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== Creationism vs Creation Science ==
== Both the hard and soft sciences have problems with pseudoscience ==


I understand that the list for pseudoscience's is a quote,
Forgive me if I have missed coverage of this in the article, but the strong opposition to adding ] to this article/subject leads me to think we need to deal with this topic in this article. I suspect that we tend to think of pseudoscience only from the background of denial of the facts in the hard sciences.


"that ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], and ] are pseudosciences."
Because "Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge" (Sagan), we need to get away from focusing on the "denial of facts" common to all pseudoscientific claims. It's more about "wrong thinking" (]) than "wrong facts". The wrong facts of ] (as in holocaust denial) are often completely different than the wrong facts of pseudoscience (like ] and ] "]"), but the logical fallacies are the same, ergo both types are pseudoscientific.


but should the link for creationism be changed to ] rather than ], seeing that that page is dedicated to the specific pseudoscientific claims instead of ], which is more philosophical. ] (]) 05:47, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
I think much of the problem is related to various demarcation issues, differing terminologies, and the confluence and similarities of the logical fallacies that occur in both pseudohistory and pseudoscience. Also, how does one define science? There are several types: hard, soft, natural, social, etc. I am not a good person to do this, as I am not an expert at discussing all the epistemological angles of this stuff. My background is in the hard sciences, specifically medical science, not the soft/social sciences.


:] has sections on different types. ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ] are all pseudoscience.
So we need coverage (maybe one good paragraph would be enough) of pseudoscience as wrong thinking, per Sagan. If something involves wrong thinking, it might be categorized as pseudoscience. That should be our inclusion criteria. -- ] (]) (''''']''''') 17:15, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
:Yes I would agree. The demarcation problem is a central thing here, and I think we should provide several different methods of it from the most salient thinkers on the subject.{{pb}}Good sources for such a paragraph would include:
:*Carl Sagan's '']''
:*Michael Shermer's '''' and ''''
:*Brian Regal's ''''
:*Massimo Pigliucci's ''''
:*Martin Gardner's '']''
:*Scott Lilienfeld's ''''
:*William Williams' ''''
:*Ben Goldacre's '']''
: —&nbsp;] <sup>(]</sup> <sup>])</sup> 18:50, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
::It seems to me that the way to mention these subjects would be to take ] out of the ==See also== section and explain its relationship to this narrower subject. ] (]) 23:47, 6 August 2023 (UTC)


:changing the link seems like a reasonable suggestion to me. and if creation science is what we use for that subject on wikipedia, i think it makes sense for the text to also be changed to Creation Science. ] (]) 04:52, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
== External links ==
::We use the term "creation science" for creation science and "creationism" for creationism. Both are pseudoscience (see my contribution above; I moved yours down because it is newer, see ]), so there is no good reason to replace it. --] (]) 05:53, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
:::According to ] guideline, it is better to use a more accurate language rather than pseudoscientific one. So, ] and ] is better to classified as ] rather than pseudoscience. ] and ] is better to classified as scientific speculative rather than pseudoscience. ] is better classified as traditional ] or ] rather than pseudoscience. ] is better classified as ] rather than pseudoscience. The term "Pseudoscience" is better reserve for only those theory that really look like science but actually are not science or rejected by science, say ], or ] ] (]) 07:52, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
:::Furthermore, there are critical difference between real pseudoscience vs religious concept like creationism, or traditional superstitions concept like astrology. A Real pseudoscience is difficult to differentiate from real science, say most people who believe ] think they are real science and widely accepted by mainstream scientist. However, most creationism believer and advocator are well-informed and they understand creationism are religious concept not current science concept, but they believe bible is more reliable than science when we study the origin of species. Astrology believer are also well-informed that it is being criticized as superstitions. Better language can highlight which one is the real pseudoscience. ] (]) 08:26, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
::::The gist is that we (meaning Wikipedians) aren't the ] who establish demarcation. ] (]) 18:59, 5 August 2024 (UTC)


== Race ==
:There are ten entries in the "External links". Three seems to be an acceptable number and of course, everyone has their favorite to add for four. The problem is that none is needed for article promotion.
*] states: {{tq|Links in the "External links" section should be kept to a minimum. A lack of external links or a small number of external links is not a reason to add external links.}}
*] states: {{tq|There is nothing wrong with adding one or more useful content-relevant links to the external links section of an article; however, excessive lists can dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Misplaced Pages. On articles about topics with many fansites, for example, including a link to one major fansite may be appropriate.}}
*]: {{tq|Minimize the number of links}}.
:The "External links" section needs trimming. -- ] (]) 08:45, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
::We're not in linkfarm territory as the links obviously don't dwarf the article. Which links are you proposing to remove and why? ] (]) 17:18, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
:::'''Reply''': I apologize for any sarcasm that might seem evident, and I mean this in the nicest of ways, but I cannot (or will not) discuss or debate with someone that would argue that blue is not really blue. Your reply causes me to be flabbergasted. Nothing wrong with adding one or more useful content-relevant links, unequivocally doesn't mean 6, 8, or 10. See: ] {{tq|Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a featured article. In other words, the site should not merely repeat information that is already or should be in the article. Links that may be used to improve the page in the future can be placed on the article's talk page}}. As an afterthought; everything looks great. -- ] (]) 02:10, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
::::Not what I said but ok. ] (]) 21:14, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
::Three or four may be a typical number, but there is no rule saying that 10 can't be offered. ] (]) 23:49, 6 August 2023 (UTC)


About recent edit. The removal based on the edit summary appears incorrect, if ] is merely a ] then then logic goes that it is not scientifically valid. ] (]) 14:53, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
== Feyerabend ==


== UFO ==
I have removed the line about ] under ===Criticism of the term===, because the cited source does not criticize the term, or even say anything about it. A quick search indicates that the entire book contains exactly one instance of the word ''pseudoscience'', in the preface, when he says that Kuhn's terminology has "turned up in various forms of pseudoscience". Feyerabend using the term without comment does not make sense as a source to support a claim that he criticized the term, and the question of the dividing line between ] (e.g., physics) and ] (e.g., theology) does not make really sense for an article that is neither about science nor about non-science nor about the dividing line between the two. I have wondered whether it might have been added primarily as a ] for the quotation in the note, which is about a different source. If someone feels strongly about Misplaced Pages including that information, I suggest that you move it to an article like ] instead. ] (]) 04:00, 7 August 2023 (UTC)


Hello, there's a topic on this subject already, but I still wonder, why are you people claiming UFO are pseudoscience? Clearly, life doesn't exist only on this planet, and the UFO sightinghs are real... so it may not be a science, but it's not false either. ] (]) 16:18, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
== Should UFO still be categorized as Pseudoscience and fringe science? ==
{{ctop|Socks don't get to start threads -- ]<sup>]</sup> 19:43, 31 August 2023 (UTC)}}
I recently got a notification on my talkpage when I edited this article.


:Strictly speaking, the claim that there are flying objects which have been not identified is not pseudoscience. Claiming that aliens visit the Earth ''without very good evidence'' is pseudoscience. ] (]) 16:39, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Lonestar-physicist#Introduction_to_contentious_topics


== Pseudoscience on the Pseudoscience Article ==
So is UFO considered Pseudoscience and fringe science? if so why is US government considers it a national security threat and scientifically analyzing it?


The section ] heavily relies on ], presenting it as if the popular science book ] and its proposed terminology and concepts were widely accepted as fact. Special attention should be paid to ] and ]. At the very least, the paragraph should be changed to contextualize the statement as being made in the view of dual process theory, and not simply throw out "System 1, our default operating system which requires little to no effort" as a phrase with no wiki links as if it was an obvious well-established concept.
this is from AARO website published today:


I'd change the paragraph myself and remove any mention of Dual process theory as per the fringe theory policies outlined at ], but the page is protected, likely due to similar content continually being added to it. ] (]) 16:53, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
https://www.aaro.mil/


== Scientific Consensus ==
"Our team of experts is leading the U.S. government’s efforts to address Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena (UAP) using a rigorous scientific framework and a data-driven approach. Since its establishment in July 2022, AARO has taken important steps to improve data collection, standardize reporting requirements, and mitigate the potential threats to safety and security posed by UAP."


I am totally new to Misplaced Pages, sorry if I make mistakes. But I read somewhere in ] that, if I understand it correctly, though we must call pseudoscience pseudoscience, we must not make statements of whether it is true or false. Therefore, instead of saying "such and such a theory is false" we should say "the vast majority of scientists reject such a theory" or "this theory is unscientific." Even pseudoscientists agree. For example, on the topic of young earthism, I have a quote from Ken Ham saying "we are the minority."
https://defensescoop.com/2023/08/30/hicks-takes-direct-oversight-of-pentagons-uap-office-new-reporting-website-to-be-launched/?utm_content=262515320&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&hss_channel=tw-1450183022616121344


Just wondering if I got this correct. Thank you! ] (]) 19:08, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
from the article: "When asked why she went all-in on prioritizing AARO as an element under her purview, particularly now, Hicks told DefenseScoop: “The department takes UAP seriously because UAP are a potential national security threat. They also pose safety risks, and potentially endanger our personnel, our equipment and bases, and the security of our operations. DOD is focusing through AARO to better understand UAP, and improve our capabilities to detect, collect, analyze and eventually resolve UAP to prevent strategic surprise and protect our forces, our operations, and our nation.” ] (]) 17:08, 31 August 2023 (UTC)


:Governments get mislead by pseudoscience all the time. See for example ] or the ]. - ] (]) 17:17, 31 August 2023 (UTC) :Thanks for your question. And welcome to Misplaced Pages. You've also asked this question at ] and it is receiving response there. Please don't ask the same question in two different locations. ] (]) 08:45, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
::Sorry, I am new to this. Should I delete the question, if it is possible? ] (]) 18:33, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
::well that's such a huge false equivalency. So how do you determine when government is being misled or not? And what makes you think you're more intelligent than DOD scientists like Sean Kirkpatrick? ] (]) 17:25, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
:::We determine it by following what the best available ] say (this is how we determine more or less everything on Misplaced Pages). They're pretty clear. Ufology is a field dominated by fringe/pseudoscience. ] (]) 17:40, 31 August 2023 (UTC) :::That's fine. Personally, I would just leave this conversation here. It shows that the issue is noted and resolved. ] (]) 18:54, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
::::there's fringe/pseudoscience in every field, such as vaccinology. is Vaccinology considered fringe/pseudoscience? ] (]) 18:07, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
:::::We don't have reliable sources that say so, so no. ] (]) 18:08, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
::::::So in your opinion editors are supposed to not use their brain, ignore facts and delegate their thinking to so called reliable sources? Great idea! ] (]) 18:09, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
::::::: Yes, that's exactly what Misplaced Pages does, and always has done, because it roots our articles in fact rather than opinion. There is a big difference between fields that have some minor fringe/pseudoscientific theories attached to them, and fields (like UFOlogy) that are effectively completely fringe. And yes, that's what reliable sources say. ] 18:13, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
:::{{tq|And what makes you think you're more intelligent}} Intelligence does not come into it either. Your whole approach is totally fakakte. Pseudoscience, that is, a thing that pretends to be science, does not stop being pseudoscience just because someone falls for the pretense. That would be like throwing the theories of relativity out of the window just because of one measurement of a speed value above c. Mistakes happen. --] (]) 18:14, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
::::Intelligence is also irrelevant to this then? lol. that's what I meant about some people here expecting editors to not use their brains.
::::Aren't you just appealing to authority and pretending that your approach is science and fact based? ] (]) 18:41, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
:::::I ask everyone to not make this personal and stay on subject. This is all to improve the article. ] (]) 18:43, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
::::::Yes. Misplaced Pages is based on appeals to authority, by design. That is the essence of our core policies, ], ], ], etc. ] (]) 18:48, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
:::::::appeal to authority is a fallacy according to wikipedia
:::::::An argument from authority (argumentum ab auctoritate), also called an appeal to authority, or argumentum ad verecundiam (argument against shame), is a form of fallacy when the opinion of a non-expert on a topic is used as evidence to support an argument or when the authority is used to say that the claim is true, as authorities can be wrong
:::::::https://en.wikipedia.org/Argument_from_authority ] (]) 19:06, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
::::::::{{tq| is a form of fallacy '''when the opinion of a non-expert'''}} - This is why we rely on experts (that is, reliable sources as laid out in ]). ] (]) 19:16, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::you don't make any sense man. read what you write first. you don't know what you're talking about. ] (]) 19:17, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::Right back at you, my man. ] (]) 19:18, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::if you can't act as a grown up, please go play somewhere else. ] (]) 19:20, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::::You can always tell an argument is going well when the personal attacks come out. You're right, though, we've accomplished everything this thread is going to accomplish - you now know that per Misplaced Pages's policies, this article can and will continue to identify Ufology as a pseudoscience. Feel free to take the last word if you require it. ] (]) 19:23, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
{{cob}}


== Danger of Pseudoscience ==
== Creationism vs Creation Science ==


"Pseudoscience can have dangerous effects." This seems like an incomplete statement to make that leads the reader to believe that, conversely, Science does not have dangerous effects and is therefore superior. Countless products of the scientific process have caused dangerous effects on humans, animals, plants, and the environment (csuch as chemicals in our food, side effects of vaccinations, radiation, etc, all of which have evidence of harm to ). Pseudoscience is not necessarily more beneficial or harmful than science, but rather has different processes leading to it. ] (]) 18:24, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
I understand that the list for pseudoscience's is a quote,


:The quoted statement is true. But unless you suggest a specific edit based upon ], your request has to be discarded.
"that ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], and ] are pseudosciences."
:Namely, the evil consequences (real or purported) of science amount to ]. ] (]) 22:01, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
:I totally agree. That part of the article is totally biased and pointless, and if not modified, it should simply be removed.
:There is always a danger in believing something is absolute, wether scientifically backed or not. ] (]) 08:22, 10 January 2025 (UTC)


::To cut a long story short, we edit according to the ]. Your request does not comply with our rules.
but should the link for creationism be changed to ] rather than ], seeing that that page is dedicated to the specific pseudoscientific claims instead of ], which is more philosophical. ] (]) 05:47, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
::Our article does not violate anyone's right to believe as they please. It simply renders what is pseudoscience according to mainstream ].

::And it does not even claim that your God does not exist. ] (]) 13:58, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
:] has sections on different types. ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ] are all pseudoscience.

:changing the link seems like a reasonable suggestion to me. and if creation science is what we use for that subject on wikipedia, i think it makes sense for the text to also be changed to Creation Science. ] (]) 04:52, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
::We use the term "creation science" for creation science and "creationism" for creationism. Both are pseudoscience (see my contribution above; I moved yours down because it is newer, see ]), so there is no good reason to replace it. --] (]) 05:53, 9 September 2023 (UTC)


::This article is about pseudoscience, it is not about science. If you are looking for a place to write about the harms of science, then that would be the science article. Also, it is ] to state that "Pseudoscience is not necessarily more beneficial or harmful than science". ] (]) 15:52, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
== Merge proposal ] ==
I propose merging ] into ]. ] (not to be confused with ]) it is just a definition (]) and the whole article is based entirely on ] speech. A quick mention in ] would be enough. Another option would be to RM cargo cult science into somehting like "Feynmans's 1934 commencement speech". --] (]) 14:39, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
:I agree with the proposal to merge. Feynman's thoughts on the topic might merit more than a quick mention here; perhaps a paragraph.--] (]) 22:00, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

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Creationism vs Creation Science

I understand that the list for pseudoscience's is a quote,

"that creationism, astrology, homeopathy, Kirlian photography, dowsing, ufology, ancient astronaut theory, Holocaust denialism, Velikovskian catastrophism, and climate change denialism are pseudosciences."

but should the link for creationism be changed to Creation Science rather than Creationism, seeing that that page is dedicated to the specific pseudoscientific claims instead of Creationism, which is more philosophical. Chip K. Daniels (talk) 05:47, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Creationism has sections on different types. Young Earth creationism, Gap creationism, Day-age creationism, Progressive creationism, Creation science, Neo-creationism, Intelligent design, Geocentrism, Omphalos hypothesis are all pseudoscience.
changing the link seems like a reasonable suggestion to me. and if creation science is what we use for that subject on wikipedia, i think it makes sense for the text to also be changed to Creation Science. Handpigdad (talk) 04:52, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
We use the term "creation science" for creation science and "creationism" for creationism. Both are pseudoscience (see my contribution above; I moved yours down because it is newer, see WP:THREAD), so there is no good reason to replace it. --Hob Gadling (talk) 05:53, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
According to Misplaced Pages:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Pseudoscience guideline, it is better to use a more accurate language rather than pseudoscientific one. So, Creationism and Creation Science is better to classified as religious belief rather than pseudoscience. Ufology and ancient astronaut theory is better to classified as scientific speculative rather than pseudoscience. Astrology is better classified as traditional superstitions or pseudopsychology rather than pseudoscience. Homeopathy is better classified as pseudomedicine rather than pseudoscience. The term "Pseudoscience" is better reserve for only those theory that really look like science but actually are not science or rejected by science, say Ten percent of the brain myth, or Neuro-linguistic programming Cloud29371 (talk) 07:52, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
Furthermore, there are critical difference between real pseudoscience vs religious concept like creationism, or traditional superstitions concept like astrology. A Real pseudoscience is difficult to differentiate from real science, say most people who believe Ten percent of the brain myth think they are real science and widely accepted by mainstream scientist. However, most creationism believer and advocator are well-informed and they understand creationism are religious concept not current science concept, but they believe bible is more reliable than science when we study the origin of species. Astrology believer are also well-informed that it is being criticized as superstitions. Better language can highlight which one is the real pseudoscience. Cloud29371 (talk) 08:26, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
The gist is that we (meaning Wikipedians) aren't the authorities who establish demarcation. tgeorgescu (talk) 18:59, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Race

About this recent edit. The removal based on the edit summary appears incorrect, if race (human categorization) is merely a social construct then then logic goes that it is not scientifically valid. Gotitbro (talk) 14:53, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

UFO

Hello, there's a topic on this subject already, but I still wonder, why are you people claiming UFO are pseudoscience? Clearly, life doesn't exist only on this planet, and the UFO sightinghs are real... so it may not be a science, but it's not false either. 46.97.168.128 (talk) 16:18, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, the claim that there are flying objects which have been not identified is not pseudoscience. Claiming that aliens visit the Earth without very good evidence is pseudoscience. tgeorgescu (talk) 16:39, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Pseudoscience on the Pseudoscience Article

The section Pseudoscience#Education_and_scientific_literacy heavily relies on Dual process theory, presenting it as if the popular science book Thinking, Fast and Slow and its proposed terminology and concepts were widely accepted as fact. Special attention should be paid to Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow#Replication_crisis and Dual_process_theory#Issues_with_the_dual-process_account_of_reasoning. At the very least, the paragraph should be changed to contextualize the statement as being made in the view of dual process theory, and not simply throw out "System 1, our default operating system which requires little to no effort" as a phrase with no wiki links as if it was an obvious well-established concept.

I'd change the paragraph myself and remove any mention of Dual process theory as per the fringe theory policies outlined at WP:FRINGE, but the page is protected, likely due to similar content continually being added to it. Sprintente (talk) 16:53, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Scientific Consensus

I am totally new to Misplaced Pages, sorry if I make mistakes. But I read somewhere in here that, if I understand it correctly, though we must call pseudoscience pseudoscience, we must not make statements of whether it is true or false. Therefore, instead of saying "such and such a theory is false" we should say "the vast majority of scientists reject such a theory" or "this theory is unscientific." Even pseudoscientists agree. For example, on the topic of young earthism, I have a quote from Ken Ham saying "we are the minority."

Just wondering if I got this correct. Thank you! Lenderthrond (talk) 19:08, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your question. And welcome to Misplaced Pages. You've also asked this question at Talk:Creation science and it is receiving response there. Please don't ask the same question in two different locations. Feline Hymnic (talk) 08:45, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
Sorry, I am new to this. Should I delete the question, if it is possible? Lenderthrond (talk) 18:33, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
That's fine. Personally, I would just leave this conversation here. It shows that the issue is noted and resolved. Feline Hymnic (talk) 18:54, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Danger of Pseudoscience

"Pseudoscience can have dangerous effects." This seems like an incomplete statement to make that leads the reader to believe that, conversely, Science does not have dangerous effects and is therefore superior. Countless products of the scientific process have caused dangerous effects on humans, animals, plants, and the environment (csuch as chemicals in our food, side effects of vaccinations, radiation, etc, all of which have evidence of harm to ). Pseudoscience is not necessarily more beneficial or harmful than science, but rather has different processes leading to it. 2600:1014:A020:7D9F:EDB3:C4AE:45A6:1A57 (talk) 18:24, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

The quoted statement is true. But unless you suggest a specific edit based upon WP:RS, your request has to be discarded.
Namely, the evil consequences (real or purported) of science amount to WP:COATRACK. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:01, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
I totally agree. That part of the article is totally biased and pointless, and if not modified, it should simply be removed.
There is always a danger in believing something is absolute, wether scientifically backed or not. 109.142.174.140 (talk) 08:22, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
To cut a long story short, we edit according to the WP:RULES. Your request does not comply with our rules.
Our article does not violate anyone's right to believe as they please. It simply renders what is pseudoscience according to mainstream epistemology.
And it does not even claim that your God does not exist. tgeorgescu (talk) 13:58, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
This article is about pseudoscience, it is not about science. If you are looking for a place to write about the harms of science, then that would be the science article. Also, it is original research to state that "Pseudoscience is not necessarily more beneficial or harmful than science". Photos of Japan (talk) 15:52, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
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