'' somewhere in the lead since we have ] written there? - ] (]) 10:56, 10 June 2023 (UTC)


:Yes. I'll take a look. Thanks. ]] 11:42, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
The picture shown on this article as kashmiris is not suitable. Clearly these people are looking non-Koshur speaking people whereas the article is about koshur speaking kashmiris.


== September 2023 ==
== "related groups" info removed from infobox ==
== Why is a group photo of prostitutes of ambiguous origins from 19th century is being shown as "representative" of Kashmiris ==


Why is a group photo of ambiguous origin prostitutes (or Nautch girls) in 19th century Srinagar are being shown as an example of "Kashmiris". These prostitutes were always of cosmopolitan origins from various regions of South Asia and were related to prostitutes found in neighboring kingdoms like Punjab, Delhi and Lucknow etc. These were never of any kind of pure origin. Only farmers of Kashmir valley living in the villages of Kashmir valley since centuries are the true representative of the ethnicity called "Kashmiris".
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{tl|Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the ''']'''. ] 23:42, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
:Thanks for leaving a note. I don't think it should be a problem. ] 05:06, 19 May 2007 (UTC)


== January 2024 ==
Ethnic Kashmiris look very different compared to the normal populous of India. They have light skin, hair color ranges from red to light brown and have eye colors ranging from blue to brown. Gujjars and ] found towards the south in Jammu are of darker skin tone and resemble their ] neighbors whilst the Ladakhis of the North East resemble their Tibetan neighbors.


Christianity should be added as a religious 'Minority' following Sikhism in the list. https://www.census2011.co.in/data/religion/state/1-jammu-and-kashmir.html
The reason why I removed the above extract was because I deemed it irrelevant; this article is not a comparison of two ethnic groups. Also, no reference has been provided.


I don't know how to make edits and would appreciate someone who does know how to edit, to please do so. ] (]) 14:32, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
I have removed certain aspects because, being a student of the discipline of History, I find it extremely insensitive to reach theories and conclusions without confirming the people involved. In this issue in particular, I felt that the Kashmiris from the western section of Kashmir- known as Azad Kashmir would not agree to the least with some of the mumble jumble that recent theorists have conjured together, in somewhat a discriminative way. It would help to ask the Azad Kashmir peoples to tell us a little about their culture and history; they are a people of their own identity, they know better about their history than we do, ratherthan make up what we'd like to hear or makes sense to us, you cannot let you imagination loose upon such subjects and allow it to get the better of oneself.


== Kashmir history == == Census 2011 ==


{{ping|C1MM}} Hi, could you correct the 2011 census data according to the new administrative union territory. Thanks. - ] (]) 13:53, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
The western part of Kashmir, known as Azad Kashmir was only part of kashmir for 100 years, Jammu for just over 150, ladakh, Baltistan and Gilgit Agency also for over 150 years. When talking about 'Kashmiri people' most in my opinion refer to 'ethnic kashmiris' who ONLY occupy the Valley of Kashmir (Indian occupied). Historically Kashmir has only been the Kashmir Valley (for 2000+ years). To my understanding they are culturaly/linguistically/geneticaly different to the rest and are the only 'ethnic kashmiris'. I propose that this article focus more on them as they are the ones who have been 'Kashmiri' for over 2000 years and not the Ladakhis,Baltis,Mirpuris,Azad kashmiris. It has been referenced that the Azad kashmiri people are mainly Punjabi and Gujjar/Pahari which are also considered as castes of Punjabi. Whereas the kashmiris of the Valley are very distintcly different. The history of the Azad kashmiris is visible in their linguists/cultural heritage, and it has a very large affinity to Punjabis. So as the Human rights watch reference states, they are Punjabi peoples who have a very rich history seperate to that of the Kashmiris in the Valley.

== Difference between 'Ethnicity' and 'Nationality' ==

I think the problem here is that people from the current day 'Azad kashmir' refer to them as Kashmiris as an ethnicity which they are not. They are Kashmiri only by citizenship, but as the state of Kashmir does not exist it should not be applied to them. The people from the Valley however are ethnic kashmiris, with kashmiri being their identity. So perhaps they feel threatened by the highjacking of their identity by Punjabis of Azad Kashmir who falsely claim Kashmiri heritage. The land known as Azad Kashmir was only made part of Kashmir after the Treaty of Amritsar was signed.

== Difference between intellectuals and witch doctors==

I am an ethnic Kashmiri from the Vale of Kashmir, speaking Koshur and I think you are being prejudiced, there has always been a link with our fellow Kashmiris, who speak Pahari and are not Punjabi, they speak differently. I don't know much about anthropology, but you cannot say whatever may be the case I know they're not Punjabi, Its like saying the Scots are English, even though they both speak English, yet the Azad Kashmir people speak Pahari and the Punjabis speak Punjabi/Potohari. I sometimes wonder if these people with weird theories about the fellow Kashmiris in Azad Kashmir still think that the world is flat too. Some theories say Koshur is indo-Aryan anyway http://www.koshur.org/ , just like the Kasmiris in Azad Kashmir speak Pahari which is an Indo Aryan language too. Please research further with proper resources, I want us to be clear.

== Re. Difference between intellectuals and witch doctors==

I think this article needs to be better set out. Kashmiri people consist of Gujjars/Pahari people from the Poonch district, ethnic kashmiris from the Valley and small communities in Jammu, the Dogras of Jammu, the Mirpuris of Azad Kashmir, Sudhuns of Muzafrabad, Ladakhis, Baltistani people, Gilgit agency people. It would probably be better if all these peoples had their own sub headings, that is if we are to talk about people who used to live in the former Princely state of Kashmir.

Although it is undecided whether koshur is Indo-Aryan or not, a language classification can not be used to determine ethnicity. Bengali, Gujarati, Punjabi are all Indo-Aryan languages, but are very different people. Also some classify Pahari as a dialect of Punjabi, but again a language can not be used to determine ethnicity.

More resources are contributors are needed.

== Did Alexander go to Azad Kashmir? ==
I have come to realise that at around 50 percent of the people I know from Azad Kashmir, tend to be very European looking ( lighter eyes/hair), especially those from Mirpur... is it due to the Greek influence, or some other influence? Also did Alexander reach the other side of Kashmir, I also speak Koshur and wanted to know is there any outside influence upon our language, e.g from any past empires?

I would be very grateful if you could answer this.

== Dardic contest ==

While looking through , I can't see why describing Kashmiri as "Dardic" is such a problem. You (IP editor) have claimed that it should say "Aryan" instead, and I was guessing that by "Aryan" you meant something like "Indo-Aryan" since that use of "Aryan" would not be correct. Anyway, the very source that ''you provided'' describes "Dardic" and an Indo-Aryan language, so I have ''no idea'' what the problem is here. ] 17:07, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

== RE: Did Alexander go to Pakistan-Administered Kashmir (Azad Kashmir)? ==
Pakistan Administerd Kashmir during the time of Alexander the Great was not a Part of Kashmir (Kashmira), it come under Gandhara. Due to it's location, Kashmir was relatively safe from invasions until the Moguls. There were however recorded mass migrations into the Kashmir valley from Khorasan, Tajikistan and other parts of Central Asia which brought the likes of Saint Bulbul Shah a Turkic Sufi saint into Kashmir, he is the first Saint of the Kashmir valley and brought Islam into Kashmir.

The People of Pakistan Administered Kashmir vary, the southern Mirpur region is very flat and hot and the people are ethnically the same as the Jammuites of Jammu in Indian Administered Kashmir. Whilst the Northern Neelum Valley people are more akin to the Balti and Kashmiri People due to the close proximity, the very high altitude and alpine climate. As far as looks and complexion goes, I'll quote from the Jammu & Kashmir state website;

'''Valley Kashmiris'''

"Most of the people in the valley are fair-complexioned, with light brown hair, blue or grey eyes, chiseled features and fine physique. There are also people with a whitish complexion, black almond eyes and black hair. The Kashmiris, on the whole are non-aggressive and temperate in nature and very God-fearing. They have been regarded as non-martial in character."

'''Gujjars'''

"The hill people of Kashmir, called Gujjars, mostly herdsmen by occupation, are found in most parts of Jammu and Kashmir. They are said to be Rajputs who had migrated from Rajasthan and adopted the Muslim faith. They are tall and well-built, with a prominently Jewish cast of features. Their dialect, Gujari is now identified as a form of a Rajasthani. They raise sheep and cattle"

'''Dogras'''

"The Dogra Rajputs, who have traditionally made the Army their profession are not of big build, their average height being 5'4" (160 cm). The men's complexion is light brown, the women's lighter still."

Koshur is only spoken in the central Valley of Kashmir and its immediate surrounding areas, it is originally a Dardic language and not of Indo-Aryan decent, but has become predominantly Indo-Aryan. The original inhabitants of the Kashmir valley were Dards speaking a Dardic language slightly influenced by Sanskrit, it was then influenced by two Indo-Aryan languages; Sindhi and Punjabi followed by very heavy influence from Persian from 1300 onwards due to the migrations into the valley.

Kashmiris are not Indo-Aryan by origin, but are Dardic by origin. Tribes such as the Dhars are said to have been in the Kashmir valley from before any known mass migrations into the regeon. There have been migrations of Punjabis/Sindhis who are Indo-Aryan people into the valley, but there have been more massive recent migrations of Persian people (Pashtuns and others) into the valley too, but that does not make the Kashmiri people Persian just as Punjabi/sindhi influence does not make them Indo-Aryan.

Latest revision as of 22:01, 8 January 2025

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June 2023

@Fowler&fowler: Shouldn't we include the phrase Indian-administered somewhere in the lead since we have Kashmir Valley written there? - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 10:56, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes. I'll take a look. Thanks. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:42, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

September 2023

Why is a group photo of prostitutes of ambiguous origins from 19th century is being shown as "representative" of Kashmiris

Why is a group photo of ambiguous origin prostitutes (or Nautch girls) in 19th century Srinagar are being shown as an example of "Kashmiris". These prostitutes were always of cosmopolitan origins from various regions of South Asia and were related to prostitutes found in neighboring kingdoms like Punjab, Delhi and Lucknow etc. These were never of any kind of pure origin. Only farmers of Kashmir valley living in the villages of Kashmir valley since centuries are the true representative of the ethnicity called "Kashmiris".

January 2024

Christianity should be added as a religious 'Minority' following Sikhism in the list. https://www.census2011.co.in/data/religion/state/1-jammu-and-kashmir.html

I don't know how to make edits and would appreciate someone who does know how to edit, to please do so. Teresa Gill (talk) 14:32, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Census 2011

@C1MM: Hi, could you correct the 2011 census data according to the new administrative union territory. Thanks. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 13:53, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

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