Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 22:26, 24 October 2007

• Table of contents
• First discussion
• End of page
• New post

• ]

Please see this FAQ page for a list of frequent proposals and the responses to them.

Sexual orientation of non-heterosexual celebrities

Apparently, Misplaced Pages has a policy of mentioning the sexual orientation of celebrities who are known to be non-heterosexual. But celebrities known to be heterosexual/straight do not appear to have this information included.

While I can understand that heterosexuality is of little interest to anyone — what makes the other sexualities more interesting and more worthy of inclusion in Misplaced Pages?

There are many personal details about celebrities that most people would surely consider irrelevant to their public status, and unnecessary of inclusion in Misplaced Pages, such as their shoe size, hair colour, left-handedness, weight, race, etc. I don't see why their sexual preferences are any more relevant.

It may be relevant if the celebrity's sex life, or sexuality itself, are of particular relevance to their celebrity status or somehow feature in their work. In which case, the disclosure of their sexuality should surely be mentioned in relation to that, rather than in isolation.

So, rather than saying:

"Sarah is openly gay."

The article should say:

"Sarah is openly gay, her homosexuality playing a large part of her humour and often being the subject of public attention."

If the celebrity's homosexuality (or bisexuality) isn't actually relevant to their fame at all, it surely need not be specifically mentioned:

"Sarah has had numerous girlfriends, some of whom have appeared on the show with her." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grand Dizzy (talk • contribs) 22:47, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I've always found this interesting, especially since there are no categories for straight people, but there are GLBTs. Perhaps its because heterosexuality is deemed "the norm", and not being "normal" is notable enough to discuss. SashaCall /_(Talk!) 22:51, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd agree with that. How one perceives the whole issue aside, "I'm gay" simply carries more notability than "I'm straight" in most cases (a gay man suddenly saying the latter might be an exception). It might be a different story when the media dismisses it as commonplace. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 22:59, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

We make mentions of people who were adopted (Category:Adoptees and its well-populated sub-categories) even when that fact has little signifiance to the subject's notability. We don't make mention of people who were not adopted, nor do we say that a politician won the majority of votes in their district, etc. In these cases, we are making a note when someone deviates from the norm. Most people are not adopted. Most politicans get a majority of votes. It's the case where there's an exception (e.g. Bush 2000) where it becomes of note. No value judgement is made. We aren't saying Adopted people are better or worse, and nor does the placement of someoe in a category imply much of anything. Yes, heterosexuality is considered the norm. But that's just the defintion of normal. 90-99% of the population (depending on where you take your figures. Demographics of sexual orientation notes that range, saying that there's a mean of about 95-96%) is heterosexual. That's the norm. Without having to make any value judgements at all, an attribute of someone who lies two standard deviations from the mean is generally worth mention. Heterosexuality is the norm. We can go for ages about why that is (i.e. biological or cognative), but at the end of the day, it is "normal" or "typical" to be heterosexual. --Ybbor 03:48, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

BLP's for heterosexuals often note that they are married, have children (and sometimes give ages and even names of issue) which rarely has any impact on the subjects notability. Obviously the phrase "heterosexual" itself doesn't appear, but the orientation is obvious - and as irrelevant. LessHeard vanU 12:38, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Dude, Oscar Wilde was married and had children... SamBC(talk) 16:22, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

We have no such policy that strictly forbids or allows it. Its just standard practice combined with a few other policies. If a celebrity comes out as being gay, that fact would probably make the cover of every celebrity magazine and would be widely circulated on the internet. If a celebrity issues a press release saying that they are straight, the media is going to say "Who cares?" There just really aren't any sources that specifically mention things about celebrities that are considered "normal" - people wouldn't pay to read it so People isn't going to report it. If there are almost no sources saying something about someone, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to mention it in their article. If there are a lot of sources, then apparently people consider that to be a significant fact and we should probably include it. Mr.Z-man 18:02, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

To Sambc, indeed - but it isn't relevant to Wildes notability other than an example of Victorian morality, whereas his homosexuality did effect both his work and his life. To Mr.Z-man, but the same celebrity lifestyle magazines are full of straight celebrities personal lives regarding girl/boyfriends, engagements and marriages; it is simply an assumption of heterosexuality rather than the publicising of it.LessHeard vanU 21:00, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

But we can't use info like X is married to Y to source statements like X and Y are heterosexual. That would be synthesis. Mr.Z-man 05:16, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

We don't synthesies, we often simply state that X is/was married to Y - and allow the reader to draw the conclusions. That said, X being married to Y is rarely of any consequence to the notability of the parties concerned. LessHeard vanU 12:25, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I think the determination to mention someone's sexual orientation should be made on a case-by-case basis. For celebrities, public figures, and historical figures, their sexual orientation could well be relevant, particularly if they are LGBT in an oppressive era or geographic location, or if they were closeted. If a public or historical figure was hiding something, that's usually interesting. It's also interesting if they are a role model because of their sexuality, or if they themselves have spoken about their sexuality. Like it or not, LGBT identity is more notable than straight identity, because we're in a historic period where LGBT issues are controversial and widely talked about. Plus, (1) LGBT people want LGBT role models, and (2) straight people are fascinated with LGBT identity.

For some people, however, it's just not really germane to the article. For example, who cares if an obscure Nobel Prize winner in physics or chemistry is gay? They are only notable because of the prize they won and for their scientific work. How is their sexual orientation relevant or even interesting? Another example might be authors who are not public figures. If someone is otherwise obscure and private, and is known only for their work or some notable event that has nothing to do with LGBT issues, I don't see how sexual orientation or identity is relevant or interesting.

On another point, I've always been bothered by statements that so-and-so are "openly gay", since we would never say someone is "openly straight". If the subject of an article is gay, and that fact is worth noting for some reason, then let's just say that they are "gay", "lesbian", "bisexual", or "asexual", etc. In the case of closeted living people, we can't comment on their sexuality, so for any mention of sexuality of living people, "openly" is a given, so why say it? For dead people, it may very well be relevant that a person was closeted, since that fact and their sexuality was likely very important to that person and those around him or her. But while we might comment that a dead person was in the closet, I don't see any need to ever use the term "openly gay", as if being open about your sexuality is something unusual. COGDEN 18:49, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

As has been said before - part of the opportunity is that in other areas we mention that someone is or is not something, and expect the reader to conclude if we don't mention that they are either the other way inclined or of no public position on the issue - we don't for instance have many white people categories, but we are pretty equal on male/female cats. I think part of the advantage of using the category is that in part it is driven by the GLBT editors and community itself to recognise how normal the whole issue is, and that its OK to be gay - lets be honest, there is still unfortunatly homophobia in the world. Part of the brief of Misplaced Pages is to educate, and for that reason in this case I don't think we need a tag which relates to some form of openly hetrosexual - the tags and volumes of diverse people within the GLBT cats highlight just how normal the whole issue is. On your second (implied) point of how we write the sexuality in to the article, I think its best left to an article by article conclusion/debate - but unless the subject has said "hey, I'm openly gay" then using such a term in their article would seem NPOV. Rgds, - Trident13 23:15, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

So we say that Dumbledore is simply "a closeted gay", rather than making a big, perverted fuss about it. Right?~user:orngjce223 how am I typing? 23:54, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

"Names and titles" out of sync with our normal naming conventions

Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (names and titles) advises editors to:

This runs counter to our basic naming conventions, namely "use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things". I've seen no argument as to why this special style is necessary, and it produces silliness such as Victoria of the United Kingdom instead of Queen Victoria, William I, German Emperor instead of Kaiser Wilhelm I, Mary I of Scotland instead of Mary, Queen of Scots, and so on. Where there is no "common name", using this system might be reasonable, but the way it is enforced right now defies common sense. Separately, it disregards our normal style of disambiguation; even John (King of England) is a person I can more readily identify than John of England, which sounds like some kind of loo.--Father Goose 21:23, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Create redirects from the name you think they should have. That should solve your problems. Corvus cornix 21:34, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

The redirects are already there. The point is, why do we call Queen Victoria "Victoria of the United Kingdom"? We don't have Tony Blair point to Tony Blair, former Prime Minister of the United Kingdom; Queen Victoria should simply be Queen Victoria.--Father Goose 22:04, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

"Queen", "King", "Kaiser", etc. are not part of a person's proper name, but the title of their office; thus, not used per WP:NAMEPEOPLE. The current system may not result in the most common names applied to some monarchs, but it is a standard that can be applied to all articles on monarchs and provides the least confusing way to disambiguate (for example, between "Queen Victoria" of the UK and the former and future "Queen Victoria" of Sweden). It is also the closest approximation to the usual form of <First name><Last name> for monarchs (most of whom do not have commonly used surnames). --BlueMoonlet 22:23, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Nearly all monarchs are known as "King", "Queen", "Empress", etc. That is the name by which they are most widely known. To say "it isn't part of the person's proper name" is to miss the point of our naming conventions: to place the article where most people will look. --Tony Sidaway 22:40, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the present naming convention seems a bit daft. Nobody in the world talks of "Victoria of the United Kingdom". You'll find Victoria; Queen Victoria; Victoria, Queen of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (etc etc). Without wanting to jump on BlueMoonlet, I must say that "Queen" "King" etc are not titles of office, they are hereditary titles, and as much their name as anyone else's surnames. Lord Peter Wimsey is just that, and cannot be correctly or politely called something else. Kings and queens, like dukes and earls, can have their title follow their name, so we can have "John, King of England", as well as "King John" or "King John of England". Secondly, Misplaced Pages's inconsistency is displayed in your example ofVictoria, Crown Princess of Sweden. Why will she become Victoria of Sweden rather than Victoria, Queen of Sweden? Gwinva 23:07, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

The general naming convention is to use a non-disambiguated page name for subjects that are very strongly associated with that name, even when there are other subjects associated with it -- thus, Moon belongs to Luna, not Moon (disambiguation) (with a hatnote provided at the top of the "main" article). And even Queen Victoria right now goes to Victoria of the United Kingdom, not Queen Victoria (disambiguation). We have existing, sensible, working standards for naming and disambiguation, and WP:NCNT ignores them.

The instruction in WP:NAMEPEOPLE is "don't add qualifiers (such as "King", "Saint", "Dr.", "(person)", "(ship)"), except when this is the simplest and most NPOV way to deal with disambiguation". I'd say Queen Victoria matches that exception perfectly. We have perfectly good existing standards for naming and disambiguation, and WP:NCNT should not undercut them.--Father Goose 23:36, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Hear, hear. And what's wrong with normal Misplaced Pages style Queen Victoria (United Kingdom) or Queen Victoria (Sweden) when disambiguation is required? --207.176.159.90 01:22, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Let me take the other side of this debate for a moment. The idea of this style seems to make sense, for example you would never use the name Dr. Robert Jarvik for the guy that invented the Artificial Heart, you use Robert Jarvik; titles should not be used like that. Secondly, and more importantly, preemptively disambiguating a name in certain cases, such as monarch names, is an expediant and a GOOD use of WP:IAR if there ever was one. Like, for example, cities in the U.S., where there may be dozens of each name, and so the articles always include the State name as a matter of course, there are likely to be many monarchs with the same name. Take for example King Henry IV, there have been no less than 3 Henry IV's which I can count among the best known monarchs of their office; The English, French, and Holy Roman Emporer are all exceedingly well known as to be equal in stature, as well there are multiple lesser Henry IV's, some of which have articles already, while some may not. Indeed, there are often so many monarchs of a name, that it seems to require more work to "undisambiguate" those few cases where a single monarch has that name. The naming convention works, it allows for the entire class of articles to use the same naming convention, which seems logical to me; why do we need half a dozen or so monarchs with a differently named article from the other hundred? For the sake of consistency, why not let ALL have the same style name of "Name # of Country" and let that be it. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 01:40, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

The basic naming convention dictates Robert Jarvik not Dr. Robert Jarvik because the "Dr." is unnecessary. The exact same thing is true of "of England" in most cases.

Just "Victoria", however, is ambiguous; that's why she's referred to in the real world as "Queen Victoria" -- and if you say that name, people will generally think of the UK queen, not the Swedish one. Now, as you point out, there's multiple well-known kings by the name Henry IV as well as a Shakespeare two-parter, which is why Henry IV goes to a disambiguation page. The basic policy is we only disambiguate when we have to. What WP:NCNT has created instead is Henry VIII, Richard the Lionheart (aka Richard I), Edward VII, Louis XIV, Elizabeth II, and dozens more not needing disambiguation being redirected to "pre-emptively disambiguated" page titles. It is WP:NCNT that needs to be ignored, and in fact dethroned, because it ignores the basic naming policy, which works much better.--Father Goose 04:44, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Presumably you mean Henry VIII of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel, Richard I of Aquila, and Elizabeth II of Bohemia? ;-) Kirill 05:02, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Consistancy would seem to trump the basic naming convention hear, and that is the MAIN part of my arguement. MOST monarch articles will need disambiguation, and thus to have undisambiguated titles for the small minority that need them seems to be unnecessary. We should not be blindly adhering to a guideline against common sense, and that is why the most important guideline, in this one case, is WP:IAR. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 05:33, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Back up that claim that "most monarch titles will need disambiguation". Looking through the lists of monarchs, I'm seeing more monarch pages that are needlessly disambiguated than ones that need it. We have absurdities like William I of England instead of William the Conqueror and hundreds of examples of Isabella II of Spain and Ivan III of Russia when we could just have Isabella II or Ivan III. Regarding IAR and common sense, I don't know if we're in disagreement or not. Calling the Queen Victoria article Queen Victoria is common sense, isn't it? And even more so if most monarchs do not need disambiguated names? I fear the person who came up with WP:NCNT had porphyria. Let's end this madness already.--Father Goose 08:06, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I think it was actually Richard I of Capua. And not everyone knows that the English kings in question were called "Conqueror" and "Lionheart". There is a case for titles being descriptive enough to tell people what is being referred to. Thus you have William I of England instead of William the Conqueror of England. Similarly, 1356 Basel earthquake, as opposed to Basel earthquake. Sometimes it is OK to have a little redundancy in the title at the expense of being informative. Carcharoth 15:44, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

William I lists 36 different articles. Though the English king MAY BE the best known, he has some good company near the top of this list, including the prominent Dutch king and the equally prominent German Emperor. Isabella II may be a notable exception, as I cannot find another Isabella II, but there are enough Isabellas that may indicate that one of these may be a II or that an Isabella II is out there and just doesn't have an article yet. There are at least 2 Ivan III's, one of Russia being the better known, but also one of Bulgaria as well as several dozen other Ivan monarchs out there. Again, while you CAN find RARE cases where a single name, such as Isabella II might NOT need disambiguation, consistancy would dictate that since MOST prominent monarchs appear to have duplicate names, it makes sense to have the SAME NAMING CONVENTION for all of them. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 01:38, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Ivan Asen III is Ivan Asen III. Ivan III is Ivan III. No ambiguity there. If you're looking for other monarchic Ivans, you should be looking at Ivan (name); who the heck looks up Ivan via Emperor John?

You claim that most prominent monarchs have duplicate names. In my survey of Misplaced Pages's monarch articles, I have found the opposite to be true. Rare cases where monarch names don't need disambiguation? There are hundreds. The need to disambiguate royal names is overstated, and this "pre-emptive" disambiguation approach is based on a fallacy. The end result is, yes, consistent -- consistently bad.--Father Goose 21:29, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Why is this discussion going on here instead of at the appropriate Talk page of the MoS? Corvus cornix 17:41, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I guess it was to gain wider interest. It could be continued there. Is it the done thing to copy this discussion across, so it remains accessible? Gwinva 22:29, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

It was indeed to gain wider interest. Discussing it at WP:NCNT I imagine it would only attract the attention of those who maintain monarch articles, and my contention is that they created a naming scheme for their own convenience that goes against our general naming conventions, which favor ease of use for readers, not editors.--Father Goose 22:09, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the argument of titles in the article name, I would never say, "Dr. Richard Jarvik invented the artificial heart", I'd say "Richard Jarvik invented the artificial heart". However, if someone asked me who the Victorian age was named after, I'd say, "Queen Victoria", not "Victoria of the United Kingdom". Charles 04:16, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Portals

Is there a standard about how important a topic should be to have its own portal? The one I am concerned about is Portal:Scientology. Thanks.Steve Dufour 22:11, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

The information you seek can be found at Misplaced Pages:Portal. As for the Scientology portal itself, I'd be willing to say that it's a significant enough topic that it could easily support its own portal. EVula // talk // ☯ // 22:24, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I did check that out. I didn't see anything like a clear standard of what is important enough for its own portal. I disagree about Scientology. It only has about 100,000 members in the world and a history of about 50 years. Steve Dufour 22:53, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Counted among those 100k members are some very, very prominent members of Hollywood. I'd say that Scientology, though it may lack in numbers, is certainly not suffering from an abundance of reliable coverage in the media, which is more important than raw (and relatively arbitrary) numbers. EVula // talk // ☯ // 23:46, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Most of that coverage is a mile wide and an inch deep. :-) Steve Dufour 01:30, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

As long as the portal isn't being used for propaganda (and it doesn't look like it is), I suggest dropping the matter; we really have better things to do here than to debate what level of media coverage is (somehow) "deep" enough to meet Misplaced Pages's criteria. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 21:38, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the portal probably doesn't do any harm. I won't bring it up again. However, I think the shallowness of media coverage shows that there is not all that much to say about the topic. Steve Dufour 02:18, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Because the media is well known for giving deep coverage to ideas —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.15.255.227 (talk) 21:14, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Required registration?

Denise Anthony, Sean Smith, and Tim Williamson's Explaining quality in internet collective goods: zealots and good Samaritans in the case of Misplaced Pages, page 18: "To deal with the negative impact of this group of contributors Misplaced Pages has instituted a policy that requires contributors to register after some number of anonymous contributions."

I found this after a post on Slashdot which also linked to a Dartmouth press release: "According to Anthony, Misplaced Pages now requires that anonymous contributors who make numerous edits must register."

I've never heard of this requirement, and WP:REG and Misplaced Pages:Contributing FAQ#Do I have to register to edit pages? says the opposite. Is this a policy in another language Misplaced Pages? -- Jeandré, 2007-10-18t11:54z

You might want to post this question at the Misplaced Pages-wide equivalent of the village pump: m:Metapub. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 21:33, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I know of several anon editors who have made thousands of article edits and have never registered. Everyone can edit is taken seriously. Certain tasks, such as article creation requires a username, and articles may be semi-protected to block vandalism from anonymous sources; however I have never seen or heard of such a policy. The policy at Misplaced Pages has always been, and hopefully always will be, that "anyone can edit and we mean it." --Jayron32|talk|contribs 18:24, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

If you have been involved in the things that media reports on you will soon realize they are often wrong. In this case they are wrong, anons do not need to register to continue editing, they are welcome if they behave. I often consider becoming an IP sometime. 1 != 2 18:27, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Grr, what's the IP of the editor who's made thousands of edits and his talk page is really funny with all of the people begging them to create an account? I can never remember. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 18:34, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

And Google comes through: User talk:68.39.174.238. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 18:37, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

There are dozens more. There is one guy who has a dynamic IP address in the 150s somewhere who is a very good editor. There are probably a dozen or so IP addresses that are ALL his, and they all have hundreds, if not thousands of contribs on it. There are probably a few hundred dedicated and good users who edit solely by IP address.--Jayron32|talk|contribs 05:15, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

For the record, the authors are aware of the mistake and have edited the press release (and assumedly will fix the paper in the next go-round). —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 03:13, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Questions about anglicizations of names

I've come across a couple of articles that are titled in Old Norse. My understanding is that articles should be under the most common or pertinent English spelling. Non-English names should redirect to the English version. Is this correct? This is particularly an issue here where the names uses a non-English alphabet. An example would be Þorvaldr Ásvaldsson where the note at the top of the article currently refers instead to the anglicization in the opening rather than the reverse. Again, my understanding is because this is the English Misplaced Pages, articles should be organized under English with other forms/languages being mentioned/included at the top of the article. Can someone point me at policy/guidelines on this? I've probably just missed something obvious... Pig 16:57, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions? - Mgm| 11:03, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
  • See Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (use English), specifically the Disputed issues section. It would appear there is no consensus on the use of characters like Þ, especially since Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (standard letters with diacritics) was rejected. If the article has been stable, I would not recommend changing it. There is a redirect from Thorvald Asvaldsson that should be updated with {{r from alternative language}}. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 11:28, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
    • Thanks to you both. I obviously missed the lack of consensus on some characters. Funny how I think some things about Misplaced Pages are stable and decided and firm, then find out I was wrong or things have changed since I last checked. I guess as long as the proper redirects are in place, it's not a big deal. Thanks again. Pig 16:47, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

The implications of GFDL and other wikis

One of our choices, if the material we have written, doesn't belong on the wikipedia is to take it to other wikis.

I visited the citizendium after reading about it on the The Times. Larry Sanger, a co-founder of the wikipedia is one of the founders of this project. Third time the charm?

Now everything we submit we submit underl the {{gfdl}} -- which is why the wikipedia has so many mirrors.

If I understand it properly the citizendium's interpretation of the {{gfdl}} is that once an editor makes a change to an article, it stops feeding readers the wikipedia's copy, and starts feeding the version modified by the citizendium editor. If I understand it correctly, the article's edit history on the citizendium includes its edit history here on the wikipedia. If I understand it correctly they regard this as necessary in order to honor {{gfdl}} liscenses of the original contributors.

So, would the citizendium be in breach of original contributors liscenses if the wikipedia community decides to delete an article, after a citizendium editor has forked a version there? Its historry mechanism will no longer be able to show the individual contributions of the individual editors.

Why am I even considering defecting from the wikipedia? Afd. In my experience the deletion fora are the weakest aspects of the wikipedia, because breaches of civility are so routine there.. The citizendium plans to replace {{afd}}, and our other deletion fora, with some other processes.

Well, maybe that is a problem to be discussed at the citizendium's village pump. But just how much cooperation should the wikipedia provide to competing wikis?

Now, if an article I have been a big contributor to gets deleted, I am still the original copyright holder of my contributions to that article. It seems to me that there should be no liscense problem with me submitting material I contributed to the wikipedia to another wiki. And I know I was the only contributor to the deleted article, there should be no liscense problem with accessing my text from the google cache. But, if someone else had made even a single spelling correction, then I can no longer use the google cache version, because the other contributors have their own rights under the GFDL, which include they have to be credited -- have I got that right?

If I was the only defector, or one of only a handful, of defectors, and defectors only wanted to copy the full edit history of a handful of articles there might be administrators willing to help on an ad-hoc basis. But, if there are going to be a lot of defectors that would obviously be insufficient.

I have read that some commercial wikis have a tool that will automatically build an archive, that allows a customer to pack up an article, and its edit history, or all the articles on a list of articles, and their edit history, so that the customer can carry it waway, and automatically unpack it into another wiki that uses the same software. If the wikipedia had access to this kind of tool, should it be made available to defectors? Is this a service defectors, or other wikis, should have to pay?

What about all those mirrors of the wikipedia? Do they have give readers access to the edit history so they too can honour the original contributors rights under the GFDL?

Cheers! Geo Swan 17:46, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

• You own the copyright to everything you submit, and can license it under any additional licenses you choose to. Whether anyone else has some copyright stake in it is legal advice we cannot provide here, but things like spelling corrects often do not attract copyright - in all cases, ask an actual lawyer.

As long as Citizendium retains the contribution history of an article, they can retain a forked copy of the Misplaced Pages article under the terms of the GFDL. Mirrors should be required to maintain some kind of contributor list for all articles, yes. In practice, many point to our list and we usually don't complain. The Wikimedia foundation can't actually pursue actions of GFDL violations anyhow, the copyright holders (i.e. the editors) would have to do that. WilyD 18:58, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

(ec) Under the GFDL you are generally expected to identify the prior title(s) and publisher(s) that the article appeared under, name (at least) 5 major contributors to the previous version(s) and provide a reference to the online location of the prior version (if one exists). You are not obligated to provide complete copies of those prior versions, or to ensure that they continue to appear online in the indefinite future. So in general, no, you aren't obligated to preserve edit histories or ensure those prior versions are still accessible. (There some ambiguities with regards to Misplaced Pages's treatment of histories that may require one to copy the entire list of history page contents, i.e. all names, edit times, and edit comments.) But in general, no, the existence / viability of the GFDL license is not dependent upon the continued accessibility of the Misplaced Pages edit history, provided you allow some other mechanism for identifying authors. Dragons flight 19:10, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Followup

I was asked to write a note about my first experience on the citizendium.

The details are in my note. I'll mention here though that my memory that the citizendium served wikipedia pages, until someone edited one, and kept the wikipedia edit history available, after forking off a new version on the citizendium was completely incorrect.

I am sure there is another wiki that does this. But it is not the citizendium.

Cheers! Geo Swan 11:45, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Chronological order in Talk page posts

Do the Misplaced Pages Talk page guidelines about preserving chronological order in Talk page topics also apply to the individual posts within that topic (or section)? If not, then is there some other Misplaced Pages guideline for this? I find that when too many people break the chronological order, the posts become very confusing to interpret. Am I the only one bothered by this? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:36, 18 October 2007 (UTC) Updated: Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:03, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

• Within a topic it's perfectly okay to break chronological order. I do it all the time. It's especially useful when you have a comment that applies to an earlier comment. Putting the two together can avoid a lot of misunderstandings. In forums you'd quote the message, here you post your response near said comment. - Mgm| 11:00, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

No, you're not the only one who is bothered by it. Comments get missed, it's messy and it can be confusing. Specific replies are not always quite such a problem, but even so, why not address the editor by name or make a reference to their comment? Adrian M. H. 19:17, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

The overhaul of UC (FD) - Do we need them?

Recently, I nominated Category:Wikipedians for deletion on UCFD, proposing the following rationale:

Nominator's rationale - The test tube nomination - This is no doubt going to raise a few alarms. After all, it would seem unthinkable, frivolous, and perhaps in bad faith to delete the core user category of Misplaced Pages, and thus throw all forms of self-categorization as comprehended by the Misplaced Pages community. Yet, this outrageous action does not come with no rationale.

• User categories are redundant - First, the prospect of the user category - in theory - is a fairly versatile and collective idealism. Users group together into a single category with their given knowledge or interest and this will be used to further the collaboration effort on Misplaced Pages. However, this is redundant to the Wikiproject. User categories are passive while Wikiprojects are active, and people who wish to seek collaboration on interests on an active scale can easily join a Wikiproject. Furthermore, any means of self-identification of interests can be done via userbox or identification on a userpage. If a Wikipedian is actively posting, he or she must therefore sign his or her signature, and a person who wishes to understand the position of this Wikipedian may merely click to the userpage and gather any information, or inquire as such.
• User categories are divisive - Wikipedians are, in fact, divided by user categories. Tensions regarding self-identification with political, religious, social, and sexual issues occur as a result, as previous debates on UCFD have shown in the past. The persistent roundabouts of the deletions of frivolous and potentially heated categories are a testament to this rationale. WP:NOT#SOAPBOX and such. In addition, there are categories present that indicate "notable" or "fantastic" Wikipedians, or those with community valor. There are alternate methods to present these symbols of status than through the user category system.
• User categories are staggering - ...and as a result, their purpose is lost. When you have an intensely large number of user categories in divisions such as Wikipedians by language, Wikipedians by ethnicity, or Wikipedians by location, one can see that it may seem far better to overhaul the user category system or merely provide sufficient indication by userbox/user page notice as a result.
• User categories are red tape - Really, would one actively search through user categories for a Wikipedian skilled in "foo" profession to aid in the construction or improvement of an article? It is more likely than not that the Wikipedian is already working actively on such an article, or it is already part of a Wikiproject.
• Conclusion: User categories need an overhaul, for better or for worse - Let's bring this to light. We need to do something to the user category system. Either an outright deletion, a depopulation, or a compression to something that we can make sense of. You may call me crazy, but I truly believe that something needs to be done to reshape this category.

I withdrew the UCFD later at the request of an administrator, who stated that he was currently in the process of overhauling the system, and that if any deletion was to be done at this level, it would be prudent to do so in a month. Yet consider my above statements; what has the user category system done for us that can be achieved more efficiently and satisfactorily with Wikiprojects, userboxes, user pages, and other Misplaced Pages think tanks?--WaltCip 22:32, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

• Yes, you can share your abilities and knowledge on your userpage, but putting them in categories (which incidentally is automated when you use a userbox), makes it searchable. Having the ubercategory Wikipedians allows us to have a complete list to see what categories are available and deleting that would make the whole thing fall apart. I totally agree that categorization by political preference can be divisive, but that is hardly a reason to delete the top category. Category:Wikipedians itself is not divisive. If this really needs an overhaul, try to get an alternative started, before deleting the current system. - Mgm| 10:49, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

• Searchable? In all of my experience on Misplaced Pages, I have never found myself requiring the user categories. They should be used for strictly administrative purposes. There are people who are proposing the rationale that user categories are for self-identification, and that they are "harmless." If you look at a majority of the user categories that are kept for "collaborative purposes", you will find that the editors inhabiting those categories are in there because it "seems to fit my interests", not because they are a ready source of encyclopedic information. We have active editors for this purpose.
• It's going to take a LONG time to get an effective overhaul started by deleting the categories that identify these Wikipedians by game preference, interest, philosophy, religion, etc., through the UCFD system, because there are no doubt groups of Inclusionists who feel like their personal freedoms are being detached from them. So instead we have to delete everything at once, and start all over again. It's the only way to restore its intended path of efficiency.
• I may be alone in this, but I don't think that just deleting the categories one-by-one is going to work. Look at the recent UCFDs here attempted by jc37 if you don't believe me.--WaltCip 23:48, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

• Last time I checked, whatlinkshere was incredibly messy and I'd rather have a alphabetized list, than a haphazard random one. - Mgm| 17:35, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

RFC on Misplaced Pages:List of Wikipedians by number of edits‎

There has been substantial disruptive editing at Misplaced Pages:List of Wikipedians by number of edits‎/latest. Although the page says in bold that editors may remove themselves from the list and should not be reverted, certain editors are in fact reverting on the grounds that editors don't own their contributions and have no right to ask to left off the ranked list, and that a ranked list is useless unless everyone is listed. I have filed an RFC requesting community input on whether on editors should be allowed to remove their names from the list. Thatcher131 16:32, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Could you provide a link to the RfC, please. LessHeard vanU 19:48, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I was restrained from calling a man a racist

I made a comment regarding American author James A. Michener and his racism. I flat out called him a racist in his wiki article, which last time I checked is accurate, so even if it is incendiary why should the truth be blocked? why should my IP address by flagged for conduct? The man made repeated comments in his own books regarding the inferiority of the black basketball player and their negative impact on the game. What is wrong for calling him out for what he is? If this is somehow wrong please let me know how....yaogrady@yahoo.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.114.68.230 (talk) 05:33, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure of the circumstances surrounding your block, but Misplaced Pages has fundamental policies regarding verifiability, reliable sources, and original research. Basically, identifying someone as racist would have to be confirmed by (multiple) reliable, secondary sources and the article would have to reflect a neutral point of view. An editor adding their own opinion to an article calling someone a racist would be reverted on sight. I would hope that our policies would have been explained to you before or after your block, but in case they haven't, there they are. If you'd like to read more, you can take a look at Misplaced Pages's five pillars. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 06:06, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

The term is generally derogatory, and has become so loaded as to be meaningless.I'd almost entirely avoid using it to label someone on Misplaced Pages. If they have been widely accused of racism, by all means include that with verifiable sources etc, but Misplaced Pages should not be a medium with which to actually label people as racists. --Breadandcheese 07:35, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

It's much more useful to actually quote someone, or add text describing their acts (in a neutral way - refused to let blacks eat at their restaurant, charged them twice as much for X, whatever), plus text saying that Z (a reputable person or source) said that they'd been accused (or were) racist, and let the reader decide for him/herself. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 14:44, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

The user was warned, not blocked. The comment he/she added is unsourced and utterly without context - basically "is a racist" to the first sentence of the article lead. Michener plunged head first into matters of race in his writings, and did so from the point of view of a mainstream white American male who was trying to be fair. As far as I'm aware he succeeded for the most part. Not everything he wrote in his 50-odd year writing career would be the way people say things today. That's hardly racist. By that standard nearly everyone who wrote anything 50 years ago is a racist. Although it might be worthy of an article somewhere on the changing norms and attitudes about race, we can't have editors going about slapping unsourced "is a racist" comments to the opening lines of biography articles. That is, or is very close to, the Misplaced Pages definition of vandalism, and the warning is in my opinion correct. Keep doing that and you shoudl be blocked from editing until you understand the policies. However, if there is truly a well-documented controversy about his comments on race, that might warrant a short mention, properly researched and cited, somewhere near the end of the article. Wikidemo 14:52, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, a former Indian foreign minister thought he was. Relata refero 18:15, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

At which point the verified quote can be attributed to that person within the article, but not as a blanket statement in the lead in sentance.144.15.255.227 21:11, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, 50 years ago, thinks were really different from know, and so were the people's opinions. As it is such an old case, I think you should not worry about it so much. If only it would have been recent, aye, but it wasn't. -The Bold Guy- 14:55, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Changing a guideline to a policy

Hello everyone! How does one (or in this case a group) go about trying to change a guideline into a policy? We at WikiProject Accessibility are using the guideline laid down at WP:ACCESS as our basis for making articles more accessible, but individual editors have reported problems with other users reverting their edits and claiming they need to be discussed on the talk page because WP:ACCESS is a guideline. Only in very rare cases are we actually removing content, so obviously this is getting to be a hindrance. Do you folks have any suggestions? Thanks, L'Aquatique 18:25, 20 October 2007 (UTC)!

• Misplaced Pages noticeboards
• Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines