Revision as of 12:12, 11 August 2007

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Comments

Turkish politicians

I will put back the photographs of three notable Hamshenis of Turkish politics in the info-box, as it goes for most info-boxes. I see that there has been source problems. I will shift the photograph of the woman to some other place in the article. Also, please do not erase talk page stuff, and I am not sure that the purpose of a wikipedia article's talk page is to direct readers to yahoo discussion groups. I had put a mention of this article in the page for the town of Hemşin, the world may not look the same way from there. Cretanforever.

I say leave the infobox as it is. I think it's just better to allow the photograph of the Hamsheni woman to remain in the article as she best represents the ethnic group. To me, if we just have Turkish politicians in the infobox who are partly Hamsheni or of Hamsheni descent then we really aren't really representing that ethnic group accurately. Besides, the articles for the Turkmen and the Uyghurs only have one image representative of their ethnic groups. Why can't this be the same with the Hamshenis?

I removed the comment regarding the ASALA above because it was vandalism. The user (153.2.247.30) who placed it on this talk page has been cited earlier for making POV statements in other articles such as in the University of Texas at Austin article. I removed the statement on the Hamsheni Yahoo group as well. I don't believe that advertising of any kind is allowed on Misplaced Pages, but I checked the background of the anon who wrote that piece as well. This user (193.255.230.227) was also cited for vandalism. -- Clevelander 15:18, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

We can remove Mesut Yılmaz, whose Hamsheni descent is rather distant and very partial anyway, we can the put the lady in the middle of the infobox, and Ahmet Tevfik İleri and Murat Karayalçın to the right and left. Especially İleri is a favorite son who made it to the top for most Hamshenis, and he has rendered great services to Turkey. I have nothing against the folk dress and the pastoral landscape but the reader should not be left under the impression that that's what Hamshenis are all about. They live in a society and many are urbanized. I also have photographs of bagpipe (tulum) players that I will add and I will develop Hemşin page with a stress on the fantastic landscape. Regards. Cretanforever

Okay, I'll agree to that. I shall re-add Karayalçın and İleri immediately. -- Clevelander 22:24, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Hamshenis in Russia

"Recently, most of the Muslim Hamshenis in Russia who were forcibly moved by Stalin to Kazakhstan, wish to have their own cultural organization in the Krasnodar Krai in Russia. The action was continously denied by Krasnodar officials and has prompted an organization of their co-ethnics and co-religionists in Armenia itself to appeal to the Russian ambassador in Yerevan to get Moscow to intervene in this case and overrule the regional officials who seem intent on preventing Hamshenis from gaining official registration." Does this mean that there are Muslim Hamshenis "in Armenia itself"? Citation needed. Behemoth 23:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I know that sounds a bit off, but I sourced it from this article: http://www.fsumonitor.com/stories/051205Russia.shtml. Perhaps we should just remove it for ambiguity (though I can't help but think that this has something to do more with the Christian Hamshenis than the Muslims). -- Clevelander 02:03, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

In fact, there is no ambiguity. But the event is not that Muslim Hamshenis "wish to have their own cultural organization". This is; they are not considered as Kazakh citizens by Kazakhstani authorities nor given Russian citizenship by Russian authorities and they try to register in the Krasnodar Krai and want a permanent residence there. However, Russian authorities simply don't want them and approach them like as they do with other "Meskhetians". Russia is currently just waiting for the US to take them to America, as it was agreed with the International Organization of Migration in 2004. The sole ambiguity is that the report refers to people from Armenia as the "co-religionists" of Muslim Hamshenis. I think this could be removed and the paragraph re-added to the text. Behemoth 02:36, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I am of Hamsheni origin (Northern, Christian). I have corrected the "Culture" section where it was mistakenly stated that hamshentsis are primarely fishermen. No, Northern Hamshentsi's primarely grow tobacco, all kind of citrus trees, silkworms, tea and corn as well as other types of agriculture. Some, maybe, are fishermen, but you don't see firshermens nets and boats all around like you would in other areas. Now, I suspect there are some fishermen out there but this is not what they northern hamshenis primarely do. ( Just curious, what was the source for that info?.. )

I think Russian spelling instead of "Кхэмшыл" should be "Хемшил". That's more correct.

Also, the word "Homshetsma", used in this article, I first heard from Dr. Bert Vaux.

I think it came from one of his informants from an Eastern Hemşinli group. Our Northern Hamshentsis (Christian), as far as I know, do not use that particular word. Most of the time we call our language simply "hayeren = Armenian". However, the way we prononce that word is different from what it would sound from a regular Armenian speaker. We use the sound "ä" a great deal in our speach, so it would sound like "häyren". Often you hear "mir lizu = our language", and even rarely "h'mshen(tsu) lizu". avetik

Hamsheni international scientific convention in Sochi

What was the source of information about "Sevan" cultural center's active support for Hamshen conference?.. According to the editor of Yerkramas newspaper, "Sevan" leadership actually boycotted that event, and it was organized and sponsored by "Dashnaktsutyun":

Просто в статье мне резанула слух одна строчка о том, 
что сочинский "Севан" выступил спонсором конференции. 
Это ложь. "Севан" в лице своего руководства конференцию 
саботировал. А что касается организации и финансирования 
конференции, то это сделала партия Дашнакцутюн. 

Avetik 18:14, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

See here: http://www.yerkir.am/eng/?sub=news_arm&day=18&month=10&year=2005&id=19852 -- Clevelander 18:47, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I see, but there is nothing about "Sevan", that was the objection. Avetik 20:26, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Oops, I meant this link: http://president.panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=14879&date=2005-10-04 -- Clevelander 20:30, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Dear Clevelander,

Ok, notice all these will be future tense sentences in the article you citing, and the date it came out?.. This was what Yerkramas announced prior to the event. However, according to the same source, as of yesterday, the Yerkramas newspaper confirmed that "Sevan" cultural center not only did not participate, but actually sabotaged this event, and instead it was organized and funded by Dashnaktsutyun party (see my note earlier). Let's not be negligible here: if it caught somebody's eye, it may be an important matter. If Encyclopaedia mentiones one sponsor, but for whatever reason does not mention another major sponsor, a reader may suspect a bias, which I don't think was your intention. I'm just trying to apply some common cense here.

Kind regards,

Avetik 21:27, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I see. Do you have a source that confirms this? -- Clevelander 22:02, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Sure. You can write Yerkramas publisher and editor Mr. Tigran Tavadyan ( info at yerkramas dot org ) to confirm this information. After reading Misplaced Pages article, he personally emailed me on this topic asking to please correct the information... Avetik 14:59, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I think this version should work . -- Clevelander 22:17, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Many thanks! Avetik 14:05, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

WPTR tag

By putting the WPTR tag, i was not disputing that they were armenians, I know that. but I put the WPTR tag since it is a turkey related topic, feel free to add WP Russia and WP Georgia tags as well..:)) Kars is also in WP Armenia, we have to be inclusionist.. :) Baristarim 20:40, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I see now. That's fine. -- Clevelander 21:37, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Small question

I really hate to be a prick by asking this, but it would be really nice if somebody put some sources that attest to Hamsheni origins of Mesut Yılmaz and Murat Karayalçın.. I put a fact tag a month ago, and while I understand that this is not a very busy article and therefore provokes much less interest, it would be nice if somebody actually tried to dig up some sources on this. The thing is I have no idea if they are Hamshenis or not, they could be or they could not be.. Frankly, I don't care either way. But remember that these are living people, and as such fall under the same rules governing living person Bios, which state that claims about living people have to be substantiated thoroughly.. I will let the fact tags stay for a long while again, till someone comes up with some info on this.. cheers Baristarim 04:26, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Both Gomno (Yaltkaya) and Çinçiva (Şenyuva) are Hamsheni villages. But you still put factual accuracy tags. Of course, it will not be possible to convince you in any way because your motives are obvious. Without editing a line and probably not even caring to have knowledge on the subject, you are trying to minimise the content of the article and mistify its significance. Behemoth 14:35, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

AGF. The thing is Murat Karayalcin article was created just recently by me. It exists now, and you can add those info there with sources. Improve first, then attack, or better, never attack. deniz_C

Listen, I read that Hurriyet interview from top to bottom, and to infer from that article that he is a "Hamsheni" (the subject of this article - the ethnic group) really takes some skill. He is from the town "Hamsen" - there is nothing in the article which suggests that he belongs to that ethnic group - that is a vio of WP:OR. The guy is explaining how he was a Grey Wolf when he was young, and from this you are deducing that he is a Hamsheni (the ethnic group)? That's one hell of a stretch. Again, see WP:BLP - bios of living people have to be sourced rock-solid. Are you suggesting that everyone from a city have to be of the same ethnic background? That's also a big stretch. Please do not add back that Hurriyet interview as a source for that claim. Btw, please watch for civility Benemoth - what are "my motives"?

I have been really patient with this article, and will stay for a while as well. So before I put another POV tag, I would like to point out that a fundamental analysis is missing from the groups section: the primary self-identification of these people today. The section (and some of the article) is definitely talking as if there is a huge Hamsheni movement or something, and is twisting a lot of words (like how newer generations and leftist consider themselves as Armenians). Most of these people wouldn't define themselves as Armenians primo today, and the degree of assimilation to the mainstream Turkish society is also curiously missing. I am not putting the tag just yet, but if that issue is not addressed I will, just a note before anyone accuses me of having "motives" :) Baristarim 18:47, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Here you go:

Hemşinliler, tarihte farklı toplumsal kökenden gelmiş olsa bile toplumlar birbirini karşılıklı etkilemektedir. Türk toplumu ile Hemşinliler arasında etnik ya da dinsel bir sorun yoktur. Hemşinli olup ülkemizde devlet yönetimine gelmiş eski başbakanlarımızdan Mesut Yılmaz ve eski Dışişleri bakanlarımızdan SHP Genel Başkanı Murat Karayalçın buna en iyi örnektir. Bir çoğunuz Mesut Yılmaz veMurat Karayalçın’ın Hemşinli olduklarını belki bu sayfaları okuyunca öğrenmiş oldunuz.

Khoikhoi 05:40, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry, but there are many web-sites out there who claim a lot of things. The text you quoted itself says "I am sure that you have learned that Yilmaz and Karayalcin are Hemsinli reading these pages" (the last sentence). Says a lot, doesn't it? There are also websites out there who claim that even Hatay is a part of Kurdistan and all. In any case, the article says "from Hemsin", it is not clear if it is the ethnic group. Most importantly, since these concern the bios of living people, we cannot simply take the claim of a minor web-site and present it as rock-solid fact. In the Hurriyet interview, he is talking about how he was a Grey Wolf when he was younger, don't you think we need a bit stronger sources than karacaahmet.com? He never mentioned anything to that effect, it is pure speculation, both for Yilmaz and Karayalcin, I can find no mention of this in any serious sources, let alone sources part of a "wide-concensus" - and let me remind that Yilmaz was a PM and Karayalcin was a deputy PM and mayor of Ankara: There is tons of documentation about them, and none of them mention this.

I still stand behind my second comment about the info missing from the groups section: there is no info about any assimilation rates, and I wonder if we are not simply presenting the thesis of only one author at this stage. What is also missing is a other sources about the presence of a seperate ethno-social seperate ethnic identity. Lacking these, the article has some serious POV problems since it is simply publishing the thesis of only one unknown author. Baristarim 11:48, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Barış, can you please translate the exact words from the karacaahmet.com source? Since he is mentioned in a section called, "HEMŞİNLİLER", I assume the article says he is Hamsheni. (Hemşinli (=Hamshenis) olup ülkemizde devlet yönetimine gelmiş eski başbakanlarımızdan Mesut Yılmaz ve eski Dışişleri bakanlarımızdan SHP Genel Başkanı Murat Karayalçın buna en iyi örnektir. Bir çoğunuz Mesut Yılmaz veMurat Karayalçın’ın Hemşinli olduklarını belki bu sayfaları okuyunca öğrenmiş oldunuz.) Unlike other sources prevented so far, this source meets WP:RS because it cites sources of its own, just like it should. I know your gut tells you he was Turkish, but saying, "since he was a Grey Wolf, he coudn't have been Hamsheni" constitutes original research. He could have been assimilated for all you know. As for your remark about the documentation, remember that the question of ethnicity in modern Turkey is a highly debated and difficult issue. It wouldn't make any sense to list Karayalçın in a section called "HEMŞİNLİLER" if he were an ethnic Turk. Khoikhoi 19:55, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I wish we had access to the source there, Erhan G. Ersoy's book, see this. I e-mailed them, they might send me the article. deniz_C 10:16, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

The number of Hamshen in Turkey

According to an Armenian researcher there are 100000 Hamshen in Turkey and not 400000. Here is the link http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=3459 It makes no sense to exagerate the number of Hamshen in Turkey. Orrin_73

You need a reliable source. Nareklm 20:08, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

There was a link in hyeforum, I assume you did not read it. Orrin_73

I did read it its a forum those don't count. Nareklm 00:09, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

someone had posted a link in the forum to a study! It is not that someone in the forum said! The claim that there are 400000 hemshin in Turkey is absurd.Orrin_73

Okay man! anyone can change numbers on forums! when you get the link presenting the numbers than put it! Nareklm 01:02, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

400,000 is supposedly the total number of Hamshenians, more than 100,000 being from a Russian city. deniz_C 10:22, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Major Revision Proposed

The article misses an objective treatment of the topic of Hemşin and its history.

It touches to the facts that the majority of people of Hemşin identify themselves as ethnic Turks and they speak Turkish only (except for Hopa-Hemşin people). I believe that the authors would also agree with the fact that the people of Hemşin proper and (except for language) Hopa-Hemşin culturally associate themselves with the rest of the Turkish population in Asia-minor, within some local and natural diversification.

However, the article poses a very biased approach by presenting these people unquestionably to be of another origin (race?) and culture, against their own perceptions. This biased and in my view misplaced attempt is supposedly justified based on incomplete studies of the culture, language and history by some researchers of a certain school of thought.

The one sided presentation of the subject throughout the article is against the Misplaced Pages policy of NPOV. This makes it very difficult to revise the article on a sentence-word basis and requires a major revision. In accordance with Misplaced Pages policies, I first want to discuss possible changes to the article in this talk page with the contributors of the article to reach a consensus, and then proceed to edit the article to come up with a Misplaced Pages policy compliant presentation.

Here below some basic statements:

1) Even though there has been a limited number of old texts (partially conflicting) regarding the Hemşin area, the modern day historians and linguists have only recently focused on the Hemşin region in terms of its civilization history and linguistic background.

2) To date, there has not been any conclusive consensus on the ethnical(?), cultural and linguistic roots of the "Hemşinli" leading to different schools of opinion.

3) In this article the term Hemşinli does not only refer to the present day people of Hemşin proper and Hopa-Hemşin but also to various peoples who once in history had connection to the Hemşin area. Naturally, there are differences to varying degrees in cultural, folkloric, religious and linguistic traits of these people. Consequently, the article shoud avoid giving the impression that any information or inference related to a specific group of "Hemşinli" is also necessarily valid for all other groups of the "Hemşinli" as well.

Before proceeding any further with the detailed discussion and editing, I want to first make sure that we all have a consensus with the above points. Such a consensus would enable us to have a healthy and productive discussion on the article. Omer182 12:12, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

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