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| ***I'm asking for a ''decision'' you disagree with, not a ''listing'' you disagree with. Yes, sometimes things get listed that really don't need to be. If we're going to MfD for that, we'd better throw AN and ANI on this, a lot of useless threads get opened there! In this case, the banned user was obviously correctly banned, they stayed banned, no harm done. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 09:01, 3 May 2007 (UTC) | ***I'm asking for a ''decision'' you disagree with, not a ''listing'' you disagree with. Yes, sometimes things get listed that really don't need to be. If we're going to MfD for that, we'd better throw AN and ANI on this, a lot of useless threads get opened there! In this case, the banned user was obviously correctly banned, they stayed banned, no harm done. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 09:01, 3 May 2007 (UTC) | ||
| ****My issue with the board is that while good things evolve from it, the method by which these decisions are made is done in an entirely improper way. Most users listed there are already indefinitely blocked, and nearly all have never been unblocked under any circumstances.—] (]) 09:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC) | ****My issue with the board is that while good things evolve from it, the method by which these decisions are made is done in an entirely improper way. Most users listed there are already indefinitely blocked, and nearly all have never been unblocked under any circumstances.—] (]) 09:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC) | ||
| **I must say that I find a bit of this unconvincing, and would prefer '''deletion''' at this point. First, I believe that the community sanction noticeboard does change the the definition of community bans, by turning them into a bureaucratic process. This is dangerous. We don't need yet another insular, self-serving community of people reporting on others and "enforcing". See ]. This is also instruction creep that gives rise to the misconception that all bans must be discussed and ratified on CSN (]) and tht is being spread to other places where such threads are directed to CSN as inappropriate at ]. Furthermore, this promotes the misconception that discussion is ''necessary'' for any and all bans, since bans are now some "formal" process which require "ratification." Discussions are a matter of judgment: necessary when there is a valid question, but a waste of time when an issue is obvious to all, and not contested. Excessive rules and bureaucracy with no functional benefit are the treats for trolls and ruleslawyers, who will seek to avoid bans because procedures like this were not followed. There is no reason that proposals for bans cannot be brought up at other, ''better'' fora, with more traffic and less procedural hoops. This is a wiki; that page is the same as all the rest except for what you write at the top of the page. The discussions you are talking about, like "provid a mechanism by which the community can propose and ratify sanctions short of a complete ban" can take place just as easily on ] or elsewhere. Deleting the CSN is not suggesting in any way that discussions about bans shouldn't take place, but that the way they do there is unhelpful, usually. CSN doesn't give anyone a "Block EditorX from editing foo-related articles" button either, so it's not any more necessary for such decisions. The concern about voting is a very valid one. Despite the page's header, discussions there have often devolved into simple votes, where rationale is unimportant, and worse, admins have even been "closing" such discussions as if it were a vote to be read and decided, not a discussion with an organic conclusion. We need to avoid the quickpollization of community bans at all costs, and based on its history, I think the community sanction noticeboard is counterproductive in that regard, and serves no necessary enough role that isn't already covered elsewhere that it is worth saving. ]·] 09:09, 3 May 2007 (UTC) | |||
| * This page has never produced any helpful/productive/useful/constructive/etc. discussion on anything. Most posts are either a waste of time or are just being used as an unofficial step in dispute resolution. ] ] 08:58, 3 May 2007 (UTC) | * This page has never produced any helpful/productive/useful/constructive/etc. discussion on anything. Most posts are either a waste of time or are just being used as an unofficial step in dispute resolution. ] ] 08:58, 3 May 2007 (UTC) | ||
Revision as of 09:09, 3 May 2007
Misplaced Pages:Community sanction noticeboard
This page was created with the intent that it was to become a place for the community to come together and discuss matters similar to those that are normally discussed on the administrative and incident noticeboards. It was felt that because "administrators'" was used in the title of the other two pages, it excluded the rest of the community, which they truly did not.
This board was originally known as the "Community noticeboard". It has however become a board to get a vote on officially banning users. I had originally planned to send this board up for the miscellany for deletion when the board decided to discuss the merits of the original community ban on Daniel Brandt including some users who wished to lift the ban on the user (irrelevant of later actions by Jimbo concerning Brandt). This board is no longer used to discuss pressing issues for the community but rather a brand new version of Misplaced Pages:Quickpolls.
Such examples of abuse of the board include the discussion of Eagle 101's unblocking of Gen. von Klinkerhoffen and the extreme misunderstanding of what a community ban is, a request for more people to comment on a ban (not unlike an AfD discussion), as well as the previously stated Daniel Brandt discussion and discussing whether or not the original community bans are still in effect.
The decisions made on the community sanction noticeboard have also spread to other pages concerning the community ban, but those pages will have to come up at a later date. Deletion is my first choice here. Sending it the way of Esperanza is my second choice. We just need some sort of decision to eliminate this mess of bureaucracy before it becomes like WP:AfD or what has become WP:RFCN.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 08:28, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
- A community ban is one that "not one out of 1,200+ admins are willing to undo", not something that was "ratified" on a noticeboard. Check out this current request. Community bans are simple, something that nobody is willing to undo, not something that is ratified by a board. Also please note the board's original purpose was to be a place to post things visable to everyone, not a place to discuss users. I'm seeing cases where the board is being used for nothing but to attack other editors, without going through the dispute resolution process, or even attempting to open an request for comment on a user. See WP:CN#Request_for_blocking_of_user:Pdelongchamp_on_vlogging_article, that user has never had a Request for comment, or gone through the dispute resolution process, but rather just ran to get a ban. Misuse of this board (whose intent was never to be for bans to start with) are rampent, just check the archives here which shows 38 sections with a bolded endorse, support, or oppose. —— Eagle101 08:35, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
- Keep - Maybe we should re-focuss what a community ban actually is then. There is no way to truely know if a user is community banned without ratifying it - this is the ideal place for it. Ryan Postlethwaite 08:40, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
- Sure we do, if not one out of 1200 admins are willing to undo it, then the user is banned. If the user has an indef block and appeals it, and no admin is willing to undo the block (because they have been so troublesome) then its a ban. —— Eagle101 08:43, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
- I don't agree, for long term users, a community ban should be ratified, so that it is clear the user is not welcome here, and any socks which they may create. It is also the only place that page bans can be given out without wasting ArbComs time. Ryan Postlethwaite 08:47, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
- If you take it through the dispute resolution proccess then it will end up at arbcom, who will then do the ban after over 3 weeks of discussion, not just the quick "yea" or "na" stuff I'm seeing here. —— Eagle101 08:49, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
- Some things don't need the 3 weeks of discussion that ArbCom do - it just wastes time when the community can give the same action anyway. Ryan Postlethwaite 08:51, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
- Really? Please show me a decent use of this board, of a user that was not already indef blocked by the time they showed up here for "ratification". Keep in mind a community ban is an indef block by an admin which no other admin will undo. I mean someone like User:Willy on wheels is dead obvious, but other cases where there is edit-disputes, and multiple users who did something wrong, its time to go to arbcom. —— Eagle101 08:54, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages:Community_sanction_noticeboard#Lovelight? Blocked for 2 weeks, turned into a quick discussion and his block was extended to a full community ban, no RfC needed, or ArbCom due to the fact that the community had already had enough and things were unlikely to change. Ryan Postlethwaite 08:58, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
- Mmm had I noticed that I would have done a RFC, and had gone from there rather then the witchhunt and "supports" to ban a user from wikipedia. If the user asked for a request for comment, and was willing to stop his edits, then he should have been given the chance. —— Eagle101 09:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages:Community_sanction_noticeboard#Lovelight? Blocked for 2 weeks, turned into a quick discussion and his block was extended to a full community ban, no RfC needed, or ArbCom due to the fact that the community had already had enough and things were unlikely to change. Ryan Postlethwaite 08:58, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
- Really? Please show me a decent use of this board, of a user that was not already indef blocked by the time they showed up here for "ratification". Keep in mind a community ban is an indef block by an admin which no other admin will undo. I mean someone like User:Willy on wheels is dead obvious, but other cases where there is edit-disputes, and multiple users who did something wrong, its time to go to arbcom. —— Eagle101 08:54, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
- Some things don't need the 3 weeks of discussion that ArbCom do - it just wastes time when the community can give the same action anyway. Ryan Postlethwaite 08:51, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
- If you take it through the dispute resolution proccess then it will end up at arbcom, who will then do the ban after over 3 weeks of discussion, not just the quick "yea" or "na" stuff I'm seeing here. —— Eagle101 08:49, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
- I don't agree, for long term users, a community ban should be ratified, so that it is clear the user is not welcome here, and any socks which they may create. It is also the only place that page bans can be given out without wasting ArbComs time. Ryan Postlethwaite 08:47, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
- Sure we do, if not one out of 1200 admins are willing to undo it, then the user is banned. If the user has an indef block and appeals it, and no admin is willing to undo the block (because they have been so troublesome) then its a ban. —— Eagle101 08:43, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
- Keep, as useful (and while that's not a valid argument on AfD, it is on MfD!), even if some issues have needed ironing out. (When did SOFIXIT become SODELETEIT, anyway?) CN does not change the definition of old-style community bans, and discussion on the matter has been pretty clear that those need no ratification by any means other than no admin being willing to unblock. If its only purpose were to discuss community bans about which there might be some question, even that would be a useful purpose. However, the most useful purpose it has served is to provide a mechanism by which the community can propose and ratify sanctions short of a complete ban. This cannot be duplicated by old-style community bans, there is not a button an admin can hit to say "Block EditorX from editing foo-related articles," and see if any other admin undoes it. This aside, banning an editor is a serious enough step that something should be reserved for purpose of such discussions. Seraphimblade 08:44, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
- Comment As an addendum to the last, I've asked more than once to be provided an example by those who object to CN, of when a decision made on CN was wrong or improper. Thus far, no such example has been forthcoming, so I leave the question open here. Seraphimblade 08:46, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
- Request community ban on {{vandal|JB196}}; where the board was planned to solely be used to have a link on WP:LOBU—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 08:51, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
- I would also like to point out Consideration of block or ban for User:Just_H, where it was very obvious that no one would be unblocking him.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 08:53, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
- I'm asking for a decision you disagree with, not a listing you disagree with. Yes, sometimes things get listed that really don't need to be. If we're going to MfD for that, we'd better throw AN and ANI on this, a lot of useless threads get opened there! In this case, the banned user was obviously correctly banned, they stayed banned, no harm done. Seraphimblade 09:01, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
- My issue with the board is that while good things evolve from it, the method by which these decisions are made is done in an entirely improper way. Most users listed there are already indefinitely blocked, and nearly all have never been unblocked under any circumstances.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 09:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
- I'm asking for a decision you disagree with, not a listing you disagree with. Yes, sometimes things get listed that really don't need to be. If we're going to MfD for that, we'd better throw AN and ANI on this, a lot of useless threads get opened there! In this case, the banned user was obviously correctly banned, they stayed banned, no harm done. Seraphimblade 09:01, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
- I must say that I find a bit of this unconvincing, and would prefer deletion at this point. First, I believe that the community sanction noticeboard does change the the definition of community bans, by turning them into a bureaucratic process. This is dangerous. We don't need yet another insular, self-serving community of people reporting on others and "enforcing". See Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Personal attack intervention noticeboard. This is also instruction creep that gives rise to the misconception that all bans must be discussed and ratified on CSN (even arbcom bans a year old) and tht is being spread to other places where such threads are directed to CSN as inappropriate at WP:AN. Furthermore, this promotes the misconception that discussion is necessary for any and all bans, since bans are now some "formal" process which require "ratification." Discussions are a matter of judgment: necessary when there is a valid question, but a waste of time when an issue is obvious to all, and not contested. Excessive rules and bureaucracy with no functional benefit are the treats for trolls and ruleslawyers, who will seek to avoid bans because procedures like this were not followed. There is no reason that proposals for bans cannot be brought up at other, better fora, with more traffic and less procedural hoops. This is a wiki; that page is the same as all the rest except for what you write at the top of the page. The discussions you are talking about, like "provid a mechanism by which the community can propose and ratify sanctions short of a complete ban" can take place just as easily on WP:AN or elsewhere. Deleting the CSN is not suggesting in any way that discussions about bans shouldn't take place, but that the way they do there is unhelpful, usually. CSN doesn't give anyone a "Block EditorX from editing foo-related articles" button either, so it's not any more necessary for such decisions. The concern about voting is a very valid one. Despite the page's header, discussions there have often devolved into simple votes, where rationale is unimportant, and worse, admins have even been "closing" such discussions as if it were a vote to be read and decided, not a discussion with an organic conclusion. We need to avoid the quickpollization of community bans at all costs, and based on its history, I think the community sanction noticeboard is counterproductive in that regard, and serves no necessary enough role that isn't already covered elsewhere that it is worth saving. Dmcdevit·t 09:09, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
- This page has never produced any helpful/productive/useful/constructive/etc. discussion on anything. Most posts are either a waste of time or are just being used as an unofficial step in dispute resolution. John Reaves (talk) 08:58, 3 May 2007 (UTC)