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Revision as of 14:35, 11 September 2007

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Allow spoiler tags for two years

I'd suggest some slight changes to the original suggestion... allow the spoiler section tags throughout the text (and on all character sub-articles and the like) during the 'post release' period. Yes, they look bad... which is why hiding them was the first thing I did when I found out about user .css pages. Yes, they break up the flow and design of the article. Et cetera. I agree with all the arguments against them. But I can live with it as a temporary measure. Two years seems a reasonable span to me... movies get the most viewing in the first few weeks and usually make it to the cable channels and video stores within one year. Highly anticipated books are generally read within a month of release by most fans. Thus, by the time two years have passed anyone who cares to will have had ample opportunity to already read/see the story. I'd even be fine with allowing series of movies, books, TV episodes, et cetera to leave the tags (or put them back on) pages where info more recent than two years are mentioned... thus the Luke Skywalker page could have had a spoiler about Vader being his father for two years after 'The Empire Strikes Back' came out.

So, for two years after new fiction is released Misplaced Pages looks like some kind of web-review site with spoilers and the like. Then they come out and we get to make it look like an encyclopedia. I can live with that. --CBD 13:37, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

"Yes, they look bad... which is why hiding them was the first thing I did when I found out about user .css pages" If I correctly understand your position, do you agree that optimally implemented hidable tags will eliminate all your objections to spoiler tagging? Milo 21:34, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

No, not at all. I can (and do) hide the tags just fine now. That doesn't stop people from contorting the article into illogical arrangements to isolate all the 'spoiler' information into a particular section or sections. Ultimately the spoiler tags have to go away. By their very existence they push for an article design which is more 'movie fan site' than 'encyclopedia'. I see no value in them whatsoever (if I didn't want to be spoiled about a book/movie/tv show the very last thing I would ever do is go read an encyclopedia article about it) but obviously some people do. Since the biggest objection is to spoiling things for the large number of people who haven't seen/read it yet when it first comes out I'd be ok with letting them have their spoiler tags for some reasonable period of time (and I think two years is plenty reasonable)... and then the tags go away and the articles start to be updated to look like encyclopedia entries. --CBD 23:24, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

wow, David Fuchs is right — you need to (somehow) read the archives. You seem to operating on way-old info or experience. Your issue was quietly consensed by both sides last June-ish. AFAIK, both sides agree with Phil Sandifer's original manifesto that article writing should not be compromised by specific considerations of where to place spoilers. In other words, write the best article first, art jury local consense where the spoilers are located, and only then hidden-tag them by actual location. (As an aside, hidden tags remove a motivation for contorting the article.)

Ok, now that we have that misunderstanding out of the way, I'll ask again about a proposed consensus compromise principle (irrespective of your current .css practice or whether you like or dislike spoiler tags). With the article properly written, do you agree that optimally implemented hidable tags will eliminate all your non-personal objections to spoiler tagging? Milo 00:21, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe that idea (i.e. 'write the best article with no thought to the placement of spoiler tags') is possible. To illustrate, any reasonable article on 'Darth Vader' should state in the lead that he was famously revealed to be Luke Skywalker's father. It is easily the most enduring cultural legacy of the character... to the point of having become a near universally known cliche. Yet, if the logic of 'spoiler warnings' holds we then either have to place a spoiler warning in the middle of the lead or move this highly significant fact about the character out... either of which results in an inferior article. Again, by their very existence spoiler warnings 'compromise article writing'. You say that there has been a consensus for over a year that article design should not be influenced by spoiler warning considerations, but the edit and talk page history of Darth Vader show that things were still being moved around in consideration of spoilers long after that. Indeed, the page is still organized on a philosophy of 'isolating spoilers' in a particular area. Many of the arguments against merging it with Anakin Skywalker (which has had similar fighting over spoiler inspired re-design) still come back to spoiler concerns. If you have spoiler warnings in an article, people are going to want to put anything and everything they consider a spoiler in that section and that section only. Seems plainly obvious and clearly borne out by the example. So again, no... I don't see how any system of 'hiding warnings', even doing so by default and making people 'opt in' to the warnings, can prevent redesign of the articles based on 'spoiler concerns'. Keeping spoiler warnings indefinitely is not an option IMO. --CBD 11:17, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

"You say that there has been a consensus for over a year" No, I didn't; you misread what I wrote. The current postings are dated September 2007 so my statement of "last June-ish" meant three-some months ago.

"I don't believe that idea (i.e. 'write the best article with no thought to the placement of spoiler tags') is possible." The question was not about your opinion of possibility; but, you have now made it clear that you refuse to answer the question as stated which was: With the article properly written, do you agree that optimally implemented hidable tags will eliminate all your non-personal objections to spoiler tagging? Milo 05:28, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

No, I answered that question. Repeatedly. You might as well be asking me, 'what would your view on spoiler warnings be once we make all humans omniscient?'. My answer is that it isn't going to happen. It's a practical impossibility. Sure, if spoiler warnings could be used without impacting the article writing at all then there would be no problem... and if all humans were omniscient then they'd know the plot already and warnings would be pointless. It's just the small issue that those things aren't possible. --CBD 21:24, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

If anything, I think you've argued persuasively against a two-year gap. Given that, as you point out, the window on books and movies is far shorter than that. (I point out that Spider-Man 3 did 25% of its worldwide business in three days, with diminishing returns after that. It was well past 50% of its world business by three weeks.) Television, obviously, has a similr window, due to a lack of reconsumption. Books probably have a slightly longer window. But if anything, this seems to me to be an argument for a window of no more than two weeks. And even this assumes a readerbase who does not quickly learn to just expect spoilers and avoid Misplaced Pages articles on subjects they care not to be informed about. Which seems to me, still, the preferred goal. Phil Sandifer 14:05, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Hm, I thought you were opposed to bright-line rules in gray areas? Given the many examples of ecological diversity† in published fiction-based works††, specific time frames you and others propose to mandate top-down are anti-ecological. (†N.B., to editors not familiar with this concept; Professor Phil knows that ecologies and the laws of ecology exist in non-natural environments. See Gregory Bateson's Steps to an Ecology of Mind.) (††For only one example mentioned at Talk:Spoiler, a foreign edition published over a decade later.)

In imposing arbitrary rules of conformity, one can not necessarily predict the specific negative consequences of reducing diversity, but generally such excess conformity reduces survivability of the conformed venue in unexpected ways. By exact analogy, growing mono-genetic hybrid grain crops is not practical without pesticides. Yet, who would have predicted that decades later farmers would be getting Parkinson's Disease from pesticide contaminated well water, due to pesticide runoff into the water table? Without the farmer, the hybrid crop does not survive. And, the chain of problems never ends, because excess conformity fundamentally violates a law of ecology.

No, I don't know what bad thing might happen at Misplaced Pages by imposing anti-diversity spoiler tag time-limit rules top down, as opposed to allowing the local consensus art jury to diversely do this bottom up. The opera editors don't want any, and that's ok with me. Bionicle editors apparently do want them, so that's also ok with me.

I do know that wise, well-educated people don't tempt fate by unnecessarily violating known natural laws – like, say, keeping pet tigers or dinosaurs in the back yard using impenetrable, electrified fences. But 'noug said. Unlike you, I don't want to spoil the Jurassic Park trilogy for those teens who haven't seen the greatest family movie of narrative suspense ever made. (hehe, ok, pile on now) Milo 21:34, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I argued that most people will experience the new fiction shortly after its release. Most. Not all. A minority, but still sizable, percentage will wait and do so later. I, for instance, am waiting for Spider-Man 3 to come out on the cable/satelite channels or DVD. Haven't seen it yet. Haven't read the Misplaced Pages article on it either... because I don't want to be 'spoiled' and I know that NO system of 'spoiler warnings' can entirely prevent that. If you don't want to know... don't read the article. Seems obvious to me. Others disagree and think we should try to separate out 'spoiler' and 'non spoiler' information. Hence we have a big mess. But there is no point to this fight. Tons of stuff in Misplaced Pages doesn't begin to look like a halfway decent article until it has a few years worth of updates to it anyway. Let them have the spoiler tags for two years. Yes, it's a somewhat arbitrary dividing line. Yes, there will still be the occasional 'new fan' who is 'spoiled' on something that came out 'two and a half years' ago (or ten years before they were born) and which they haven't seen yet... but attempting to prevent any possibility of 'spoiling' leads to the kind of nonsense where we had spoiler warnings on centuries old nursery tales. Two years is plenty for anyone who is a 'big fan' who really really wants to see it to have done so. It is enough time that newspapers and television shows and that guy on the street have been openly talking about and referencing the 'spoiler' information for months... and there is probably at least one parody movie out by then. It's enough time for the books to have made their way to the library and into paperback editions, the movies to be released on cable/dvd, and the television shows to have been shown on re-runs and/or be released on dvd... all of them will have gone through and finished their 'second round' of marketing by two years. I say two years because the arguments for keeping them after that point become vanishingly small... basically just the possibility of some 'new fan' not realizing that people openly talk about things which have been around for a few years. Which, frankly, isn't very plausible as (for instance) I've heard a fair bit about Spider-Man 3 just riding the elevator at work. We all know that the 'secrecy' around these things has a 'shelf life'... and two years is past any reasonable expiry criteria that might be cited. Up 'til then each group can decide what spoiler warnings they want (or not), but after two years they can be removed. --CBD 23:24, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree with this suggestion to allow unfettered use of spoiler tags for two years after the release of a work. It's true that we have a long time to get things right, but there's no reason to intentionally allow our articles to suffer for two years. The original suggestion, a current fiction tag for two years, already seemed excessive to me. I wold go along with a current fiction tag for a short period of time (and that's why I created the current fiction template in the first place). We still have very few examples of places where spoiler tags are justifiable, which makes it hard to see why they need to be liberally allowed on a large number of articles. — Carl (CBM · talk) 12:28, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Plot doesn't necessarily indicate a spoiler.

When you ask a friend "What's this movie about?" they usually tell you the plot, without giving away the important and surprising aspects of the story.

This is how I expected plot summaries on wikipedia to be - unless otherwise indicated (with a spoiler alert), plot summaries would not give away important or surprising aspects of a story. However, I guess I was wrong, judging from all this - it seems most people see "plot" as being synonymous with "spoiler". I can't be the only person who finds this false.

I am quite distressed, since I decided to look up a book that I've been wanting to read for ages, and decided to read the plot summary since there was no spoiler sign. Bad idea. I was shocked to find that it described a vital plot twist. Now the story that I've been waiting years to read has been spoiled for me. If you are wondering, it is Sati, by Christopher Pike.

It seems that other people have been editing the page to include the obvously needed spoiler tag, but they keep getting removed and this page is cited as the reason for removal. I highly object to this. When I see a heading indicating "Plot", I don't think that it's a spoiler unless it's marked as such. Rediahs 16:30, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I would direct you to the lengthy discussion on this point in the archives. I don't think anything else needs to be added. David Fuchs 17:19, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

It has always been the stated aim of the anti-spoiler people to 'burn' those who expect spoilers, until they learn otherwise. They see you as stupid and at least some of them consider you an aesthetic pervert for liking narrative suspense.--Nydas 17:47, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

There's a lesson in this: if you don't want to find out the plot of a book, don't read the plot section of its Misplaced Pages entry. --Mark H Wilkinson 17:55, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

In other words Don't use Misplaced Pages .Garda40 18:22, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Nydas, Phil wrote that email. I didn't. I have not been subscribed to the Misplaced Pages mailing lists for some time (I did when I was trying to resolve a dispute regarding the Hebrew Wiki) and in any case never noticed anything about spoilers. In any case, I am not trying to 'burn' Rediahs, only prevent pointless iterations of the same arguments over and over again. That's the point of archives, history, whatever. David Fuchs 18:32, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I suggest you resist the urge to prevent discussion.--Nydas 21:39, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. I don't use Misplaced Pages if I don't want to learn something. I use Misplaced Pages a lot. --Mark H Wilkinson 18:46, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I'll just sidestep Mark's snide implication that those who don't want spoilers are uninformed, and answer Garda40 on a personal level: I do a lot of research on movies for various reasons, and no, now that I know Misplaced Pages actively discourages the use of spoiler tags, I won't use it for research anymore. There's no reason to use Misplaced Pages if the content can include spoilers but readers get no warning of this. As for what I was hoping to accomplish, well, it's pretty obvious most here don't want to accomplish anything. The anti-tag people are too busy being smugly self-righteous, and the pro-tag people keep thinking life should be fair. Clockster 13:22, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Previously, Clockster wrote: "almost every film site I go to -- blogs, reviews, forums, TCM, Usenet, etc. -- uses some kind of spoiler notice, even if it's a cursory notice somewhere in the FAQ." If "a cursory notice" is sufficient to permit you to use a site for research, Misplaced Pages already has it. Many of the pro-warning crowd say this isn't good enough, even though apparently some of the other sites you refer to employ a similar warning technique.

You could really move the debate forward by surveying some of those other film sites and reporting back how they handle spoilers. Is it just a general notice on the site, or does it appear on every page? Is it at the top of the page, or embedded in the middle of the text? Marc Shepherd 15:13, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I've surveyed six. Here's what I have:

1. IMDb: User-submitted synopses and external reviews which have spoilers. I was unable to find their policy on spoilers, but I don't have an account there so I may not be able to reach their policy page. I listed it here though because the IMDb is notorious for spoilers, and there are scripts out there you can download and use to block spoilers.

2. The rec.arts.movies.past-films FAQ (at http://www.faqs.org/faqs/movies/faq/past-films/): SPOILER should be used in the subject, header, or text to indicate a spoiler. I can testify to this; I've been a member there for over a decade and have been chewed out a few times during heated discussion for not labeling an item as a spoiler.

3. allmovie.com: Spoilers in plot synopses, no policy listed. I've never been to allmovies before, though, so someone more familiar with allmovies may have different info.

4. Netflix: No spoilers. Per their guidelines: "Don't spoil a plot by giving away endings or key plot developments."

5. Amazon: No spoilers. Per their guidelines: "No spoilers! Please don't reveal crucial plot elements."

6. TCMdb: I was unable to find their policy and have emailed them. However, it appears they have a segment called Brief Synopsis, with no spoilers, and later a Full Synopsis, which is a detailed account of the whole movie, spoilers and all. You have to click on a link to get the Full Synopsis, which I believe serves as their warning. As I said, I have emailed them to clarify.

Of the six listed, 3 clearly have a no spoiler policy and 1 has spoilers "hidden" behind a link. Two have spoilers without any kind of warning: the IMDb and allmovies. Clockster 14:06, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Of course, Usenet is a hard case to gouge. People can post anything, and the for the most part the worst thing that'll happen is others will killfile those who they don't like the posts of. FAQs for Usenet, in a way, are kind of like WP policies - they reflect consensus of the regulars who post there. Unlike with the websites mentioned, once it's there, there's no real way to take it down for the most part -- all this means is that, regardless of what people want, people CAN easily violate it without any true repercussions. Just for the record. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 14:24, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

In the first place, I want to thank Clockster. I've suggested numerous times that real data would be helpful, and he's the first person who actually went out and did something about it.

I think it's notable that, of the 3 sites that "clearly have a no spoiler policy," two are sites that are mainly in business to sell or rent DVDs. Of the 6 sites listed, they are perhaps the two that are least similar in their aims to Misplaced Pages.

Of the 3 that are most similar in their aims to Misplaced Pages, at least 2 "have spoilers without any kind of warning." I visited TCMdb, and didn't see how their spoilers are "hidden behind a link." For example, here are their pages for Casablanca and Psycho. It's true that there's a "brief synopsis," followed by a full synopsis further down on the page, but I couldn't see how the spoilers are "hidden behind a link." Marc Shepherd 14:20, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

It's hard to tell by the nick, but I'm a she. Anyhow, I confess the TCMdb threw me as I'm not familiar with the new (to me) layout. You're exactly right, you don't have to click the link on the left menu to get to the Full Synopsis section, it's on the front page of a movie entry. I think we can conclude 3 of the sites have prominent spoilers with no warnings: IMDb, allmovie, and TCMdb. The other 3 have definite no spoiler policies: Usenet, Amazon, and Netflix. It's pretty clear where the dividing line is between the two types of sites. The 3 databases with no spoiler tags (IMdb, allmovie, and TCMdb) are much more similar to Misplaced Pages than the other sites. Clockster 14:12, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I looked and it seems to me that IMDB has spoiler warnings (,), and allmovies.com seems to be some sort of domain parking site, so it's not really relevant. Anyway, even if majority sites wouldn't have spoiler warnings, I don't see how this is relevant. Why not take the majority of users instead of majority of website owners? If people want them, let's have them. Samohyl Jan 07:22, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I apologize, the site is allmovie.com - no "s". I have changed it in my entries above to avoid confusion for anyone who comes across this at a later date. As for the IMDb, did you find a definitive spoiler policy? I was unable to, and since the IMDb is user-generated content I suspect there's no way to accurately enforce spoiler tags. While the "Plot Synopsis" section automatically says "warning! may contain spoilers", I found no other examples of a spoiler tag. Spoilers can appear on the trivia section, user comments, goofs, memorable quotes, and probably other sections. An actual spoiler policy from IMDb would be nice to know. (I'm still waiting on the TDMdb to answer my inquiry.)

Don't get me wrong, I want spoiler tags. However, in reviewing other websites I see that many don't have spoiler tags, and those that do have spoiler tags don't enforce their proper use. I'm speaking only about films here; I haven't looked into any aspects of spoilers for books, tv shows, and other situations. Clockster 18:27, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

IMDb has a written spoiler policy. Spoilers are limited to appear only in the "full synopsis" section, which is on a separate page with a spoiler warning headline. All links to that page also include a spoiler warning as part of the link text. Spoilers are discouraged to be added outside of the synopsis page, especially in the shorter plot outline sections, and if spoilers are added else such as the "Goofs" section or the message boards, IMDb requires the use of a spoiler warning, either a template they provide, or the word SPOILER: preceding the spoiler content. You can find this information by searching their help system for the word "spoiler" and also in their submission guide on the page for editing the plot synopsis. --Parsifal _Hello 19:10, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad you found the policy, as it certainly clarifies things. It can definitely be added to the tally of sites that require spoiler tags. Since then I've checked out a few more sites:

1. Yahoo has no spoiler policy and users have complained about spoilers being posted by Yahoo.

2. movies.com (which appears to be owned by Buena Vista) has articles with spoilers but they're marked as such . The same goes for the forums .

3. AOL's movie site has a blog at cinematical.com which labels spoilers in its articles . As for their movie boards, I wasn't able to find any policy about spoilers but their TV boards have specific spoiler forums which are clearly labeled .

4. MSN Movie Guide has synopses with spoilers (example here ) but their content is almost exactly the same as allmovie, and MSN indicates all synopses are from the "All Movie Guide". I think MSN and allmovie can be counted as the same thing and not two separate entities.

So this means of the 10 sites I looked at, allmovie/MSN, Yahoo and TCMdb have spoilers in their descriptions without any kind of warning, tag, or click-through. Yahoo has user complaints about their no-spoiler-tag policy. The other 6 sites -- IMDb, Netflix, Amazon, AOL, movies.com, and Usenet -- have specific spoiler guidelines. I know someone mentioned that Usenet doesn't count for anything, but even dismissing Usenet that still means most major sites use spoiler notifications.

I believe Marc and I were far too hasty in concluding that no spoiler tags is the norm. If others have movie sites I didn't include, or corrections, please contribute. Clockster 07:38, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

We are making considerable progress here, although I think the analysis calls for some refinement. Of the 10 sites you consulted, several are "fan forums" or sites where most of the coverage appears to be very recent movies. A couple of others (Amazon, Netflix) are in existence primarily to make sales. Their similarity to Misplaced Pages is tenuous, at best. Where the site is a general reference work covering movies of all periods, not a fan forum, and not a DVD vendor, the percentage including spoiler tags goes way down.

It's also notable that, where the warnings are present, they seem to be often placed on the entire page/post in question, a solution the "pro-tag" faction has consistently rejected as inadequate. Marc Shepherd 13:05, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

There's no film or movie site that I'm aware of that's similar to Misplaced Pages, so a direct comparison won't be possible. Also, most sites are either commercial in nature or contain user-generated content or both. Even the IMDb is owned by Amazon, and has links to Amazon products on many (or all) the pages. If we were to dismiss all commercial and fan forum sites, of the 10 I looked in to, that leaves only allmovie/MSN and maybe AOL's blog at cinematical.com. I'm not saying my survey is completely comprehensive, but I do believe these are the best examples we're going to get. Clockster 23:54, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is arguably sui generis, but one can certainly identify other sites with similar aims — those that are primarily intended for information (rather than sales), edited, comprehensive, broad in coverage, and encyclopedic in tone. Among the movie sites you surveyed, allmovie/MSN seems to come closest. IMDB is a hybrid, in that there is a reference section, but user comments are also permitted, and there seems to be a different spoiler policy for the comments than for the main database.

Of course, Misplaced Pages isn't only a movie site, so a broader version of this study would look at sites dedicated to other genres. While Misplaced Pages is the only site that covers such a wide range of subjects, there are plenty of respected reference sites on the Internet that have the tone and comprehensiveness of an encyclopedia, although with a more limited scope. Marc Shepherd 12:42, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, maybe they are, but we don't know about them, because no one uses them, because they contain spoilers without warnings. :) Seriously, I don't believe there is some large specialized reference site dedicated to literary works, for example. To amass a critical amount of information requires lot of people, and it would probably be well known. IMDB itself has noncommercial origin in USENET database, iirc. Samohyl Jan 18:23, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Rediah's view

I've read parts of the archived discussion and I think I understand now where people are coming from. However, I must disagree on quite a few grounds: - I've been told that I'm "stupid" for looking at a wikipedia article of a work that I don't want to be spoiled, because I shouldn't be looking at it if I don't want it to be spoiled. That's a circular argument. We could easily fix this by adding spoiler tags. Then the article would be safe to look at. Believe it or not, there is other content in a wikipedia article than spoilers. - I've been told that I shouldn't be looking at a plot summary if I don't want the plot given away. I agree completely, except that there is a difference between plot and story. As I mentioned earlier, if I ask a friend what a movie is about, they typically don't include spoilers. It is common courtesy in our culture to mention the fact that what is upcoming might include spoilers. I have legitimate reasons for wanting to read the article, and not wanting spoilers in my face: - I might want to read about it to find out if it sounds interesting to me. - I want to know information such as the author, actors, etc - As for the plot sumamry and not wanting spoilers, I probably want to know how the movie/book begins - the introductory premise, and a vague explanation of how it resolves. However, I don't want details about certain large events such as a chacter dying or something. I find the indication that users who read wikipedia articles of works they do not want spoiled are stupid to be incredibly closed-minded and offensive. I want to read the article; however, I do not want it spoiled. This is normal in our culture. Do you understand this? As for users who think that if we learn our lesson by being shocked by the spoiler in one plot summary we won't do it again, of course, I won't do it again. However, it narrows the usage of the article. It makes it accessible to less people. And it makes it unusable to those who do not want it spoiled. And users who do not want it spoiled have valid reasons for wanting to read it, as I explained above. Don't say we're stupid. Isn't it a BAD thing to make an article available to less people? -- Rediahs 22:00, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I want to read the article; however, I do not want it spoiled. This is normal in our culture. Given how strongly you feel about it, would you be willing to do a little research? Do a survey, and take note of where "in our culture" spoiler warnings typically are found, and where they are not. For a change, we would have some real data that might help inform where those warnings belong in Misplaced Pages. Marc Shepherd 22:12, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Adding spoiler warnings removes nothing. It doesn't harm the article. It's a courtesy. It works well. It's considered polite. I understand this is an encyclopedia, but we've never had an encyclopedia quite like this before. Can't our wikipedia be polite? -- Rediahs 22:40, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

On the contrary. It causes information to be 'shuffled' between the tags. It's ugly. It potentially violates WP:NPOV. And wouldn't it be polite to say that Irrumation has a drawing of a sex act (I've never even heard of the word, so following a link to it I'd have no idea)? Or how about a warning that something might be harmful if tried/consumed? Yet we don't have THOSE warnings. But this is all rehash of the arguments. Read the archives. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 22:55, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

"It's ugly." Not if the tags are hidden by default. Milo 07:52, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

It causes information to be 'shuffled' between the tags. That could be an effect, but in what way is that a problem, as long as the resulting text is well-written and according to policy?

It's ugly. One might consider that beauty (or its opposite) is in the eye of the beholder. For example, I find spoiler notices pleasing if they are well-done and well-placed.

It potentially violates WP:NPOV. That may be so. But there is no policy against "potential" violations. If in a particular situation, a spoiler notice violates NPOV, that should be addressed and fixed, in that particular article where it happened. --Parsifal _Hello 23:20, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

But then, why do you resist doing the research I suggested? If it's "a courtesy" and is "considered polite," presumably you can find other sources that provide a similar courtesy. We might learn something by observing what they did, and the way they did it. Once we've seen what kind of works receive spoiler warnings in other sources, and the wording/placement of those warnings, we'd have some hard data to go by, instead of just dueling personal opinions. Marc Shepherd 23:42, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Come on, Marc! It's already been discussed at length that (a) most websites (of which Misplaced Pages is one, as well as being an encyclopedia) have some sort of spoiler warning for the sake of courtesy, (b) that authors (such as JK Rowling) have denounced spoilers as rude, and that (c) newspapers routinely avoid including spoilers in articles or reviews about a book/film/etc. It's pretty clear that spoilers are considered rude and that some sort of notice would be considered polite when they are to be included. That it is a courtesy is pretty much beyond question. The issue is whether or not it is a courtesy we wish to extend to the members of the Misplaced Pages conclusion. And while that may come across as a loaded question, I do not see it as such. It seems perfectly reasonable to me to debate the answer. I would just appreciate if the debate were as reasonable as the question. ; ) Postmodern Beatnik 15:36, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Sure, there's widespread understanding that many websites—I don't know about most—employ some sort of warning. But what sort? Misplaced Pages already has a site-wide disclaimer, as do some other sites, but many on the pro-tag side don't think that's good enough. Some sites put a warning at the top of any page that contains spoilers, but many on the pro-tag side don't think that's good enough.

Some of the analogies don't really wash. J. K. Rowling complained about sites that gave away the plot of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows before the book was released. She is not complaining about those sites now. Just visit any HP fansite to see how they handle the earlier books. Newspaper reviews don't hide spoilers behind a warning; they just don't include them. But that rule is generally limited only to very new works. A typical review of the third Spiderman film would refer to events in the two earlier films without any kind of warning.

So I think there is some value to surveying what other reputable sources actually do and how they do it. Not that this data would determine the answer, but it would inform the debate with hard facts. Marc Shepherd 17:25, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Visit any HP fansite. Misplaced Pages shouldn't copy fansites, but the anti-spoiler people seem to view our fiction articles as an extension of them.--Nydas 07:09, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

And it isn't copying them, nor am I suggesting it should. I was simply replying to an earlier post that used J. K. Rowling as a purported authority on spoiler warnings (which she isn't).

As for the claim that the anti-spoiler people "seem to view our articles as an extension of" fansites, I am utterly baffled as to where you get that. But as I've said dozens of times, the way to prove (or disprove) this is with evidence, and you haven't offered any. Marc Shepherd 10:47, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

There's Phil Sandifer's belief that certain articles are 'fans-only'. Early on in the debate, Memory Alpha was cited as an example of what to aim for. Doctor Who, Final Fantasy and other franchise fiction is regarded as representative and typical, even though most of our fiction articles are about standalone works.--Nydas 14:46, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

The people who are opposed to warnings aren't a uniform bunch who have identical views. Phil Sandifer saying that doesn't mean that everyone would agree. Anyhow, he apparently said that "certain articles" are 'fans-only', not that all of them are. (I think it's true that some articles, by their nature, are so detailed and specialized that only fans of the subject matter are likely to care about them. This is neither a pro-warning nor an anti-warning observation, and should not figure in the guideline.) Marc Shepherd 15:01, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

"people who are opposed to warnings aren't a uniform bunch who have identical views." Yes and no. Mostly anti-taggers are hierarchists, but not fascists who must repeat exactly what the cult leader says. Hierarchists and their fellow travelers† are typically free to criticize the means but not the goals of the prevailing revolutionary theory (including USA's). As with all hierarchies, outside the ruling elite core there are expanding as fading social connection rings, which I visualize like Newton's rings . These rings including secondary gainers (classically wives and crony profiteers), enforcers (classically paid workers), illusioned intellectuals (classically religious, academic, or self-educated idealists; more recently including junk scientists), and dupes† (classically 'Youth for...'). Feel free to suggest categories I've missed. (†Generically borrowed from J.E. Hoover's political classification scheme #4 and #5, without implying communism.)

"Phil Sandifer saying that doesn't mean that everyone would agree." If you think that, (consider the absolutes here softened), you don't understand the clique hierarchy or who they salute. Phil is the revolutionary cell theorist behind the Spoiler Tag Coup of May 2007. Anyone who intends to keep their place in that hierarchy, can't or at least won't, disagree with Phil's announced goals, or his vague fears and unprovable axiomatic beliefs over which the hidable tag compromise is currently stalled. Somewhat conversely, anyone who disagrees with his announced goals probably never was a core hierarchist — though a hierarchy schism ("Meet the new boss, same as the old boss") has precedent at Misplaced Pages.

Early on, I decided Phil was philosophically correct about the article writing standards. While a pro-tagger I openly supported him in that regard, but I noticed that he just could not be satisfied with that significant and reasonable achievement.

It took me months to determine that Phil had indirectly incorporated an anti-youth culture agenda (a.k.a., Tony's "internet culture") into the revolutionary theory of the Spoiler Tag Coup. The clique's implementation of this agenda is to passively-agressively discourage, or actively drive away this class of young persons from either editing or reading Misplaced Pages's fiction articles — via inflicting spoiler disappointments on them whenever possible, and chilling editors who try to add new spoiler tags.

The core and outer hierarchy amplifies and enforces this youth culture exclusion philosophy with every edit they make. Therefore, it is this discriminatory philosophy itself which needs to be vetted, challenged, and disconsensed, because Phil's rejection of the hidable tag proposal has proved that such a philosophy inherently prevents compromise.

Said more simply, the anti-tagging position is just a fig leaf for a selective anti-young-people philosophy. Milo 07:52, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

First off, WP:CIVIL. You're REALLY treading the line there. Secondly, 'anti-young'? How young is young? I'm not 30 yet, that's still pretty young to a lot of people. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 11:04, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

"'anti-young'? How young is young?" Teen-agers probably, but at least young enough to be a current or former l33t-speaker is my current estimate. l33t-writing "SP01L3RZ!!!" is the kind of thing that sets many English teachers like Phil on edge. I understand his attitude, and being a writer of formal English as needed, I even have some sympathy for it. However, I happen to believe in the power of education more than he seems to, like friendly Wikiguide instruction on why l33t isn't appropriate except for the l33t article, and how to identify spoilers and tag them properly to avoid offending good article writing. One does not set a good teaching example by trying to suppress and exclude the very generation who will take over most editing at Misplaced Pages in the next 10 years.

"WP:CIVIL. You're REALLY treading the line there." You are 100% wrong. I've reread my post as well as WP:Civil, and I wrote not a word of incivility. Your disagreement with, or dislike for, my political analysis which tells truth to power, is not an issue of incivility.

Aside from being completely wrong (and unfair), think clearly about the political effect of your accusation — you are supporting the perceived accuracy of my analysis by giving the appearance of trying to chill me for anti-tag political gain. Milo 21:51, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh my fucking god? Poltical effect? What the hell kind of drugs are you on? (and yes, I know that's uncivil, but my god, it's like talking to a robot.) ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 22:24, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry you're upset, that certainly wasn't my desired outcome. WP:Civil suggests that I should delay any specific response. Milo 23:06, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

There is no cabal!! Really!! Kuronue | Talk 18:17, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. The anti-spoiler-tag hierarchy clique is not operating in secret, nor have they displayed the shrewd politics of a classic secret society. Word of the cliqueocracy is getting around. In the last few days I found an unrelated discussion about another Misplaced Pages hierarchy "clique", using that term.

If Misplaced Pages has a hierarchy boss system, or a cliqueocracy, and the Wikiguides say if you want to edit here you have to obey the boss or the clique, at least what you see is what you get. But I don't like it when saying and doing don't come together, and seeing good editors being pushed around in violation of falsely-claimed or corrupted due process.

Suppressing a large class of editors and readers has consequences. Until the May 2007 Spoiler Tag Coup made me wonder what was really going on here, I'd never heard of the critic sites, Misplaced Pages Review, Wikitruth, Misplaced Pages Watch, maybe others, nor had I any previous interest. I think the tabloid personal criticisms of several famous Wikipedians there tend to be petty and unfair. On the other hand, the recent revelations of alleged massive abuse of oversighting, and alleged failure of Arbcom to correct those abuses struck me as incredibly important to limiting formal corruption at Misplaced Pages. Milo 21:51, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps we should have some kind of Godwinization principle on this talk page. If someone accuses someone else of being a member of a gang, clique, cabal or other group intent on imposing their will against consensus, all useful discussion on the thread can be considered to be over and we can safely archive it. --Tony Sidaway 20:38, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I wrote the above responses before I saw your post after an edit conflict.

Hehe, clever. I would not mind if you would unilaterally apply such a principle to yourself and gracefully depart. :) Milo 21:51, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Tony's view

The plot summary in an encyclopedia must discuss all significant elements of the plot. That is what it is there for. A plot summary that omits significant elements is not potentially but actively in breach of the neutral point of view policy, assuming that the plot is ata all significant (which it usually is--I can't think of an exception off-hand. Perhaps some articles about specific soap opera episodes, otherwise unimportant, where something significant happened to a member of the case or production team).

So we have a case where every plot summary, synopsis or other plot-related section, including every article about a fictional character and object, must describe everything worth knowing about the item in question. Misplaced Pages must, by its very mission, become a neutral purveyor of all relevant information.

Some people feel betrayed if they obtain access to information about a work of fiction through a route other than sitting down and reading a book or watching a television program or film. Their feelings, which I'm sure are deeply felt and genuine, are not compatible with Misplaced Pages's mission. It would be nice to try to accommodate those people's feelings into our mission if at all possible.

What to do? Until mid-May, we had sporadically sprinkled spoiler warnings on some 45,000 articles. And we had put home-made warnings on perhaps 1,000 others (the latter is my estimate because I found and removed most of them in June/July). The obvious problem with this is that, in a wiki of some 2,000,000 articles, Misplaced Pages must have many more than 45,000 articles about fictional subjects. Even when we had that many spoiler tags, the odds were that when you visited an article about a fictional subject at random you would not see a single spoiler tag. And yet every single article about a fictional subject must, perforce, be a revelation to the reader who visits it in ignorance. And if "significant new information about a fictional subject" is not a good candidate definition of the word "spoiler", I don't know what is.

So it's actually a pretty difficult decision to make, because the obvious, pragmatic solution has been tried and failed, only resulting in useless clutter. But although it's a difficult decision, it's an unavoidable one: we have to be more pro-active about spoiler tags: each time somebody adds one, they should be able, at least in principle, to explain why it's necessary. And Misplaced Pages being consensus-based, they should be able to demonstrate consensus for that tag. And conversely, we shouldn't be afraid to remove a spoiler (whether tagged or not) that isn't necessary. Our current guideline allows both of those options. We don't tag spoilers unnecessarily and we don't include information that, while it's trivial in the current context, may not be what the reader is expecting. If we have an article about buckets, it would be unnecessary, and really rather silly, to include in that article some information to the effect that the climax of a certain Harry Potter novel involved creative use of a bucket, ten inches of post office string, and a stick of sealing wax.

And that isn't a new thing. That's the way Misplaced Pages works. Or at least, it's how Misplaced Pages is supposed to work. You can't just stick something into an article without consensus.

But that being so, what am I doing to improve Misplaced Pages? Chopping out tags that some people find useful? Not a bit of it. Mostly I remove redundant tags from sections with names like "Story", "Plot" or "Synopsis". As I've stated above, it's not acceptable in an encyclopedia to write about such matters without covering what most reasonable people would consider spoilers. But that's not all I do. I change the names of sections, or add section names where they do not already exist, so that the reader will not be misled. Don't misunderstand me: I don't create corraled areas of spoiling content. Rather, I create structure in the article that shows the casual reader that this is an encyclopedia and not a fan site, that its mission is to inform and not to conceal. I am performing an essential function in the construction of an encyclopedia: making an infrastructure that permits all significant elements of a subject to be covered, and removing elements that make such coverage difficult to provide in an integrated manner. We shouldn't be dodging in and ou of "spoiler" areas dictated arbitrarily by random editors. Rather we should always feel free to refactor any article to improve the delivery of information. --Tony Sidaway 01:48, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I doubt your claim that Misplaced Pages must have 'many more' than 45,000 fiction articles is correct. Your editing patterns trick you into thinking that the situation with Doctor Who, Star Wars, etc is 'typical'. How many fictional franchises have more than 50 distinct articles? Not many.--Nydas 12:20, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

If I'm reading this right, there are 28,795 articles with a WP:Film banner, and 18,009 with a WP:CVG banner. Granted not all of these are fictional topics, but that doesn't even get into books, fairy tales, plays, songs, and other things that often had the warnings attached to them. And furthermore, even at the time, none of the Final Fantasy articles or the opera articles had them, by consensus of their respective projects. Final Fantasy VII was a featured article before it happened, and the warnings were kept off it. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 12:56, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

If a fair quantity of films are either non-fictional or are stubs too short to contain spoilers, and many (probably most) video games don't have plots, then the 'many more' claim is without merit.--Nydas 16:52, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Here's another anecdote. Long ago, editors on WikiProject Opera decided that spoiler tags were never appropriate on opera articles. New editors would come along and add the tags, and veterans would remove them. I cannot think of a principled reason why opera articles omitted spoiler tags, when they were present on fairy tales like Three little pigs. It was simply a case of one group of editors reaching a decision that was the opposite of what other editors preferred. There are hundreds of opera articles on Misplaced Pages.

So I agree with Tony that the former practice was highly inconsistent. When reading about fictional subjects, there was no real rhyme or reason as to whether you would encounter a spoiler tag or not. Marc Shepherd 13:04, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Instead of resorting to the fairy tale strawman, what about the novel mentioned in the beginning of this section? Is it 'highly inconsistent' to have spoiler warnings on novels but not on operas?--Nydas 16:52, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Three little pigs isn't a strawman, because it had a spoiler warning for a while, and there were editors who argued quite strenuously that it was appropriate. Yes, you could argue that it is inconsistent to have spoiler warnings on novels, but not on operas. There are also differences between the two, which some editors find significant. Marc Shepherd 17:03, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Another way to look at it... the previous state of 45,000 fiction articles with warnings, and a somewhat unknown number without _already_ constituted a compromise between the pro-warnings group and the anti-warning group. Granted, a sloppy one that probably could have used some refinement and consistency applied to it, but one that nevertheless was apparently quite tolerable for most people.

Let's say we reach a valid compromise on where spoiler warnings are appropriate, and it leaves, let's say, 1000 warnings up. (This is wildly optomistic, considering how few warnings are getting through the spoiler patrol). What's to stop, a few months down the road, the vehement anti-spoiler side demanding yet another compromise, permitting even _fewer_ spoilers? Because right now it seems, at least in my view, the pro-spoiler people have been doing most of the giving in the give and take of compromise. So, since the question's been asked about what concrete changes the pro-spoiler side wants to make that they think can get consensus, let me turn it around. For those who are anti-spoiler, what compromises are you WILLING to make? Hopefully something beyond simply "we can allow them if they demonstrate consensus", which, again, can't happen so long as there are even a small number of determined anti-spoiler people digging in and deciding in every case that comes up their answer is 'no' (thus making consensus impossible to get). Because if you _can't_ offer compromises, then I see no point in trying to either, and might as well revert my policy from one of compromise to being extremely pro-warning, because it's more likely to get me action in the direction I want.

As to your example on what WP:Opera did... I've actually considered that this might be a good idea, as policy. Let individual projects determine for themselves what their spoiler policy is. Different projects will decide different things, but different pages within their project will hopefully be consistent, and at least it would seem to reflect a better consensus, and would address certain things like "does this count as too old to need a spoiler warning" (which might for a comic be a few months, and a book a few years) in the other bright-line policies. Of course, the major problem here would be in handling overlap of projects. Wandering Ghost 14:02, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, as you know, I'm fairly anti-warning, but I proposed that spoiler tags should be routinely employed on all articles concerning fictional subjects, where the work in question is fairly new. I suggested two years as a good dividing line between "new" and "old", but I wouldn't be unhappy with three or five. In my experience, the vast majority of the complaints affect works that are new. This would therefore give the pro-warning side a good deal of what they want, and would lead to spoiler tags on thousands of articles. Whether you like this compromise or not, you can't say that the anti-warning side is unwilling to compromise.

I am also fine with the idea of allowing each project to customize the guideline. This is how Misplaced Pages works. But you get the best results when there is a higher-level guideline to provide the "guard rails." A project team can decide how the guideline applies to their specific situation, but can't ignore the guideline or make decisions that lead to wildly inconsistent results). Marc Shepherd 14:25, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

The two-year compromise you propose is actually what I implemented on the Doctor Who episode articles. I went through and removed all spoiler tags for older episodes, and retained the newer ones, adopting May, 2005 as my cut-off point. However when someone else removed the remaining spoiler tags they were not restored, and new articles about Doctor Who episodes soon ceased to carry spoiler tags. So the compromise I implemented proved to be too far over to the "include tags" side to survive for more than a few weeks. --Tony Sidaway 15:44, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

And did you tell anyone about your compromise? If you didn't, then people just behaved according to current guideline, so there is no proof how much of them disagreed with it. Samohyl Jan 19:09, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

You can see that I commented several times on the relevant WikiProject talk page as I progressed through the task, particularly here, where I had covered everything from William Hartnell to Peter Davison (1963-1984), and here where I announced that I had completed all removals up to The Empty Child, which was broadcast by the BBC on 21 May, 2005. On the last comment I said "Comments and edits welcome, please take the trouble to examine and revert if you think I've gone too far." As you can see from this revision of the talk page over three weeks later, there do not seem to have been any further comments on the matter. --Tony Sidaway 19:31, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Where did this two year figure come from? Even with more popular media, such as movies, numerous people will watch movies that are over two years old for the first time, as most people aren't avid movie watchers. When you take less popular media, such as books, then you have books that go unread by people for decades or even centuries. Even with just more recent books, far too many are published for any except the biggest bookworm to keep up on and read all within two years. This two years figure seems arbitrary and doesn't comply with the period of time most people would be exposed to media that they wouldn't want to be spoiled about.

Anyone proposing numerical figures should specify the philosophical underpinning for that decision. I don't think age of the work should be a factor at all. Ultimately, the reason for spoiler warnings to exist is because people who want to enjoy a work of fiction, that haven't read it, don't want to have their experienced ruined.

So what factor(s) that are universal to the populous regarding a given type of work would make it so that someone either a) already knows the spoilers and/or b) isn't interested in the type of work by the time they'd be of an age where they'd be checking Misplaced Pages for these kinds of summaries? I can only think of two things off the top of my head: highly ubiquitous works told to kids (e.g. three little pigs) and works targeted towards a much younger audience, causing them to lose interest in it. The former is the only one I can see real validity in, because so many people know it that it's pointless, but then again, this relies on cultural assumptions regarding the stories so it's not universal. The latter varies--many works of fiction for kids, especially movies, are still interesting for adults--consider many Disney films. Shrek, which is both a fairy tale and a work for kids is a good example of something adults wouldn't want spoiled. I'm for making compromises, but I don't know of one that really has an objective basis, yet.

That said, I can't really think of much in terms of objective reasons to not include spoilers. While an article should certainly explain all significant plot elements, there is no reason why an encyclopedic article couldn't include markers for the spoiling parts. Some people have poo-pooed a technical measure, but I really think it would be useful for this and other purposes. A general mechanism for having tags that you can turn completely on/off for all articles would be quite useful. Hell, you wouldn't even need tags per se, you could have it "black out" the spoiling parts until something to reveal them is clicked. It wouldn't be preferable, but a CSS hack could even be made that implements enabling/disabling this "blacking out" mechanism Regarding the consensus thing: keep in mind that the vocal/energetic minority can easily win out over a less energtic/vigilant majority, forming a faux consensus. -Nathan J. Yoder 06:48, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I suggested the two year period for Doctor Who as a pragmatic choice, because at the time the revival of Doctor Who was almost exactly two years in the past. Having said that, there was absolutely no objection to the choice, and after that every single spoiler tag was removed from all Doctor Who articles, and there was no controversy over this. --Tony Sidaway 08:30, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

On the two-year "compromise": I came up with this independently, not realizing that Tony had suggested something similar for the Dr. Who articles. I also mentioned that two years was somewhat arbitrary, and it could quite reasonably be three, or five.

The basis for it was the empirical observation that most of the complaints/concerns about spoilers occur when a work is relatively new. The older the work, the less likely that you'll find any kind of tag on other reference sites, or that you will encounter complaints from someone whose reading/viewing experience was purportedly "spoiled." You'll also find that where {{spoiler}} tags are added on Misplaced Pages, it's usually on articles describing fairly new material. You needn't take my word for any of this. Do the research yourself, and this is what you'll find.

The two-year window is a proposed compromise between the people who'd prefer to see no tags under any circumstances, and those who want to tag Three little pigs. A number of people associated with the "no-tags" faction said they could live with this. Surprisingly, the "pro-tags" faction turned it down, although it would have resulted in spoiler tags being added to thousands of articles. Marc Shepherd 14:49, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Where are those people who want spoiler warnings on the three little pigs?--Nydas 15:08, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Here is just ONE example of it being added to that article. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 15:15, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

There were multiple editors who felt rather strongly that Three little pigs and similar articles ought to have spoiler tags. In mentioning that example, I am merely framing the outer limits of the debate—the other extreme being those who oppose spoiler tags under all conceivable circumstances. Marc Shepherd 15:34, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Four or five editors. Two with logins. One of which was a new contributor, but was blocked indefinitely without warning. Framing the debate with them is misleading.--Nydas 16:02, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

If you want to know why that editor was summarily blocked as a troll, look at his only other edits. --Tony Sidaway 19:03, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Which means they should have been banned on the 2nd of May if they were going to be banned .Garda40 20:08, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Their other edits are harmless . Of the five, there are two sandbox tests, two talk page tests and one spoiler tag restoration.--Nydas 19:31, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Keyspam for background on this. Such spamming became something of an internet fad for a month or so in the spring. --Tony Sidaway 19:48, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

They removed it from their talk page themselves, and it does not seem serious.--Nydas 20:01, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

This kind of spamming, "keyspam", was widely discussed at the time, and this discussion on spoiler tags is not the place to rehash the discussions. --Tony Sidaway 23:24, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

The point is they put them there. So either they thought it needed to be there, or you must admit that they fell into the trap of "WP articles contain spoiler warnings, so I'll add them when I find ones that don't have them." I for one believe this happened a LOT -- I know I accepted them at first as a status quo, not particularly thinking they were needed or unneeded. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 16:06, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Isn't this dredging up the past, as I have been accused of doing?--Nydas 18:58, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

You can't seriously believe that's the same thing, can you? ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 20:40, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Tony, the consistent problem with your analysis is the mistaken notion that "Plot" is synonomous with "includes spoilers." While I agree that Plot sections must include spoilers, if there be any, and that to not do so is in violation of WP:NPOV, it is not the case that a spoiler notice is never appropriate for such sections. Not all plots can be spoiled because not all stories contain the sort of surprises or "plot twists" that are the very making of spoilers. There is a difference between Bridget Jones Diary/The Lion King and Fight Club/The Sixth Sense that is obvious to anyone with an appropriately moderate view on the matter of spoilers. That is, if we exclude the extreme views ("nothing is a spoiler!"/"who cares about narrative suspense?" at one end and "everything is a spoiler!"/"O-M-G, the main character doesn't appear until fifteen seconds in? You've ruined everything for me!" at the other), we make the task of deciding when a tag is or is not appropriate quite tractable. Postmodern Beatnik 03:33, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually I agree with you that there may be instances where a spoiler tag is appropriate in a plot section. When we encounter such instances we can agree to add the tag. That's what our guideline says. --Tony Sidaway 04:18, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I am glad to hear you agree, Tony. That has not come across (to me, at least) in previous exchanges. And it seems that at times you have tried to interpret the guideline in an overly stringent manner. But see? We're coming closer to consensus every second! :) Postmodern Beatnik 16:14, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Marc - why is that surprising, when you yourself admit that 2 years is an arbitrary number? The issue isn't "how many spoiler tags can we get on articles," it's about what makes sense for what encyclopedia readers would expect. I think people are not asking the critical question if we are to take the years based approach: what time limit would make sense for the vast majority of readers for spoiler tags and why would it make sense? I'm not for making compromises for the sake of compromise; a compromise that is made should be based on some sort of objective criteria.

At 2 years, there are still numerous works of fiction that people will check that they wouldn't want to have spoiled. Add to that translated works and its even longer. If we judge just based on film and TV, 10 years would be a mark where most works of fiction that interest them would have been seen by the Misplaced Pages readers. Other works, like books, the period of time would go back more decades. I think at least 10 years would be good, because that's at least when most TV/movies would have been seen that are interesting to the reader in question. Perhaps 20-30 years for books, beyond that it's mostly classics that are required reading in academia that are read. I would suggest just one standard for all fiction to simplify things, but if necessary, we could divide it up based on work of fiction, because the "reader dynamics" of them are different.

I'd also like to ask what the reason is for not putting spoiler tags on Three Little Pigs, as opposed to other works? There are Fairy Tales/Fables/etc that are appealing to adults (e.g. Shrek). If we are to exclude them for that, it would only make sense based on how ubiquitous is--almost everyone knows it, at least in the cultures we're in (should cultural bias be considered?). So there could be a rule based on ubiquity for people in the culture(s) that would read that language version of Misplaced Pages in question (e.g. English Misplaced Pages). -Nathan J. Yoder 09:04, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I was surprised because it was a compromise proposal that many of the "anti-warning" crowd said they could live with, which is not easy to come by. If it were implemented, the two-year period might eventually start to expand. If you are "pro-warning," you have to think strategically: take a victory where you can get it, and grow from there.

If it's about what makes sense for what encyclopedia readers would expect, then those expectations need to be established somehow. Where do those expectations come from? It's not as if there are 10 other encyclopedias, 8 of which have spoiler warnings. If you are making the argument that people "expect" spoiler warnings, you should try to establish the truth of that statement through comparisons with what other reference sites have done. For a particular class of works, if you find that spoiler tags are generally absent in most or all other reference sites, then it becomes awfully difficult to argue that the tags are necessary because readers have come to expect them.

The two-year limit is, in fact, based on asking the critical question: for what types of works are readers generally most likely to expect spoiler tags to be present? Overwhelmingly, it is for works that are fairly new. If you can find a number of reference works that put spoiler tags on 30-year-old novels, then it would bolster your position, but I don't think you're going to find much evidence of that.

Addendum: Another useful data point comes from watching User:MiszaBot/spoilers (which is updated whenever {{spoiler}} is included in an article). The articles where it shows up are overwhelmingly describing fairly new works. Marc Shepherd 12:06, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

To be honest, the 'two year compromise' may have been disagreed with for by at least some on the pro-tag side because of side elements to the main issue. For example, 1) that is wasn't actually a spoiler tag, but a 'current fiction' tag (at least, as I recall currently, my memory may not be working at full capacity at the moment), and 2) that it was a blanket tag over the whole article. If we agreed that articles within a certain timeframe (the exact date is negotiable, but let's say for the sake of ease of conversation, 2 years) could have a more or less free use of the spoiler tag (presumptively pro-spoiler tag). After the 2 years are up, articles become pretty well where we are now - presumptively no-spoiler tags, with the possibility of exemptions in specific cases, I, as an pro-tag person, could probably accept that compromise, (I'd strongly prefer that it's not a blanket warning, but rather targeted at specific sections that spoil). Of course, much depends on the exact wording - I've already seen cases where what looks like a decent compromise gets worded in such a way that they really aren't. Wandering Ghost 15:55, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Your two caveats are pretty much correct. I did suggest using a version of the {{current fiction}} tag—with comparable tags to be developed for other genres. However, I thought that it should be modified to explicitly use the word "spoiler," which the current tag does not.

I also suggested tagging the whole article, because no one has ever suggested a workable definition of "spoiler" more narrow than that. Here again, the empirical evidence offered by User:MiszaBot/spoilers is instructive. Most of the time, when people use {{spoiler}}, they apply it rather indiscriminately to the whole plot. Editors can't seem to agree how much of the story you're permitted to give away without "spoiling" it for somebody. Marc Shepherd 20:48, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

The anti-all-spoiler crowd is in the minority, so I wouldn't take a compromise just because it's a compromise. It's not so much "expect" as it is "prefer," specifically in terms of those wanting to enjoy a work of fiction, looking to read a summary. Obviously there aren't opinion polls on this, but you can search for spoiler warnings on popular sites with Google (e.g. IMDB) using the "site:" keyword and/or with Google Blog Search (or bloglines, technorati, etc) to see how common they are. "spoiler warning" -wikipedia itself gets 450k hits. If you're clever you might be able to figure out a way to search certain classes of fiction and if not that, you can just do 'case studies' for specific works.

In my experience, when it comes to internet posts about new fiction, especially very popular fiction, you'll usually see spoiler warnings added to the spoiling parts or to mark the entire thing as containing spoilers. It's not safe to assume that the pro-spoiler-warning crowd wants an all inclusive, as opposed to fine-grained, spoiler warnings. Personally, I'm for only the fine-grained variety, as it should be obvious that encyclopedia articles will strive to include all important details about a work of fiction, but it is not obvious which sections of that work will contain the actual spoilers.

As for your statement regarding them tending to be on new works, that's simply because newer works are the ones that tend to be the most popular at any given moment (in terms of people actually viewing/reading it at the time). Articles on less popular subjects (at any given time) will get less attention. Plus, with newer works, you get far more people who haven't viewed/read the work of fiction, making it more likely for someone to feel compelled to add a spoiler tag for that reason. You need to take that statistic in proportion.

If, for example, the percentages of new vs. old fiction at any given time being viewed/read was 95% for new and 5% for old, then you shouldn't expect more than 5% of spoiler warnings to be added to articles on old works. In addition to that, people will also be more likely to assume that others have read/viewed an older work by that point, so they won't bother with spoilers unless they know otherwise.

As for a working definition of spoilers, I have seen people describe it off-hand, but I can attempt a more (semi-)formal definition. A spoiler is an element of the plot that would be unexpected from someone who has learned the basics elements of the work's beginning (basic premise, initial setting, initial [especially main[ characters, etc) and would ruin the enjoyment of the work by virtue of the spoiler being given away (it was intended by the author(s) to remain a mystery until later in the work). Something you wouldn't expect to learn from an official summary/preview of a movie, for example. -Nathan J. Yoder 06:59, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that editors will not be able to agree whether something is a spoiler. Yes, there may be a few wild cases (and probably for especially popular fannish things especially), but for the majority of things, if you put on a basic guidelines (such as including that it's usually not appropriate to put spoilers around the whole plot), people will agree on a standard that's probably pretty close to what Nathan just posted above. For me, the perfect example of this, in non-wiki terms was 'The Sixth Sense'. When the movie came out, people seemed to do a remarkable job of agreeing to self-spoiler-watch. They might talk about the movie, and elements of the plot and some might say that there is a twist ending, but few people seemed to say it out loud - at least, I know the first time I heard anybody describe it without warning and making sure others around have seen it, was at least a year after it came out. Everybody seemed to know what the spoiler of that movie was, and they danced around it. (I'm speaking only from my own experience,

so this is all anecdotal). In Wiki terms, that would have been a spoiler warning on the last section of the plot.

I think one of the reasons people blanket-spoilered the whole plot was 1) thinking that was just policy, the way to do it (I started that way myself), combined with 2) the fact that 'plot' just _isn't_ a heading where it is completely intuitively obvious that it will spoil everything (it's been pointed out by a number of people that, in common discussions if you ask someone what the plot of a movie is, you're generally not interested in the spoilers), which might have lead to 1.

Now, blanket labelling a whole article by pointing out that it's current fiction I feel removes utility for not much gain - most people searching wikipedia will probably have a rough idea that something is within the length of time of required for it to be 'current fiction', and they want _some_ information anyway. A blanket warning therefore just forces them to choose 'read this and maybe be spoiled, or don't read it' - which is absolutely no different from the choice they have on any other page, except it's in their face (in actuality, it would be more useful to have a blanket warning on _older_ works, such that 'this work is considered 'old fiction' and as such spoiler warnings are not included', since that would actually _warn_. I'm not advocating for that it, I'm just saying that would make more sense to me than the current fiction blanket). Targetted warnings let them know what sections can be read, which is what most people want.

As to the use of a current fiction tag rather than spoilers - using the spoiler tag specifically has a side benefit, one I see as very helpful, that probably a number of the anti-warning group don't even consider. It helps break up the spoiler patrol without trying to force a policy. Because it means a fair number of pages will legitimately have the spoiler tag, it's harder for them to search for all uses of the tag and try to force them out. The 'border cases', the exceptions that we always hope local consensus will determine, will be more free to have that local consensus develop and won't be so plagued with people who have an axe to grind and decide to vote nearly every case down. Wandering Ghost 11:52, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I miss the spoiler tags

I miss the spoiler tags. I've been editing Misplaced Pages since 2004 and been reading it since I don't know when. The spoiler tags are very non-intrusive in their design so I don't get why some people have such an aversion against them? I mean, look at this: Template:Spoiler Spoiler tags are a feature, not a bug. Is it really so disturbing to your eyes that you want to remove a feature that is very useful to many of us? Don't you think that is a little begrudging of you? Using spoiler tags shows that Misplaced Pages cares about its readers. Template:Endspoiler Of course we could use thinner borders and less margin if that makes you feel less queasy. And I really think that the "note" link should be in italics too. Oh, and that link is a self reference. It should probably link to Spoiler (media) instead.

Well, that was my 10 cents on the subject.

--David Göthberg 22:41, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments, however I expect you will find all the response you need to your sentiments in the archives. David Fuchs 22:47, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

What's the point of looking at the archives if he wants to make a statement .Garda40 22:59, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

What's the point of making a statement if it's been said in the archives? David Fuchs 23:15, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Please point me to where David Göthberg made that statement in the archives or are we now banning people who only spot the spoiler tag issue at his point from adding in their views .Garda40 23:40, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

David Göthberg (22:41) wrote: "I miss the spoiler tags" Would you accept the compromise of getting spoiler tags back, but hidden by default, so you would have to click around to make them show up? Milo 23:29, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

The "hidden by default" proposal has failed to win many adherents, and I doubt it ever will. Nowhere else does Misplaced Pages hide content because some editors would rather not see it. The proposal is also laden with cynicism. Its underlying premise is that the anti-spoiler-tag faction will "go away," once they no longer have to see the tags themselves. But this misses the point, because the anti-tag faction consists primarily of people who actually care about the encyclopedia. They're not going to stop caring just because content they object to has been hidden from their view. It is much better (and more intellectually honest) to propose the conditions where the tags ought to exist, and when those conditions are satisfied, to leave them in plain sight. Marc Shepherd 00:21, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Let's see what Mr. Göthberg's answer is. Milo 01:12, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I didn't know he was assigned the tie-breaking vote. Marc Shepherd 12:33, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

My wikilinks must be broken: WP:DON'TASKQUESTIONS still comes up red. Kuronue | Talk 17:55, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Marc, I proposed "hidden by default" because one of the major arguments of anti-spoilerists was that spoiler warnings are condescending to the reader and also that Misplaced Pages somehow loses credibility, if it has them. So yes, it assumes that people who are against SWs find it condescending, therefore they wouldn't see it. Same for the people who will not seek them, will not see them, therefore encyclopedia will be more credible. I don't buy that argument about credibility - I believe if someone judges Misplaced Pages by the existence of SWs, then it's his own problem, and cannot be helped. So the premise wasn't that anti-spoilerists will disappear, it actually addressed some of their issues. And, if the anti-spoilers care so much about Misplaced Pages, why don't they care about actual audience? I am sure there is a lot more loyal fans that appreciate SWs than there is university professors of literature that are offended by them. Samohyl Jan 18:03, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, you could argue that if someone judges Misplaced Pages by its lack of SWs, then it's his own problem, and cannot be helped.

I do agree that the solution to the spoiler debate is to tailor the encyclopedia to the expectations of the audience. But the only way to do that is to actually survey what other reference works have done. If most reference sites that discuss recent video games have spoiler tags, it's safe to guess that readers of Misplaced Pages articles about recent video games might expect them too. If most reference sites that discuss Shakespeare's plays lack spoiler tags, then it's safe to guess that no rational reader would expect Misplaced Pages to have them either.

Yet, to date, only one contributor to this thread has actually tried to demonstrate reader expectations with any kind of empirical evidence: Clockster did a survey of movie sites. There were some methodological flaws (Amazon.com and usenet forums aren't really comparable to Misplaced Pages), and she only looked at movie sites. But still, it was a very significant step in the right direction. We need a lot more of that. Marc Shepherd 19:07, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

This is not true, I did a poll among people on RFC page, how much (if at all) they use SWs, but it was interrupted. Samohyl Jan 19:23, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Spoiler warnings that are hidden by default are unlikely to work because editors will add handmade spoiler warnings that they can see instead of spoiler tags that they cannot see any result of (from their point of view, it would appear that the spoiler tag is broken). — Carl (CBM · talk) 18:29, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Is it not possible to add some sort of instruction to the tag template?--Nydas 18:38, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Every Misplaced Pages guideline and policy is constantly violated. Compliance is possible only with perpetual vigilance. This is true of the current spoiler guideline, and would be true of any revision to that guideline. So I think we should concern ourselves with what the guideline ought to say, not with the fact that it will be frequently ignored, because all guidelines are frequently ignored. Marc Shepherd 19:07, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how this differs from the current situation, when the SWs are effectively banned. So this is not a good argument. Samohyl Jan 19:16, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Other sites

I did some searching, but couldn't find any encyclopedic web sites dedicated to entertainment. Most of the sites out there are fan-based, retail-based or places like imdb.com. But Britannica does not even have articles on individual works, so you can't use them as a comparison either.

The way I see it, it's reasonable to assume readers will know the a work will be spoiled for them if there is a plot section more than two or three paragraphs. But when there is only a paragraph or two, they're more likely to assume it's just a snapshot of the plot similar to what's printed on the back of DVD cases and books. In some cases, though, the ending is given away in just one paragraph. Like here in the Death Wish 3 article (I was being quick and couldn't find a better example):

"Paul Kersey (again played by Bronson) returns to New York City to visit a war buddy from the Korean war, only to find his friend brutally murdered by a gang led by a reverse mohawk-wearing Manny Fraker (Gavan O'Herlihy). Soon afterwards, the police coerce Kersey into attacking a criminal riot in a dangerous neighborhood as a way of exploiting his freedom from legal restraints. In the film's climax, Kersey mows down many of the criminals with a Browning M1919A4 machine gun, then obliterates the criminal leader with a mail-ordered rocket launcher." --YellowTapedR 00:49, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

What's weird about that plot summary is it's incredibly simple and concise, yet full fo incredibly pointless info (a Browning M1919A4? Do we need to know exactly what make and model of gun used?) David Fuchs 01:03, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I only used that example because it was the first one I could find by typing in a few semi-obscure films. (If you look at the Browning M1919A4 article, you'll see it isn't any ordinary gun). My point was: If spoiler warnings are not allowed in plot sections, what, if anything can be done about articles that give away everything in just a paragraph? I don't know the answer. Just putting it out there. --YellowTapedR 01:10, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

You can expand the plot summary to an encyclopedic length. Readers shouldn't expect the non-summaries that appear on DVD covers. Those non-summaries are intended to conceal the plot, while our articles are intended to include it. — Carl (CBM · talk) 01:25, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Spoiler templates proposal at WP:PW

As many people may/may not know spoilers are regulary entered into professional wrestling articles by IP's or other users, which are quickly removed. I have proposed several templates to help warn the user(s). The discussion is ongoing. If you wish to participate, click here. Davnel03 06:48, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Two recent edits reverted

I've reverted the two most recent edits to this guideline:

This edit by User:Jere7my, removed the word "completeness" from the following statement in the section "When spoiler warnings should not be used":

Spoiler warnings must not interfere with neutral point of view, completeness, encyclopedic tone, or any other element of article quality.

The edit summary was as follows: '"Completeness" doesn't belong here — adding a spoiler tag doesn't remove any information, so it can't affect completeness, can it? Editing to remove spoilers could, but that's not what this describes.'

A good example of where using spoiler tags may interfere with completeness is where a very significant fact about the subject of an article is confined behind a spoiler tag in an inner section, causing it to be omitted from the lead section.

This edit, by User:Parsifal, changes the following statement in the section "When spoiler warnings may be appropriate":

Spoiler notices may be appropriate when significant plot revelations appear in unexpected places, if there is consensus that this is necessary (note it on the talk page).

The new version read as follows:

Spoiler notices may be appropriate when significant plot revelations appear in unexpected places. As with all content, if a particular spoiler notice is disputed, discuss on the talk page and abide by consensus with regard to including or omitting the spoiler notice.

The edit summary was: 'consensus is not required "in advance" to edit Misplaced Pages (WP:BOLD); consensus is needed when content is questioned (WP:CONSENSUS, WP:BRD'

I think that here the editor of the guideline has confused the concept of consensus and discussion. Consensus is required for all edits--those that don't have consensus are (eventually) undone. That an edit may be made without discussion is the essence of be bold, and this is true of removing or adding a spoiler warning if the editor believes he has reason to suppose that consensus exists for his edit.

The new wording is unnecessarily cluttered. It is moreover current practice, and not at all controversial, for editors to place spoiler tags where they believe they should be placed, so the version of the guideline to which I have reverted expresses current practice accurately without making a meal of it. --Tony Sidaway 12:57, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I concur with Jere7my's edit. The situation Tony described that might affect completeness is not addressed by the sentence he reverted, it's a different subject and is covered by a different part of the guideline. Adding a spoiler notice does not cause information to move to a different section and thereby be omitted. That would violate the part of the guideline that addresses that point.

Adding a spoiler notice "adds" something, does not remove anything, it adds the information that a spoiler is coming up in the text. If someone moved information out of the lead because it's a spoiler, that would be a different action and could interfere with completeness. But simply adding a notice that a spoiler is present does not cause information to move or be omitted. So Jere7my was correct to remove the word - we should use the version as he edited it. --Parsifal _Hello 18:47, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Parsifal. You've stated my point very well; that section, per its title, should cover whether or not to place spoiler tags, not warn about other edits that may follow from their placement. Tony's concern is covered in the lede — "...it should be placed with careful consideration to assure that it does not create a damaging effect on article organization..." — and could be added to the "How to add or remove spoiler warnings" section. (Also, I'm glad to see my "unexpected places" phrasing survives! :) ) --Jere7my 06:27, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Why not remove the reference about the need for consensus, since the definition of consensus you are using today makes it inevitable?--Nydas 18:26, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Nydas makes a good point. Actually that is exactly what I was doing. That sentence of guideline should say this:

Spoiler notices may be appropriate when significant plot revelations appear in unexpected places.

That's all that's needed, in the section for where they may be appropriate (There's plenty of "when not to use" reasons in the "when not to use" section).

The reason I added the second sentence when I made the edit, was as a concession in advance, knowing that the opponents of spoiler use would want some acknowledgment there may be a dispute and that discussion for consensus would then be needed. But Nydas is correct, based on Tony's argument above the second part is not needed and the simple direct version would be best. --Parsifal _Hello 18:47, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I consense restoration of Parsifal's edit, and concur with Nydas to omit the second sentence per Tony's reasoning. That combination correctly puts spoiler tag adding or deleting on a standard bold, consensus, and/if discussion par with all other edits. Milo 23:56, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I also endorse these changes.Wandering Ghost 00:08, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't see why we should remove the reference to consensus, since that is what we're trying to drive home: that such edits, like any others, are not automatic (which until recently they sadly had become) but are subject to consensus.

Parsifal says:

Adding a spoiler notice does not cause information to move to a different section and thereby be omitted. That would violate the part of the guideline that addresses that point

Well, adding a spoiler notice, does cause information to move. That's the most insidious problem here. If somebody pops a spoiler tag before "Romeo, ignorant of the plot to fake Juliet's death, arrives at her tomb and commits suicide..." it amounts to saying "don't talk about the circumstances of Romeo's death anywhere else in the article, Which is bloody stupid, but we did actually have quite a tussle over that article. --Tony Sidaway 01:05, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Slippery slope fallacy, Tony. What you're talking about is not an abuse of the spoiler tag, but a failure of editors due to ignorance. It is not the tag's fault that people are unfamiliar with policy, and it does not cause anything. Place a tag in an article and have everyone leave it alone for three days. I guarantee you not a word will have moved. ; ) Postmodern Beatnik 03:39, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Removing spoiler warnings also causes information to move, and causes information to be removed, and a perceived lack of ability to add them causes information to be less likely to be added in the first place. Surely that is now cause to readd them. :) Wandering Ghost 12:48, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

As tony is the only one arguing that "completeness" is necessary, I've re-removed it. If he manages to convince people and consensus shifts, let someone else add it back in; I'm tired of "Tony disagrees, thus no consensus". Kuronue | Talk 01:23, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

• sigh* Not again...♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 02:49, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Care to elaborate, or are you content to only insinuate that we should abandon consensus as an official policy? Postmodern Beatnik 03:39, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm more than happy with Kuronue's alternate wording (in which he simply removes the words "if there is consensus that this is necessary (note it on the talk page)." As I've stated above, the consensus requirement is implicit in every Misplaced Pages edit. The problem that I had identified with Parsifal's edit, above, was "the editor of the guideline has confused the concept of consensus and discussion." Better to leave something unstated and implicit than to misrepresent.

On Kuronue's statement that 'tony is the only one arguing that "completeness" is necessary', that's obviously incorrect. User:Marc Shepherd has restored it twice in the past week. The term "completeness" first appeared in an edit to Misplaced Pages:Spoiler warning/draft at 01:41, 19 May 2007, made by User:Hipocrite, who has since then been renamed to User:DepartedUser. The wording of the draft was introduced to Misplaced Pages:Spoiler in this edit by User:Ned Scott after the old guideline had been marked as rejected. The wording has remained, despite occasional challenges, because it is evident that inappropriate use of this particular tag has in the past seriously constrained completeness and neutral point of view over time. For instance, the lead section of our Romeo and Juliet article used to read:

'' The Tragedy of Romeo and Juliet is a tragedy by William Shakespeare concerning the fate of two young "star-cross'd lovers". It is one of the most famous of Shakespeare's plays, one of his earliest theatrical triumphs, and is thought to be the most archetypal love story of the Renaissance and indeed the history of Western culture.

Now that's fine as far as it goes, but it's very vague. This seems to be because discussion the actual plot was regarded as a "spoiler", and confined to the "Synopsis" section behind a spoiler tag.

Now let's look at the first paragraph of the lead in the current version:

''Romeo and Juliet is an early tragedy by William Shakespeare about two teenage "star-cross'd lovers" whose "untimely deaths" ultimately unite their rival households. The play has been highly praised by literary critics for its language and dramatic effect. It was among Shakespeare's most popular plays during his lifetime and, along with Hamlet, is one of his most frequently performed plays. It is considered by many to be the world's most iconic love story.

Still not perfect (the almost meaningless superlative "iconic" should be replaced by something more sensible, and "rival" doesn't pack the same punch as "feuding") but a great improvement over the older version, which dates from 13 May. The lead section is more complete. --Tony Sidaway 14:17, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

In 99% of cases revealing the ending in the lead is the result of lapsing into an in-universe viewpoint, acting as if it really happened, as is the case here.--Nydas 14:59, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it's usually inappropriate, and that is why we don't have words in the guideline saying "the plot must always be discussed in the lead. I don't think that is the case with the lead of Romeo and Juliet. It is not just a love story featuring two colorless ingenues. The plot contributes to its enduring significance, not to mention its popularity. Moreover the article tells us that it has been observed that "until this play romance had not been viewed as a worthy topic for tragedy" (Levenson, Jill L (2000) (ed.). Introduction. Romeo and Juliet. William Shakespeare. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 49–50. ISBN 0192814966.) The use of a tragic rather than a melodramatic form, and the serious treatment, contributed to the success of what was in essence a new form of tragedy. --Tony Sidaway 15:16, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

There's nothing there which makes revealing the ending necessary for the lead, especially since it has already said it's a tragedy. The part about uniting their rival households makes it sound like there's a sequel in the works.--Nydas 06:19, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

1) I'm a she. You'd think after all this time being on opposite sides of this particular debate you'd have bothered to stop by my userpage at least once >.>

2) Tony's the only one arguing for it. One other editor is merely reverting and not coming to the talk page to discuss. Neither of those facts, taken together or seperatly, indicates consensus. Those in favor of fewer or no spoiler tags talk a lot about consensus; I wish to verify that there is, indeed, consensus, before we add things to the guideline. In general, if we omit something that has consensus on accident, it's less detrimental than leaving something in without consensus and then forcing people to abide by it. Kuronue | Talk 02:21, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Completeness

I re-added "completeness," which has been in the article for at least three months, and as far as I can find, without any previous complaint. The full sentence is as follows:

Spoiler warnings must not interfere with neutral point of view, completeness, encyclopedic tone, or any other element of article quality.

Can anyone explain why, among the elements listed, "completeness" would not belong? Marc Shepherd 11:11, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I think it's already been explained, and agreed to by a number of editors - the addition of a spoiler warning _can't_ affect completeness. It does not remove information. Tailoring an article so that spoilers appear in one place might affect completeness (and that is described as against policy elsewhere), but a warning itself does not. As such, the word is unneeded. And something being in the article for at least 3 months without a problem isn't a particular endorsement of it, unless you want to suggest that any undiscovered error somehow gains added legitimacy the longer it remains undiscovered. ;) Wandering Ghost 12:45, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I just can't fathom why in the world there's an edit war over a damn relatively harmless word. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 13:02, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, Tony, Melodia and I all agree it belongs there. However, I've moved the entire sentence, so that no one can claim that adding a warning detracts from completeness. The addition of a spoiler warning wouldn't affect "neutral point of view" or "encyclopedic tone" either, so by the argument given they presumably should have been deleted too! Choosing "completeness" alone for deletion is incoherent. Marc Shepherd 13:18, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd certainly agree that adding a spoiler warning can't affect "encyclopedic tone", but that's been one of the anti-warning crowd's primary arguments for eliminating them, so I thought it politic to leave that in. I've also seen it claimed that adding a warning is not NPOV, because the editor is picking and choosing which information to "protect". (I don't agree with these arguments, but they are pretty common, so I tried to take them into account.) --Jere7my 17:35, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, now that I think about it, isn't that whole sentence equivalent to "Don't violate Misplaced Pages policies when editing"? Isn't that redundant? I glanced at a few other style guidelines (e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Accessibility), and didn't see "Making an article accessible must not interfere with neutral point of view, completeness, encyclopedic tone, or any other element of article quality." The closest I saw (in an admittedly cursory examination) was "Controversial articles, by their very nature, require far greater care to achieve a neutral point of view" — i.e., a sentence explaining why you should use care when editing such articles, not a reminder to follow the rules.

We've also let a "must" phrasing back in, when style guidelines should use "should"s. --Jere7my 18:46, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you that, in theory, if someone had really absorbed and understood all of the other guidelines, the sentence would be redundant. But no one needs to pass a test before editing Misplaced Pages, and many editors don't know all of the policies—even those as fundamental as WP:NPOV. It's fairly common that spoiler-sensitive editors allow their concerns to influence article content, so the point seems to be worth making. If you do a search, you will find that many other guideline/policy pages refer to each other. This certainly isn't the only place that it happens.

The word "must" appears to be correct in this instance, as I am fairly certain that these are non-negotiable points. "Should" would be appropriate if it were sometimes permissible to compromise completeness, NPOV, or encyclopedic tone due to spoiler concerns. Marc Shepherd 20:18, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

"Must" seems to run counter to the idea of a style guide, which after all begins with a block containing the words, "However, it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception." Anything strong enough to warrant a "must" is better explained elsewhere, and seems redundant here; a style sheet doesn't seem like the place to recapitulate "Intro to Editing Misplaced Pages 101." *shrug* --Jere7my 21:38, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Fan-use of spoilers

Looking at the whatlinkshere for {{Spoiler}}, I noticed that a great deal of them are people posting them on talk pages... we should probably sort this out, as I'm pretty sure it hasn't been discussed in length. David Fuchs 20:47, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh good grief .They're on the talk pages and what's probably more important they are historical (at least the 20 or some I clicked are and I can't see that would be different for most of them ) .Garda40 21:21, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree. Kinda silly to weed them out on talk pages. Considering part of the main arguments is that spoiler warnings are a "forum thing" and not an "encyclopedia thing" -- talk pages are forums. So what's wrong with them there? ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 21:32, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree as well...it's the least of Misplaced Pages's problems. Marc Shepherd 21:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Whilst use of tagging on talk pages probably feeds other inappropriate uses of spoiler tags to some extent, I don't think it's a big deal. I think "forum thing" is a blind alley because our talk pages are not forums in that sense. Nevertheless, it's a very low priority matter. --Tony Sidaway 16:58, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Spoiler tags are redundant in plot summary sections

The point of a section entitled "plot summary" in an encyclopedia article on a book or other work of fiction is to summarize the entire plot of the work, including all important details and the ending. This contrasts with copy on book jackets and newspaper reviews. These are intentionally not plot summaries. They intentionally leave out important details in the interest of selling books (in the case of book covers) or avoiding spoilers (in the case of reviews). Our goal here is not to sell books or to avoid spoilers - it is to be comprehensive in our coverage of all important aspects of any work of fiction for which we have an article. That's why spoiler tags are redundant on plot summary sections here. — Carl (CBM · talk) 02:09, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Spoiler tags are not redundant in plot summaries. Readers often may wish to know the premise of a plot, and the initial elements, but still wish to skip over sections of the plot description that would spoil the experience of reading the book or seeing the film.

In the current guideline, it is stated that separate sections of articles should not be set aside for spoilers to be included. Therefore spoilers, if they exist in a story, will appear in the plot section. If we eliminate spoiler notices from the plot sections, then readers who want a plot summary without spoilers are out of luck and will visit IMDb instead of Misplaced Pages.

We can solve this by either accepting spoiler notices within the plot section, or by accepting that some fiction articles will have two plot sections - one that is a summary with no spoilers included, and another more complete plot section that does include spoilers.

Since there has been very strong opposition to the idea of accepting separate spoiled and non-spoiled plot sections, it seems that the best solution is to accept spoiler notices within plot sections when there is an important plot twist.

If we don't accept that, then many readers will simply avoid Misplaced Pages articles about films or books they have not seen or read. That deprecates Misplaced Pages by reducing readership; it deprecates the experience of those readers who would like to know more about a film or book before experiencing it, in that some advance knowledge can make the experience better in many ways; and it deprecates the work of those Misplaced Pages editors who are also enthusiasts of film or book fiction and who do not wish their work to spoil the experience of others. --Parsifal _Hello 02:31, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, readers who do not want to learn the plot of a fictional work should not read an encyclopedia article about the work, and certainly should not read a section entitled "plot summary" in an encyclopedia article about the work. — Carl (CBM · talk) 02:33, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I removed the edit which perpetuates the plot=spoilers fallacy. Some plot summaries have spoilers and some don't; that's a fact that falsifies an unqualified claim of spoiler tag redundancy in plot summary sections.

Garion96's edit summary weakly attempted to justify a connection between the two using the unqualified phrase "plot or plot summary is an excellent indication there will be spoilers", meaning he claims by probability that one is very likely to find spoilers in all the things or at least most of the things called "plot" or "plot summary" that exist in the publishing world. I doubt that's true because of the bias by publishers, fans, and reviewers, to avoid spoilers. Summaries by their nature leave things out. Since there is both a profit bias and a social disappointment bias to leave spoilers out, then logically spoilers will be left out far more often than other plot details, making it less likely to find spoilers in plot summaries. How much less likely is more difficult to say, but at the least it falsifies the claim of "an excellent indication". Until and unless proved otherwise, I assess Garion96's claim to be a notion.

Out of the many kinds of "plot" and "plot summary", I used the example of novel jackets because it was the largest and most simple example that would fit in the edit summary.

CBM wrote (02:33): "The point of a section entitled "plot summary" in an encyclopedia article on a book or other work of fiction is to summarize the entire plot of the work, including all important details and the ending." I agree that this sounds like a "Misplaced Pages plot summary", that being a particular type of plot summary heavily promoted on this page for months, but the article sections aren't being titled that way. The readers only see "Plot summary" and Misplaced Pages by policy does not uniquely decide the definition or restrict range of use of that or any other common-use phrase. There exist other types of write-ups that readers seem to think are plot summaries in a continuum ranging from many details with an ending, to the skeleton summaries printed in TV schedules. Are you saying all those readers are wrong? If so, can you prove it?

''CBM wrote (02:33): "This contrasts with copy on book jackets and newspaper reviews. These are intentionally not plot summaries." Intentionally not plot summaries? Can you cite a definitional source for this breath-taking claim covering the entire field of book and newspaper publishing? Milo 07:46, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

The empirical evidence contradicts what Milo is saying. When editors put {{spoiler}} on a page, the most commmon usage is to mark the entire plot, or in some cases the entire article. It would seem, then, that the average editor does not see it the way Milo does.

I do agree with Milo that the common-sense meaning of "spoiler" is not the entire plot, but some subset of it. But it's clear that, without better guidance, editors will continue to use the {{spoiler}} tag rather indiscriminately. Marc Shepherd 12:42, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

That's a good idea. I added an instruction in the "how to use" section of the guideline to clarify this. --Parsifal _Hello 17:01, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I did explain why it isn't right to compare newspaper/book jacket plot blurbs with plot blurbs in an encyclopedia. "They intentionally leave out important details in the interest of selling books (in the case of book covers) or avoiding spoilers (in the case of reviews)."

Let me expand on an earlier comment I made: any section here entitled "plot summary" should cover all significant points of the plot of the work, including spoilers and the ending as appropriate. If some articles don't do this, it's because the articles aren't done yet. In an ideal limit when every article has reached perfection, those incomplete articles would have longer plot summaries. The right solution to a plot summary that only has some significant details, but not all of them, is to add the rest when possible, not add a spoiler tag for the ones that are there. — Carl (CBM · talk) 14:15, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

If mis-use of tags isn't good enough reason to delete them (there's discussion about the Trivia tag along the same lines, that people tag anything labeled "Trivia" even if it's appropriate to the article as per the guideline), then it's certainly not good enough reason to re-write the guideline. Just because people misuse spoiler tags, and misuse them often, doesn't mean there's never a proper use for them; misuse of fact tags doesn't mean you shouldn't tag anything as unverified, does it? I think we need to throw out this "people misuse them" argument and focus on the ideal - because isn't the guideline here to show us what, if all the tags were used properly, things SHOULD look like? Kuronue | Talk 20:17, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I would much rather discuss situations where the tags might be appropriate. There has been a lack of such examples. Would you suggest a couple test cases? — Carl (CBM · talk) 13:16, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Random deletion of guideline text, and how to deal with it

It seems that the trend lately is to randomly lop some text out of the guideline. The latest victim here is the following sentence:

There are additional considerations for deciding whether to include spoiler tags or not; for example, it is generally redundant to put the tags in sections marked 'Plot' or 'Plot Summary'.

Now if there is some problem about the placing of that statement, fine, but it's indisputable that when we've gone in and removed such occurrences of spoiler tags there is hardly ever any comeback. Actually there's hardly ever any comeback anyway, but in "plot" sections this is particularly noticeable.

We've been going on the current guideline now for three months or so, so perhaps we ought to start to write about our experiences in a historical mode. With actual editing data, we could actually corroborate with good fidelity the fact that removals of spoiler tags are seldom challenged. --Tony Sidaway 17:06, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Now we're asked to consider the following:

Before

There are additional considerations for deciding whether to include spoiler tags or not; for example, it is generally redundant to put the tags in sections marked 'Plot' or 'Plot Summary'.

After

There are additional considerations for deciding whether to include spoiler tags or not; make sure to review this guideline in full before making the decision to add or remove the templates.

I object to this because it blatantly ignores the history of spoiler tag removal. Nearly every single time a spoiler tag is removed, it stays removed, and this is especially true when the tag had been placed in a "Plot", "Synopsis" or similar section. If there was a history of editors arguing that a removed spoiler should be restored, I could understand that this might be a bit of a controversial point.

But no, I don't think we can realistically believe that this change had any basis in experience. Rather, it seems to reflect the opinion of an editor who hangs around on this page but does not involve himself in spoiler-related article edits and does not refer his changes to the history of such edits. What is such an opinion worth? --Tony Sidaway 17:30, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Your impugning the worth of my opinion is uncivil and I respectfully request that you comment on the content of the discussion and not on me as a person.

The reason I have not involved myself in spoiler-related debates on articles is that after reading many of them and testing the waters on a few of them, I decided my limited time would be more useful working on improving the guideline (not "hanging around" as you described it).

The first edit you noted above was not a random removal. It was done by at least three editors separately. It is also being actively discussed on this talk page in the section immediately above this one, in accordance with consensus process.

The second edit was my attempt to avoid reverting and instead add weight of careful consideration of the guideline for editors working on articles.

Regarding what the edit history shows on this topic: it does not imply consensus to that statement in the guideline that that removal of the spoiler notices from plot sections was not strongly contested, since the removals were based on this guideline that does not have consensus. That's circular reasoning, as has been stated in this discussion by others several times. The article editors who saw the guideline used as a basis for the removals had no way to know that the guideline was not stable or supported by clear consensus, so they "obeyed the rules" and backed down.

That sentence you quoted at the top of your post here does not have consensus for inclusion in the guideline. There is no consensus that plot sections and spoiler notices are redundant. Many editors and active participants on this page do not agree with that statement. That's why other editors removed that sentence as well. As you have said yourself on this page, consensus is required. Until/unless consensus for that sentence is found here, that text should not be part of the guideline. --Parsifal _Hello 17:49, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

We seem to have entered a new era, with members of the pro-spoiler-tag set just making random edits to long-standing passages in the guideline, to see what they can sneak in. Obviously WP:BOLD in a sense permits this, but such changes are likely to be quickly reverted. Marc Shepherd 17:53, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

• The edits are not random, they are thoughtful, and they are addressed to elements that do not have consensus. That's according to policy.

• There is no trying to sneak in changes. Obviously, we're all aware that every change will be immediately noticed and reverted. But a few people reverting every change is not consensus.

• Since the page does not have consensus, it's correct to modify it until it does, that's also according to policy. The ratio of discussion to editing on this guideline is absolutely huge. With so much discussion, a bit of editing seems welcome and appropriate.

• long-standing passages do not have more authority just because they've not been changed for a while. Consensus conveys the authority, not time. You know the "consensus can change" page, I don't need to link it for you.

• Please leave off the emotionally charged accusations of "sneaking" and "random" edits, or , implying that people who don't agree with you are not just as sincere as you are about improving Misplaced Pages. Just because we don't agree doesn't mean we should use impolite language when we discuss the issues. "Sneaking" implies that the person needs to hide because they're doing something wrong. That's simply not accurate, and not a polite way to collaborate. --Parsifal _Hello 18:19, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I call those edits "random," because any reader of this page would know that there is likely no consensus for them. Now, I realize that some people believe there's no consensus for the current guideline either. But a change from one bad version to another bad version is no improvement. The only pattern I've seen in the last couple of months of debate is that any suggestion is instantly shouted down. No sincere suggestion gains traction, regardless of which side it comes from. So the new approach is to just boldly change the guideline without discussion, to see what sticks. I can't say I blame you, as those actually try to gain consensus first are inevitably rebuffed. Marc Shepherd 19:22, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

And any reader of this page knows that that particular sentence is under debate. It's under debate one section above this one. Scroll up literally one section. Yet if we try to edit it, here comes Tony with his "indisputable", with his "randomly lop some text out of the guideline", with his "What is such an opinion worth?". I swear to god, Tony, if you don't stop making smart-ass personal attacks against everyone who touches your precious guideline I'll haul your ass before the appropriate channels. Calm down, and stop trying to micro-manage every word that you disagree with, and Marc, chill out as well before you become just as bad as he is. There's more to wikipedia than this guideline; if other people editing shit bothers you that much, maybe you should see if some other encyclopedia is hiring. Kuronue | Talk 20:14, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

The "haul your ass before the appropriate channels" approach has, I believe, already been tried and got nowhere. Marc Shepherd 20:31, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

...an editor who hangs around on this page but does not involve himself in spoiler-related article edits. That's because they'll get banned. People aren't going to fall into that trap again.--Nydas 20:34, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

blah blah blah big scary anti-spoiler people who pick on the poor little pro-spoiler people who just want to make things good for the common good. blah blah blah. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 20:49, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Clearly, there is consensus for the changes to the guideline. Team Anti-Spoiler should learn the difference between consensus and unanimity.--YellowTapedR 02:26, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

What consensus do you think you see? There may be a majority view that the guideline should be somehow different, but I haven't seen consensus for any particular substantive change. Marc Shepherd 02:33, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Enough filibustering. Consensus is clearly is favor of Parsifal's edits. --YellowTapedR 04:33, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

And what is the basis for this? Marc Shepherd 11:55, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

As I suggested above, the best way to deal with these random edits may be to investigate the history of spoiler tag removal since mid-June. My seat-of-pants feeling on this is that the investigation will show that there is extremely low opposition to such removals, and reverts and discussion on talk pages, while they do happen, are extremely rare. Claims that the current guideline lacks consensus would thus be shown to be fictional by any reasonably comprehensive evidence-gathering exercise. The facts arising, being facts and not just opinions, where significant could be added to the guideline to show that it enjoys very broad de facto consensus indeed. --Tony Sidaway 13:46, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Tony's analysis is spot-on. Most pro-tag editors have consistently resisted all suggestions to provide any kind of empirical analysis or research. As Carl noted, it would also be helpful to have practical examples of where the tags would be worthwhile, but the pro-tag faction seldom offers any.

As far as I can tell, most people on the pro-tag side want a return to the "Wild West," where editors add spoiler tags pretty much wherever they want, without the near-automatic removal that is the case today. No one on the pro-tag side has actually used the term "Wild West," but as none of them has been willing to propose guidelines that would at all limit or guide editors, this is the practical effect of their position. Marc Shepherd 14:12, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

"Wild West" is a bit dramatic, don't you think? The anti-spoiler team also fails to show empirical data other than saying, without backing it up, that no one is reverting, which is false. What you're really trying to do is prevent progress from being made on the guideline by changing the subject. I think a more worthy cause for the people who want to make wikipedia more encyclopedic is to nuke the trivia sections, but that's just me. --YellowTapedR 14:17, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Tony has, on numerous occasions, provided solid empirical data for his comments. He did not say that "no one is reverting." He said that there is "extremely low opposition to such removals." This can easily be seen by the fact that when instances of {{spoiler}} are removed, there is a fairly low incidence of them coming back again.

It's pretty clear that the pre-May standard was a "Wild West" (as far as spoiler tags went), with little consistency or guidance as to their use. If there's a middle ground that the pro-tag editors would favor, I'd like to know what it is. My own proposed compromise was summarily rejected—as, of course, I knew it would be—although it would have resulted in spoiler tags being added to thousands of articles. I'm not offering another one, as at this point I don't really know what the pro-tag faction wants, other than a return to the "Wild West." The pro-tag faction is much better at telling us what they're against, than telling us what they're for.

Now, here's a radical thought. Rather than beating their heads against a wall on this talk page, suppose the pro-tag faction actually chooses a few representative articles and adds spoiler tags in the manner that they believe is correct, then let us all know when they're done. Then we'd actually have something concrete to discuss. If Nydas, Milo, Parsifal, and YellowTapedR, and Koronue each pick 5 articles that are representative of their point of view, we'd then have 25 concrete examples to work with. Marc Shepherd 14:34, 11 September 2007 (UTC)