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This article was nominated for deletion on 29 June 2007. The result of the discussion was keep.

missing in this article

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2002/3/Passover%20suicide%20bombing%20at%20Park%20Hotel%20in%20Netanya

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/855852.html

various structures have been destroyed as a result of Palestinian bombings in israel - these are not yet covered in the article. Zeq 17:58, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

I can't see the relevence of the first link. ابو علي (Abu Ali) 19:16, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Part of a structure was demolished. but in any case there are many others examples of homes that are attcked by militants and are demolished or partly demolished. BTW. the article fail to mention that israel have stopped the pratice of demolishing homes against families of suicide bomebers. Zeq 07:58, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

The first paragraph of the "Criticism and responses" section does say that the practice was discontinued in 2005. ابو علي (Abu Ali) 13:03, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Zeq, do you not see the difference between the destruction of a house as a punitive measure and the destruction of a house by suicide bomb? Tarc 14:47, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

This article is not just about demolitions as a punitive measure. Isarig 00:28, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Deletions by Isarig

Isarig removed a sourced addition with the false claim that it had been discussed on the talk page. Well, it haven't but it's never to late to start so I bring it here. It is relevant to this article as it deals with house demolitions as a way to deal with the ethnic challenge. // Liftarn

You may want this article to describe "house demolitions as a way to deal with the ethnic challenge" - but it clearly does not. As it says in the lead: "House demolition ... is a controversial tactic used by the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) for counter-insurgency and other security purposes". The Margalit quote is not about any of this, and this has been discussed, with your participation, in the TAlk page of this article's predecessor - House demolition. Here is a link to the relevant discussion - with your input. Your accusation that my claim that this has been discussed is false and dishonest - don't do it again. Please stop adding this irrelevant, POV-pushing quote to the article. Isarig 15:32, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Dealing with what you describe as "ethnic challenge" (i.e. the fact that Arabs exist) does come under "other security purposed". ابو علي (Abu Ali) 22:23, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

It is Liftarn who described it as an '"ethnic challenge" (perhap he'll be next on your shitlist as an "Evil Zionist"(TM)). But regardles, no, it's not. Isarig 23:41, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Correct, as it say "a Palestinian home without a permit is a strategic threat" thus demolishing a house because those living there has the "wrong" ethnicity is covered by "security purposes". // Liftarn

First of all , this is ICAHD's POV and phrasing, and a NPOV article shoudl not accept a partisan's claim as fact. More importantly, a "strategic threat" is not the same as "security purposes". The US faces a "strategic threat" of the Euro replacing the Dollar as the main currency for international commerce but steps that the Federal Reserve may take to remedy this would not be "security measures", would not be considered an act of the US armed forces, etc... Isarig 14:40, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

That is an interesting interpretation, but I've never heard it before, so unless there is a wider discussion framing it in these terms, Margalit is talking about something else which doesn't belong. Tewfik 07:50, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

How can you possibly interpret it that way? The quote is from a report on house demolitions so if it somehow "doesn't belong" then the framing is wrong rather than the quote. Btw, the article is about "the use of house demolition in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict" so it clearly belongs as it's about house demolitions as a part of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. // Liftarn

No, the article is about a "controversial tactic used by the Israeli Defence Forces" . It is not at all about civil demolitions of houses constructed w/o permit, no matter how desperately you or ICAHD want to conflate the two. Isarig 14:36, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

The article is about house demolition in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict even if you want to narrow the scope to exclude the majority of the house demolitions. // Liftarn

No, it's not. You might want it to be, and it migh be in the future, but right now, it is not, and won't be, until consensus for such an expansion is reached here. For the thrid time, the article's lede expalins what it is about: "House demolition in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a controversial tactic used by the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) for counter-insurgency and other security purposes in the Israeli-occupied territories. Although it is justified by the IDF as a deterrent against terrorism, its effectiveness and legality has repeatedly been questioned by human rights groups." Isarig 14:46, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is. Notice what it says in large letters above, "House demolition in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict". // Liftarn

The scope of this article is military and security actions. Jayjg 15:06, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

(e/c) The editorial decision to include so much material about the permit demolitions in an article that purports to be about military/counter-insurgency/security purposes is POV. As I say below, I think the easy solution is merely to expressly expand the scope of the article. nadav (talk) 14:49, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

See below. And demolitions based on security purposes (like that the building was built y someone with the "wrong" ethnicity) is valid. // Liftarn

Zoning and planning issues, or allegations of discrimination, belong in other articles. Jayjg 15:06, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

In 'which' other articles? ابو علي (Abu Ali) 17:59, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

The Arab citizens of Israel is one such article, delaing with allegations of discrimination. Isarig 18:13, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Outdent:

Isarig removed a large section of the article with the comment "this article is not about demolition of houses built w/o permit by civil authorities". But Isarig does not WP:OWN this article so his opinion on what should be excluded from this article is not necessarily the last word on the matter. And his opinion here is unreasonable, as Israel routinely denies building permits to Arabs as a result the majority of buildings built in the Arab sector are built without permits. The subsequent wholesale demolition of Arab buildings by the Israeli authorities on the grounds that they have no permits is part of Israel's conflict with the Arabs living under its rule and merits inclusion in the article. ابو علي (Abu Ali) 22:42, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I obviously don't own the article - WP works by consensus. Get consensus for the inclusion of this material, and it stays. Fail to get consensus, and it's out. So far in addition to me, editors Jayjg, Humus sapiens and Tewfik have expressed similar objections, and nadav has called the repeated attempts to include this material "POV", so it appears that you not only don't have consensus for including this material, but a majority of editors oppose it. Isarig 22:49, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes I know that there are a group of Zionist editors who can always be relied on to attempt to censor anything which they feel does not paint Israel in a favourable light. This is not new. And it is not convincing. ابو علي (Abu Ali) 22:56, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Your repeated allegations that your edits are being reverted by group of Zionist editors censoring information, alongside blatant POV pushing edits such as this reflect badly on you. Please stop it and start contributing porductively to the project. Isarig 23:02, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Rename and refocus article

I suggest we rename this article "House demolition in Israel and the Palestinian territories" to get away from the POV problem. That way we can be free to discuss any demolitions we want without implicitly making the POV claim that Israel demolishes Arab homes for being threats to its national character. We would be able to include explicit discussion of this POV as well as the contrary opinions. nadav (talk) 00:19, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I think such a name would make it unfocused. It is intended to be about house demolition in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, not generally about any house demolition in a specific geographic area, i.e. it's about context, not geography. // Liftarn

Demolishing a house built without a permit is not part of the "conflict". Perhaps we should include the Israeli demolition of houses in various settlements as well? A few thousand were demolished as part of Israel's unilateral disengagement plan, and wildcat settlements are regularly destroyed as well. Jayjg 15:08, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Good point. Perhaps scorched earth destruction of houses also should be included. First denying building permits and then demolishing the house as part of the conflict may be included. // Liftarn

Also, Israel regularly destroys Israeli homes in every Israeli city and town, under various laughable excuses, such as "being demolished to make way for new residences" etc. We need to get the records of the various municipal offices in charge of this, to start documenting these pathetic covers for conflict demolitions. Jayjg 16:23, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

If Israeli homes would have been demolished by the Palestinian authorities on flimsy excuses then it would have made a good addition to the article. Just find sources before you add it. Good luck. // Liftarn

Why should we limit ourselves? why should we look only at hypothetical demolitions by Palestinian authorities, when there are plentiful demolitions of Israeli homes by Israeli authorities? Isarig 17:21, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

It'd be an excellent idea to rename this article, since a lot that has happened (eg demolitions in Jerusalem and the Negev) have virtually nothing to do with "conflict".

However, there is one small problem. Israel has carried out House demolitions outside it's own territory, and outside territory it occupied - is it possible to somehow include these examples too?. Here are a couple of edits I had intended to make:

===1966 Samu===

Samu was a small village (population 4,000) in Jordan (now the West Bank) which was attacked by 4,000 Israeli soldiers in jeeps, personnel carriers and five Patton tanks. They demolished 46 houses and the mosque, apparently in retaliation for the placing within Israel of a mine which had killed 3 Israeli soldiers. The Israelis waited for Jordanian troops to arrive and killed 16, including the pilot of an elderly jet. Three civilians were killed and 96 wounded. The Israeli battalion commander was killed, and ten Israeli soldiers wounded.

Special Assistant Komer wrote to President Johnson after this incident that he had told (Israeli) Ambassador Harman "fully understood Israel's problems, but that use of force was dubious at best and use of such disproportionate force--against Jordan to boot--was folly indeed. It undermined the whole US effort to maintain Jordanian stability, which was so much in Israel's own interest that Israel's action was almost incomprehensible."

For the 40th anniversary of the Six Days War, a UN observer came forward to describe what he'd experienced. Dutchman Colonel (ret.) Jan Mühren told the Dutch current affairs program Nova that Israel provoked most border incidents as part of a strategy to annex more land. He tells how Samu (indeed, the entire West Bank) had nothing to do with attacks on Israel "only western officers operated here and we did patrols". Moshe Dayan confirmed that Israel had provoked 80% of incidents preceding the 1967 Israeli attack, and the Dutch television program includes a clip of Israeli journalist Rami Tal describing the interview (the contents of which were not made public until after Dayan's death).

===1956 Qibya===

Qibya was a village in Jordan (now the West Bank). Arial Sharon, then commander of Unit 101, equipped his men with 600kgs of explosives and they blew up 45 houses with the death of 69 civilians, mostly women and children crushed in the rubble This incident was in retaliation for the killing of 3 Israelis within Israel, but no evidence the intruders had used the village was ever presented.

1. Incident at Samu Time Magazine, 25th Nov 1966. Accessed 23rd June 2007
2. Six-Day War deliberately provoked by Israel: former Dutch UN observer - text and video link to Dutch current affairs program Nova on 4th June 1967. Accessed 20 Jun 2007
3. From butcher to 'Lion' to Prime Minister of Israel. Accessed 22nd June 2007

PalestineRemembered 18:28, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Both incidents (Qibya, Samu) have their own WP articles (written in a much more NPOV and better refernced than your suggestion above, BTW). If the article's scope is expanded, we may include a pointer to these articles, or a "See Also" list. Isarig 22:44, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

They're famous mass house demolitions by the Israeli military and a quick recount of the major details is necessary in this article. Qibya, at any rate, was and is universally recognised as an atrocity. I'm not aware we give the perpetrator any "right to reply" in these cases - or can you show us examples in any other region where we do so? PalestineRemembered 13:11, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Oppose the renaming of the article. The vast majority of sources addressing the topic a) treat it as part of the I/P conflict, b) describe the demolitions citing security and the demolitions citing lack of permit as part of the same phenomenon, and c) do not address odd instances of demolition of homes of Israeli Jews or Bedouin. The reliable sources have defined the parameters and the purview of the subject. Gerrymandering by Wikipedians violates WP:NPOV and WP:NOR.--G-Dett 16:45, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

This article covers house demolitions for military purposes; I don't see the sources used here discussing it in other contexts. How did you decide that a "majority" of sources did so? Jayjg 17:38, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

By actually reading them instead of indulging in I-feel-lucky bluffs and guesses about their contents. The only sources of ours who do not fit my description are those that are either a) reports focusing on a specific instance (such as the Human Rights Watch report "IDF House Demolition Injures Refugees" about a demolition in Gaza), b) general sources addressing the legal context of the Israeli occupation rather than demolitions per se, or c) partisan/propaganda tracts such as Right to Exist: A Moral Defense of Israel's Wars, which don't belong here anyway because they're written by non-experts and touch only glancingly and rhetorically on the topic at hand. I'm hoping you'll self-revert; it will be a more pleasant means to an inevitable end.--G-Dett 18:03, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Wait, you've just listed a whole bunch of sources that don't actually refer to "demographic demolitions". Which ones specifically deal that that topic, then? Jayjg 18:18, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Wait, you wrote: "This article covers house demolitions for military purposes; I don't see the sources used here discussing it in other contexts." Have you changed your mind about that?--G-Dett 04:19, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

You call my idea gerrymandering, POV, and OR?! The intent of my suggestion was to make extended coverage of civil Palestinian home demolitions uncontroversially relevant to the article. And I believe you are misinformed about the Negev Bedouin land issue. nadav (talk) 19:58, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree that G-Dett may be misinformed about the Negev house demolitions. 100s have been carried out recently eg , and I think the Israeli minister responsible said he wants to demolish 42,000, leaving the inhabitants with nothing. PalestineRemembered 21:58, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

User:PalestineRemembered, wikipedia is not a soapbox, please refrain from spreading libeleous claims. Jaakobou 22:00, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Some demolitions were this week: , . nadav (talk) 23:53, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I meant that most RS's have not addressed the demolition of Bedouin homes as part of the same phenomenon as that of Palestinian homes. I can see now that at least in the case of Amnesty International, I was wrong, and I may well be misinformed on that subject more generally. It may be a moot point, but the OR and NPOV issues I had in mind were WP:SYNTH and WP:UNDUE, not pov-pushing.--G-Dett 04:37, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

It could be undue weight etc. if we kept the article's title/purpose as is; that's why I proposed explicitly broadening the scope of the article. nadav (talk) 05:11, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

More info

There is more info on house demolitions here:

• User:PalestineRemembered/House Demolition in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict
• User:Timeshifter/Al-Aqsa Intifada Archive. Old page

I am not vouching for the quality of the info. I did not do the compilation of the info on either page. The second page does not focus on house demolitions. I recently finished converting the embedded links there to reference links. --Timeshifter 16:22, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

June 2007 AfD

I've closed the June AfD as keep. This isn't a comment on the quality of the article. The redirect form is perfectly compatible with the keep. --Tony Sidaway 23:48, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

The recent AfD on this article has now concluded with a substantial majority in favour of keeping this article (for the record, the outcome was 62.5% in favour of keeping it, 30% redirecting, 7.5% deleting). Consequently I've unprotected it, but I've restored only a stub. I'll explain why.

I still don't particularly want to get involved in editing this article - it's not my area of expertise or interest. However, in the interests of providing a constructive way forward, I'd like to suggest an outline. When writing an article from scratch (as in the case of House demolition), I usually find it helpful to sit down and work out a rough structure for it in advance. That way I don't end up with a baggy, undifferentiated mass of content and a rambling narrative. The article should be organised into clearly focused sections which aren't excessively long.

The version of this article that existed immediately before it was blanked suffered from a lack of focus and direction, quite apart from any issues with the specific content that it incorporated. I don't know much about the issue but from the content that's been posted already (and extrapolating from the existing House demolition article) I would suggest something like the following:

• Lead

- Summarise issue and controversy

• Israeli policy

- Establishment of house demolition tactic (British Mandate), previous policy, current policy, statements by ministers & military

• Usage

- Numbers, locations (West Bank? Gaza? both?), time periods (e.g. just during the intifadas or before then as well?)

• Reasons

- Targeted killings, punishment, administrative issues (e.g. alleged illegal construction), counter-insurgency - give examples of each

• Legal status

- Legality under Israeli and international law, legal opinions, position of Israeli courts

• Political issues

- Opposition and support (who opposes? who supports?), campaign groups (e.g. Israeli committee against house demolition), international opinion (what has been said by UN & foreign governments?), activism (e.g. Corrie case, other demonstrations)

This should of course be written neutrally from the outset, relying on reliable and verifiable sources. Please try to remember that you're not here to condemn or defend either Israel or the Palestinians, but to summarise accurately and fairly what other people say about the issue.

Good luck! -- ChrisO 23:51, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Excellent suggestion. Obviously good coverage of the issue would be preferable to folding all coverage into the main House demolition article. --Tony Sidaway 00:20, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Tony. It's obviously impractical to fold all coverage into the main House demolition article for the simple reasons that (a) it's an overview article in the first place; detailed coverage of a particular conflict would overwhelm it and defeat its purpose, and (b) a complex topic like this needs to be dealt with systematically, not shoehorned into the corner of another article. The best way forward here would be for editors to agree in advance on an outline and topics to be tackled, and then systematically work through each heading and fill out the content. -- ChrisO 00:30, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I think the outline is a good suggestion, with one exception: I don't think it should include civil demolition of houses built without permit, as that is a civil matter.we may include a brief mention that some partisans who are opposed to the military policy view such civil demolitions as being part of some grander conspiracy. Isarig 02:32, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Revert war

I guess we'll need to go down the usual route – RfC, revert wars, locked page, mediation, mutual recrimination, etc. – to establish the inevitable: that this article will include so-called "administrative demolitions." For the simple reason that the overwhelming preponderance of reliable sources treat these as part of the subject. You'll succeed in exasperating editors, draining their energy, resources, and faith in the project, and so on – but in the end the article will follow its source material, rather than manipulate or gerrymander it.--G-Dett 04:14, 5 July 2007 (UTC) --G-Dett 04:14, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

stating, at this stage, that the result of the RfC is "inevitable" is puzzling, to say the least, and the attitude reflected by your edit above does not seem to be in the spirit of this project. You are, yet again, strongly advised to reevaluate your approach to editing this encyclopedia, which is just that, an encyclopedia, not a soapbox for Israel-bashing. Isarig 04:18, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I've not examined much of the evidence yet, but it seems overwhelmingly likely that "administrative demolitions" belong in this category according to the sources. Why don't we produce and write-up the evidence first and let the community decide whether it belongs? Do we need to have an argument before we've seen what people produce? PalestineRemembered 06:02, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Yet another puzzling statement - an editor that admits he has not looked at the evidence, yet boldly states that it is "overwhelmingly likely" that something belongs. Why don;t you just go out and say you wnatthis included, whether or not it belongs? The article's lead saysy "House demolition in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a controversial tactic used by the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) for counter-insurgency and other security purposes in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. " - this clearly excludes civil demolitions of houses w/o permits. Isarig 13:45, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

The lead used to read, "House demolition in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a controversial tactic used by the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) for counter-insurgency, other security purposes, and civil planning in the West Bank and Gaza Strip," which had the advantage of presenting the topic as the reliable sources present it, rather than as ideologues on Misplaced Pages prefer to carve it up. Jayjg performed his gerrymander here, with a characteristically helpful edit summary, "Nope." You are now tautologically citing Jay's gerrymander as authority for itself. Go figure.--G-Dett 13:57, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, when this article was created, by Abu Ali, the lead read "House demolition (also known as house razing) is a tactic for combating an insurgency. ". It contained this formulation (or others similar to it, all of which excluded civil demolitions) up until the AfD, redirect and subsequent stubbing by ChrisO, who intorduced the "civil planning" aspect. Perhaps you should use your usual uncivil style and chastise ChirsO here, or on his talk page, for gerrymandering or carving up the article to suit an ideological position. Isarig 15:35, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

You're not following. The version of the lead written by ChrisO and gerrymandered by Jayjg is authoritative not because it "came first," but because it followed the sources rather than undermining/second-guessing them.--G-Dett 16:00, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Nice try, but no cigar. The version by ChrisO had no sources whatsoever, it was a minimalist stub. So, are you going to claim he was gerrymandering, by clearly changing the scope of the article, which had remained constant since its inception? Isarig 16:16, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

The statement "The IDF justifies it as a deterrent against terrorism.", clearly does not belong.

In the interests of consensus and feeling our way forwards, I've left in place the statement "The IDF justifies it as a deterrent against terrorism.", but it clearly does not belong. It's not acceptable to International Law, not acceptable to world opinion, and the most notable element (demolition of the houses for the purpose of punishing the families of suicide bombers) has been stopped by the controller of the IDF (Defense Ministry) with the comment "An army committee earlier reported that the policy had little deterrent effect and inflamed Palestinian hatred." As of this moment, the IDF clearly does NOT think it a deterrent, they've found that that is not the case, they've said so, and the recommendation has been acted on. PalestineRemembered 06:18, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

CHange it to past tense? "The IDF justified it..." // Liftarn

Or "Until 2005, the IDF acted in the belief that demolishing the family house of a suicide bomber acted as a deterrent to terrorism and justified it thereby. This particular practise was abandoned in Feb 2005 by order of Israel's defence ministry after an army committee reported that the policy had little deterrent effect and inflamed Palestinian hatred." PalestineRemembered 18:37, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

We must be clear, though, that this was never the only reason for house demolitions, and demolitions for other reasons continue. Sanguinalis 11:04, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Correct, I'm not sure how anyone got a different impression. PalestineRemembered 18:37, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Compromise suggestion

The article, as it is currently described in the lead, and as it was initially conceived by its creator, is about house demolition as a military tactic. Some editors want to expand the scope to include ANY kind of house demolition in the I-P conflict, including civil demolition of houses built without permit, demolition for public purposes under eminent domain etc...I think this is inappropirate, but as a compromise, I'm willing to entertain the following:

• The article's lead will make clear that it is about demolitions of 3 kinds (military action, including punishment for terrorism; civil demololition of houses build without permit; demolition for public purposes of houses taken under eminent domain)
• The 3 will be treated seperately, as they are different things, and not conflated together as if they are part and parcel of some grand scheme.
• In the seperate section about civil demolitions of houses w/o permit:

• It will be made clear that such demolitions are carried out against Arab as well as Jewish illegal construction.
• There will be mention of the POV allegation by partisan groups (such as ICAHD) that the civil demolitions are part of a grand startegy against the Arabs, and that it is applied in a discriminatory fashion to Arab vs. Jewish construction; This will be balanced by claimes (quoting Palestinian leaders) that Palestinian illegal construction is part of a land-grab strategy that has nothing to do with availability of building permits.
• There will be mention of the allegations by Partisan groups (such as Btselem) that building permits are impossible to get, and this will be juxaposed against counter-claims using offical statistics that show actual availability of permits to Palestinains, in percentages similar to (and sometimes exceeding) those granted to Jews in Jerusalem. It will also be made clear that since the Oslo accords, 95%+ of the Palestinian population gets its permits from the PNA, not Israel.
• There will be a detailed subsection about the demolition of Israeli "outposts" and other settlements built w/o permit

• In the seperate section about civil demolitions of houses taken by eminent domain:

• It will be made clear that in such case the owners of property are compensated for the taken property
• There will be mention of the allegations that eminent domain is used to take houses from Palestinains for the purpose of building Jewish settlements or roads, and this will be balanced by counter allegations that this is unproven.
• There will be a detailed subsection about the demolition of Israeli settlements built in Gaza and the West Bank which were evacuated and demolished as part of Israel's unilateral withdrawal plans. Isarig 15:59, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Initially this article was to be about house demolitions as a part of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Some highly vocal (and disruptive) editors have constantly been trying to exlcude the majority of the demolitions on spurious grounds. // Liftarn

No it was not. When it was created, it stated in the lead "House demolition (also known as house razing) is a tactic for combating an insurgency". Isarig 16:22, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Whack open this trojan horse piñata of compromise, and out come a whole lotta little CAMERA-candies. The suggestion to treat punitive, administrative, and security demolitions in separate sections is good, since that's what the RS's by and large do. The rest of this consists mostly of preposterous violations of WP:UNDUE ("This will be balanced by claimes (sic) (quoting Palestinian leaders) that Palestinian illegal construction is part of a land-grab strategy that has nothing to do with availability of building permits" is especially precious), and a ridiculous proposal to present the highest-quality reliable sources (scholars and human-rights organizations) as "partisan groups," whose immense research data will be "balanced" by what Isarig deems to be The Truth – a synthesis of CAMERA-clippings, "official statistics" of the Israeli government, and his own original research. Sorry, no. Let's just structure the article according to what the RS's say, and present other minority opinions each according to its prominence, and with a watchful eye on WP:UNDUE, WP:NOR, and other relevant policies. --G-Dett 16:37, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Your idea of 'highest-quality reliable sources' is ICAHD - a self-professed partisan group, whose leaders have been caught, more than once, simply fabricating "facts" out of thin air, to promote a political agenda. If we cannot describe these POV allegations as what they are, and provide counter claims, per WP:NPOV, then we'll have to stick with the article's current and original scope - dealing with house demolitions as a military tactic. Isarig 18:18, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Of course we'll attribute statements, and provide counter-claims. And no, ICAHD will not have the final word. No one gets the final word – not even the scholars and human-rights organizations you routinely denigrate, and whom I refer to as our "highest-quality" RSs. But our presentation will not be guided by nonsense like the following:

There will be mention of the allegations by Partisan groups (such as Btselem) that building permits are impossible to get, and this will be juxaposed against counter-claims using offical statistics that show actual availability of permits to Palestinains, in percentages similar to (and sometimes exceeding) those granted to Jews in Jerusalem. It will also be made clear that since the Oslo accords, 95%+ of the Palestinian population gets its permits from the PNA, not Israel.

You're not going to turn this article into another talking-points state propaganda flier, Isarig, sorry.--G-Dett 18:29, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not really sure what you mean by that. If we are going to provide counter claims (attributed, of course), are we supposed to avoid providing counter claims like this that say Palestinains are building illegaly as part of a land-grab startegy, or keep official government statistics like this out of the article, just because they present facts and points of view you don't like? Isarig 18:45, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Ah yes, Justus Reid Weiner, the sage who staked his reputation on the Edward-Said-summer-home thesis: showing that Said's family was rich and tended to spend only summers at their home in pre-48 Palestine, Weiner concluded that Said had only a tenuous connection to his homeland; Weiner then asked readers to "now substitute the Palestinian people" for Said and voilá!, the hoary old myth of a land without people for a people without land acquires a fresh coat of cheap paint. In the book Isarig is now hocking, Weiner turns his analytical powers to the issue of house demolitions in East Jerusalem, and "based on scores of interviews from across the political spectrum," concludes that Amnesty International, B'Tselem, Human Rights Watch, and every other major human rights organization and previous scholar of the subject are lying through their teeth. I haven't got my hands on Weiner's magnum opus yet – Harvard's only copy is in offsite storage – nor can I find any proper scholarly review of it (only extended blurbs from CAMERA and FrontPageMagazine), but I have thoroughly enjoyed the promotional link Isarig provided. It includes a blurry aerial photo of some buildings and a parking lot, which apparently shows how an "illegal building built on basketball court prevents the expansion of a school" (demolish it! let 'em have it!), a scanned photo of a "brochure in Arabic advising residents how to obtain a building permit, published by the Jerusalem Municipality" (easy as one-two-three), and a few pie charts demonstrating how "new Arab construction has outpaced Jewish construction" (to Palestinian families rebuilding their house for the fifth time this last may actually make some sense). Great stuff, Isarig.

In answer to your questions: yes, you can include Weiner. No, NPOV does not mean equal air time for Weiner's cheerful little book, on the one hand, and the conclusions of every major international human-rights organization and the vast majority of scholars and experts, on the other.--G-Dett 20:49, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I beg to differ. Your ad hominem attacks aside, the academic publication, by a well known researcher, cited by several other academic papers should be given MORE air time, not equal or less air-time, than the shrill hyperbole of a self-professed partisan group like ICAHD. Isarig 21:01, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

(1) we're not talking about ICAHD, we're talking about the consensus of "every major international human-rights organization and the vast majority of scholars and experts"; (2) Weiner is well-known as a "researcher" who levelled a petty charge against Said and extrapolated preposterously from it; (3) Weiner's book is not an "academic" publication, and was not peer-reviewed; (4) Until I find or you produce some concrete evidence that the Weiner thesis has been taken seriously by anyone beyond the CAMERA/FrontPageMagazine fringe, I'm not sure his argument belongs in the article at all – and you can forget about it getting equal air time with consensus knowledge. See WP:UNDUE.--G-Dett 21:16, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I don;t intend to debate your personal opinions of Weiner. He is a well known jurist, an expert on human rights, and published in numerous peer reviewed publications, from The Journal Of Human Rights to The Virginia Journal of International Law. That you know of him only through his expose of Said's fraud is testemant to your ignorance, not his lack of credibility. If there is any 'highest-quality reliable sources', comprised of academic research vs. partisan POV-pushing, it is his work on the topic. WP policy REQUIRES that he be given prominenc over the likes of ICAHD, or the polemics of B'Tselem. Isarig 21:32, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

B'Tselem is a major human-rights organization. They are "polemical" only in the sense that Amnesty, Human Rights Watch, etc. are polemical, that is, insofar as they take human rights seriously and report on violations accordingly. They do not comment ideologically on media coverage, the peace process, American foreign policy vis-á-vis Israel, and so on in the manner of MEMRI, CAMERA, the ADL,et al. If you have objective evidence (e.g. peer-review journal reviews or statistics from scholarly citation indices) demonstrating that Weiner's argument regarding "illegal construction" in East Journalism is taken seriously beyond the CAMERA-MEMRI- FrontPageMagazine-MEQ circuit, I welcome it, and promise to revise my editorial stance accordingly. I've even looked for reviews in The New Republic, which can usually be counted on to give a thoughtless veneer of legitimacy to charlatan scholarship of the Joan Peters/Alan Dershowitz variety. I've not yet checked Commentary, so that might be a place for you to start. So far I can't find anything, but despite my skepticism my mind remains open. In the meantime, I'm still chuckling over the stupid picture of the basketball court.--G-Dett 02:48, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

As I said, I don't intend to debate this. Just to get this silly line of POV argumentation out of the way, Wiener's research is accepted and cited by H. V. Savitch and Yaakov Garb in "Terror, Barriers, and the Changing Topography of Jerusalem" (2006; 26; 152 Journal of Planning Education and Research), as well as by Gerald M. Steinberg, the head of the Political Studies Department at Bar Ilan University (see 'Learning the Lessons of the European Union's Failed Middle East Policies' - paper presented at the conference on “Troubled Waters: Europe And Its Relations With The United States And Israel”, The Helmut Kohl Institute for European Studies, Hebrew University, May 2003). Enough with the ad hominems, it's time for you to move on. Isarig 03:27, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Isarig, that's a start.--G-Dett 12:59, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Bit of a false start, it seems. the Steinberg conference paper is about Europe's Middle East policies, and makes passing reference to demolitions and to Weiner's book in exactly one sentence. That one mention is positive, I'll grant you. But I was (and am) asking for a scholarly review, not a passing mention in an unpublished conference paper on a different topic. But it's better than nothing, which is what I've found in the Savitch and Garb piece. The Weiner book is in the bibliography, but is not once mentioned in the lengthy text. I do not see how you concluded that the authors have "accepted" his thesis; technically speaking, they haven't even cited it. I remain skeptical but open-minded. Perhaps there's a review or something in USA Today? My guess is they'd like his pie-charts.--G-Dett 13:11, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Looks to me like a potentially fraudulent use of citations. I believe the response is "This looks very bad, I hope you have an explanation". PalestineRemembered 20:50, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Nonsense. He hasn't used these citations anywhere in an article, and there's no evidence he's used them "fraudulently" either. Jayjg 20:55, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

The fact that neither G-Dett nor PR can read well enough to find the clear cite of Weiner's book in the Savitch paper does not make anything here fraudulent. Isarig 21:47, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Point taken, I never was a very good girl of the book – the written word just ain't my medium. Pie-charts, satellite-photos of parking lots, scanned brochures and suchlike pretty things are more how I learn, and with them I learn good.

Mr. Weiner is listed in the bibliography, misspelled "Wiener," p.173. I do not find his work "cited" anywhere in the text, much less endorsed and "accepted." I am ready, even hopeful, as always, to be proven wrong, while growing accustomed to having such hopes dashed.--G-Dett 22:36, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Page 154 : "�Palestinians have built quite extensively and mostly informally in neighborhoods such as Beit Hanina, Al Azariya, Shua’fat, Hizma, and other others. Aerial photography confirms this pattern of explosive growth in Arab areas (Kimhi 1997; Wiener 2003)." Perhaps you should spend a little less time mocking pie-charts, and a little more time actually reading. Isarig 00:54, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and again on pages 155 and 171. My humble apologies. But you didn't expect me to actually read the thing, did you? That's a tall order, Isarig. Life is short, Proust is long, and sometimes when you send me these links I rely on a little ctrl-F – and these damn authors of your misspelled the name of this other damn author of yours every damn time. OK now, so these two agree with the other that "Palestinians have built extensively and mostly informally in East Jerusalem," which they suggest is part of an informal territorial struggle. Very well. Setting aside for a moment the question of whether this finding is generally accepted (it seems plausible enough to me), can you explain how it contradicts the findings of human-rights organizations and scholars that permits are near-impossible to obtain for Palestinians, and that this near-impossibility reflects the state's own demographic/territorial goals? Savitch and Garb do quote a city official (p.171) "who claims that equivalent proportions of permits have been issued for Jews and Arabs." Now that claim would contradict the findings in question. But Savitch and Garb conspicuously back away from endorsing it, clarifying that their goal is only to "demonstrate that regardless of formal prescriptions, land use is contested highly by both sides." In other words, they more or less concede the consensus wisdom about the discriminatory issuance of permits, but claim that this is only one tactic within a larger demographic struggle, another tactic being rampant illegal construction by Palestinians. Are we agreed that that is their claim? My hummingbird-like dartings around the rest of their text confirm this is more or less the flavor of its nectar. I'm not going to read the whole damn article, unless you force me to.--G-Dett 02:12, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

You've asked for evidence that Weiner's book is an acceptable academic source- and I've presented you with such. The question is not how S&G will be used in the article, but rather how Wiener's research will, and I've already given you an overview of how. Once the article is unprotected and, if we agree on this compromise as a framework, I'll provide quotes from Wiener that describe the availability of building permits to Arabs (to counter the claim that they are impossible to get), as well as information that Arab non-permit building is done as part of a national strategy, financed by the PNA, and often on land not owned by the builders at all, rather than as a last-resort measure by poor land owners who can't get a permit. Isarig 03:03, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Lordy, give him an inch etc. You've presented me with one source that cites and endorses Weiner's claim that rampant illegal building on the part of Palestinians is part of a territorial struggle. Weiner and S&G thus make this claim; very well. Your "compromise" suggestion added a rather breathtaking extrapolation to that claim. You wrote: "Palestinian illegal construction is part of a land-grab strategy that has nothing to do with availability of building permits." The latter clause (with emphasis added) may reflect Weiner's conclusions or your extrapolations or both, but it is decidedly not endorsed by S&G, who – notwithstanding their strong and manifestly pro-Israel POV – also give a wide berth to the "offical statistics" that you embrace, to wit, those that you claim "show actual availability of permits to Palestinians, in percentages similar to (and sometimes exceeding) those granted to Jews in Jerusalem." The fact that that position is put forth by Mr. Weiner in a rather obscure book, by a Jerusalem city official in private correspondence, by you on a Misplaced Pages talk page, and by CAMERA in one of their innumerable online fliers (this one a screed against the Washington Post), does not make it worthy of equal editorial weight with the consensus conclusions of human-rights organizations, NGOs, scholars and other experts on house demolitions.--G-Dett 15:53, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

(Outdent, ec) -> Human rights organisations, far less advanced than what we have now, helped rescue 1 million Jews from Russia to Israel (and many more elsewhere?) in the 1980s. I can't rememeber whether the Soviets were given a right of reply or not, or whether anyone in the West dared challenge the claims being made. I can guarantee that western sources treated any and all such deniers with disdain. It seems strange to do a 180deg turn and claim that the modern day equivalents (with both local and international observers and proper recording of what is happening) are not reliable now - and that those who dispute these reports must be given a respectful hearing. PalestineRemembered 07:34, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Isarig has in interesting thought there. Perhaps something we can expand on. Amnesty is clearly biased as they are against human right violations so statistics on human right violations can not be used. The police is biased against crime so their statistics on crime can not be used. Doctors are biased against sickness so their statistics on sickness can not be used. // Liftarn

Yes, indeed. Gives a whole new meaning to neutrality. --Marvin Diode 23:46, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Protected

I was afraid this would happen. I've protected the page for a week to stop this edit war - I was hoping that you guys would agree on the scope of the article and your sourcing before jumping in and editing it. Maybe now this can happen. I don't have time right now, but later on today I'll post some suggestions on how to proceed. -- ChrisO 08:05, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

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