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Vietnam Unassessed

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Newly released documents

This recent Los Angeles Times article would seem very significant, as it confirms some of the stories told at Winter Soldier. http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0806-07.htm 24.223.167.112 07:36, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Valley Forge

I've commented out references to the encampment at Valley Forge. That occurred over the winter of 1777-1778. Paine's first Crisis was written a year before those events. One of the phrases implied he wrote it at Valley Forge, Pennsylvania, rather than about VF, but if Paine was in VF a year before Washington got there someone should dig up a citation. --J Clear 14:23, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Changing perceptions of veterans

This entire section consists of two things, one long quote and what appears to be an unsourced opinion piece from an editor. As such, I am removing the section. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 19:36, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Turns out that I was right about the paragraph that I called an "an unsourced opinion piece from an editor"

From article: While no one involved with the Winter Soldier Investigation, and subsequent Senate hearings, ever accused "all" servicemen of misconduct - it was made evident the problem had grown beyond "isolated incident" status. The problem was perceived by the participants as epidemic, and was seen as ignored and even condoned by leaders at all levels in the military and government. Winter Soldier was the culmination of efforts to bring national attention to this situation, and to expedite the end of America's participation in the Vietnam conflict.

Now from a comment made on an article at hnn.us: While no one involved with the Winter Soldier Investigation, and subsequent Senate hearings, ever accused "all" servicemen of misconduct - it was obvious the problem had grown beyond "isolated incident" status. The problem was perceived by the participants as epidemic, and was seen as ignored and even condoned by leaders at all levels in the military and government. Winter Soldier was the culmination of efforts to finally bring national attention to this situation, and to expedite the end of America's participation in the Vietnam conflict. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 23:37, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

g0lem.net

Footnote 1 links to http://www.g0lem.net/PhpWiki/index.php/VietnamVets which is now advertising. MDonoughe 14:32, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

You are right. Fixing it... Xenophrenic 08:33, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

This is still available, but I think better sources can be found for the same information in the article. Xenophrenic 09:25, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Recent Edits

1) Why was the Stacewicz citation and punctuation removed from the article in this edit? Xenophrenic 02:00, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

According to JobsElihu below, this was done by mistake. They have been readded to the article. Xenophrenic 01:27, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

2) I moved this sentence here for discussion. "When the event began, Lane returned to participate in the media event, acting as its "general council (ref)Peter Michelson.Bringing the War Home, The New Republic.February 27, 1971. Ironwood Daily Globe, Jan 28, 1971(/ref) When the event began, Lane returned? I was under the impression he returned before the event began. Also, this seems to imply he participated as general council at the event, yet this was printed in a publication days before the event began. Is the date correct on the citation, and could you tell me the page numbers for these citations, please? Xenophrenic 06:41, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

You are right, TNR is a much better source for this information, as it contains the same material,and was published after the event. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 15:20, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm missing something here. I am right about what? Do we have a page number? Xenophrenic 18:29, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

We do now. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 18:33, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm looking at page 25 as I type this, and it says nothing of the sort. Nothing about "returning" anywhere; nothing about "general" anything; nothing about him "participating" in anything. Is it possible you got the wrong article or page number? Xenophrenic 00:48, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I doubt you are looking at pg 25, because if you were, you would see it. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 05:05, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Page 25, The New Republic, dated February 27, 1971. Begins with, "ities was to jeopardize oneself. In short, American soldiers, like any surviving..." The article also ends on this page. I have the full article, and will probably be using portions of it as source material. Please provide the text in the TNR article that you are citing as a source. Xenophrenic 05:33, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

You have the article, the information is there, and I dont feel the need for hand holding here. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 18:59, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged should be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation. If you don't feel the need for me to hold your hand and step you through this, no problem, but after the episode with "Page 284 in Stacewicz," I'm sure you understand why I check your citations thoroughly now. Pg 25 (or any page of that article) does not support the above content. Xenophrenic 03:58, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, its been cited, and I am sure you have seen it as you have used it as a source in the article. But, here it is: Many were only vaguely aware of who Mark Lane was, and many were opposed to his association with the investigation (he is the legal counsel and a fund raiser for the VVAW, which claims to have 2000 members). Most of them ignored Jane Fonda, though she was present through most of the testimony. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 20:53, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I expanded your excerpt a little. Lane did do fundraising and give legal counsel to the VVAW, that was never in dispute. The dispute is, as noted above: He didn't participate in the media event. He didn't act as general counsel for the WSI (he was legal counsel for the VVAW only, remember?). And "When the event began, Lane returned..." means what, again? While I know from other sources that Lane, like Fonda, was also present for a portion of the event, Michelson doesn't say so in this article. He certainly doesn't say either of them participated in any of it. Xenophrenic 23:56, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

3) I moved this section here for discussion:

"Other Veterans commented on the treatment they received as POW’s under North Vietnamese control. Unlike accounts from other POW’s describing widespread mistreatment, torture and starvation, from Veterans such as John McCain and Admiral James Stockdale, WSI participants such as George E. Smith described their captivity under the North Vietnamese as humane and lenient. Although it was later revealed that two Special Forces POW’s held in captivity with Smith, Sgt Kenneth Roraback and Captain Humbert Versace, had been executed in retaliation for the execution of 2 Viet Cong. , and Smith was charged with violation Article 104 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice after his release."

Xenophrenic 02:00, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Who is this George E. Smith guy, and on which panel of the WSI did he testify again? The links in this section say nothing about it. Is there a source? Xenophrenic 01:27, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm George Smith. I was a member of the Special Forces Aide Team in South Vietnam in 1963. My camp was overrun. I was captured by the NLF troops and held prisoner for two years and released in November 1965.. And now we know the rest, apparently he bacame a big fan of the NLF and lied his ass off in Detroit. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 20:21, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Now we're getting somewhere! The new link you have provided shows he did testify at WSI; he did make statements in support of the NLF while in captivity; he did face court-martial charges after he was released; he still, now that he is free and no longer a POW, is sympathetic toward the NLF. Here is another informative link to review. None of the links above show which Article(s) he was charged under, or what punishment he received. Article 104 would be a good guess, but we need an actual source to tell us. I also don't see anything in the above links about McCain or Stockdale, or Smith ever using the words "humane" or "lenient". Smith never described captivity under the North Vietnamese, but the NLF in the south instead. Lastly, the sentence beginning, "Although it was later revealed..." just makes me go: huh? The supposed executions were revealed half a decade earlier. Xenophrenic 04:07, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Other veterans testified to the treatment they received when held captive as POWs by the NLF. In contrast to accounts of mistreatment described by prisoners of the NVA in the north, the former prisoners speaking at the WSI said they were never physically abused, except for some rough handling during their capture. The NLF provided enough food and medical attention to sustain them, and in the particular case of Sgt. George E. Smith, he claims "I usually had more food than I could eat," although he would often grow ill from intolerence. Smith admitted fearing for his life when he heard Hanoi Radio broadcasts saying NLF soldiers were being executed in Saigon, and the NLF was promising to execute Americans in retaliation. Shorty afterward, two American prisoners held in the same camp with Smith are believed to have been executed in reprisal. At a press conference when Smith was released after two years as a POW, he made statements in support of the NLF and against US involvement in Vietnam, and immediately faced court-martial charges for violation of Article 104 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (aiding the enemy). The charges were dropped due to insufficient evidence, and five years later at the WSI, Smith says he still stands by his statements.

The above is a rough replacement based on information in the links you provided. Please give me some feedback. Xenophrenic 07:13, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Guess you didnt look to hard . Torturous Devastating Cudgel 15:42, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Another good link, thank you. I've modified the paragraph to include charge & result. Xenophrenic 18:27, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

4) I moved this section here for discussion:

"NBC News later reported that VVAW executive and Winter Soldier co-organizer Al Hubbard had lied about being an officer and lied about being stationed in Vietnam during a Meet the Press television interview several months after the WSI hearing. Journalist William Overend states he had met Hubbard and he had also been introduced as being a former Air Force captain. Overend learned Hubbard was only an E-5 Staff Sergeant when Hubbard had apologized on the Today Show a few days later for exaggerating his rank. NBC's Frank Jordan recalls, "He was convinced no one would listen to a black man who was also an enlisted man." Hubbard did not testify at Winter Soldier, but detractors of the WSI frequently raise Hubbards fabrication to generate doubt."

Xenophrenic 02:00, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

This seems a little misleading. Even with the last sentence trying to qualify it, it is still out of place in the WSI "credibility" section. This happened long after the WSI, and had nothing to do with it. Good stuff for a Hubbard article though, or maybe VVAW article.

Xenophrenic 01:37, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Hubbards participation, as he was a phony, was raised a number of times with relation to the credibility of WSI. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 20:21, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

He was a "phony" after he lied about his rank during a TV interview, but that was months after the WSI. At what point prior to that, and more importantly, prior to the WSI, did he become a "phony?" I don't see an indication on his BLP. Xenophrenic 04:07, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

He lied about his rank, he lied about the nature of his disabilities (got them playing basketball, not in combat) and he lied about his service in Vietnam. What part of phony escapes you? And as I said before, the notability of his participation at WSI has been picked up upon by several other reliable sources. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 20:53, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

In reverse order: His participation as a co-organizer of WSI is not an issue here - he is mentioned several times in the article already. I was asking you to explain how something he did months (or years or decades) later should be made to appear as if it affects the credibility of the WSI. If Hubbard were to rob a bank tomorrow, would you stick a paragraph in the WSI article mentioning it? As for lied about his service in Vietnam, "... Defense Department officials stressed it was still possible Hubbard could have served in Vietnam..." -- Same Overend Article. As for his disabilities, "...Hubbard had been seriously injured while in the Service. But the VA would not say whether it was during the Vietnam years or earlier." -- Overend Article. Nothing says he got disabilities from basketball, and nothing says he lied about his disabilities. His med records show injuries, of course. Sports injuries, service injuries, a broken bone due to falling out of his little red wagon at age 6, whatever. The article confirms he is receiving 60% disability, and the VA doesn't give that for a bruised rib. It was already confirmed he suffered a serious injury while in the service. As for lying about his rank, yes he did, long after the WSI, and not in relation to the WSI. When he was asked about it, he admitted it, and explained why, quite publicly. I also notice this paragraph is missing a source, especially one tying the lie to the WSI. The Overend article never mentions it. I doubt there is one, prior to the wild concoctions published by politicos during the recent years of Kerry's political campaigns. Xenophrenic 23:56, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

5) From an Edit Summary:

(a soldier is not an airman is not a sailor and is not a Marine)

Good point. I've changed "soldier" to "serviceman" to make it more generic. Xenophrenic 02:27, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

6)The following links in the article are dead:

http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/staticpages/index.php?page=YesterdaysLies1

http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/staticpages/index.php?page=PitkinWSI

http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/staticpages/index.php?page=CamilAff

http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/staticpages/index.php?page=PitkinAff

Removing them, and trying to find suitable replacements. Xenophrenic 03:39, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

7) The following sentence about media coverage of the WSI:

While the event was not extensively covered outside Detroit several journalists and film crews recorded the event...

Isn't completely accurate. Small 'indi' news outlets and stations like Pacifica Radio did extensive coverage (even a total audio playing of the whole event). Mainstream media, on the other hand, mostly ignored the event. I replaced it with:

While the event was largely unmentioned by most mainstream media channels, several journalists and film crews recorded the event...

Xenophrenic 10:50, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Mainstream media is a subjective term. To say that it was not covered extensively outside of Detroit (almost all major Detroit newspapers covered it) is more appropriate. IT was covered in the Washington Post, NY Times and Chicago Tribune. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 20:53, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Do you have issue dates for the WaPo, NYT and CTrib articles that covered the WSI? "Mainstream" can be subjective, but in this context it is used to mean "mass media outlets," or very wide distribution across all of the news platforms. Check the link. The WSI story certainly didn't reach that level of coverage. It sounds like we are both saying basically the same thing, but you just have an aversion to the more contemporary phrase mainstream media. Xenophrenic 23:56, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Inserting conclusions without sources

(this conversation moved here from personal Talk pages)

Hi, Jobs. I notice you have edited the Winter Soldier Investigation article and deleted a source citation by Richard Stacewicz, along with punctuation in the citations. You have also inserted adjectives such as "allegedly" and "allegations" without providing a source citation. Could you please explain these deletions and the adjectives? Thanks much! Xenophrenic 22:40, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

The deletion, if I did it, of the citation by Stacewicz was a mistake and the same applies to the punctuation. However, the words "allegedly" and "allegations" must be added to the article. Misplaced Pages does not take sides. None of the things alleged have been proven. --JobsElihu 06:56, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the response. I will replace the citations and punctuation; I assumed that might have been a mistake. As for adding "alleged" words to the article, that is fine if the sources provided also contain those words. We don't want to form our own conclusions about what is fact and what is only "alleged," lest we violate Misplaced Pages original research rules. You are 100% correct when you say Misplaced Pages does not take sides, but remember that goes for all sides -- including the side that claims the testimony was not factual, but allegation. Go ahead and add the "allege" words if they are appropriate, but please make sure they are accompanied by source citaations.

By the way, your claim that "None of the things alleged have been proven" is not correct. The Detroit Free Press verified many of the claims as true while the event was still ongoing. Many of the claims were obvious and didn't need proof, such as those concerning racism, body counts, fragging, and other already acknowledged problems. Did General William Westmoreland issue direct orders prohibiting cutting ears or fingers off the bodies of the dead because it wasn't happening? Another editor points out on the WSI Talk page that even more of the claims have been proven since the recent declassification of military documents . Much of the testimony has been substantiated, and to my knowledge, none disproven. Xenophrenic 08:25, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is NOT a place to argue politics. In your comments above you are arguing politics. The fact that you believe that "none" of the information has been "disproven" indicates that you have taken sides.

You misunderstand. I apologize if I wasn't clear. I meant to say that to my knowledge the claims have not been disproven.

I am only a causal Misplaced Pages user and I don't have time to investigate all of the information in the article but let me just point out that just because the Detroit News says something is true DOES NOT mean it is true. Newspaper reporters are wrong all the time and I'm sure that their tons of misinformation in the article that you are attempting to dominate.

Newspapers are indeed wrong all of the time. For that reason, Misplaced Pages articles often contain incorrect information. Unfortunately, Misplaced Pages regards "verifiability" over "accuracy", so some incorrect information sneaks in. If you feel there is misinformation in the article, let's see if there is some way we can address it.

For example, on the website for the Eastern Arizona Courier, right now, there is an article by Pam Crandall that quotes Mr. Jesse MacBeth about war crimes that were supposed committed in Iraq by him and other soldiers. There is no questioning of MacBeth's motives or accuracy--just word for word repetition of MacBeth's claims. ALL of the claims/allegations in the article are damn lies. How do I know this? Well, there was investigations done on MacBeth's claims and it turns out that only served in the military for 44 days and did not even make it through bootcamp before he was booted out of the Army for being "unfit." He was Stateside the whole time and he has never been to Iraq and he has never, ever been in a warzone, so therefore all of his claims are lies.

That man is dispicable, and I hope he gets a good flogging. It sounds like Pam Crandall deserves a bit of flogging as well, for not questioning the accuracy of her subject. There will always be imposters, I'm afraid. Organizers of the WSI knew this, and took steps to weed them out beforehand.

Now, there is clearly some of that going on here and you have no evidence to prove that none of the claims in the Winter Soldier situation are not "disproven." Your comments are incorrect and they belie your bias and your attempts to engage in POV.--JobsElihu 14:45, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I invite you to help sort out all instances of "that going on here" so that we may improve the article. I understand you are a casual Misplaced Pages user with limited time, as am I, but every little bit helps. Xenophrenic 18:50, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

More recent edits

Can you please edit in a more deliberate way, with edit summaries, so that we know what elements you are changing, and why? For example, why was "academics" removed from the lead? Badagnani 01:36, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

"Academics" was added to the lead with this edit just last night, without explanation. The Edit Summary said only (a soldier is not an airman is not a sailor and is not a Marine). I checked the source citation (which you have deleted for some reason), and did not see that "academics" had participated, so I removed that word. Xenophrenic 01:51, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

If what you say is correct, please make each edit, with an edit summary explaining why you've made that edit. The fact that you made misspellings and deleted things without stating why you did that cast doubt on the veracity of your major edit to the article. Badagnani 01:56, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I did make an edit summary with each edit. And if the description of the edit is too complicated for a one-liner summary, then I direct the reader here to this page for more detail. I'm sorry for the confusion, but you caught me right in the middle of expanding the discussions on the edits here. Also, many of the "unexplained" deletions or insertions have been discussed elsewhere, and I am just now getting around to editing them. Xenophrenic 02:10, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

That's good. Understandably, if you could be deliberate in your edits, not making 50 in one go, and explaining each clearly with an edit summary, that would be great. Badagnani 02:13, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

The edits were initially made in smaller quantity. If you'll look at the discussion above, you'll see that JobsElihu had accidently deleted citations, punctuation, etc., when making edits. I replaced them, along with making my edits at the same time. That, too, is noted above. You have me concerned when you mention misspellings, however. What did I screw up? Xenophrenic 02:20, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

It's right there in the edit: "attrocities." That, combined with unexplained deletions and changes, cast doubt on the rest of the edits. Badagnani 02:27, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm, must have been a lazy finger on the 'T' key. Would you mind explaining your removal of citations, please? As for doubt on edits, the best way to resolve those doubts is to discuss them. Which edit would you like to start with? Xenophrenic 02:32, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

What is the reason for this deletion? If it's factual, I don't see why anyone would want to remove it, as it seems relevant. Badagnani 01:41, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

That was not deleted, it was moved to this page for discussion, along with an explanation. Have you read it? Xenophrenic 01:51, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Bad-faith reverts on the part of User:Badagnani & User:Xenophrenic

This edit was labeled as a "partial revert" but was in fact an exact revert. Despite my request for deliberate editing, with each edit explained carefully with an edit summary, this editor has simply chosen to take the easy route and revert everything. As explained above, that simply doesn't work well, because it casts doubt on the good faith of the editor making such a massive edit in a contested article, if each edit is not carefully explained, and the editing conducted in a deliberate manner. Badagnani 03:53, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

The edit listed above was not an exact revert, as it also included the removal of the Hubbard "Meet the Press" paragraph, that was previously moved to this Talk page for discussion, and also spelling corrections. Badagnani fails to mention that it was also a revert of his/her revert. Despite my several repeated offers to discuss any problematic edits, Badagnani has refused, casting serious doubt on Badagnanis intentions with this article. A quick review of the edit history of this article shows that Badagnani has a habit of swooping in, making a large scale revert of considerable content, and then departing without ever actually contributing to the article (with one exception to fix tortured grammar). Every edit in the Diff listed above is already explained in detail here on the talk page, and this was explained to Badagnani. Bold edits, when properly discussed on the talk page, are not "bad-faith." My offer to discuss any edits with Badagnani is still open. Xenophrenic 04:17, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Who is "Bag"? I've simply asked, several times, that each edit made with all due deliberation, with careful edit summaries and explanations here. This is an article that has generated controversy, so huge edits with 20 things changed without explanation generate a lot of questions for other editors. Badagnani 04:00, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you have asked several times. I have replied, several times, that every edit of mine is made with all due deliberation, with careful edit summaries and, when necessary, explanations here. As for "huge edits," let me ask you a hypothetical question. What do you suppose would happen in the following scenario:

Editor X makes a small edit to the article, with an edit summary.

Editor X makes another edit to the article, with an edit summary and an explanation in Talk.

Editor X makes yet another small edit, a punctuation change, with an edit summary.

Editor X makes a possibly controversial small edit, and starts a discussion about it here.

Editor X makes one more small edit to add sorely needed citations, with an edit summary.

Editor O now comes along, disagrees with an edit made by X, and reverts all of the above without discussion - making one huge edit.

Editor X comes back, sees all the previous edits wiped away without discussion and clicks (undo), also creating a "huge edit" comprised of all the previously deleted edits.

When editor Y comes along and sees this latest "huge edit" sitting there, what do you suppose he does? I mean, it has like 20 things changed in it. Hypothetically, of course. Xenophrenic 04:41, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I suppose if one were doing it deliberately, all 20 edits wouldn't be made in a single 10-minute period but over some reasonable amount of time so that consensus could be developed, sources examined, etc. Badagnani 07:26, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree, providing all 20 edits involve sources or issues requiring consensus. But suppose 1 of those 20 edits was just to add a couple brackets to Wikify a name, after starting a stub article for that name elsewhere? No discussion required. Suppose 5 of those 20 edits were the simple deletion of external links to websites that no longer exist? Again, no "deliberation" required there. Suppose 1 of those 20 edits was a simple spelling or punctuation correction? Not much to talk about there. Suppose a few of those 20 edits were the insertion of source citations to replace the tags that have been in the article forever? Self-explanatory. Then you are left with just a small handful of edits that were made, deliberately, over a couple days not minutes, to examine, discuss and develop consensus upon. Would you care to join?

This article is tagged as part of the WikiProject Vietnam, of which I see you are an active member. The more voices around here, the better. Do you know how tedious it can be trying to build consensus between just 2 people? Xenophrenic 08:18, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

It's much better to present the actual substantive proposed changes and rationales for such rather than go over, again and again, hypothetical situations. Badagnani 08:23, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

TDC's removal, without edit summary, or consensus, of two categories

TDC, you know better. Would you please explain why you just removed two categories from the article without any discussion nor consensus? That doesn't seem good editing practice and quite opposite of what you seem to be demanding of other editors here. Badagnani 08:32, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough, I canput them back in until there is some agreement on keeping or removing them. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 15:22, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

When you put the catagories back, you also (accidently?) deleted citations to several publications, inserted dead footnote pointers, inserted misleading or false information about a living person, etc. The Edit Summary only says (re added categories). I will assume it was accidental and revert.

As for the agreement on the two catagories, they look applicable to me, so I recommend keeping them. Is there an argument to be made for removing the two catagories? Xenophrenic 18:27, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Torture of Vietnamese was discussed at length, and many, if not most of the activities the former GIs described would constitute war crimes (which, no matter how much certain people would love to wish did not take place at all in Vietnam, did verifiably take place there). Thus, the categories are accurate and will bring our users looking for such information to the right place. I still cannot understand why they were removed in the first place, without even an edit summary or valid explanation here. Badagnani 09:14, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

TDC's revert, without edit summary + various discussions, sarcasm, wit and filibustering for fun!

Bored? Got some time to kill? Feel free to exercise your keyboard in the space below. This space is reserved for a variety of activities! Tell a joke. Give a lecture. Attack someone while telling them not to attack someone! Remind someone that they must only comment on edits and not the editors, then comment about them! Tell them what to do and what not to do. Grab your wikicop hat and baton, and beat them over the head! Quote rules to them while you break those very rules, then smile sagely as you impart words of wisdom on your underlings. Spice things up a bit by taking someones edit, cutting it up, then yell at them when they try to put it back together again. Use your imagination. Pick a favorite sentence and repeat it over and over again. Use cut & paste if needed! Then repeat it again! When there is too much seriousness, have some wacky fun! Xenophrenic 10:55, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

We now have a massive revert, without even an edit summary. Can we please edit in a more deliberate manner? This really reflects poorly on you, TDC, as we've now begun to try to make smaller edits, always discussed first. Badagnani 09:11, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Dear Badagnani: Do not engage in personal attacks. The comment, "this really reflects poorly on you, TDC" is a personal attack and it is not allowed according the rules of civility in Misplaced Pages. Please review this policy: WP:CIV Let's face it. You don't agree with an edit that he/she made. That's it. It does not reflect poorly on TDC and you have no right, according to the rules of Misplaced Pages to personal attack another editor. Now, if you did not like the valid edit that TDC did then you should explain why you believe the edit should be done another way and you should not personally attack TDC and claim, falsely, that TDC's edit "reflects poorly on" him. That is a specific comment about another editor and not about the edit, a flat out violation of Misplaced Pages policy. Also, as to your other comments above, you claim that war crimes were committed in Vietnam. You might be right, I don't know. I was not there and neither were you. As a Wikipedian, I do not have a position on whether war crimes were committed in Vietnam. As an American citizen, I believe that war crimes were probably committed in Vietnam, but my personal opinion is NOT relevant to editing Misplaced Pages and YOUR opinion on whether war crimes were committed in Vietnam is NOT relevant to editing Misplaced Pages. I don't want to know your opinion and you should not share it with me. It is NOT relevant. Misplaced Pages does NOT take sides. Now, the better question, and the one that you have not reached yet is: "Who is making these war crimes claims and where are the citations to back up the existence of the claims?" That's it. Misplaced Pages cannot report these claims without pointing out that they are allegations and they are not proven. Misplaced Pages is not a court of law. Now, if these folks you are quoting were reporting the conclusions of war crimes tribunals or other American or International court then we could report, as Wikipeidans, that these war crimes definitively occurred, but that, of course, is NOT what we have here. We have allegations which we do not know if they are true or not. And that is the way that they are going to be written in this article. Badagnani, I believe that your contributions to the article are worthwhile, but maybe you should take a step back and review your objectives before you move forward. TDC is engaging in valid, productive edits and commenting on him and not his edits is unproductive. Please step back and reflect on that before you move forward. Thank you.--JobsElihu 14:46, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Dear JobsElihu: Do not engage in personal attacks. The comment, "...you should not personally attack TDC and claim, falsely, that TDC's edit..." is a personal attack and it is not allowed according the rules of civility in Misplaced Pages. Please review this policy: WP:CIV. Let's face it, you don't agree with a comment Badagnani made. Badagnani did not "claim, falsely" anything, and did not "attack TDC," nor anyone else, and you have no right, according to the rules of Misplaced Pages to personally attack Badagnani like that. Now, if you did not like the valid comment that Badagnani made, then you should explain why you believe so, instead of calling people liars and attackers. Or better still, let the person to whom the comment was directed respond instead. The conversation was between TDC and Badagnani, and as they have a history of commenting on each other...

Comment: As an experienced editor Badagnani should be well aware of the rules involving 3RR. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 21:20, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

...I doubt either of them feel attacked. Commenting that an editor should be aware of the rules, and commenting that it reflects poorly to make massive edits, are not Wikicrimes. Butting in specifically to comment about another editor and not about the edit, is a flat out violation of Misplaced Pages policy. Please step back and reflect on that before you move forward. Thank you. Xenophrenic 21:48, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Dear Xenophrenic: when I see someone engaging in a violation of civility I will point it out whether I am involved in the conversation or not. It is not your prerogative to decide on what to comment. I will take my own counsel on that issue not yours. And I will repeat that Badagnani's comment was a violation of civility and I will repeat my suggestion that Badagnani reframe from such comments. The rule of Misplaced Pages is clear: Comment on the edit, not the editor and that is not what Bagagnani did in that comment. I can only repeat that over and over again--especially if editor choose, with their own feel will, to ignore that rules of Misplaced Pages. This is the first step in this process. I would hope that comment in the future reflect a concordance with the rules of Misplaced Pages which applies to civility. Also, I will repeat, one more time, that on what issues I choose to comment upon is my decision and not yours. If any Misplaced Pages editor of this article chooses to engage in comments on editors personally and not edits then I will comment on that again, and will not follow your advise. Misplaced Pages is collaborative effort and I read your suggestions and I will think about and attempt to accommodate your suggestions but at the end of the day if any editor makes comments about another editor and does not focus on edits then I will comment upon it. You have made a suggestion that I butt out of the situation and sit silent while one editor makes an inappropriate comment toward another editor, (Badagnani's comment was: "this really reflects poorly on you, TDC"),I have reviewed that suggestion and I have decided to ignore it. Why? The rules of Civility take precedence your own personal sense of when I should speak up and when I should not. Please review the rules of Misplaced Pages concerning Civility one more time. They can be found here: WP:CIV. Let me repeat: I will speak up each and every time an editor comments on the editor personally instead of the edits. Now, as to your mocking of my earlier comments, I would like to point out to your that mocking others comments also borders on a civility violations also. Why not focus your efforts on how you can incorporate the valid and well-thought-out comments and edits of TDC into the article, instead of using your creative skills to mock me? I think that would be a more productive use of your talents.--JobsElihu 00:00, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

No. That is not true. When there is a civility violations anyone has a right to comment on it and ask the offender to stop. You are not stating the rules correctly. That is not a question of opinion, but of fact. Your comment is flat out wrong. You have incorrectly stated the rules. What Badagnani did was violate the terms of Misplaced Pages's civility rules. That is a fact and you are now incorrectly stating the rules to justify Badagnani's comments. The rules of Misplaced Pages are quite clear: You must comment on the edits, not the editor. I once again, ask you to review the rules one more time. The rules state, "Wikipedians define incivility roughly as personally targeted behavior that causes an atmosphere of greater conflict and stress. Our code of civility states plainly that people must act with civility toward one another." Once again, Badagnani's comment was "personally targeted". The definition is not based upon whether you find it offensive. It has to do with causing conflict and stress. Please do not state the rules incorrectly. Please state the rules correctly. Also, do not move my comments because that is considered vandalism and I will move them back to where I put them.--JobsElihu 02:09, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, I do not believe that your (Xenophrenic) "feelings" play any role here. The rules of Civility were violated and I pointed it out. Once again, I would encourage you to focus on the article, not the editors. If there are violations of civility on the talk page, regardless of who engages in it, I will point it out.--JobsElihu 00:00, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

--especially if editor choose, with their own feel will, to ignore that rules of Misplaced Pages. --JobsElihu 00:00, 16 October 2007 (UTC) Well, that sums it up for me. No comment. Xenophrenic 02:29, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Once again, Xenophrenic, do not mock my comments. Badagnani's comment was a violation of the Misplaced Pages rules of civility. I pointed that out. I have asked him not to engage in the behavior going forward. You have asked me not to comment on Badagnani's comment even though it is my right as a Wikipedian to comment on another editor's violation of the Misplaced Pages rules. I chose to ignore your attempt to talk me into standing silent in the face of Badagnani's inappropriate comment because the Wikipedian rules of civility are not based upon what you "feel" is appropriate or not. It depends upon a basic rule that is not subjective but objective. I have also asked you to stop mocking my comments. You have chosen to continue to mock me--that is your decision. I will ask once more for your to stop mocking my comments and focus your attention on the edits of the article and not the editor. In summary, I will not be silenced.--JobsElihu 02:48, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Mocking Comments

:::::Dear JobsElihu: Do not engage in personal attacks. The comment, "...you should not personally attack TDC and claim, falsely, that TDC's edit..." is a personal attack and it is not allowed according the rules of civility in Misplaced Pages. Please review this policy: WP:CIV. Let's face it, you don't agree with a comment Badagnani made. Badagnani did not "claim, falsely" anything, and did not "attack TDC," nor anyone else, and you have no right, according to the rules of Misplaced Pages to personally attack Badagnani like that. Now, if you did not like the valid comment that Badagnani made, then you should explain why you believe so, instead of calling people liars and attackers. Or better still, let the person to whom the comment was directed respond instead. The conversation was between TDC and Badagnani, and as they have a history of commenting on each other... This comment was posted by Xenophrenic. My comment: Xenophrenic, this commentary is a attempt to mock my comments about Badagnani's violation of the rules of civility. Dear Xenophrenic, please do not mock my comments going forward as we discuss change by change of the article, as we work to make sure the article is completely NPOV.--JobsElihu 02:52, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

My comment: Xenophrenic, this commentary is a attempt to mock my comments about Badagnani's violation of the rules of civility. Dear Xenophrenic, please do not mock my comments going forward as we discuss change by change of the article, as we work to make sure the article is completely NPOV. This comment was posted by JobsElihu. My comment: JobsElihu, the commentary above is an attempt to avoid acknowledging your attack on Badagnani when you commented that Badagnani was a liar and an attacker. It reflects poorly on you when, in the same breath, you make comments about an editor and also advise editors not to make comments about editors. Please refrain from making such comments as we hop, together, from one lillypad issue to another in the pond of NPOVness. Xenophrenic 10:55, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Once again, Xenophrenic, you are mischaracterizing what has been said. I never called Badagnani a "liar" as you claim. Please reframe from attempting to put words in my mouth. Let's go over it again. You are mocking all of the comments made by other editors. This indicates that you are not editing with good faith. That is unfortunate. Also, let's repeat once again the rules of Misplaced Pages civility that Badagnani violated and now that you have violated. The rules are clear that you are supposed to comment on edits and not editors. Badagnani stated that a certain edit "reflected" poorly on TDC and that was a violation of the civility rules. Now, you have stated that my pointing out your mocking of my comments inappropriate and how I have asked you to stop "reflects poorly on you." Once again, I will ask you to stop engaging in violations of the rules of Misplaced Pages civility. Please review the rules. You can find them here: WP:CIV. Thank you. Now, remember all of the allegations that are contained the article will be noted as allegations. Mocking the comments of other editors and commenting on how you personally believe that someone's edits reflects poorly on them when the edit was a valid edit will not stop the fact that the article will have the word allegation pasted in it over and over again--in the appropriate places of course. The allegations in the article are allegations they are NOT proven and as such they must presented that way in the article. Let's go over it again. The allegations in the article are merely the allegations and they are not proven and as such they must be presented that way in the article. I look forward to the lifting of the protection so that we can work together to make sure that ALL of the allegations in the article are labeled as allegations because they are merely allegations and they are not proven. Since they are not proven then they are allegations. Misplaced Pages cannot take sides. Misplaced Pages must present the material as what they are allegations and they are not proven. The Detroit News is NOT a court of law and Detroit News reporters can and do make mistakes so therefore Misplaced Pages cannot take sides. Therefore Misplaced Pages cannot state that these allegations are true and Misplaced Pages cannot state that these allegations are false. That is the way that Misplaced Pages works and mocking and attacking will NOT change the rules of Misplaced Pages. Thank you for your attention to this matter. If you need further clarification, please let me know.--JobsElihu 16:05, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Massive edits and reverts

Badagnani, I appreciate your concern here, but my edit was done to undo the first massive edit made by Xenophrenic which removed a significant amount of information from the article, as well as drastically skewed the general POV of the article. Despite what Xenophreic is claiming, the changes he is insistent upon making have neither been adequately discussed on the talk page, and there is zero consensus to insert them. Some of the smaller changes certainly do make sense and should be incorporated, but the more massive one, done without discussion cannot be allowed (and discussion being a 2 way street, not just a quick comment and followed quickly with several major edits to the article). Xenophrenic is insistant on making changes to his base article (which several editors have argued is POV), and not on the long standing version that no one raised any POV issues on. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 16:04, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Badagnani, the "massive" edit of mine TDC describes above as removing significant information and skewing POV is in reality a simple (undo) revert of TDC's massive edit just prior. I have never made an original "massive edit." Period. When you revert a massive edit, you get a massive revert. TDC's prior edit, with the misleading Edit Summary "(re added categories)" did indeed re-add the 2 categories he previously deleted. What that edit summary doesn't tell you is that TDC also wiped out citations to Hunt, Olson, Lewy, and Stacewicz, leaving huge blocks of valid content without any citations at all. TDC made no mention of those deletions in Talk or Edit Summaries elsewhere, either. TDC's Edit Summary also doesn't tell you he deleted the Wikify brackets from the phrase war crimes so readers can't link to it. He doesn't mention he deleted "New York University Press, 1999;" from a citation, so readers don't see where the book came from. He doesn't mention he deleted stardardizing punctuation or pointers to specific sections in WikiQuote, etc. Did he mention he even reverted your edit (the redundant "(CCI)" removal)? No, nothing discussed here or in his edit summaries, except "(re-added categories)", so I reverted his edit. Just as I reverted him when he tried the same thing several edits earlier, and my edit summaries reflect that. It is humorous that JobsElihu calls that edit "valid and productive". I can only assume JobsElihu hasn't even looked at it. JobsElihu has made blind-reverts before, where he wipes out valid content unknowingly .

TDC is correct when he points out some of my changes haven't been adequately discussed and don't have consensus. What he doesn't mention is that is due to no fault of mine. When I make a significant change, I describe it here in Talk. But for discussion to take place, there needs to be more than just me involved. You don't need consensus to insert content; only to keep it - and I've always taken the first step to open discussion on my edits. Now that editing has been protected on the article page, I see TDC is starting to discuss neglected issues, instead of just reverting the changes away. I am hoping JobsElihu and Badagnani would join the discussions and add their input as well. TDC has made a lot of edits to this article amid objections by several editors, so I can understand a protective reaction when I arrived here.::TDC is correct when he points out some of my changes haven't been adequately discussed and don't have consensus. What he doesn't mention is that is due to no fault of mine. When I make a significant change, I describe it here in Talk. But for discussion to take place, there needs to be more than just me involved. You don't need consensus to insert content; only to keep it - and I've always taken the first step to open discussion on my edits. Now that editing has been protected on the article page, I see TDC is starting to discuss neglected issues, instead of just reverting the changes away. I am hoping JobsElihu and Badagnani would join the discussions and add their input as well. TDC has made a lot of edits to this article amid objections by several editors, so I can understand a protective reaction when I arrived here.

Just because I have made a mistake that I admitted to does not mean that your attempts to remove the word "allegation" over and over again is appropriate and that is does not violate the rules of Misplaced Pages. The word allegation is going to be used in the article. That is given because Misplaced Pages cannot make the decision on whether the Detroit News's opinion is correct or not. Misplaced Pages cannot take sides and this article will not be a exception to that basic rule. When the protection is lifted then there will be a change by change discussion. And each and every change will go through the analysis of whether or not the word allegation is appropriately applied or not. Just because someone served in the military during the Vietnam War does not mean that what they are stating is true. Misplaced Pages cannot make that determination and the article will reflect that requirement. Also, you state above, "I can only assume JobsElihu hasn't even looked at it" borders once again on the civility issue. You do not know me. You do know anything about me. You just know a few tiny comments that I have made on the talk page of Misplaced Pages. This is an example of the difference between allegations and facts. You are commenting on what you admittedly "assume" about me. But you don't have even the bare facts to make that claim. Stop commenting on me and start commenting on the edits. You do not have right to make assumptions about what I have done or haven't done. Once again, I would ask you to focus on the edits and not the editors. Please review the rules of civility one more time. You comment is outside the rules of civility. I am asking you to stop commenting about me. You have no knowledge about to make any claims about anything. Just focus your effort on properly editing the article and making sure that the article properly qualifies the comments and article quoted to make up the article. That is only place where comments should be focused.--JobsElihu 02:22, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Clarification, one editor, Xenophrenic in this cases, does not equate to several. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 03:17, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Finally it sinks in! I've been telling you Xenophrenic is one editor that does not equate to several since I arrived here. Xenophrenic 10:55, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

We should still be able to work together, although I am going to be rather insistent on sticking to Wikipedias rules on points of view and sources. Xenophrenic 21:48, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Once again, there is no concensus on many of these issues. Also, Misplaced Pages cannot take sides in this on-going debate. Misplaced Pages can only point out what the issues are and what each side is saying. Misplaced Pages must call an allegation, an allegation. Misplaced Pages cannot decide if the Detroit News says its true then it is true. If the Detroit News says its true then Misplaced Pages must report that Detroit News says "so and so." That's all. There cannot be a POV in the article either for or against the comments of the soldiers, both the real ones and the phony ones.--JobsElihu 00:00, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely true. By the way, we need to reach consensus on many of these issues. Misplaced Pages is invited to join in on the discussions also; they are open to all. If the Detroit News says it's an allegation, then it's an allegation. If it's an allegation, then Misplaced Pages must call it a "so and so." We are agreed. If Pam Crandall says it's true, then Misplaced Pages must report that Pam Crandall says it is true. If other papers allege it is a fraud, then Misplaced Pages must call an allegation an allegation. I guess we agree. Xenophrenic 10:55, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Just for the record, this series of edits is what took a nominally stable article, and started all this, not my edits, or JobsElihu, or Badagani's. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 03:16, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Just for the record, that Diff shows edits that are just the start of much needed improvement to a dormant article. Don't be shy about accepting some of the credit yourself. It was your edits on the Lane article that directed my attention here in the first place. Xenophrenic 10:55, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Reversions are bad

The massive reversions are bad. Stop editing in this manner and edit in a deliberate, thoughtful manner in which each edit is carefully explained. The last couple of reverts were particularly bad in this regard. Thanks. Badagnani 00:08, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Got it. Short, concise edits. With edit summaries; discussion here, and consensus. We can all agree to that. Before we can edit, however, there are still a few issues left to be hammered out here before the page protection is lifted. Xenophrenic 10:55, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Alleged veterans describing alleged warcrimes in an alleged war

There have been recent and not so recent edit skirmishes involving the word "alleged" in the WSI article. Some people want to insert it before any mention of the words "war crime" or "veteran" or "atrocity". Other people remove the word "alleged" from the article, claiming it is a weasel word inserted to subtly and inappropriately imply doubt or deceit. Misplaced Pages lists it as a word to avoid using in articles. The debate basically boils down to which of two statements we should use:

The veterans gave statements about war crimes they personally witnessed or committed.

or instead:

The veterans gave statements about war crimes and alleged war crimes they personally witnessed or committed.

I'd like to know your opinions. Misplaced Pages's rules say to leave "alleged" out. My opinion: I have already taken out many instances of the word simply because their addition to the article wasn't sourced. No sources; no insertion - sorry, it's the law. But beyond that, inserting "alleged" just sounds stupid. 150 people don't travel to Detroit to talk about stuff they don't know happened or not. They limited it to things they had proof of, in the form of eye-witnesses. To stick "alleged" into a description of their testimonies would be to say they were lying. Good luck finding a source to support that.

Torture of Vietnamese was discussed at length, and many, if not most of the activities the former GIs described would constitute war crimes (which, no matter how much certain people would love to wish did not take place at all in Vietnam, did verifiably take place there). -- Badagnani 09:14, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

As noted by Badagnani, war crimes took place and that has been verified. Some specific claims made by the veterans were even verified by independent investigations while the 3-day event was still ongoing, and reports were printed.

ALL of the claims/allegations in the article are damn lies Now, there is clearly some of that going on here and you have no evidence to prove that none of the claims in the Winter Soldier situation are not "disproven." --JobsElihu 14:45, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

...the article will have the word allegation pasted in it over and over again... --JobsElihu 16:05, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Based on the above from JobsElihu, "there is clearly" some information that he has that we don't. I am eagerly awaiting his presentation of the lies that are "clearly going on" with the WSI. This should be enlightening. As for pasting words into an article over and over again, that is fine -- as long as he pastes in the sources with them. Try it without sources, and I fear he'll just end up being one very frustrated editor. Xenophrenic 10:26, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

First, let's go over the rules of civility again. I have never used the word "lies" and once again I would ask you to stop attempting to put words in my mouth. Second, you don't know if I am going to be "one very frustrated editor" or not. That is not a relevant issue. You should not be commenting on my "feelings" or whatever. It violates civility and it is based upon merely your imagination since you do not know me. You have never met me. You really don't know anything about me other than a few comments on a Misplaced Pages talk page, so please once again, Xenophrenic, please follow the rules and let's focus on edits to the article and not your opinion, which are based upon next to nothing, about me. Stop violating the civility rules. Now, I am not going to get into a debate about the Vietnam War. That is not the point of this discussion and I am not going to re-fight the Vietnam War with you. I have stated that personally I believe that there was probably war crimes in Vietnam, but that is not the point here. (And my personal opinion about the Vietnam War is not relevant, just like your personal opinions about the Vietnam War are not relevant.) Just because there was war crimes in Vietnam does not mean that all of these people are telling the truth. I dont' know if they are lying either. (That goes back to your earlier attempt to put the word "liar" in my mouth, I have never called these folks "liars" either.) As Wikipedians we don't know if each and every claim being made at the conference is true or not. Now, I gave you an example of where Jesse MacBeth was making broad, outlandish claims about seeing and participating in war crimes in Iraq. We now know, based upon his own testimony to a jury, that he has never been to Iraq and that he has never been out of the United States in his whole life and we now know for a fact that he only served in the Army for a total of 44 days, did not finish bootcamp, and was kicked out for being, as the Army stated, "unfit." I gave you MacBeth example because you are claiming that because the Detroit News has covered the conference and since the Detroit News is a newspaper then the claims and allegations of the "Winter Soldiers" are true and should be presented in the article as true. Misplaced Pages cannot do that. Misplaced Pages cannot take sides. The information should not presented either for or against the claims of the "Winter Soldiers." We can't do that because the newspaper reporters could be getting the story wrong also. The MacBeth example is instructive. The local newspaper in Eastern Arizona, which is called the Eastern Arizona Courier has on its website, right now as we speak, an article about Jesse MacBeth that extensively quotes MacBeth and repeats his false accusations about his so-called time in Iraq. He claims in the article that he killed women and children without provocation in Iraq. He claims in the article that he saw other men kill women and children. All of these claims have turned out to be untrue, yet the Eastern Arizona Courier repeats them on their website today, without pointing out that the claims have been proven to be untrue. So, to summarize, we need to go through the article and check each and every claim and put in context so that Misplaced Pages does not falsely claim that Misplaced Pages has verified the claims or that the Detroit News (or whatever media source) has verified the claims. That is not Misplaced Pages’s job or your job or my job. We cannot read the material then decide whether the claim is true or not. That would be original research and it would violate the basic tenets of Misplaced Pages. As Wikipedians we can write that so and so stated this and that, but is far as we can go. Now, I would be more than willing to have a discussion with you in a civil and appropriate manner each and every sentence in the article, but I will not get into a debate about the Vietnam War or whether atrocities happened in the Vietnam War because that discussion would be irrelevant, inappropriate, and inapplicable to the discussion that we supposed to be having. You quote Badgnani above about the Vietnam War: “which, no matter how much certain people would love to wish did not take place at all in Vietnam, did verifiably take place there” but the quote is not enlightening on what should be doing in the article. Once again, it is not our job here to re-fight the Vietnam War. There is NO ONE here that believes the premise of Badgnani’s statement. He is ASSUMING that the editors he is writing to (myself and TDC) are ignorant of the Vietnam War and that Badgnani feels the need to educate, lecture, and enlighten us. That is inappropriate on several levels. First, he should not make assumptions about our knowledge level. He should not make assumptions about our thoughts and beliefs about the Vietnam War. Why? It is no relevant to a discussion about the specifics of the article. No one here is attempting to re-write Vietnam War history. TDC and myself are only attempting to get the article accurate according the rules of Misplaced Pages AND all the while doing it in a civil and non-threatening manner. I will not debate Badganani’s premise. It is irrelevant. Badgnani does not know me and does not know how much or little that I know about the Vietnam War. And even if did, it is irrelevant to a discussion about how the sentences need to be constructed in the article to meet the defined rules of Misplaced Pages—which includes, above all, a NEUTRAL of point of view. Badgnani is clearly expressing a point of view—which for him is fine but that point of view should not come out in the article. Yes, I stated that I will use the allegation word over and over again if the situation calls for it. But, once again, you misquoted me. I stated that I would use the word over and over “in the appropriate places.” Of course, you cut off the end of my statement. I look forward to having the protection lifted so that we can work together to make sure each and every sentence puts the claims and allegations in context and to make sure that Misplaced Pages does not take a side in this issue—because that is what the rules of Misplaced Pages demand.--JobsElihu 14:09, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Comments

Hello, JobsElihu. You left a lengthy comment on the WSI talk page which I have moved here (see below). It begins with, "First, let's go over the rules of civility again." In big bold letters at the top of that page, it states, This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Winter Soldier Investigation article. It is not the place to go over Misplaced Pages rules. It is not the place to lecture people. If you wish to discuss various Misplaced Pages rules at length, perhaps you should go to the talk page for that rule. If you feel a Misplaced Pages rule has been violated, then go to the appropriate Administrator Noticeboard and report it. Please don't clutter the WSI Talk page with lengthy pages of discusion about what a rule of civility is, or what a Misplaced Pages editor's job is, or what Misplaced Pages can and can't do. It makes it difficult for other readers to find pertinent discussions on that page. In short, if you see a violation, just go report it.

You did take the time, however, to write up that comment, so I will attempt to respond. I'm going to go through this section by section to help make things clearer, I hope.

First, let's go over the rules of civility again. I have never used the word "lies" and once again I would ask you to stop attempting to put words in my mouth.

Actually, you did use the word "lies" and I quoted you. In fact, you said "damn lies".

Second, you don't know if I am going to be "one very frustrated editor" or not. That is not a relevant issue. You should not be commenting on my "feelings" or whatever. It violates civility and it is based upon merely your imagination since you do not know me. You have never met me. You really don't know anything about me other than a few comments on a Misplaced Pages talk page, so please once again, Xenophrenic, please follow the rules and let's focus on edits to the article and not your opinion, which are based upon next to nothing, about me. Stop violating the civility rules.

Report it to the Administrator Noticeboard, as I suggested above. I stand by my statement that if you think you can paste in words, phrases, whatever, without citing sources, you will end up frustrated - because they will be removed.

Now, I am not going to get into a debate about the Vietnam War. That is not the point of this discussion and I am not going to re-fight the Vietnam War with you.

Great. I'm not sure why you felt the need to insert that, but whatever.

I have stated that personally I believe that there was probably war crimes in Vietnam, but that is not the point here. (And my personal opinion about the Vietnam War is not relevant, just like your personal opinions about the Vietnam War are not relevant.)

That's nice. I don't have any beliefs about the matter. Just knowledge. I reserve beliefs for more esoteric and spiritual matters where verifiability isn't a requirement.

Just because there was war crimes in Vietnam does not mean that all of these people are telling the truth. I dont' know if they are lying either.

Ok. I'm following you so far. I have no argument against that; please continue...

(That goes back to your earlier attempt to put the word "liar" in my mouth, I have never called these folks "liars" either.)

You said all the claims made in the MacBeth article were lies, and then you said there is clearly some of that going on here, too. I said I'll wait to see your proof of these lies. If to you it is "clearly going on," then you must have some proof I don't know about, because it certainly isn't clear to me.

As Wikipedians we don't know if each and every claim being made at the conference is true or not.

We also do not know if any of the claims are not true, so we can't insert the word "alleged" to imply they might not be. The sources cited state the veterans made statements about war crimes. So that is what is in the artcle. They made statements about war crimes. No one disputes this much. The statements are on film. The statements are are recorded in the Congressional Record. The source says they made statements. The source does not say they made truthful statements or false statements about alleged crimes. If the source does not say it, then we can't put it in the article. That is one of the three primary editing rules.

Now, I gave you an example of where Jesse MacBeth was making broad, outlandish claims about seeing and participating in war crimes in Iraq. We now know, based upon his own testimony to a jury, that he has never been to Iraq and that he has never been out of the United States in his whole life and we now know for a fact that he only served in the Army for a total of 44 days, did not finish bootcamp, and was kicked out for being, as the Army stated, "unfit."

You do realize that you said all of this earlier on the same page, right?

I gave you MacBeth example because you are claiming that because the Detroit News has covered the conference and since the Detroit News is a newspaper then the claims and allegations of the "Winter Soldiers" are true and should be presented in the article as true.

OMG, I did no such thing. Maybe your misunderstanding of what I said is at the core of this. Here is exactly what I said, and it it still on your talk page above:

By the way, your claim that "None of the things alleged have been proven" is not correct. The Detroit Free Press verified many of the claims as true while the event was still ongoing. Many of the claims were obvious and didn't need proof, such as those concerning racism, body counts, fragging, and other already acknowledged problems.

As you can see, I did not say the statements of the veterans were true and therefor should be presented in the article as true. I simply pointed out that some of the statements were verified, and they were. The Pentagon was contacted about statements; military personel that were NOT involved with WSI or VVAW were contacted about statements; and the Detroit Free Press reported on what they found out: that some of these claims made at WSI actually checked out. You said none of the claims were proven, and I was showing that you were wrong. I didn't say all of the claims had been proven yet.

Misplaced Pages cannot do that. Misplaced Pages cannot take sides. The information should not presented either for or against the claims of the "Winter Soldiers."

Exactly. The information must be presented in the article exactly as the source(s) present it. You don't then go in afterward and stick in words like "truthful" or "alleged" if the source didn't say they were truthful or only alleged.

We can't do that because the newspaper reporters could be getting the story wrong also.

Actually, that is not exactly correct. If the newspaper qualifies as a reliable source then content from that newspaper can make it into the Misplaced Pages article, even if the newspaper got the story wrong. I know that sucks, but it is the Misplaced Pages way. Misplaced Pages values verifiability over truth. What you need to do is find another reliable source that shows that first reliable source is incorrect. Much like they did in the MacBeth article. Take a look at WP:Verifiability.

The MacBeth example is instructive. The local newspaper in Eastern Arizona, which is called the Eastern Arizona Courier has on its website, right now as we speak, an article about Jesse MacBeth that extensively quotes MacBeth and repeats his false accusations about his so-called time in Iraq. He claims in the article that he killed women and children without provocation in Iraq. He claims in the article that he saw other men kill women and children. All of these claims have turned out to be untrue, yet the Eastern Arizona Courier repeats them on their website today, without pointing out that the claims have been proven to be untrue.

You do realize you said this before, right?

So, to summarize, we need to go through the article and check each and every claim and put in context so that Misplaced Pages does not falsely claim that Misplaced Pages has verified the claims or that the Detroit News (or whatever media source) has verified the claims.

Ummm, no. We don't put things in context. We don't go through claims and fact-check them. We do not verify claims made by newspapers, we can only quote them or paraphrase them.

That is not Misplaced Pages’s job or your job or my job.

Now you are getting it.

We cannot read the material then decide whether the claim is true or not. That would be original research and it would violate the basic tenets of Misplaced Pages.

Exactly! Which is why we can't read material that says a bunch of vets made statements about crimes, and decide in our own heads that those claims may not be true -- and try to sneak in the word "alleged" to support our opinion.

As Wikipedians we can write that so and so stated this and that, but is far as we can go. Now, I would be more than willing to have a discussion with you in a civil and appropriate manner each and every sentence in the article, but I will not get into a debate about the Vietnam War or whether atrocities happened...

Awesome! I accept your offer. Let's start with the first instance of the word "alleged" that you would like to insert into the article. Please point out the sentence you would like to modify, and also cite the source you are using to support that edit. We will discuss that small change, and then move on to others changes in order.

... in the Vietnam War because that discussion would be irrelevant, inappropriate, and inapplicable to the discussion that we supposed to be having. You quote Badgnani above about the Vietnam War: “which, no matter how much certain people would love to wish did not take place at all in Vietnam, did verifiably take place there” but the quote is not enlightening on what should be doing in the article. Once again, it is not our job here to re-fight the Vietnam War.

Sorry, I don't follow.

There is NO ONE here that believes the premise of Badgnani’s statement.

The premise of the statement is that war crimes took place, and that much has been verified, including some of those described by the vets at the WSI. It's true, so "beliefs" have nothing to do with it for me. Perhaps you intended to say that 'you' did not believe Badagnani.

He is ASSUMING that the editors he is writing to (myself and TDC) are ignorant of the Vietnam War and that Badgnani feels the need to educate, lecture, and enlighten us. That is inappropriate on several levels.

Really? Please educate, lecture and enlighten me as to why it is inappropriate to educate, lecture and enlighten you. I'll just pull up a chair here and listen...

First, he should not make assumptions about our knowledge level. He should not make assumptions about our thoughts and beliefs about the Vietnam War. Why? It is no relevant to a discussion about the specifics of the article. No one here is attempting to re-write Vietnam War history. TDC and myself are only attempting to get the article accurate according the rules of Misplaced Pages AND all the while doing it in a civil and non-threatening manner. I will not debate Badganani’s premise. It is irrelevant. Badgnani does not know me and does not know how much or little that I know about the Vietnam War. And even if did, it is irrelevant to a discussion about how the sentences need to be constructed in the article to meet the defined rules of Misplaced Pages—which includes, above all, a NEUTRAL of point of view. Badgnani is clearly expressing a point of view—which for him is fine but that point of view should not come out in the article.

I have no idea what you are trying to say there, but the lecture sure looks cool when integrated into my spiral-rotating desktop animation with the color filters.

Yes, I stated that I will use the allegation word over and over again if the situation calls for it.

And I stated that if you insert stuff without sources, out it goes. Over and over again.

But, once again, you misquoted me. I stated that I would use the word over and over “in the appropriate places.” Of course, you cut off the end of my statement.

Cutting off several thousands of words from your statement is not "misquoting you." I only quoted the portion to which I wished to respond. The part where you threaten to insert stuff repeatedly.

I look forward to having the protection lifted so that we can work together to make sure each and every sentence puts the claims and allegations in context and to make sure that Misplaced Pages does not take a side in this issue—because that is what the rules of Misplaced Pages demand.--JobsElihu 14:09, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand the protection. I requested it so that the edits would stop until we get things worked out on the talk page. We need to develop consensus on a few issues, and your input would be very welcome. If the expiry of the protection nears, and we have not yet reached consensus, I will have the protection extended. Xenophrenic 21:56, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Wow. I didn't know you could do that unilaterally. I guess that we will have to have extended indefinitely.--JobsElihu 22:56, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

(copied here from the Talk page of Xenophrenic)

What I stated is that I don't agree with your premise, which is that you need to educate either me or TDC about Vietnam. I stated in that post (ONCE AGAIN) that war crimes probably did occur in Vietnam, but once again my personal opinion is not relevant and it does not have anything to do with whether the specific allegations raised in Detroit are true or not. And once again whether you (Badagnani) draw a conclusion that the allegations in Detroit are true or not is NOT your job as a Wikipedian. Allegations are allegations until proven otherwise in a court of law. That is the way that Misplaced Pages works. Once again, Badagnani, as a Wikipedian, you cannot decide if the allegations are fact.

Once again, JobsElihu, you cannot decide if a statement is an allegation. The WSI was not a court trial. (Courts of Law have very specifically defined usages of the word "alleged.") The source didsay they made statements. The source did not say they made allegations. You may argue "well, since they didn't bring proof, the statements are only allegations!" That's a fine conclusion, and may even be true, but unfortunately we are not allowed to present our own conclusions in the article. (As a side note, they did bring proof. Eyewitnesses. Also photographs, slides, etc., but that isn't what we are concerned with here.)

You are not a jury. You are not a judge. You are Wikipedian that must follow the rules of Misplaced Pages and no where in those rules are you given the leeway to decide what really happened to Amelia Earhart or if Ali was a better boxer than Frazier or any millions of other things.

Exactly! And nowhere in the rules are you given the leeway to decide if the statements given by veterans are allegations or not.

You are trying to create "concensus" on what history should say. That is not your job. It is not my job. It is not Xenophrenic's job.

No, we aree trying to reach consensus on what the article should say.

We are only allowed to report. Did you notice that on Xenophrenic's talk page you actually made some comments that were worth reading, not correct, of course, but they were attempting of trying to work this out. Since you did not think I am reading this page, you did not feel the need to lecture or otherwise act uncivil. Please work that way over there and we might just get somewhere. Oh, by the way, I would not have to write so long winded posts if my words were not taken out of context and there were no civility issues to address and we just could focus on editing the article. --JobsElihu 18:54, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

No one is trying to be uncivil. I think there has just been a string of misunderstandings. Next time you think someone is being uncivil, try applying a little WP:AGF and chalk it up to poor use of words, and move along. As for my part, I never intended any incivility toward you -- and I apologize if anything I said came off that way. I did make some humorous retorts to some of your longer posts about civility because I really thought you were just having some fun with us. Xenophrenic 21:56, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

• Unassessed Vietnam articles
• Unknown-importance Vietnam articles
• All WikiProject Vietnam pages
• Misplaced Pages requested photographs