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I removed the book cover

I have removed the image of The Audacity of Hope book cover from this article; the only mention is "The first, The Audacity of Hope, was published in October 2006. An Italian translation was published in April 2007, and a Spanish translation will be published in June 2007. It has remained on the New York Times Best Seller list for the 30 weeks since publication." While it identifies the book, it adds no significant content to the article that words could not alone. Note that my statements are not impugning the article's editors, but I strongly feel that the use of the image is not a fair use but is instead simple copyright infringement. --Iamunknown 07:18, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

It's also clear to me that this book cover, while perhaps nice to have here, does not meet agreed standards for use of non-free images on Misplaced Pages. Policing fair use is a thankless, but necessary job, and I think Iamunknown's contribution deserves (at minimum) some kind of counterpoint. I've also requested comment at Misplaced Pages:Fair use review. --HailFire 19:41, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

My counter-point was very simple, stated in the edit summary: I agree with User:Tvoz's rationale as provided on the image's page. Where is the line drawn with regard to authors? Italiavivi 21:36, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

In the real world this would certainly be accepted as fair use. I think the Misplaced Pages policy is out of control and excessively restrictive, which is a frequent problem here (e.g., the you tube hysteria of some months ago). This is a good example of an the appropriate use of an image to illustrate a section - it is not gratuitous. Common sense and the real world ought to hold some sway in the formulation of Misplaced Pages policy. Tvoz |talk 00:16, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Take this up on the policy talkpage, then. Until the policy is changed, the image cannot be used in this way. nadav (talk) 12:57, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Text added giving critical commentary and political significance. WP:FUR now seem happy. Jheald 23:28, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Trying this edit, quoting critical commentaries by notable reviewers. I think the text now has the right weight and puts both works in an informative biographical context. Perhaps even the non-free image can now be justified. Thanks Iamunknown for flagging the issue, to the editors at Misplaced Pages:Fair use review for your comments, and to all who pitched in with rewrite ideas. --HailFire 21:20, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Thats a great copyedit and content addition, HailFire. Thanks for your work.  :) --Iamunknown 02:46, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree, nice work. Italiavivi 02:49, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

well, I don't know wich translations you guys wanna mention in the article but a German version is out now too. Just to let you know.. --217.235.39.246 20:11, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Infobox/religion

"United Church of Christ" is not Obama's religion. He is Christian. United Church of Christ is his denomination. How do we fix this? — goethean ॐ 14:23, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Excellent point, I just changed it to Christian (United Church of Christ). Does that work for you? --Bobblehead 14:31, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Yup, thanks. — goethean ॐ 22:31, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Archive 9

Who did the last archive? What is the point in archiving just one line of text? JayKeaton 06:34, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

It was the auto-archiver. Archive 8 was full, so when Miszabot archived that section it moved it to archive 9. Never fear, though, the archive will start to fill up shortly. --Bobblehead 06:42, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I see. I don't usually bother checking the edits on high traffic/controversial pages, so I wasn't familiar with auto archivers. Thanks for taking the time to tell me ^_^ JayKeaton 17:27, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Rezko house

The neutrality of this article is disputed. Relevant discussion may be found on the talk page. Please do not remove this message until conditions to do so are met. (Learn how and when to remove this message)

Tag placed because RFC in progress. POV tag should be removed at the end of the RFC, not later or earlier.Feddhicks 23:25, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

The sentence about the Rezko house is moved (text unchanged) to the body of the article. This is to avoid the appearance of trying to hide information as the original information was in tiny print hidden in the footnotes.

Nothing bad is said about Senator Obama. In fact, mention of it clears him. Hiding it makes it look like campaign supporters are trying to hide information. It is a fact that Senator Obama has the most internet supporters that any candidate of either party. It is likely that, among the hundreds of thousands of his internet supporters, that at least 1 or 2 of them use wikipedia and write for it.

This is different from the Muslim school controversy, which is a non-issue and is in fine print hidden away. Feddhicks 17:17, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

As you well know, this has already been debated, discussed and consensus reached. Tvoz |talk 18:04, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I looked at Archive 8. There was no censensus. Some people want a whole lot about the Rezko controversy. So putting everything in fine print and hiding it is the extremist viewpoint. The other extremist viewpoint is to say that Senator Obama is a crook. The neutral point of view is a neutral statement which is not hidden. Feddhicks 18:41, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

A REQUEST FOR COMMENT HAS BEEN SUBMITTED. Facts of case: Some say there has been a consensus, others say not. Some say that consensus can change. Facts of the case: Some want a detailed description of the Rezko affair. Some (me) want a brief, neutral statement. Some want the statement in very small print hidden away in the footnotes. Feddhicks 19:06, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

(To the others, this may be the best way instead of edit warring. Let's see what others say.)

Here's some links to previous discussions on this topic.--Bobblehead 19:38, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

• A "Why isn't there any criticism in this article" extended discussion that includes Rezko.
• A proposal to remove mention of Rezko from the article.
• A discussion on a criticism section that includes Rezko.
• Another discussion on the criticism section including Rezko.
• Another discussion on the topic.
• A tangentially related discussion.
• As part of an exhaustive survey on the inclusion of various topics in the article.
• Another extended discussion on the subject.
• The long discussion in response to another RFC.
• Yet another extended discussion on the subject.

Request for comment answer:
I am only partially commenting. Small print is hard to read. It should be regular print if in the body of the article or bold print if in the footnotes (otherwise nobody will see it). Which one, I have no opinion because there are too many links above for me to read and ponder. Plumbing 03:30, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Please note that User:Plumbing's account was created on 22:38, 4 July 2007, shortly after the RfC that the user replied to was started, which seems curious especially since the argument given centers on the size of the type, as per this comment which was removed hours before this user posted the above. I suspect yet another sock. Tvoz |talk 06:39, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Tvoz, you are too suspicious. There is mention of the print size in the RFC. You are out of line about that. You are correct about socks. I strongly suspect Plumbing is a sock of DreamGuy, a POV pusher.Mikkke2 16:17, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually it was removed before "Plumbing" could have read it, unless he wrote the RfC or carefully researched the RfC's edit history which really doesn't make a lot of sense. Thanks for giving us the names of more Derek socks, including, perhaps, your own. See this. Where have I seen this before? Tvoz |talk 17:18, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

And this is likely another one - smae argument, same language, same person. Tvoz |talk 00:04, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Please stop discouraging RFC comments which you do by launching personal attacks on people, like User: Plumbing. See what someone wrote about User:Plumbing, reproduced as follows: it just seems to be an account that is popping through multiple RfCs and doing what is requested, offering comments. --Elonka 20:01, 5 July 2007 (UTC) Further retorts and arguing just discourages any further editors from RFC comments because they don't want to be attacked. I doubt you will listen, but please try. Feddhicks 18:08, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Comment - I am satisfied with the footnote mention of the Rezko relationship. My understanding from previous discussions (see Bobblehead's list above) was that most editors agreed that the controversy/relationship was notable but to give it more than a sentence or footnote mention would give it undue weight (compared to other more significant topics in this article). Other political candidate articles have used similar techniques (footnote mention of notable but minor controversies) such as Ron Paul. I hope this helps. Best regards. Jogurney 19:59, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Ron Paul's article doesn't use tricky tactics as this article. That footnote further expands on a sentence in the article. The Paul article says there is controversy and explains the controversy in the footnoot. The Obama article makes no mention of the house controversy and then hides a one sentence in the footnotes that mentions the controversy. The Ron Paul footnote is in normal print. The Obama footnote is in such small print that some people can't even see it. Therefore, Jogurney's logic proves there is a problem.

SteveDufour removed the POV tag because he said "no topic was added to talk page to discuss possible problems" This shows how bad the small print in the footnote is. Steve read the personal life section and then looked at the talk page and didn't see any personal life discussion. However, the footnote is part of the personal life discussion. It is so hidden that a veteral editor, one who has edited Barack Obama more than hundreds and is in the top few editors as far as number of Barack Obama edits, did not even see it. This proves that the small print is a problem. Feddhicks 16:43, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't presume to speak for user:SteveDufour, but he probably didn't see this discussion on the Talk page. I believe if you use the POV tag correctly, it is easier to see where on the Talk page the relevant discussion is located. I think you place this POV|Rezko house inside the brackets. Then, when someone clicks on the POV link, they are directed to this section. Best regards. Jogurney 17:23, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Congressional box

This is an article about Senator Obama. Why is there a huge infobox at the end listing all of the US Senators?????

It just waste room. If one is really, really cynical, they might say that it is there to show that Senator Obama is just one of many, many Senators and try to imply that being a Senator is nothing. I think it just wastes room. Feddhicks 17:17, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Project policy. Tvoz |talk 18:11, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Navigational boxes like this are used in many articles, and I believe they are useful. Best regards. Jogurney 20:02, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

#2 after Clinton

A sentence has been changed mentioning Senator Clinton. This article is about Senator Obama, not Senator Clinton. So a sentence has been changed like this (see article for exact text)..Obama placed second in the polls after Clinton.. Feddhicks 17:25, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

The mention of Clinton was totally appropriate here. Tvoz |talk 18:12, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Correction made in the beginning part

Senator Obama is THE leading candidate, not among the leading candidates. At least in fundraising. Give the man credit where credit is due. This is only fair, whether or not you like the man or not. Feddhicks 17:29, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I think we have the return of the sock here.Tvoz |talk 17:53, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Everyone who agrees with me is not a sock, everyone who disagrees with me is a sock???Feddhicks 18:37, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

There are certain aspects about your recent editing on this article that are similar to those of Dereks1x (talk · contribs). And then there is the whole trying to defend an obvious sock thing... But all in all, most of the edits, particularly the one about Rezko has been covered over and over again on this article and general consensus is that it is adequately covered. --Bobblehead 18:51, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

See archive 8. Show me where the consensus is? If you show me, I will agree. Tvoz called me a sock, I did not say the word. Feddhicks 18:56, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

An obvious sock. Even if the ban is in limbo at the moment, it's not appropriate to create multiple socks to avoid the scrutiny of other editors per WP:SOCK, and other currently active socks are known. Second, the user cannot legitimately claim to be keeping heated issues in one area as the policy allows, as the user has used multiple socks on this article. Because of my prior experience with this user, however, I have essentially exhausted any persuasiveness I had on point, so I will not block the sock myself. · jersyko talk 20:05, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Understandable. I hope that another admin will pick it up, however. See the Rfc respondent above as well. As far as I can see, the ban itself has not been contested - only one of the proven socks, for unclear reasons. Tvoz |talk 06:42, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

more books?

I read in the German article that Obama has signed a contract to write three books after the success of "Dreams from My father" of which "audacity of hope" is the first one. The second one is going to be a children's book which he's going to write together with his wife and the third one is still unknown. Can you guys confirm that? Why is it not mentioned in the article? I'm guessing everything is put on hold as long as he's running for president... Anyways, can anyone confirm the information? And is there some kind of update to it? thx, --217.235.39.246 20:26, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Muslim?

A few months ago I read this same article and I remember reading that Barack Obama swore into office on a Quaran. And he also attended muslim schools overseas. Now that information is gone? Was it true and removed because it made him look like a Muslim? Or was that information false? Please who ever answers: be honest. 138.163.0.46 17:02, 7 July 2007 (UTC)CJR

Completely false. Wizardman 17:13, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

You are thinking of Rep. Keith Ellison who was sworn in on a Qu'ran, not Sen. Obama. Italiavivi 21:04, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

• Somebody's been listening to Rush Limbaugh again. (Mind meal 14:18, 8 July 2007 (UTC))

Drip Drip Drip

As a presidential candidate, Barack Obama is being scrubbed as he never has before. His prior campaigns were for lower offices. And in his 2004 U.S. Senate race, attention focused less on him than on primary and general election opponents who had their own serious problems. But this campaign cycle's scrubbing of Obama leads to another water analogy: News stories that raise ethics questions about his relationship with indicted dealmaker Antoin "Tony" Rezko have become a steady drip, drip, drip.

Before anyone accuses me of not WP:AGF, let me explain it seems curious as to why there is no mention of any of this, or any other controversy that Obama has been involved in, in the article, or conversely a fork. I have seen attempts to include this information here, and the continual removal of it could be interpreted as gatekeeping and article ownership. As the election begins to unfold, criticism sections on nearly every single major candidate have appeared; I don’t understand why this one has become unique. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 18:31, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm actually an Obama supporter (full disclosure), but as a Misplaced Pages editor I have to somewhat agree with User:TDC. I think the Rezko thing warrants a *small* mention (more that just a note like it is now). Whether or not Obama did anything wrong is not really the point, the point is that there was a controversy around the issue. Again, i don't think there should be a whole long section on the Rezko thing like some people want, but I think it atleast deserves a mention of a sentence or two somewhere. Bjewiki 19:35, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

You don't take a very minor matter and blow it up into something major just so you can show that you have a controversy. That is POV. The note covers the matter adequately, as does the Rezko separate article. There is no there there. Tvoz |talk 20:14, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

The questions are, at what point does a "minor" controversy become one of a magnitude significant enough to be mentioned in the main body of the article? and when presented with a recurring "minor" controversy, how to present it in an NPOV manner without giving it undue weight? Answering those questions is the hardest part about the Rezko relationship issue. The Chicago Tribune and Times have spent a lot of ink rehashing this story to pretty much say "It doesn't appear that Obama did anything wrong, but here's what happened anyways..." and it has been picked up in other national papers to some extent, either mentioned in passing or full articles. The big thing one must remember is that just because something is "notable" it doesn't mean it's notable enough to make it in the article.--Bobblehead 22:04, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I do believe the Rezko incident should be mentioned; it says a lot that people keep coming to the talk page to ask about it. I heard about it a month or so ago, went to the Misplaced Pages page and found nothing on it (I did not see the footnotes, and neither would most users) and thought it was odd because I like coming to Misplaced Pages to get a balanced version of events. I know this has been discussed before, but I'm just giving my two cents on the issue, as I think there should be mention of it and it's odd to leave it out.--Gloriamarie 05:14, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Of course the footnote gives a link to the complete article at Antoin Rezko which is easily reached by a search on "Rezko" if someone was so inclined. Tvoz |talk 05:43, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

The "footnote" looks like more of an attempt to bury it rather than address it.Torturous Devastating Cudgel 15:57, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

This is actually the same thing I thought when I saw the footnote. Bjewiki 16:24, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Cultural and political image

I don't understand how this section is deemed purposeful. This is an encyclopedia after all, where do we make the cut? Most important of all, this random section of the Barack article, with random tidbit from random people at the end is just unfair, if its to stay, then more politicians, aka the candidates, should have such a section with the same random tidbits. I mean what the point of all those ultra politically oriented comment from the opposition in the end? yea they are quoted in the media... the utterly reliable media

http://en.wikipedia.org/Barack_obama#Cultural_and_political_image — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tehjord (talk • contribs) and 70.83.7.57

Maybe it's me, or the heat, but I really do not understand what you're talking about - and are you one person or two? Tvoz |talk 04:44, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Umm, why is there no mention of his controversial church

Its doctorine is as racist and as afrocentric as just about any church I've ever seen. No one forced him to attend this church. If I look on David Dukes wiki will it talk about his stint in the KKK? Ok, I just looked. Heh. It does have KKK stuff. So, uhh, again, what's the deal with the double standard. He chose the church, it did not choose him.68.187.117.71 08:17, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

link to the racist church doctorine KillerPlasmodium 10:07, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

You guys are hilarious. Fifty7 15:12, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Sandy Georgia asked (?) me to stop being so easy going and start editing the truth

See talk pages above for reasons for edits. Feddhicks 17:53, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

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