| Revision as of 20:24, 15 November 2024 editPenultimate supper (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users1,249 edits →RFK Jr.: rephrasingTag: 2017 wikitext editor← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 10:06, 9 January 2025 edit undoNil Einne (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers73,121 edits →Opposition: ReplyTag: Reply |
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I notice that the article lists 1990 as the end date for water fluoridation in East Germany. Was that date due merely to the termination of the DDR as a legal entity upon unification with the BRD; was it due to the DDR's adoption, upon unification, of the BRD policy of non-fluoridation; or did the DDR abandon fluoridation pre-unification, and if the last, did it do so under the influence of the USSR, which abandoned fluoridation in the same year? |
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I notice that the article lists 1990 as the end date for water fluoridation in East Germany. Was that date due merely to the termination of the DDR as a legal entity upon unification with the BRD; was it due to the DDR's adoption, upon unification, of the BRD policy of non-fluoridation; or did the DDR abandon fluoridation pre-unification, and if the last, did it do so under the influence of the USSR, which abandoned fluoridation in the same year? |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 31 January 2024 == |
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{{edit semi-protected|Water fluoridation controversy|answered=yes}} |
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Removal of the recent edit which adds the text "now-debunked". |
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The text has been added to the article is not be beneficial, for a controversial topic like this adding text like "now-debunked" is not helpful and can inflame the topic. |
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The suggested text lacks proper citations or references to reputable sources. In Misplaced Pages, verifiability and reliable sourcing are essential. Without credible sources to support the claims made in the text. |
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The article already provides historical context by mentioning the conspiracy theories from the 1950s and 1960s, which have been discredited. |
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The topic of water fluoridation is controversial, and any additions to the article should be handled with care. Adding potentially controversial statements without solid references is not ideal. If this is to remain, I belive a more considered edit should be performed to highlight this point, but for now I belive the edit should be reverted. |
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Opposition to fluoridation has existed since its initiation in the 1940s.<ref name=Martin1989 /> During the 1950s and 1960s, now-debunked ] claimed that fluoridation was a ] plot to undermine American public health.<ref name="Johnston">{{cite book | vauthors = Johnston RD | title = The Politics of Healing | url = https://archive.org/details/politicshealingh00john | url-access = limited | publisher = Routledge | year = 2004 | isbn = 978-0-415-93339-1| page = }}</ref> In recent years, water fluoridation has become a prevalent health and political issue in many countries, resulting in some countries and communities discontinuing its use while others have expanded it. |
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Original text bellow: |
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Opposition to fluoridation has existed since its initiation in the 1940s.<ref name=Martin1989 /> During the 1950s and 1960s, ] claimed that fluoridation was a ] plot to undermine American public health.<ref name="Johnston">{{cite book | vauthors = Johnston RD | title = The Politics of Healing | url = https://archive.org/details/politicshealingh00john | url-access = limited | publisher = Routledge | year = 2004 | isbn = 978-0-415-93339-1| page = }}</ref> In recent years, water fluoridation has become a prevalent health and political issue in many countries, resulting in some countries and communities discontinuing its use while others have expanded it. ] (]) 16:39, 31 January 2024 (UTC) |
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{{talk-ref}} |
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] '''Not done for now:''' please establish a ] for this alteration ''']''' using the {{Tlx|Edit semi-protected}} template.<!-- Template:ESp --> As correctly observed, this is not an uncontroversial edit, and as such the "edit request" procedure does not apply here. ] (]) 17:26, 1 February 2024 (UTC) |
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== Request to add information from The Fluoride Deception by Christopher Bryson == |
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Hi everyone, |
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I think that the findings in Christopher Bryson's book The Fluoride Deception should be given more attention. According to , journalist Christopher Bryson, who worked for the BBC and The Guardian, and another journalist, both on assignment with the Christian Science Monitor, conducted an in-depth investigation on supposed connections between fluoridation of public water supplies and the Manhattan Project that Bryson eventually turned into book-length exposé. As far as I understand, The Fluoride Deception claims that (to oversimplify) the need to deal with fluoride compound-containing runoff/waste from industrial projects, including the Manhattan Project, led to efforts to reclassify fluoride — which was challenging to filter out of the water for some reason — as medically or dentally beneficial. They also found industry-controlled studies showing harmful effects of fluoridation, that they say were deliberately not published. |
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Bryson also claims, according to — which derives some of its information from a blacklisted site, fluoridealert.org — that "industrial interests, concerned about liabilities from fluoride pollution and health effects on workers, played a significant role in the early promotion of fluoridation" and that the fluoride used for fluoridation is from industrial waste. (Assuming that low-level fluoride is indeed mildly beneficial for dental health, the fact that its use and subsequent disposal were, at one point or another, industrially necessary is merely a fortunate coincidence.) |
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In other words, Bryson . I think this observation deserves more attention; it's also notable in of itself that this is a . Yet, this article only has a major section for the right-wing conspiracy theory. That may or may not be a balanced way to faithfully reflect the controversy. I would just point out that, most likely, the conspiracy theory based off of The Fluoride Deception is arguably more grounded in fact. |
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Bryson's book is already listed as citation 45, but it contains additional notable information about the controversy that I did not find in this article (nor in the ) which I would suggest for inclusion. |
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Full disclosure: I found out about this from . But still, it might be surprising for many Misplaced Pages readers that such a reasonably high-quality source, as Bryson's book seems to be, is cited by conspiracy theorists but neither it nor its core claims are referenced in Misplaced Pages at all. While fluoridealert.org is not a valid source, the book itself is, as far as I understand (assuming it says what they say it says). |
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If this has already been brought to your attention, I'd love to know why it was decided not to include it. |
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Respectfully, |
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... ] (]) 21:45, 16 August 2024 (UTC) |
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It reads like a conspiracy. Three quotes from the Intro: |
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*“The plot (to add fluoride to toothpaste and drinking water) includes … Hiroshima atomic bomb..” |
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*“Twists and turns of the fluoride story are propelled by nothing less than the often grim requirements of accumulating power…” |
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*“… fluoride was systematically removed from public association with ill health by … U.S. military and big corporations”--] (]) 22:10, 16 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:Yeah, it's a poor souce. I've trimmed it (with some other unreliable/undue stuff). For ] we need ]. ] (]) 00:59, 17 August 2024 (UTC) |
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::Hi, why do you say this is a poor source? Sorry if I'm showing my ignorance of the rules for good sources. For example, had his article been published in the Christian Science Monitor, as it originally was apparently going to be, it could be counted as a source, right? But since CSM declined to print it (while others publishers did), it can't be? Is that correct? |
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::Also, how is it determined that this article or suggested portion of this article is or isn't ] as opposed (biomedical/health-related) public policy controversy. Arguably, this source/information touches more on the non-] categories of information such as Beliefs, Medical Ethics, History, Society and Culture, etc. rather than Health Effects, Medical Decisions, etc. ] (]) 01:45, 17 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Some claims are ], some not. As to sources, the ] tend to be ] sources from recognized authorities in the field, published by high-quality publishers. They must be ]. Bryson's book was actually reviewed in ''Nature''{{snd}}]{{snd}}and it seems it mixes some solid reportage with dangerous misinformation and scientific incompetence. For the basic science, Misplaced Pages would use the underlying literature rather than a questionable book by a reporter/TV producer. ] (]) 02:05, 17 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:Hi, thanks for your comment. A partial rebuttal, if I may: |
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:- Book-length journalism pieces by prominent reporters, used as sources elsewhere, often use colorful language suggestive of conspiracy theories. This is not traditionally understand to detract from the credibility of their claims. Many exposes (e.g. those of Erin Brockovich, the Watergate reporters, the Miami Herald on the Epstein affair, etc.) use such language and even claim (actual) conspiracies. |
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:- In this case, the reporter/investigator is otherwise as credible as any of the above, based on his credentials in his biography. I didn't do an extensive search, but as far as I can tell, his factual claims regarding fluoride waste from industrial processes have not been publicly contradicted. |
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:- The first quote you listed, including the preceding sentence, is "Yet the story of how fluoride was added to our toothpaste and drinking water is an extraordinary, almost fantastic tale. The plot includes some of the most spectacular events in human affairs—the explosion of the Hiroshima atomic bomb, for example." In this context, I think most readers would read "plot" to refer to the "story" referred to in the preceding sentence, not the presumed "plot" to improve the public image of fluoride, implement water fluoridation, etc. |
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:I'm wondering what you would think about including something like this: "The 1997 book The Fluoride Deception by investigative journalist Christopher Bryson claims that ... .. The claims regarding have been disputed by... "? ] (]) 01:35, 17 August 2024 (UTC) |
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::Unless some secondary source is commenting on those claims, why? If the rest of the world is ignoring Bryson's claims Misplaced Pages needs to also. ] (]) 02:06, 17 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:::I am simply voicing my opinion as a professional chemist. Yes, Bryson has a fine resume as an investigative reporter. But now he is doing investigation of chemistry, and he is out of his depth. Why link Hiroshima to the fluoride controversy? What does it mean to say that fluoride is "muscular"? Listen, I predict that this book will be admitted into Misplaced Pages. The fluoride dispute is over, fluoridation won. Water fluoridation is fading slowly, but fluoride is pervasive in toothpastes. What I want to see from the Brysons and supporters is some commentary on fluoride from a top-level dentistry textbook, the kind of text used at highly ranked dental schools. --] (]) 12:59, 17 August 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Yes. We really don't want to be using sources that confuse fluoride and fluorine. ] (]) 17:20, 17 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::If you look carefully, that's what the headline says, but the article doesn't really make that case. It describes some idiotic things he has said and done in he past. then just makes generalised speculation about what might happen in future. Nothing specific. ] (]) 08:05, 15 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::If you look carefully, that's what the headline says, but the article doesn't really make that case. It describes some idiotic things he has said and done in he past. then just makes generalised speculation about what might happen in future. Nothing specific. ] (]) 08:05, 15 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::Reverted as RFK Jr. is notable on this article. ] (]) 14:12, 15 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::Reverted as RFK Jr. is notable on this article. ] (]) 14:12, 15 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::NO he's not. He's not even mentioned in hte article. ] (]) 23:00, 15 November 2024 (UTC) |
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In my opinion, having a photo of him included near well-sourced content about his impact on the subject of the article would be just fine, but there's no reason to feature his photo in the article as it currently stands, and I don't think there's any reason to have him in the lead unless and until significant, noted, well-sourced major events change that. I also think enriching the article with a few more illustrations would decrease the impact of one photo of RFK Jr. being added and alleviate any potential ] concerns around the picture. <!-- Template:Third opinion response --> — ] 🚀 <sup>(] • ])</sup> 20:22, 15 November 2024 (UTC) |
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In my opinion, having a photo of him included near well-sourced content about his impact on the subject of the article would be just fine, but there's no reason to feature his photo in the article as it currently stands, and I don't think there's any reason to have him in the lead unless and until significant, noted, well-sourced major events change that. I also think enriching the article with a few more illustrations would decrease the impact of one photo of RFK Jr. being added and alleviate any potential ] concerns around the picture. <!-- Template:Third opinion response --> — ] 🚀 <sup>(] • ])</sup> 20:22, 15 November 2024 (UTC) |
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I've included mention of RFK Jr. under opposition from environmental groups as he worked at ] and founded ]. ] (]) 06:54, 26 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:This more US-centrism. It's not a good look for a global article. ] (]) 08:40, 26 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::The same sentence references the American groups the John Birch Society and the KKK. Inclusion of notable Americans is not US centrism. ] (]) 08:58, 26 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Well, it actually is. 95% of the world's people don't live in the USA. Unless you include proportionate mention of people and bodies from elsewhere, it's classic US-centrism. The fact those other American bodies were already mentioned just makes things worse. ] (]) 09:04, 26 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Is this about ] which added "(including senior politician ])"? Does the reference at the end of the sentence mention RFK? Have reliable sources made statements about RFK and this topic which would make material on RFK ]? ] (]) 09:11, 26 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::I include some non-US sources here |
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:::::*https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/nov/04/fluoride-explainer-what-is-us-election-donald-trump-robert-f-kennedy-jr |
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:::::*https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gx3kkz8z3o |
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:::::*https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/nov/03/rfk-jr-trump-remove-fluoride-drinking-water |
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:::::*https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/fluoride-water-trump-rfk-why-b2647474.html |
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:::::*https://www.telegraph.co.uk/us/politics/2024/11/03/donald-trump-remove-fluoride-tap-water-says-rfk/ |
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:::::*https://www.reuters.com/world/us/what-is-fluoride-why-is-it-added-us-water-supply-2024-11-25/ |
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:::::*https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/montreal-west-island-fluoride-1.7390428 |
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:::::*https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/11/15/how-controversial-is-trumps-pick-of-rfk-jr-as-us-health-secretary |
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:::::*https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/rfk-jr-fluoride-water-teeth-b2653515.html |
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:::::*https://www.thehindu.com/news/international/us-elections/robert-f-kennedy-jr-says-donald-trump-would-push-to-remove-fluoride-from-drinking-water/article68824814.ece |
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:::::] (]) 08:19, 27 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::Non-US sources don't help. Most of those are simply telling us about something happening in the USA. So it's still US-centrism.] (]) 08:50, 27 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::Things happen in the USA that are notable enough to be referenced in articles not specifically about the US. Nominating RFK Jr to Secretary of Health is one thing that is notable for his opposition to water fluoridation. ] (]) 09:42, 27 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::But it's STILL about events entirely within the USA. Is nobody elsewhere opposed to fluoridation? I can actually help you here. Australia has its own similar nutter, though not with the an equivalent political ancestry - ]. He's a fan of RFK Jr too. Maybe write about him rather than the all-American hero.] (]) 05:22, 28 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::Are there ten sources about Pete Evans views on fluoridation that are not from his own country? Is Pete Evans presumptive nominee for Minister/Secretary of Health in his own country or likely to be? Or the same questions for any other opponent of fluoridation. Including the John Birch society or the KKK for that matter? What is their impact on fluoridation outside the USA? What was RFK Jrs impact on public health in Samoa? Was it notable? ] (]) 11:24, 28 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::::RFK Jr being presumptive nominee for Minister/Secretary of Health in his own country is obviously a US-centric matter. RFK Jr is mostly laughed at outside the US, so his influence on fluoridation outside the USA is probably the opposite of what he seeks. ] (]) 22:34, 28 November 2024 (UTC) |
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: {{tq|I have posted on the talk page before your revert}} "I have written something on the talk page, now I can continue edit-warring" is not how ] works. You wait until the discussion is over (and you have reached consensus). --] (]) 09:43, 26 November 2024 (UTC) |
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== Sept. 25, 2024 fed court ruling == |
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The findings in Judge Chen's ruling merit mention. I propose language like this: |
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On Sept. 25, 2024, U.S. Federal Judge Edward Chen ruled that water fluoridation posed an, “unreasonable risk of reduced IQ in children…a risk sufficient to require the EPA to engage with a regulatory response…One thing the EPA cannot do, however, in the face of this Court’s finding, is to ignore that risk.” |
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https://news.bloomberglaw.com/environment-and-energy/epa-must-reduce-fluorides-risks-to-childrens-iq-court-says |
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Many other sources will verify this information if needed. The addition would help get the section, "Court Cases, United States" up to date. ] (]) 00:54, 14 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::It certainly seems to be a fact hat the judge made this ruling. I just wish we would place more emphasis on the fact that courts can never decide science. ] (]) 01:25, 14 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== Opposition == |
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This page used to be called Water Fluoridation Opposition. After the name change to Water Fluoridation Controversy, most data regarding the opposition was removed. Opposition to water fluoridation is currently increasing exponentially. If this is not the place to document this significant movement, perhaps it is time for a "new" (resurrected) Misplaced Pages page. For a "new" page, I propose the title, "Water Fluoridation Opposition." ] (]) 21:11, 15 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:Opposition to water fluoridation NOT is currently increasing exponentially. ] (]) 03:01, 16 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::Interest in (and skepticism of) water fluoridation has been on the rise lately.<ref>https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/rfk-jr-fluoride-water-teeth-b2653515.html</ref>Recent developments such as the Aug. NTP report,<ref>https://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/whatwestudy/assessments/noncancer/completed/fluoride</ref>the Sept. Federal Court ruling<ref>https://www.cand.uscourts.gov/food-and-water-watch-v-us-epa/</ref>and the Florida Surgeon General’s new policy<ref>https://www.floridahealth.gov/newsroom/2024/11/20241122-fluoridation-guidance.pr.html</ref>have garnered unprecedented attention for this subject. Naturally these developments will find their way to the appropriate Misplaced Pages pages as interest and rules permit. New pages may be called for. ] (]) 23:37, 16 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::What you say may be true for one country where less than 5% of the world's population live and which is undergoing a dramatic political shift right now. Please don't try to modify this global article as if the whole world is doing the same. ] (]) 01:13, 17 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::I think that's an excessively simplistic approach. Most of the world's population by far does not receive intentionally artificially fluoridated water. See ] and ]. If fluoridation is ended in the US, this would probably cut the number of people receiving intentionally artificially fluoridated water in the world by about half. So what happens in the US is actually fairly significant in terms of the effect on fluoridation even on a worldwide basis. ] (]) 10:06, 9 January 2025 (UTC) |
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:I have moved this to ] accordingly; there may be a need to reword certain parts of this article accordingly. But I see no reason for two separate articles on the same issue (note I was directed to this article by ], which also supported moving this article to "Opposition to water fluoridation") ] (]) 14:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC) |
I notice that the article lists 1990 as the end date for water fluoridation in East Germany. Was that date due merely to the termination of the DDR as a legal entity upon unification with the BRD; was it due to the DDR's adoption, upon unification, of the BRD policy of non-fluoridation; or did the DDR abandon fluoridation pre-unification, and if the last, did it do so under the influence of the USSR, which abandoned fluoridation in the same year?
The findings in Judge Chen's ruling merit mention. I propose language like this:
On Sept. 25, 2024, U.S. Federal Judge Edward Chen ruled that water fluoridation posed an, “unreasonable risk of reduced IQ in children…a risk sufficient to require the EPA to engage with a regulatory response…One thing the EPA cannot do, however, in the face of this Court’s finding, is to ignore that risk.”
Many other sources will verify this information if needed. The addition would help get the section, "Court Cases, United States" up to date. Petergkeyes (talk) 00:54, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
This page used to be called Water Fluoridation Opposition. After the name change to Water Fluoridation Controversy, most data regarding the opposition was removed. Opposition to water fluoridation is currently increasing exponentially. If this is not the place to document this significant movement, perhaps it is time for a "new" (resurrected) Misplaced Pages page. For a "new" page, I propose the title, "Water Fluoridation Opposition." Petergkeyes (talk) 21:11, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
Response to third opinion request: