Revision as of 21:51, 15 May 2007

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May 9

What does Quebecois pronunciation mean??

I was looking at the item on wiki about poutine and it said something like "Quebecois pronunciation". What is that supposed to mean? I'm not trying to be a smart ass but this is commonly known stuff. Have you really researched the province of Quebec and its population and history before asserting this attribute? I don't think so.

Had you done so, you would have known that québecois is not a nationality or a language, not even as a canadianism. The proper word or words you were looking for are either french-canadian or at the most extreme, joual. (pron. joo-al)

Québec, as you know, is not 100% francophone. The vietnamese population who were born the 2nd generation in Québec are also from the province of Québec but are no more francophone than you are. But they are canadians who reside in the province of Quebec in a country called Canada. Therefore, you can't use something like "quebecois" to describe the roots of a word's origin or how it's pronounced. It's insulting to the other francophones (french-canadians) living outside Quebec and the non-francophones living in Quebec. Unless you've actually lived in a french-canadian community in Canada, it may be a hard concept to grasp but please bring some accuracy to your articles and make this simple edit. 74.104.23.97 02:19, 9 May 2007 (UTC) Benoit Aubry

As you are probably aware, anybody can edit articles at Misplaced Pages, thus the "you" you have addressed in this comment could be anybody. This also means that if you feel that something is incorrect in an article, you are free to change it. In addition, you comment might better have been placed in the talk page for the specific article you are addressing, Poutine. --LarryMac 02:31, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

It says how to pronounce the word in Quebec French, which they are saying is a variety of French. People pronounce words different ways; what is so wrong about saying that people who speak French in Quebec pronounce it that way? I'm having a hard time seeing how it is possible to get offended over something like that. Recury 16:22, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Note that the article was edited after the gripe was posted.  --Lambiam 08:26, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Ojibwe language for Manitoulin Island?

I'm interested in learning the language spoken by First Nations people on Manitoulin Island. See: http://www.wikwemikongheritage.org/language/resources.html Is that Anishinaabemowin? Is there such a thing as an Odawa-Ojibway language and is it different from Anishinaabemowin? Is there a standardized orthography for the language spoken in Wikwemikong or competing systems? Where can I see a full phonology explaining the sounds of that specific dialect or language? The Anishinaabe language dialects page does not mention Manitoulin Island, so I'm not sure which "dialect" is used. The Ottawa (First Nation) page says that Wiky is an Odawa community. Does that mean I'm looking for the Ottawa dialect of Anishinaabemowin? Or does it mean there's more than one dialect or language spoken in Wiky?--Sonjaaa 04:47, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

♦Answer to your first question: Yes. The indigenous languages spoken on Manitoulin Island are various forms of the Anishinaabe language. The three dialects or languages (depending on personal and academic biases) spoken are mixture of Eastern and Central Ojibwe (ojg and ojc), Odawa (otw) and Potawatomi (pot).

♦Answer to your second question: Yes, there is such a thing as a Odawa-Ojibway language. And no, it is not different from Anishinaabemowin, but rather part of Anishinaabemowin. Now, Anishinaabemowin will have subtle differences from community to community, and sometimes from speaker to speaker. On Wikwemikong, due to the past relocation projects from other areas to Manitoulin Island, this variation is quite pronounced. Often a person from Wiky will jokingly claim the ability to speak 5 different languages (dialects): English, Ojibwemowin, Daawaamwin, Bodéwadmimwen and "Ojiwaadmimwen" (a joke name to describe the form of Anishinaabemowin resulting from the mixture of Ojibwemowin, Daawaamwin/Jibwemwin, Bodéwadmimwen uniquely found on Manitoulin Island). The so called Odawa-Ojibway language is the form of the Anishinaabemowin typically called Nishnaabemwin. Nishnaabemwin is divided into Daawaamwin (Odaawaamowin or the Odaawaa language/dialect) and Jibwemwin (Ojibwemowin or the Central/Eastern Ojibwe dialect of the Ojibwe language).

♦Answer to your third question: No. There is not a standardized orthography for the language spoken in Wikwemikong; however, the Rhodes Double Vowel system is what is used among the academic circles.

♦Answer to your fourth question: Anishinaabe language dialects is the article you want to look at. It does not say "Manitoulin Island" specifically, but it is grouped (for now) with Ontario. Using the ISO 639-3 designation, again, the four dialects of Anishinaabe languages found on the island are ojg, ojc, otw and pot.

♦Answer to your fifth question: No, despite what the article currently says, Wikwemikong is not an Odawa-only community. Most of the people in Wiky are Odawa and Potawatomi, but with high degree of interactions with neighbouring Ojibwa communities, that distinctness Canadians and American love so much but have always been fuzzy among the Anishinaabeg are even more blurred with the communities found on Manitoulin Island.

♦Answer to your sixth question: Yes, you are looking for the Ottawa dialect of Anishinaabemowin, if you are looking at a predominantly Odawa, but as said before, other than the otw, there are ojc, ojg and pot spoken there as well. This was part of the reason why when Richard Rhodes compiled the Eastern Ojibwa-Chippewa-Ottawa Dictionary (Hardbound - ISBN-10: 0899251145/ISBN-13: 978-0899251141; Paperback - ISBN-10: 3110137496/ISBN-13: 978-3110137491), he grouped them together in this work. He also breaks down collection of communities with these codes in that dictionary:

1. (unmarked) - common to both Jibwemwin and Daawaamwin
   1. Oj - common to Jibwemwin
      1. CL - found in Curve Lake, ON
      2. R - found in Rama, ON
   2. Od - common to Dawaamwin
      1. BC - found in Bay City, MI
      2. CC - used by a speaker from Cape Croaker, ON
      3. CV - used by a speaker from Cross Village, MI
      4. M - found on Manitoulin Island
      5. S - used by a speaker from Sarnia, ON
      6. W - found on Walpole Island
   3. Pot - words that came from Potawatomi

The other "standard" work for the Nishnaabemwin, other than Rhodes' "EOCOD", is Rand Valentine's Nishnaabemwin Reference Grammar (Hardbound - ISBN-10: 0802048706/ISBN-13: 978-0802048707; Paperback - ISBN-10: 0802083897/ISBN-13: 978-0802083890). CJLippert 14:17, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

According to our artice Ottawa (First Nation), the Ottawa (Odawa) language is considered a divergent dialect of the Ojibwe language, the latter being also considered a group of languages and then called, also including Algonquin, Anishinaabemowin. So, apparently, Odawa is a dialect of (a language belonging to) Ojibwe (also called Ojibway or Ojibwa). The Ethnologue report on Ottawa calls its use "Vigorous on Manitoulin Island". This is the only language for which the reports mention Manitoulin Island, so it must be the major indiginous language there (and thus apparently including Wiky), even if, as the report states, all speakers are bilingual or trilingual: "All speakers also use English, some use other Ojibwa varieties."

I can't help you with the other questions; perhaps some other user can, but this is very specialized. But I bet that among the linguistics departments of the universities in Ontario there are linguists with a special interest in Anishinaabemowin languages and dialects, who can refer you to proposals or standards of orthography and phonological studies, if such exist (and I bet they do). I hope this answer is helpful.  --Lambiam 14:01, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Standard for writing out numbers

I've always been told, you write out any number under 10 and use the numbers for 10 and above (i.e. "He has seven cars." vs "He has 12 cars." Is this proper form for Misplaced Pages articles? LaraLove/_Contribs 04:57, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Usually, except "ten" goes the other way. See Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Numbers in words. --Anonymous, May 9, 2007, 06:01, corrected 10:12 (UTC).

Huh. I had always heard to write out any number expressible in a single word (one through twenty, as well as thirty, forty, fifty, sixty, seventy, eighty, ninety, hundred, thousand, million, etc.). —Angr 14:56, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

This is a style question. Having worked for several publishers, I can report that the style for writing out numbers varies depending on the publisher, and sometimes depending on the publication. What does not vary is that a given style should be applied consistently throughout a publication, document, or series of documents. If Misplaced Pages's style is to write out numbers below 10 but to use numerals from 10 up, then you should adhere to that for Misplaced Pages. I have also seen 13 and 21 used as cut-off points below which numbers are written out. Incidentally, most style guides called for writing out any number that begins a sentence (though that usage should be avoided for large numbers.) Marco polo 15:31, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Still another style that some of us techies prefer is to use digits for any number that's viewed as a simple count or measurement, no matter how small. Thus "He has 3 cars", just a count, but "He has three cars: a Ford, a Lincoln, and a Roosevelt", viewing them as three different things. But that's certainly not Misplaced Pages style. --Anonymous, May 10, 2007, 05:54 (UTC).

Or in mathematics, where you might "take two 3-manifolds; if one is a knot complement, then there exists exactly one harmonic 1-form on it." "Adding 2 to a number preserves its parity; adding two even or two odd numbers results in an even number." etc. Tesseran 18:45, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29#Numbers_in_words Unimaginative Username 02:57, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

german translation

hello

right now i'm in primary school and my german lote teacher has given the yr 7s a german weather report speech as an assignment (or project) and i have to do a weather report for 6 different cities around the world. but i'm having trouble translating what i want to say , from english to german. could you please help me find what these words/sentences are in german (it's a pretty long list): _______________________________________________________________________

degrees celcius (as in 24 degrees).

In paris, it is the middle of winter and it is very cold. It is snowing and it’s very dry. Not ideal if you are trying to avoid bad hair days.

In cairo it is scorching hot and also very dry. The sun is up every day, so wear a hat and sunscreen if you are planning to visit.

Over on the other side of the world.

beijing, los angeles, brisbane, amsterdam. _______________________________________________________________________

i really appreciate you helping me. i'm not really good at german,but i want to get a good mark on my report card.

thankyouHamburgla 08:51, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, we won't do your homework for you, but here are some links that may be helpful:

• de:Wettervorhersage, the article on Weather forecasting at the German Misplaced Pages
• Wetterzentrale, a German weather forecast site, where you can read Wettervorhersagen in German.

This may help you to find the right words and expressions to use in your weather report. And, by studying this, you will actually improve your German-language skills, which is more important than good marks on your report card.  --Lambiam 08:54, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

thankyou for the help lambiam!

What's the "shiz-niggle?"

I've searched for a definitition and derivation of the term "shiz-niggle" without success.

I have heard and read it used in describing a noun, e.g., he's the shiz-niggle.

I'm new at posting here and I hope this is an appropriate query.

BeeSssJay 11:32, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Complete guess here, I would say it's a continuation of shit --> shiz --> shizzle --> shiz-niggle, so therefor he's "the shit". Someone might have a better answer though. 213.48.15.234 12:27, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

For those not familiar with this colloquial usage, calling something or someone the shit conveys a very favourable view on it, like saying it's the bee's knees. See our Shit article, which is quite the shit. Indeed, the uses of shizniggle on the Internet appear to have the same meaning. (Most uses I could find spell it without hyphen.) In – I can't link this live because blog.myspace.com is on the Spam blacklist – it is used in combination with the shit, and in a grammatically freer way: I finally went out and bought my new car and holy friggin shizniggle, I love this car. Infiniti G35's are the shit.  --Lambiam 13:14, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

You, Lambiam, are the shizizznizziggle-nizzigglizziggle-iggleniz. What? No article? 213.48.15.234 13:37, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

An interesting read on the "iz" infix and the "izzle" suffix is here, which I found in a reference on the Snoop Dogg page, the performer who popularized this particular form of slang. --LarryMac 13:54, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

In Victoria, Australia "the shizz" (or shiz - I'm not sure how it's spelt) means the tops, or the best. It may or may not be related. Storeye 06:03, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

It's precisely related, as it's an abbreviation of shizniggle, and means exactly the same as above! Natgoo 10:38, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I reckon it could also be related to relatively early "shiznit" or could be derived from something like "it's the shit, nigger". Chances are, though, that it's just made up. Aaadddaaammm 03:38, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

See also -izzle. jnestorius 18:04, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Japanese questions

Hello. I've recently started learning Japanese (only started a couple weeks ago), but there are a few small things I've come across that I'm curious about. I've got hiragana, katakana and some basic Kanji down, and am learning some vocab in tandem, just to give you an idea of where I'm at. So far I've been unable to find any answers through conventional means, so if anyone could answer I'd be grateful.

~ In written Japanese are there no clearly seperate "words"? Just an observation, but when presented with a block of text I'm often at a loss as to where a new word begins and ends, as there dont seem to be any discernable spaces. Is this overcome by Japanese by just recognising each word as its read, or is there something I'm missing (looking at particles or other signs)?

~ Learning Kanji. I suppose this is the crux of why Japanese is so hard to learn, but it seems like there's alot of stuff to remember even with one Kanji. The character itself, the stroke order, on and kun readings, what they mean and how they should be used seem pretty hard to memorise in "raw" form. I suppose what I'm asking is: has anyone come across an effective method of linking these things together, or just making them easier to remember by way of a system?

Thanks for your time folks, any answers would be appreciated. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.145.242.23 (talk) 15:11, 9 May 2007 (UTC).

Japanese is one of the world's easiest languages to learn how to speak, but at the same time is one of the world's hardest languages to learn to read and write. The short answer is "No, Japanese is generally not written with spaces between words". This means, you have to know not only the single Kanji words, but multiple Kanji words (but most are in groups of 2 - though there may be several of these groupings strung together). In addition, the Kana, like the Kanji, are written without spaces as well, which means you have to know when to read the Kana as a pure phonetic element or when to read it with a special pronunciation due to its grammatical function... which just means practice, practice, practice. Don't sweat. Even Japanese have problems. As for the On/Kun readings, this too do have some flexibility, so don't get hung up on it. The best way is to take in the concept of the word and not down to the mechanics of the word. Focus on how the language is spoken, and then just drudge away at making the written language fit the spoken. Sorry if this wasn't too helpful. CJLippert 15:36, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Here are some general rules. Kanji are usually (but not always) pronounced in their On form when they are in groups of 2 or more. They are usually pronounced with their Kun form when they are on their own, and very often they are accompanied by hiragana in this case. Speaking about the kana not having any spaces, I know of a particular example that usually can be worked out by context:

Sign at the entrance of a hotel or hot spring: ここではきものをぬいでください。 Is that 'kokode, hakimono wo nuide kudasai' or 'kokodewa, kimono wo nuide kudasai'?

You just get used to it after a while. Scouse Mouse - 日英翻訳 19:33, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Kanji are hopelessly complex, and the Japanese managed to lumber themselves permanently with a system totally unsuited to representing their language that just has to be learnt by brute force of memorisation, but there are few bits of good news. First is that even the most complex kanji are always made up of a few smaller ones bunched together as one. Once you know a mere 800 or so basic kanji, you'll find it reasonably easy to pick up the complex ones because you can think ah, this one's just a composite of three kanji: 'rain' on top, 'foot' bottom left, and 'ritual self-immolation' bottom right.

Second is that Japanese can make a huge range of very subtle compound words by combining sequences of kanji. It's a bit similar to the way in which we can coin words in English from Latin or Greek roots: if I made up a word like 'symphonophobia', for instance, you'd probably guess that it was something to do with a fear of large-scale orchestral music based on a logically evolving motivic premise. Well, Japanese can do stuff like that all the time. The catch is that, because it's written in kanji, you'd know exactly what it meant at a glance if you encountered it in print, but might not be sure of the pronunciation. Even if you were, the pronunciation would be so bland thanks to all those pesky homophones that the spoken result wouldn't be comprehensible (it would just sound like another jumble of koh, kyoh, kyo, ku, sha, shi, ka etc).

In short: kanji are maddening but fascinating, with a magnificent illogic all of their own. If you like language you'll love delving into their complexities and quirky beauties. And (just as English speakers love talking about our comically inconsistent spelling) the Japanese love talking about kanji as this monstrous but strangely rewarding shared burden. It's a wonderful and intriguing system; it's just rubbish for writing a language with. All in my humble experience anyway etc. RA —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.66.229.8 (talk) 08:50, 10 May 2007 (UTC).

Basicaly, there are 1600 kanji that people learn up to high school, and then another 400 extra ones that do not have to be strictly learnt at school, but do help when reading newspapers and literature. However, there are over 6,000 kanji in use (not exactly daily use), and as said above, there are new ones being either imported from China or being newly constructed. The traditional kanji are the easiest to remember to read, as the modernized ones tend to have lost some of the 'logic' in them. There was no real standard-simplification rules for the kanji, which is also compounded even more in Japan as only some of the simplified kanji were borrowed from China, whereas Japan simplified others in their own way, and furthermore, both simplified and unsimplified are in current use.

The biggest problem, however, is with names of people and places. People's family names are fairly straight-forward, as there are not many of them. Given names are harder, as someone may have a 'standard' standard name, like 'Shinji' or 'Emiko', but if you don't know the person it can be very hard to work out the actual pronunciation of the name. Plave names are worse. Sometimes, like 東京 'Tokyo', it is very straightforward, but the smaller towns can have names where the kanji is the same as one of the major towns (神戸 'kobe', 'kanbe', depending on which town you are talking about), or the kanji might be completely unrelated. Plus, the Japanese pronunciation of Chinese place names will either have its own Japanese pronunciation of the name, or the 'English' pronunciation, like 北京 'Pekin' and 香港 'Honkon'.Scouse Mouse - 日英翻訳 12:51, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the answers guys. It seems alot of Japanese relies on the context of the conversation/writing your reading, rather than the definitiveness of an isolated statement. I guess its something you get accustomed to the more you practice, but it is strange when you first start learning.

So with the Japanese language as a whole, does anyone who's studied it have any general tips or methods of learning they've found effective? It seems every book and website suggests different styles of learning, how much to learn in a given time, etc. For example, I've seen some suggest learning to speak Japanese before even picking up a pen to write it (just listening and reading romaji), while others discourage the use of romaji. Just wondered if you guys who've been there and done it have any wise words.

Thanks again in advance. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.145.241.7 (talk) 23:14, 10 May 2007 (UTC).

What works for one person may not work for the next. Also, an approach that is good if you spend eight hours or more a day studying Japanese may be less effective if you spend no more than ten hours a week on it. Keeping that in mind, learning to read and write katakana and hiragana really well is relatively easy and almost certainly worth the investment. My advice, for what it is worth (my efforts to learn Japanese have had very limited success), is to also start early with learning kanji: since it will take you a couple of years to master this, you don't want to start late. Make sure you learn, with each character, how to write it with the correct stroke order. But take it easy, say one character a day, and as CJLippert already said, concentrate on the meaning and don't sweat memorizing the on and kun readings – they will come naturally as your Japanese improves. Don't expect, though, that in this stage you will be able to understand a text, even if you already know all characters; usually you won't be able to. So this is all next to and relatively independent of learning the (spoken) language. If you are immersed in a context where people constantly teach you spoken Japanese and patiently listen to your fumbling attempts to speak it, then by all means skip reading & writing romaji texts. Otherwise, I don't see how avoiding romaji can be helpful. Once you have reached the stage that you comprehend most romaji texts without too much effort, start reading texts in the Japanese writing system with a comparable level of complexity. In the end, the only thing that works is practice.  --Lambiam 17:11, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Most beginners' manuals worth their salt actually have sentences written in more or less standard written Japanese (i.e. with level-appropriate kanji) and include furigana (kana on top of the kanji to show the pronunciation). These type of books allow you to get used to seeing the language written at the same time as being able to pronounce the sentence properly (and look up words you don't know in a dictionary). As reading material for when your language gets a bit better, I would definitely recommend manga, as they are almost all written like this. Scouse Mouse - 日英翻訳 19:28, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that seems to be the general consensus, going by what other people have said too. Thanks for the help guys.

BTW Scouse Mouse, just read your profile, and blog, nice to see a fellow brit. What's it like actually living out there, if I may be so bold?

Some help with a German word

The name for the Rhine river in German, "Rhein", is very perplexing to me in terms of how to pronounce it...I'm a Spanish student, and pretty much the only word I know in German is how to say "bless you". Is the Rhine river pronounced like "rain", or is it obvious and pronounced like its English name? --Kitty 23:59, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation of der Rhein, via dict.leo.org. Jacek Kendysz 00:15, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Link doesn't work for me. o_O --Kitty 01:30, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

It sounds like "rine", with a German R sound.--Sonjaaa 04:29, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Okie dokie, thank you. --Kitty 12:57, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

May 10

English sounds like. . .

Most languages seem (at least to me) to have a unique sound. For instance, although I do not know German, I recognize it by its guttural sounds. I don’t know any Indonesian languages, but I find that many place a lot of emphasis on open mouth sound, particularly –ongs and -uls. (Not unlike Gamelan Music.) So my question is, to a non-native speaker, what is English’s characteristic sound or personification? What sounds do people use to identify English? S.dedalus 04:38, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Well: We do not have the gutteral "r" of German, the trilled "r" of Russian, or the "ch" of German. We do have an "h" that I think French at least doesn't have. umm... We have no particiular system of connecting words together to sound nice (such as Turkish's euphony rules or the complicated rules about French constanants on the end of words) which may lead to clashing parts of speech. We have no specific voice modulation for words like there is in Thai and many other Asian languages. It is a very Europeany/Romancy language. errr... I would personally think of English as very plain, unmusical, yet varied in vowel sounds. Others may disagree, and of course, a language sounds different when spoken by different people or in different places. Hope that helps Storeye 06:14, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Now I think I’m developing an inferiority complex :-) S.dedalus 07:02, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

This question probably needs a non-native English speaker to answer it, but I'd say somewhere between German and French (our two major language influences).Cyta 07:35, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

One thing English has that a lot of languages don't is the two different "th" sounds. --Anon, May 10, 08:13 (UTC).

I think the most obvious sound in English that identifies it as "English" for someone that does not speak English is the "r". The English r is very particular among European languages, I can't think of any other European language that has that sound. On the coneither roll it like the Spanish or Russian "r", or gutturalise it like the French or the German "r". There may be other languages in the World that have that soft r like in English, but I have not heard of them. Now Lambiam or some other Ref desk guru is shoot down my theory :-) Lgriot 08:29, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

FWIW, a common imitation of native English (esp. US) speakers by foreigners is to insert a lot of rolled Rs (even when not speaking English). I guess that also mimics the way that American L2 learners sound when trying to speak a foreign language. Well, I know at least one :-). Duja►

The sound you linked to (also known as alveolar trill, IPA /r/) does not occur in English – except Scottish English. You probably mean the alveolar approximant, IPA /ɹ/, which occurs in rhotic accents of English. It is not rolled but produced by a steady airflow.  --Lambiam 14:03, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Besides the consonant clusters that do not occur in some other languages, and the unusual consonants of English (consontal 'r' and the voiced and unvoiced 'th'), English is unusual in the prevalence of schwas. Most unstressed syllables have this vowel. Only stressed syllables have strong vowels. To speakers of other languages, English may sound like a series of staccato syllables with strange consonants and schwas, punctuated by long stressed vowels. Even the stressed vowels tend to at least start as central or open vowels, though many of them are diphthongs that end in close vowels. English has fewer strong close vowels and than most other languages. So English probably sounds rather consonantal and mid-mouth to speakers of other languages. Marco polo 14:41, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Northumbrian English has a strong Germanic "r" sound, quite unlike the Scottish "r" which is more of a trill. --Tony Sidaway 17:04, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

To the original questioner: I'm a native speaker of both Spanish and Catalan and, since a very very young age, I've always recognized English by a perceived omnipresence of "r"s. The great difference between English r and the Spanish and Catalan ones was probably responsible in part for this. When I was about three years old and I saw someone speaking English on TV, I was like "hey, this guy only says something like wrourrarruour". --Taraborn 13:30, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I wonder whether that's partly because of the reduction of unstressed vowels, as Marco noted above, to what can pass for a nonrhotic /r/ (if that's not an oxymoron). Without that, I imagine that the large repertoire of vowels would stand out. —Tamfang 21:54, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

in too deep

im just curious to know what "in too deep" means in the song that has the line "coz im in too deep, and im trying to keep up above in my head..."

The phrase "in too deep" means that you've gotten into a situation that you can't handle and things are overwhelming you. The lyrics, as you posted them, don't really make any sense. "I'm trying to keep up above in my head" just doesn't make grammatical sense. Dismas| 13:12, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

"In too deep" implies that one is in water over one's head, and presumably can't swim. I read "Trying to keep up above" in the sense of trying to keep one's head above the water. Here is further discussion of this very lyric (albeit with a not-too-friendly tone). See also idiom --LarryMac 13:19, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

thank you.. you have been very helpful. Carlrichard 19:13, 14 May 2007 (UTC)210.1.82.53 06:12, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Translate "Be all that you can be" into German

The US Army used to have a slogan: "Be all the you can be". How would you translate this into german-- it's a very nonstandard use of "be" and the tenses are insane? Now that I think about it, I'm suprised I can even understand "Be all that you can be" in English, although that's my native language.

Bonus points if we can find a translation that was "official", i.e. used by the US Army. --Alecmconroy 16:30, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I find nothing non-standard about it.

• Be all that you can be.
• Eat all that you can eat.
• Go everywhere that you can go.

These are all fine, IMHO. --Kjoonlee 17:14, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

"Sei alles was Du sein kannst." 213.201.189.242

The first 'be' is imperative mood — it's a command — while the second is infinitive as it's the object of 'can'. As a slogan, and a rather poor one at that, it should, perhaps, read „Seien Sie alles, daß Sie sein können“, but I'm not entirely sure about it. — Gareth Hughes 16:31, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but I like the anon's version better. First, I think "du" is better in this context (it's supposed to reach you on a personal level). Second, "daß" is wrong, it has to be "das" (it's a relative clause). And finally, I'd never use "alles, das" but "alles, was" (this is purely my gut feeling, but I think it's because no actual object is given). </nitpick> --Dapeteばか 19:34, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Yep, "alles" always takes "was" as a relative pronoun. "Alles das" or "alles dass" is incorrect. -Elmer Clark 01:01, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

"Be quiet!" "Be careful!" More examples of "be" as a command, as Kjoonlee said. The slogan might be more clear if "become" were used: "Become all that you can become", i. e., "Become as good as you can possibly become". "Be" is shorter and catchier. Does that help any with the English version? Unimaginative Username 04:18, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Translating "pickles" into french

I've looked in dictionaries and asked french canadians how to say "pickles" in french. (I was wondering because i work at a Subway in New Hampshire and get customers who speak french.) Despite my research attemps I can't find a sound answer to my question. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 132.177.70.228 (talk) 17:00, 10 May 2007 (UTC).

I think the word you are looking for is cornichon. "Pickles" would be "des cornichons". - Eron 17:04, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I wonder if that translation was used for Stu Pickles, Didi Pickles, Dil Pickles, Angelica Pickles, and Tommy Pickles in Rugrats in Paris: The Movie. StuRat 03:00, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I am not familiar with the New Hampshire use of the term pickle. For pickle in the sense of "(pickled) gherkin", cornichon is right. If pickle is used for "(pickle) relish" (typically chopped, not necessarily (only) gherkins), then it appears the French for this is also relish, as in: Avec de la relish?.  --Lambiam 09:41, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Never heard of relish in France. My dictionnary gives the French word achards (alaways plural) for relish. My French dictionnary gives pickles as a synonym for achards.195.33.65.134 16:29, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

This may be Canadian French. Achards appears to be more like Indian pickle (also known as achar). No cucumbers but other vegetables like for example beans, carrots, cauliflower, and cabbage, and typically containing turmeric. Indonesian acar is similar, but seems to contain no oil.  --Lambiam

You are right. The Grand dictionnaire terminologique , from the Office Québecois de la langue française translates "relish" by relish and adds a note: ((Le nom de ce)) condiment américain est intraduisible en français d'autant plus que le mot lui-même veut dire goût, saveur, soupçon, amuse-gueule, condiment ou assaisonnement

Ce condiment nord-américain sucré est bien éloigné des achards dont certains ont songé à lui donner le nom. 195.33.65.134 06:47, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Znüni

Can anyone impart some wisdom? Is Znüni Masc. or neut.? It's a type of snack if that helps. MHDIV ɪŋglɪʃnɜː(r)d(Suggestion?|wanna chat?) 20:01, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

According to Duden Deutsches Universalwörterbuch it can be either masculine or neuter. (My nonnative intuition favors the neuter, though, because it's a diminutive.) It's discussed at de:Zwischenmahlzeit#Vesper, Znüni und Zvieri, but only occurs either without overt case/gender marking or in the dative, so you can't tell which those authors prefer. —Angr 20:18, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Our article Helvetism also has "der/das Znüni".  --Lambiam 09:50, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Masculine and neuter are both acceptable in Swiss German dialects and in Standard German (as a borrowed helvetism - see the article Lambiam linked to). There are regional preferences, but there is also the phenomenon of flexible license, perhaps more so in spoken dialects with few standardized and codified norms. As a native speaker, my usage is inconsistent, and I believe I use both grammatical genders for all the names of meals beginning with the letter 'Z':

es or en Zmorge (breakfast, from zum Morge, to/with morning)

es or en Znüni (morning snack (or second breakfast?), from zum Nüni, to/with nine o'clock (am Nüni means at nine o'clock. The noun nine is Nüni (neuter), not an unflexed Nün/Neun (f) like in Standard German. I don't think 'Znüni' is a diminutive.)

es or en Zmittag (lunch, from zum Mittag, to/with noon)

es or en Zvieri (afternoon snack, from zum Vieri, to/with four o'clock. vier/Vieri same numerical substantivation as with 'nün/Nüni')

es or en Zabig (dinner/supper in some dialects, from zum Abig, to/with evening)

es or en Znacht (dinner/supper in other dialects, from zu de Nacht, to/with night).

For a text written in Standard German, I'd probably choose the masculine version. To my ears, it would give the word more of a Helvetic feel in a German Umfeld. ---Sluzzelin talk 11:51, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

May 11

Can you all help?

Which of the following is wrong?

you will = you'll. you all = you'll.

Zain Ebrahim 11:52, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I've never heard of you all being shortened to you'll. The nearest shortening of You all that I have heard of is the American Y'all. - X201 11:58, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the above. 213.48.15.234 12:47, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Our article Y'all mentions some evidence suggesting that y'all is not actually a contraction of you all; see under Controversy.  --Lambiam 13:13, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

In South Africa, "You all" is shortened in some communities to "you'll" (pronounced "Yoll") - but this is certainly slang (sometimes we call it 'Kitchen English' which is an extention of Kitchen Zulu which is a common vernacular spoken by South African indigenous people so that they can understand each other - much like Swahili is spoken in Africa) Sandman30s 13:31, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Comma question

How would this exhortation be: "Learn to speak, man" or "Learn to speak man"? --Taraborn 13:32, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

The first, with a comma. See also this earlier question: What's the rule that.... If, contrariwise, you wanted someone to become able to speak Manx, the commendation would be: "Learn to speak Manx", without comma.  --Lambiam 13:48, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, thanks. Just wanted this as a proof against an idiot that claims the other one :) --Taraborn 15:16, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

"Learn to speak man" could have an interesting interpretation: "Movie very good, many big explosions, many naked women, me much like". :-) StuRat 00:30, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

It could be advice to a nonhuman going into interstellar trade. —Tamfang 04:59, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Rasputin

Hiya, does any one know where i can get books written by Rasputin? He supposidly wrote a few one called: My life in Christ and another called: My thoughts and meditations. Among others. Are these available in English? And if so where? NB, I am not interested in books about him, that I already know. I want to read what he had to say Thanks Guys81.144.161.223 14:10, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

You've asked this before, and received rather extensive answers: . --LarryMac | Talk 14:21, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

True, but I did not have any luck in finding his books. Therefore I have asked again. Sorry, but i really need this. Thanks again. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.144.161.223 (talk) 14:45, 11 May 2007 (UTC).

Well, as indicated on the linked archive page, it doesn't appear that Rasputin wrote anything called My Life In Christ, and perhaps the only way to get My Thoughts and Meditations in English is from the Maria Rasputin book, My Father. Since that book is out of print, you would need to find it in a library or from a used book seller. I note that AbeBooks.com and it's counterpart in the UK AbeBooks.co.uk both list available copies. --LarryMac | Talk 16:33, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Just to confirm, based on library catalog information: Mariia Grigor’evna Rasputina's My life does supposedly contain "My thoughts and meditations, by Gregory Rasputin. ": pp. -157. Also, "The Story of the Revolution was written by Rasputin, and done into a booklet by Fra Pir Bakks."—this note appears in the said booklet, which was published : Benares & Co., 1934 (just a little pamphlet: 31 pp.). The only library in WorldCat that owns it is Cornell University. Wareh 19:31, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Breathless Whispy sort of sound

I'm trying to think of a word to describe the soft, breathless, whispy, comforting and even slightly sexy sounding female voice when used by female singers, such as Amy Lee on Hello, KT Tunstall on Heal Over, Dido's general sound and many others I like such as Dar Williams or Beth Nielsen Chapman occasionally.Scraggy4

In phonetics I believe this is known (logically enough) as breathy voice. Gandalf61 20:27, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Why is it logical to call a breathless voice a breathy voice?  --Lambiam 21:09, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

A breathless voice would be no voice at all. A breathy voice emphasizes the sound of breathing. —Tamfang 22:37, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I once (honestly!) told a woman that her voice was like the low notes of a flute. --TotoBaggins 21:51, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Why not tell her it was like the brown note ? StuRat 23:14, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

May 12

Spear/Distaff or Paternal/Maternal?

What is the difference and which one should I use? 69.218.237.116 00:24, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

In what context ? StuRat 00:26, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

'Spear' and 'distaff' to mean male and female respectively are examples of metonymy; but while 'distaff' used to be commonplace, I don't think 'spear' was so common in this sense. 'Paternal' and 'maternal' for these purposes are examples of synecdoche, unless you are referring specifically to male and female as parents, in which case they are literal terms, but fairly high-register ones (compared, say, to 'fatherly' and 'motherly').

Any of these may be appropriate depending on the context and what effect you are trying to achieve. --ColinFine 07:55, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Children, Offspring, Infants, Issues, Progeny

What is the difference between the words that are mentioned above? 69.218.237.116 00:28, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

See Child, Offspring, Infant, Issue, and Progeny. -Elmer Clark 01:13, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Serbian sign at a church

I was recently at the Serbian Orthodox church in my area (which has a large Yugoslav community), and I saw this engraved into a stone on the side of a building in the church's annexe. It has a date - September 15, 1991 - and some of the Cyrillic letters look very old fashioned, like the sort of thing the Russians expunged from the alphabet after the revolution, though I could be entirely mistaken here.

Here's a picture of the sign, could anyone tell me what it says? —DO'Neil 01:04, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

They are ordinary Serbian letters, and transliterate as 'osvećenje temelja obavljeno'. I'm not sure what it means, but this page about Belgrade has the exact phrase in it, under the heading 'CRKVA SVETOG ALEKSANDRA NEVSKOG' ('Church of St. Alexander Nevskiy'!), and the context seems to be something like 'building completed in'. I note that 'temelja' appears in the Bosnian version of Five pillars of Islam, but I suspect the meaning is 'foundation' or 'building' rather than literally 'pillar'. --ColinFine 08:12, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I think the phrase means something like "The inauguration ceremony of the foundation was performed on".  --Lambiam 09:17, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Serbian does have six(?) letters not used in Russian, and this sign shows three of them. —Tamfang 21:49, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

The sign literally says "Foundations were consecrated in 15. 09. 1991." Check out Consecrated#Consecration of a church. Shinhan 08:00, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Shakespeare past tense

I'm reading Romeo and Juliet right now, and many past tense words are written with an "é." Using the word "belovéd" as an example, would I pronounce the "éd" as a separate syllable, or should I pronounce it like "belov'd"? bibliomaniac15 03:45, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

The accent has been placed there by the (helpful) editor to let you know that it should be a separate syllable, in order to fit the meter, so "belovéd" should be 3 syllables, not 2. If two were required by the meter, the same editor might let you know by writing "belov'd". - Nunh-huh 04:10, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Usually it's a grave accent: è, not é. In some editions of Chaucer's poetry, a dieresis diacritic can be used -- ё -- to indicate word-final E that wasn't actually silent, but counted as a separate syllable with respect to the poetic metres used. AnonMoos 16:35, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Tolkien, in spelling Quenya, used the diaeresis in that way (a point not grasped by all fans). —Tamfang 21:45, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

The New Yorker and I think also The Economist still do, for words like "coöperate". --TotoBaggins 12:03, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Re Chaucer, mentioned above, the matter of his meter is quite controversial. In Chaucer, it's a safe rule to pronounce any final e written (in the best manuscripts) except for cases of elision (and it's the degree to which elision should be applied to regularize his meter that's controverted: the number of stresses per line may be fairly regular, but there seems to be some freedom in adding extra syllables between them), so I'm not sure that such diaereses are either helpful or widely used in Chaucer texts. But I'm no expert on this. Wareh 13:57, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

"at a loss" vs. "at loss"

What is the difference in meaning between "at a loss" and "at loss"? or Is it that only the fist one is grammatically correct? Thanks 196.12.53.9 10:47, 12 May 2007 (UTC)Vineet chaitanya

At a loss literally means: "at less than cost". If you sell goods at less than cost, you are making a financial loss. To be at a loss for something is further idiom for being utterly flummoxed at how to arrive at the desired something – usually a solution to a problem. In both cases it is unusual to omit the article a before loss, but not unreasonable to do so in "telegram style", as used for instance in newspaper headlines. There is no separate specific meaning for "at loss".  --Lambiam 12:16, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

My gut says the short form is less likely to be used in the second sense. —Tamfang 21:43, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Then you must be a ventriloquist! My gut agrees with your gut, and so does Google search: # : # = ~47000 : ~97; # : # = ~29000 : ~27, or (relatively) more than twice as infrequent.  --Lambiam 22:38, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for the detailed explanation as well as information about frequency of use. 196.12.53.9 05:24, 14 May 2007 (UTC)Vineet Chaitanya

Does not "at a loss" mean something like you forgot about what you had been talking about all the time, so you stopped and started thinking about your last words, and said "Fellas, i'm at a loss."? or maybe there is another term for that. What do you think? Correct me if i'm wrong. 210.5.95.46 18:53, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

It does. I think Lambiam covered that above, when he said '... being utterly flummoxed at how to arrive at the desired something'. --ColinFine 22:18, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

English to Latin Translation

How do you say:

"This is my mother" in Latin?

I can't decide if "my mother" goes in nominative or genitive.

Hic est meae matris. Hic est meus mater —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.15.52.92 (talk) 20:10, 12 May 2007 (UTC).

Haec est mea mater.

Only the possessor takes the genitive: "my" (mea) is genitive but "mother" (mater) is nominative. (It doesn't help that "my" is a genitive adjective rather than a standard genitive.) Also, haec and mea need to be feminine to agree with mater. --Ptcamn 20:30, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

If "my" is supposed to be genitive, then shouldn't it be "meae"?

There's nothing genitive at all about mea: mea is a possessive adjective in the nominative case. (You would only use the genitive, meae matris, if you wanted to say "of my mother"). --Lazar Taxon 20:59, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

As I said in parentheses, the genitive adjective complicates things. Meus/mea/meum, in its various forms, serves as the genitive of ego; it also happens to inflect for case to agree with the possessed noun. --Ptcamn 21:13, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

No, the genitive of ego is mei. Mea is not a "genitive adjective" but rather a possessive adjective (the term used by my Oxford Latin grammar and every other source I've seen). --Lazar Taxon 21:19, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

This is just terminology. My translation is still correct, isn't it? --Ptcamn 21:25, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, your translation is correct. ;-) --Lazar Taxon 21:26, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

While correct, a more common word order would be Haec est mater mea.  --Lambiam 22:24, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

name this gesture

One day a neighbor, seeing me get into my car, asked – in gestures – whether to move her car out of my way. I responded by showing her both palms, waggling each hand as if trying to clean a window between us, signifying that she shouldn't bother. As I drove away, I thought: is there a word for that gesture? (I thought of jazz hands but the oscillation mentioned there seems to be on a different axis.) —Tamfang 21:40, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I cannot find this listed in our Hand gesture article – which suffers from a lack of source citations, and is unclear about the (presumably limited) cultural scope of most gestures listed. While I have not been able to find a name for this two-handed window-cleaner gesture, the basic meaning of the gesture as I know it (in which the hands move in mirror motion) is: I decline the offer.  --Lambiam 23:05, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

how bout calling it a double-moutza...that one seems close. With the wiggling, maybe a howlin-double-moutza-burgerGabenowicki 23:25, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I always thought the gesture meant to show you cleaning off a chalkboard, so "deleting" an offer. StuRat 05:29, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I would call it a "never mind" gesture, and google shows a few relevant hits for "never mind gesture" and "never mind wave".--Pharos 06:44, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Let my correct that. The phrases "dismissive wave" or "dismissive gesture" (the latter of course often a figure of speech) seem most common. There's some discussion of this category of gesture here.--Pharos 07:01, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Too broad; if I see "dismissive gesture" in a narration, my mental image has the character holding the hand out with thumb up and flapping it in a direction perpendicular to the palm; chasing away a fly rather than wiping a vertical surface. —Tamfang 07:18, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

This reflects a problem also seen in identifying symbols: should the name describe the form (shape) or reflect the function? Several symbols are in use for logical and, so don't use and sign when you mean the wedge-shaped symbol ⋀. A case in point among gestures is the designation beckoning sign; different cultures use different gestures for beckoning, and what functions as a gentle beckoning gesture in one culture may not work (and come across as rude) in another. For such reasons, it is (in my opinion) better to use descriptive names (with or without cheese, but go easy on the onions).  --Lambiam 10:45, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Along these lines, while reading part of the Vorkosigan Saga I noticed that the phrase palm-out gesture kept occurring, and wondered what the hell it meant. For two senses of "mean". —Tamfang 03:52, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

With cheeseGabenowicki 08:41, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Scottish 'sh'

I've noticed several Scottish people pronounce 's' as a 'sh', much like the s in spiel or sport in German. Ally McCoist and Sean Connery are known to do it. The phrase "You're a sight for sore eyes" is often attributed to Connery.

How widespread is it? I've often wondered if it was a regional thing - e.g. is it more noticeable or common in Glaswegians than Highlanders? And is it derived from nature or nurture? Thanks for any answers/suggestions. Sʟυмgυм • т • c  23:27, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

They did parody Sean Connery's reverse lisp (if I may call it that) in Celebrity Jeopardy (Saturday Night Live). bibliomaniac15 00:27, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I think it's more of a Glaswegian thing, but I'm no expert on Scottosh accents. There's a story (probably an urban myth) that lots of people in Glasgow had their teeth taken out (replaced with dentures or something), and the children imitated the sound their parents then made. Drmaik 09:19, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Well with their taste for Deep-fried Mars Bars it's not impossible ;) 137.138.46.155 11:18, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

To sthart with Shean Connery is (originally) from Edinburgh, sho doesh not have a Glaswegian accshent, i think Ally is from Glasgow, but speaking as a Scot, the Sh sound is more to do with a speech impediment rather than a regional accent, The Namesh, Manster Perry-mankster 13:38, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

May 13

close and closed --- related?

I would like to add another question: has the word "CLOSE" ever meant "NOT OPEN"? If so, then, what dictionary cites the meaning? thank you. You have all been helpful. I am expecting a reply.

this question was ignored last time.. i hope there will be an answer to this now. thanks. Carlrichard 06:23, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, see http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=close under "–adjective", several meanings starting at 39.  --Lambiam 07:50, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Apologies, in error I stated that the question was answered last time but in fact the (similar) question which preceded it was what I was thinking of. --Alex16zx 08:02, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

ten years old?

please compare the two:

I am a ten-year old child.

I am ten years old.

I am confused. Why can we not say "I am ten-year old?" Is it because of the last word being a noun or an adjective? I hope somebody will be able to help me out on this. Please lecture me (I hope that's an appropriate word). I am really racking my brain, trying to figure out why that is so.. Thank you in advance. Carlrichard 19:10, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Normally, when you precede a measure by a quantity greater than one, the word indicating the quantity is put in the plural: We have been waiting for two hours; This pole is ten feet long. However, when such a quantified measure is used as a modifier, the singular form is used: A two-hour wait; A ten-foot pole. Now you may ask: why is "ten years" in "I am ten years old" not a modifier of "old"? Well, there is no particular good reason for why it isn't, but that is the way it has turned out in English grammar. You can also say "He was ten years of age", but not *"He was a ten-year of age child", so these are different constructions.  --Lambiam 08:07, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Although strangely, at least in British English it is perfectly normal to say This pole is ten foot long. Seems only to happen with the imperial units feet and stone(s?) though. Also in British English, ten foot poles (with which you shouldn't touch someone) are traditionally bargepoles. Cyta 08:04, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, most Brits would probably say this, but it's not standard English. In many varieties spoken in the UK counting nouns don't get pluralised: where I grew up (Tyneside) people did say I'm ten year old, as well as ten foot, even that I walked five mile (though the singular form with 'year' and 'mile' is probably rarer than with 'foot'). Drmaik 09:17, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, we do a similar thing in East Yorkshire - "he's five foot tall" , "that was ten year ago" etc. I've always assumed this was the influence of Scandinavian, where I believe the standard form for such things is the singular, but perhaps a Danish speaker can enlighten me further. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.66.229.8 (talk) 10:13, 14 May 2007 (UTC).

Indeed that seems to be a north eastern thing, I think six foot tall or weighing thirteen and a half stone (personal details revealed here!) are more universal across Britain, although I never thought about it till now. I'll have to listen out Cyta 11:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Can anyone provide a web site address that discusses more on the grammar rules on the above-mentioned sentences.. thank you? Carlrichard 19:10, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

It is mentioned (very briefly) in our article English plural, in the section Plurals and units of measure. A slightly longer discussion is here, including the observation made above by Drmaik. See also this discussion on an ESL Teachers' forum.  --Lambiam 21:04, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

May 14

Template

Has something been done to the template for this page? I seem to have lost everything that used to run down the right side of the page at the top, like, for example, the lists of the other Reference Desks. Does anyone else have this problem? Bielle 00:24, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

RefDeskBot munged up the page. I think I've fixed it. Corvus cornix 00:56, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

It looks fixed to me now. Thank you, Corvus Cornix. I had no idea what to do. Bielle 01:00, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I just went through the history of the page to find the last good one, then saw what edit made the error, then fixed it. Thanks for reporting this. Corvus cornix 01:03, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Russian Etymology - QUESTION re resources

I am seeking pleasant reading about the correlations of Russian to other IndoEur languages. One occassionally catches a glimpse, but true etymological dictionaries have not worked for me. My best hope is that some linguists have magazine articles.

Case and verb endings, pronouns, & half the prepositions ring of Latin, so I supect Kyrill & Mefodius decided to stay with that part of Slavic already spoken.

I am not interested in the tremendous borrowing from French or other clearly identified words, but the true Slavic structure, and how much is borrowed from Latin or Greek, and how much is just parallel protoEuro.

I don't have any journal articles for you, but from my own knowledge I can say this much: Cyrill and Methodius only devised a writing system, they didn't do any restructuring of the language. And while Russian certainly has some Latin and Greek (and English, French, and German) loanwords, probably the largest source of loanwords in Russian is Old Church Slavonic. —Angr 06:00, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

It is not fully clear to me what you are interested in, when you say "correlations". Etymological correspondences, such as that of Latin edere, Greek edo, Gothic etan with Russian jest "to eat", exist because all derive from the Proto Indo-European base *ed-. Likewise, grammatical correspondences with Latin, Greek, Gothic, or Sanskrit, go back to a shared correspondence with their common ancestor language. None of these languages borrowed it from any other of these languages; each inherited it from their parent language. Are you only and specifically interested in Russian, or the more general correlations of Slavic languages to other branches of the Indo-European language family? In that case, have a look at our article on Proto-Slavic. Maybe you can find the book The Dawn of Slavic (ISBN 978-0300058468) referenced there in a library; it is a pleasant read.  --Lambiam 10:24, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Publishing a fantasy novel

Hi, I have just finished the first book of my fantasy trilogy and would like to know if anyone has some first-hand experience at getting their book(s) published? I know, there are plenty of pointers and content on the web, and I have read some. I am just interested if anyone has some personal tips or suggestions to share. I am particularly concerned about someone stealing the book and publishing it (not caring about legal consequences), or even worse - leaking a copy on the internet. Thanks. Sandman30s 13:32, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

if you're worried about it being stolen, mail yourself a copy of the book and do not open it. just keep it, with the date stamp on it, in case anyone steals it. that way, it proves that you were the original author. this is what a lot of composers do with their music that they don't want stolen and if they don't want to spend the money to get it copyrighted. as far as publishing....just send it to a bunch of publishers. look up their addresses online or get one of the handy 'how to publish 2007' guides. expect rejection. most of the time it doesn't have to do with the quality of your work (well, yeah, it could). but usually a publisher will look for a certain topic ortype of fantasy novel to publish that year. maybe it's more appropriate for next year or the year after. do NOT take it personally. it's not you, it's them...as long as you wrote something halfway decent. :) i'm sure you did. when you get it published, let us all know. i'd love to read it! Coolsnak3 21:04, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Holly Lisle's web page offers a lot of good, practical advice to writers of fantasy and science fiction (and fiction writers in general). I found it really useful, when I was writing my great unpublished novel. -FisherQueen (Talk) 23:10, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. Sandman30s 12:56, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

FOULINDECHEROUS

I became a Chief Petty Officer in the Unites States Navy in 1978.

At that time I received a plaque that had portions of the Navy Chief Petty Officer Creed. Not the actual Chief Petty Officer Creed which is different.

In the particular creed, there was a word mentioned that I am unable to find. The word was defined in the creed that I received. The word was "FOULINDECHEROUS", that probably is not the correct spelling. Phonetically it would be Four in Dech Er ous.

The meaning of FOULINDECHEROUS is a person that is adept at untangling fouled ropes or in other words a person that can take a bad situation and correct it.

The Fouled Anchor is the symbol of the Navy Chief Petty Officer. Again it is an Anchor with rope Foulded around it.

I am interested in finding the correct spelling and definintion of "FOULINDECHEROUS"

Thank you in advance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NaughtyCharlie (talk • contribs)

The text of the creed found here (html) or here (PDF searching within document required) does not seem to contain any such word like "FOULINDECHEROUS". Perhaps the word refered to some other saying? -Czmtzc 16:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Decherous might be dexterous, but searching for fouling dexterous, foulingdexterous, foulindexterous and so forth yielded nothing useful either. ---Sluzzelin talk 20:53, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Could there be a relationship to one of the ships named USS Dextrous?  --Lambiam 22:02, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Here is an image of a plaque containing the creed. Again, no such word. Tugbug 22:36, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Can you give us the sentence containing the alleged word? Until you said what (you think) it means I guessed it was foul indecorous, which might well describe conduct that you pledge to abhor. —Tamfang 07:40, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

List of English letters/phonetics

Can someone give me a list of all the proununciable symbols in English? Like "a in about", "o in over", etc.? I can't find one, and I need one. Thanks. - 2-16 17:47, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

• IPA chart for English? Drmaik 18:00, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Awesome, thanks. - 2-16 18:03, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Origin of the Slang word Grand

What is the origin of the slang word grand? Example: "My car is worth 5 grand." -- 12.146.20.10 17:56, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

The Online Etymology Dictionary says it originated in American English in "underworld slang" circa 1915, based on the adjective sense of "large" or "great." --LarryMac | Talk 20:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Note also that "large" itself, like "grand", is used by some people to mean $1,000. --Anon, May 14, 21:21 (UTC).

So it "big ones". Black Carrot 06:14, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

translation for talk page

Could someone please answer the questions here regarding this URL: http://ranobe.com/up/src/up189355.jpg —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tuesday42 (talk • contribs) 20:16, 14 May 2007 (UTC).

Prestidigitation

What are some words that rhyme with and have the same number of syllables as "prestidigitation"? ❖ 23:38, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Does it have to be a single word? Lots of phrases could rhyme - "pulled up to the station", "going on vacation", "vowed to God and nation" . . . . --LarryMac | Talk 23:46, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

intercommunication though it be a barbarous utterance. meltBanana 03:23, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

And has 1 too many syllables. Polymorphisation, anti-reformation? JackofOz 03:29, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Sexualization. JackofOz 05:26, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Revandalisation. JackofOz 05:37, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Californication? Severe inebriation, via scandalous libation? Evangelization? Ex-expatriation? Black Carrot 06:09, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Polynomial integration. Black Carrot 06:11, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

If you're doing a poem about magic, how about "vapid explication" as a euphemism for patter? Black Carrot 06:12, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Grand gesticulation. Black Carrot 06:27, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Artful levitation!--killing sparrows 06:57, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Transubstantiation fits appropriately (oo flamebait!). —Tamfang 07:37, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Desertification, reillumination and pre-ejaculation. Oh, and for Tamfang, Eternal Damnation. ;) Azi Like a Fox 10:05, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Differentiation, excommunication (for Tamfang again), experimentation, naturalization, overpopulation, reconciliation, and rehabilitation. ---Sluzzelin talk 14:10, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

May 15

Pronouncing Hebrew words related to Hanukkah

My son is doing an oral presentation on Hanukkah, and we are clueless about how to pronounce the following words: Sufganiyah and Chanukkiyah.

Any clues would be most helpful. 1001001 00:08, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

For Sufganiyah: SOOF-gan-EE-ah.

For Chanukkiyah: CHAH-noo-KEE-ah.

Roughly. Neutrality 03:08, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Don't you mean HAH-noo-KEE-ah (or KHAH-noo-KEE-ah)? --Ptcamn 03:30, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

The first letter of Template:Lang-he (c)hanukkiyah is a Heth. According to our article on that letter, in Modern Israeli Hebrew it usually has the sound value of a voiceless velar fricative (/x/). This is the same sound as the "ch" in Scottish loch and German Loch. This sound may be difficult to produce for American English speakers; it is somewhat similar to /h/, but considerably rougher/harsher, due to the opening between tongue and soft palate through which the air has to pass – a bit to the front of the place of constriction for an /h/ – being constricted more. If you practice a bit, you can slide this place of constriction gradually and continuously all the way from the back (/h/) to the dental ridge (/s/) to the teeth themselves (/θ/, the sound in thin).  --Lambiam 16:11, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Errr, less scientifically, it's a noise I have found (during my travels in many different countries) to be universal - the "ch" of "chanukah" is the noise you hear before the disgusting people of all nations spit in the street; just shorter. --Dweller 16:59, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

english to hebrew language

Husbands english name is louis in hebrew it is lable. How do I write this in hebrew? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.80.182.83 (talk) 01:57, 15 May 2007 (UTC).

The name "Lable" as you spelled it does not have any obvious connections with any Biblical names. There is a Yiddish word "Lebl" which means "little loaf"; it's spelled lamed-`ayin-beit-lamed in Yiddish, but I'm not sure how it would be spelled in Hebrew... AnonMoos 03:18, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

In religious terms, for some centuries now it has been common practice among Ashkenazi Jews to have a Yiddish "Hebrew" name; ie the name by which one would be called to the Torah, prayed for when ill (or dead!) get married etc. Many of these names have Hebrew (and English) equivalents eg Yaakov, Yankel, Jacob in (respectively) Hebrew, Yiddish and English. --Dweller 17:03, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Allegedly and similar adverbs

We often see sentences in the form "X allegedly committed illegal act Y". "Allegedly" is an adverb of manner. Adverbs of manner describe the manner in which an act was done. An adverb can, theoretically, be removed without altering the essential meaning of the act described. (E.g. If the initial sentence is "He walked quickly", it's still true to say "He walked".) However, if we remove "allegedly", this turns it into a statement that X did Y, which dramatically alters the meaning. It's equivalent to replacing "allegedly" with "definitely". Does this suggest that we need to expand our definition of what the function of an adverb is? In particular, if after investigation it's determined that X did nothing illegal at all, the original sentence is describing an act that never occurred. Or, maybe, we should regard the verb not as "committed" but "allegedly committed". But that would require a hyphen, I guess ("X allegedly-committed illegal act Y"; but even then, it's still saying X did something he may not have done at all). Does anyone have the faintest idea of what I'm talking about? JackofOz 04:30, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I've just realised that the sentence "An adverb can, theoretically, be removed without altering the essential meaning of the act described" is another example of this. If I remove "theoretically", the sentence then provides the very example of what I'm arguing is not always the case. JackofOz 04:37, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

W.M. Baskervill, writing in "An English Grammar" (1896), asserts that there are also "adverbs of assertion":

telling the speaker's belief or disbelief in a statement, or how far he believes it to be true; as perhaps, maybe, surely, possibly, probably, not, etc.

I tend to chalk these kinds of anomalies up to fitting the round peg of English grammar into the square hole of Latin wannabe-ism. link --TotoBaggins 04:58, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Not at all: Latin too has adverbs like fortasse "possibly". --Ptcamn 05:30, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, interesting. In the cases I'm talking about, the newspaper/TV reporter is not taking any kind of stance about the guilt or innocence of X, but merely stating the fact that someone has alleged that X did Y. I suspect this crept into the language at some point, as a shorthand way of saying just that, eg. "The police have alleged that X did Y". Until the court or whoever says otherwise, it is not the case that X did Y, allegedly or any other way. JackofOz 05:23, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Modern linguists tend to define parts of speech on grammatical rather than semantic grounds: "allegedly" and "quickly" are adverbs simply because it's possible to say "X allegedly committed illegal act Y" and "X quickly committed illegal act Y", while things like *X knife committed illegal act Y" or *X bad committed illegal act Y" are ungrammatical.

Where'd you get that definition of adverb, anyway? I don't think it's standard. --Ptcamn 05:29, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Is allegedly, unlike quickly, a disjunct? ---Sluzzelin talk 12:59, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

In traditional (peg-deforming) grammar, one sometimes speaks of words that modify the entire sentence. For example, and for what it's worth, Smyth's Greek Grammar (traditional old-fashioned) section 1094 distinguishes "ordinary adverbs" from "sentence adverbs (or particles)...adverbs that affect the sentence as a whole," under which he includes words translatable as "surely," "perhaps," and "not." Wareh 15:07, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

When X-ly is an adverb of manner, it may be replaced by in an X manner or in an X way. For example, Reality cruelly ended my reverie means: Reality ended my reverie in a cruel manner. So the manner in which reality put an end to my happy reverie was cruel. And Customs official stealthily took bribes from travellers caught smuggling is the same as Customs official took bribes in a stealthy way from travellers caught smuggling. The way in which the villain of the story took the money was stealthy. But you cannot rephrase Customs official allegedly took bribes from travellers caught smuggling as Customs official took bribes in an alleged way from travellers caught smuggling. That means something different. Therefore allegedly should not be considered an adverb of manner here. It does fit the description of "sentence adverb" above as well as that given under disjunct – a term I had not heard before, but also used here. I hope that by stating all this I am not infringing upon a patent.  --Lambiam 15:35, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

You're ok, as long as you don't choose to produce a Tarzan-type yell while doing so. :) --TotoBaggins 17:08, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Using erzählen with von

I'm learning this word myself. When I see some sentences using this word with von, I don't understand and try to consult dictionaries. Yet, I still got no answers.

I type some two sample sentences here. Would someone explain how to use the strcture, please?

Helga erzählt der Mutter von ihrer Lehrerin.

Question: Von wem erzählen Sie Ihren Eltern? (Herr Braun)

My book says this is SUBJECT + VERB (+ DATIV) + PRÄPOSITIONALOBJEKT:von.

--Fitzwilliam 05:02, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Von in this case means "about" and is used the same way. Helga erzählt der Mutter von ihrer Lehrerin = "Helga tells Mother about her teacher". Von wem erzählen Sie Ihren Eltern? = "Who are you telling your parents about?" —Angr 05:07, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I had thought the verb would change its meaning when used with von.--Fitzwilliam 07:48, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

offer advice for/on/about...

which preposition should i use? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 166.121.36.10 (talk) 06:24, 15 May 2007 (UTC).

Depends what you're offering advice on/for/about. 213.48.15.234 06:38, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

"This book contains advice on framistan maintenance for novices." on and about are often synonymous. —Tamfang 07:35, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

On is generally to be preferred (at least in British English) but there are contexts in which about is better (e.g. "I'd like your advice about something"). The OED citations have twice as many of the former. For most purposes, why use the vague "about" when you can use the more definite "on"? "For" addresses the person advised rather than the topic of the advice.--Shantavira 08:24, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

POSSESIVES 'S AND S'

WHICH IS THE CORRECT USE OF 'S/S'

Dr. Evans's nurse has the report. Dr. Evans' nurse has the report.

Dr. Gimenez's nurse has the report. Dr. Gimenez' nurse has the report. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.172.10.35 (talk) 14:41, 15 May 2007 (UTC).

On Misplaced Pages, "Dr. Evans's" is preferred: see Misplaced Pages:Manual_of_style#Usage. Presumably the same for Gimenez. However, for plural nouns, just ' is used (I think): e.g. "Dr. Evans's nurse will have the report in two days' time". There are of course exceptions. The Guardian style guide agrees. So does the US government style guide. The York University style guide does not. Who are you writing for? If they have a style, follow it, otherwise it looks like you have a number of options. Algebraist 15:48, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

It's another house style question. As someone reasonably well-versed in current mainstream UK practice, I'd say apostrophe-S is the straightforward rule: Dr Evans's office, Dr Gimenez's stethoscope, Calais's Rodin sculptures, Dickens's house, Tom Hanks's last film.

You might just be able to contrive examples where a plural-sounding noun can be treated as singular, but where it really would sound wrong with an apostrophe-S: for instance, "The Lindisfarne Gospels is in the British Library" can sound correct depending on house style, but "The Gospels's main claim to fame..." sounds horrible. Well, it did at first, but now I've said it so many times it sounds OK.

The answer depends on who you're working for, especially if they're writing the cheques. - RA —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.66.229.8 (talk) 15:54, 15 May 2007 (UTC).

Spanish wiki

The article about the phrase "veni, vidi, vici" on the Spanish wikipedia has recently been moved to , apparently under the assumption that "vinci" is the correct perfect tense of "vincere". This seems to be true in Spanish, but it's definitely not in Latin, and it amazes me that someone could screw up such a well-known phrase like that. I don't have an account there and I don't know enough Spanish to fix it myself, so can someone help? (I asked this on Talk:Veni, vidi, vici too, but nothing happened.) Adam Bishop 14:54, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I moved it back. I hope it sticks; I don't know enough Spanish to engage in an edit war. —Angr 18:40, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Type O Negative

In the Type O Negative song She Burned Me Down. Off the Album Dead Again. The singer sings in Icelandic or Russian or some thing, what language is he speaking and what is he saying? Thanks81.144.161.223 15:00, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Mssrs.

Is it acceptable to use the 'Mssrs.' for a group of mixed gender? If not, is there an alternative pluralised title? Ninebucks 15:32, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I think that the answers are no, and no. If you are using the title in an address, you could omit the title from the address entirely (e.g. "Smith, Jones, and Rodriguez; 15 Wiki Way; London, Ontario N9A 3H5" or whatever). If you are using the title in a salutation, you might think about replacing the titles and names with a more general greeting, such as "Dear Neighbors", "Dear Occupants", "Dear Colleagues" or whatever. Alternatively, you could list each with his or her title ("Dear Mr. Smith, Ms. Jones, and Mr. Rodriguez"). It seems to be rather awkward to use "Dear Messrs. Smith and Rodriguez and Ms. Jones". In fact, "Mssrs." is very seldom used these days in any context. Marco polo 18:27, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

"Gentlepersons:" (my own invention, thank you :-) Unimaginative Username 21:09, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

What does the acronym 'Bebo' stand for

What does the letters of the acronym 'Bebo' stand for as in the on-line community Bebo?

Many thanks if you are able to answer,

Craig.--82.71.51.179 17:18, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I assume it's a shortening of peekaboo.--Shantavira 17:44, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Or Peepo? Skittle 19:47, 15 May 2007 (UTC)We have no article on Janet and Allan Ahlberg, or any of their books? How can this be?EDIT:Done. Please improve.

Urine

Can anyone tell me how the word "Pee" came to be synonomous with Urine?

Arab for "prison"

I thought the Arab word for "prison" sounded vaguely like "bastion", but that's of French origin, and that surely can't be the case? 81.93.102.185 21:28, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Plural

Hey you cunning linguists, can you tell me the plural of the english word 'cervix'. I dont mind people sticking their necks out and having a good guess. Any help appreciated. Thanks.

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