Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 21:21, 3 July 2007

Evidence

Is the Arbcom interested in proof that accounts editing from IP identified by WP:RFCU are also editing under a WP:COI? Anynobody 01:08, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

To my understanding, accounts and IP addresses that originate from a specific organization and edit articles about that organization have a presumptive WP:COI (of course I don't speak for the Committee when I say that). Perhaps the most famous example is Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/United States Congress. The way I've handled investigations, mere existence of COI doesn't necesssarily mean violation of the COI guideline. If an organization appoints a specific spokesperson who openly declares the affiliation and posts reliably sourced suggested edits to article talk pages, that's fine with me. Plenty of firms make mistakes in this area when they're new to Misplaced Pages and to some extent that's understandable. Some inappropriate advice has been circulating in the business press that lumps Misplaced Pages together with MySpace and other Web 2.0 venues.

I'm curious whether this case will establish some sharper definition of how WP:AGF and WP:COI dovetail. Yet at this point, since I'm aware of no actual evidence that would establish a reason to challenge the checkuser, it could be helpful if some of the Scientologist editors solicited an official statement from the CoS IT team. Also, if CoS doesn't already have some internal policy on Misplaced Pages editing it would probably be to their benefit to establish one, per User:Jmabel/PR and this article. Durova 04:16, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

The COI guideline exists to protect Misplaced Pages's reputation as a neutral source of information. As Wikipedian's we have a strong interest in protecting our brand, and we have the right to set whatever policies further our goals. The COI guideline is not only concerned about actual COI, but also apparent COI. Using an organization's proxy server allows the organization to monitor every edit made. Whether we are talking about a religious organization, or in some other instance a business, Misplaced Pages must be concerned that these edits could be influenced by the subject of the article. When edits can be monitored, pressure can be applied to members of the organization to make those edits more favorable. This represents an insidious violation of WP:NPOV that cannot be tolerated. Jehochman 04:42, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your points, Durova. I think it would be most unwiki to exclude editors based solely on a COI, some people can balance their feelings and the rules. However if a COI appears to have gotten the better of an editor, we should not hesitate to act once sufficient warning/explanations are given.

I was wondering how we are treating the other accounts identified by checkuser like Misou or CSI LA. Should we include evidence about them too? Anynobody 04:50, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I also agree with Jehochman's statement, but we don't know if the IP is indeed a CoS tool, merely an excuse made up by a puppet master, or something else. Personally I'm keeping all options open, but since this arbcom is about only one of the possible socks are we assuming the others are different people? Anynobody 06:56, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Since part of the question at issue here is the validity of the COFS checkuser result, it seems to me that evidence about any of those other accounts is potentially valid. Bear in mind that none of them have edited in a while, so if the case proceeds purely on that basis it might close quickly. I hope to clear my name of some of the accusations that have been made against me recently and I have a hunch that article probation would be a good idea for Scientology-related topics. If any of the named editors on either side of this case have violated policy in relation to this dispute then this would be the place to air the evidence. Of course, as always, that's just my finger to the wind and I have no more access to the Committee's deliberations than any other editor.

What I always advise named parties to do is examine their own actions, assume responsibility for any mistakes, and take corrective steps. In most arbiration cases the participants spend considerable energy identifying each others' faults but little on their own. Arbitration happens because people weren't able to solve their own problems. So I think the best way to handle arbitration is to demonstrate that I can exercise sufficient self-control and don't need any external remedies. Occasionally everyone comes to that realization and the case ends with a handshake, such as here. That's really the best solution when it can be achieved. Durova 07:40, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

• Just another data point: there is not one IP; there are several IPs that have been used by the same subset of editors. (Three user ids in particular used each of them, and then each has been used by a few different editors.) --jpgordon 16:58, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

• But they all resolve to the CoS, right? Without knowing the ins and outs of their network and gateway configuration, what assumptions do you think should be made? As regards the one IP that was blocked briefly I was informed by e-mail (in response to a question I raised on-wiki) that it is used by many Scientologists worldwide including non-staff volunteers in offices of groups like CCHR. That is just one IP. Given that and the conditions that I mention on the evidence page, I think the only assumption that can be made when we note someone editing from a CoS IP is that they likely are a Scientologist in good standing with their church. Like me or any number of actual and potential editors here. That is about it. Certainly no slam-dunk COI. Unless someone thinks that I have a COI in editing here? Anyone think that? --Justanother 18:07, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
  • No, they do not all resolve to CoS. One does. --jpgordon 18:19, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

• Well, don't you think that since pretty much the entirety of this arbitration is about those IP's, that you should reveal at least what firm and location they resolve to? If not the IPs themselves. How can we evaluate what, if any, COI and/or puppetry issue(s) exist without that information because based simply on the CoS gateway, I do not think we can. Too many variables. --Justanother 18:26, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I should; it's something we get to figure out as we work on this case. At the moment, I'm still holding it close to my chest in the name of checkuser confidentiality, and researching; it's possible that the addresses have already been revealed somewhere on Misplaced Pages, but I'm not sure. --jpgordon 18:34, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

• (EC) "at least what firm and location they resolve to and which editors used which", I should say. And I know that you'all will decide but we are the ones asked to present evidence. So if you are the jury, then we are the attorneys, and we need sufficient information in order to present adequate evidence. --Justanother 18:37, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Justanother, for your acting as an "attorney" for the cofs I suggest you reread the reason why this arbitration is being conducted. All the information is there.--Fahrenheit451 19:08, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

F451, why are you trying to reflect or divert attention upon who I am or what I am doing? I am doing what I assume an interested party is supposed to do - presenting evidence and opinion that I belief should be considered. Do you have a problem with that? Why? F451, if it is your intention to be disruptive, I suggest that you refrain. --Justanother 21:02, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I request that the ArbCom read my statements of evidence here: Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/COFS/Evidence. Please bear in mind that the cofs is not a hospitality corporation.--Fahrenheit451 19:51, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Let's assume that CofS includes a hospitality operation. If we saw a stream of POV-type edits to Hilton Hotels coming from an IP address that resolved to Hilton, that would definitely raise suspicions of COI. I fully agree with Justanother that the network location alone does not prove a COI violation. However, the network location plus the nature of the edits, plus other factors indicative of COI tend to create a very strong case. The resolution is for editors using the CoS network to realize that they need to be very careful to observe Misplaced Pages's content policies, including WP:NPOV, and that they need to avoid edit warring, lest their behavior reflect poorly on the CoS. Perhaps the CoS should establish policies and conduct user training to educate their people about best practices for contributing to Misplaced Pages. Jehochman 20:59, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, I think that we are getting a bit of a handle on it. The difference between the Hilton example and here is that the Hilton population is heterogeneous and any consistent POV would be an anomaly worth investigating. I can just about guarantee that every single Scientologist is dismayed at what is presented here. The fact is that, to an incredible degree, the Scientology series articles were written by highly POV anti-Scientologists that have little understanding of what Scientology is or how it is practiced; they only have knowledge of biased misrepresentations of Scientology. There are exceptions to that but that is the norm. What that means is that when someone that knows Scientology and holds it in good regard sees these articles it can be a bit overwhelming. The overwhelming temptation is to remove lies and misrepresentations. Imagine how you would feel, Jehochman, if, for example, the entire article on SEO was written by critics of SEO and it presents SEO as a scam perpetrated by a bunch of scammers and that everyone that was involved in SEO was a criminal. In other words it took valid criticism, blew it out of proportion, and made that the entirety of the subject. You might be tempted to get right in there and moderate the misrepresentation. But what if every time you tried you found embedded POV editors instantly reverted you. You might get frustrated and you might "get in trouble". So when you say "the nature of the edits" I say that we cannot simply say that in an off-the-cuff fashion (not accusing you of that) but that we need to look at the individual edits and make a judgement as to whether they, on a one-by-basis and taken collectively, are indicative of blatent COI or are they good-faith edits in accordance with policy or are they something in-between. --Justanother 21:21, 3 July 2007 (UTC)