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Jewish history Start‑class Mid‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Jewish history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Jewish history on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Jewish historyWikipedia:WikiProject Jewish historyTemplate:WikiProject Jewish historyJewish history-related Start This article has been rated as Start-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Poland Start‑class Mid‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Poland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Poland on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PolandWikipedia:WikiProject PolandTemplate:WikiProject PolandPoland Start This article has been rated as Start-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Discrimination Start‑class Mid‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Discrimination, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Discrimination on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DiscriminationWikipedia:WikiProject DiscriminationTemplate:WikiProject DiscriminationDiscrimination Start This article has been rated as Start-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the importance scale.

Title

Is this title used in English historiography? Further, wouldn't bench ghetto be a better translation of ghetto ławkowe?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:04, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Transliteration is enough. We do not translate slogans from another language - unless the expression already exists in the naitive language.

The same is true of Book titles, for example.

Consider this: Velikoe v malom. It's Russian - ans tays so. --Ludvikus 18:06, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

This is not a book title, however. If the phenomena has a name used in English literature, we should use it. The question is - is there such a term?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  18:38, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Since it has been shown that the term is used in English sources, and is usually translated, I'd suggest moving the article to either bench ghetto (more literal translation) or ghetto benches (less correct, but for some reason more widely used).-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  00:08, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Hitler on the Slavs

Polski ławkowe

I think we need to remind people that after Hitler finished with the he planned to do the same with the rest of the Slavs - including the Poles. So maybe we need the following article: Polski ławkowe - that where the Poles would sit when still admitted into German Nazi universities - to keep the Nazis "uncontaminated" by Slavik presence. --Ludvikus 18:14, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I think it is incorrect to put Hitler's implementation of his racial theories and Polish antisemitism into the same ballpark. The situation of Jews in the nationalist interwar Poland while certainly a notable example of state-supported mob antisemitism cannot be really compared not only with the situation of the Jews under Reich but also with the situation of Poles under the General Government. Let's not exaggerate thus undermining the Misplaced Pages's credibility. The situation with minorities in the interwar Poland was bad enough in its own right and does not have to be compared with the Hitler's genocidal regime to make a point. --Irpen 18:25, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

There are some related articles: Education in Poland during WWII, Education in Nazi Germany. I am not familiar with the term polski ławkowe, it seems gramatically incorrect.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  18:41, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Polish antisemitism

Please avoid undiscussed moves and rewrites in such controversial issues. This article is about ghetto ławkowe, not antisemitism in Poland. We are not discussing antisemitism by country; see also Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Anti-Semitism in Poland, and think why there is no article on Anti-Semitism in Germany or Anti-Semitism in Russia, for example. Hence, object to move to Polish antisemitism.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  18:37, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Agree with the call to never make undiscussed sweeping moves. Polish anti-Semitism, OTOH, is a notable topic and may have its own article but it would have to be written from scratch rather that having it based on a narrow aspect of it, however shameful. --Irpen 18:39, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

There should be not only German antisemitism, but Russian antisemitism as well. And let's not forget or leave out Ukrainian antisemitism. Unfortunately, that to much work for any one editor. --Ludvikus 18:42, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I have no objection to a separate article on any notable topic if it is written encyclopedically, carefully, in good faith and academic style rather than to make a point or grind an ax. It is easy to see which is the case from the article's onset. If anyone is willing write such articles, I would have no a priori objections. But if such articles are created in the nonsense Digwuren's ax-grinding style of Soviet occupations of THIS and THAT, it would be another story. --Irpen 18:45, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

My comment was wiped out by you beating me to the punch. It appears that this (if accurately described) is an aspect of Polish antisemitism. Are we to have now a little article on every anysemitic phrase or usage in every foreign language? This is a Polish usage, and it seems to small to have a place of its own. What's the problem with starting an article dubbed Polish antisemitism? Or is it that we need an article "Negroe toilets" too (in the South of the US before the '60's)? How about Whites only? --Ludvikus 18:56, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Segregated seating for Jewish students in Poland is a notable phenomenon in its own right and deserves an article, this is all what I am saying. The Polish antisemitism is a much wider topic. --Irpen 18:59, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Ghetto benches indeed was significant event in the history of Jews in Poland. But renaming it to the Polish antisemitism would be a stretch. Although it would be very educational to have an article on apologetics of persecutions of Jews and Holocaust denial in Polish historiography, but as this article does not exist yet to call new article on this subject Polish historiography would not be quite fair, despite that similar examples show what some areas of Wiki is not about fairness. M0RD00R 21:11, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

User:Piotrus showed 18 hits on Google for "bench ghetto" (some with scare quotes). The hits included scholarly books on Antisemitism. --Ludvikus 21:47, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes it's true but "Ghetto benches" gives us 224 hits of mostly academic books on google books. So it beats "bench ghetto" on popularity by far. M0RD00R 21:52, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Good observation, MORDOOR. I've put that into the article. --Ludvikus 11:51, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Polish Antisemitism vs. Antisemitism

I guess I just have to accept that Wiki classifications of AS by country are forbidden.

• As a result Antisemitism has only One article that covers all countries.
• But this article is about Antisemitism (in the Modern Polish Republic). So we must make reference to the Main Antisemitism article. --Ludvikus 11:57, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Ghetto ławkowe and Ukrainians

I remember reading something that there were attempts to put Ukrainian students in such ghettos. Perhaps somebody can find a ref for that.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  18:59, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Ghetto ławkowe (Polish: Ghetto ławkowe), which can be translated as bench ghetto,

Why are you forcing a translation of Polish "shit" into English where it does not exist - and your translation is broken English which is incomprehensible to an English speaker? --Ludvikus 19:01, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Ghetto benches might by not exact translation but the term is used in English literature . M0RD00R 19:11, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

None of the English language translations provided here reflect the actual meaning of the Polish phrase “Getto ławkowe” because of our linguistic differences. “Ławka” (as in w “ławka w klasie, w auli”) is not just a “bench” (a long seat)” known in English. “Four types of furniture found to be in use in classrooms: sled desks, chair with arm tablet, table with chair and table with bench.” The most accurate English term is offered by The Jewish Journal of Sociology published by World Jewish Congress. That is the "ghetto desk", though NOT “a desk in the ghetto” of course, but rather a “ghetto desk in a classroom”. Btw, “ghetto bench” or a "Ghetto-bp" is a type of workout equipment used for body building. Don't be misled by an avalanche of inaccurate translations from Polish featured online. --Poeticbent talk 22:38, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

But don't forget that "The most accurate" is your POV. "Ghetto benches" beat "Ghetto desk" by landslide in academic and scientific papers. This term was also used by Encyclopedia Britannica so we should go with established English name. M0RD00R 17:02, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Young Poland League

What's the Polish title of this organization? Without it, its hard to verify its existence, as there are probably several translations of the original Polish name, and this doesn't seem to be very useful.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  19:49, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

It's Związek Młodej Polski. M0RD00R 17:33, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I've created an article on pl wiki now (pl:Związek Młodej Polski).-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  18:31, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Ghetto ławkowe was the extension of the Russian Empire's numerus clausus policy

Could someone elaborate on this one? Even if from my own experience here in Wiki I know how the scheme usually works, like for example in Kielce pogrom case "Jews were persecuted because they were communists" > they were persecuted by some outside force - evil barbarian neighbors, "Communists" (and "Communists were Jews") therefore > "Jews persecuted Jews" and no one (except the Jews themselves of cause) is to blame, but still I wonder how come 20 years after gaining the independence sovereign Polish state still was implementing Russian policy. M0RD00R 22:16, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Cultural contamination, perhaps. After 123 years of Russian rule, some Russian customs and policies were assimilated by the Poles. Unfortunately, anti-semitic policies of Russian Empire appear to be among those. Of course, the fact that such regrettable attitude was on the rise worldwide is another factor, too.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  22:24, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Dear Piotrus,

While Poland was the Kingdom to which Jews fled in the Middle Ages from the West, from Germany, don't forgey that contemporary Jews were believed by Catholics to be guilty of killing Christ. So whatever influence there was from Russia, Jews were the victims of Catholic Polish antisemitism - independent of Orthodox Russia and the Ukraine. --Ludvikus 11:45, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Segregation

I think I need to remind - if not inform - our non-American editors that this seating practice falls under the well-known phenomena of racial or ethnic segregation. --Ludvikus 12:08, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Racial nature of this discrimination should be obvious, but somehow it isn't for some. Apparently there are some users protesting the usage of term racial segregation in this case. It would be interesting to see their arguments. M0RD00R 12:42, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Background

This needs spliting into two parts - beginning with pre-independent, or Poland within the Russian Empire. --Ludvikus 12:19, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think such big background is needed. What about improving History of Jews in Poland instead?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:46, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Lead again

I am modifying this:

The system was not terminated by Polish legislative enactment; but rather, by the Nazi invasion which eliminated Jewish attendance at universities with the systematic destruction of Poland's Jewish community.

The only relevant lead-worthy part here is that the system was not terminated by Polish authorities but rather collapsed along with Poland and its education. Nazi destruction of Poland's, or any other, Jewish community is not the subject of this article. We don't and should not throw all issues, no matter how important overall, to every Misplaced Pages article. This article is about a narrow issue: discrimination of Jews through segregation in Polish education. While referring to an overall anti-Semitism of the interwar Poland may be warranted, this has nothing to do with Nazi policies and, obviously, cannot be compared to the latter. Let's keep the articles focused. Antisemitism in Poland is a notable topic but if one wants to study present it in detail, this should be done in a dedicated article rather than in the article about a narrow aspect of it.

As for the international reaction, until we have a ref that it was indeed widespread, let's just mention that there was a reaction since this is confirmed by sources. --Irpen 00:56, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

You've done a good job of copyediting in accordance with the above. And your statement of principle is correct. However, there are still style/grammar errors to be corrected. But I appreciate your restoration of balance between the two extremes.

Furthermore, since this is one aspect of Polish Antisemitism, and we are not allowed to have an article by country, to wit, Polish Antisemitism, I trhink we need to place it in a proper context - how does this phenomena fit the rest of Antisemitism then, there, before, and/or after. Best, --Ludvikus 01:17, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Who says we are not allowed to have a narrower article about national antisemitism? Not at all! We can have such articles. But such articles should be started very carefully and be well-motivated. To often such articles are started by the user with the sole purpose to grind one's ax and make a point about their pet subject. If the article is started in such way, it is almost always destined to become a miserable failure. The subject of Polish antisemitism has received enough scholarly attention and the well-intentioned user armed with sources, patience and honest interest to write good articles rather than "prove that Poles are Antisemites" has a good chance to put such article on a right track. Unfortunately, the controversial subjects too often attract the users who don't write good articles. And such topics attract the most disruptive users from opposite POVs and articles degenerate into an unrepairable shape. Then they may get deleted. That's why there are so few good articles on the controversial subjects yet. But there are some and there may be one more. --Irpen 01:39, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

"Thereabouts there were no longer any Polish Jewish students sitting on any benches - they had all been deported to ny the occupying Nazis to concentration camps and extermination camps." This is not a direct response to your remark above. However, after careful re-examination, that sentence is appropriate as an accounting of how Ghetto benches became un-necessary. There were no longer any Jews left to sit on them. You may, if you wish, try to find a more "intellectual" way of putting it. I, for the moment, cannot think of any. However, your previous deletion of it was arbitrary, capricious, and unreasonable. You need to try again. The question is: How or Why did Ghetto benches disappear? The answer is that those who sit on them had been exterminated. You may not find that appetising to your need for a cold, dry, reading. Well, you can try and find a way of doing that. But you cannot do it by hiding the truth under your intellectual rug. So I'm sending you back to the drawing board, as I've restored the fact. --Ludvikus 02:18, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Ludvikus, please tone down your attitude a little. To the topic now. Ghetto benches were the feature of the Polish educational system in end-1930s. With the collapse of Poland, the Polish educational system seized to exist. There were no Polish universities, there were no benches in Polish universities, including the benches for Jews. In the Soviet part the Universities were soon reopened as the Soviet institutions. As Internationalism was an official Soviet ideology, there was hardly any anti-Jewish policies in the pre-war USSR. Actually, the Soviet takeover opened the doors into the Universities for non-Poles (Ukrainians, Belarusians and Jews) much wider than they were in the nationalist interwar Poland. Soviets introduced had their own antisemitic policies, including in education, but at a much later time and this is not the subject of this article. The main thing though, is that Ghetto benches was a a segregation within the Polish educational system that ended with the end of that system. There was no Polish education in partitioned Poland. The horrible future that awaited the Jews in the Germany-controlled Poland in the hands of the Nazis and their collaborators is undisputable. But this is not the subject of the article about the the segregation in the Polish education.

I agree that the issues you keep reinserting deserve to be covered in Misplaced Pages. But they are off-topic in this article. --Irpen 03:28, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh yes Irpen, certainly internationalism was an official Soviet ideology. They closed colleges for Poles and opened for Ukrainians. This was very international indeed. BTW - I have no idea what is worse - discrimination based on ethnicity (Nazi Germany) or based on social status (Soviet Union). And as for Polish Antisemitism - it certainly attracts those users who have little knowledge on Polish history, but nevertheless seek for any chance to criticize Poland. Tymek 04:15, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Disappearance of Jewish students

I cannot understand the persistent concealment (by editing or reversion) in an article about Segregation of the fact that that segregation ended because there were no longer any Jews left to segregate. What is with you guys? Where is your logic? The Question is simple, really. How did Ghetto benches disappear? They disappeared not because the Polish authorities decided (like the Americans in the 1960s) "that separate is not equal" (Brown vs. Board of Education). But because there was no longer any need for them - since the Nazis had eliminated the Jews. --Ludvikus 05:01, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Ludvikus, the benches for Jewish students in Polish universities disappeared along with the benches for the Polish students in Polish universities along with the entire system of Polish universities. That Jews were killed afterwards by Nazis and their Polish collaborators has nothing to do with Ghetto benches. --Irpen 05:17, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

And with the big Holocaust template to the right it's certainly not hidden from the article.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  06:04, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Holocaust template does not belong here and it is not in the article. The Antisemitism template belongs here all right. --Irpen 06:11, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

You can put it any way you wish. But you cannot pretend that its irrelevant. Your latest claim is that the whole Polish educational system was shut down. Well then say that: Jewish university students at Polish universities were no longer forced to sit on benches reserved for Jews only because the Polish educational system had been shut down by the Nazis. --Ludvikus 06:35, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

You guys seem desperately wanting to find a way not to state exactly how these Ghetto benches disappeared from Poland - that they were in fact only distroyed by the Nazis - why leave out this ironic fact? --Ludvikus 06:41, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

The obvious fact you guys seem to want to censor is that Poland did not find these benches unjust, or illegal; that Poland never had a chance to continue this practise - because the German Nazis found a better, final solution. --Ludvikus 06:45, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I think that the fact that Poland did not find this practice unjust and worthy to be banned is important and needs to be said. This, however, has nothing to do with Nazis or the final solution. Nazi Holocaust and Polish antisemitism are different issues and needn't be mixed. Overall, I strongly suggest that you calm down. --Irpen 06:49, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Dear Calm User:Irpen:

• We can only speculate what Poland would have done, or not done - and speculation is not for Encyclopediasts to do.
• Why you think I need to calm down, I do not understand. I do not insult, or personally attack, any other Wikipedian.
• Nevertheless, absurd positions can, and should be, attacked not by any means necessary - if permitted.
• Furthermore, you know, I'm sure, that the World is full of Holocaust deniers; how you expect one to be calm in that context is beyond me; and I think it needs to be said to you in this context that six million Jews went calmly, most of them Jewish and Polish, to their death; what you're discussing here is one aspect of that same Antisemitism.
• Here in the United States in the 1950's and 1960's the Negros also could not get a seat on the bus where a white person sat. It was the refusal of Rosa Parks to give up her seat in the back of the bus which began the Civil Rights Movement. And, by the way, those who calmly violated the Segregation restrictions were taken out and lynched. So how you expect calmness, or how you can think that what we're discussing here has nothing to do with the Nazis is incredible, but at the same time, understandable, when one recognizes that one lives in a world where there are so-called scholars who say that the Holocaust never happened.

But Peace to you personally, fello Wikipedian Irpen. --Ludvikus 13:02, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Dear Ludvikus - ghetto benches were shameful, but please do not mix them with Nazi Holocaust as these two topics are totally different. Do not compare Poland in 1939 to America in 1960, during those 21 years everything changed. In 1939 segregation of various kinds was commonplace almost everywhere. Irpen is right, Holocaust template has nothing to do with this article, or perhaps you want to add this template to anti-Jewish riots in Detroit in 1943? Tymek 15:15, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I have nothing to do with that template. We call that a red herring. All I'm asking is to make it clear how Ghetto benches went out of existence. That's all I want. My comparison to the 1960's is my original research, here, on the talk page. On the regular page I just want the pure fact: that the Poles, through their government, never eliminated such segrigation through their legislative process: the did not pass any kind of law making such benches illegal. That is a historical fact. Now I also giving the Poles some kind of excuse: that the Nazis took over. What happened when the Soviets came into power - that I leave to other, hopefully knowledgable editors on the subject. Maybe this will help you understand my position better. The late Polish Pope (Karol Józef Wojtyła, John Paul II) was I Great and Lovable Polish gentleman! --Ludvikus 16:57, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

The fact that the benches disappeared because the Nazis closed down Polish school system is obvious. Polish government didn't have the chance to ban the segregation; whether and when it would have done so w/out WWII it's an open question, but the fact is that the segregation was not reintroduced after WWII.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:03, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

• Let me tell you all how law generally works. After countries overcome their occupation, their laws are automatically restored. So it's not enough for you to tell me that segregation was not reintroduced - the question is, was it ever abolished? Perhaps it was never re-introduced precisely because the Nazis had killed the Polish Jews off. Since this is an article on the racist practice of segregation, it is our responsibility to tell our readers how that practice ended. From what you are telling me now, it is perfectly legal for any Polish university to set up separate seating tomorrow.
• Do not white wash the situation by saying this Polish antisemitic practice was not re-introduced. The more accurate way of stating it right now is that it was never formally abolished - unless you know otherwise! --Ludvikus 17:16, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Ludvikus, the after-1945 situation in Poland was totally different from the pre-1939. The pre-war law system was not restored, as Poland was ruled by the Communist puppet government which rejected the interwar Poland. As for formal abolition of the ghetto benches - I have no idea how it was solved after 1945. But as neither of us knows how the Communist government handled this case, I think we should skip this subject until sources are found. So, if you are not sure, please refrain from stating that it was never formally abolished unless you check the existing Polish law. Tymek 18:23, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

It was also never formally established. Universities had autonomy and Polish pre-war government washed their hands of the issue. The autonomy under Communists was much smaller, practically non-existent during Communist period, so the government obviously did not wish for the ghetto benches to be recreated.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  18:28, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Greatings, and Welcome, User:Tymek. Please do not confuse what I say here on the Talk page, with what I might write on the Article page. I agree with what you say about references. What I wish is precisely that - sourced accounting as to what happened to students' seating rights during the Nazi, Communist, and post-Communist eras, right up to the present day.

In addition, the article should make reference to other practices of this kind of Racism. Were Ghetto benches the only forms of anti-Jewish regulations? Were there, by the way, any German benches, or Prussian benches, or Austrian benches, or Russian benches, or Ukrainian benches? After all, Poland had no reason to love these other nationalities. It seems, however, that only Jews received such special seating accommodations. Is that not true? --Ludvikus 19:05, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for greetings. There were not any ghetto benches for any other nationalities, even though the system for Ukrainians was considered in Lwow in early 1930s. During the Nazi era, there was no education in Poland, not counting Nur fur Deutsche. Tymek 19:11, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Not quite. As I recall in one university Ukrainian benches were introduced. It had Polish, Jewish, and "the rest" (designated mainly for Ukrainians) sections. But if memory serves me right it was the only case. M0RD00R 19:13, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

• In defense of my Polish brothers and sisters, let me just say that Poland needs feel not much more shame, if any, than the great United States of America. At least Jews had seats in Polish universities. In the USA a Jew could not even get into Harvard or Yale - the two greatest American universities - before WWII; and Quota systems existed here (USA) too. --Ludvikus 19:20, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
• For example, the Jewish quota article says:

    One American who fell victim to the Jewish quota was late physicist and Nobel laureate Richard P. Feynman,
    who was turned away from Columbia College in the 1930s
    and went to MIT instead.

--Ludvikus 19:27, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

• And a European example:

    In Hungary, for example, 5,000 Jewish youngsters (including Edward Teller)
    left the country after the introduction of Numerus Clausus. 

--Ludvikus 19:33, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Lwow Technical College 1939-1941

Zbyslaw Poplawski in his book “Dzieje Politechniki Lwowskiej 1844-1945”, Wroclaw 1992. (“History of the Lwow Technical University”, Wroclaw 1992) writes about incidents that took place at the school in the Soviet years (1939-1941). He writes that in November of 1939 there was a meeting at the school, during which Communist Jewish activists recognized pre-war Polish anti-Semites from college. They pointed these persons to NKVD officers, all four were taken out, beaten and then shot. Their names were: Henryk Rozakolski and Jan Plonczak from the student Bratniak organization, Ludwik Placzek and Jozef Obrocki. The meeting was terminated, shocked people left the hall walking past their killed collegaues. Poplawski also writes that Jews were systematically taking revenge for the ghetto bench system. Harassed were professor Eberman from the combustion engines department, and engineers Jerzy Wegierski and Zbigniew Budzianowski. In 1940 a lecturer of sculpture, Jan Nalborczyk was killed for pre-war excesses.

To avoid questions - Zbyslaw Poplawski PhD died in Krakow on August 1, 2007, he was 95. He was a graduate of the Lwow Technical College, also a member of the Polish Academy of Sciences

more information about the Lwow Technical: http://www.lwow.com.pl/politechnika/politechnika2.html#5

IMHO this information could be useful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tymek (talk • contribs) 19:13, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I forgot to sign myself, sorry Tymek 19:31, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Important observation as to what happened. I personally regret that Revolutions are often the means of terminating injustice. When a system of law and order breaks down, as in a revolution, what is Justice to one, is Revenge to another. Your observations can be applied to the French Revolution as well. Did the French people take their Revenge on the Aristocracy during the Terror? At any rate, you are reporting important historical facts that should be included. It shows at least some sort of retribution against the perpetrators of the bench system. In the USA racist Governor Wallace was shot and crippled, and confined to a wheel chair. Eventually he recanted, as did Henry Ford for his racist activities. Anyway, these facts (you state) are clearly relevant to the Encyclopedia. So you should put them in. Best, --Ludvikus 19:51, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't some of this be noted in main article? -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  01:24, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Few or many

Instead of avoiding POV words such as few or many some users tend to push their POV at all costs. Words like this have no place in the lead, but if you insist on putting "many", referenced "few" also should be present. Philosophical question - if so "many" Poles protested Racial segregation, why then ghetto benches were implemented? Maybe because "many many more" Poles there quite happy about them. M0RD00R 19:25, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Pure speculation, quite unacceptable by our Wiki standards. Please provide source for the "many, many." --Poeticbent talk 19:40, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

By our wiki standards words like "many" and "not many" are unacceptable (especially in the lead) but for some reason you prefer to insert them by all means possible there it suits you. M0RD00R 19:44, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

"many many more" Poles there quite happy about them". This is more fun than a barrel of monkeys. How about this - many many Jews were quite happy about Soviet persecution of Poles. We should refrain from such stupid comments, don't you think so? Tymek 19:50, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

In that regard, Tymek, I think you are wrong. We should not use such words ourselves. We can quote any kind of source for that. But it most often is a POV expresion. Don't you agree that just one murderer is too many? So "one" means "many." Or do you think that only a Jew is capable of such logic? --Ludvikus 19:55, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Tymek, if/since it's not your position. --Ludvikus 19:57, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Would you believe that, Poeticbent? Phrase "many Poles disliked the Jews" can be referenced, and this book is by Oxford University Press so WP:RS written all over it, in big letters . Does this mean that this phrase can be quoted here or in any other article's lead, according to you. M0RD00R 20:04, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

"many Poles disliked the Jews" is a slightly different expression from "many Poles were happy about (ghetto benches)". Anyway this is a unique phenomenon. Poland was home to the largest number of Jews, in Poland they found refuge and yet relationships between both nations were far from ideal and both sides were guily Tymek 20:09, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Here we go with "both sides were guilty" tune. But not the both sides imposed acts of racial segregation on each other. Hello! There was one side that imposed segregation, and there was another side upon whom segregation was imposed. M0RD00R 20:18, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Hello! My comment was general, about whole history of Jewish community in Poland, not about the ghetto benches. Tymek 20:31, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh excuse me. If we talk about whole Jewish history in Poland, pardon me, but still i fail to see "both guilty sides" for example in blood libel (superstition still alive in Poland in the middle of XX century, may I remind you) pogroms. M0RD00R 20:41, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

In some cases the Poles were guilty, in some other - the Jews. Jewish collaboration with Soviet occupiers in 1939-1941 is a commonly known fact. Jewish over-representation in Communist Secret Services in 1945-56 is also known, and their willing participation in persecution of Polish patriots. Nevertheless - it does not make any sense to vie each other. I will state again - both sides were guilty of misunderstanding and sometimes hatred. Tymek 20:52, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

"Hello! There was one side that imposed segregation, and there was another side upon whom segregation was imposed"

If Max Bodenheimer would had his way though then indeed one side would be privilaged over the other and not exactly the Poles. At least that is what I read in "Germany, Turkey, and Zionism 1897-1918" by Isaiah Friedman page 231. Roots of animosity between Poles and Jews are many, but the main point of divergence was XIX century and IWW connected to conflict regarding the orientation towards acceptence of being part of Polish nation from Commonwealth definition or strictly being Jewish people. A lot of bad blood was also in part due to conflict between supporting independent Poland in WW1 or victory of German Empire and Austrian Empire and Poland becoming part of them. Mostly Jews prefered to live in multiethnic AH and Germany rather then in Poland as they believed their rights would be more safe in them then in Poland, so it naturally led to conflict with Polish national movement. And of course the Russian mposed Pale of Settlement also led to change in ethnic situation in Polish territories, and such changes always bring conflicts--Molobo 21:58, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't anyone need to go to the bathroom? Anyway, before you do, and I have to go shopping, here in Manhattan, to buy many, many, things. Or mabe it's few things? Anyway, before I go, who is the un-named editor referenced above who is so loose with "few", or "many" as observed above? I'll be away - but I shall return to this lively discussion. --Ludvikus 20:12, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh! As I go out the door I see the answer .... --Ludvikus 20:12, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I locked the door. But then I returned. I am absolutely shocked, User:Poeticbent that you use such a subjective word as "many"! Have you no intellectual shame/ Have you not understood one word of our discussion here? Tell me, are there many editors like you at Misplaced Pages who use "many" as you do? Let me say it again, just One like you is too Many. Do you understand that usage?

Now I really have to go, and to the bXXXXXXm too - what Poetichent just did makes me want to tXXXXXXp! --Ludvikus 20:30, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Please respect WP:CIV and WP:NPA.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  21:40, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

And please respect common sense by removing POV words from the lead that you have insterted.

P.S. many, more... most. Look what I've just googled with "Europe's most anti-semitic country". Yeap this can be referenced too

M0RD00R 21:48, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

• Sorry for my language. But I did get sick in my stomach. Now here's the alleged source author: Historical Dictionary of Poland (Hardcover) by George Sanford (Author), Adriana Gozdecka-Sanford (Author). That's not the author cited by our editor here. --Ludvikus 21:55, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
• Our editor here has Footnote #2 with the following: Jerzy Jan Lerski. --Ludvikus 21:59, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
• So we need a more exact citation, context, etc., from our Wiki editor. --Ludvikus 22:01, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Here is a blurb on the true author of the cited work:

    About the Author
    George Sanford (BA, Bristol; MPhil, PhD, London), Senior Lecturer in Politics,
    University of Bristol, UK,
    is a leading academic specialist in Polish and East European Studies. This is his seventh book;
    he has also published numerous articles and chapters in ten books and commented on Polish affairs for the mass media.
    Adriana Gozdecka-Sanford (MA, Warsaw), is a Polish-born journalist and author.
    She published two historical books as well as a novel in Poland.
    This is her second co-authored publication with Sanford since settling in England in 1977.

So who is Jerzy Jan Lerski? --Ludvikus 22:08, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I've stubbed the link for your convenience. -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  23:14, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

The answer is this: Historical Dictionary of Poland, 966-1945 by Jerzy Jan Lerski --Ludvikus 22:13, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually everything is OK here, these are two different books, and cited information in that book, question is, is this extremely short dictionary entry any good for referencing outstanding claims. M0RD00R 22:14, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I want the exact reference. And the context. I find it hard to believe that a scholar would make such an observation. So I want to see the whole paragraph in which that one sentence is lifted from. And I want the chapter heading. --Ludvikus 22:17, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

It's all here just follow this link . M0RD00R 22:30, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I remember conversations with my age-old father who grew up in central Poland before the war. He came from a provincial town where Jewish and Polish populations were nearly equal in numbers: driving forces in the local economy, competing with each other for scarce resources in times of world-wide depression. Was there anti-Semitism? No less than anti-Polonism, visible by way of pranks of little boys on either side. I can only guess, what Ludvikus’ opinion is on the real minorities living there in Manhattan... --Poeticbent talk 23:23, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Like it or not, there was a widespread perception that Poland was a virulently anti-Semitic country in the West. Certainly many Jews who emigrated from Poland to the U.S. and Palestine spoke of this phenomenon. Yitzhak Shamir probably being the most famous of them with his belief and subsequent remarks that Poles inbibed anti-Semitism from their mother's milk. Dr. Dan 01:16, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

• Poeticbent's remark above show no understanding of discrimination whatsoever. The Jews of pre-war Poland were a minority. In discrimination, it is always the minority which is the victim. It's just incredible that you can make such a remark: "Was there anti-Semitism? No less than anti-Polonism." That shows ignorance of the highest order. I do not wish to insult you; nevertheless, that is the most stupid remark I have heard in a very long time. It is worthy of a "hwop" - which is my transliteration of the Polish word for peasant; the other response that's appropriate to such a remark is the following transliterated Polish one: that it can only come from an "unalphabeta." --Ludvikus 03:21, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
• As for minorities living in Manhattan: I can think of no other city in the world where people for all over the world live together with respect and tolerance for one another. It was not always like this. But there have been great changes for the better since the end of WWII; And I can say that I'm proud and happy to be a citizen of New York City - I would not want to live anywhere else; visit, maybe, but the Big Apple, Gotham City, is my kind of town. --Ludvikus 03:29, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Question about the numbers

If there was a proposal to set limits to number of students based on their relative ethnicity precentage among the society-what was the precentage of Polish university students and Jewish students ? If places for Jewish students were to be limited to 10% what was the number subject to reduction before the proposal ? --Molobo 23:46, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

• Start-Class Jewish history-related articles
• Mid-importance Jewish history-related articles
• WikiProject Jewish history articles
• Start-Class Poland articles
• Mid-importance Poland articles
• WikiProject Poland articles
• Start-Class Discrimination articles
• Mid-importance Discrimination articles
• WikiProject Discrimination articles