| Revision as of 20:12, 17 October 2007 editMastCell (talk | contribs)Edit filter managers, Administrators43,155 editsm →Vote: amend← Previous edit | Revision as of 20:25, 17 October 2007 edit undoWLU (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers52,243 edits →Vote: pointNext edit → | ||
| Line 96: | Line 96: | ||
| | Redirect | | Redirect | ||
| | Both terms ''exist'', but that does not mean they need individual articles. They are ''currently'' used largely interchangeably by ], and any historical differences can be adequately summarized in a single article. In addition, ] of controversial or ] articles are a generally poor idea, as they simply diffuse the conflict and often end up contradicting each other. | | Both terms ''exist'', but that does not mean they need individual articles. They are ''currently'' used largely interchangeably by ], and any historical differences can be adequately summarized in a single article. In addition, ] of controversial or ] articles are a generally poor idea, as they simply diffuse the conflict and often end up contradicting each other. | ||
| |- | |||
| | ] | |||
| | Neutral | |||
| | I'm neutral due to a lack of expertise, but if ] document them as the same or discuss (subtle?) differences, a single page with a controversy section or possibly a main seems the solution. If RS fail to document the difference, or document that they are the same thing, the page should reflect this. ], until a difference is discovered and discussed in RS, they are verifiably the same thing. Is this a straw poll or a discussion? | |||
| |- | |- | ||
| | Enter your name here | | Enter your name here | ||
Revision as of 20:25, 17 October 2007
 | The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
Article
This page is not needed; proper article at Chronic fatigue syndrome. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thedreamdied (talk • contribs) 13:34, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
- This page is needed - read the text of both pages! Chronic fatigue syndrome and Myalgic Encephalomyelitis are not the same - although very similar. If you disagree than take it up with the WHO. It is not normal for Misplaced Pages to list different things as one and the same.
- This page should address the specifics of ME for those who want to know them. The CFS page should address the specifics of CFS. If you want to discuss the similarities then these can be mentioned in the relevant sections of each page or a seperate page can be created for that. If you want to debate the name or nature of the illnesses then wikipedia isn't the place.
Treatment section
Removed some inappropriate text from the treatment section. Jklsc 22:51, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Redirected
Obviously, chronic fatigue syndrome has now grown enormously, and this page is just a placeholder for those who disagree with the terminology. I strongly suggest we keep this as a redirect. JFW | T@lk 06:05, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Redirect Removed
Jfdwolff, please read, and contribute to, the discussion page of a topic before you start applying redirects willy nilly and taking over. This is not a POV Fork as you implied. In fact, your redirect is the opposite of a neutral point of view (please see "NPOV" and the NPOV tutorial) it can also be argued to be original research as it advances the position that ME and CFS are the same thing despite debate in the wider community, declarations and classifications by the WHO, and published scientific articles.
As the user above mentions, CFS and ME maybe very similar, they may be the same thing, I don't know. However, they are different terms with different histories and deserve different, albeit related, entries (hyperlinks are an easy tool to add to an article you know). Personally, when the World Health Organisation decides to list them as the same thing then I will let you implement the redirect. Until then, separate entities deserve separate entries.
I have labeled this page as controversial for now. Jklsc 11:15, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
- I have reverted your reinstatement, and will leave a post for discussion on Talk:Chronic fatigue syndrome. You need not lecture me on NPOV. NPOV does not mean we should have articles about different names, and most authorities (e.g. the new NICE guideline) state unequivocally that whether it's called ME or CFS, it is the same condition. This WHO business is the result of heavy political lobbying, and I am unaware of a source that does not map chronic fatigue syndrome to G93.3. I suggest you participate in discussion on the CFS talkpage. JFW | T@lk 09:47, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
- You seem convinced that CFS and ME are the same thing despite the evidence to the contrary. I do not know of this consensus which you refer too. You may not have noticed that the NICE guidelines you refer to have had more objections by health profesionals and researchers (let alone other interested parties) than any previous guidelines. I personally feel that international consensus (i.e. the WHO) trumps my opinion whether I like it or not. Since my arguments haven't worked on you, and yours have not worked on me nor the others who have posted here, what would convince you that there is a need for a separate ME page?
- Incidentally, I see that G93.3 makes no mention of CFS... perhaps you are using the wrong term or they are different things? Mapping to G93.3 is not the same thing as being listed under it.
- NB this is a dispute about the ME page so it belongs on the ME page not the CFS page.
There has been discussion on this at Talk:Chronic fatigue syndrome. Please look there - at the moment there is no consensus for dual articles. JFW | T@lk 21:07, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry, in discussions elsewhere there is no case for forking this article. If you want to turn this into a fork, please encourage other contributors to discuss either on the CFS talkpage or here. JFW | T@lk 11:34, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
- Jfdwolff please stop forcing your opinion on the contributors of this page. Contributors to this page have given valid reasons for it's existence. You have not provided anything other than your opinion that this page should be redirected to the CFS page. The relevant justification for the redirect should be provided here and agreed to here. This page is not a fork and should not be treated as one. As you are the only person here who has a problem with this page then you need to encourage other contributors to discuss this page here.
- Let me re-iterate that CFS and ME are not the same thing. ME criteria fit within the American CFS criteria but not the other way round. A fitting analogy is that it would be unusual for there to be a page on Great Apes but not on Homo Sapiens as Homo Sapiens are Great Apes but not all Great Apes are Homo Sapiens. Also, the contributors to one page do not automatically override the contributors to the other. So, again, please make your case and back it up with evidence, rather than point of view, that ME and CFS are the same thing and that ME should redirect to CFS. Alternatively, please state what we can do to convince you that this page should stay. Kmclellan 01:37, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
vascular damage
ME is a historical diagnosis CFS is not. This is the position of Vance Spence, Byron Hyde, Betty Dowsett, Ramsay and numerous other experts on ME. Nice are very good on CFS I am sure but ME patients don't have fatigue as a symptom- so saying they suffer from chronic fatigue syndrome is erroneous- they suffer from CNS dysfunction that can be measured using SPECT etc. Whilst autopsy of these patients always shows vascular injury. At Akureyri this was vascular injury in the basal ganglia, vascular injury was also found in the sporadic Newcastle outbreaks via autopsy.
THIS PAGE MUST STAY!
88.108.49.106alpinist —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 19:32, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I am working on the historic aspect of the disease which is different from CFS- please can we not have any reverts- I have used one source which is copyright free and am about to work on cross referencing etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.108.49.106 (talk) 19:48, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
- Alpinist, there is a general consensus that CFS equals ME. If you want to quote the dissenting opinions, do so on chronic fatigue syndrome. Please discuss further forks there. JFW | T@lk 06:15, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
- No, such a concensus does not exist. The two are certainly not the same, and cannot be, since they are different types of entities. CFS is intended for the same patients, but it's a different diagnosis, where many people get diagnosed with CFS that do in fact not have ME. Guido den Broeder 23:53, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
move?
Shouldn't this be Myalgic encephalomyelitis with a lower-case e rather than capital? It's per WP:MOS#CAPS. WLU 16:07, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
- Good question. Even an example that they gave at WP:MOS#Article_titles.2C_headings_and_sections doesn't follow the rules: The Rolling Stones as it is title case and starts with 'The'. The illness is normally refered to as Myalgic Encephalomyelitis, so I don't think that it matters either way. Still, since Multiple Sclerosis is 'Multiple sclerosis' on wikipedia and yet 'Multiple Sclerosis' almost every where else, we might as well stick with Jfdwolff's conversion to Myalgic encephalomyelitis... Kmclellan 02:10, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Redirect or Not
Should the Myalgic encephalomyelitis page redirect to the Chronic fatigue syndrome page?
The page was previously 'Myalgic Encephalomyelitis' and experienced many reverts by two users.
Please note, many contributors to this page may have this illness and may not be able to respond quickly.
Vote
Below is a table for casting your vote on whether or not this page should re-direct to Chronic fatigue syndrome. Please copy the last row and fill it in with your user name, view, and comment.
| Username | Keep, Redirect, Neutral | Reason |
|---|---|---|
| Kmclellan | Keep | CFS or ME are similar but complex and separate entities with different histories and different diagnostic criteria. Redirecting ME to CFS is not necessary, confusing, and ignores the fact that ME is internationally recognised as an illness in it's own right (see ICD10 G93.3). Kmclellan 02:56, 17 October 2007 (UTC) |
| Guido den Broeder | Keep | Since CFS is only a syndrome diagnosis and ME is 30 years older than CFS, it is otherwise not possible to provide certain information, at least not in a comprehensible and readily recognizable manner. Guido den Broeder 10:27, 17 October 2007 (UTC) |
| JFW | T@lk | Redirect | Most authorities use CFS and ME interchangeably, and given the enormous overlap this can only justifiably be dealt with on one page, which I submit should be chronic fatigue syndrome. Please note that this issue has already been discussed in extenso on Talk:Chronic fatigue syndrome. JFW | T@lk 19:47, 17 October 2007 (UTC) |
| MastCell | Redirect | Both terms exist, but that does not mean they need individual articles. They are currently used largely interchangeably by reliable sources, and any historical differences can be adequately summarized in a single article. In addition, content forks of controversial or battleground articles are a generally poor idea, as they simply diffuse the conflict and often end up contradicting each other. |
| WLU | Neutral | I'm neutral due to a lack of expertise, but if reliable sources document them as the same or discuss (subtle?) differences, a single page with a controversy section or possibly a main seems the solution. If RS fail to document the difference, or document that they are the same thing, the page should reflect this. Verifiability, not truth, until a difference is discovered and discussed in RS, they are verifiably the same thing. Is this a straw poll or a discussion? |
| Enter your name here | Keep, Redirect, Neutral? | Please add a comment here |