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== Architects' Nagas == == June 2023 ==


{{ping|Fowler&fowler}} Shouldn't we include the phrase ''Indian-administered'' somewhere in the lead since we have ] written there? - ] (]) 10:56, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
This is from {{citation |last=Fergusson |first=James |authorlink=James Fergusson (architect) |title=Tree and serpent Worship, or illustrations of mythology and art in India |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=M5FDAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA46 |year=1868 |publisher=Allen|pp=46-47}}
{{talkquote|''It is not, however, only in the valley that our Chinese traveller (]) repeats the Hindu legends about serpents and their power, but at every stage of his journey from Cabul to Cashmere, he everywhere finds some spot where a dragon king or Naga Raja resided, and played an important part in the legendary history of the land.'' These legends, as might be expected, were found in the seventh century very much altered from their more primitive forms, but they are interesting, in the first place, as showing how ''essentially the north-west corner of India was at one time the seat of Serpent Worship, and also, in what manner it was eventually—except perhaps in Cashmere—amalgamated with Buddhism.'' (p.46)}}


:Yes. I'll take a look. Thanks. ]] 11:42, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
{{talkquote|These accounts by native authorities are fully confirmed by such scanty notices as we glean from classical authorities; ''] tells us that two ambassadors sent to the king of Cashmere by Alexander, brought back news that the king of the country cherished two large serpents of fabulous dimensions.'' Maximinius of Tyre tells us, that when Alexander entered India, Taxilus (King of Taxila) showed him a serpent of enormous size which he nourished with great care and revered as the image of the god whom the Greek writers, from the similitude of his attributes, called Dionysus or Bacchus. (p.47)}}


== September 2023 ==
{{talkquote|The latest authority we have, is that of ], who tells us that in the reign Of Akbar (1556—1605) there were in Cashmere 45 places dedicated to the worship of Siva, 64 to Vishou, 3 to Brahma, and 22 to Durga, but there were 700 places in the valley where there were carved images of snakes which the inhabitants worshipped. (p.47)}}
== Why is a group photo of prostitutes of ambiguous origins from 19th century is being shown as "representative" of Kashmiris ==


Why is a group photo of ambiguous origin prostitutes (or Nautch girls) in 19th century Srinagar are being shown as an example of "Kashmiris". These prostitutes were always of cosmopolitan origins from various regions of South Asia and were related to prostitutes found in neighboring kingdoms like Punjab, Delhi and Lucknow etc. These were never of any kind of pure origin. Only farmers of Kashmir valley living in the villages of Kashmir valley since centuries are the true representative of the ethnicity called "Kashmiris".
{{talkquote|''All this is fully confirmed by the architecture of the valley; with very few exceptions, all the ancient temples of Cashmere seem to have been devoted to Serpent Worship.'' They stand in square courts which were capable of being flooded and were crossed by light bridges of stone, some of which still remain. Even at the present day some of these temples are unapproachable without wading, in consequence of the water which surrounds them, and all might be rendered so by a slight repair to their waterworks. There are, of course, no images in the sanctuaries which long prevented antiquaries from perceiving the form of faith to which they were dedicated. But where the deity is a living god and mortal, when he and his worshippers pay the debt of nature, they leave no material trace to recall the memory of their past existence. (p.47)}}


== January 2024 ==
-- ] (]) 10:14, 13 July 2018 (UTC)


Christianity should be added as a religious 'Minority' following Sikhism in the list. https://www.census2011.co.in/data/religion/state/1-jammu-and-kashmir.html
== Recent Reverts ==


I don't know how to make edits and would appreciate someone who does know how to edit, to please do so. ] (]) 14:32, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
Hi ], thanks for your desire to improve the article on ]. I noticed that you restored a source published by "Cambridge Scholars Publishing", whose reliability was questioned at ]. I information cited to that reference with a more reliable one. Would you mind explaining why you wish to retain the former? I look forward to hearing from you. With regards, ]<sup>]</sup> 06:12, 23 December 2018 (UTC)


== Census 2011 ==
:{{yo|Anupam}} apologies for the messy editing. This issue has been discussesd before extensively; see ]. I wrote a propsal, which also treated the Nagas and Pisachas, placing them in context. The sentence you added,
:{{talkquote|Archaeological findings postulate that the earliest inhabitants of the Kashmir Valley were the Nagas and Pisachas.<ref>{{cite book|title=Settlement Pattern in Relation to Climatic Changes in Kashmir|page=49|author=S. L. Shali|publisher=Om Publications|year=2001|isbn=9788186867525|quote=By the minute study of the description duly supported by the archaeological findings, it is now conceived that the other tribe, i.e. Pishachas inhabited the valley soon after the desiccation of the lake water. Nagas were brought into the valley to fight the contemptuous Pishachas who had occupied a sizeable portion of the valley over the mountains.}}</ref>}}
<br>
{{reflist-talk}}


⚫ {{ping|C1MM}} Hi, could you correct the 2011 census data according to the new administrative union territory. Thanks. - ] (]) 13:53, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
:seems to be too simple in that respect. Your source also says that the accpounts about Nagas and Pischachas are largely legendary; if you quote Shali, you'll have to quote that part too. I'd still prefer my extended proposal, but alas, any serious change to the Origins-sections seems to be impossible... ] -] 07:22, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

::Thank you for your reply. I actually agree with your edit ] the statement with respect to Nagas and Pisachas. My main contention was your restoration of content sourced to a single book by "Cambridge Scholars Publishing". What are your thoughts on that? I hope this helps. With regards, ]<sup>]</sup> 07:41, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

:::I have no particular thoughts on CSP. Most sources on this tpic are questionable, so the best approach seems to be to balance all of them, with attribution and proper quotes. Otherwise, they'll be merely used for pov-pushing. But the status-quo on this section makes it impossible to do this... ] -] 07:57, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

::::In my edit, you will have noted that I removed the content sourced to "Cambridge Scholars Publishing" per ]. The that I supplanted it with is buttressed by ], an academic press; there are scholarly sources on this topic available and we should use them, I think. I hope this helps. Respectfully, ]<sup>]</sup> 08:10, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

:::::{{yo|Kautilya3}} what do you think? ] -] 09:20, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

::::::Talk page archives also show that there has been no agreed version for the section since it has been always disputed. I also agree that everything is disputed here and some of the mentioned hypothesis (Jewish and Middle Eastern origins) are completely rejected by every single scholar. You had removed the entire section for this very same reason.  I would support blanking that section entirely as alternative. ] (]) 10:36, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
{{od}}
I think it is fine to get rid of the ] section. It is all mythology, either old mythology or new mythology.

Personally, I find Parpola's ] of Indo-Aryan migrations as the most satisfying model in explaining all the observed facts. According to it, a first group of Indo-Aryans migrated to the subcontinent as early as 2000 BCE, probably coming through the Hindu Kush mountains, and a second wave of Rigvedic Indo-Aryans came around 1500 BCE via ]. The second wave people probably called the first wave people by names such as "Nagas" and "Pishachas" due to their distinctive customs. But over time, these distinctions disappeared. I don't think the history of Kashmir would have been much different from that of the neighbouring ]. The Buddhist sources club the two together as ''Gandhara–Kashmira''. No special "Origins" need to be proposed for the Kashmiris. -- ] (]) 14:29, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
⚫ :Who were those first Indo-Aryans? - ] (]) 15:04, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

::I have no objections to removing the section as the current version is largely sourced to a reference that fails ]. Thanks, ]<sup>]</sup> 06:29, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

== Dogra regime ==

{{U|Dilpa kaur}}, I am not sure why you needed to move Ian Talbot to the opening, . The Talbot and Singh book that you cite is on the Partition of India, and neither author is a specialist in Kashmir history. Moreover, Chitralekha Zutshi,<ref>{{citation |last=Zutshi |first=Chitralekha |title=Languages of Belonging: Islam, Regional Identity, and the Making of Kashmir |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=H7Ptp4Iod8EC&pg=PA292 |year=2004 |publisher=C. Hurst & Co. Publishers |ISBN=978-1-85065-700-2}}</ref> who does specialise in Kashmir history, has much to say about these matters in her Chapter 2. For instance, note:
{{talkquote|In the case of the Kashmir Valley, the office holders were drawn from the ranks of the Hindu clerical caste of Kashmiri Pandits, and a few prominent Kashmiri Muslim Sayyid and Pir families.}}
{{talkquote|It is important to differentiate between the ranks of the bureaucracy, and the Pandit community in general, since the greatest beneficiaries of the system were the wazir-wazarats and the tehsildars. The lower ranks of the bureaucracy, including the patwaris, kardars and shakdars, most likely did not benefit as much from the system as British representations would have one believe. It is important to differentiate between the ranks of the bureaucracy, and the Pandit community in general, since the greatest beneficiaries of the system were the wazir-wazarats and the tehsildars. The lower ranks of the bureaucracy, including the patwaris, kardars and shakdars, most likely did not benefit as much from the system as British representations would have one believe.}}
The simplistic picture of Muslim masses being oppressed by Hindu elites drawn by the British commentators is a mirror image of the Hindu masses oppressed by Muslim elites that they drew in the rest of India. These were "familiar colonial tropes" as Barbara Metcalf has pointed out elsewhere.<ref>{{citation |title=Islam in South Asia in Practice |editor-first=Barbara D. |editor-last=Metcalf |publisher=Princeton University Press |year=2009 |ISBN=1400831385}}</ref> -- ] (]) 08:38, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}}

:The history of that text on this article goes back to NadirAli's referral to Fowler&fowler's explanation to you. Perhaps if {{ping|Fowler&fowler}} has more time he can join us to re-explain to you the importance of this point, and all the other stuff about scholarly surveys etc. The Hindu elite's treatment of Kashmiri Muslims and that treatment's centrality to the Dogra Hindu state is not even a matter of scholarly dispute. As Fowler&fowler has pointed, there is a consensus on it. I am not allowed to debate this as if on a forum. ] (]) 09:23, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
:: {{ping|Dilpa kaur}} I am afraid you haven't addressed any of the points I have raised. So let me repeat them:
::* The Talbot and Singh book that you cite is on the Partition of India, and neither author is a specialist in Kashmir history.
::* Chitralekha Zutshi, who does specialise in Kashmir history, has much to say about these matters in her Chapter 2.
::* These were "familiar colonial tropes" as Barbara Metcalf has pointed out elsewhere.
:: How do you respond to these points? -- ] (]) 22:42, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
:::*That is incorrect. Read the blurb: "this book explores...the ongoing conflict over contested sites such as Jammu and Kashmir." Refer also to the introduction, pp. 5-6. Our ] expert {{U|Fowler&fowler}} has used Talbot & Singh's survey to write the plain fact of the Hindu elite exploiting Kashmiri Muslim peasants. These scholarly surveys show the scholarly consensus. This page will follow that consensus and the ] article.
:::*Let us see what ] author of the award winning ''Hindu Rulers, Muslim Subjects'' has to say.
::::{{talkquote|In fact such incontestable control over the Hindu religious domain allowed the Dogras to ride roughshod over the interests and rights of the vast majority of their Muslim majority subjects<ref>{{cite book|author=Mridu Rai|title=Hindu Rulers, Muslim Subjects: Islam, Rights, and the History of Kashmir|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=qTHTI-Eus8kC|year=2004|publisher=C. Hurst & Co. Publishers|isbn=978-1-85065-661-6|page=13}}</ref>}}
::::What Zutshi does is add a bit more nuance to the accepted narrative (i.e. "not all Hindus"). Her work is a continuum, this is not a case of contradiction or dichotomy.
:::*The "colonial tropes" Metcalf refers to is a quote from Sir Henry Elliott about the construction of narratives that Muslims oppressed Hindus. We can't, per ], extrapolate this, to include the accepted and factual vice-versa instances of Hindu monarchies exploiting Muslims, in the same category as the colonial tropes. ] (]) 11:19, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
::::: I am afraid you are not making any sense.
:::::* The "ongoing conflict" in the book blurb is referring to the conflict at the ''time of its publication'', not the 100 years of Dogra regime.
:::::* Mridu Rai's POV is clearly advertised in the title of her book itself.
:::::* Zutshi is not adding a "nuance". She has pointed out clearly that there was an "important Muslim element" in the ruling regime. It wasn't just "Hindu elite". What she has refrained from doing, but you are bent on doing, is to ''communalise'' what is evidently a feudal exploitation.
::::: The text that was there before your edit wasn't any complimentary to the Dogra regime. But your edit is aimed at hanging the "Hindu elite" to the exclusion of everything else. The text of the article itself shows that the Sikh regime and the Afghan regime that preceded it were also brutal to the Kashmiri peasants. "From the frying pan to the fire", is the title of a book by a Kashmiri, to describe the transition from the Afghan rule to the Sikh rule. And as for the Dogra rule, Ravinderjit Kaur frankly admits:
::::: {{talkquote|''Gulab Singh did not interfere with the traditional social and economic organization of the State, and almost perfected the political institution of personal rule he had inherited from his predecessors, the Sikhs''. In the Kashmir province, Gulab Singh faced many problems of pacification and administration. There was no effective administrative organization in the province which had been ravaged by ''hundreds of years of misrule and oppression''.{{sfn|Kaur, Political Awakening in Kashmir|1996|p=3}}}}
:::::* As for the colonial tropes, let me give you the statistics provided by Ian Copland. In Kashmir he says, Muslims were 70% of the population, they held only 22% of the gazetted appointments and 25% places in the army. In comparison, in Bhopal, he says the Muslims comprised a "small fraction" of the population (let us say 15%), but they had 90% of the gazetted appointments, all the top jobs in the police force, and all but one cabinet post. So, things were equally bad you might think. But for the colonial government, Bhopal was a {{tq|well-managed in which ''there was no preferential treatment 'of one community at the expense of the other'.''}}{{sfn|Copland, State, Community and Neighbourhood|2005|p=61}} Kashmir, on the other hand, was hell on earth.
::::: So your edit is not exhibiting any more scholarly consensus that the version that was there earlier. But it is ''distorting'' it. -- ] (]) 00:52, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}}

== Copy-vios?... ==

{{yo|Diannaa}} could you take a look at ? It seems to me that this editor does not understand what a copy-vio is. ] -] 11:36, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
:{{User|Diannaa}} is well aware that adding lengthy quotes is considered a copyright violation, per ]. This situation is not acceptable for the legal safety of Misplaced Pages.] (]) 11:56, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
::Well, I have to admit, I see your point in this particular case. Nevertheless, I suggest you discuss such matters with experienced editors before jumping to conclusions. ] -] 11:59, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 22:01, 8 January 2025

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June 2023

@Fowler&fowler: Shouldn't we include the phrase Indian-administered somewhere in the lead since we have Kashmir Valley written there? - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 10:56, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes. I'll take a look. Thanks. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:42, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

September 2023

Why is a group photo of prostitutes of ambiguous origins from 19th century is being shown as "representative" of Kashmiris

Why is a group photo of ambiguous origin prostitutes (or Nautch girls) in 19th century Srinagar are being shown as an example of "Kashmiris". These prostitutes were always of cosmopolitan origins from various regions of South Asia and were related to prostitutes found in neighboring kingdoms like Punjab, Delhi and Lucknow etc. These were never of any kind of pure origin. Only farmers of Kashmir valley living in the villages of Kashmir valley since centuries are the true representative of the ethnicity called "Kashmiris".

January 2024

Christianity should be added as a religious 'Minority' following Sikhism in the list. https://www.census2011.co.in/data/religion/state/1-jammu-and-kashmir.html

I don't know how to make edits and would appreciate someone who does know how to edit, to please do so. Teresa Gill (talk) 14:32, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Census 2011

@C1MM: Hi, could you correct the 2011 census data according to the new administrative union territory. Thanks. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 13:53, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

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