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Frenectomy in the intro paragraph

Jakew and the Cabal claim bias with inclusion. See their comments above.

I reiterate that because frenectomy in integral to circumcision ... required to complete ~25% of circs, only done along with circs, and potentially caused by circs ... the reader should have reference to the procedure in the intro. Again, it is a critical component of circumcision. See the intro that existed for years before the Cabal deleted...

Circumcision is the procedure that removes some or all of the foreskin (prepuce) from the penis. The frenulum may also be cut away at the same time, in a procedure called a frenectomy. The word "circumcision" comes from Latin circum (meaning "around") and caedere (meaning "to cut").TipPt 15:53, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Based on my above discussion with Jakew, it is clear that a majority of the sources cited in the procedures section make reference to the frenelum as well as the foreskin. I would suggest fine tuning the above wording, perhaps by removing the word "away" since apparently the frenelum may also be cut through without being removed. Whatever the particular phrasing, I agree that the frenelum should be included in the definition of circumcision since it is clearly a part of the penis involved in the procedure. Zandrous 11:06, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Given the discussion above, it sounds reasonable to me to include mention of the frenulum in the intro. --Coppertwig 22:20, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

It appears that there is sufficient evidence to include mention of the frenelum in the intro. Now the question becomes, do we have sufficient sources to mention frenectomy specifically, or just the frenelum as a part of the penis involved in the procedure? I could not find mention of frenectomy in the sources that TipPt provided links to in the above section entitles "Avi Reverts Away Frenectomy." TipPt, if I am missing something could you direct my attention to the mentions of frenectomy? Zandrous 12:52, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Frenectomy has its own article, and, in my opinion, while it should be referenced somewhere in the section on methodology, it is inappropriate for the lead. -- Avi 14:38, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree. However, I think mention of the frenelum belongs in the definition in the lead. Zandrous 17:08, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

This article is about circumcision in general. The frenulum is a detail that may or may not be involved. It doesn't belong in the lead. Jayjg 01:20, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

TipPt's continued lack of civility

For someone who “honestly apologized” for inappropriate remarks about other editors, espcially vis-a-vis use of the term “cabal,” on July 15, your further posts, Tip, are indicative of your insincerity, and perhaps duplicitousness, as can be seen from

-- Avi 14:46, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Leading paragraph

1) Is cutting also not "customary" in Israel (which isn't on the list unless counted as "Muslim" or considered part of the United States; either of which POVs seem far fetched in either direction). 2) What is the "other" bit in "so it is not prescribed in other forms of Christianity." other to "some African churches you mean? Surely "is not prescribed by the major Christian denominations" makes less of a tail wagging a dog? --BozMo talk 16:48, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestiions.Michael Glass 01:56, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

It is probably best not to try to list such countries. It may be perceived as an exhaustive list. The World Health Organization include the following (source):

...using published data from the DHS and other sources 13, 53, 54, we estimated the number of non-Muslim and non-Jewish men circumcised in countries with substantial prevalence of non-religious circumcision (Angola, Australia, Canada, Democratic Republic of Congo, Ethiopia, Ghana, Indonesia, Kenya, Madagascar, Nigeria, Philippines, the Republic of Korea, Uganda, United Kingdom, the United Republic of Tanzania, United States).

The information may also be subject to change. Another WHO document advises that Eastern and Southern African nations have elected to scale up male circumcision. Jakew 11:32, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Positions of National Medical Associations

I updated the positions of the national medical associations with careful citations and the updates were removed. For instance, the article incorrectly states that the Canadian Pediatric Society "does not recommend routine circumcision". That was their 2004 position. Since 2007, they recommend that routine circumcision "should not be performed". I quoted the new position and cited it and yet my update was removed. It is simply not honest to pretend that they still just do not recommend the procedure, when they now actively recommend against it. Similarly, I cited the position statements of the Royal Australasian College of Physicians and their New Zealand counterparts stating their position that routince circumcision should not be performed. These too were removed from the article. It is not honest to pretend that these organizations do not recommend against circumcision.

Edwardsville 16:09, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

First, the source you cited is dated 1996, not 2007. It notes that a revision is in progress as of May '07.

Second, your claim that "This is a significant change from earlier policy, which was simply not to recommend circumcision." was completely unsourced and violated WP:NOR.

Third, they do not state that they recommend against the procedure. They do, however, comment on the specific case of circumcision as a routine procedure: "The overall evidence of the benefits and harms of circumcision is so evenly balanced that it does not support recommending circumcision as a routine procedure for newborns."

Finally, your "quote" from the RACP is not their recommendation but is itself a quote from a third party. Jakew 16:28, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I cited the wrong page. Thank you for pointing out my mistake. I should have cited

The claim that it is a strenghtening of the old policy is confirmed by the citation at the end of the paragraph, like everything else in the paragraph.

If you find the lack of the word "routine" misleading (and you shouldn't, since no medical association is against the prodedure when there is a medical reason) you could have just removed the word.

The correct place for the RACP quote is here.

Edwardsville 16:52, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Hey - you also removed citations showing that the American Medical Associations, and the other national medical associations in the west, say that circumcision is painful and anesthetic should be used.

Edwardsville 18:12, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Seixas Family?!?

There is text beneath the picture on top of the article that says:

Seixas Family circumcision set and trunk, ca. eighteenth century Wooden box covered in cow hide with silver implements: silver trays, clip, pointer, silver flask, spice vessel.

Which "Seixas Family"? There is mention of some Seixas Family in this text without explaination (or helpful wikilink) about what or who this Seixas Family is. This should be fixed to avoid confusion.

Also, this picture of little wooden box looks creepy in its context. --antiXt 20:42, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Uhm,... anybody!?! Please do not ignore - do something constructive instead of constant fighting. Both sides. --antiXt 17:56, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Follow the image link, it is a library of congress picture. -- Avi 16:42, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't say which "Seixas Family" is this about, so it would be good to either put an helpful wikilink or remove information (in this article) that this creepy wooden box belongs to/belonged to some "Seixas Family". And why is "Seixas Family" capitalized like that? --antiXt 13:55, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Edits and reverts

I support many of the edits that Edwardsville made today, and except for a few of them, I don't see explanations on the talk page as to why they were reverted. I hope to find time to comment in more detail later. --Coppertwig 22:56, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Most of them are personal opinions. Jayjg 01:18, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Circumcision is a painful operation and the American Medical Association, like other national medical associations in the west, state that it should only be performed with anesthesia . Doesn't sound like personal opinion.

While there is debate about whether penile sensitivity is lost, it is obvious that there is a loss of sensation from the foreskin. A case where something on which there is no debate is targetted? Verifiability over truth, I guess. We cannot verify whether a male gets sensation from his severed foreskin. Wow -- and you wonder why I make Orwellian references on this discussion page. In any case, Jayjg, maybe you could restrict your edits to what you consider opinion rather than wholesale reversion as is common here. Blackworm 09:12, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I suggest that you contemplate, for a moment, the consequences for the article if it could include anything that is 'obvious' to at least one person. The article would be a mess of unverifiable, non-neutral, and perhaps self-contradictory nonsense. There is a very good reason why policy requires us to only include information that is explicitly stated by a reliable source. Unfortunately, the claims which you've quoted above do not come close. Jakew 11:03, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

It is not a question of "at least one person." No one I would judge to be sane would claim that the owner of the foreskin derives sensation from his severed foreskin after circumcision. The good reason behind using RS's should not allow us to take leave of our reason. This is clearly a case of WP:IAR if there ever was one: ultimately, the section is better with that sentence than without it. But there are so many better examples of totally disputed claims, incorrect and misleading summaries, POV-forks, and even a reference to something published by you, Jakew -- an active editor, in a laughably clear breach of conflict of interest. When presented with the evidence, you simply deny and revert without any logical explanation or even any denial of obvious logical contradictions. Four or five strong willed people, with two having administrative power, are enough to keep this charade going forever. Despite someone erasing the totally-disputed flag (without any consensus reached here), you can be sure this article is, in fact, totally disputed. Blackworm 08:21, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Comments on some edits that were reverted:

"Indeed, Galatians 5:2 appears to forbid the practice, though few Christian churches uphold this rule." This sounds like opinion: it might "appear" to some people to forbid it. An exact quote from Galatians might be OK (though is it sufficiently relevant for this article? Maybe in an article on circumcision and religion?) or your statement backed up by a reference to a source that gives that opinion about Galatians.

"Indeed, in Galatians 5:2, he goes so far as to say "behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing" . " This is verifiable. Again, I'm not sure whether it's needed. I think the whole religion section should be shorter in this article, and most stuff like this moved to an article about circumcision and religion.

"Some organizations have been formed as support groups for men who are resentful about being circumcised" (changed "upset with" to "resentful about") I support the "resentful about". It sounds more specific and accurate to me. "Upset" sounds undignified, like a general loss of control over one's feelings rather than a specific feeling about a specific thing. Alternatives include: "who wish they had not been circumcised", "who feel regretful about..." etc.

"Circumcision is a painful operation and the American Medical Association, like all western national medical associations, recommends the use of anaesthesia . Despite this, Stang, 1998, found only 45% ..." I support this edit. References are given to support the assertions. Jayjg said in an edit summary while reverting, "rv POV and/or OR edits to last by michael glass". Please support your statement that these assertions are POV. Please find references stating that circumcision is not painful. The reference given clearly states that neonates show signs of pain (reaction to noxious stimuli).

Re Taddio 1997. I'm not sure I can immediately see this study online. Could someone fix the link and/or provide a quote here on the talk page from that article to support the statement that they say the results are speculative? (I might be able to do this later.)

"While penile sensitivity may or may not be reduced by circumcision, it goes without saying that all sensation is lost from the foreskin." I support including this sentence. It's a good summary of the next couple of sentences, and is much easier to quickly understand what is being said. It's not unverifiable: it's supported by the reference(s) described in the sentences that follow it.

"As of 2007, the Canadian Pediatric Society recommends that "circumcision of newborns should not be routinely performed" . This is a significant change from earlier policy, which was simply not to recommend circumcision. " I support including this information. It's important and relevant, and supported with a reference.

". It states that circumcision "should not be routinely performed" , It recommends, " I support this edit. It's supported by a reference. It looks like an accurate representation of the position of that association. It's quite relevant to this article.

"This is also the policy of the Paediatric Society of New Zealand Cite error: A <ref> tag is missing the closing </ref> (see the help page)." Do they really have exactly the same words? Someone should check. Whether or not, the policy of this organization also deserves to be mentioned in this article.

I hope to have time to comment on some other edits later. Feel free to discuss the above. Please put your comments here: --Coppertwig 17:06, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

(unindenting) Let me reply in turn:

• "Indeed, Galatians 5:2 appears..." agree: opinion.
• "Indeed, in Galatians 5:2, he goes so far as to say..." -- Need to eliminate "goes so far" and "indeed", but the quote itself is not a problem.
• "Some organizations have been formed as support groups..." -- ok, agree with you.
• "Circumcision is a painful operation" -- reference does not explicitly make this claim. Furthermore, "like all western national medical associations" appears to be OR.
• Re Taddio 1997, see here. The final paragraph reads: "The post-hoc nature of our analyses and the small sample sizes make our conclusions speculative. Nevertheless, we suggest that analgesia should be routine for circumcision to avoid possible long-term effects in infant boys' pain responses." (emph added)
• "While penile sensitivity may or may not be reduced by circumcision, it goes without saying that all sensation is lost from the foreskin" -- personal opinion. It is unverifiable. It may be a verifiable fact that such an argument has been made, however.
• "As of 2007, the Canadian Pediatric Society recommends that "circumcision of newborns should not be routinely performed" -- wrong. The source cited, as noted above, is dated 1996, not 2007. It is already summarised in the text. The comment that "This is a significant change from earlier policy, which was simply not to recommend circumcision" appears to be pure original research.
• "It states that circumcision" -- as noted above, this is not the recommendation of the cited source, but is in fact a quote from a different document. Thus it severely misrepresents the source.
• "This is also the policy of the Paediatric Society of New Zealand..." The RACP policy is a policy of several sub-organisations, including the NZ society. There's no particular reason to name each of these individually. Jakew 18:57, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you very much for taking the time to reply in detail. I edited in "resentful about". More later. --Coppertwig 21:05, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

• Re Galatians 5:2, I agree that "goes so far" and "indeed" are implying a particular point of view and that the quote itself might be OK without them.
• Re pain: Here's another reference:

OK, this and the other reference may not state explicitly that there is pain. They indicate that newborns undergoing circumcision have higher-pitched cries, changes in heart rate and other reactions usually associated with noxious stimuli. How about if we say something like "Newborns undergoing circumcision without anesthesia show higher-pitched cries, changes in heart rate and other reactions often associated with pain." However, please answer this question: do you doubt that circumcision is painful? Are you actually challenging the assertion that circumcision is painful, and are you not personally convinced that it is? If no one is seriously challenging the assertion, then I would prefer to keep a shorter, simpler statement such as "circumcision is a painful procedure", to avoid unnecessarily complicating the article and taking up the reader's time. I think that given these references, the statement that circumcision is painful is not likely to be challenged.

• Re the link to the Taddio article: Thanks for providing a link. I think the references section in the article needs to be fixed up a bit. We now have two articles: Taddio 1995 and Taddio 1997. The first seems to be a preliminary study and the second a similar but more complete study. For the first one, the link you provided gives the full text available without registration. I think it would be a good idea to put this in the references list for the benefit of readers who would like easy online access to the text. The second, better study apparently requires registration at The Lancet to view it. The link given in the references section goes to a page saying something like "page not found" (if you're not logged in). I think we need to fix this to go to a useful link, such as a page at The Lancet that displays at least the title of the study to people who are not logged in. Although registration is free, it takes time and requires providing personal information and agreeing to terms and conditions, which is why I think it would be useful to list both studies in the reference list.

The 1995 study says the results are "speculative". The 1997 study includes a somewhat larger sample size and is "prospective", and does not contain the word "speculative".

Here's a quote from the 1997 study. I suggest that we include these words or something very similar in the article: "Despite evidence that circumcision causes intense pain and short-term alterations in infant feeding, sleeping, and crying behaviours,1–3 analgesia is rarely given."

• Re "like all western national medical assocations": good point. I think it would be unwise to make a generalization like this in the article: it could turn out to be wrong, (it's hard to even define the list of which countries this means). Better to list the particular medical associations being referred to. Unless maybe there's a good quote from a reliable source making this claim.
• Re sensation in the foreskin: please answer: do you seriously believe that people with their foreskin removed do not necessarily lose all sensation in their foreskin? The paragraph in a version of the article you reverted was:

"While penile sensitivity may or may not be reduced by circumcision, it goes without saying that all sensation is lost from the foreskin. Boyle et al. (2002) argued that circumcision and frenectomy remove tissues with "heightened erogenous sensitivity," stating "the genitally intact male has thousands of fine touch receptors and other highly erogenous nerve endings—many of which are lost to circumcision." They concluded, "Evidence has also started to accumulate that male circumcision may result in lifelong physical, sexual, and sometimes psychological harm as well.""

If you're seriously challenging the statement that all sensation is lost from the foreskin, how about a statement like "the circumcised male has lost the ability to feel sensation with the part of the body that was removed." I think this is an important point, obvious once pointed out but that might not occur to a mother considering having an infant circumcised, so it's important to include it in the article. Maybe you could suggest a different wording?

• Re Canadian Paediatric Society The 1996 statement says "Circumcision of newborns should not be routinely performed." The website says this statement is under revision. I agree that (without more information, anyway) we shouldn't say there's a significant change in policy.
• You're right: New Zealand is covered by the RACP. The RACP statement (Australasia) says "The CPS recommended 'Circumcision of newborns should not be routinely performed'... . ... the RACP concurs with these statements and endorses ... that 'Neonatal male circumcision has no medical indication'". I think these statements should be mentioned in the article. --Coppertwig 16:04, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
• Re pain control: The CPS statement says "The evidence of the need for pain control is strong,". The RACP statement says "Circumcision is now generally performed with local or general anaesthesia". Edwardsville, I don't see statements that anaesthesia "should" be used. If I missed them, perhaps you can supply them to support your statement. --Coppertwig 16:30, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Jakew, please explain in more detail why you deleted this part: " and endorses statements by other medical societies that "circumcision of newborns should not be routinely performed" and that "neonatal male circumcision has no medical indication"." How is that a "mispresentation"? Rather than simply deleting it, would you please put it back in and edit it so that in your opinion it's no longer a misrepresentation? Would it be OK with you if I put into the article the following exact words from the position statement: "The CPS recommended 'Circumcision of newborns should not be routinely performed' ... the RACP concurs with these statements and endorses ... that 'Neonatal male circumcision has no medical indication'"." That's wordier than what I originally put in and I think the increased wordiness is unnecessary, but if you think it's necessary to avoid a misunderstanding it's OK with me. Do you think even more words are needed to fill in the parts where I put three dots? --Coppertwig 16:38, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

The first problem is that the source is slightly unclear: it does not specify whether they mean that they concur with the policy statements cited ("statements"), or with the specific sentences ("statements"). The second problem is that the CPS and AAP statements belong in the relevant sections, not under Australasia. The third problem is that the RACP are already quoted as saying that "there is no medical indication for routine neonatal circumcision", and we do not need to introduce repetition. A final problem is that to include quotes with which the source agrees is a poor reflection of their own policy, and appears to be an example of cherry-picking words in order to present circumcision in the most negative light possible, rather than to fairly represent the sources. Jakew 17:06, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

• Re pain, you ask "Are you actually challenging the assertion that circumcision is painful, and are you not personally convinced that it is?" My main concern is with the fact that we should not make a claim that is not explicitly stated by a source. My personal view, since you ask, is that circumcision without anaesthesia is likely painful, but that circumcision with appropriate anaesthesia is not.
• Re the Taddio study, we must always link to the text at the publisher's site in preference to CIRP. Please see Misplaced Pages:Convenience links#Reliability.
• Re your suggestion that "Here's a quote from the 1997 study. I suggest that we include these words or something very similar in the article", I think this is a poor idea. The purpose of that study was not to assess how frequently anaesthesia is given, so it can only be considered an opinion.
• Re sensation in the foreskin, I'm more concerned with accurate sourcing and the absence of original research than with my own view. Incidentally, our purpose is not to convince mothers to circumcise or not to circumcise, but only to summarise reliable sources. Please see WP:NOT. Jakew 16:39, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

• Thanks for your replies. Re pain: Oh, I see what you mean: we can't just say that circumcision is painful, because it isn't when anaesthesia is used. You're right about that.
• Re the Taddio studies: It's strange. The 1995 study is listed as a reference in the 1997 study, referring to it as another Lancet article, but I can't seem to find it on the Lance website. Maybe just linking to the 1997 article is fine, but at least the link should be fixed so it doesn't say something like "page not found" to people who are not logged in. I might attempt to do this later.
• Re the quote from the 1997 study: perhaps you're right.
• Re sensation in the foreskin: no comment for now.
• Note my comment above asking you to explain what you meant by "misrepresentation" -- you might have missed that due to the edit conflict. --Coppertwig 17:13, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

• Re the RACP statement. I don't see how any of that adds up to "misrepresenation". The statement with "...should not be..." seems to me to be a stronger statement than "no medical indication"; anyway they don't mean quite the same thing. Therefore I would like to see both or at least the "should not be" one included. (The "neonatal male..." one is pretty much just a repetition of "no medical indication" and not needed, as you point out.) Since they state in their position statement that they "concur" with this, I think it's quite fair to state that that is their position. As to being unclear: whether they mean that they concur with those sentences or with the whole position statement containing those sentences, either way they do concur with those sentences since they're contained in those position statements, so any such lack of clarity if present is irrelevant for our purposes here. --Coppertwig 17:50, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

That a statement appears to be more strongly against circumcision is a very poor reason for inclusion. We are not an anti-circumcision website, and we have a non-negotiable policy of neutral point of view. That means that we can't collect the most anti- (or pro-) circumcision comments in a source and present them together. Instead, we must ensure that we fairly summarise the most representative points.

I agree that they concur, and that this is part of their policy statement; however it is far from a key point and as such a rather poor choice of quote to use in summarising their statement.

Finally, the ambiguity presents us a problem. If they meant that they agree only with those sentences in the statements, then such a quote does not misrepresent them. If, however, they meant that they agree with the entire statements from the AAP and CPS, then it would misrepresent their position if we cherry-picked only certain phrases. Jakew 18:46, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't misrepresent their position to quote the very sentences they chose to quote when they were saying that they concurred. The strongest sentences are the most interesting. If they have a strongest pro-circumcision sentence perhaps we should quote it too. --Coppertwig 19:11, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I can only suggest that you write an essay on the subject of 'interesting quotations about circumcision'. The article, however, is part of an NPOV encyclopaedia. Hence, the priority is to present sources in a fair and representative manner. Jakew 10:13, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

(<<<outdent) The strongest sentences in a position statement are the most representative of that position statement. --Coppertwig 17:08, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

What's your basis for making such an assertion? Jakew 18:02, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Please give your opinion about how to select the most representative statement(s) from a position statement, if you don't agree with mine. --Coppertwig 21:32, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I acknowledge that it is a hard problem. In general, I would say that 1) such statements are to be found in the organisation's own 'conclusions/summary/overview/recommendations' section, 2) that they should be their own words, rather than a third-party quote, 3) that they should be relatively self-contained and qualifiers should not be excluded, and 4) that they should cover the policy regarding both routine and elective (including religious) circumcisions. That's not an exhaustive list, but it is at least a start.

I should note that, in the footnotes, we have fairly complete quotations from the organisations already. Jakew 10:35, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm impressed, really. You've managed to find an objective way to choose one sentence rather than another from a position statement -- though I wouldn't necessarily want to be restricted always to the summaries of things. I guess when the position statement has something in bold type, that's sort-of a clue, too. --Coppertwig 01:31, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

There is no valid reason for "4) that they should cover the policy regarding both routine and elective (including religious) circumcisions" unless you insist that the strong societal stigma against saying anything negative against religious circumcision carry over into watered-down, non-medical, PR statements about all circumcision. Statements about circumcision which are freed from the stigma of offending those who circumcise for religious reasons, are the most fair, balanced, and in a medical context, accurate statements. That's why we don't have any in the article (Jakew reverts them). And by the way "routine" circumcision *is* "elective." Blackworm 20:32, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I mean that their policies regarding both routine circumcision and elective circumcision should be included, Blackworm. If, for example, the AAP were to release a statement in which they stated that no circumcisions should be performed for any reasons, then that could certainly be included. As it stands, however, few (if any) major medical organisations are opposed to elective circumcision.

As for elective vs routine, I am using routine to mean "for all infant boys" and elective to mean the parents choosing/electing the procedure, as in:

• "Scientific studies show some medical benefits of circumcision. However, these benefits are not sufficient for the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) to recommend that all infant boys be circumcised. Parents may want their sons circumcised for religious, social and cultural reasons. Since circumcision is not essential to a child’s health, parents should choose what is best for their child by looking at the benefits and risks."
• "Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision. In the case of circumcision, in which there are potential benefits and risks, yet the procedure is not essential to the child's current well-being, parents should determine what is in the best interest of the child."

Hope that helps. Jakew 20:48, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

The word you are looking for to describe "for all infant boys" is "universal," not "routine." No one is discussing universal circumcision. Routine infant circumcision is a reality today. Circumcision happens routinely. Elective circumcision essentially means "circumcision not performed for a health reason, but at the request of the parents," which is exactly why most (if not all) medical associations "do not recommend" elective circumcision. Your response is confused and illogical. Blackworm 06:03, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you need to read through the above two quotations more carefully, Blackworm. Jakew 10:12, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Dispute tag

The dispute tag is accurate. There's currently dispute as to whether circumcision is (always) surgery, and whether the strongest statements from medical association position statements can be quoted in the article. Also the large section on religion occurring before much (or any?) mention of any harm or risk has been pointed out as being non-neutral. Etc. --Coppertwig 22:36, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Nevertheless, although what the dispute tag says is accurate, it was not appropriate to put it on this article at this time, at least not in the way it was done. See Template:dispute and Misplaced Pages:Accuracy disputes. To use the dispute tag properly, I think you have to have disputes about at least five parts of the article, and you have to state clearly what they are and have a link from the tag to a section of the talk page that lists them. The tag only had a link to the top of the talk page. There has to be a way to know whether the disputes which were the reason for the tag have been resolved. The disputes I'm aware of don't seem to me to be enough for the disputed tag, and especially not the totally-disputed tag. I apologize for having commented above without first reading the instructions for dispute tags. (There are, however, some ongoing disputes that still need to be resolved.)

When adding, removing or changing dispute tags or other tags at the top of the article, please say in the edit summary exactly what tags you're changing. The article is no longer semi-protected, so please don't put a semi-protected tag on it. --Coppertwig 17:06, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Removed "Skin Bridge" Photo

I believe this photo was removed because it was obviously of an underaged child.71.198.175.226 22:42, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm confused as to which image you mean. Does that explain this edit? To reduce confusion, editors should state the reason in the edit summary. --Coppertwig 16:56, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

To clarify, the photo showing an example of the skin bridge was removed but it has since been put back up by another use. It clearly appears to be the photo of an underage male, and as far as I know this is not legal to post even in medical use. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Why would it be illegal; it is not pornographic? -- Avi 21:02, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

It's still not clarified. Someone didn't sign their post, but worse than that, they didn't specify which image they're talking about. --Coppertwig 21:23, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Arbitration of content

The issue is content. The circumcision article is not factual in it's omission of highly pertinent facts, it's emphasis on relatively irrelevant information, and it's gross misrepresentations of fact.

I won't raise related issues again, and will have a concise list of topic problems in about a week.TipPt 19:21, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Definition of "vandalism"

In Jayjg's most recent edit, in which his edit description reads: "cleaning up the rest of some old vandalism," the following content is removed:

", though it is not prescribed by the major Christian denominations. It is not requirement of the other great world religions."

Misplaced Pages's official policy on vandalism states: "Apparent bad-faith edits that do not make their bad-faith nature inarguably explicit are not considered vandalism at Misplaced Pages."

Since none of the other definitions of vandalism in the policy seem to match this deleted material, then Jayjg, could you support your apparent claim that this material is both in bad faith, and that its "bad-faith nature" is "inarguably explicit? Blackworm 09:03, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Good point. Please use accurate, useful edit summaries, everyone. I await Jayjg's response. --Coppertwig 12:59, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Article too long?

Is it just me, or does this page take a long time to load into a browser compared to a short page such as Canada's Food Guide? Maybe because it has so many references -- I think it takes time to process the footnotes. It might be a good idea to move some of the material into subpages. --Coppertwig 23:04, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

The idea is to do that eventually, but for some reason it continues to be pushed off. Most likely due to the constant disputes. I'd really like to merge the Medical aspects with the medical article. Jake, is the latter ready? -- Avi 23:14, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

To do so would be a blatant POV-fork. Why not create a "religious aspects of circumcision" page and merge all the religious aspects to that article? Blackworm 00:35, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

This article in itself should still be balanced, but it can be supported by other articles focussing on religious or medical aspects, and it can be shorter on the whole. Many of the references can be moved to those other articles, allowing this page to load more quickly. (I think there's too much about religion in this article anyway -- it would be good to move most of it to an article on religion and circumcision.) Alternatively, if the references are formatted a different way (not using the footnote feature) the page may load faster. They could look the same in the display but the wikitext would be more complicated. --Coppertwig 04:06, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Black, please read WP:SUMMARY for an explanation of what was suggested. Summary style article construction is not a POV fork. In our case, "Medical" aspects is SO large as to justify its own article (which it actually has!). Should we be able to work out an NPOV compliant (and remember what NPOV means; it does NOT mean NO point of view) section, THAT IS SUFFICIENTLY LARGE, it too would merit its own article. POV forks are something different. Please see Misplaced Pages:Content forking. Thank you. -- Avi 15:51, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

The thing is, you can't have it both ways. The pro-circumcision authors controlling this article want to define circumcision as "a surgical procedure" (surgical = legitimate, good, beneficial, sterile, performed by experts -- *all* debatable POV notions carried by the word) in the first sentence of the article, but relegate the ugly, grisly medical details of circumcision, as well as any mention of the *actual* debate and controversy surrounding circumcision in the medical community, to a subpage they know most people won't read. Meanwhile, they encourage having a *larger* religious section in the main article, emphasizing circumcision as a tradition to be honored and respected. I don't buy it. It's a POV-fork. Offload the negative material regarding circumcision into subpages (most of this work has already been done), and retain and slowly add more positive material. Intimidate dissenting voices with tag-teaming and administrative threats, and maintain control. Since the #1 hit on Google for "circumcision" is this article, you control the absolute truth for millions of people. Fork away all that nasty "medical" stuff -- except how great circumcision is for AIDS, of course; that, I'm sure, will take up half the exclusively pro-circumcision summary. Blackworm 03:51, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

(unindenting) Blackworm, it would really be appreciated if you could assume good faith and avoid making incivil accusations. I think that somewhere in there you're making some points that are at least worthy of serious discussion, but frankly if you make them in such a hostile and accusatory manner then it only makes people (including myself) reluctant to do so. Jakew 12:30, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Pain

(The subject now seems to have changed from article length. In order to facilitate discussion of both subjects, I'm therefore creating a new section for the following. Other than changing the indentation I'm not making any changes to the text, which was formerly a part of "Article too long?". Jakew 10:48, 5 August 2007 (UTC))

I guess at this point I'm wondering what purpose this entire discussion page serves, when the boldest editors simply edit and revert to their liking, and make horrible, illogical arguments as to why such edits/reverts should remain in place. Eventually, when a topic has been "debated" enough, they ignore the discussion which by then passes into "Archive xx" and is lost forever (i.e. ignored). The net effect is, the article stays wildly biased. It's August 2007 and Jakew, you are arguing against inclusion of the phrase "circumcision is a painful procedure" when it is found verbatim is several of the exact same references you use to make pro-circumcision claims. I know you've read them, you know you've read them, so why not help the article by fixing the reference instead of reverting the claim? Your user page gives us the answer: your goal is not to improve the article, but to eliminate anti-circumcision POV from the article. When you add three or four others who seem to have the same goal, two of whom being administrators making threats exclusively against those who seem to want to include anti-circ material or exclude pro-circ material, while policy breaks by others go ignored, then you don't have a working, dynamic, growing article, you have what we have here -- a farce. I realize I'm "not contributing," but as far as this article is concerned I think whether you're seen as "helping" or "hurting" just depends on which side of the circumcision debate you are on. (And yes, there is a debate, it's not just "anti-circumcision zealotry" like our administrator Jayjg claims.) Again, show me once that you are willing to end this charade and *really* practice what you preach, and I'll be right there working as hard as I can to help. But continue to oppose or support all edits based on their content, while claiming it's based on policy or guideline and making weak arguments that don't support your claim, and I will continue to see this for the game it currently is. Blackworm 20:53, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Blackworm: Will you please list the references that say "circumcision is a painful procedure" (and perhaps give the page number and where on the page they say it)? I was looking for references like that. --Coppertwig 00:04, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

• "Newborns experience pain during circumcision." Circumcision: Position Paper on Neonatal Circumcision. American Academy of Family Physicians (2007). http://www.aafp.org/online/en/home/clinical/clinicalrecs/circumcision.html
• "Circumcision is a painful operation." http://cks.library.nhs.uk/patient_information_leaflet/circumcision
• "ASPMN recognizes that neonatal circumcision is a painful procedure." ASPMN Position Statement on Neonatal Circumcision Pain Relief http://www.aspmn.org/pdfs/Pediatric%20Circumcision.pdf
• "Neonatal circumcision is a painful surgical procedure often performed without analgesia." New England Journal of Medicine Volume 336:1197-1201, April 24, 1997, Number 17 -- Efficacy and Safety of Lidocaine–Prilocaine Cream for Pain during Circumcision, http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/336/17/1197

It's true, it's verifiable, and gosh darn it, it will never find its way into the Misplaced Pages article on circumcision except presented as speculation, conjecture, something to be ignored, from a few of the anti-circumcision zealots, like the crazy so-called "New England Journal of Medicine," or those kooks over at the "American Academy of Family Physicians," which is really just a front for a bunch of anti-Semites. Blackworm 05:52, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

You forgot the official policy statement of the American Academy of Pediatrics, which states “there is considerable evidence that newborns who are circumcised without analgesia experience pain and psychological stress”. "Circumcision Policy Statement", Pediatrics, Volume 103, Number 3, Pages 686-693, March 1, 1999. I put that citation in the article. Naturally, it was immediately removed. This article is indeed a joke. The positions and conclusions of the world's major medical organizations are ignored and are consistently removed when it doesn't support circumcision, while individuals who are in favor of circumcision get quoted. Oh, of course, the AAP gets quoted when people like what it says - but as soon as it says that circumcision is painful, it gets ignored. Edwardsville 18:43, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

The policy section already contains the words "Analgesia is safe and effective in reducing the procedural pain associated with circumcision; therefore, if a decision for circumcision is made, procedural analgesia should be provided." Jakew 19:09, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and I note yet again that all reference has been removed to the joint policy statement of the Paediatrics & Child Health Division of The Royal Australasian College of Physicians, the Australasian Association of Paediatric Surgeons, the New Zealand Society of Paediatric Surgeons, the Urological Society of Australasia, the Royal Australasian College of Surgeons, Paediatric Society of New Zealand. In this statement, they clearly say that "circumcision of newborns ought not to be routinely performed". The quote is cited directly to the home page of the Royal Australasian College of Physicians (http://www.racp.edu.au/download.cfm?DownloadFile=A453CFA1-2A57-5487-DF36DF59A1BAF527), yet it immediately vanishes as soon as it appears. Edwardsville 18:51, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid you're incorrect. This RACP document is referenced in several places in the article, and is discussed in the section Circumcision#Australasia. It does not contain the phrase you quote above, but it does contain the phrase 'The CPS recommended "Circumcision of newborns should not be routinely performed"'. Note that this quote is not their own policy, but is attributed to another organisation. It is misleading to claim otherwise. Also, it is a single statement, and it should not be misrepresented as two separate statements. Jakew 19:09, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Nonsense. It says clearly that it is their own position, agreeing with the other groups. It says:

The CPS recommended "Circumcision of newborns should not be routinely performed" (reaffirmed February 2001: (www.cps.ca/english//statements/FN) and the AAP concluded "we can not recommend a policy of routine newborn circumcision". (www.aap.org/mrt/factscir.htm). Following the present review of the evidence, the RACP concurs with these statements.

Please note that it is not just the RACP, because this is the joint policy of all the groups I mentioned above. I provided the link and anyone who follows it can see perfeclty what is written there. http://www.racp.edu.au/download.cfm?DownloadFile=A453CFA1-2A57-5487-DF36DF59A1BAF527 Follow it and read it again

Edwardsville 19:40, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and while we are at it, I notice that the two links to anti-circumcision groups that I provided in the "opposition" section were taken out. Do you disagree that these groups oppose circumcision?

And while you are here, are you going to stop removing quotes from national medical associations stating that circumcision is painful?

Edwardsville 19:40, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Hey, here's another quote from the American Medical Association that I put in and that got taken out again. It was in the section on the policy statements of medical organizations and was cited directly to the AMA's website. The American Medical Association states that "virtually all current policy statements from specialty societies and medical organizations do not recommend routine neonatal circumcision, and support the provision of accurate and unbiased information to parents to inform their choice."

Now why was that taken out of the article? Because it isn't relevant to a section on the policies of major medical organizations regarding circumcision? Because it isn't an important fact? Because the American Medical Association isn't a sufficiently important authority?

Edwardsville 20:52, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you very much for providing those references, Blackworm and Edwardsville. I think I understand a point that I think Jakew was making earlier: that it would be misleading to say something like "circumcision is painful" because of course, when it's performed with anesthetic, it might not be. Therefore I think rather than saying "circumcision is painful" or words to that effect, that we say something along the lines of "circumcision without anesthetic is painful." (I think we don't know whether it's painful (always or sometimes or never) when anesthetic is used. I think at least sometimes there's still some pain. (This is not a proposal to say that so in the article.)) Therefore I think the quote Edwardsville gave above is a good one.

Jakew also made the point that it already says "Analgesia is safe and effective in reducing the procedural pain associated with circumcision; therefore, if a decision for circumcision is made, procedural analgesia should be provided." I would like to reply here that this is not at all the same thing. This quote does not state that there is pain. This quote strongly implies that there is pain at least sometimes; i.e. it does not rule out the possibility that some circumcisions without anesthetic are painless. The other quotes state that there is pain (something that is merely implied here) and strongly imply that there is pain in every such procedure if anesthetic is not used (something that is not even implied by the quote Jakew mentions). Therefore I think we do need to say something along the lines that "circumcision is painful...". I think it would be OK to take one of the other quotes and insert, inside square brackets, something like "when performed without anesthetic", since that is obviously (to me) what is meant. But, as I say, I propose adding the quote Edwardsville gave above (i.e. the AAP quote, "there is considerable evidence that newborns who are circumcised without analgesia experience pain and psychological stress".) --Coppertwig 22:00, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't see the harm in including the "there is considerable evidence" quote in the 'pain' section (if it isn't already - I haven't checked), but I don't think it would be appropriate to include it in the main policies section. Firstly, as I've noted, we already have a quote referring to pain & pain management, and while you (correctly) note that it doesn't discuss exactly the same issue, one seems enough. Secondly, of the two quotes, the "Analgesia is safe and effective" quote is arguably more 'policy-ish' (pardon my lousy English) than the other, since it explicitly states what should be done.

Regarding pain, Lagarde et al (Acceptability of male circumcision as a tool for preventing HIV infection in a highly infected community in South Africa. AIDS, 17(1), 89–95) reported on traditional circumcision procedures in South Africa. 42.6% described the traditional procedure as "very painful", 34.4% as "mildly painful", and 18.5% as "not painful". There are also other studies, in which local anaesthetic was used, in which participants described the procedure as "painless". Clearly, then, we cannot make a blanket statement that circumcision is painful. More cautious wording is warranted. Jakew 22:30, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I see what you mean about "policy-ish". I put the "there is considerable evidence..." quote into the Pain section, and rearranged things a bit so it would flow smoothly. --Coppertwig 01:07, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Edwardsville, the AAP quote says "physiologic", not "physiological" as you quote them above. Please be careful when you use quotation marks. Thanks for finding the quote, though! --Coppertwig 01:19, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

If the reliable source says "circumcision is painful" that is good enough to warrant inclusion. It is not our job to decide that they are wrong because of our own thoughts and feelings about the matter. To do so would be ]. I notice Jakew has not argued my point about this directly -- he has done exactly what I said he would. Obfuscate, deny, stall, "discuss." The sources say "circumcision is painful." It will not be allowed into the article because it casts circumcision in a negative light. It's plain and simple for everyone to see. Blackworm 03:09, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Problematic edits

Once again, certain problematic edits have been made to the article (eg. ).

There are countless problems with them, including:

1. Dramatic changes (restructuring) of the policies section with neither explanation or consensus.
2. Cherry-picking of the most negative quotations, rather than the most representative. As WP:NPOV cautions: "In these types of disputes, it is important to note that verifiability lives alongside neutrality, it does not override it. A matter that is both verifiable and supported by reliable sources might nonetheless be proposed to make a point or cited selectively"
3. Misrepresentation of sources (for example, still attributing "circumcision of newborns should not be routinely performed" to the RACP, in spite of the fact that this was a quote from a third party). I've already explained this problem above; there is a distinction between Bob quoting Alice as saying X and Bob himself saying X.
4. Misleading repetition: the edits includes the same policy (RACP) under two different sections, creating the misleading impression that these are two different statements.
5. Inclusion of the American Cancer Society text. The same quotes (albeit a fuller, more representative version of the first) are included elsewhere in the article - they should only be included once. Since the ACS identifies itself as a volunteer organisation, and is not itself a professional medical body, it is inappropriate for inclusion in this section.

Jakew 12:29, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

1. Consensus doesn't mean that you agree. Check out some of the opinions that people have been posting about your edits. Your personal opinions do not override those of the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics and so forth.

2. If you think the most negative quotations have been cherry-picked, stick in some positive ones that you find for balance. So far, the article has ignored and misrepresented the opinions of the major medical organizations. But if you think you can balance things, post away. It is not my habit to remove something from the article just because I disagree with it, so your comments will be safe Just make sure that you cite your sources carefully. It is about time that we paid attention to what they are actually saying, not what people wish were being said.

By the way, it is ludicrous to suggest that it is cherry-picking to point out, as the article did not before, such things as that the American Medical Association states that "virtually all current policy statements from specialty societies and medical organizations do not recommend routine neonatal circumcision, and support the provision of accurate and unbiased information to parents to inform their choice" or that the American Medical Association and American Pediatric Society say that circumcision is painful. Not including these facts is simply biased. It is pretending that medical opinion is something other than what it is.

3. Read that RACP policy statement. It very clearly states, and I very clearly quoted, that the RACP policy agrees with the quoted policy of the Canadian Paediatric Society. They say "here is what the Canadian Paediatric Society said and we agree with that". For goodness sake, read the policy statement.

4. It doesn't say that they are two different statements because it gives the same attribution. The policy is relevant to both sections.

5. If the opinion of the American Cancer Society, which is run by doctors, is not relevant, then the opinions of no researcher on the subject of cancer is relevant to the article. But hey, if you want to make a truthful and well-cited comment about the ACS after the quote from them, go right ahead. This article is supposed to be about the truth after all.

Edwardsville 19:14, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

1. WP:CONSENSUS does not mean that I, specifically, agree, but it does imply (loosely speaking) that most editors (of which I am one) do. Neither the AMA nor the AAP have attempted to edit Misplaced Pages, as far as I know, and unless and until they do, it is pointless to speculate about what they would want to do with this article.
2. In terms of the 'policies' section, the article already represents a fair and balanced selection of quotations, with fuller quotations in footnotes, in accordance with consensus at a former AfD. The attempt to imbalance is itself a problem, and a summary is often made worse, not better, by adding text.
3. I have read the RACP article, as should be quite obvious from the fact that I not only corrected your misquote, but observed the fact that you incorrectly attributed these words to the wrong source. Hypothetically, I might agree with, say, your point 5 above, but it would be completely erroneous to claim that I had stated those words myself. Even if this misattribution were fixed, there is still a problem remaining: given that we obviously cannot quote the entire policy statement, we must select the most represent parts, and a quote from a third party with which the source happens to agree is a very poor choice. It contributes to the distinct impression of cherry-picking anti-circumcision quotes from the documents, rather than taking representative quotes.
4. Quoting the same policy statement under two different sections gives a very strong (and misleading) impression that they are two different statements. There is absolutely no need to do so, moreover, since the statement was cited, perfectly adequately, under 'Australasia' - a term that includes both Australia and New Zealand.
5. What evidence do you have that the ACS is 'run by doctors', as you claim? Furthermore, please note that I have not objected to citing the ACS in the cancer section, only to duplicating the content and representing it as a medical association policy statement. Jakew 19:35, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Edwardsville, re your edit that Jakew cites at the beginning of this section: Please don't make any extensive changes to the article, or any changes however small which include matters that have recently been under discussion here, without first quoting your proposed changes here, discussing and reaching consensus. Please don't make changes that move whole paragraphs unless that is the only change you make in that one edit and you use a word like "moving" in the edit summary to explain what you're doing (otherwise at first glance in the diff link it looks as if you've added or removed large parts of the article; see the diff link Jakew gives above.) You can make other edits immediately before or afterwards if it's OK to make such edits for other reasons. (Maybe you weren't moving paragraphs and it's just the way the diff link is that makes it look that way. I can't figure out what's going on in that diff link -- too many changes. Maybe you could just make fewer changes per edit to help make things easier.)

I agree with Jakew that the statement "circumcision of newborns should not be routinely performed" should not be presented as if the RACP said it. Note also that this statement, and the RACP's agreement with it, already appear under Canada in the policy section; it would be too repetitive to say it again elsewhere in the article. I didn't see the wording Edwardsville used. Here's an idea: in the Australasian section, very briefly point out that they concur with a Canadian statement and refer the reader to the Canadian section, without repeating the statement itself.

Edwardsville, you said: ' They say "here is what the Canadian Paediatric Society said and we agree with that". ' I feel that it's very important, especially in a discussion of this nature, that when you say "they say" and then use quotation marks, that you give only the exact, unedited words -- which is not at all what you've done here, I believe. --Coppertwig 21:45, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Please read the policy statement, Coppertwig. The RACP do say it. They are giving their policy and they are saying that it is the same as the Canadian Paediatric Society. Look, don't take my word for it - you can email them and ask them. This is how the RACP and every bioethicist understands it.

They are giving their policy and they are saying that it is the same as the Canadian policy. That is why their agreement with the Canadians is included in their policy statement. There is no semantic difference between stating "X" and stating "the claim X is correct".

Edwardsville 02:53, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Jakew,

1. It is not pointless to speculate what the national medical organizations would want in their article. They would want their conclusions and recommendations stated in this article.

2. The policies article did not include a fair and balanced selection of quoations. It contained gross misrepresentation by leaving out key parts of the policies of national medical organizations.

3. No, it is not obvious that you read the article, because you seem to have missed that the RACP was endorsing the Canadian policy. The wording used is in the policy for which I have given the citation. Please read it again.

4. Australia and New Zealand are two separate countries with two different sets of medical organzitions who do not have to have the same policies. Do you want to lump the US and Canada together under North American statements?

5. The American Cancer Society is a national medical organization. Look it up.

Edwardsville 03:00, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Taddio 1997

The article now says "This statement referred to a study by Taddio, 1997, who found a correlation between circumcision and intensity of pain response during vaccination months later, but stated that "actors other than circumcision may account for the observed differences in pain response."" The full paragraph in the Taddio study is:

"Factors other than circumcision may account for the observed differences in pain response. For example, there may be differences in genetic attributes, socioeconomic status, and parent-infant interactions between people who have their sons circumcised and those who do not. However, race and socioeconomic status did not differ between groups in this study and there were no observable qualitative differences in the way parents interacted with their infants during the vaccination."

I think it's misleading to quote the first sentence of this paragraph without providing the qualifying information given later in the paragraph. I suggest either deleting the "factors other than circumcision..." quote (preferred), or adding However, race and socioeconomic status did not differ and no qualitiative differences were observed in the way parents interacted with their infants. (Note: what I'm suggesting to add is not the exact words of the study; it's rearranged a bit for brevity (summarizing) but is intended to mean the same thing. The exact words are given above.) --Coppertwig 01:29, 7 August 2007 (UTC) Clarification: I didn't mean that any editor here was intentionally misleading. I only meant that if the first sentence of the paragraph is given, then for balance the part after "However" also needs to be represented. I had meant to avoid using the word "misleading" because the word itself can be misleading, but I forgot. --Coppertwig 01:50, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

1. http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/13585.html
2. http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/13585.html
3. http://biblebrowser.com/galatians/5-2.htm
4. http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/13585.html
5. http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/13585.html
6. http://www.cps.ca/english/statements/FN/fn96-01.htm
7. http://www.racp.edu.au/hpu/paed/circumcision/index.htm#toc
8. Boyle, Gregory J (2002). "Male circumcision: pain, trauma, and psychosexual sequelae". Bond University Faculty of Humanities and Social Sciences. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
9. http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/13585.html

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