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Potential problem conerning episode articles

I am not certain if this is our expected behaviour or not however I am bringing this to admin attention anyways:

User seems to be mass merge tagging articles and later redirectifying them. That seems to be the case for the past 5000 edits at least. Is this acceptable behaviour? Are episode articles banned?

-- Cat 21:02, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Individual episode articles aren't banned, but they still have to meet WP:NOTE just like every other article. That is, they don't get a free pass on notability just because their parent show is, if you get my drift. There are currently vast numbers of individual episode articles which could never meet WP:NOTE and thus should be merged into their parent "season" article instead of on their own.
WP:EPISODE lays out the procedure pretty well. Bullzeye 21:07, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

They are not merged. They are blanked/redirectified. WP:EPISODE doesn't require mass merging. And I see no centralized discussion for such a thing anywhere. -- Cat 21:19, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, it kind of does...there's a logical progression here that has to be met. Series, then season, then individual episode. Each one must meet WP:NOTE. A lot of people assume that since multiple independent sources can be found for the series and the season, that means every individual episode deserves it's own page. This is, obviously, not the case. Merging (mass or otherwise) is the appropriate policy-approved way of dealing with a non-notable episode from a notable season (or notable series). Bullzeye 22:13, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

I see no "policy"-approved procedure for this. Guidelines are there to help us write better articles. They are not licenses for deletion without discussion. -- Cat 01:07, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm using merge tags, and waiting for discussion, so yes, it's fine. This has been up here many, many times for when I was being WP:BOLD in redirecting, so it has come down to that. To answer your question, by WP:EPISODE, most episodes have no chance of ever needing to exist. We have somewhere over five thousand episode articles (possibly way more) that need to be taken care of, so that is what I am doing. TTN 21:09, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Your idea of taking care of is removal of over "five thousand" articles without undergoing any deletion procedure. Such AFDs will most likely fail if my experience is any indication. -- Cat 21:19, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you could try something constructive like coming up with a reason that these articles are notable? Otherwise, TNN is just engaging in cleanup. Shell 00:09, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I am uncertain what to say here. What is the metric for notability for episode articles? If all episode articles are to be deleted, I want to see a general discussion for it. Or else someone, if not me, will mass revert the mass merging. -- Cat 01:07, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Under WP:BOLD, he can redirect as he pleases. If people push back, he needs to discuss. There is no special notability for episodes- just the standard form. He should, if people revert, discuss individual groups of articles on the List of Episode page. — i  01:11, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

i disagree. TTN is editing way too fast on tagging and redirecting the episode articles. Being bold is one thing but redirecting an episode without checking if it has sustained its notability is another... TTN, please stop and gain consensus before redirecting any more articles. --D_arkF_alls 01:17, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

There is no way I or anyone can discuss at the rate of his tagging. I would think any show with the cultural impact as 24 to be notable. I do not know what reason is needed to establish notability... Why is Shakespeare's Hamlet notable? Why is any book or movie notable? The idea that a show itself is notable yet none of its episodes are worth a mention simply baffles me. If something is not notable, why is not AFD used? -- Cat 01:23, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Also, the pages are not being merged. "Merge" implies that all or at least some of the content is being moved into the target article; this is not the case, they are just being redirected. For such a large list of articles, there should be some sort of centralized discussion, possibly one discussion per series as to: should they all be merged (some episodes may have notability for specific reasons that others in the same series do not), what content should be merged, etc. I think this is taking WP:BOLD a little too far and bordering on WP:POINT. Mr.Z-man 01:32, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I would agree that this behavior is quite disruptive. Particularly disturbing is the fact that AWB is being used to make controversial edits. IronGargoyle 01:35, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Re:Notability. There has been centralised discussion about the notability of episodes: WP:EPISODE arose out of one such discussion a couple of years ago, and has recently been rediscussed (see WT:EPISODE). The guidelines for establishing notability of fiction articles is undergoing discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:Notability (fiction), and the actual necessity for separate guidelines for fiction is being discussed at Misplaced Pages talk:Notability. As to centralised discussion about the appropriate action to undertake regarding articles which fail the above notability guidelines, then this can be found at the talk pages of WP:TVE and WP:TV-REVIEW, Misplaced Pages talk:Television article review process. If anyone has a concern about any issues about episode articles, regarding notability through to the processes surrounding such articles, then it's probably worth checking out any of those pages and contributing to constructive debate there. Gwinva 01:45, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

WP:EPISODE does not say that this is what to do. It says how to determine if episodes should get articles. This is just mass redirection of episode articles with little or no review. WP:EPISODE does not say whether or not each of the episode articles redirected was notable or not, nor does it say that episodes should not get articles. Mr.Z-man 01:57, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Having just randomly reviewed ten of the most recent thousand edits made by TTN (talk · contribs), all the episode articles I saw generally had zero references and no real world context. Likewise they were chock full of things that WP:EPISODE says to avoid, including trivia sections, quotations, in-universe writing, and extremely detailed plot summary sections. Again, this was only a 1% spot-check, but I did not see any issues with TTN`s clean up work. --Kralizec! (talk) 01:50, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I fail to see why redirecting articles without checking the notability is considered "clean-up work". WP:EPISODE is a guideline on creating new articles, it is by no means a guideline set for deleting articles. WP:NN clearly states that discussion must be present, and that suitable consensus must emerge for the redirection of articles. --D_arkF_alls 02:39, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps I missed something, so please bear with me. Lets take Indian Summer (Dawson's Creek episode), one of the articles in question that I reviewed during my spot-check of TTN`s clean-up work. On August 25th, TTN added a {{mergeto}} tag on the article that included a discussion link to Talk:List of Dawson's Creek episodes#Episode notability. After 34 days, consensus was determined and two days later (36 days after the article was tagged) the episode was merged into the episode list. Reviewing the final, pre-merger version of the article shows it to be a textbook example of what WP:EPISODE says to avoid: quotes, featured music, zero citations, no real world context, and a decorative fair-use image. Looks like a pretty clear cut case of cleanup to me. --Kralizec! (talk) 04:05, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

He also redirected all the episodes in List of 30 Rock episodes, and multiple reviews can be found for every episode. This was discussed and ignored on the talk page. Lots of shows episodes, especially older ones don't have second party information, but some do, and it doesn't seem to effect his redirecting them. - Peregrine Fisher 04:32, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Some of these articles were really bad before he redirected them. That said, regarding the discussion linked to above he closed the debate himself and claimed consensus despite two people disagreeing with him and only Ned Scott agreeing with him. That's not consensus to merge/redirect. As for articles containing trivia the correct approach is to merge that into the rest of the article and then delete the trivia section, not simply to merge/redirect. EconomicsGuy 04:59, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Reviews for episodes does not mean you will have real-world information to place in said articles. As for the reviews themselves, they were somewhat questionable, being from http://tvsquad.com and http://buddytv.com . A consensus does not just include the discussion on the immediate talk page, but also what the community at large had decided about excessive plot summary (WP:PLOT). -- Ned Scott 07:27, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

True but then what is the purpose of starting a debate if the outcome is predetermined per consensus on WP:PLOT? I'm neither jumping on his back nor am I disputing that most of these articles were bad. What I'm disputing is the way he did this. If he was going to be truly bold he could have redirected without wasting other editor's time with futile debates the outcome of which he was just going to ignore anyway. What is the purpose of tagging so many articles using AWB when the debates were futile and the obvious outcome was to redirect rather than merge? EconomicsGuy 07:52, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

When you have a group of artilces, of which say 10%, 20% or 50% can have their notability established, do we have any guidelines on how they should be dealt with. Is summary redirection based on BOLDness the correct way to deal with this? - Peregrine Fisher 03:14, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

And before more people jump on TTN's back, I'd like to point out that he has yielded to past requests, taking more time with these issues, giving fair notice, and starting discussion about these redirections before they happen. -- Ned Scott 07:33, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

• Has anyone asked the relevant TV-related wikiprojects what their opinion is on this issue? >Radiant< 11:55, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
  • That would be Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Television/Episode coverage, a Task Force in WikiProject Television. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 12:24, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Ignore me if someone else has said this, but TTN is not deleting anything, since the episode articles remain in the revision history. I don't believe s/he's an administrator, so s/he isn't actually capable of deleting anything. Merging is a completely acceptable action for anyone to perform on any article they feel it's appropriate, and is in fact suggested as an alternative for deletion (here and here). There is nothing about TV episode articles that makes this any different, and there is no special guideline regarding editing episode articles. WP:EPISODE is only concerned with notability, so beyond that they are subject to all the normal editing rules, including the deletion policy. So this discussion (which should take place somewhere else, since it requires no admin intervention) should take into account the fact that there is no reason episode articles are special or otherwise exempt from the normal rules and practices. Natalie 13:22, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Edit point

Let me reword my original argument since there seems to be a confusion. When an article is low on quality, you improve them. I do not mind several article improvement drives on episode articles. We do not have a deadline so in the course of several years this can lead to multiple good articles. If an article does not immediately have adequate sources, the recommended action as per community approved procedure is written here. In this case that was not attempted. In fact the last three steps were avoided all together. Process is important. There are many low quality articles on wikipedia. Each suffering from valorous problems. Unless an article suffers from an urgent problem such as WP:BLP it is almost never blanked. Blanking is a last resort not the first.

Usage of {{merge}} is entirely improper as nothing is ever merged as a result. I also observe that all these mass merging is preformed by a specific group of editors that impose their consensus to the "local" people working on the articles. An imposed consensus is no consensus by very nature. Some of these users have no other contribution.

The WP:EPISODE guideline was drafted to help guide editors to better write articles and was a decent resource if used for this purpose (I am not madly in love with it mind you). While the guideline was never community approved (no community wide discussion), I think it was adequately worded on the 16 April 2007 version. Between then and 26 September 2007 article underwent a major rewrite, based on what I do not know. It was originally a MOS guideline (and should have stayed that way) and now is been turned into a notability guideline . I am uncertain if there was an extensive discussion by the community as a whole for this abrupt and extensive change. I see no evidence of it. Guidelines and policies are not written by an elite group of people but are derived out of a consensus from the entire Misplaced Pages community as a whole.

-- Cat 18:06, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

When an article is low on quality, you improve it. When there are hundreds or thousands of articles on very similar subjects (like TV episodes), all with the same problems, all for a long time, you merge them. Nothing is lost, and we get a lot closer to following our content policies (WP:NOT, WP:V) and guidelines. I have redirected episode articles the day they were created, without discussion, as people felt the need to create articles for episodes that wouldn't be aired for two months.... The problem here is not that these stub articles should get more time, but that less of these should be created in the first place. When someone is willing and able to make a better article, with out-of-universe content and reliable independent sources, then the merge can be very easily undone. Until then, these articles are only bad examples for new editors. Fram 19:48, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

From where are you getting the idea that merging is never appropriate? I note that the very page you linked suggests "if appropriate sources cannot be found, if possible, merge the article into a broader article providing context." The notability policy, which has been derived out of consensus by the community as a whole, is the policy by which these articles are being merged. I would also like to underscore Fram's point by noting that the sky is not falling and all of these articles can be retrieved by anyone, since they are not being deleted. Natalie 20:17, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

See, I think what we have here is a breakdown of communication all around. In my mind, at least, the problem isn't necessarily that these articles shouldn't be merged; it's that what TTN is doing is not merging them. Merging implies that information from the article being eliminated is incorporated into the article it's being merged into. TTN's standard practice seems to be to simply redirect articles en masse without any effort to incorporate the information into the article he redirects to. I've noted a similar modus operandi by other people who have been redirecting many articles while citing WP:FICTION as a reason, and think that there may be a need to clarify this point, since we end up with people angrily editing and creating lots of AN/I and AIV reports as a result. Rdfox 76 21:59, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I think that's the point exactly: it's only a merge when you actually retain some of the content in the article. Many of TTN's edits have not even vaguely been in line with that statement, and even then regardless of the merits of the actions themselves his (her?) handling of the situation has been "counter-harmonious" to say the least. I understand exactly where White Cat is coming from on this. -- Y|yukichigai (_ramble argue ) 11:37, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

And when there's nothing worth merging, we redirect. So? Fram 15:08, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

TTN has merged over 5000 articles such that none of the content from the individual article was retained in the merged article. Statistically and logically it is impossible that none of those articles had content worth retaining. -- Y|yukichigai (_ramble argue ) 11:31, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

A large number of these articles contained identical or near identical summaries from the List of episodes article. Also, summary is easy to generate, and we have no shortage of editors willing to do it. -- Ned Scott 07:35, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

So what's your argument here? It's okay to completely blank an article because eventually someone else will perform the rest of the merge for you? That's wildly irresponsible, and a crap argument to boot. If TTN is so hard-pressed to merge that many articles then he needs to put in the time to do it properly. Right now he's just wiping out whole swaths of information and dragging the overall quality of Misplaced Pages down, regardless of how "easy" it is to find the original article content in the edit history. -- Y|yukichigai (_ramble argue ) 01:51, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I notice TTN has been noticeably absent from this discussion, yet he continues to redirect articles. I've asked him to comment here. Mr.Z-man 23:10, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

User:TTN has said on his talk page that he will not comment here. Mr.Z-man 00:25, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

There's not much more to say, he's not doing anything wrong. -- Ned Scott 07:35, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Mass removing article content is a problem. Some of these allegedly merged articles contained enough information that disqualifies them from being stubs. So they are "full articles" and not stubs. Altering a guideline and converting it from a "MOS guideline" to a "notability guideline" without adequate discussion is a problem. TTN isn't even willing to discuss the matter which is also a problem. There most certainly is a problem. -- Cat 11:10, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

TTN is even revert waring over his "bold" action despite the lack of consensus. In this case a discussion was overwhelmingly against a merge or let alone a redirectification. was redirectified anyways despite having enough content to disqualify even as stubs. Granted these articles are not featured they aren't stubs either. -- Cat 11:40, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

His priorities--his choice of which articles to modify first--seem very shady for someone not doing anything wrong. In trying to determine what the actual, practiced standard for episode notability is, I looked over the television shows which have featured articles (as I take it those are supposed to set the example for other articles in the category). While I did not look at all of the shows, I looked at enough to realize that virtually every featured article for a television show on wikipedia has a full complement of individual episode articles that contradict TTN's interpretation of the guidelines for notability, but from skimming his extensive edit history, he doesn't seem to have even attempted to apply his modifications to shows with featured articles--other than his very recent (10/4/07) attempts to apply those modifications to The Wire, with its famously small audience--although he has applied many thousands of them to articles with lower traffic.

Although I can see how his interpretation may be valid, it contradicts the example set by most or all featured articles in this category, and I am inclined to respect their combined example over his individual objections. If his interpretation is widely acceptable by wiki standards, then it would be more honest for him to apply it to the featured articles first, and have it demonstrated as part of the standard for featured television articles. While I understand his stated objection that he can only modify so many articles at once, it looks like bad faith editing when he attempts to change the de facto standards for the entire category of wikipedia television episodes by altering all of the articles with low readership first, and intentionally flying under the radar of the featured articles with high traffic.

He has also stated explicity that he will sneak in "silly messages" on low-traffic talk pages to prove a point, something wikipedia seems to expressly discourage. Apparently it's an official wiki policy that the number of people interested in a subject does not in and of itself constitute noteworthiness, contrary to TTN's own guidelines for modifying or deleting these articles. The more I look at his history, the closer it seems to systemic vandalism and selective modification of articles where he believes he can get away with it (as shown by his "testing the waters" with silly messages to see if anyone will revert them), rather than trying to apply criteria uniformly across the entire category of articles. Wiki describes bad faith editing as "deliberate disruption just to prove a point, playing games with policies, and vandalism", and TTN's modifications seem to be edging very close to this precise description, although I have the impression that he believes these practices are constructive when he's doing them. --24.90.146.245 11:13, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Indeed there certainly is a problem. -- Cat 11:42, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

TTN has stated on his own talkpage in a discussion regarding WP:FICT that he doesn't see much chance of being able to pull off his redirection-without-merging and "discussion is unnecessary, consensus is unnecessary" tricks on high-traffic topics. He specifically says that he plans to mostly stick with "picking off smaller ones," because he feels that "once the weaklings are fully gone, it'll probably get easier to deal with the larger ones." The way I read it, it appears to me that he's trying to establish a precedent of eliminating episode and character articles by working "under the radar" on lower-traffic topics before attempting to do anything to the ones that would attract a lot of attention. Looking through his talkpage archives, I also see dozens of comments and complaints per month about his method of indiscriminately mass-redirecting episode and character articles to lists without any discussion or even an explanation in the edit summary, including ones from before WP:FICT went into effect. I don't know how often he's gotten warning templates put up as a result, because he has a habit of deleting them, and digging through the history to find them is enough of an annoyance that I didn't try it today. Rdfox 76 15:30, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm missing something... how exactly does TTN have special authority to decide how the standards will be applied, and enforce his decision over any and all objections? I understand that he thinks his application of the notability guidelines is valid, but it is obviously not accepted practice. He demonstrates his awareness of this by avoiding the most popular shows, for instance generously decreeing that all the Simpsons articles can stay, because "they have proven themselves with a few featured articles and around thirty good articles". I don't know how the notability of several articles in a category gives automatic notability to the others, but if anyone can see the hidden sense in that, I'd like to hear it. It sounds more like an excuse to avoid articles where he knows he won't be able to unilaterally enforce his own vision of what wiki should be. If he doesn't need consensus to enforce whatever interpretation he pleases, then does anyone else need consensus to revert his changes wholesale (much as he applies them wholesale to begin with)? And at what point can it be blocked as vandalism, since apparently he is engaging in revert wars in the process? --F.dolarhyde 15:59, 4 October 2007 (UTC) This template must be substituted.

After having looked further into the issue, there are several things I want to underline. I can see how TTN feels his interpretation is backed up by the guidelines, but it would be much less offensive, less destructive (fewer people would spend days and weeks typing up information that will only be discarded), and less devious, if: 1) TTN weren't taking it on as his sole responsibility and mission to bulldoze through thousands of lower-traffic articles, but was backed up by other notable contributors sharing this duty; and especially 2) it were applied to the highest profile articles FIRST, not after he's wiped out the pages for hundreds of less-popular series.

If I'm a new user, unfamiliar with TTN, and I want to create a set of articles for a new series; I'm going to read the guidelines, and then look at the featured, high-profile shows to see an example and confirmation of how to construct accepted articles for a television series. If I see that they avoid creating articles for most individual episodes, I'll think twice before doing that for a new show. But what I actually see now, is that they nearly ALL have articles for each individual episode, and that nobody is putting "merge for lack of notability" warnings on most of them. As a new user I'm not likely to go look up one of the several hundred obscure anime series that TTN has seen fit to reshape to his idea of the notability standards; I'll look at the highest-profile series for examples. I may then spend weeks typing up information for individual episodes, thinking that it's in line with the approved, featured, high-traffic show articles, and then have him come along with his back-door bulldozer and wipe most of it out.

This practice creates an unwelcoming (if not outright hostile) environment for new contributors, and without good cause. His talk page shows many dozens, possibly even hundreds, of users he's discouraged by his way of going about this--several who have entirely abandoned wikipedia as a consequence. If he's as sure of his version of the notability guidelines as he claims to be, and does not intend to harm the site in the process, then the high profile articles--which serve as role models for new articles--need to be retrofit first, before the countless deletions he's applying to lesser-known articles.

This would serve both as a good test of whether his reading of the guidelines is a sustainable practice, and serve to spare new contributors: from working hard at finding, creating and contributing content in good faith that will mostly be swept away by his interpretation of the guidelines. The only argument in favor of his doing the low-traffic shows first is that it's easier for him to get away with unpopular changes, even at the cost of substantially damaging the "good faith" of this subset of the wiki userbase. Rather than show any compromise or respect for the community that has created all of these pages, his talk pages show something close to an eagerness to spite most of those creators en masse. It may be a rewarding power trip for him to single-handedly reshape the face of WikiProject Television from underneath; it would be much less destructive for the contributors (and would generate much less destructive ill-will and mistrust in the community) if he joined with notable contributors who share his views on fiction guidelines, and together they approached these changes head-on, starting with the highest traffic articles, where everyone can be aware of the changes from the top down. --F.dolarhyde 17:46, 4 October 2007 (UTC) This template must be substituted.

WP:NOT#PLOT is an official policy. WP:EPISODE is a derived guideline backed up by consensus. User:TTN enforces both. If he took all episdes that do not assert notability to AfD, fans would scream bloody murder for not following WP:FICT ("Non-notable information should be deleted only when other options have been exhausted"), and those AfDs usually end in no consensus or keep anyway because there are enough fans to outvote the PLOT policy. Tagging all nn episodes results in complaints about his behaviour at ANI. Going for the "small" shows first to evade major fan outcries (that would again outvote the policy) results in accuses of POINTy and biased behavior. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, I'd say. Fans who really care about their TV shows should spend their time in establishing notability and create real world content, maybe write a good episode article, but not create excessive plot summaries. The redirects allow fan-editors to recreate articles with their notability asserted in the case they can. If I had more time and weren't that thin-skinned, I'd support the enforcement of WP:EPISODE much more than I already do. – sgeureka 14:09, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

"when other options have been exhausted"... Which any other option is even attempted? Yes that is right none. Mass redirection is unhelpful. The more productive way to deal with poor quality articles are through article improvement drives. How many have been attempted on the episode articles before the merge (not merge in actuality mass-redirectification)? I find it hard to swallow that all of the episodes of the 24 TV series is automatically non-notable. All movies are automatically notable even if they haven't even been produced yet, why are episodes of TV shows that aired internationally for multiple seasons automatically "non-notable"? More people watched them than theater movies so they received a greater reception by simple logic. This mass redirectification based on how "lowly" fans are is disruptive. It is not in line with WP:FICT at all. -- Cat 18:45, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Also with your approach we would not have any intermediate steps between a featured/good article and a stub. -- Cat 12:04, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

It seems you're confusing wiki-notability with real-world notability. Wiki-notability is established by reliable sources. As far as I can see, TNN gave fans several weeks to find third-party reliable sources for any episode. If they can't or won't do that for at least one episode, that's a pretty good sign that (1) no such sources exist, making the episodes non-notable by wiki-standards, or (2) no-one cares to improve the articles in the immediate future to establish notability. In both cases, "other options have been exhausted," allowing deletion. But the articles aren't deleted, they only get redirected. And you're right, movies (exactly like most TV shows and books) are notable, so they get an article. But not every act of a movie gets an article. Not every chapter of a book gets an article. And not every episode gets an article, unless wiki-notability has been established. – sgeureka 01:09, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I am not confusing anything. Notability isn't temporary and if something is notable in real-world, it most certainly is notable here. Every article on wikipedia starts out as a stub. What you are doing is banning stub articles on fiction.

As for your point number one: how do you know weather or not they exist in all of the 5000+ articles that were mass removed. They might not exist right now but they might be added in an article improvement drive. We do not have a WP:DEADLINE.

As for your point number two: that attitude isn't how wikipedia articles are written. With that rationale all stub and start class articles would need to be removed.

Every chapter of a book and every TV episode is not the same thing. TV episodes also have acts and arts. A TV episode or two occupies the same time span as a movie. It is a series of movies. When you add up every episode of a TV show they almost always add up to something much much longer than an average movie.

Why should each individual harry potter book get an article? Because it is a series of books. Or how about Star Trek movies? Why should the episode articles be destroyed when there are eleven movie articles? Even Tribble gets an article. I see no requirement to mass merge TV episodes in general into one article.

Then you start asking the questions "What makes the list notable if the contents of the list is non-notable?" or "What makes the show notable if it's episodes aren't notable".

-- Cat 10:00, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm (currently) not banning anything, especially where I see merits. Having dozens and hundreds of episode articles without established notability for long times however looks like "having no merrits". If I have the wrong impression in a case (we're all human), prove it by establishing notability and the case shall rest in your favor. The suggested improvement drives can only improve an article if there are sources to begin with, but those don't seem to exist. Again, if you think they exist, prove it.

TV episodes obviously have about the same consumption length as movies and books, but they are doled out in a much higher frequency. It takes about half a year to make a movie; it takes about a year to write a good book; it takes an average of about two or three weeks (1 year divided by 20 episodes, disregarding the pipeline time) to produce a TV episode. Remember, an encyclopedia focuses on the production of a piece of art, and there is obviously much more secondary information available for a work that took longer to produce. So comparing of TV episodes to acts of movies or chapters of books holds up much better than comparing them to movies and books directly.

Besides, (this may be a case of differing opinions, but Misplaced Pages:Notability (fiction) happens to agree), subjects should IMO grow from within. If there is enough (sourced!) material and encyclopedic treatment, info may be split out into subarticles. Creating dozens of stubby subarticles in the hope that reliable third-party sources exist somewhere is not the way (Top-down and bottom-up design) – summarizing the information in a list until it can be broken out is much better for encyclopedic coverage in the long term. – sgeureka 22:46, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

As an example of the overzealous attempts at enforcing WP:EPISODE that TTN is carrying out, see the discussion of his recent merge-tagging of Category:Kim Possible Episodes in its entirety, with his immediately shooting down any attempt to justify any particular episode's existence. Note that some of these episodes first aired as recently as three weeks ago, yet he's claiming that the episodes will "never" manage to be able to demonstrate notability, regardless of how much work is put into them. Rdfox 76 13:04, 6 October 2007 (UTC) Edited to fix my screwup that resulted in no link to the category, and ANI being miscategorized at a KP episode. Whoopsie! Rdfox 76 13:40, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Randomly surveying twenty of the articles in that category:

• None of them had any third-party references (eighteen of them had no references whatsoever).
• None of them had any real-world information (barring trivia)
• All of them were composed of plot summary, trivia, quotations, or some combination thereof.

Forget merge tagging; If I had the time/effort/tools/patience to deal with inclusionists, I would have merged all of them on sight. If you want to help out, just type up paragraph summaries for each episode and stick them on the episode list, as is the step recommended before splitting into individual episode articles. That was half of the point of the merge tags. TTN is doing nothing wrong in terms of merge tagging and redirection. Just like Durin and his crusade against nonfree images, TTN is simply enforcing poorly-enacted Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines on a massive scale and getting loads of crap for it. There might be something to say about his unwillingness to discuss, but that's about it. You Can't See Me! 02:36, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

We do not immediately delete articles without sources. If that is an argument all stubs must be deleted right away. Also articles like James C. Jones should also go. As for the guidelines as demonstrated above, they never had any consensus for such an alteration to begin with (Sure I can alter any MOS guideline to a Notability guideline and butcher an entire topic of my choice). It is simply an article development procedure. Please do not complicate this exclusively for fiction related topics. -- Cat 10:00, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

You can't compare the deletion of images with the deletion of articles, You Can't See Me. With "Durin's crusade" against unfree images, these images will have severe copyright problems if they are left unattended by admins. With articles, the same implication doesn't apply and needs suitable consensus before deletion. TTN is redirecting articles without consensus. The process of finding lack of notability is illustrated at Misplaced Pages:Notability#Articles_not_satisfying_the_notability_guidelines, and TTN is not trying to find sources for the articles, merely redirecting. --D_arkF_alls 10:42, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't necessary agree with the approach and rate that TTN is tackling these articles, but there is fair-use concerns (among other issues) with excessive plot information; yes, it's not as strong as the need to protect WP from non-free images, but it does exist (see WP:WAF#Fair use). There is timeliness needed for non-free images as by April 2008, WP's board has stated they all must be tagged with rationale, or be deleted. There is no such timeliness for plot descriptions, but still, the less time they spend in such a state, the better. --MASEM 17:03, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

TTN is also failing to follow the rules set out in WP:FICT and WP:EPISODE for dealing with non-notable episode articles. He does not bother with the {{Notability|episode}} templates, nor does he actually merge the articles he tags for merging after asking one of his preferred admins to close the discussions, he merely redirects the articles en masse without any merging of information from the article or transwiki-ing the material to either the Annex or a specialty Wiki. He also asserts that the implementation of WP:FICT and WP:EPISODE constitutes a "larger consensus" that automatically overrules any objecting consensus that may be developed on article discussion pages, thus making it impossible to defend any article that may actually be a stub--or possibly passing the notability requirements--as inappropriate to merge or redirect, thus completely ignoring both WP:IAR and the facts that consensus can change and that contrary opinions need to be considered in building it. WP:CCC particularly applies; the first I had heard WP:FICT and WP:EPISODE came after they had already been implemented. I don't see any links in the current new-user welcome templates (or the policy articles to which they link!) to the locations where such policies are discussed and developed; I suspect that, like me, many Wiki editors don't even know where you would look to find out about impending policy changes, much less contribute to discussion about them. How can a true consensus on the issue be gained if most of the userbase doesn't know where to look to participate? Rdfox 76 15:43, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

WP:EPISODE does not have a "large consensus" or any consensus behind it as a notability guideline. It should be reverted back in being a MOS guideline. If an episode notability guideline is necesary, that can be drafted separately and be put into use if it receives approval from the community (everybody, by that I don't mean a 'select' group of users). -- Cat 16:46, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

No, TTN is not merging the articles, but he is not deleting them; he is redirecting them. Furthermore, he is not redirecting them on sight: he is slapping merge tags on them. That should give the regulars at those articles the following message: clean up or merge, because this article isn't looking too good. I don't believe any single person would have the time to strip down every episode article to its bare essentials; it takes a taskforce to do that. So rather than waiting, TTN just redirected the articles. Rather than complaining that he's not merging, merge them yourself. Also, if you think that WP:EPISODE does not have large consensus, then go change it. If it does not have consensus, you'll get away with it. If you get reverted quickly and repeatedly by different editors, then it does have large consensus. There's no point in saying, however, that it does not have large consensus without testing it. You Can't See Me! 21:35, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

A close look at TTN's redirects demonstrates that they are less "careful examination and assessment" and more "slap a tag on hundreds of articles, ignore any objections, and redirect anyways." As others have mentioned, there is no effort whatsoever to actually do any work to merge. None. Zero. Zip. If you question this, the automatic reply is that there is nothing of value, or that you're just a fan of the series who doesn't know any better. Talk pages get a boilerplate statement that demonstrates TTN hasn't actually read through the pages. There are also numerous examples of mistakes from the rapid-fire approach, including this tagging of an article about an entire series, and these incorrect redirects to a disambiguation page - which then have to be fixed by other editors. In fact, the overall attitude seems to be "somebody else can clean up after me". --Ckatz_spy 07:20, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to note, as the most recent example I've seen of this attitude of "I'll just zap 'em all, and someone else can handle tidying up all the problems it leaves behind later," his most recent comment on Talk:List of Kim Possible episodes. For those who don't want to check the link themselves, the short version is that, after several people spent a couple of days bashing their heads against the wall trying to get him to work with them, I found out that there actually is already a KP Wiki, and recommended, as WP:FICT suggests, transwiki-ing the disputed articles over there, redirecting only AFTER the transwiki process is completed. TTN's response was, "That can be done over time by the interested editors. It's easy to take information from redirects, so that won't be a problem." He has yet to respond to the questions posed about that reply--in particular, my asking why, when WP:FICT says to transwiki BEFORE redirecting, he feels that the articles should be redirected to the list page first, then transwikied. Rdfox 76 15:00, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

You expect any human being or the wikipedia community as a whole have the capability to deal with the speed of his tagging. Are you seriously suggesting that he has attempted improving all 5000+ of the articles before he has tagged them? How much effort do you think he spent per article? And mind you we are only looking at TTN's edits. There are others who are also mass tagging pages and later rectifying.

What is the rush? The WP:DEADLINE? If this is acceptable behaviour, why do we need TTN or others for all for this? A bot can mass redirectify pages more efficiently if there is a general ban on character and episode articles. His actions aren't even in line with the policies/guidelines he is allegedly enforcing.

-- Cat 14:40, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

At least TTN has started to bother with merge-tagging articles before he mass-redirects them, even if he's not using the notability tags that are supposed to be used before a merge proposal. I've seen other users, such as User:The Prince of Darkness, who just do the mass redirect without any warning. I can understand the desire to reduce the amount of articles about fiction on Misplaced Pages, but I have serious problems with the methods being used to do so, including unwarned mass-redirects; changes of MOS guidelines to general guidelines with little fanfare; a liberal dose of Wikilawyering; and a general unwillingness, on the part of those carrying out the campaign, to discuss, compromise, form consensus, or even consider other points of view. Rdfox 76 15:00, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

User:Timeshift9 trying to "out" User:Prester John

User:Timeshift9 is repeatedly trying to reveal or "out" what he believes is the real world identity of User:Prester John. The latest example is here.

This transgression and his repeated personal attacks such as this and this should earn him a long wikipedia vacation. Prester John 00:49, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Politely but very firmly warned. For the sake of symmetry I'll keep an occasional eye on your own behavior as well, which a quick check suggests has been somewhat less than exemplary. Raymond Arritt 01:22, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

PJ has had a long history of firm trolling, and going by his userpage userboxes is totally here to troll. He advocates one position, then totally contradicts with another. I will not make the observations I made above again, but in the same token I make no apologies for having done so. Timeshift 01:28, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

How is this above comment acceptable? on the ANI no less! This user really needs to be blocked, his incivility is quite astounding. Prester John 02:34, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

It's acceptable to me. Your own trolling behaviors have been the subject of previous AN/I threads. I see above a lack of particular repentance, but acknowledgement that futher behaviors will result in big trouble, and an agreement to stop. ThuranX 02:41, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Further, After commenting here and a few other edits, I went to Recent Changes to watch for vandals, and I found this: ], wherein Prester John is engaged in that same sort of problematic editing referenced about. ThuranX 03:00, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for noticing that, Thuranx. Can another editor politely remind this aggressive fellow Prester John that my talkpage is my talkpage (not his), that he has no right to persistently revert his trollish comments on my talkpage, that he can engage in content debates on the article talkpage, and if he wants people to be respectful to him as an editor that he needs to start behaving respectfully (for example, see this shocking pre-emptive strike against me personally). --Brendan Lloyd 06:50, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Wow, just look at that history. Prester John is well into harassment territory on your page, and I've given him a serious warning. Bishonen | talk 09:08, 1 October 2007 (UTC).

And now, he's removing legitimate warnings from his talk page... Nwwaew2 (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me)(public computer) 11:19, 2 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nwwaew2 (talk • contribs)

Some of the userboxes on his user page are downright problematic, too. Orderinchaos 16:53, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

More on Prester John

Prester John has a history of being an uncivil edit-warrior. Please see his block log, in which he was recently blocked. Also, "Leftist scum". I have tried several times to add that link to User:Prester_John/slideshow, but he has reverted me. Is that slideshow page appropriate, as its only purpose is to insult other users?--71.141.106.98 17:10, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Continued Incivility...I find it unusual that someone like 'Prester John' would complain about others' incivility, when he is continually uncivil and has himself previously been blocked for incivility and personal attacks. Prester is famous for leaving snide remarks on article talk pages. However, in recent days I was appalled to see Prester John using the Talk:David_Hicks#Satanic_symbols page to taunt another editor (User:Brendan.lloyd). The practice of taunting is listed as one of the more serious incivility issues, and in this case it has disrupted other editors' ability to use the talk page for legitimate purposes.

'Prester John' filed this ANI report at 00:49 1-October. Prester was warned on this page (that his behaviour is being watched), by admin Raymond Arritt at 01:22. Yet only an hour and a half after that warning, at 02:50, Prester John was clearly harassing User:Brendan.lloyd on Brendan.lloyd's talk page , which continued for some time afterwards.

I'd like the admins to consider the seriousness of taunting and harassment by User:Prester John (both on private and article talk pages), to consider the fact it has continued after an admin warning on behaviour, and also view it in light of the previous history of Prester John, Here and Here. --Lester2 23:09, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

His badgering of User:Brendan.lloyd was plainly over the top and I sincerely regret not having seen that. Checking in occasionally, I had only seen where he went around changing "Makkah" to "Mecca" and the like (which is entirely correct per MoS). I'm not going to block since the incident was a couple of days ago and blocking should be preventive rather than punitive. Since I can't watch this guy all day long, and he's given to serious incivility and badgering, would any other admins care to keep an eye out? Raymond Arritt 01:23, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone here consider this to be a violation of WP:CIVIL? Does categorizing another user's good faith edits as a "drive by" constitute civil discussion? I have never met this user before, so I don't know what provoked such a thing. Can someone explain?--Mostargue 01:02, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Wow, this guy has quite a history.--Mostargue 01:15, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Not being polite is not quite the same as being uncivil. Also being polite or being uncivil does not mean that he's wrong. ---- WebHamster 01:18, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't see what that has to do with anything. The actual discussion that I had with him is irrelevant, I only wanted a third opinion on his tone. Also, WP:CIVIL states "Our code of civility states plainly that people must act with civility toward one another.". I am wondering whether or not calling another user's good faith edits a "drive by" is considered civil. Because according to my interpretation of the term, it refers to a situation in which a person drives a car and shoots at people. That doesn't sound like a very nice analogy.--Mostargue 01:30, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, I believe that using the term "drive-by edit" is not something that is inherently uncivil. It's actually quite a common expression and effectively describes a certain situation quite succinctly. From what I've seen from the discussion and what led up to it, I'd say his usage was contextually accurate. In this instance I don't believe his past (or future) behaviour has any relevance. He didn't call you names, he wasn't foul-mouthed. The worse that could be said was he was a little curt with you but WP:CIVIL doesn't say you have to be sickeningly sweet with everyone you talk to. ---- WebHamster 02:01, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I think it's not any one thing but all things taken in consideration. I hadn't seen much of his behaviour until recently, but his editing at John Howard and David Hicks (a reasonable representation since wannabekate says they're his two most edited) as well as a recent discussion at Talk:Family First Party, and together with the userboxes on his talk page and his edits to Islam-related topics, suggests someone who is not likely any time soon to be able to edit within Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines on a consistent or meaningful basis. He frequently calls for people to be banned, desysopped (eg this) etc merely for disagreeing with him - yet stridently defends those on his side of the POV fence (witness this one) when they inevitably cop a block for their actions. This and this are also interesting reads for sheer non-AGF. Orderinchaos 01:41, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I would have expected that after 3 days of discussing this, everyone would at least try to be civil, but incivility continues on the Talk:Bill_Heffernan#Climate_Change_.2F_Asian_remark page.--Lester2 03:54, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Sigh! I share the frustrations of Lester and others. Prester John and I recently came to an amicable accord over dissatisfaction with each other's language and edit actions. To see that he has gone to other articles and talkpages, continuing with exactly the same tone and language that he well knows, by now, is uncivil doesn't reassure me that his apology mean't anything other than to avoid collecting yet another critic of his aggressive negative behaviour. Closer scrutiny from admin users would be greatly appreciated. --Brendan Lloyd 04:07, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Note: For OTRS respondants, see this ticket which relates to this discussion somewhat. Having been on the opposite side of content disputes with PJ, I'm not going to answer the ticket or take any action in this discussion, but if anyone wants to (and has access to OTRS) then that link may be of interest. Cheers, Daniel 05:08, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of PJ's attitude, outing another editor is unacceptable. This ANI is starting to turn into a bit of a witchhunt. I agree with the warning given to Timeshift. Outing any editor is just unacceptable. Just because PJ may have an attitude problem and/or edit wars, doesn't mean that he can be outed. If there are geniune problems with PJ, this should be start of a new AN/I or taken to a more appropriate forum. Shot info 06:58, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

This AN/I has moved on from the Timeshift issue - that was resolved 2 days ago when he received a warning. There is no indication that he has been "outed" - the allegations are old and have been repeated on other occasions over past months, although I'm not entirely sure from where they originated - i.e. whether PJ raised it himself somewhere or not. That being said, we're on Misplaced Pages, and the key issue here is on-wiki behaviour which is contrary to Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. Orderinchaos 11:39, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

In the 3 days since the warning, 'Prester John' has taunted on the David Hicks talk page, harassed on Brendan's talk page, and been generally uncivil in numerous places. Now he's launched some kind of Misplaced Pages campaign called 'FREE MATT'. He's made a new Userbox for it here-> User:Prester_John/Userbox/Free_Matt. It seems to me to be some kind of campaign to whip up dissent in support of a comrade who was recently blocked from Misplaced Pages. He's sent the Userbox to numerous peoples' talk pages. Judging by the reaction on User_talk:Prester_John#Please_stop, some other Wikipedians have objected to being sent these campaign messages. --Lester2 12:58, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

No, an admin has decided it is his business to interfere in that. No one has complained. Arrow740 01:20, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

What is the status of this section? ThuranX 03:55, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

It was closed. Orderinchaos then removed the "resolved tag" and ethically forgot to inform me, allowing all and sundry to have a nice little gripe about me without giving me the chance to respond. Not that there is much to respond to. Do I respond to the UserKirbytime ip sock that is upset I reverted his changes to my userpage? Do I respond to Orderinchaos who erred in not informing me of his unilateral decision to reopen this case? His misrepresentation that I called for the desyoping of Hesperian because I "disagreed" with him. (I in fact was calling for an apology for calling me a racist. There was no apology so I question his constitution for adminship). Do I address his absurd insinuation that because the "allegations" of my outing have been repeated over the past few months, that "I" somehow raised it myself? Do I address the nonsense of serial edit warmonger Lester2 who would do anything to get me blocked just so he could continue his BLP violating POV pushing slandering of current Australian politicians? Or shall I just wait to see how this hatchet job turns out? Prester John 05:20, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

huh? you complain about someone not going out of their way to give you the opportunity to respond and then sarcastically outline that you are not going to respond... very odd PJ. You're editing across the board is becoming more and more counterproductive to the writing of a good encyclopaedia and the encouragement of people to contribute in good faith. WikiTownsvillian 11:16, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Incidentally I removed the resolved tag after most of the discussion above - merely because it seemed to no longer correctly describe the route that the discussion had taken. It was more an acknowledgement of events on the ground, as it would have been puzzling to some that an ongoing discussion had a "resolved" tag on it. Also, the "allegations" bit has been misunderstood - a claim was made about your real-world identity, and I had no wish to repeat the claim. My argument on that was only that one is only "outed" if the claim is true, and as the claim has not been established as either true nor false, it remains an allegation. (I would also argue that even if true, more info would have needed to be released to qualify.) That being said, I strongly agree with the warning - that is not the level at which we should be conducting debates on Misplaced Pages. Orderinchaos 03:38, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Orderinchaos, you have not addressed why you removed the resolved tag, and then failed to inform the party concerned. Does this sound like the actions of an ethical adminstrator? Also, what was the point of speculating where the origin of the outing allegations came from; "i.e. whether PJ raised it himself somewhere or not"? Did you have any evidence at all for this random slander, or were you just "throwing it out there". I would question whether that is admin behaviour as well. Prester John 01:15, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

stop trying to distract the conversation with wordplay. You sound so offended anyone could have thought that you were a model wikicitizen! Cheers, WikiTownsvillian 07:06, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Free Matt userbox MfD

I saw that via the Jehochman RFA, and nominated it for deletion. Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:Prester John/Userbox/Free Matt. • Lawrence Cohen 23:34, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I added a notification of this MFD here to ANI, but it was removed here by User:CO. I am re-adding it here, as it is directly relevant to the harassment of Elonka and Jehochman. the Userbox appears to be a response to this old ANI thread where this user is blocked for harassment. Two other userboxes this person made before were deleted for being inflammatory: User:Prester John/Userbox/Hate & User:Prester John/Userbox/Moman. More are located at User:Prester John/Userbox. If it's significant, this happened a long time after I posted it and he left me note about that removal. • Lawrence Cohen 05:41, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Religious Hatred: Those prior Prester John userboxes that Admins deleted in May, were the cause of religious flamewars among Wikipedians. See this prior ANi for one case of a Wikipedian who tried to retaliate after being baited by Prester John. I see a disturbing pattern of religious intolerance from Prester John. Here's another ANi involving complaints about Prester John's anti-Muslim edits. Yet the anti-Muslim theme still continues with Prester John's Misplaced Pages activity. Just skim down Prester's edit history and you'll see that 95% of his edits involve articles about Muslims. You'll notice Prester John editing articles to cast Muslims in a poor light, or praise politicians who have taken a perceived anti-Muslim stance. Even as this current ANi has been taking place in the past few days, let me point out Prester's latest article, and the talk page will explain what's wrong with it. I ask the admins to look at whether this sort of slant is good for Misplaced Pages. --Lester2 13:26, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Please back up claims of "religious hatred" with specific evidence in the form of diffs. Your post borders on incivility and trolling. Arrow740 03:46, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Even though I voted to remove the user box (and, it was intended more as a "probably not the best idea" rather than "delete now, no matter what"), the "Free Matt57" box controversy is getting a whole lot more attention than it deserves. I say we move on. If there are other issues (which you seem to be talking about) then they need to be addressed properly - not here tacked on to the ultimately pointless "Free Matt" user box issue. The whole idea of user boxes is a joke anyway, hence i keep mine to an absolute minimum - just the projects, and no politics. --Merbabu 13:33, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I think it should get a lot more attention. It demonstrates that some admins think that admins' actions should not be disputed by non-admins. That is a very worrying attitude. Arrow740 03:48, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

• Since I blocked Matt, I suppose I should record that I don't object to the userbox and I certainly don't feel offended in any way. Its fair comment imo. Spartaz 20:53, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

edit point

I think the following quote is problematic. It is from User:Prester John.

Of course I am not going to contradict the statement with examples from history and current events... Not because I can't but because that isn't the point of userpages or this page...

-- Cat 21:24, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

If you're going to try to attack someone, you'll have to explain yourself a little better. How is it problematic, exactly? Arrow740 07:20, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Disruption via overzealous copyvio tagging of free images

Videmus Omnia (talk · contribs) whose overall activity on enforcing the free image policy I am not in a position to evaluate, is repeatedly retagging the PD images as copyvios. See Misplaced Pages:Copyright problems/2007 October 4/Images under "PD-UA-images" thread. All official symbols in Ukraine are PD according to the Ukraine's copyright law as elaborated at {{PD-UA-exempt}}. The user claims that the images' being found at some commercial web-site that claims copyright over everything it hosts makes the images non-free despite the user was explained that an exact reproduction of the pre-existing image does not generate a new valid copyright claim.

What comes next? Someone placing an image of Mona Lisa at his MySpace site with "All rights reserved" disclaimed and forcing us removing the image of the Leonardo's (d. 1519) painting? Someone please help sorting this out. --Irpen 16:32, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Edit-conflicted report by Videmus Omnia

I tagged the following four images (among many others) as copyright violations from http://www.uniforminsignia.net; that website contains an explicit copyright claim at the bottom of all of its pages stating "The information on this page may not be reproduced, republished or mirrored on another webpage or website without written permission from the editors." Irpen (talk · contribs) is repeatedly removing the {{Imagevio}} tags from the image pages, claiming that they are public domain. I'm sure that a public :domain image can be made or obtained from another source, however these particular images are copyrighted by uniforminsignia.net and our use without permission is a violation. I'd appreciate an outside look at this, as I intend to tag another couple of hundred images downloaded from this site as copyvio as well.

Images

• Image:Ukr viceadmiral.gif
• Image:Ukr admiral.gif
• Image:Ukraine VDV branch.gif‎
• Image:Ukraine radiation branch.gif

Thanks - Videmus Omnia 16:35, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

We do not need to obtain the public domain images "from another source". The PD images remain PD no matter where we find them. This has been a long standing view both among the copyright lawyers and in Misplaced Pages. See Mona Lisa example above. Our {{PD-Art}} tag explicitly refers to Bridgeman Art Library v. Corel Corp. which, as well as Feist Publications v. Rural Telephone Service, is a must read for everyone who goes out to an image copyright patrol. It is a pity that even the self-appointed image patroller did not bother to study the copyright-related issues before going out of his way to enforce his view on the copyrights. --Irpen 16:43, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

My understanding is that anyone can take a public-domain work, modify and/or improve it, and then re-license it under copyright. That appears to be what this website has done. Videmus Omnia 16:48, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

These images may not be public domain themselves. If they were made from scratch in the likeness of a public domain image, I believe the copyright belongs to the image maker. For example, the US flag is a public domain image, but a photograph of a Jasper Johns painting of a US flag is probably copywritten. - Crockspot 16:50, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

A photograph/scan/other reproduction of a two-dimensional work is deemed to have insufficient creative input to be worthy of copyright. A photograph of a Jasper Johns painting has no copyright protection; the original painting does, but the photo has no additional protection. If the artist were Leonardo da Vinci, or someone else dead for a hundred years, there would be no copyright whatsoever. Which seems not to prevent websites from insisting that their .jpg of the Mona Lisa is "copyrighted" and can't be used without the website's permission. - Nunh-huh 17:02, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Jasper Johns' painting is not an exact replica of the flag. It contains a good deal of originality via presenting the painter's view and creativity. The images at the web-site, however, are nothing but generic replicas with no originality whatsoever. --Irpen 16:53, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I think it would be reasonable to get an opinion from Mike Godwin about that question. In any case, we have several people who could make high-quality SVG images from scratch to illustrate these things. — Carl (CBM · talk) 16:55, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

It appears to me that uniforminsignia.net created these images themselves, using official descriptions of the insignia, rather like coats-of-arms. They don't seem to have scanned actual insignias, so Bridgeman doesn't apply. Is uniforminsignia.net's claim of copyright valid? I don't know. A judge could rule that the amount of creative, original work in their gifs is de minimus, and they therefore have no enforceable claim to copyright. Or he could rule that the copyright is valid. That's a chance the Foundation would have to take, since it would be the Foundation who gets sued, not you or me. In this case, uniforminsignia.net is clearly claiming copyright, and it's entirely plausible that their claim could hold up, and it would be relatively easy to recreate the images in a way that is unambiguously free. When it comes to putting my own butt on the line, I can choose to play it safe or I can choose to be gutsy. But when it's someone else's butt on the line, it's no virtue to be so cocksure. It's safer to recreate them, so that (in my opinion) is what we should do. – Quadell 16:56, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

And why exactly "several users" have to put aside time to recreate a yet another version of a PD-image. Because Videmus Omnia does not understand the copyright concept? Not good enough a reason for me. Mike and the foundation repeatedly refused to step in similar debates and I see no reason why the would make an exception. I would welcome if they do, though. We have very clear Misplaced Pages precedents, in fact every "PD-Art" image is a precedent.

It is important to keep in mind though, that indeed not all military insignia is PD. It depends on the national laws and some may be copyrighted by respective governments (not in Ukraine though). But no national symbol gets magically copyrighted by an arbitrary person who places it on his/her unaffiliated web-site. --Irpen 17:03, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

• The copyright claim on that website appears to be a blanket one, covering everything even if it shouldn't. In other words, the website maintainers might put public domain stuff up there, but they aren't going to make the effort to modify their blanket copyright statement to say "oh, except for the public domain stuff we have used, you'll have to work out for yourself which bits those are". Blanket copyright statements are depressingly common, but it requires judgement to work out exactly what they are applying to. Assuming it applies to everything on a website is a very narrow and blinkered (if easy) option. Carcharoth 17:06, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
  • I understand that, but in this case it appears that the website created their versions of the insignia from scratch (certainly nobody has shown anything to dispute that), which leads me to believe that their claim could be valid in this case. Can anyone point to a source that this website could have taken the insignia from? Videmus Omnia 17:09, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

The point is that it does not matter! The Ukrainian law states that the Ukrainian military insignia is not copyrightable. Whether the image is jpeg, gif, png or a paper-copy, it reproduces the non-copyrigtable intellectual property. If they created the calligraphic artistic work based on the insignia, there would have been a copyright on the modification. But they state themselves that all those images show are the insignia itself. In Ukraine the insignia is PD. They may also claim a vlaid copyright on the "arrangement" and "collection" of the images, just like the art albums do. But art-albums by claiming such copyrights in no way overtake the copyright claim of the painting themselves that they depict. --Irpen 17:17, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

A judge might agree with you, Irpen. Or he might not. And I don't think you or I should intentionally provoke a copyright dispute between Misplaced Pages and another party, when it would not be difficult to recreate these. If uniforminsignia.net were not explicitly claiming copyright, I might feel differently, but by using these images we're putting Wikimedia at legal risk for no good reason. – Quadell 17:56, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the points that Quadell has made. Whether or not the website's copyright claims are valid, the website is certainly making those claims. Misplaced Pages's policy on image copyright is generally to play safe when in doubt. By the way, if the images really are PD, and that website just found them somewhere, reproduced them, and claimed copyright, can't we find them somewhere other than on that site, reupload them, and claim PD? ElinorD (talk) 17:50, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

We are not mindless machines here. We should use our brains to a reasonable degree. If I happen to find the image of Mona Lisa with the better resolution at the web-site that makes a blanket copyright claim and the poor thumbnail copy at the web-site which reminds its readers that Leonardo is long since dead, I do not have to use a poor-quality image just because someone makes a patently false copyright claim. Copyright for the military insignia belongs to the governmental bodies which, depending on the country, may be PD, restricted, permission required, etc. Arranging those images in illustrative or informative form in the work about the military insignia may create a copyright claim for an arrangement. But there is nothing anyone can do to start owning the image itself that is free to begin with. Arrangement, collection, artistic collage - yes. The original - no. It is crystal clear. In no way I am able to copy the entire Misplaced Pages to my web-site and claim "all rights reserved" on it. I mean, yes, I can do it by typing "All rights reserved" and clicking the "save" button but by doing so, I will simply make a meaningless claim rather than derail the Misplaced Pages project. --Irpen 18:37, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

The point is that you have no idea whether or not they have altered these images in a sufficient way. If they've drawn up these insignia from descriptions, there's artistic merit there, even if the officially produced ones are public domain. They claim to hold copyright over them, and their claim could hold up in court. Given that we can produce free versions, this seems like a silly point to argue. --Haemo 18:50, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

If they altered the image in any meaningful or artistic way, yes, you would be right. But their own web-sites claims that these are just insignia, clear and simple, and insignia is not copyrighted in Ukraine. --Irpen 19:12, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Insignia, like coats of arms, are subject to creative interpretation. The design is public domain, this is true, along with official versions in some instances, but individual artistic takes on how they are portrayed is different, and can be copyrighted. --Haemo 20:08, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

This is not and artistic take. They do not even attempt to claim this as a "creative interpretation". All there is to it, is the generic image. The mere reproduction of a free image does not generate a new copyright. Read again {{PD-art}}. --Irpen 20:53, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is. The detail and depiction of the elements of a crest or a coat of arms are artistic, and can be copyrighted. For instance, look at version of the Canadian coat of arms] versus the official Canadian government one. --Haemo 21:15, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid I agree with Videmus Omnia here. Bridgeman Art Library v. Corel Corp. says "exact photographic copies". These appear to be hand-drawn (well, computer graphic program drawn) pictures. Not mechanical reproduction without creativity. What exactly is the contention that was copied? Following instructions is not copying. --AnonEMouse 21:39, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

As I read Feist_Publications_v._Rural_Telephone_Service#Implications, works lacking significant creativity fail the test of copyright. As it's already been conceded that these images, if constructed by the website, were exactly according to the descriptions to be identical in information to an image of the item. Per the recipe metaphor, reproducing the enire book, even in your own words, fails it. As this site's entire purpose is to represent exactly the catalog of insignia of a nation, according to the official descrpitions, and to mimic the sewn items, how is there any creativity to judge by? A further example:

This seems little different than following the Revell instructions to the letter. Are you really an artist if you follow them? If you do so carefully, and accurately, you're a good modelbuilder. It would take deliberate variance from the instructions to create your own touches to get far enough away to claim artistry, including, but not limited to- servos in the fuselage to get the rotors and blades to spin, LED systems for timed lights,exceptional research for perfect paint jobs... lacking that extra effort, you're just following instructions.

As such, I think this is best handled by contacting the office. If they choose to NOT comment, then the images stay. If they opt to remove, then do so. This shouldn't be undertaken by 'just any editor/admin', but by those most qualified within the poject to decide, which makes no judgements about Irpen, Omnia, or anyone else debating here. ThuranX 02:32, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

The Office has offered few comments with regards to copyright. They are not trained international copyright lawyers (note that nowhere in the "Mike Godwin" biography does it mention international copyright law). I doubt they will comment on this issue. Most copyright issues on Misplaced Pages and Wikimedia Commons are resolved by editors. I think postponing this issue to wait for comments from the Office would be fruitless (either for or against the deletion of this particular class of imagery). --Iamunknown 05:39, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I am going to redraw the Admiral insignia now. If that image is satisfactory, then I will complete the rest described here. User:Zscout370 19:51, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

How is Image:Ukraine Admiral shoulderboard.svg. User:Zscout370 20:06, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

That looks excellent, Zscout. Thank you for finding a positive solution. (Shouldn't the image page have a little more information so that someone won't come along and add {{nsd}} to it?) ElinorD (talk) 22:11, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I added me as the author of the image, you're welcome to add the URL of that uniform-insignia page as the source image. Anyways, I have dealt with these images before in regards with the US Military Insignia. I managed to replace the images from that site with US Gov't images. It will work differently for each country, but I will suggest to replace images from the website in question as soon as we physically can. User:Zscout370 22:56, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Image:Ukraine Vice Admiral shoulderboard.svg also made. Two down, some more to go. User:Zscout370 23:00, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I think Image:Ukr Rearadmiral.gif may be another one. ElinorD (talk) 23:39, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Image:Ukraine Rear Admiral shoulderboard.svg. User:Zscout370 01:13, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

First some basics to which it is useful to return once we get carrried away into complexities. Misplaced Pages needs to accomplish two things at the same time: being a valuable source of information and being a source of free content. It sometimes happens that on a specific issue these goals are mutually exclusive and enwiki allows fairuse as a compromise of freedom for the sake of maintaining the value of the enwiki as an information source under certain conditions. In this case the compromise does not need to be (and was not) invoked to begin with. The information was free all along.

However, I don't mind replacing one free image by another free image of the similar or better quality. If there are editors willing to sacrifice their time on redrawing images of uniforminsignia.net and releasing them under their own free license, fine with me either way as far as these images are concerned.

But this discussion needs to be settled with some meaningful global outcome since it is unlikely that Zscout would redraw all images from this site used in Misplaced Pages as well as all similarly redrawable images just because some overzealous users misinterpret external copyright claims or take blatantly meaningless claims literally.

BTW, if the original images were copyrighted (which they were not) Zscout cannot redraw them since that would be a derivative work of non-free content. He would need to use the Ukrainian law and draw from scratch. This is just a reminder how little sense this substitution makes except, of course, that they were not copyrighted and Zscout's images are clearly better information-wise.

Nothing can change the basic facts that:

1. a free image remains free
2. the concept of copyright is based not on the skill and amount of work spent by the drawer but on the originality as already decided by courts and the consequences of Bridgeman and Feist are thoroughly ingrained in our policies.
3. the copyright claim on the sum content of something (collection in this case) does not apply to the separate components of that content if they are free to begin with.
4. the copyright claim that is nonsense on the face value (Mona Lisa example above) can and should be ignored if it interferes with the Misplaced Pages's ability to provide the readers with the information as good as we can make it within the copyright law and our policies that are by far stricter than that.

Foundation refused to intervene in by far more contentious a far-reaching copyright debates and it is unlikely to change. If we need to hammer out a separate policy that would address the issue (a-priori free content hosted at sites that make blanket copyright statements) let's do it. But the deletion should be held off until past that point. That said, deleting the images redrawn to a better quality can be done at any time provided the new image is not a derivative work of the copyrighted image. So, is it or not? --Irpen 02:34, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Your entire comment presupposes that they were not copyrighted, and that the copyright claim was invalid. As a number of other editors have pointed out, it's not a clear-cut case; you're basically presuming that the amount of creative content which went into the creation of the images was de minimus when it's not clear that it would be. In cases where we have images which may, or may not, be copyrighted and we can reasonably produce free versions of the images which are not under copyright, then we should produce those free images. Misplaced Pages should be a 💕, and that means that the images we use should not be incumbered by legal claims, no matter how much we disagree with them. If editors, in good faith and good reason, believe that a given copyright claim is not prima facie invalid, then we should take a step back and work on free content instead. --Haemo 02:27, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Even if your supposition made sense (which it does not) the solution you offer makes even less sense. Free images "produced" based on the copyrighted ones is a derivative work and cannot be released under a free license if the original's license is not free. This Catch-22 can only be seen through if we understand (correctly) that there is no copyright in a generic reproduction of a a priori free intellectual property. If it was unfree, Zscout's effort, while a noble one, would remain his wasted time. --Irpen 06:21, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I can assure you it is not wasted effort. Making the base image took about 20 minutes and the other images took about 3 minutes to refine. User:Zscout370 17:05, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

But if you used these "supposedly" non-free (according to some) images to make yours based on them, than your images are derivative work based on non-free content. The only way out of this nonsense is to recognize the freeness of the original ones which they are of course. But then, they should not be deleted in any case except if a better quality replacement is made. The replacement is indeed of a better quality but it is just as free (or non-free) as the original. --Irpen 18:08, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I used a program called Inkscape to make the images, it is very easy to make the star shapes, zig-zags, and plus, they used the same pattern as Soviet ranks. I have PD drawings by the US Navy at my house of the Soviet naval ranks. User:Zscout370 18:25, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

But did you base your work on the verbal description provided in the UA-law or the images under the discussion to make yours? Because in the latter case and with the presumption that those images are non-free, the derivative work produced on their basis cannot be released under the free license. Point is that they are free to begin with, but if we proceed from assuming otherwise, your solution won't work. --Irpen 18:29, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

edit point

Yet another ridiculous copyright discussion. If something is in the public domain for whatever the reason (released to PD, author died 70+ years ago, intelligibility) you cannot claim copyright over it. The flag of the United States is in the public domain regardless of who draws it. Rank insignia is generally designed to contain simple shapes. Such can't be copyrighted.

One thing is absolutely certain, third party sites have no say over the copyright of rank insignia that belong to the actual copyright holder - which may very well be licensed under PD-intelligibile.

Non-copyright related restrictions are beyond of our interest unless they apply to Floridan or US federal law due to the location of the servers.

-- Cat 21:39, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

American Family Association 2

Hello all. Part of the reason for making the American Family Association notification above yesterday was due to the personal attacks or lack of good faith remarks made involving the accusation of lies and deceit: (edit summary), talkpage text: and recently on my talkpage . To begin dispute resolution, RFC was instigated by user AniMate (AniMate) and has been helpful for supplying a venue for constructive discussion. Nevertheless the accusation of deceit continues as mentioned before . In the interests of constructive discussion, I leave it up to administrators here to intervene if necessary. Regards Hal Cross 11:38, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

He's right though. You're arguing, for example, that this "Charity Navigator" is a reliable source, when in fact it repeats verbatim what the AFA says about itself, and most of that data is not relevant (ie financial figures, categorization of the group, etc). Claiming that the AFA supports traditional values, has broad public support, or is not homophobic, based on the fact that it's listed in an aggregate data system about charities is a huge leap in reasoning. The source is not appropriate, not for the claims you seem to think it supports - how on Earth does financial information cherry picked from the AFA's tax forms in any way absolve the AFA of being labeled anti-gay? It seems to be totally irrelevant, at best synthesis and at worst, nonsense. A spade is a spade - if you're being nonsensical, saying so isn't a personal attack. You don't need to create an ANI report or an RfC every single time someone disagrees with you - especially since this is still subject to an ongoing RfC and is still related to your previous ANI post. --Cheeser1 15:09, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

This is more about lack of good faith, especially as further evidence is arriving on Orpheus' stated refusal to assume good faith Hal Cross 09:48, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Exactly what is the purpose of the Homophobia cat? WAVY 10 Fan 15:43, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

To categorize articles related to Homophobia. It is a social phenomenon verifiably linked to dozens of organizations, historical events, legislative actions, litigations, etc. Like any category, it tags articles that are related to such a thing. If you think the category is being abused, take it up on the category talk page, although there are already guidelines laid out there about appropriate use. If you think the category itself is a problem, I'd say nominated for deletion, but it failed a deletion and a move, not more than a month ago. Repeatedly nominating something that just passed a CfD is a disruption of Misplaced Pages to make a point. Obviously consensus can change, but these concerns have already been addressed only a few weeks ago. And if your issue is that you think it's mean, unfair, or you don't like it, that's really not our concern. All of this, of course, has little relevance to the ANI. This is a dispute about a category, and it belongs on the category's talk page. Administrators aren't here to jump in and settle every single dispute or disagreement that anybody has. --Cheeser1 18:14, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

To address the claim that Orpheus allegedly did not assume good faith (a matter perhaps for the WQA, if anything), the comment in question is here: . Orpheus clearly and civilly explained that Hal has repeatedly added sources known to be unreliable in order to make claims that are highly dubious and extraordinarily partisan. To say "I can no longer assume good faith" is what happpens when people don't edit in good faith. We assume good faith. If and editor's behavior indicates that our assumption was not correct, then clearly there is good reason to question whether that editor is behaving appropriately. --Cheeser1 18:18, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

FreeSWITCH and comments about me personally are false.

The user Calltech has posted comments that are false and make me and our project look bad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:FreeSWITCH#86.92.134.171_comment

http://en.wikipedia.org/WT:WPSPAM#Newbie_briankwest_.28aka_86.92.134.171.29_gone_wild

I want these comments removed as they are false. If I must i'll have the community post comments and back me up on this one.

Briankwest 18:33, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Which community? —Cryptic 21:15, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Can't this be construed as an intent to disrupt the project through recruiting meatpuppets? -Jéské 21:19, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

What comments are false? Who are you? What project? What community? If you want Misplaced Pages administrators to help you solve your problem, you have to state your case clearly and succinctly. You need to explain what has happened, what has been said, and what you want Misplaced Pages administrators to do. Until you do that (it's not very hard, I don't know why you haven't already) then it's not unreasonable that your complaint lie idle. -- 217.42.190.82 21:26, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Just about everything but the first sentence of the briankwest_gone_wild link that says I'm Brian K West and I admin the FreeSWITCH.org site. The rest is totally false about me as it was some other person and NOT ME. The FreeSWITCH community is what I'm talking about. Briankwest 00:05, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I heavily doubt recruiting meatpuppets (as you say you are willing to do) is going to make your edits any more accepted. If you have a concern with regards to personal information, go see Misplaced Pages:Requests for oversight; don't try meatpuppetry. -Jéské 09:38, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Briankwest's indignant behaviour here is incredible. He and another member of the FreeSWITCH development team User:Trixter ie have been posting comments on my talk page and on the FreeSWITCH using anon IP addresses as well as their WP identities creating confusion while concealing their association with the FreeSWITCH article. Just today trixter revealed his true identity and the use of the anon ID 86.92.134.171.29 in question. They both have been employing sockpuppetry techniques to conceal their association with the project in an attempt to avoid WP:COI. They created the confusion on my talk page, one by posting under his identity and the other following up with an anon IP, appearing to be speaking as (or for) the other. Now claiming that his reputation and his project's reputation is being damaged after trixter, a member of his project team, made abusive comments here Talk:FreeSWITCH#Suggestions for Improvement is laughable. Calltech 18:40, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Another member of the FreeSWITCH community User:Trixter ie admitted to using multiple IDs including IP (86.92.134.171.29) and being the source for the abusive comments that I mistakenly attributed to Brian K West. My apologies. Calltech 12:16, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

BTW, because of the high number of SPA contributions on this article's talk page and because of the apparent sockpuppetry and WP:COI tactics used by some users, a complaint was lodged here WP:COI/N#FreeSWITCH.E2.80.8E by editor Cryptic contributing at Talk:FreeSWITCH. Calltech 19:22, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Umm killer

User:Umm killer has been blocked and the guy's begging for an admin to come, and he's not patient. Could someone please attend to him? Cheers,JetLover (Report a mistake) 02:25, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Uncivil anonymous editor

Some time ago I removed an image from the article Turkic peoples. I have explained my rationale on the article's talk page. An anonymous editor keeps re-adding the image, but refuses to engage in a meaningful discussion. Instead she or he puts rude (and crude) texts on my talk page and in edit summaries:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Lambiam&diff=prev&oldid=160912618
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Turkic_peoples&diff=prev&oldid=161842132 (see the edit summary)
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Turkish_people&diff=prev&oldid=161934707 (see the edit summary)
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Lambiam&diff=prev&oldid=162140390]
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Lambiam&diff=prev&oldid=162335702]
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Turkic_peoples&diff=prev&oldid=162776846] (see the edit summary)
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Lambiam&diff=prev&oldid=162777942]

The first is from 88.233.22.230 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), the next four from 88.233.181.109 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), and the last two from 85.101.255.217 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log). The edit patterns are so similar that I am convinced this is all the same person.  --Lambiam 02:56, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Although I can't read Turkish, the manner of edits, including use of non-english and the repeated use of Lambiam's name like it is, clearly directing edit summaries at him, then again directing even comments on Lambiam's talk page at him by name, the poor english grammar in multiple comments, and so on, incline me to concur. This isn't particularly a content dispute because there's no apparent discussion going on that multiple editors could weigh in on (because the IP uses Turkish and broken english to insult, not discuss). I'd support a rangeblock, as it looks like they're coming from the same range of IPs. (I could be wrong, my technical IP intarweb-fu is lousy, I just tighten the nuts on my intar-tubes to get less static, and turn the steamvalves for more bandwidth.) ThuranX 03:35, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

According to the Whois data, the range is 88.233.0.0/17, which is 32,000 IPs. If it continues, we can semi-protect the page. I've removed the image for the time being, citing Lambiam's talk page comment, with which I agree.--chaser - t 05:46, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

The most recent edits are from the 85.101.128.0/17 range anyway.  --Lambiam 06:09, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

All 3 IPs belong to Türk Telekom, and are routed through the router named gyt_t2_2-gyt_t1_1.ttnet.net.tr (seen from my house), so it's likely they are in the same city, but there doesn't seem to be a closer relationship between them. We can't rangeblock a major ISP. --Alvestrand 06:01, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Alright, so s a rangeblock isn't particularly viable. What other options do we have? Semi the Turkic Peoples page for a while, and Lambaim's user talk for a week? I don't like semi's on talks, as it stops legit IP's, but case-by-case, it might work for this situation? ThuranX 18:50, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I can read Turkish. Translations as follows

Less than fascinating...

On the technical side a range block is a bad idea. you'd have to block an 85.101.xxx.xxx range. The IPs are dynamic so blocking a single one is rather pointless. All it takes is the reset of the modem.

-- Cat 21:56, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Group of users blanking Star Trek character articles

Administrators, there appears to be something strange going on with articles about Star trek characters. Worf and Geordi La Forge have been hit in the last couple of days by a group of users (or perhaps the same user with several different accounts) who are reverting the entire article to a version from months ago. The reason for this isn’t clear but the edit summaries contain phrases like “resetting article” and “returning to stub”. There was also a border line personal attack where one of the users called another “a lazy tagger”. Now, I don’t know a great deal about Star Trek, but this looks like vandalism. And even if there is some kind of justifiable reason to repair these article, or remove bad info, reverting to a months old version, wiping out everyone else’s changes since then, doesn’t appear to be the right way to do it. -OberRanks 04:16, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Deanna Troi and Data (Star Trek) also being hit by the same people. -OberRanks 04:23, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

You could probably make a convincing argument for a checkuser case. EVula // talk // ☯ // 05:49, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think they're socks. The only three I see doing this are Cromulent Kwyjibo, ShutterBugTrekker, and Anton Mravcek, all of whom have been around a while and have different editing interests. Perhaps they just agree. I see a note here, but brief notes to those three editors asking for discussion of the issue would be step one. They may not have even noticed the talk page thread.--chaser - t 06:14, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I repeatedly asked the user(s) to stop re-instating the bold changes, and there is a thread at Talk:Data (Star Trek) about it, although I don't think s/he responded. I'm disturbed by this "it's all the lazy taggers' fault" nonsense. The article can be cleaned up just as easily as it can be "rest and fixed." If anything it's just as lazy to gut the article - they're not taking the time to clean things up either. But seriously, why not have disorganized information than no information? These three people keep referring to some magical theory that a stub is better than an untidy article, but I don't see how that's necessarily true. Unless they have consensus support, they should stop making these bold edits and discuss the changes they want on the talk page. --Cheeser1 06:15, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I've actually seen this before. Basically, the issue is over the fact that the articles are primarily written with an "in-world" style. The 'vandals' are removing all the information that goes against this (like the entire fictional back story found in Geordi La Forge) and leaving a stub for a new article to be created. The "lazy taggers" comments are because I've seen those "in-world" notices for months, if not years and I guess it's one way to force the issue. No real opinion but hopefully just making it a little clear for all. It's basically another version of the WP:FICTION content disputes we see in other places. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:08, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Holy trapped in a box and can't get Out Of Universe, Batman!... seriously though, is there a WP:Star Trek to whose attention this can be brought? I'm gonna go look, and if so, let all know. ThuranX 18:53, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Done. I've notified the project regarding this thread, and the larger issues at hand, hopefully the three day weekend will yield a cleanup. ThuranX 18:57, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Leuko

Diffs below. Issue not resolved. Bstone 15:43, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I would like to bring to the attention of the adminship the user User:Leuko. Recently Leuko has been using bullying and extremely uncivil methods in an attempt to get his edits to be the final ones. Moreover, he has come to using various level 3 warnings on various editors' talk pages for "vandalism" as a first-resort when trying to get his position to take hold. These warnings imply that he is an admin and has the ability to block us. This is extremely disturbing to a casual editor such as myself. I wonder if someone might be able to take a look into this and perhaps talk to Leuko about his heavy-handed attitude and his absolute improper use of the warnings. Thank you. Bstone 06:31, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

• see related discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:Template messages/User talk namespace#Non-admins issuing warnings -- Flyguy649 _contribs 06:38, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Level 3 and 4 warnings do not insinuate that the issuer is an admin, as has been pointed out at WT:UTM. No comment about Leuko's actions. -- Flyguy649 _contribs 06:38, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

It fooled two of us. That's all I can really say about it. In addition, however, and quite separately than the "fooling" issue, is Leuko lack of civility and bullying (vis-a-vis the bogus vandalism warnings). As well, Leuko saw it fit to edit my user page just a few days ago. This was uninvited and certainly not approved by me, yet he did so anyways. In short, Leuko is a loose cannon and must be dealt with. Bstone 06:54, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Bstone, if you really want something to be done, help everyone out and get links to the diffs that show us exactly what happened. Basically, if I could get a "I did this, Leuko responded with this warning, I did this, etc.", I think it would be more effective. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:42, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not going to provide the diffs that show this case, but anyone who's interested in knowing what happened can start here and follow the trail. Someguy1221 07:58, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

If you're unhappy about his editing your userpage (which, incidentally, you don't own; anyone is free to edit it), you should bring it up with him on his talk page, not here. EVula // talk // ☯ // 13:45, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I may not actually own my talk page, but I believe it to be clear that any unauthorized editing of my talk page can and, in this case, would be considered vandalism. One can see the changes as follows:

Leuko's unauthorized and unapproved editing (aka vandalism) of my user page]. Looking at this link one will notice the high number of bogus "warnings" issued by Leuko to me ]. Bstone 15:41, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Resolved? The other editor who has harassed and bullied by Leuko hasn't gotten a chance to post here as he was probably sleeping. Please reactivate this. In addition, I will be adding the links and diffs (see above). Thank you. Bstone 15:09, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Please. Reviewing the talk page of the article that this content dispute is about reveals all that is needed. Leuko was wrong to use a template regarding a content dispute. You were the first to claim his edits as vandalism, and it is clear that you knew he was not an administrator, so claiming that that is the reason you brought it here is disingenuous at best. You brought it here hoping to get a leg up in what is a content dispute in which both of you have acted inappropriately. As above, AN/I is not a step in dispute resolution. This is resolved as concerns AN/I. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 20:29, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Bbatsell, I beg you to tell me how you know what I "knew" and what I didn't "knew". I promise you that I was under the impression that Leuko was an admin. Furthermore, I view his edit to the InfoBox in that article to be pure vandalism. The reason is simple: it has absolutely nothing to do with the article and entirely violated NPOV. Thus, I removed it. However, before closing this you should wait to hear from the other user who has been wikistalked and harassed by Leuko. This case is not resolved as Leuko has not been counseled on proper use of warnings. When that happens then this case will be resolved. Bstone 21:59, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Bstone. Leuko has been issuing warnings to other editors with such authority that it gives the impression that he is some kind of administrator. Clearly, there must be a distinguishing quality between warnings issued by admins and “normal” editors, i.e., not all persons should issue such warnings. This may drive people away from editing wikipedia. I had only made one edit on a page, and I got a warning that sounded like “You will be blocked….” Additionally, Leuko needs to relax a bit and allow other editors to edit pages. If anyone goes against Leuko, they are threatened by warnings. Yep, that’s Leuko. DrGladwin 17:36, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Hehe, I like how you make a big deal about how apparently only admins should make certain calls, yet ignore an admin when he tells you that this isn't an administrative issue. :P
The first diff you provided can easily be interpreted as a personal attack, meaning that a warning from him was probably justified. I see absolutely no effort in your contributions to leave a message on Leuko's talk page, which you should have done before running here. This is a personal dispute, and this board isn't the place for dispute resolution. {{resolved}} is only there to inform other admins that this doesn't require their attention, because it's a personal dispute, and not an administrative issue. EVula // talk // ☯ // 00:33, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

User:Eckoman120

Hi I am reporting this user because 7/8 of his edits have been vandalism, this includes deleting whole articles and using homophobic language. Special:Contributions/Eckoman120. Realist2 07:47, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

This actually isn't the best place for that. You should basically issue the proper warnings (it's not as complicated as it looks) and if he keeps going, posting to Misplaced Pages:Administrator intervention against vandalism will get a much faster response. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:53, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Sm565 complain for Adam Cuerden.

(forum-shopping redacted) by ELIMINATORJR 16:35, 7 October 2007 (UTC))

I deleted Sm565's POV tags because he just simply tagged any bit of criticism as POV, and then refused to say anything actually wrong with it when asked, other than it was unfair to criticise homeopathy. He then spent most of the last week making facile and pointless objections wasting all the editor's time. I tried to archive some sections, but was repeatedly reverted, so I just did what is done with other examples of trolling on heavily-trolled pages, and put it in a {{hat}} {{hab}} to try and allow editors who aren't a meatpuppet for George Vithoulkas like all the ones we had descending a few months ago to actually edit productively. Adam Cuerden 08:29, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I did not anything wrong. I did not revert anything besides the tag POV ONLY after other users you agree with removed the statement which the main editor ( AFTER reaching a consensus) put in the article. You did not take any action against that. Whoever visits the talk page in homeopathy he will understand. --Sm565 08:49, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

His actions seem to me within the boundaries of civility, making this nothing more than a content dispute. Follow dispute resolution if needed. Please be warned that attempting to place homeopathic practicers on the same pedestal of reliability as the NIH or the AMA, as well as attempting to dismiss modern science as mere theory, will be generally fruitless. Someguy1221 08:32, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

• The essay by Sm above was posted to WP:RPP; I turned it into a protection request for him in good faith. If anyone objects to me making the request, feel free to get rid of it. Sm, forum-shopping is very much frowned upon on Misplaced Pages. -Jéské 09:47, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

• The article is already protected anyway. Adam Cuerden is correct; a quick scan of the article history and talkpages reveals quite clearly that the only tendentious editing is occurring from User:Sms565 and other POV-pushers, amongst other things adding {fact} tags to clearly cited material. Thus, I have redacted the forum-shopping posting above, make a comment on Sms565's talk page, and marked this item as resolved. ELIMINATORJR 16:35, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

This is totally unfair and inappropriate.Only the fact that you avoid addressing Adams behavior in the talk page which the main complain is a sign that you reading is not in good faith.

A good faith reader who will go through the discussion , my complain and the request will not find the EliminatorJR|< statament objective. The request is to protect the under dispute sign in the article and to restore my comments. "a quick scan of the article history and talkpages?" how you went through so quickly it is a extremely long discussionin which I have participated only for a month!

Whoever sees the quality of the comments of the group of the editors including Adam he will agree with this.

Tendentious editing??: The cited sources dont state what is claimed in the article. Thats why I had to copy and paste them in the talk page and explain why. Even Adam agreed. Examples:

Please another administrator intervene - NPOV needed--Sm565 17:08, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Stop trying to ask another parent. Although the essay here predates WP:RPP's essay, you're simply trying to find a way to get Adam in trouble. Do all of us the honor and drop it. -Jéské 18:40, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I think it is not appropriate to hide other users comments - its not about anyone. My report was vanished and nonone can tell what I was talking about. --Sm565 20:59, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

It was removed because you were forum-shopping, which is (at the least) hated on Misplaced Pages. However, the post here predates the RFPP essay by about thirty minutes, and the essay is linked on the Homeopathy prot request I filed, if it's still there. -Jéské 22:05, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

It was a report about unacceptable behavior. Nonone has the right to edit others opinions.I had to give examples and explain. Using this excuse you can remove everything from this board if you dont agree with some editors view. --Sm565 22:32, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

sigh... Sm, posting an essay to several different pages in a hope that someone will take action in favor of you is explicitly disallowed on Misplaced Pages. Your essay here was removed when I pointed out you posted the exact same one to WP:RPP. Just drop the axe. -Jéské 00:35, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

User:Peter morrell

I was actually writing this up when the last thing got posted, but, oh well.

Peter morrell (talk · contribs) is on probation after an .

He's now reverted fully to his old ways.

• "science zealots" and trying to pull others in to POV-push
• Editing my statements to change their meaning
• And reverting me when I object

Other examples include Talk:Homeopathy#more Quote mining (caught by ornis) and the lovely opening to Talk:Homeopathy#Molecules, where he shows himself completely unable to look at the mainstream point of view rationally:

Much of the above talk about straw man germ theory and dilutions is theoretical nonsense. Nobody knows what matter is or what happens when something is diluted. Hahnemann and his followers believed he had hit upon a genuine new discovery about matter in solution. Who is really to deny this? Chemistry and the molecular theory is merely a model of how matter seems to behave; we do not know all the answers and to claim we do is dishonest. Maybe some molecules do remain at 30c who knows? To deny this is to assume that the avogadro limit is absolute when in reality it is merely an average. On average no molecules remain after 10 -23 but in reality nobody knows. Nor does anybody know what the shaking does. Violent shaking of the solution is certainly regarded by homeopaths as crucial to the potentiation process. Adam Cuerden 08:37, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Plz take a look at protected template

I think there's a template for getting admin attention on a protection page but I don't know it. I don't know how often this page is watched, but please see this. Milto LOL pia 08:40, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

You can use {{Editprotected}} on the talk page, or post your request here. Someguy1221 08:43, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I think I fixed the issue. -- lucasbfr 12:38, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Recent editing by PalestineRemembered

A few days ago I noticed an editor, PalestineRemembered, on a few articles regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. His edits concerned me, as they did not seemed make the articles more neutral or more informative, but instead more according to what appeared to be PalestineRemebered personal point of view regarding the conflict: . Another thing that concerned me was that he was using the edit summaries for personal political comments and soapboxing: "Internationally recognised as Occupied - a status having significant daily effects on the life of all who live there."

Due to these concerns I decided to take a closer look at his efforts and found them to be very concerning. Many of his edits were in clear violation of Misplaced Pages's policies regarding neutrality:

• The Hebron Massacre refers to the death of sixty-seven Jews (who "died of natural causes" in a violent mob riot?).
• - he removed information sourced by several reliable sources.

On the discussion pages he was soapboxing and made no secret of his personal opinions and intentions on the articles regarding the Israeli-palestinian conflict:

• "I think you're playing the propaganda game of the Israelis with this listing. They're proud to be so effective at whatever they turn their hand to, so your list is further evidence of that, but contributes little to understanding what was going on. In 1947, they could excuse all their actions because they were fighting the British for blocking immigration and not giving them a state. In April 1948 they had no real excuse for slaughtering predominantly women, children and the old."

• "You're taking the side of the bullies in this affair, the people who are ethnically cleansing the Palestinians, and want the massacre of 1929 in Hebron to be twisted to prove that Arabs are diseased. The fact that real practitioners of Judaism lived in peace with Arabs is poison to their way of thinking, and they apply heavy pressure to stop that evidence ever coming to light."

He also aggressively promoted the use of partisan websites such as jewsagainstzionism.com as sources on Misplaced Pages: "Defenders of Israel have huge problems with www.jewsagainstzionism.com because these folk are outraged that their faith is so horrendously abused. The fact they they're real practitioners of Judaism"

Browsing some of his edits, I also noticed that PalestineRemembered has had a mentor for quite some time. However, as the above diffs makes it clear, this has failed to change his behavior into something that is even remotely acceptable. I therefore request that an admin now step in and ensure that PalestineRemembered do not continue his disruptive behavior and policy violations.

As it is obvious from his discussion page and his extensive block log, which include no less than eight block from this year, for disruption, 3RR etc, he has already been warned extensively about soapboxing and biased and confrontational editing. -- Karl Meier 09:12, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

This looks like stirring for the sake of it, PalestineRemembered is well aware that his editors come under heavy scrutiny, take it to the article talk pages. Catchpole —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 09:32, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Whilst I don't agree with everything PR has done, it's a little unfair to criticise him for removing references to www.hebron.org.il (a settler website) but also for adding references from www.jewsagainstzionism.com. Several Israeli contributors have insisted on (and got away with) using partisan sources such as CAMERA in the same way that PR has referenced jewsagainstzionism, i.e. in cases where it is directly quoting people/documents. пﮟოьεԻ 57 10:38, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't see what CAMERA or POV of other editors have anything to do with this ANI, I did however see this new article which makes me suggest that, together with all the rest of the evidence, perhaps this user should be topic banned. --Gilisa 14:05, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

'partisan websites such as jewsagainstzionism' refers to a Haredi website which posted a translation (not impugned) of a talk given by an eyewitness survivor of the 1929 Hebron massacre. It is not a hate site, but is excluded, because the survivor showed not enmity against Arabs, notwithstanding the horror he witnessed, but charity whereas the person who removed it posted a document (equally valid as a document) from a site run by people who, on that site, call virtually all Palestinian Arabs, MPs in the Knesset, Palestinian officials, 'terrorists', and even accuse Netanyahu of supplying superior weaponry to the eternal enemies of Eretz Israel. I think either both sources are acceptable, or neither. But, as has occurred to date, to have PR challenged for citing a Haredi source while allowing PR's adversary a free run with the mirror site's material is hardly an instance of neutrality. Nishidani 21:57, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually there's no evidence the jewsagainstzionism website is a Haredi website, please see Talk:Jews Against Zionism (disambiguation) for past discussion demonstrating that it is a personal anonymous website that has nothing verifiable to link it to any organization, Jewish or otherwise. It fails as a reliable source and should be removed if any editor is indeed trying to use it as a Misplaced Pages reference. --MPerel 03:24, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Please note that 2 Hareidi users have already declared it as a hareidy website and evidence to it is on its web page; they only quote from Hareidi Rabbis what else of evidence can persuade somebody that this is more Hareidi?--יודל 13:50, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

OKay. The contested site simply repastes what can be found on Neturei Karta International. Jews United against Zionism,' associated with Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss, an Haredi Jew = http://www.nkusa.org/Historical_Documents/KaplanInterview.cfm. What's the problem now? PR has simply got the wrong site for the right cite.Nishidani 09:54, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Hated Google Test is a complete waste of space and I would hope that PR requests {{db-author}} asap. пﮟოьεԻ 57 15:38, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I have speedied the article as pov-pushing, an attempt to prove a point and a neologism with no assertion of notability. Aecis 15:42, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

My apologies for having created something that appears not to exist anywhere other than the over-creative imagination of one Wikipedian editor. Perhaps I should recreate "Hated Google Test" as a significant part of WP:POLICY, along the lines of (but perhaps more important than) WP:IDONTLIKEIT or WP:BEANS. PR 20:20, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Are you aware of the existence of WP:GOOGLE? Aecis 20:23, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I am (and was). WP:GOOGLE says "Raw hit count is a very crude measure of importance" and then some other stuff explaining why hit count must not be depended on. Maybe someone has a better example than I thought of, but it won't be easy to find any evidence this clear-cut that could go into an essay aspiring to become a guideline. PR 14:38, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

The above comment by Karl Meier is largely consistent with what was described at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/PalestineRemembered. That RfArb was closed early with no further actions taken, "as the dispute being arbitrated has been satisfactorily resolved by the major parties." It might not be such a bad idea to reopen the RfArb. Aecis 14:22, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Where the allegations here are true, they are minor and not actionable, and where they are serious and actionable they are false. Going point-by-point:

• PR absolutely did not allege that the Hebron victims "died of natural causes"; indeed, in the very diff you have linked, PR stated that '"Killed in mob violence" or "died in riots" are correct, "mass-murder" is not.' His argument, which one can agree or disagree with, was apparently that "mass murder" implies a level of systematic intent which may not have existed in this case. Nothing to see here.

• • indent comment (by Jaakobou) - you were not involved on the 1929 Hebron Massacre article, and the sources linked clearly do show intent. Jaakobou 08:16, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

• The first reference is not in any way reliable; it is the website of the Hebron settlers, a tiny extremist group of radical Jews who occupy the center of Hebron along with a huge number of IDF soldiers and Israeli police. They are widely treated as such in world media, including centrist-conservative Israeli newspapers. See On tape: Palestinians harassed in Hebron ‘cage’, Yedioth Ahronoth, Hebron settlers filmed throwing rocks at Palestinians, Yedioth Ahronoth, Hebron Settlers Attack Palestinian Neighborhood, New York Times, Jewish settlers in Hebron claim they have history on their side, Sydney Morning Herald, etc etc etc. The second reference, while seemingly reliable, says that one Palestinian policeman joining in the melée, while the article contradicted it.

• • indent comment (by Jaakobou) - you were not involved on the 1929 Hebron Massacre article: the website represents the Jewish municipality of Hebron and it links to a History book requested by User:Nishidani (i made a phone call to validate the source). Jaakobou 08:16, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Jaakobou is an Unreliable Source for this, and his challenges to User:Eleland's good summary of the specific points contested are specious. I was there. Don't take my word for it though. There is a long discussion on this, and it is still under discussion, by those interested, on the talk page. Any attempt to deprive PR of a voice in that discussion will only stack the vote, not against PR, but against the problem raised. I support PR's continued presence here, as I do not oppose Jaakobou's though he demonstrably culls his material from a website run by a hate group (I can supply the evidence from their own website if required), that of Kiryat Arba, which is amply cited on pages not related to Kiryat Arba.Nishidani 10:02, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

User:Nishidani, this assuming bad faith is exactly the reason i initially refused to translate the hebrew page for you. this and the lowering down the death toll (revert on 21:11, 18 July) from 67 to 59 even after i noted that the discrepancy (13:15, 16 July) is because 59 died immediately and 8 more died from their wounds in the hospital later. I was at first only a tad angered by your explanation that gilbert must be right because "Martin Gilbert is Jewish," (09:47, 19 July) and noted to you that (1) it doesn't matter that he's jewish, and (2) that this could be because of selective reading (something you denied at the time), but what clinched it for me was that you actually did later admit that it is a case of selectively reading the material. btw, i must thank you for that swift attempt at character assassination.

p.s. you've forgotten to address that you did in fact requested the book be inserted, and also assumed that i have not validated that the source is reliable. Jaakobou 11:33, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Those are your serious actionable claims, which ring hollow. Your other claims are true but irrelevant; PR should try to keep his opinions to himself when they don't directly relate to improving the article, but such statements are hardly a serious disruption, let alone one worthy of administrator intervention. Furthermore, one of your examples is a semi-private discussion in his own user-space - who cares?

Finally, you report the blocks, but ignore the context. Three of those blocks were completely erroneous; PR was falsely accused of copying citations from a neo-Nazi group; he in fact cited a newspaper article which he hadn't read, instead of citing a credible scholarly book which he had read, and which cited the newspaper article accurately. Subsequently User:Jayjg called him out as a Nazi sympathizer without any evidence, and a "lynch mob" atmosphere almost prevailed until PR proved beyond any doubt that his source was not the neo-Nazis. Prior to that, Jayjg blocked him for making an on-topic editorial comment , to the effect that prominently labeling Israeli politicans by ethnic or sectarian identity was "harmful in society and ... damaging to the project." And most recently, we have a 3RR block which was overturned as an ambiguous situation, and a fifteen minute block "to think about which mentor you would be choosing. Anyone can unblock you if you come up w/ a name before the block is expired."

In summary, these charges are inflated beyond all reason, and the discussion here should be closed. Oh, except for the "Hated Google Test" thing, I don't know if he meant that to be in WP: namespace or what, but it's just weird. Maybe we could, you know ask him instead of handing out the pitchforks and torches, again. <eleland/talkedits> 16:24, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

PalestineRemembered is grateful not to be blocked with prejudice as has happened repeatedly before

I'm doing my best to act in a responsible and consistent fashion in articles and Talk. Edits such as this (the first one I'm being challenged on) strike me as entirely proper. If a particular notable commentator (or public relations spokesman - or even propaganda operative) has commentated on a particular incident in world affairs, we should use his terminology for the event. His terminology is likely to be POV - so what? To quote him in any other fashion raises all kinds of issues, perhaps including BLP. The encyclopedia should not be going there.

The second charge against me seems to relate to standard international useage of the term "occupied territory". It's hardly POV on my part to assert that we use the recognised term - in fact, it's more than a teensy-weensy bit disturbing I should be taken to AN/I for defending a standard useage.

I won't bother going through the rest of these accusations point by point, I think we can take it as read that they are trivial. (Has anyone, ever, been taken to AN/I for creating an article? Particularily one that most editors would probably like to see included as policy - the thing I've called the "Hated Google Test"?)

But I will comment on the CSN and subsequent ArbCom Workshop and ArbCom evidence on the case that bears my name. I pleaded that the Committee examine the case properly and arbitrate definitively on the accusations against me. Opinion for doing so swung in my favour, reaching 4-1 (my memory, anyway?), before swinging back and being defeated. I will continue to assert that if vile accusations of "taking views and references from Holocaust Deniers" are bandied around in a reckless and provably false fashion, then they should be unequivocably retracted and apologised for. Simple justice demands no less.

Lastly, I have a plea of my own - it is clear that there are editors around who damage the encyclopedia (I don't include my current accuser in this case, I'm not aware our paths have ever crossed). Such editors: (Have removed my listing cluttering page PR 14:38, 8 October 2007 (UTC))

All in all, there are really serious problems, up to and including outright disruption, going on in the project. But I'm small fry indeed in the scale of things! PR 18:56, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I can't see anything here but an adventitious act of prosecutorial wikilawyering bullying based on spurious evidence, and am ashamed that such trivial accusations should be raised to clutter up the machinery of arbitration, which is better dedicated to serious matters.

Worse. Karl Meier's factitious jeremiad includes two pieces of 'evidence' involving passages in which I was in conflict with User:Palestine Remembered. I have some tough and stubborn all-Israeli(i.e.'Hear no evil, see no evil' attitudes) adversaries in these controversial pages, as full of POV as a po (and no doubt they see my editorial work in a similar light). I have personally seen however no grounds for taking these adversaries to arbitration. One fights these things out on the talk page. It's the actual page that has to be free of POV, not the talk page.

Since I have just noted, and been amazed by, this snooping, dossier building and then 'denunciation' to the authorities, I haven't given this much thought, since I thought that went out sometime before the end of the first half of the last century. But if the frivolous character of the accusation requires close analysis, I'm ready to weigh in with one, starting with the fact that on long-standing pages, Great Britain was (until I noted it casually this morning) arraigned (in the most objective prose, NPOV) as being corresponsible for the Holocaust. I could multiply such examples by the hundreds, and with this absurd POVing in NPOV dress throughout wikipedia, anyone who undertakes to clean it up gets, while no doubt having a POV hidden or otherwise of his/her own, into huge edit battles by people more familiar with wikilawyering than the principles of forensic evidence and the rules of neutral historian writing. Nishidani 18:02, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Block him. Misplaced Pages is not a place for false propoganda, and that's the cause he wants to use it for. M.V.E.i. 19:44, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. So "true propaganda" is OK, then? -- ChrisO 19:51, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

It has become a Misplaced Pages tradition to drop in on one of these pages (AN/I, CSN, Arbcom) every month or so and try to get PR banned. Usually this involves some regular participant in the daily cafeteria foodfight of WP's Middle-East-related talk pages leaving the fray for a minute, wiping the applesauce and mayonnaise off his fingers and tucking in his shirt, then marching to the principle's office to announce in precocious adult-like tones that PR has been misbehaving again. What a load of balderdash. Again.--G-Dett 00:45, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

So says PR's "wiki-lawyer" and another chronic soapboxer. This is really boring. Despite the apologia, if PR himself can't see how his behaviour here is problematic, he's going to wind up the same way as M.V.E.i. below. <<-armon->> 02:21, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Why don't we ban all pro-Israeli editors instead, it's not as if the result would be any different save for the POV which gets across. The monthly whining about the existence of opposition is laughable. Letting the Misplaced Pages Jews (bad word?) have their way with the Middle East articles would be productive only in their own eyes. --Saber 09:56, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

comment regarding PR (by User:Jaakobou)

Disclaimer:

1. I have an overly prolonging conflict with PalestineRememberd, but seeing that his friends decided to advocate for him, i've decided to list the recent issues i've had with him.

2. noting the advocacy situation, i will not list down anything that might be presented later as a content related COI - i think it would be difficult for anyone to follow up what is true and what is false and i'd be worried that the conversation could get distracted from the main issue.

1. evidence to support the old blocks.

Due to consistent harassments by PR, accusing me of, "a long history of disruptive behaviour on TalkPages", (sample) where he'd add a link to an old and complex ANI he was not even involved in, and after i repeatedly told him that his accusation is false and asked him to stop, i've decided in my anger to go back and inspect some of his history.

i went back 1500 edits and started going up - and stopped after a month and a half.

issues from November 5, 2006 to December 19, 2006. - in short, i think there's evidence to support the old blocks.

2. harassment regarding my rich history (according to PR)

As mentioned above, there's an issue of him following me around telling everyone how rich my history of harassing people on their user pages supposedly is. i've not only explained to him that he misunderstood this (quite old) issue (he was not involved in) and requested him to stop on many occasions, but also reached the point where i was forced to place warnings and even opened an ANI to this issue.

example exchange - (easy read link - start: 21:29, 26 Aug. 07)

this was his response to my note about a very disruptive edit.

This situation escalated to an ANI after he insisted on repeating the attack - The AVI - closed without any administrative involvement to either the issue of abuse, or his status as "Mentorship challenged" (after his CSN).

after he continued his abuse, i've opened a forth ANI (first two were about him repeatedly accusing me to be a war criminal) demanding at least the issue of the mentor be resolved - and it ended with me finding User:Geni to be his a mentor.

ANI - no. 4 - i note that in this ANI User:Carlossuarez46 has expressed clearly that, "Users are given latitude as to what comments to keep and delete from their own user talk. However, removal of material is recognized as having read it, and now s/he's been warned of the harrassment you claim. If s/he conducts further harrassment, please report it - and link back here so that whoever has to deal with it knows that this editor has been warned of it before."

well, this issue has not ceased and here are just a few recent links:

• his response to my note regarding a disruptive edit - (talk:palestineremembered).

• his response to me explaining something i discussed with his mentor - (talk:battle of jenin)

• jumping in to attack me for raising the issue of disruptive edits by Eleland. - (Wiki:Village pump, assistance)

3. regarding the issue of PalestineRemembered mentor.

I believe User:Geni has been a very reasonable and neutral. whenever i raised an issue i'd be challenged by her with proper questions and was forced to prove my case fully - to which she'd make (pending if my case was convincing) comments to PalestineRemembered requesting him to explain his edit or avoid making an obvious breach.

I've been recently getting a tad frustrated with Geni's lack of response to the accumulative and exauhstive nature of the problem, to which i recieved a response that she not only does not see a problem, but also that she never believed there was ever a problem to begin with.

I have great respect for Geni as a reasonable and logical editor, but considering the community did believe there was a problem, I questioned why she hadn't made her position clear when she volunteered to mentor PalestineRemembered. Obviously, i would not have approved a mentor who thinks there was never a problem to begin with.

In short, I believe she's been quite helpful as an outside WP:3O, but hasn't really fulfilled the mission she signed up to.

summary

personally, i feel PalestineRemembered

1. has been a major disruption to content disputes breaking policies whenever an opportunity presented itself. (despite advocacy by his friends)
2. has not learned that repeatedly attacking others with false assertions was wrong.
3. is not only still in breach of the post-CSN mandate he's been given but he's been doing it knowingly.

I hope that some steps be made to resolve the issue, be it a periodical ban, topic ban, a more constrictive mentor and editing mandate, or other. Jaakobou 07:59, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Dispute resolution process and ANI

So. . .is this page part of the DR process now? It's a lot of material (and sub-headings!) for an 'incident'. R. Baley 10:10, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I vote we just delete any article having to do with Israel, Palestine, abortion, or pedophilia. Equazcion • argue/improves • 10:13, 10/8/2007

Seconded! <<-armon->> 14:13, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Comment on Jaakobou's comment on PR

You called me a 'racist and a bigot' (and others 'antisemitic') for citing Sir Martin Gilbert's History of the Modern World on Hebron's massacre (59 slaughtered, as opposed to 67, the difference being that between immediate casualties and the final death toll), simply because I noted to you that he was Jewish, pro-Zionist and one of the most eminent historians of the modern world, i.e. several grounds for your not contesting him as a RS. You should sort your problems out with PR on the talk pages and not get involved with lobbying attempts to get rid of a person you find unwelcome because PR has in the past used language and accusations of a kind that you yourself have used. As I say, I don't worry about these accusations - water off a duck's back - we're supposed to be serious adults in here, not whingeing kids- and don't scurry to some legal mechanism to denounce the person who mouthes them. You needn't take my example, but all this interest on your part in getting PR banned is a matter of the pot calling the kettle black, and trying to make the task of getting your own pronounced POV over more easy.Nishidani 10:15, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

1. i replied to you above for the 59/67 issue and the accusation of unreliability.
2. i'm fairly certain i did not call you racist by that exact word, but rather called your comments and notes racist and bigoted. just to explain this, i note you that you declared that the Jewish Community of Hebron website is run by many people with criminal records.

-- Jaakobou 11:45, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Jaakobou have a history of calling people he disagrees with racists and simmilar. // Liftarn

Jaakobou posted a diff to illustrate his reasoning, so read it and respond accordingly instead of making a blanket statement like this. Equazcion • argue/improves • 12:02, 10/8/2007

If anybody following this tedious exchange wishes to have documented why Jaakobou cannot be relied on as a reliable source to recount what happened in the discussions alluded to in here, take the last example.

Jaakobou writes:

(A).'i note you that you declared that the Jewish Community of Hebron website is run by many people with criminal records.

(B). I orginally wrote: 'The book, itself a legitimate source for all sorts of details, is hosted by the Jewish Community of Hebron, which is, as I noted above, run by many people with criminal records, and (has) a meticulously documented history of hate, violence, theft and murder in that area.' (See your note 33)

I.e. I said the Jewish Community at Hebron is run by people with criminal records (check, to name but the most egregious of many examples:Moshe Levinger, Noam Federman, Baruch Marzel, and for the nonce, Baruch Goldstein, whose criminal record is posthumous but who is revered there for shooting 29 Arabs at prayer, mainly in the back, to celebrate Purim*.) I did not say their website is run by criminals, as Jaakobou cleverly twists those clear words to argue I did. Their website features David Wilder's articles, their spokesman, who accuses Netanyahu of all people of supplying Arab terrorists (Arafat) with guns with those superior in firepower to the ones in standard use in the IDF, Israel's past governments as regimes, all Arab members of the Knesset as 'terrorists', all Arabs in Eretz Israel as 'terrorists', and denounces the creeping AIDS (Arabs in Disguise Syndrome) threatening to destroy Zion with its terroristic infections. But that is another matter.

As I have said, the difficulty in editing pages with Jaakobou is that one has to persist over long stretches of Talk in explaining to him elementary aspects of English syntax, grammar and what is or is not implied by a standard sentence in that language

To anticipate and avoid a useless thread that may arise from my wording. Please don't jump at the phrase 'to celebrate Purim' here. If one is agitated, read before drafting a reply Ian Lustik's For the Land and the Lord American Council on Foreign Relations (1988) (1994) Preface. Nishidani 13:13, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

To get get back on topic. Can you explain how Jaakobou calling you a racist exonerates PR's behaviour? Also, I looked at the diff Jaakobou provided, and it looks like some pretty bigoted soapboxing and poor behaviour on your part. You didn't provide any diffs where where he calls you a racist, but I don't see how it's germane anyway. <<-armon->> 14:13, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Jaakobou's notorious unreliability in articles and now his apparent distorting evidence to an AN/I is highly relevant to the discussion. It's pretty rich of him to accuse others of racism when he jeers at editors over their nationality. Here is his response to Alithein, a French speaking pro-Israeli who has stated that the equivalent article in the French Misplaced Pages (which Alithein wrote) uses better references: "best i'm aware, this is the english wikipedia, if the french version is unbalanced (what else is new), that is not my issue to solve" From an editor who repeatedly insists on putting non-English references into the encyclopedia (and is refusing to translate the texts) this is pretty astonishing behaviour. Also suggests he rates academics and scholarly work generally pretty low - as we see from his treatment of well-read and articulate editors in here. PR 15:10, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Page 'The Carpenters'

• Misplaced Pages:Requested moves#Incomplete and contested proposals wanted someone to histmerge Carpenters and The Carpenters, which I did:
  • Delete Carpenters : OK
  • Undelete Carpenters, but not edits which were redirects : OK
  • Delete The Carpenters : OK
  • Move Carpenters to The Carpenters: OK
  • Undelete The Carpenters : OK

One step remains to do: In The Carpenters, revert off the last edit (09:43, 7 October 2007 Anthony Appleyard), which is trash created by the histmerge. But every time I try that, my Firefox crashes, likely because Misplaced Pages's server is taking "an age and a snail" to finish tidying The Carpenters's edit history after the deleting and moving and undeleting. Anthony Appleyard 10:26, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I have reverted the edit you mentioned. Please contact me if I have made a mistake. Thanks. Tbo (talk) (review) 10:47, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

• • Thanks. The revert was correct. Anthony Appleyard 12:04, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

user:Rorybowman, violation of WP:BITE, inappropriate tagging of a user page

• See inappropriate actions by Rorybowman (talk · contribs), at the user page for User:24.0.42.27. Isn't trying to find out and expose the off-line identity of a Misplaced Pages user a stringent violation of policy ? Thank you for your time. Curt Wilhelm VonSavage 11:33, 7 October 2007 (UTC).

Yes, someone rv'd it and I've warned him.Rlevse 11:40, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

• Thank you for acknowledging that attempting to expose a Misplaced Pages user's ID is inappropriate. But Rorybowman (talk · contribs) has reverted my attempt to remove his inappropriate ID exposing info, at User:24.0.42.27. A block of Rorybowman (talk · contribs) might be in order here, to stop this reverting and attempts to expose someone's offline ID. Curt Wilhelm VonSavage 12:42, 7 October 2007 (UTC).

Obvious sockpuppet

• Moleman1870 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• MolemanR1870 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Probably not the correct place to be, but can someone block these two users as obvious sockpuppets as each other. The contributions for both (mainly with the edit summary "caps") says it all. Davnel03 11:55, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Done. It looks evasive to me because the sock was created after he was warned by Orangina2. Rlevse 15:21, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

User:VartanM

...is assuming bad faith , falsely accusing me of insulting and baiting someone by my edit comment here . Just want to indicate that User:RaffiKojian, who insulted me on my talk page , is also editor of Armeniapedia.org, a non-Misplaced Pages and non-neutral external Wiki, which I simply called unencyclopedic and POV in my edit comment. Atabek 12:19, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Atabek has baited User:RaffiKojian here. Then when Raffi tried to defend himself he was reported to ArbCom. I am the third user in the last 24 hours to be reported by Atabek ,, . His assuming bad faith left and right and then reporting people when they're trying to defend themselfs. --VartanM 12:34, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

This is how Raffi was "defending himself". Thanks. Atabek 19:25, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

User:Atabek

I moved the report to Arbcom noticeboard --VartanM 13:21, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

USER:Marhawkman

During this deletion discussion USER:Marhawkman has been acting in a manner some would consider disruptive and/or incivil. In this diff he says "STFU NOOB" and proceeds to paste an entire gudeline into the discussion. /Blaxthos 13:01, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Personal attack certainly. He could of easily given a link to the policy. Seeing as he isn't acting in good faith, I'm given him the UW AGF1 warning. Davnel03 14:03, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

If you actually read WP:AGF, you might realize that assuming good faith has relatively little to do with acting in good faith. —freak(talk) 16:21, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Still, I wouldn't say saying "STFU NOOB" is assuming good faith, is it? Davnel03 16:36, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, it really hasn't anything to do with assuming good faith; he's not making any suggestion imputing malign motive to another editor, for instance, but is simply being incivil. It is possible for one to attack another untowardly without questioning the latter's intentions (that's not, of course, to suggest that one is more pernicious than the other—although ceteris paribus a failure to assume good faith probably is less collegial and more acollaborative than is the making of a one-off personal attack—but simply to make a semantic distinction). Joe 17:21, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

IP's from Mercedes-Benz headquarters in Spain vandalising Lewis Hamilton article

• 195.235.246.33 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

All of this IP's contributions have been vandalism to Lewis Hamilton's article. According to IP-Adress, this traces back to Madrid, Spain, but more importantly, Mercedes Benz headquarters. I suggest the IP should be blocked to avoid future edits like this; also so that this doesn't get out into the media, and possibly suggest that Mercedes aren't against Hamilton winning the 2007 Formula One title. Thanks, Davnel03 15:18, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Wow, the media would have a field day with this one--Jac16888 15:29, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

The page has been protected already.Rlevse 17:09, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Why would we hide this hilarity from the media? :) --Golbez 19:30, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

If you really want to contact BBC or Sky News about this, then go head :) It would make Mercedes Benz look VERY bad. Davnel03 19:53, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

gosh I wouldn't want that to happen... (go Lewis!) --Golbez 22:23, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Those goofy little Spaniards... HalfShadow 22:25, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

What about 195.235.176.225 (talk · contribs)? See this and this vandalism from August 7, a few days after the incident between Hamilton and Alonso at the Hungarian Grand Prix. Is this Mercedes-Benz Spain as well? Aecis 22:34, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Apparently that is the SERVICIOS ADMINISTRATIVOS CONTABLES Y ASEGURADORES in Aragon, Spain, whatever the hell that is; I haven't taken spanish in four years. Someguy1221 22:48, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Translated: "Administrative, Accounting and Insurance Services". Titoxd 22:50, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

They're in the same /16 so same telco, but as far as I can tell, not related beyond that. –Crazytales♥♥ 01:55, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Two accounts assisting in promotion

Brianlane‎ was recently caught mass spamming links to a website he has created. Upon further looking through his edits, he created an article on Chuck Wolber...which was then edited by Chuckwolber. That user, Chuckwolber, created the now deleted article Brian Lane (developer) and has been adding information about a Brian Lane Embedded Developer to the Brian Lane article as seen here. These two account appear to exist primarily to promote themselves and each other with a clear conflict of interest. IrishGuy 18:48, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Users informed about WP:AUTO and WP:COI. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:56, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

User:M.V.E.i.

Based on the number of blocks this user has received, I would like to propose a permanent ban. Block log: Recent example of abuse: Thoughts? Rklawton 20:07, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

When I saw this, I assumed it would be about his recent atrocious rant on this very page. It was a dense, all-bold paragraph with such gems as, "i will tell you something about those "Palestinians". They dont work, and live on the money of Israel ... there is no such people Palestinians. They are Syrian and Egtptian Arabs ... They were first refered to as Palastinians by Hittler ... from the age of zero they are tought they live to kill Jews and fight for the Jihad. Here in Israel they teach us noncense that we have to 'respect them and try to achieve peace with them'". Amusingly, it was in the context of a proposed topic-ban of someone for alleged anti-Israel soapboxing! <eleland/talkedits> 20:12, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Complicated; as someone who's had a fair share of run-ins with this editor recently (check the talk page), I wouldn't be in the least sorry to see an end to their racist trolling & extreme POV-pushing (this and its edit summary is pretty representative), but they do make some valid edits as well. — iridescent (talk to me!) 20:13, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

How about progressively escalating blocks. He's acquired a long list of 24 to 48 hour blocks, so those clearly are not having the intended effect. I'd recommend that his next block be one week, then after that two weeks, then four weeks, eight weeks, sixteen weeks, etc. Maybe at some point he'll get the message; if not, it will eventually become a de facto ban. Raymond Arritt 20:15, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not clear on what you mean. This user has a long list of blocks and an unambiguous history of abuse. Who is supposed to be getting the message, us or M.V.E.i.? Rklawton 20:24, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I think what Raymond's trying to say (correct me if I'm wrong) is that MVEI does make valid edits as well, so maybe a long block will encourage them to stick to those and stop trolling. A glance over the laundry-list of warnings on the talk page is not encouraging, though. — iridescent (talk to me!) 20:26, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes that's what I meant. I didn't notice the 48 day block, though (misread it as 48 hours). Raymond Arritt 21:03, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I've just protected his talk page due to continued abuse. Rklawton 20:30, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

On further inspection of the block log, there's a 48 day block in there. If that didn't do the trick, I don't see what else will; maybe one final chance after this, then indefblock if any more foolishness — iridescent (talk to me!) 20:51, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

The discussion for previous block is here. As the one, who initiated that discussion, I must say that until very recently it seemed M.V.E.i. had come to his senses and was well on his way to become a good editor, albeit with some strange ideas - and I am sad to see it did not go that way. -- Sander Säde 20:59, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Also discussion here after his indefinite block. -- Sander Säde 21:01, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

(EC) As an editor who went right to MVEi and warned him about that sort of provocation and it's futility, only to see him effectively repost the same trolling crapfest on his talk, I'd support an immediate TWO WEEK block. NOt punitively, but preventatively. It's clear he's so irate about this that after a revert he found another avenue for his hateful rant, and will likely do it again and again until he's really stopped long enough to think about whether or not to continue here. 24 and 48 hour blocks only let him stew and brew, 2 weeks will certainly give him time to cool off. ThuranX 21:02, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I thought it was amusing that he was complaining about "false propaganda". True propaganda is, of course, fine. Doubtless it's an unintentional slip but a revealing one nonetheless. -- ChrisO 21:15, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Meh... Might be, might not be. remember, there's a lot of propaganda from the APA, AMA, and the .gov regarding the dangers of smoking. it's all true, but the bombastic presentations make it propaganda...ThuranX 21:19, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

You know, I hate the concept of voting on a permablock. I was devoting some soul-searching to the issue, until I hit on the idea of mentally replacing his comments about Arabs with equivalent remarks about Jews. After that, it was a wonder I'd ever thought about it at all:

• I dont even care if i'l get blocked. I'm tyred. Why those little shitty Hebrews just fuck all day and bring more shit to the world...the majority of Europe thinks of them as humans and wants to make peace with them. THEY ARE HORSE SHIT. Till all those Jews are shot-dead there wont be peace. They are the new Stallin, they even supported him at WW2!

The ban should obviously be extended indefinitely. <eleland/talkedits> 21:22, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

That rant is really quite inappropriate, and I can't imagine how he thought posting it would be anything but inflammatory. Looking over this issue, I am in favor of a longer block (longer than the current 31 hours) to give him time to cool off. I disagree, however, that it is time for an indefinite ban, but agree that these 1-2 day blocks are not having the desired effect. Would anyone object to me reblocking for 2 weeks? I'll implement it if there are no objections. If he comes back with renewed incivility after that, then I might support an indefinite block, but not yet. Picaroon (t) 21:31, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Object? hah, I explicitly support it! (let my support cancel out one no vote. lol) ThuranX 21:34, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Blocked for a year

This is unacceptable, see also his recent edit-summaries and given the long history of blocks for personal attacks, edit-warring and harassment, I've rewarded his bile with a really lengthy block. Raving like that is patent trolling and should not be permitted, and I hardly think his editing is POV-free either, if that's a specimen of his personal feelings. We would not permit anti-Semitism like this: nor should we allow Arabophobia, if that's a word. Moreschi 21:38, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Xenophobia. HalfShadow 21:40, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Concur in the block. The more I dig into his edits, the worse it looks. Raymond Arritt 21:42, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Good call. I would have done this myself had I been following this discussion. -- John Reaves 21:44, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the long block as well. It seems like this kind of behavior is going to cause a lot more damage to the project than any positive edits will help. delldot talk 21:50, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Technically, isn't it still anti-Semitism, since Arabs are Semites too? Anyway, I agree with the block - that sort of conduct is beyond the pale. -- ChrisO 21:53, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Just to note: the only reason I have not blocked indefinitely is because, apparently, this fella makes productive contributions. If in 12 months he's ready to come back and edit civilly and without POV-pushing/edit-warring, that's fine. If not, this is the final sanction before we ban him for good. Moreschi 21:55, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Agree with the year block. So, see you lot in 13 months time for the perma-banned discussion? LessHeard vanU 21:57, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Endorse block. Battleground-like edits by far overshadow the productive ones. Frankly, I wouldn't have minded an indefinite block, but I suppose that we can revisit the issue in 2008. — TKD::Talk 22:01, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages may not be the place for this hate campaigns. I would block indef after all the warnings received and the time invested from many of the community to deal with his inappropriate behavior, 1 year block is second best. Neozoon 23:06, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

A year is a good warning, in 2008 when he comes back, we keep a high standard for the guy. Next block should be indef. ((1 == 2) ? (('Stop') : ('Go')) 22:05, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Long overdue. MastCell 05:07, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Maybe someone should remove his racist rants on his talk page and at least mention that he's been blocked for a year. Right now it says he's blocked for only 31 hours.--Atlan (talk) 10:39, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

The user page notes the one-year block. I've blanked his talk page and denied his (e-mailed) unblock request. Rklawton 12:44, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I indef blocked this user back in June for similar editing, personal attacks, racism and sockpuppeting to avoid blocks. A few admins who should have known better all jumped in to defend him at the time and reduce his block. Thoroughly endorse, long overdue. Expect much sockpuppeting and IPs pleading for unblocks because we didn't understand his point, and see you all in 1 year and about a week for the indef block discussion (assuming he hasn't sockpuppeted his way to one before then. Neil ム 12:41, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

User:EdenHeroineGirl

This user just redirected her talk page into a talk page in the article space. I've talked to her before about this, so could someone else talk to her? She might listen to you guys. The Hybrid 20:21, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

message left. ThuranX 21:41, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

User:Buh6173

Buh6173 (talk · contribs) has been engaging in quite uncivil behavior in the Talk:Konjiki no Gash Bell!! pages. This manga/anime, which is known in English as Zatch Bell!, has had some changes in the dub which he feels are so major that there should be separate pages for the Japanese and English version, despite an agreement having been reached some time ago (before I came - there are editor-only comments on the various Zatch Bell pages that bear me out) to use the English names. He disagrees vehemently, comparing the American version to stuff like Cardcaptors (which has skipped episodes and changed characterizations, something the dub has yet to do) and snidefully insulting those who defend current policy by accusing them of liking a "crappy show". Without reaching any prior consensus with anyone, he changed redirects based on the Japanese names to have their own articles which were virtually identical to their English counterparts. Most of the redirects were fixed, but it seems he's determined to have his own way. An admin might need to get involved here. JuJube 20:24, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Sockpuppets on Invisible Man

I don't run up against this sort of thing very often. Apologies if there was some protocol I missed. The following five users:

• Ralfferly (talk · contribs)
• Chazbutcher (talk · contribs)
• Invisiblemanband (talk · contribs)
• Forgottenrebel (talk · contribs)
• 74.56.141.2 (talk · contribs)

are or have been engaged in editing around the page Invisible Man (band). Chaz Butcher is the name of the guy in the band. The band is at AFD where the above accounts are getting a bit aggressive. They're also reverting me on the page Invisible Man, a really important piece of literature they're using for promotion purposes, in my opinion. I argued that the band should be deleted, but even if it's kept, I think it belongs on the disambiguation page. I'm not an admin, not familiar with how to deal with sockpuppets, and I'm an involved editor too. Could someone help me sort this out? Thanks. --JayHenry 21:12, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Chazbutcher (talk · contribs) has been blocked for persistent vandalism, but 74.56.141.2 (talk · contribs) continues to revert the same material on Invisible Man (band). Ralfferly (talk · contribs), Chazbutcher (talk · contribs), and 74.56.141.2 (talk · contribs) have all weighed in on the AfD on the band. -Jmh123 01:30, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Forgive me if I'm confused. How does Forgottenrebel fall into this? -WarthogDemon 02:03, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any edits by that user on the Invisible Man (band) article or AfD. The only connection I can see is that User:Forgottenrebel's edits are almost all in late 2006 on the entry for the band Forgotten Rebels, which is Chaz Butcher's former band. -Jmh123 03:18, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

We're now getting page blanking of the Invisible Man (band) page from various IP's--one from India, one from the Czech Republic. Could the article be semi-protected while we wait out the AfD? Thanks. -Jmh123 05:36, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Matthew (talk · contribs)

Possibly running an automated script on his main account. Carbon Monoxide 21:14, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

User says this is not a bot, just a manually-assisted script. "AWB on wheels", he's calling it. That seems right to me, and it's harmless edits anyway. Moreschi 21:25, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Is that particularily bad? He doesn't seem to be harming anything as such. HalfShadow 21:25, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

No, it's fine. As I said, harmless edits anyway even if it were a bot (which it isn't). Moreschi 21:27, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Use of a user page for advertising

Maybe I'm being really, really, dense, but I can't actually find anything in policy on whether it's acceptable to use user pages for advertising. Maximus145 (talk · contribs) has (as well as some creating some really weird pages, now deleted) posted what appears to be blatant advertising as a user page. — iridescent (talk to me!) 21:25, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't that fall under soapboxing? HalfShadow 21:27, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

It does indeed fall under WP:SOAP. Videmus Omnia 21:31, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

It also falls under WP:CSD#G11, one of the criteria for speedy deletion. The userpage has been speedied. Aecis 21:32, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Regarding users WesleyDodds, Doczilla and J Greb

Recently I've been contributing highly to popular superhero articles, Batman, Superman (Kal-L) and Green Lantern. Firstly, here are the massive edits I did to Batman - shortly, WesleyDodds disagreed with one or two changes of mine yet, for no reason, chose to revert everything, including all of my other helpful edits. Then, I restored to my revision to Batman, revealing I followed WP:CMX/E guideline yet WesleyDodds returned and reverted everything again, even though he really disagreed with one or two things I did. At Kal-L, I contributed ok to the page (could have done a mistake or two accidentally, see , ) then Doczilla also probably saw one or two things incorrect and, instead of fixing it manually, had every single one of my useful edits reverted. Just because this user too felt one or two things I did may not have been correct he did not have just revert to the last revision. This had me very upset me. All of these users did not revert manually and, to save themselves time, chose to revert nonchalantly to the most recent revision. And finally for Green Lantern I did a major update, had probably one thing incorrect, and then Doczilla reverted it all pretty much because he saw one thing wrong, I had the word "fictional" taken out. During these times, Doczilla "threatens" me to not edit all at once or else I'll get flat-out reverted. Then says more in regards. J Greb does the same, he also tells me to now edit all at once. And similar warnings went on for a while, see my talk page. Honestly, there is no rule claiming that its disruptive to add a mass amount of edits in one instance and these users continue to enforce this upon me, tell me to stop or it will all get reverted just because they do not wanna manually correct what actually needs to be corrected. I again I restored the data to Green Lantern with the word "fictional" in, and Doczilla reverted all of my appropiate edits once more, telling me to stop making so many edits at one time.

What I would like is for someone to tell these users that it is perfectly okay for me to perform a massive amount of edits at once and that if they disagree with anything, they can edit the page manually instead of undoing all of my other appropiate edits. Please tell them to stop reverting the whole page because it is unfair and seems a bit like WP:OWN. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 21:45, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I've been watching this today at Kal-L, even stepping in to figure out one point of contention, the DABlink section. However, most of Sesshomaru's edits consist of adding blank spaces in some places, removing them in others, and various contentions about the word 'fictional' and various conjugations/tenses/parts of speech of the 'fict-' root. WP:COMIC calls for the implementation of 'Fictional' as a qualifier/descriptor to maintain 'out of universe' writing style. In regards to the Batman, I thoroughly concur with Wesley Dodds, I too would've reverted wholesale; there's no explanatino for the extra spacing and removed spaces, the word fictional's a part of guidelines, and so on. As for the other articles and arguments, they seem to be the same. I'd suggest that if the user is trying the same thing at different articles, and multiple editors continue to independently revert him, then perhaps it's not them who are at fault?

Finally, I can personally attest to the quality of all three accused editors in working towards consensus on talk pages. I've had agreements and disagreements with all three, but all are great editors who conduct themselves well.

(one postscript - I found this because I watch AN/I, not because I'm also aware Sesshomaru would be coming here, in fact, he said that a while ago, and I didn't see it, and so figured he'd dropped it, then my watchlist popped with this.) ThuranX 21:55, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I must thank ThuranX for letting me know about this, since Sesshomaru did not notify me after starting this. When someone makes a lot of changes to an article in a single posting with blatant errors, yes, that can get flatly reverted by people who know MOS, who know WikiProject guidelines, and who know from experience how these comic articles get edited. We know the history behind the guidelines and we know what kind of changes will simply get reverted by others. When one person makes a lot of changes all at once, the sheer volume of red lettering makes it very difficult to tease the exact changes apart. We have to read the entirety of both versions line by line every single time. What's ironic about this complaint is that, if you'll look at the edit history, you can see that after reverting, I did then go through examining Sess's changes and incorporating many of them into the articles.

This complaint is awfully premature. Looking at the edit history, anyone can see how little time has been spent trying to work these things out among ourselves. Sess hurled a WP:OWN complaint at me. Glancing at the edit history, I don't see that I'd worked on the Kal-L article since one day in January. Likewise, I have no particular history with the Green Lantern article.

To stick up for others getting this accusation, I must say that Wesley watches the Batman article very regularly. But frankly, the article needs it as it gets frequently vandalized and, due to the character's fame, frequently edited by newcomers who don't yet know how things work around here. It needs the ongoing attention of someone who really knows the article, who really knows its edit history, and who really knows our style guidelines. I can think of no one I'd rather have watching the Batman article than WesleyDodds. We want WesleyDodds watching Batman, we need WesleyDodds watching Batman, and that's a truth worth handling.

Sess asked for more feedback regarding what we didn't like about his edits, and yet he/she then gets up at arms because we took the time to answer. Looking at Sess's edit history, you'll see how little effort was made to work this out before jumping to AN/I. Sess came to my talk page to gripe about a revert I made, even though someone else reverted after me and therefore the reversion I'd previously made no longer applied before he/she even raised the issue. I edited one sentence after that without re-reverting anything, and that is when Sess started fussing at me. Doczilla 00:59, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

P.S. I'd say something more in support of J Greb too, but Sess's complaint against J Greb wasn't even enough of a complaint with substance to respond to, beyond what my edits in support of J Greb's edits have already effectively said. (Here's a weird aside: Sess-whatsit griped that I use too many talk page section headings during the very same weekend that somebody else griped that I should a lot more, one per comment.) Doczilla 03:10, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I echo ThuranX's comments. I can vouch for all three editors as being some of the best in the comics project. Equally those edits are actually pretty minor (odd messing around with spaces) and where they aren't they go against comics guidelines and I would also have reverted some of those edits if I'd seen them first.

I also feel other avenues should have been explored more thoroughly before bringing this up on the admin noticeboard. (Emperor 01:50, 8 October 2007 (UTC))

(ec) - Ok, I just went over the edits. Nothing spectacular in the revert. Though beyond what TX said above, I note that the user also apparently removed things like the default sort for the categories. I think at this point, the user should attempt to start a talk page duscussion about "Characters" vs. "Fictional characters" (Probably at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Comics.) Incidentally, I vaguely recall such a discussion in the past, and the concerns were that there are characterisations of real people in comics, as opposed to truly fictional characters. But anyway, I look forward to the discussion. - jc37 01:54, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I posted the past relevant WikiProject Comics talk page discussions on Sesshomaru's talk page. Here they are: , , , WesleyDodds 11:40, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

PAWNGAME

Would somebody please semi-protect PAWNGAME? It's getting hit hard by anons, I've been tyring to keep it attack-free, but it's impossible. I listed this at WP:RFPP, but it needs to be done now. Corvus cornix 22:52, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Semiprotected for 24 hours; don't want to do it for longer if it's at AfD as it prevents people improving it — iridescent (talk to me!) 22:54, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how it will ever be improved, but thanks. Corvus cornix 22:55, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't either (see my comments at the AfD) but what do I know - someone may find a Wired article or something about it — iridescent (talk to me!) 22:57, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Is Anti-anon predjudice the norm on Misplaced Pages?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A series of IP reverts today by Canadian Paul (talk · contribs) all had the edit summary "Anons don't get to decide our priority". The 'IP range' that Canadian Paul reverted is not a newbie... in fact they have been making very positive contributions to Misplaced Pages for quite a long time. Is this the sort of atmosphere that Misplaced Pages is trying to cultivate and promote? If the user were vandalising or trolling then, of course, standard edit rv's would be just fine. But the message that is being sent by Canadian Paul is the opposite of what Misplaced Pages stands for. "The encyclopedia that anyone can edit"????? that foundation was thrown completely out the window today by Mr. Paul and his "Anons don't get to decide our priority" edit summaries. WP:BITE, WP:CIVIL and WP:OWN all thrown out the window. Canadian Paul would do well to be reminded of that Misplaced Pages was built on the contributions of IP editors. 156.34.221.91 23:00, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Comment for context: Canadian Paul (talk · contribs)'s edits seem to have been in response to the edits by 74.105.128.49 (talk · contribs). Aecis 23:02, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

"Anons don't get to decide our priority" is antithetical to Misplaced Pages. We examine ideas based on their merits rather than on the contributor. Indeed, many registered users are just as anonymous as an IP since their accounts are not linked with a real-world identity. Rklawton 23:03, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Then again, usually, it is the members of a WikiProject who decide on an article's priority to that WikiProject, is it not? -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 23:04, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I believe the "We" would be "the Wikiproject". --Haemo 23:09, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

My only comment on this is that Anons don't get to decide our priority for the exact reason that registered users who aren't involved with the project don't get to decide our priority - they're not members of the project. Apparently, someone has decided to extrapolate my entire feelings about anonymous editors from a few edits. I never said "Anons don't get to edit Misplaced Pages" I said "they don't get to decide our priority" and that's as true for them as it is for any person, registered or not, who is not a member of our project. Feel free to check my edit history – with the exception of a fight that I had with User:Ryoung122, after which I apologized for my actions and settled the matter, I've never been uncivil on Misplaced Pages. Also, my contribution list shows that I've assessed hundreds of articles for WP:CANADA, so I have a solid basis behind my decisions on WP:CANADA's priorities. Cheers, CP 23:15, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps "our" should've been replaced with WP:CANADA project to clarify to the editor he wasn't getting slammed. I am an anon(currently not at my Static IP location) But my static IP IS in fact a member of a Wiki-project... one I was invited by a Wiki-admin to join. The anon in question edits Canadian music articles frequently. His contributions should hold some merit... regardless of whether he has a make-believe name ot not. 156.34.221.91 23:26, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps, and if so I apologize for not making myself more clear in my edit summaries. Note, however, that I never edited his priority ratings of Wikiproject:Canadian Music, just of those under Wikiproject:Canada. A certain band may be of mid, high or even top priority to Wikiproject:Canadian Music but, in the grand scheme of things, may not be as important to Misplaced Pages:Canada in general. Note here WP:CANADA's importance rankings. Unless they're the Canadian Beatles, it's very unlikely that any band is going to be ranked as "vital to Canada" as concepts like "Prime Minister of Canada," "Canadian Broadcasting Corporation" and "Toronto." I understand your concerns, and hope that you will Assume Good Faith concerning my explanation. I'm a little disappointed that User:Rklawton, who is an admin, couldn't do that for me, but que sera sera. Also, as an incidental Canadian Paul is not a "make-believe name," but a nickname that I've had since before I was on Misplaced Pages. It's more likely to identify me than something arbitrary. Cheers, CP 00:18, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

IPs only play "second fiddle" to registered editors when it comes to RfA participation, the ability to create articles, and the ability to upload images. Other than that, they are just as valuable as registered editors, and should be treated as such. EVula // talk // ☯ // 00:38, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I think its a fair comment to says thats only true in theory. Ip's are generally much less trusted than registered editors, their comments are more likely to be ignored, any major edits are more likely to be reverted, and they are more likely to be given vandalism warnings for edits that a registered user is unlikely to be warned for. It may be against the spirit of wikipedia, but there's nothing we can do about it, so many of us do trust ip's less, myself included on occasion, its just one of those things.--Jac16888 00:45, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree, just one of those facts of life things. Just look on it as "numerical profiling"! ---- WebHamster 00:48, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

It just occurred to me, that in some strange way, its almost like racism, and its actually very bad that its accepted, and so common all over wikipedia, like just the other day there was a discussion on here where a editor with other 8000 edits was reverting an IP's comments because they thought it was against the rules for unregistered users to participate in !votes and discussions and afd's etc, plus there was also a comment in this discussion by another user, possibly an admin, i forget, saying that it doesn't matter because anon comments are usually discarded by closing admins. This is really quite unacceptable, i think i wil have a go at writing an essay/guideline about it tommorrow --Jac16888 00:58, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Like racism? Really, that's the comparison you're going with? - CHAIRBOY (☎) 01:14, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Personally I'd say that it's more like ageism (I know I'm using the wrong term here, but hopefully it will be understood what I'm saying in a moment) – people who are younger generally have disadvantages such as lack of experience that allow older people to dismiss them, sometimes with good reason. Yet many many younger people have the wisdom, talent or maturity to stand alongside their older compatriots. Yet because some, maybe even a significant, amount of young people cause trouble and lack the wisdom, talent, maturity etc., young people as a whole get a bad reputation and are often dismissed. Replace "young people" with "people without accounts" and "older people" with "people with accounts" and the statement reads just as true. Cheers, CP 01:20, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

The difference, of course, is that kids can't help being young, but anons choose to be anon. It's a null program. People who make an account are tying their edits to an audit chain, building a chain of accountability and making a statement that they stand behind their record. An anon IP makes no such investment. Anonymous editing is a cherished part of Misplaced Pages's heritage and future and serves a great purpose, but in the same sense that people without established credit records can't expect the same buying power in real estate, anon IPs should understand the basic difference in their status compared to folks with accounts. If I were an anon editor, I could write this and never be concerned that it might gain me some long term enemy. But were I to run for RfB some day, someone might provide this diff and use it as PROOF that I'm part of some elitist conspiracy against the peace loving peoples of Anonyia. I'm putting my words out and taking responsibility for them. Why would an anon editor expect entitlement to the same treatment without that investment? - CHAIRBOY (☎) 01:30, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Interesting view, one that I'm not certain that I completely agree or disagree with. But that's probably just my accountability speaking. Haha.

Anyhow, I've defended myself twice against these accusations and hopefully shown that they are baseless without taking too much of a side in the overall debate. I'm going to stop paying attention to this incident, so if there is a serious concern from an admin who wants to talk about my behavior outside the context of this grand conspiracy of me hating everything anonymous, they can come speak to my on my talk page. Anyone who wishes to not assume good faith me can feel free to levy conspiracy theories, accusations, incivility and anything else they feel like in this little section and I won't hold them accountable, mainly because I won't see it/pay attention to it. I'm here to work on articles, not relive my high school days. I'm also removing all reminder of this nasty experience from my talk page as well. Cheers, CP 02:04, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

It depends upon the area. I check out both IP and registered red-linked editors the first time they pop up on my watch list. There are always a good handful of IP contributers to science articles--I sometimes use my IP at work to make edits to various articles. I've always been treated respectfully, even with one edit that seemed like vandalism (I deleted an extra line so the article wound up saying something silly).

As for project priorities, I invite outsiders with an interest in botany to come on by to WP:Plants and help us set priorities any time you have an idea that would improve that area on Misplaced Pages, anons and registered users. We have now and then been driven to fix something by an anon or registered user who is not a project member, and the door should always be open to contributions by anyone in the Misplaced Pages community. I hope WP:Canada considers this for the future. KP Botany 01:01, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

This is getting a little too dramatic for my liking. The timetable is this: I make a poorly worded edit summary as I attempt to explain why I'm lowering the priority of an article. Instead of "Anons don't get to decide our priority" I should have written "Non-project members don't get to decide WPCANADA's priority." No one is "closing the door" to anons editing articles related to WP:CANADA, certainly not me who represents WPCANADA not in the capacity of founder or director, but as mere editor. What we do close the door on, from my understanding, is non-project members deciding priority, because we've had problems in the past with "my favourite band" becoming Top priority in WPCANADA. I hope WPCANADA doesn't consider it, because I've spent my time carefully reading and formulating an understanding of what each of the class and priority rankings mean, which allows me and anyone else who has proven their understanding of these criterion by joining WPCANADA (well, I suppose not proven, but at least one is showing willingness) to more effectively implement the criteria. User:EVula has missed one important other thing that anonymous editors can't do, something else I'm involved in: reviewing Good Article nominations. This is not the first time something controversial I've done has been blown out of proportion. When I nominated an article for deletion one time, I was accused of attempting to commit "supercentenarian Holocaust" on Misplaced Pages. I made a (small) mistake in wording and apologized for it, and once again a big issue has blown up over it – thankfully not directed towards me, just peripherally. Cheers, CP 01:13, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I really think this should be the final word on the topic. Assume good faith, people! --Haemo 05:11, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

• It's really a matter of wheat and chaff. I often monitor IP editor recent changes. The overwhelming majority of IP edits are constructive. I'd even go so far as to say that most of the corrected misspellings and minor formatting improvements are done by IP editors. There is the one or two in ten that are vandals, but those are generally obvious. IP editors do a lot here. They should be afforded the same personal courtesy as a logged-in user. But having an account does make you more accountable for your actions, and gives you more credibility in discussion. - Crockspot 01:05, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Editwarring on Western Sahara articles

Koavf (talk · contribs), Wikima (talk · contribs), and A Jalil (talk · contribs) are engaging in slow-moving editwarring (slow-moving largely due to the fact Koavf is on 1RR per Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Koavf) on many Western Sahara-related articles. Koavf's revertwarring on these articles is what got him community banned in the first place (the arbitration case overturned it to give him another chance), and Jalil and Wikima spend a large proportion of their time undoing all of his changes.

As you can see in the edit histories of this article and this wikiproject, as well as the other pages in Wikima's recent contributions this is a long-term, continuing problem, and blocks aren't working (Koavf has been blocked a ton, while Wikima was blocked for 3RR this time last year). I'd like some suggestions on what should be done about this - blocks, paroles? (I'll say right off the bat that protection won't work, they'll just wait it out.) Picaroon (t) 23:30, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Defense You'll notice that I am posting on talk and not blind reverting, except in the case of vandalism (e.g.) I keep on trying to seek consensus on talk and have engaged an admin at Talk:Legal status of Western Sahara, who is apparently incapacitated; another admin agreed to assist and then never showed up on talk, despite several entreaties. Note that Jalil and Wikima are: redirecting Western Sahara articles to Morocco articles, deleting Western Sahara from relevant templates (and again), ruining the user templates at that same WikiProject they have been vandalizing, inserting irrelevant politicized asides in articles on flags and coats of arms, mass deleting relevant passages from articles (note that the latter deletes references to Moroccan human rights abuses), deleting criticism of Morocco from articles, taking out relevant stubs from articles, ignoring cogent logic from several users on some pages, and generally trolling my edits. I am trying to seek consensus on talk pages, and they are not. To presume that my editing is in the same class as theirs is simply false balance, and I have requested admin intervention on several occasions. In the one case where I got it (Legal status of Western Sahara), they simply ignored the admin's injunction and deleted scholarly source citations because it disagreed with their pro-Moroccan political agenda. That's to say nothing of the POV forks, copy-and-paste violations, reversion of comments on talk, controversial page moves, etc. that have been happening with these two users for over a year now. Will some admin please deal with their nonsense? -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 23:49, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I used to be part of this war; this is my understanding of those involved last time I checked:

• Wikima (talk · contribs) — fanatically biased towards all things pro-Morocco; I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he works for the Moroccan government.
• A Jalil (talk · contribs) — clearly biased towards Morocco, but can at least be communicated with (perhaps he just doesn't see the bias).
• Koavf (talk · contribs) — means well in his attempts to curb Wikima and A Jalil, but plays their game instead of trying to use Misplaced Pages's dispute resolution process (which, in his defense, has IMO utterly failed this issue so far - its appearance here is encouraging, however).

I don't think Wikima or A Jalil should ever be allowed to edit anything remotely related to Morocco or Western Sahara or the SADR ever again, but failing that I would at least hope their edits were reviewed closely for a good long while to ensure NPOV. Koavf's position, IMO, has not always necessarily been on the side of reason, but has been on the side against those who are against reason. I think you'll find he will appear to behave more once this issue is actually addressed by administrators, instead of being continually ignored. ¦ Reisio 00:38, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Reisio, you used to be part of the war defending Koavf's positions, and it is good to mention. Your input above follows the same path. You were less fanatic than Koavf is, but your talk page speaks for itself about your editing attitude, the discussions we had with you, and your brawls with others, that in the end lead you to being blocked. Saying that you "think you'll find he will appear to behave more once this issue is actually addressed by administrators" is completely ridiculous. He was warned, short-blocked and long-blocked, and indef-blocked, and there is no change at all in his behaviour. Having other editors check my changes if they are pro-Morocco POV is more than welcome. Actually my action (and Wikima's) has almost always been a reaction to Koavf's POV editing, rather than the opposite contarely to what Reisio alledges above.--A Jalil 14:02, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

It has been clear to me for a while now that all three editors should be under the same parole. It seems that every block that Koavf has had has been a result of reciprocal edit warring, often in tandem, by A Jalil and Wikima. It's been going on across dozens of articles for months now. Dmcdevit·t 00:43, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Koavf has been on the 1RR parole and what is the result?, to revert every other day, or a couple of days?. I have taken this problem to your attention before. The admin who was intervening is on a wiki-break (car accident). What is needed is that an admin to step in and go through all the articles in conflict. The best example is that lately an admin has managed to settle a very disputed article, though not without problems with koavf. That is a good example to follow.--A Jalil 14:02, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Parole I would be fine with some kind of oversight (in point of fact, that is precisely what I have asked for on several occasions here at AN/I); would someone please step up to do that? Some kind of intervention or mediation on these pages? Again, I would like to point out that a strict equivalence between every edit they have made and I have made is false balance; I have made nowhere near as egregious edits as they have. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 01:07, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Judging by your behaviour under 1RR parole, I wonder if parole has any impact on edit-warring.--A Jalil 14:02, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

The main issue here is the fact that the pro-Polisario activist Koavf (in addition to Arre), has loaded Misplaced Pages with pro-Polisario content to a great number of articles. Western Sahara has more space on Misplaced Pages than the vast majority of African nations. We (I, wikima, Juiced Lemon, and Collounsbury, ..) have been removing that POV content from different articles only to find he reverted back to his edit. He actually started the revert process immediately after being unblocked. The articles being the subject of trouble all have one of the following points:

• Koavf is using Western Sahara, the disputed territory, and the SADR, the govt-in-exile of the the Polisario Front, interchangeably and using the flag of the SADR to represent WS. That is the reason of trouble in these articles: WikiProject Western Sahara, Gallery of flags with crescents, Flags of Africa, and Pan-Arab colors.
• Western Sahara has no flag nor coats of arms, but Koavf insists on it having them, and imposing or redirecting to the Polisario/SADR flag and coa on WS. We suggested that the article of flag of Western Sahara makes mention that there is no such for the disputed territory, but there are two competing flags claiming to represent the territory and have them listed. He refused. An admin intervened to edit the article to a neutral approach and is actually what we suggested.
• Magnifying sporadic riots that happen once in a half year by a few stone throwing teanagers as an "ongoing campaign". Sahrawi Association of Victims of Grave Human Rights Violations Committed by the Moroccan State, (what a title!!).
• Making the SADR, a government in exile of the Polisario Front, look as a sovereign state and Africa topic.
• Reverting some articles to nearly a two year old version, loaded with Pro-Polisario POV, in disregard of many editors contribution. Portal:Western Sahara/Intro.
• In addition to portraying WS as occupied instead of disputed, and calling the area to the east of the military berm as a free zone, a term used exclusively by the SADR organs. Needless to say that it goes well with what Koavf openly states in his user page that he is on Misplaced Pages to represent the interests of the SADR.

An admin, Zscout370, with better knowledge about flags has solved a couple of articles' troubles. What we need is another dedicated admin to tackle the other subjects. I am quite confident that an admin's intervention, looking from a neutral perspective, will solve most of these problems.

Unfortunately, after nearly half a year of block, the behaviour of Koavf is the same. The same pro-Polisario POV pushing, and the same disruptive behaviour. The WS related disruption by koavf is visible only because there are people to oppose it. What about the week-long block related to disruptive page moving?, shortened only due to the admin's kindness?, in addition to more complaints. For those who think Koavf only has trouble on WS related pages.--A Jalil 14:02, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Neolestat

I speedied this new page last night because it looked like spamming, and also because it did look like the creator of this page had had several attempts to create it previously, using different user names. Page has now been deleted. Could an admin look at attempts to create this page &, well, not quite sock-puppetry? Thanks --Rodhullandemu (talk - contribs) 23:53, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

It's only been created, then deleted once... — madman bum and angel 04:42, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

User:Arthur Rubin's block of 172.192.43.160

Because I've previously interacted with him under another IP address, even though that interaction was removal of apparent vandalism, I'm asking review of my block. There's not enough room in "block reasons" for my reasons:

1. Adding words (not terms) which may be calques from German into the category Category:German loanwords, in spite of the clear wording of the CfD result of Category:Calques from German
2. Adding words which are clearly not from German into that category.
3. Adding redirects to that category
4. Adding all words which contain the character string "LOG" to the log article, even if not derived from the Greek.
5. Doing all of these after I've explained that I don't consider them accurate
6. Re-doing all of these while claiming to be reverting my vandalism.
7. Adding mysterious alternate spellings to articles.

As my interaction with him was only in response to vandalism reports under his previous IP address, I don't think I should be considered an "involved admin". I've only reverted those changes which I consider clearly wrong; if I'm wrong, and he does understand English well, some other changes may be subtle vandalism, which will require an expert opinion. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 00:08, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

65.188.22.40

I reverted ~6 edits of trolling by 65.188.22.40 (talk · contribs) to the talk page of apparantly-gone User:The Evil Spartan and left him a {{uw-vandalism3}} template. He replied to it by demanding arbitration. I'm not sure if he means the ArbComm or arbitration. Could an admin please look into this? -Jéské 00:11, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

It means "you should ignore ranting and raving from a troll." HTH. Raymond Arritt 00:15, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

It looks like it could possibly be trolling, but at least personal attacks ("You odd for a hristian. It explains why hristians make lousy friends.")

But it certainly is curious how, before these edits to User talk:The Evil Spartan, he hadn't edited for nearly a week prior? He had been accused by TES of trolling three weeks ago, and I don't know why he was leaving comments for TES; they seemed really irrelevant to anything, so this does seem like trolling. Ksy92003(talk) 00:22, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

He left this message for FloNight - he's thinking of seeking an ArbCom ruling against everyone saying he is trolling and/or vandalizing, claiming we're violating WP:NPA. -Jéské 00:26, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Interesting... I was recently involved in a situation where somebody was telling me that it was a personal attack when I suggested that he and another user were meatpuppets... I didn't accuse them, I only suggested that it was possible. I'm not sure that you can have a strong case for somebody making personal attacks towards you if they feel you're trolling, but either way, it isn't WP:NPA if you have strong evidence that supports your accusation. Ksy92003(talk) 00:39, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Inappropriate username

Username is SexTard. jonathan (talk — contribs) 00:34, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

WP:UAA is thataways. I'll file it for you. -Jéské 00:37, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

And filed. -Jéské 00:42, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

How did you know about this? S/he hasn't even made any edits, so how did you know that there was a user with that name? Ksy92003(talk) 00:57, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Try Special:Recentchanges; that also covers logs. -Jéské 00:59, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

User creation log too. —Wknight94 (talk) 01:00, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

There is a "new usernames" page somewhere for seeing this stuff, plus registrations show up on the recent changes page--Jac16888 01:01, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

#cvn-wp-en also lists inappropriate names when they are created. *Cremepuff222* 01:31, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

1 year block of anon making death threats

I've blocked an anon user for 1 year, anonymous users only, for making death threats and other threatening comments. , . Those edits to my user and talk pages where there untouched for nearly 3 hours. The anon didn't make any other edits after the ones made to my userpage but I felt obliged to block the address for 1 year due to the severity of the threats. I bring this action here to see if anyone disagrees with it. KOS | talk 00:41, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Making death threats are very serious offenses. I believe that an indefinite ban should be in order for anybody who threatens another. Ksy92003(talk) 00:43, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

IPs are almost never indef'd unless they're proxies. -Jéské 00:45, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, didn't notice that they were anons... when I looked at the section heading, the thing that jumped out at me was "death threats" and I overlooked the "anon" word. Ksy92003(talk) 00:52, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Likely sock of User:Renandchi2, FWIW. Raymond Arritt 00:57, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Very likely. But I've shortened the block to 31 hours; it's a dynamic DSL line. --jpgordon 01:19, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Was just going to suggest the same. ;-) Cbrown1023 talk 01:29, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Tagged using {{IPsock}}. --əˈnongahy ♫Look What I've Done!♫ 01:27, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Yom Kippur

Hi! David Adam Lewis (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been editing this and a number of other Judaism-related articles to have them reflect academic and critical perspectives. While I agree that these perspectives are currently often underrepresented in articles on Jewish subjects and note that much of the material added has been of quality, I have attempted to explain to the user that traditional religious perspectives, agree with them or not, are also important perspectives in traditional religious topics and I have encouraged adding in content on more modern prespectives without overwriting material representing persepectives he disagrees with, as well as discussing major rewrites with other editors and obtaining consensus. As can be seen on User Talk:David Adam Lewis, and Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Judaism#Recent changes, there has been an ongoing dispute covering a number of articles. The user has chosen to ignore my advice, indicating that in his view he is entitled to make these changes and WP:REVERT prohibits reverting over an edit dispute.

Because this user's edits are definitely not vandalism and if this editor could be encouraged to work with others the project might be improved, I would appreciate it if another administrator would review the dispute to determine whether I have acted appropriately. Best, --Shirahadasha 01:42, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Spammer creating multiple user accounts

• Freeweddingmusicsample (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Picturephotodigital (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Traveltraveleverywhere (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

These new usernames have been created in the last hour or so, and each has a similar plug for a commercial website on its userpage. I've {{db-spam}}'ed the userpages and assumed the admin who deleted the userpage would take care of the name block without my having to go to WP:UAA. These accounts are likely being created by the same person, though, and more may have gotten through before I noticed these three, and there may be more on the way. Would it be proper to request a block of the underlying IP? --Dynaflow babble 01:55, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

More:

• Freeonlinegamecheat (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Getacaijuice (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

--Dynaflow babble 02:03, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

• I'd indef blocked one of them, with an IP block. Hopefully that ends this. --Haemo 02:29, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Can someone also do a name block on Picturephotodigital and Getacaijuice per the promotional-usernames clause in WP:U? --Dynaflow babble 05:26, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Inappropriate edit summary at Historical pederastic couples

Misplaced Pages has had some serious problems with paedophile activists in the past. I believe that this issue may have reared its ugly head again in Historical pederastic couples, which currently has a four-paragraph introduction devoid of any reliable or verifiable sources, and presenting man-boy sexual relationships in an absurdly positive light; e.g., the only "source" being an ambiguously-named author supposedly claiming that pederasty was mandated by law in antiquity, and referring to such relations in glowingly positive terms.

I deleted that material in accord with WP:V, along with several blatant BLP violations naming living people who were boys at the time that men were having sex with them, which had been removed before. I have been reverted four times now in the past two days, most recently by an editor whose edit summary is a blatant and harsh personal attack.

This raises issues which would belong on the BLP, personal attack, reliable sources, and fringe theory noticeboards. So I am raising it here in hopes that some action can be taken which will prevent bringing the project into further disrepute. Thank you. 1of3 03:34, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

My first instinct is to block User:Haiduc for about 2 days to a week for a nasty personal attack. What do other people think? ((1 == 2) ? (('Stop') : ('Go')) 03:50, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I just went with my instinct, still interested in what others think. ((1 == 2) ? (('Stop') : ('Go')) 03:54, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

You're not wrong.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 04:04, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Haiduc's comment may have been uncalled for, but I can't say it deserves a block. Note that the previous edit summary mentioned 'men porking boys' and that 1of3 started this argument by accusing Haiduc's side of being 'boylove apologists' (see the talk page).

In addition, I'd say that his mass removal borders on vandalism. The introductory paragraphs could stand some improvement, but I see them as fairly neutral - certainly not advocacy for pederasty, as 1of3 claimed. The way, the truth, and the light 04:09, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, complaining that text is "biased in favor of men porking boys" is not a personal attack by any means. It is a critique of content, which is encouraged and not censored for minors or delicate sensibilities. Saying that, "I'm not going to be arguing the merits of something that so obviously brings the project into disrepute, especially not with 'boylove' apologists," is not an accusation of anyone in particular, and if any of the people involved do happen to be such apologists, referring to them as a group is not a personal attack. We must have the freedom to call a spade a spade when the reputation of the project is at risk. As for the text in question:

• "love affairs between adult men and adolescent boys"
• "classical pederasty ... has both love and mentoring as principal characteristics"
• "emulation of the Socratic ideal"
• "In antiquity pederasty was sometimes mandated by law, a requirement eventually superseded under the early Christians by prohibition under pain of death or castration for both partners. This move was impelled at least in part by their intent to promote Christianity.... This was accomplished by the systematic destruction of ... classical pederasty, which was an important educational and cultural aspect" -- this is where the sole reference of the introduction is given as, "In Sparta, the ephors fined any eligible man who did not love a boy, because, despite his own excellence, he failed to make a beloved 'similar to himself.' Aelian, Var. Hist., III.10" -- just how are we supposed to verify that?
• "Age-structured, in which men pair up with boys"
• "classical pederasty, shudo, and Florentine sodomy" -- note that "Florentine sodomy" is wikilinked to the separate words, leaving the term undefined
• "their sexual phase lasts only until the coming of age of the younger member. The friendship, however, may continue indefinitely and is seen as one of the chief benefits of such relationships."

If you think the text those excerpts are from isn't biased, tell me: Where is the discussion of rape, child sexual abuse, emotional trauma, abuse of positions of authority, shattered lives, destroyed reputations, and peer bullying? 1of3 04:22, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

As I said, it's not perfect. There are a few statements there I find biased, but overall it's simply a factual account of historical pederasty. The solution is for someone interested to fix it, not delete it.

As for not mentioning negative aspects of pederasty, that's just not the topic of the article. A short section treating those in historical context, and linking to other articles about the topic, would not be a bad addition - but again, someone needs to write it. I'm not going to be the one to do it; the article simply isn't in my particular interest. The way, the truth, and the light 05:28, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Apparently Jimbo has a different opinion. Since when are negative aspects "just not the topic" of an article about relationships? Are you going to tell me that Marriage should not refer to divorce? I doubt it. 1of3 05:39, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

That message by Jimbo has absolutely nothing to do with my reply. As for negative aspects, I explicitly said that it would be desirable to include something about them - just not to make them the central subject of the article. The way, the truth, and the light 05:43, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I think it was way too harsh--especially if this is the user's first offense. The edit summary was uncalled for, but I can think of more than one user (all of them admins) who regularly communicate just as abusively in their edits summaries. A warning would have sufficed.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 03:56, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I am not an admin (just putting in my 3 cents) but I think for something like the above, it should be longer than a week, but hopefully that week will give Haiduc time to realize you just don't put crap like that on Wikipeda...or anywhere for that matter. I think Until(1 == 2) was right in blocking Haiduc. - NeutralHomer 04:02, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

"Crap like" what? Are you referring to the personal attack or the user's editorial focus?--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 04:04, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

The edit comment was not only so offensive I thought it was likely to cause disruption by driving off contributors, but it also stays in the edit history of that article forever. That sort of nastiness cannot be allowed, and if you know other editors who regularly talk that way, let me know about them. ((1 == 2) ? (('Stop') : ('Go')) 04:07, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Lol, believe me, you already know about them, and they have never been blocked and never will be. --The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 04:09, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

It was not a first offense. I was implied to be "like a feudal lord issuing fiats and pillaging and burning" on the talk page, after which I specifically cautioned against such attacks. 1of3 04:12, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Temporary fix for BLP concerns:, I have commented out the section on the 20th and 21st century, pending further discussion. I recognize not all the people are living, that some of the relationships were freely acknowledged, that a few may have been sufficiently documented and notable to be included in any event. I also realise that not all of them were in fact sexual, but including them in an article on "pederastic couples' when they many not meet that definition would seem to be itself a BLP violation. I will have no hesitation in blocking anyone who reverts this section as a while, pending the necessary discussion. Anyone who reverts a particular item should be very sure of the justification, and should discuss it on the article talk page first. I regard this as a temporary fix, not a solution. DGG (talk) 04:22, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I would support unblocking Haiduc so he can participate in the discussion, if he agrees not to edit the article in the interim. DGG (talk) 04:39, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

As the aggrieved party, I would agree with this. 1of3 04:47, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

So it was never about the personal attack, was it? It was just an excuse to get rid of someone you disagreed with on an article. Isn't that dishonest? The way, the truth, and the light 05:28, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

He didn't even ask for a block. And he wanted the person back to discuss the matter. So... no, not dishonest. ((1 == 2) ? (('Stop') : ('Go')) 05:30, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I did not want a block; what could possibly help defuse tensions any less? I was hoping for someone to revert back to my version, protect the page for edit warring, and give Haiduc a stern talking to about BLP, V, and RS concerns on the article's talk page. 1of3 05:39, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

OK, I apologize for any improper assumption about you. I conflated the motives of you and the blocking admin, assuming you were in essential agreement. The way, the truth, and the light 07:46, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

• I think that a week's block is rather excessive in this situation. Yes, Haiduc's edit summary was a personal attack, and a bad move. However, 1of3 provoked Haiduc by callling him a "boylove apologist" (the comment is clearly directed at Haiduc, the primary contributor to that article). 1of3 also completely failed to assume good faith (as can be seen in the discussion at Talk:Historical pederastic couples#The intro). I think that there's fault on both sides here, and the best thing would be for everyone involved to take a deep breath and try to engage politely. Yes, 1of3, you do have to discuss this with Haiduc and any other interested editors. Misplaced Pages is based on consensus, and it's all the more important on controversial topics that editors discuss major changes rather than edit warring.
  I think that Haiduc's block should either be removed or shortened to about 24 hours — that would seem more commensurate to the offence.
  Disclaimer: I have had past dealings with Haiduc at Homosexuality in ancient Greece when that article was subject to disruptive editing and edit warring by a persistent problem editor. That editor eventually resorted to a death threat in an attempt to get his way, and was banned. During that (quite stressful) period, Haiduc maintained an even keel and behaved admirably. He also did a fine job providing reliable sources for that article as the problem editor demanded. Based on that experience, I would expect that Haiduc would work to improve Historical pederastic couples and resolve the NPOV concerns to everyone's satisfaction. It seems to me that 1of3's unilateral approach caused unnecessary drama and tension; I hope that the situation can be resolved without further name-calling or personal attacks from anyone. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 07:34, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
  • I've also had a previous encounter with Haiduc and I get the impression that he can be difficult to deal with. Nevertheless, he seems to be a predominantly good contributor (seeing his history) - I agree with you on that. The way, the truth, and the light 07:46, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
  • I take exception to this accusation that I directed any sort of comment at Haiduc. When I said, "I'm not going to be arguing ... with 'boylove' apologists," Haiduc hadn't yet reverted me. At that point he hadn't edited any of the article since my first edit to it, so how was I supposed to know that he was a major let alone the primary contributor? I didn't even know that until I read the above comments just now. The two editors who had reverted me at the point I made the "boylove" comment were User:Welland R and User:The Wikipedist, and without regard to any motives that people might impugn upon me, I was certainly not calling either of them boylove apologists. As should be abundantly clear from the sentence structure ("I'm not going to be arguing the merits of something that so obviously brings the project into disrepute, especially not with 'boylove' apologists.") the only people I thought might be the apologists were the people who wrote the terribly biased introduction to that article. It is no secret that pedophile activists have in the past knowingly collaborated to bias pertinent Misplaced Pages articles. Must my assumption of good faith be so broad as to forget everything I know about those incidents and deny that they might ever repeat? Does assuming good faith mean I must believe that those who have glorified pederasty in several paragraphs of unsourced and highly questionable text can have no ulterior motives for doing so? I do not think so. My initial assumption of good faith was utterly abolished when I saw that the obvious BLP violations removed weeks ago had been re-inserted. Nevertheless, I hold no ill will towards Haiduc; that I reserve solely for his biased edits. I hope that we are still afforded the opportunity to call edits biased when we see them as such, or is that no longer considered civil by those with the necessary saintliness to pass RFA? 1of3 08:31, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
    • It's fine to identify bias in edits, but don't attribute motivations to the authors of those edits unless you've got solid evidence. I don't see that here. (Incidentally, removing this sentence from your comment was a good move — the opinion it suggests is, I believe, unsupported by the scholarship on the subject.) —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 09:02, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
      • Where did I attribute motivations to any author personally? I know full well that we can describe groups such as "boylove apologists" which may or may not be empty, and doing so is not a personal attack. Are you saying it is, or that it's not civil to do so, or something else? What do we civilly call groups with suspect motivations in that regard, then? 1of3 14:59, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

1of3, what "group" are you referring to when you talk of "boylove apologists" in this context? Is it the group of editors who have contributed to the article? I believe your comment is defamatory, uncivil and unsupported by the context of the debate. I deleted your comment from the article's talk page in order to protect both you and Misplaced Pages from disruption or legal threats, and left an appropriate warning message on your talk page. You chose to both ignore the warning and re-insert your comment. Emotive subjects (such as the article in question) require IMO a very high standard of civility in order to facilitate positive encyclopaedic edits. Comments which could defame or wrongly label editors are counter-productive. DuncanHill 15:22, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

They are nothing more than what the indefinite noun phrase specifies, just like "Rotary Club members who advocate wife-beating" may or may not be an empty group. There is no personal attack or incivility in either hypothesizing that group's existence or stating opinions about them, and you would never suggest there was until edits start appearing in articles, claiming that the first Rotary Clubs mandated wife-beating in their by-laws. Then suddenly it becomes "defamatory and uncivil" to even suggest they exist. Poppycock! Such a claim strikes a blow against the project's ability to defend it's mission. Please review WP:NPA with particular attention to the difference between referring to persons, "individual contributors," and groups, for whom there is no such prohibition and with good reason. Have you, per chance, ever used the term "vandals?" To whom were you referring? 1of3 15:56, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

As I am no longer able to maintain my assumption of good faith I am withdrawing from this debate. I shall remove the article and its talk page from my watchlist, and shall cease adding wikilinks or removing obviously inappropriate entries from it (which I have done in the past). I have indeed used the term "vandal" - but only in reference to editors who have been obviously vandalising Misplaced Pages, and only in a way that is appropriate to the context of its use. DuncanHill 16:05, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Who doesn't wish for a bright-line rule for vandalism, which is often not clear cut, or POV advocacy, which is almost always not clear cut? 1of3 16:10, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Looks like Haiduc lost his temper in any already heated dispute (1of3 was hardly saintly in his use of edit summaries) - it happens. The comment was totally out of line but it was however a first block so I think a week is rather harsh. I agree that 24 hours would seem appropriate. WjBscribe 08:09, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

• I'm frankly surprised that nobody warned 1 of 3 for his vandalising of the article. He deleted almost half the article on more than one occasion. Just because material is not verifiable online does not mean it is not verifiable at all, and the article cites extensive references. I support unblocking Haiduc, who obviously lost his temper in the edit summary. He is a solid, scholarly contributer who has helped the project immeasurably. This one block seems clearly punitive to me. Also, as to the BLP concerns, I fail to see how deleting every entry in the subsection 20th and 21st century helps the article or project. Many entries were not BLP violations at all, and the article about Alexander Ziegler, whose entry in the pedarsty article so concerned a few editors, mentions the scandal and name of the youth in question. It seems clear to me that this issue compels people into knee jerk reactions, and I would invite people to look at the article (and its editors) dispassionately. Jeffpw 08:24, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Since when is removing any amount of unsourced material considered vandalism? The only source provided in the material I removed, apart from the obvious BLP violations, was a citation to "Aelian, Var. Hist., III.10." Given that there are three Aelians, that is not even a verifiable reference and thus is also subject to removal as WP:V plainly states. Moreover, even if some classics expert can verify it, it was used in support of statements which it does not support, as is clear from the sentence at the beginning of its footnote, which refers to Spartans exclusively, and saying nothing about Christians. 1of3 08:38, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

"Aelian, Var. Hist." refers to the Varia Historia of Claudius Aelianus. I've disambiguated the Aelian link in the article. It doesn't look to me as if the citation is trying to support anything about Christians; it's supporting the clause "In antiquity pederasty was sometimes mandated by law". But this is a content dispute which should be dealt with on the article's talk page, not here. Many of the comments you've tagged as problematic could be seen as supported by later cited material in the article. You should have raised your concerns with the article's editors, rather than deleting the entire introduction. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 09:02, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Our article on Claudius_Aelianus#Varia_Historia says, "He is not perfectly trustworthy in details, and his agenda is always to inculcate culturally "correct" Stoic opinions, perhaps so that his readers will not feel guilty." Is anyone seriously purporting that this is a reliable source? 1of3 14:53, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

True, the editors using the source need to make the readers aware of this. But that requires careful judgment, so much in fact that we should probably defer to qualified secondary sources to interpret Claudius Aelianus for us. To be clear, historical works like this should be treated with caution, but equally you will need a secondary source to back up the assertion (probably correct) that Aelianus was writing with an agenda. The concept of reliable sources is a tricky one to apply to primary historical sources. In one sense they are all unreliable unless a secondary source interprets them. In another sense they are less prone to POV interpretation by the same secondary sources. It is often best to present both the primary material and any conflicting secondary interpretations by later writers (in this case that could be any later writer from the time of Aelianus up to the present day). No-one ever said history, or writing an encyclopedia, was simple. Carcharoth 16:18, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I think 1of3 was a bit uncivil to say the least in his own edit summaries, even if they can't be classified as personal attacks per se -- he meant his comment as an insult and that is a sentiment that showed through brilliantly. His edits could've been summarized by simply explaining the need for those edits. It wasn't necessary to refer to the other editor, especially in the way that he did, which generally will end up inviting more edit warring (not to say the other editor wasn't also guilty of the same thing). That said, the intro was in desperate need of cleanup because it sounded like an article you might find in a pro-pedophilia newsletter. This should definitely not have been remedied by deleting nearly the entire thing though. I tried to clean it up as best I could, by removing the POV remarks and conclusions while leaving only the facts, even if many of them are in need of sources.

Not to nitpick here, but the article does not lack either sources or references. What it lacks, and has been tagged as such, are inline citations. I haven't a doubt that Haiduc would be fixing that problem were he not blocked. The other articles he has edited, while contentious, have certainly been grounded in fact. Jeffpw 09:59, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Just a note, someone above says they are surprised that no-one warned 1of3, in fact I did, specifically about his defamatory comments accusing Misplaced Pages editors of being "boylove apologists". I also removed his comment to that effect from the article talk page for that reason, however he subsequently reverted and restored his comment. I did not get further involved as I do not wish to get into a dispute with an editor who uses such language. DuncanHill 10:48, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, DuncanHill. I just saw your warning to 1 of 3 on his talkpage. It's nice to see that somebody looking at this dispute was able to remain objective. Jeffpw 12:10, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I note the version Halduc reverted to included such fine encyclopaedic content as "drama teacher David Le Brocq, twenty seven at the time, returned the love shown him by Karl Donaldson, his fifteen year old pupil, engaging in a six-month long relationship". The article is, at the moment, rubbish. Every unreferenced "couple" in that article should be removed; a section entitled "known or presumed pederastic couples" is also inherently non-neutral. It should be "known" only, and avoid presuming anything. Neil ム 12:32, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

As User:Until(1 == 2) was asking for opinions on the block, I think the block was a bit hasty and a stern warning would have been sufficient. As others have said, it is also a bit long. How about reducing the block to 24 or 48 hours? As other have pointed out, Haiduc has done good work on articles in this area. Carcharoth 12:45, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

In deference to the wishes to discuss BLP issues with Haiduc and concerns about sternness, I have reduced the block to 24 hours. It is still not an appropriate response though, but 1 week for a first offense is perhaps a little long, so I reconsidered. ((1 == 2) ? (('Stop') : ('Go')) 14:44, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. I wish we could relieve wikistress as easily as we block users. 1of3 15:00, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

SkiersBot

SkiersBot (talk · contribs) has been mistagging articles related to Dungeons & Dragons as stub-class articles of WikiProject Comics; could someone block it until User:SkierRMH sees the comments I left for him about it? -Jéské 05:14, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Done. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 05:29, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Could I get some help undoing his edits? -Jéské 06:23, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Attempted harassment measures

Frater210 has indicated on his talk page after uncivilly responding about NPOV violations that he is attempting to find information about me and ThuranX to harass us, as seen at this forum thread. This seems to cross the line into potential harassment, and I would like some input on the matter. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 05:30, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

To expand on this report, the user, who identifies himself as the American film producer Don Murphy, has been blocked as a sockpuppet of ColScott. I've researched this situation further, and I found previous discussion on this matter here, here, and here. There is also discussion at Talk:Don Murphy about inclusion of his official site due to examples on his forum of his attempts to find out information about users with whom he enters disputes -- such threads on his official forum are found at the aforementioned forum thread and here as well. His grudge seems to be centered on the fact that his article has been vandalized a few times, leading him to rail against Misplaced Pages and attempt to put his own article up for AfD. From what I've seen in discussions, there's obviously vigilance against this user and his sockpuppets, but what concerns me is the attempt to acquire personal information, the conduct of which implies intended harassment. What are the options in which off-wiki legal action can be taken against this malicious behavior? —Erik (talk • contrib) - 15:11, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Removal of citations

User:Comatose51 has recently removed/deleted a bunch of citations with the (seemingly false) statement "Remove Stratfor link and the statement it references because it requires a paid login. Stop linking to them. It is against Misplaced Pages policy.". As WP:V doesn't seem to suggest there is any such policy, and it seems counter-productive and against the rules of common sense (we often reference New York Times articles which require a membership to view, as valid citations - we just get other members to vouch for the contents of the web archive if we have any doubts) - I'd request that these edits all be reverted. Sherurcij 06:04, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

It seems we've recently made our Misplaced Pages:External links page less clear, and that as a result it was being applied to references. I've explained to the user in question why that's wrong, and I believe all the changes made under that mistaken application have now been undone. - Nunh-huh 06:12, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I remember reading that the NYT archives will soon (or already are) free to view. It seems that the "pay for access" model (for newspapers at least) is finally giving way to the "get the money through advertising" model. Carcharoth 12:30, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

It's not quite that clear cut - the NY Times is making everything pre-1923 free, because that's all public domain, and they are also making everything since 1981 free, presumably since that stuff's all digitized already. Confusingly, for articles that were published between 1923 and 1981, some will be free and some will not. Natalie 15:22, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Requesting independent review of an arbcom enforcement request

This has been on the arbcom enforcement board for two days without a response. I think it's legit and enforceable, but since I've blocked this editor more than once before it may be a better deterrent if a completely different sysop intervenes this time. Durova 07:19, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

They don't look like obvious reverts to me (especially as they are not the same edit, seem correct, and are well explained), but could be seen as such. I will tell him to be careful and remember his restrictions in future. Neil ム 12:16, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

In general, it would be a good thing if a few more admins watchlisted and responded to reports at WP:AE. We have just a couple of people specializing there (Thatcher131 has been the most active), but it's labor-intensive, burnout-inducing duty if performed in excess and needs to be spread around more. (I try to deal with some of them myself, but since the editors involved are often people I've had to be giving procedural advice to with my clerk hat on, often I'm not the best one for it.) Newyorkbrad 12:26, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd already placed a block and was trying to state that on the various pages this issue has been raised when Neil reached his differing conclusion above. I do think it was a clear '2RR violation' (as, in fact, the user himself admits). Normally I might have left that for someone else to block if they felt the need as I'm not big on blocks in general and found the 'forum shopping' on this slightly distasteful, but he'd just been warned about the same thing a few days ago so I went ahead. Others can certainly disagree and/or reverse as I internally debated and researched the matter for quite some time myself. By the letter I think a block is warranted, by the spirit it's a marginal case. --CBD 12:37, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. At the moment it seems to be mostly myself for the Armenia-Azeri stuff and a few other things, ElC (currently taking a break from this AFAIK) for Armenia-Azeri, and Thatcher131 doing damn near everything else. It's a nice place, AE, calm and peaceful. Consider it a relaxing break from ANI, but do think about what you do there and try to be fair. Moreschi 12:38, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

But the two edits were the same. The second revert just had a few additional edits made to it, which just disguised the revert. This user admitted that he did it, and said "guess I deserve a block" which serves to prove that Chris knows about this restriction, and yet still violated it. He was only warned about it about a couple weeks ago.

The restriction also doesn't make a ruling about whether or not the edits were correct. Unless it's obvious vandalism, the edit needs to be discussed on the talk page and be limited to one revert. Chris began the discussion after he had made two reverts. I wasn't aware that there were exceptions other than vandalism. What other exceptions are there? By Chris' own admission, he violated it and was open about receiving a block.

One more time: the two edits were the same, and they were disputed, so it wasn't just obvious vandalism. Ksy92003(talk) 13:16, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

He did get blocked - what's your point? Neil ム 15:29, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Kys92003, a bit of unsolicited advice... you and Chrisjnelson seem to have a bit of history. It might be a good idea to find some other areas that interest you if you possibly can, and edit there, because it might be best to leave the advocacy of what to do in this case to those that might be viewed as somewhat more dispassionate than you are. Hope that helps. ++Lar: t/c 15:40, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

User:Wiki Raja

• Wiki Raja (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - On Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:Netmonger/UserBoxes/Terrorism (diff);. This user is continuously harassing me with undue posts in talk pages, I was blocked after he sent an email to admin claiming it was sent to him by me, the admin unblocked me after realizing it was a mistake. see my block log here and discussion at ANI here. Please look into this NëŧΜǒńğer 07:35, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Comment To admin, please take a look at the e-mail or previous e-mail belonging to Netmonger (if he has changed it after the report). If you want, I can forward you the e-mail he sent me for clarification. Thank you. Wiki Raja 16:13, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

User:Donreed

This user has a history of adding unsourced info and has been warned on numerous occasions, including quite recently. I've just found these , & and reverted because, yet again unsourced speculation. Quite frankly, it's tiresome and he has been warned that he could be blocked. Also, he almost never leaves an edit summary. The difficulty is some of his edits are useful, grammar & punctuation changes; some just crass- changing mdash to "--", for example. --Rodhullandemu (talk - contribs) 07:52, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Insistent reinsertion of gossip in Death of Marilyn Monroe

An IP and the two near-SPAs "Bobtoo" and "USA1812" have been curiously insistent about the insertion of some titillating tidbit about the death of Monroe. (A gossip columnist says that some obscure producer of a documentary that doesn't yet exist told him that an old and ill ex-cop told him blah blah blah. Gossip indeed!)

Monroe, her death and her links to the Kennedys are of infinitesimal interest to me. (She could have been Khruschev's mistress for all I care. Moreover, I tend to think articles like this should all be deleted.) However, I am interested in keeping gossip-column-"sourced" factoids out of WP. This of course means that IP-Bobtoo-USA1812 regards me as an adversary. And I'll admit that I haven't always been able to resist the temptation to treat his/their allegations that I must be in the pay of the Kennedys (etc etc) with a po face becoming to an administrator. (I think such allegations are hilarious. Sackloads of such talk appear in the article's talk page.) All in all I think I'm not the right person to remove this drivel yet again and to warn this user (or, conceivably, these users) that any reinsertion will lead to a block on the perp. Anyway, I'm bored by all of this. Some other administrator might step in, with a mop, bucket and truncheon. Good night! -- Hoary 11:28, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Comment:Bobtoo (talk · contribs) et al have also accused Hoary and I of being the same person (in addition to being government and/or Kennedy family operatives). Among the most recent participants is 68.175.71.240 (talk · contribs), with whom I've already had a particularly memorable encounter requiring Oversight-L's involvement, regarding this same article. Bobtoo has been previously challenged concerning (non-)verifiability (see Takashi Oyama). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 13:40, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Possible Activist POV promotions

Incidents involving possible activist POV edits by 198.168.27.224 (Aleut IP user) on at least four separate stubish articles on ethnic groups in eastern Russia that have been reportedd to be have transgender individuals by the user in question. The user repeatedly sites an African anthropologist Hermann Baumann ethnic studies cited in the book Transgender Warriors written by Leslie Feinberg always on page 40. I have reverted the Koryaks and Aleut then finding that the Chukchi and Yukaghir have the same information and citation I ask an administrator to arbitrate. These exact edits may be a lot more numerous. Unsure if it is Feinberg Leslie promoting his activism or book in the articles, or some random user using Leslie's book. The citation may very well be false on page 40. -- Kain Nihil 13:02, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Request to have my former user page and talk page deleted.

Hi!

Sorry to bother you guys with this but I'm currently experiencing real life stalking by my ex-girlfriend who is datamining the Internet to search for clues to my current whereabouts and workplace.

I recently changed accounts to this account from User:MartinDK due to my wish to disengage permanently from former disputes and my own past actions in those disputes. I regret those disputes and scrambled my password so I can't log in to MartinDK. Due to the severity of my situation is there a way for me to have my past user page and talk page including subpages deleted or possibly moved to my current talk page as subpages for full scrutiny? A checkuser will reveal that MartinDK is me beyond any doubt as I have been editing from a static IP belonging to me before I recently moved and the current IP is also static though shared but there are very few other edits to Misplaced Pages from that IP and none of those edits are to anything that I normally edit.

I'm sorry for all of this, I really did not ask for it to happen to me and I certainly don't want to avoid public scrutiny. EconomicsGuy 13:28, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I have deleted all your userspace from MartinDK. Do you also want to rename the account? If yes, to what name, and you or I can ask a bureaucrat to do the change. Maxim_{(talk) (contributions)} 14:08, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you SO much!! I've filed a request for renaming it. EconomicsGuy 15:10, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Anonymous Vandal: 172.202.58.167

Why does 172.202.58.167 keep removing referenced and accurate and informative text from George Michael? How do I block this anonymous vandals? Darkieboy236 14:12, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Protected for 72 hours due to edit warring over "English"/"UK". Please talk it out and establish consensus on the talk page. — Edokter • Talk • 14:24, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi there, and thank you. As the UK is the correct name of the country, I believe that having this info is correct, although I accept that England is not incorrect. Darkieboy236 14:39, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi there, 172.202.58.167 appears to be going through the list of article that I edit and has changed the nationalities of people from British to English. As English in itself is not a legal nationality this user is causing problems. This user is preventing conversation and discussion about this matter as he/she is anonymous. Please can you block this IP address to avoid further incorrect edit and to prevent the user from edit warring. The user has already changed the George Michael article more than three times and will not engaged in discussion. Thank you for your time. Darkieboy236 14:44, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I only see one edit from 172.202.58.167. Are there any other IPs involved? BTW, it is not uncommon for Brittish citizens to be called English, Welch or Scottish... it's a matter of pride I guess. For example, Gordon Ramsay is Scottish, but has the Brittish nationality. — Edokter • Talk • 15:10, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

"Darkieboy236" regularly goes through articles adding UK and changing English decriptions to British. The George Michael article had GM described as English with a reference with quotes from GM himself for quite some time! After asking this user to stop reverting back to his version as he was altering statements that were backed up with references he then added several useless references from unofficial websites so that he could use the same arguement. This user has repeatedly changed the article back to his version - this user has also been blocked previously for edit warring on a similar subject. I belive there was also a consensus met a year or so ago not to add UK to every geographical description as it is unncessary and looks stupid. 172.143.116.15 15:23, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Misuse of popups by Martinphi in an edit war

This user - in spite of being the subject of an RfA - has just misused popups in an edit war. This is not the first such misuse as is evident from this user's edit history. -- Fyslee / talk 14:26, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Martinpfi made one revert. Popups is just an editing tool that anyone can use; it does not give him any special powers. I see no abuse here. — Edokter • Talk • 14:38, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I reported one misuse, but use of popups in edit wars is a very poor practice and I've previously seen other users stripped of their right to use popups in such situations. POV warriors don't need technological help to enable them in their edit warring, which is itself an abusive situation that should not be aided and abetted by the use of popups. -- Fyslee / talk 15:16, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

64.40.108.168

This IP address has been warned multiple times about vandalism to multiple New England Patriots-related Patriots, including Super Bowl XXXIX and Super Bowl XXXVI. Similar (and in many cases exactly the same) vandalism was made to those pages, as well as New England Patriots, New England Patriots strategy, Super Bowl XXXVIII, Robert Kraft, etc., causing some of these pages to be protected during that mid-September period. Also during that time my user page was vandalized by this IP address, as well as my talk page by the same IP and by another IP with a similar edit history. This vandalism ceased until today, when 64.40.108.168 began its vandalism again on Super Bowl XXXVIII and Super Bowl XXXIX. The latter vandalism made references to the page protections as well as protection to my user page that was accepted. I am requesting that action be taken against this IP. Thanks. Pats1 /C 14:39, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

24 hour block. For now. --Alvestrand 15:14, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Netmonger's incivil behavior

Netmonger (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) has been blocked once already for posting harassing messages to my talk page and sending a vulgar abusive e-mail to me. He has continued with his harassment against me and has recently made a personal attack against me here. This individual has also posted a couple of harassing messages to me here and here for filing an MfD for an inflamatory userbox here. Previously, there was one harassing message he posted on my talk page here. Fortunately, an administrator took that removed that off my page here. Just now, he has sent me another message here which I deem as a sarcastic post on my talk page. He is now trying to report me here for reporting him in regards to his vulgar harassing e-mail stating that I have made up the e-mail account and falsely reported him which his friends have flatly denied here. If there is a way for an administrator to confidentially check and confirm his e-mail to be the one sent to me by him it would be help. Also, if you would like for me to forward you the harassing e-mail he sent me for confirmation please let me know. Thank you. Wiki Raja 16:26, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Stalking and harassment by user:Profg

Profg (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log), who has been blocked once already for stalking and harassing me, and was doing the same to user:Odd nature, is now targeting user:ScienceApologist, and I suspect user:JoshuaZ. Can someone uninvolved please look into this matter and perhaps try to persuade ProfG that attempting to drive off other editors, isn't a terribly productive way to spend his time here.  – ornis⚙ 16:27, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I have tried to reason with this particular user on talkpage to no avail. Uninvolved administrator attention in this matter would be greatly appreciated. ScienceApologist 16:37, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I have attempted to negotiate with this editor and explain Misplaced Pages policies also to no avail. Wikidudeman 16:42, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Editor has stalked me over to Homeopathy, a field in which he showed no interest, and attempted to canvass editors into creating trouble here. Profg should be blocked or subject to a community ban. OrangeMarlin 16:46, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

My experience with Profg has been that he has a history of advocacy via ignoring/twisting WP:NPOV on creationism and pseudoscience related articles, and when his changes are rejected, he turns it into a personal matter, following those who've most often rejected his edits to unrelated articles they edit and undoing their work there. This a pattern I've seen repeated time and again, and has landed him in hot water more than once. Beyond Wikistalking, Profg has also misused Misplaced Pages processes a number of times to intimidate and silence those he views as his opponents. For example, he's made what have turned out to be several baseless allegations at WP:WQA while striking the pose of a victim of incivility when all that has happened is his behavior pattern was identified per WP:SPADE. He seems addicted to conflict, now fanning the flames at Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration#Comment by uninvolved User:Profg, and his participation at Misplaced Pages has contributed little other than strife. Misplaced Pages has never been a place for advocacy supported by vexatious litigation to drive off more responsible contributors and bullying by posing as a victim in order to dupe others and he's met all the criteria of a disruptive editor according to WP:DE. Profg should be dealt with quickly and firmly in order to lessen any further disruption to the project. Odd nature 16:59, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Response from Profg. I was blocked once for incivility; I admitted my mistake and corrected it. I was then blocked incorrectly by the same admin for what he thought was an "attempt to harass" another editor. I protested that block very strongly, because it was simply wrong. However, that admin refused to rescind it, despite the evidence put forth on my behalf.

Now, several POV-warriors such as ConfuciusOrnis, ScienceApologist, Orangemarlin, and Odd nature have apparently banded together against me, attempting to turn the facts around in accusing me of being what they, in fact, are.

This is no claim that there is a "cabal". This is a statement of fact, that several WP editors have taken it upon themselves to "rid Misplaced Pages" of all that does not fall within their (self-admittedly narrow) definition of "science," etc. They "tag-team" reverts of my (and others') legitimate edits, then pull "3RR" threats and AGF claims if they are challenged. They are very good at what they do, and they will probably succeed at this attack, also.

I have never "stalked" or "harassed" any editor. On the other hand, I have been stalked and harassed, but since I have no clique of Wiki-friends to back me up as these editors do, I have no recourse for it. It is editors like these and their friends who drive away other good editors, and will result in the demise of Misplaced Pages if they are not countered and corrected. It is why college instructors such as myself refuse to allow WP to be used as references or sources in any papers. This is unfortunate, because the WP project is actually a good idea.

This will be my only response to this superfluous "incident" charge. Thank you. --profg 17:23, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I think what is needed here is for uninvolved admins/editors to review the above. I don't really qualify, since I've run across User:Profg in the past and share most of the above views regarding his generally confrontational and unhelpful approach. This "uninvolved" view is pretty clear Wikistalking; I'd block him myself, given his history of similar malfeasance, were I not somewhat involved. An interesting quote is here: Profg chastises another editor by stating (quite correctly, in fact) that: I have found that one of the signs of a POV-warrior is his tendency to resort to WP:AGF. He quickly closes the irony loop by noting: There are obvious exceptions; I have reminded others of AGF, as well. Indeed. Any uninvolved editors/admins willing to look this over? MastCell 17:26, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, that certainly wouldn't be me: I find Profg to be among the lowest of the low of Misplaced Pages editors, bringing all of the oily, sneaky, dishonesty of backroom politics to Misplaced Pages. His "contributions" have in wise been constructive, his disruption of the project immense, and his ill-will and noetic necropathy are manifest. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 17:40, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

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