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	: You are missing a ''very'' important point and distinction: this is not an article, but an official policy page. Yes, IAR applies here, and there is good reason to protecting of a core policy of the project. As for being bold, be that in articles, but not on policy pages. ] <small>]</small> 04:23, 25 October 2007 (UTC)		: You are missing a ''very'' important point and distinction: this is not an article, but an official policy page. Yes, IAR applies here, and there is good reason to protecting of a core policy of the project. As for being bold, be that in articles, but not on policy pages. ] <small>]</small> 04:23, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

			: Also, ] is a good thing in policy pages. Yes, I monitor policy pages as part of my duties as a ccommitted Wikipeedian (both as an editor and as an admin), to ensure that policy pages remain as a reflection of established practices, and to ensure that changes are discussed and agreed upon. ] <small>]</small> 04:26, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

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Primary sources vs. secondary sources

Live on Radio 2, Noddy Holder reviewed his own article and pointed out that he had never made a record with Anna Ford. This is clearly reported in the press - Anna has three references, but they are clearly all based on the same source. So Noddy Holder, a primary source, denies it, and you can listen again in the UK for the next week to verify this statement. However, we can go to another source, a database of the chart positions and find indeed there is no entry for this record. So we can verify by another primary source that the newspaper report is inaccurate. The newspapers are secondary sources, but clearly not reliable. And Stuart Maconie and Noddy Holder have just congratulated me for my efforts. Presumably, my edits should be removed as not desirable as they were based on setting primary sources against secondary sources. Discuss. Spenny 20:38, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't see what congratulations from the subject of a BLP has to do with it. The PSTS section in WP:NOR states:

Primary sources are documents or people very close to the situation being written about.. Primary sources that have been published by a reliable source may be used in Misplaced Pages, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. For that reason, anyone—without specialist knowledge—who reads the primary source should be able to verify that the Misplaced Pages passage agrees with the primary source. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a secondary source. ...

An article or section of an article that relies on a primary source should (1) only make descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and (2) make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims. Contributors drawing on primary sources should be careful to comply with both conditions.

This language is fairly plain. The editors of those two arcticles on recording artists you mention can readily reconcile any such contradictory sources by reporting the primary sources in keeping with the directions of PSTS and making note that newspapers have reported differently, noting the common source of those reports if at all possible. ... Kenosis 21:32, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think this language (which, by the way, is not the same PSTS language that existed from late 2006 to mid 2007) would allow what Spenny did to occur. First, Noddy's denial in the interview, a primary source, was an "explanatory claim", which supposedly cannot be made using a primary source. Furthermore, the wording says, "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a secondary source." Here, primary source material (the claim chart) was interpreted as omitting an entry for the record. But this interpretation was backed up by only a primary source (the interview). Therefore, what Spenny did would be prohibited. Which is not what we want. COGDEN 01:23, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

You're kidding, right? ... Kenosis 01:53, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Dead serious. This example illustrates that the above language has two problems:

It doesn't account for primary sources that make "explanatory claims".
It requires that "any interpretation" of a primary source requires a secondary source, even when:

The "interpretation" is obvious, non-controversial, and minimal (e.g., that a record is not listed on a chart), or
An even better "interpretation" may be found in a primary source.

COGDEN 22:20, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

This is a good example of the use of primary sources to counter secondary sources, which was one of the "bad" practices people wanted to use PSTS to prevent, wasn't it? Jacob Haller 02:12, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

No, not when simple facts are involved. ... Kenosis 02:39, 5 October 2007 (UTC) ... If the words, "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a secondary source" are that much misunderstood, just delete them when the page is unprotected, and I'll support the edit as best I can, for my own part. Maybe better yet, rewrite that sentence so it reads something like "Any use of primary-source material involving significant analytic or evaluative expansions of the plain meaning of the primary source requires a secondary source" . Or something like that. ... Kenosis 03:07, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I raised this as an example of a classic urban myth. For some reason some "fact" gets into the bloodstream of the press. It then circulates but is not contradicted, presumably because it is not apparently deemed important to do so. Misplaced Pages picks it up, arguably some trivia, but someone interpreted it as interesting and noteworthy. Citations are accurate, yet we find that it is disputed. I think the real issue is that, even though the claim is repeated, the press are simply not a enough of a reliable source for the source typing to work with. I don't think it is really an issue of source typing - but in these articles of pop culture, it is the world in which we live. It made an entertaining example as it played out on national radio and Misplaced Pages in front of our eyes. The claim appeared to be verified, but the sources were flawed, it was "not well verified, over truth". I would have thought that was the correct policy - and it shows that we should be extremely critical of any claim dependent only on the press. Spenny 07:09, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Kenosis, your suggestion "Any use of primary-source material involving significant analytic or evaluative expansions of the plain meaning of the primary source requires a secondary source" still doesn't address the problem. In many cases, a primary source itself contains significant analytical or evaluative expansion. You wouldn't be able to use commentary and analysis by the author himself, if the author is "very close to the situation being written about". Noddy, for example, could not analyze his own song lyrics. COGDEN 22:20, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

<undent> It's certainly an interesting example of source based research pushing the boundaries of NOR. In a sense the section (which I've not checked out) is based on the secondary news reports, but in checking these reports against primary sources they're found to be unreliable and in error. It makes good sense to report what the various sources say without drawing conclusions, but as soon as we start drawing conclusions we're getting into the field of investigative journalism. Which is why it's preferable, though in my view not essential, to find a secondary source drawing that conclusion. Just out of interest I came across an interesting claim today and commented on it, making it clear that we need a source other than the claimant before making too much of it. Whether the problem would be OR or RS is arguable, probably a combination of various policies. .. dave souza, talk 09:00, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

The case it strongly makes is that you cannot apply policy individually, and that in the end there is some editorial judgement to be made. I am not a fan of verifiability over truth in the sense that if you do not apply good judgement to verifiability you actually get neither. I've said before that my issue is in the wider arena of Misplaced Pages, we simply are not going to get learned journals and really reliable sources on this stuff, and we are a lot more dependent on the many eyes of Misplaced Pages to keep things straight. Spenny 10:54, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

If a conclusion is obvious and non-controversial, such as the fact that a record is not listed on a chart, it's actually better to cite the primary source than the secondary source. If a conclusion drawn from a source is obvious and apparent, a reader can verify it. If it is filtered through a third-party or fourth-party commentator, however, such commentators can make mistakes, and you can't verify whether there has been a mistake without going to the primary source. This example is an illustration of that. COGDEN 22:20, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Color me confused ... about exactly what Misplaced Pages is trying to achieve here.

First, the "primary" source definition is so loose that it seems counterproductive in many contexts. Normally primary sources are treated as the originals, the sources of all facts. Applied to technology, a collaboratively developed specification (e.g. rev 1.2) is a primary source. But allowing people very close to that source, e.g. contributors, have equal weight introduces error: two people may interpret the same paragraph differently, even if both were in the room when it was drafted. (Differences might be just emphasis or context; or could be more significant. They might both "explain" the same thing differently.) Normally (outside of Misplaced Pages) those "people" would be viewed as secondary sources with respect to that specification.
Second, all "secondary" sources will almost by definition be sources of error, so articles ought to prefer primary sources over secondary ones. Using that specification example, only the primary source document could ever be authoritative about what it says. Yet various places (like {{primarysources}}) claim that using secondary (and tertiary) sources is the way to increase accuracy! Which is complete and utter nonsense in all areas where I work; which, I'll note, do not include history or social science. (More than one person has observed that policies can differ between domains of scholarship ... e.g. "hard" vs "soft" sciences, vs engineering.)
Third, the reasons to use secondary sources include: to reduce work, since primary sources are sometimes hard to use (complex, specialized/abstruse, fragmentary, inaccessible, wrong language, off-net, etc); to help establish WP:NOTABILITY; providing meta-context, such as peoples' reactions to those primary sources; introducing viewpoints, conclusions, synthesis, and context; and probably a few other things. But they can never include increasing accuracy, and must always be weighed against the common intent of introducing some sort of bias. (Two different trade rags might cover a consortium specification very differently, based on whether consortium members advertise heavily with them or not.)

Seems to me the distinctions should be straightforward, and not so radically different from what I learned in elementary school, high school, college, and the work world. At least in "hard" sciences and engineering, it's a Very Good Thing to use primary sources ... not to be discouraged (i.e. change that policy). If the author/editor of an article can't or won't do that, for whatever reason, then it's fair to report what "quality" secondary sources say, with enough context (citations etc) to highlight the fact that these are not facts from authoritative sources.

--69.226.208.120 01:13, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

"Primary sources" and "secondary sources" are commonly used, well defined terms in the humanities, especially historical scholarship. In sharp contrast, they are not used in the sciences (hard or soft), where the words "primary" and "secondary" have a huge range of uses, but almost never in combination with the word "source". Misplaced Pages is not a scientific enterprise, it belongs to the humanities, and the standard conventions of enclopedias should be used. Where some specific matter involves primary and secondary sources from a hard science, I suggest that you should do the right thing, use the appropriate source, and be aware that there is a cross-disciplinary terminology issue.

One issue that is not properly addressed in wikipedia policy, is that "reliable" is an adjective that applies to primary sources but not to secondary sources. A secondary source is only as reliable as the primary sources it contains. A better measure of quality of a secondary source is "reputability". Secondary sources make comment, analysis, criticism of something else tranformatative of primary source information. The interesting question is whether that comment/analysis/whatever is reputable. There is no sensible question of it being reliable. The comment/analysis is there, plain to see. --SmokeyJoe 01:33, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a scientific enterprise ... not even when presenting scientific/technical topics? Broken! That's a formula for creating and disseminating falshoods/untruths, and FWIW not how I've seen encyclopaedias present technical topics. I really think that the guidelines should be explicit about the "terminology" issue, because it's just plain wrong for anyone to apply the methodology of history except to historical topics. (History of science is of course not science itself.) When the definition of A is A, no volume of commentors saying that A is instead B should be able to make an alternative story appear to be viable; this isn't Faux news redefining history. ("A is also B" is of course a different statement.)

That distinction between "reliable"/primary and "reputable"/secondary sources makes some sense, but again if one must present technical specifications in such terms, only a primary source could ever be "reliable" about itself. And I'm not sure there's consensus on your point; Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources seems to talk about secondary sources, not primary ones, and it hardly touches on reputation. (But I did update that page to bring out point that primary and secondary sources have domain-specific reliability implications.) And if some editor were to try to de-rate an article, perhaps even argue for deleting it, on the grounds that it should instead rely on secondary sources in order to be accurate ... one shouldn't need to deep-dive into Misplaced Pages policy discussions in order to justify the reality that this is an area where secondary sources can never be authoritative. --69.226.208.120 05:01, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Speaking of science subjects, I've just had occasion to ask an editor to find secondary sources as references for his proposals for the homeopathy article, all of which are based on primary sources (homeopaths, including himself) and support his claim that homeopathy is not pseudoscience. That certainly looks like classic original research to me, finding opinions and conclusions without a reliable third party source. ... dave souza, talk 07:25, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, pseudoscience needs to get properly treated. In "soft" sciences, personal interviews can be essential, and are "primary" sources in the same senses as with historians and for the same reasons. They aren't the team-reviewed specifications of my example. They are not "reliable" in themselves, and turning a set of interviews into a "reliable" source is indeed original research which would to some extent need to bank on someone's reputation. (I'm sure there's a more apt distinction than hard vs soft science, less loaded, but it's late and I can't think of one just now.)

My specific gripe is with respect to technology, where an article about X that presents highlights of the foundational specs for X (primary sources, nothing else could possibly be more reliable) should never need secondary references to improve "accuracy" about describing X. (No opinions, conclusions, or viewpoints involved...) But that is, nonsensically, what the {primarysources}} tag says is the rationale for secondary sources! I could understand wanting secondary sources to help motivate the inference of "notability"; but in this context, not accuracy. --69.226.208.120 09:05, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that medical science is a "soft" science? It seems to me that those educated enough to be well versed in "hard science" usage of primary / secondary should be able to understand that there's the more general usage that WP draws on for PSTS. Regarding your example, the present policy explicitly allows primary sources for facts, secondary sources are required for the context including notability, or the editor drawing on the primary source is relying on OR to assert the notability of the subject and to draw conclusions from the primary material. It's not a black and white situation, but in my experience is a useful explanation for many editors including myself. .. dave souza, talk 09:23, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

There are fields of medicine which use "soft" methods. Homeopathic field trials sure seem like they they'd need be one -- if homeopathy is to be any kind of science at all. Re the "present policy", one of the problems many people have noted is that it strongly favors secondary sources over primary ones. I'm not sure it'd be excessive to call that an anti-science bias, but it's certainly contrary to the way most fields of technology operate. That bias is so extreme that it seems to be a real problem in its own right. Especially since so many people just blindly follow policies, without necessarily being versed in that more general usage. --69.226.208.120 15:54, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Another example of this, to repeat a point above, is aircraft specifications from a manufacturer, which would be primary source under any of the various definitions and interpretations, but are considered the most reliable source within the field. Despite the general distrust for close sources, in aviation the opposite is true. Manufacturers are required to do rigorous testing to government and industry standards, and reliability is ensured both by professional ethics and strict liability for errors. For example, if an aircraft manufacturer overstated the performance for marketing purposes and this resulted in an accident, there would be severe financial penalties. We should never take the results of a casual flight test of one example of an aircraft published by an aviation magazine as more reliable than the results published by the manufacturer, but that is what PSTS would have us do. Dhaluza 13:39, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think there is a difference in how "primary" and "secondary" sources are treated in different fields. In the end, they are all historical. The purpose of sources is to convert an idea into a historical fact: to prove that some historical person had those ideas and contributed to the field. Therefore, a primary source is an original source of information or ideas, whatever their nature. In scientific fields, the primary sources are usually peer-reviewed journal articles, because that's where new ideas originate. Same with humanities and journalism fields, although new ideas and information can also arise in diaries, interviews, legal documents, etc., which are also primary sources.

In any field, scientific or historical, primary sources are more "accurate" (though not necessarily "reliable" in the sense of WP:RS) and less biased than secondary sources. Secondary sources are just primary sources filtered through the lens of a third party, a lens which often introduces inaccuracies and bias. However, secondary sources can themselves be used as primary sources—and usually are. The majority of sources used in Misplaced Pages are cited as primary sources, although many of them are also secondary sources. This is why the present formulation of the policy is so confusing, and why it causes so many problems. COGDEN 22:19, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with that when it comes to the field of history! Many primary sources (medieval annals, ancient texts, local histories, etc) have been proven to be highly inaccurate. And a primary source authors can be quite biased ... The annals of the Venerable Bede are a prime example. As a Christian Monk writing about (Pagan) Saxon England, he has a distinctly Christian bias in his accounts of things that happened. However, Bede would be considered a very reliable (as in WP:RS reliability) primary source for any article on Saxon England. Sure, some secondary historical sources can be inactuate and biased, but the vast majority are not. Blueboar 01:01, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

That's one example of an unreliable primary source, and there are many others. But on the other hand, things like diaries, tombstones, census records, immigration records, interviews, transcripts of speeches, church records, etc., are more accurate than secondary sources based on those records. In some fields, like religious history, where I work with a lot of articles, primary sources are markedly more accurate than secondary sources. The secondary sources try to create history in the image of the particular ideology or religious view of the secondary source author, and they cherry-pick primary sources to suit that view. Even when primary sources conflict, stating both primary sources together in an article is usually more accurate, and better reflects the uncertainty and inconsistencies of the historical record, than citing one particular secondary source that ignores one or the other and therefore manufactures certainty and consistency where none necessarily exists. COGDEN 18:48, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I have been pondering on this issue for several days now. For the area that I do most of my contributions which are historical articles PSTS is clear, useful and a shield against charlatans both inside and outside the project. However on reading this talk page I asked myself the question what if there is an article on philosophy for which there are only published articles in journals, from the original paper through to the last published one. I chose philosophy as there need not be any data attached to the first publication of such a paper, (which can cloud the issue over primary sources,) and if there is any previous publication it tends to be yet another published article ("standing on the shoulders of giants" or "turtles all the way down")

In such cases the I can understand the problem people have with PSTS, but my answer is in that in such case all the reference papers for such an article can be treated as secondary sources, or secondary and tertiary sources (since once a Misplaced Pages article is written there is at least one tertiary source). I think that this policy document could be strengthened if a caveat is introduced into the PSTS section pointing out that in some disciplines such as philosophy and theoretical science, there may be a lack of what Misplaced Pages calls primary sources and in such cases editors should rely on what Misplaced Pages describe as secondary and respectable tertiary source when editing a Wikipeda article based on the papers of such an academic disciplines. --Philip Baird Shearer 11:48, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I can't quite agree about that "lack of primary sources". That's pretty much definitional, since you can't have a secondary source without underlying primary ones. What I've observed is that it's secondary sources which are in short supply, since everyone uses primary sources directly. In my eyes the issue is that many people are wrongly focussed on primary vs secondary sources, as opposed to authoritative or even just reliable ones. Plus, any focus on academic disciplines and methodologies to the exclusion of professional ones (like technology practice) substantially undermines core goals of Wikpedia. --69.226.208.120 15:54, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I think you have picked up on one of my assertions: this primary/secondary thing has undue weight. The real issue is reliable sources, and it grates to be told that a reliable source is discounted over some journalistic clap-trap. Somehow, the lack of reliability in the nature of that source is compensated for by the fact there is some editor doing his utmost to ensure only unbiased facts get into his paper... Spenny 17:01, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Please that I did not say that that papers written for disciplines such as philosophy and theoretical science are secondary sources ,I said can be treated as secondary sources. The thing which I think you are missing Spenny is in the fields such as history there is a clear difference between primary and secondary sources, and as a lot of Misplaced Pages articles are concerned with subjects that have such a distinction, to deny that such distinctions exist is in my opinion not helpful. See the example I gave above over interpreting a sentence in international treaties. I'll give another example in article 23 of the IV Hague Convention (1907) it says "it is especially forbidden -... To kill or wound an enemy who, having laid down his arms, or having no longer means of defence, has surrendered at discretion;" it is probably clear what this means up to the word defence, but what does the qualification "has surrendered at discretion" mean? This can only be answered with the use of a secondary expert source. Another example of primary/secondary sources cropped up on the talk page of the River Teme.

The comment: "It would be helpful and informative to have more information about what is in the Journal of Railway and Canal Historical Society articles - assuming these are the best available articles at this time, it would improve Misplaced Pages to add more of their content. ... 172.143.168.154 08:59, 25 May 2007 (UTC)"

The answer: "The policy of Misplaced Pages is WP:NOR. That means that only published sources should be cited. Several of the references are to archives; other articles are too detailed to be set out in an encyclopaedia article. If you want to see the articles, I would suggest you find them in a library or order them via Inter-library loans. For example, this article formerly claimed that vessels went up to Bringewood with cargos of iron (or something like that). The account for Bringewood survive from 1733 to about 1778 and clearly distinguish freight (always on the river Severn) from carriage (always by land). This information is taken from the original accounts (now in Worcs Record Office), thus not an acceptable source for WP, and clearly contrdicts what was formerly claimed. Peterkingiron 21:23, 26 May 2007 (UTC)"

What I an trying to do above is to suggest that for some academic disciplines this dichotomy (of primary and secondary sources) is not appropriate and all sources in those disciplines should be treated as secondary sources. --Philip Baird Shearer 17:44, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

What are some examples of academic disciplines where this is the case? ... Kenosis 18:14, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

For example disciplines such as philosophy, pure mathematics and theoretical science --Philip Baird Shearer 18:45, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Re all sources in those disciplines should be treated as secondary sources ... why not just come out and say the obvious: that what matters is the source's authority/reliability? Because treating them as secondary means more than "you won't get flamed for referencing them"; it also means they're sufficient to establish notability. But that's nonsensical, since would allow primary sources to declare themselves as notable. The problem is that this primary/secondary distinction doesn't consistently relate to reliability. So it's better not to use that distinction where that's the issue. --69.226.208.120 20:29, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with "you won't get flamed for referencing them" it has to do with the difference between how those sources designated primary and those designated secondary can be used within a Wikiedia article. --Philip Baird Shearer 12:25, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

--Philip Baird Shearer, I agree that the distinction has difficulty in scientific fields (I would argue that the difficulty is even more problematic in humanities fields, including history and journalism). But rather than creating an Misplaced Pages-specific exception to the meaning of "secondary sources", why don't we just use other terminology. Let's get back to basics. I really believe we can craft a PSTS replacement that (1) prevents editors from using sources to inject their unpublished ideas into articles, and (2) has a consensus, or at least more of a consensus than the PSTS formulation. COGDEN 22:31, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

How can you argue "that the difficulty is even more problematic in humanities fields, including history and journalism"?, because In my opinon in history and other areas like international realations, the distinction between primary and secondary sources is (usually) clear and is useful. See the example (article 23 of the IV Hague Convention (1907)) I gave above. I would like you to address how you would tackle such an issue without the primary/secondary divide. --Philip Baird Shearer 12:25, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Spenny yes, absolutely: this primary/secondary detour ignores the (cough) primary issue. I don't think I've noticed anyone disagreeing that the issue is what's called "reliability". A thus-far unstated issue is that assessing reliability can unfortunately get political. Maybe some folk would rather have a "bright line" (primary/secondary) distinction than open up those sorts of problems any more than necessary? --69.226.208.120 00:36, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Alternative proposals: straw poll.

I'm writing a couple of proposals based on some of the recent discussion. The purpose here is not to "vote in" one version or the other. I just want to see which version is better, so that we can focus our efforts on achieving consensus. Keep in mind that these proposals are not perfect, and are just a starting point, not a final product. If you feel that both proposals are unacceptable, please don't say "neither". Instead, please create a "proposal 4" or a "proposal 5", etc., or suggest something calculated to move us toward consensus. This period of lack of consensus and flux has gone on far too long, and we need to start making positive proposals and positive efforts to move toward consensus.

Source-usage proposal 1: no primary/secondary source distinction

Research that consists of collecting and organizing material from existing sources within the provisions of this and other content policies is encouraged: this is "source-based research," and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. However, care should be taken not to "go beyond" the sources or use them in novel ways.

Within Misplaced Pages articles we will find statements of fact and statements of interpretation, analysis or conclusion. It is important to cite the right sources to back those different types of statements. Statements of fact should be cited to reliable sources that clearly demonstrate that fact. Statements of interpretation, analysis or conclusion should be cited to reliable sources that contain the same interpretation, analysis or conclusion.

Editors cannot include their own interpretations of previously-published facts, unless that interpretation is either 1) an obvious and non-controversial consequence of the facts or 2) can be attributed to a reliable source. Nor can editors expand on an author's interpretations of fact, unless that expanded interpretation is also found in a reliable source.

Sources should be used in a way that does not give rise to new analyses, syntheses or original conclusions that are not already present in the sources. In short, the policy of "No original research" requires that Misplaced Pages users stick to the sources.

Source-usage proposal 2: yes primary/secondary source distinction

One useful way to ensure that a Misplaced Pages passage does not "go beyond" the sources is to consider the difference between what are often called primary and secondary sources. A primary source is a document or person with original information concerning the matter being written about. Primary sources are usually close to the matter at issue, and present information that is not filtered through a third-party. A secondary source is a document or person who obtains the relevant information from another source. Secondary sources may repeat or comment on primary sources, but do not provide first-hand information.

Misplaced Pages is not a primary source, and may never ~~contain primary~~ be the original source of information. Rather, Misplaced Pages is a secondary (or even tertiary) source. Misplaced Pages may repeat and quote sources, but may not present undocumented information or theories concerning those sources. To the extent Misplaced Pages comments on a source or analyzes it, such commentary or analysis must not be original, and must be verifiable. Conducting background research that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing primary and/or secondary sources is, of course, strongly encouraged. All articles on Misplaced Pages should be based on information collected from reliable published sources. This is not "original research"; it is "source-based research", and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. However, in presenting such information in a Misplaced Pages article, great care should be taken not to take the information contained in the sources out of context or present it in a manner that violates the provisions of this policy.

Source-usage proposal 3: minimal say nothing about sources

{nothing: the general OR policy is sufficient, and we need not make specific reference to sources}

Source-usage proposal 4: clarified intro, revised primary/secondary source section

Misplaced Pages articles include statements of fact, as well as statements of interpretation, analysis or conclusion about these facts. Statements of fact should be cited to reliable sources that clearly demonstrate that fact. Statements of interpretation, analysis or conclusion, including the notability of facts, should be cited to reliable sources that contain the same interpretation, analysis or conclusion. Editors must avoid including their own interpretations of facts.

In short, the policy of "No original research" requires that Misplaced Pages users stick to the sources.

Primary, secondary, and tertiary sources

In taking care to avoid "going beyond" the sources or using them in novel ways, sources can be considered in terms of three categories:

Primary sources are documents or other sources written by people very close to the situation being written about. Primary sources that have been published and meet the reliable source criteria may be used in Misplaced Pages, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. For that reason, anyone-without specialist knowledge-who reads the primary source should be able to verify that the Misplaced Pages passage agrees with the primary source. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a secondary source.

Examples of primary sources include archeological artifacts; photographs; United Nations Security Council resolutions; historical documents such as diaries, census results, video or transcripts of surveillance, public hearings, trials, or interviews; tabulated results of surveys or questionnaires; written or recorded notes of laboratory and field notebook|experiments or observations; and artistic and fictional works such as poems, scripts, screenplays, novels, motion pictures, videos, and television programs; sources which are the subject of the article or are closely involved in promoting the subject of the article.

An article or section of an article that relies on a primary source should (1) only make descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and (2) make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims. Contributors drawing on primary sources should be careful to comply with both conditions.

In some cases, such as peer-reviewed scientific papers, primary sources can provide the best and most accurate sources of fact. However, articles must be based on reliable third party sources, and care should be taken in considering the reliability of sources which have a close interest in the subject of the article.

Secondary sources draw on primary sources to make generalizations or interpretive, analytical, or synthetic claims. A journalist's story about a traffic accident or a Security Council resolution is a secondary source, assuming the journalist was not personally involved in either. An historian's interpretation of the decline of the Roman Empire, or analysis of the historical Jesus, is a secondary source.

Tertiary sources are publications such as encyclopedias and other compendia that sum up other secondary sources and primary sources. Some tertiary sources are more reliable than others, and within any given tertiary source, some articles may be more reliable than others. For example, articles signed by experts in a general or specialized encyclopedia can be regarded as reliable sources.

Secondary and tertiary sources can provide both statements of fact, and statements of interpretation, analysis or conclusion about the facts which are the subject of the article or section. They should be used in a way that does not give rise to new analyses, syntheses or original conclusions that are not already present in the sources.

Source-usage proposal 5: clarified intro, primary/secondary source essentials

In short, the policy of "No original research" requires that Misplaced Pages users stick to the sources.

Primary, secondary, and tertiary sources

See Primary, secondary, and tertiary sources FAQ for guidance and examples

In taking care to avoid "going beyond" the sources or using them in novel ways, sources can be considered in terms of three categories:

Primary sources are documents or other sources written by people very close to the situation being written about. Primary sources that have been published and meet the reliable source criteria may be used in Misplaced Pages, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. For that reason, an article or section of an article that relies on a primary source should (1) only make descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and (2) make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims.

Contributors drawing on primary sources should be careful to comply with both conditions.

Secondary sources draw on primary sources to make generalizations or interpretive, analytical, or synthetic claims.
Tertiary sources are publications such as encyclopedias and other compendia that sum up other secondary sources and primary sources. Some tertiary sources are more reliable than others, and within any given tertiary source, some articles may be more reliable than others. For example, articles signed by experts in a general or specialized encyclopedia can be regarded as reliable sources.

Source-usage proposal 6: less-controversial compromise revision of #5

In short, the policy of "No original research" requires that Misplaced Pages users stick to the sources.

Primary and secondary sources

See Primary and secondary sources FAQ for guidance and examples

In taking care to avoid "going beyond" the sources or using them in novel ways, sources can be considered in terms of two categories:

Primary sources are documents or other sources written by people very close to the situation being written about. Primary sources that have been published and meet the reliable source criteria may be used in Misplaced Pages, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. For that reason, an article or section of an article that relies on a primary source should not interpret the facts stated in the source, unless that interpretation is either (1) an obvious and non-controversial consequence of the facts stated in the source or (2) can be attributed to the primary source itself or another reliable source. If a primary source makes its own interpretations of fact, editors cannot expand on that interpretation unless that expanded interpretation is verifiable by reference to a reliable source

In some cases, such as peer-reviewed scientific papers, primary sources can provide the best and most accurate sources of fact. However, articles must be based on reliable sources, and care should be taken in considering the reliability of sources that have a personal interest in the subject of the article.

Secondary sources repeat the original information found in primary sources, and often make further interpretive, analytical, or synthetic claims.

Secondary sources can provide statements of fact, as well as statements of interpretation, analysis or conclusion about the facts which are the subject of the article or section. They should be used in a way that does not give rise to new analyses, syntheses or original conclusions that are not already present in the sources.

Do you have a "proposal 7"? If so, place it here. Please make sure it is fundamentally different from the above proposals. If it is a relatively non-controversial an edit or suggestion, you may mark up the above proposals

Which is better: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6?

Please indicate which of the above proposals is better (or best), and a brief explanation why. Do not say "neither" unless you have a positive proposal to add, or something calculated to move us toward consensus. Marking up any of the above proposals is allowed. If you are okay with both, say that, so we know if there is a consensus to move in that direction.

1 or 2: I think both are essentially equivalent. COGDEN 07:30, 9 October 2007 (UTC).
- I think version #4 is problematic, particularly the statement "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a secondary source." Actually, primary sources can interpret themselves or other primary sources. #4 is too complicated, and much of it has nothing to do with OR, and belongs in the NPOV policy or its own article.COGDEN 17:42, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
- As to #5, I think that's much better than #4, but it still contains serious inaccuracies. For example, the statement that articles relying on primary sources can "make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims" is not true. Primary sources may themselves contain analytical and explanatory claims. There is no Misplaced Pages consensus that you can't quote a primary source for its own analytical claims. COGDEN 17:42, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
- 6: I'm willing to live with it, though I don't think it's ideal. At least it's a roughly accurate description of current Misplaced Pages convention and practice. COGDEN 18:04, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
4 has a lightly copyedited version of proposal 1 as an overall statement, then a revised PSTS subsection related to that statement, explicitly stating the requirement for third party sources and the preferred use for fact of, for example, peer reviewed scientific papers. .. dave souza, talk 22:04, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
- 5 trims the PSTS section to essentials, with explanations and examples moved off to a new FAQ guideline. .. dave souza, talk 11:48, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
4 Seems to be both the best written and keeps in the needed disinction between primary, secondary and tertiary sources which is necessary for NOR to have teeth. JoshuaZ 22:45, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
- How does adding a primary/secondary/tertiary sources add "teeth" to the NOR policy? To me, it seems to make it gummy, by adding confusion and ambiguity. You want to add your own crackpot creationist theory? Don't cite a primary source thermodynamics paper, just cite an evangelical author's interpretation of that paper that supports your theory. You can't even argue that approach with version #1. I favor #1 because nothing in it is controversial that I can see, and it has the advantage of being clear, concise, and offers a bright-line rule, which adds considerable teeth to the policy, in my view. COGDEN 20:22, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
1 or intro to 4. My personal belief is that detailed discussion of types of sources should be presented in a guideline, not a policy. I believe policies should be limited to clear, non-negotiable principles, while matters that involve implementing and executing principles in ways subject to complications and exceptions that require judgment is what guidelines are for. I think discussion of source categories is the latter type. Best, --Shirahadasha 23:30, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
- This was something I gave thought to, and while it's good to have explanations including examples included in self-contained policy documents to avoid excessive cross-referencing, it's attractive to strip the policy to essentials as I've done in proposal 5 above. .. dave souza, talk 11:48, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
I tend to lean towards #4. I really would like to see something like "most introductory-level textbooks" included as an example of a class of tertiary source. ... Kenosis 23:40, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
1 is best because it avoids the unnecessary diversion into source typing that only causes more arguments than it solves. WP is supposed to be a general purpose encyclopedia anyone can edit, but the search for a general purpose definition of primary/secondary sources that anyone can understand has proved fruitless. There is no need to continue searching for that holy grail, when we have perfectly usable cups on the shelf. Dhaluza 00:28, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
- However, that significantly weakens policy directly related to the use of sources for fact or analysis, and thus at the heart of NOR. .. dave souza, talk 11:48, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
  - How so? By explaining the NOR policy without unnecessary complexities, #1 actually strengthens the NOR policy. The more I see this assertion as fact, the more it looks like PSTS here to benefit PSTS, not explain NOR. Dhaluza 23:25, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
1 seems best. Most of the sources for most of the articles I've been working on fall through the cracks of PSTS. Jacob Haller 01:43, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
- Please note that 4 and 5 include new language to make explicit that in some circumstances primary sources provide the best source of fact. Does that meet your concerns? ... dave souza, talk 11:48, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
  - Nope. Some of the anomalous sources are political or theological treatises by one or more of the subjects of the articles. These are neither primary, nor secondary, nor remotely tertiary by the definitions in #4 and #5. These are sources for their authors' views. As written #5 requires non-primary sources (these are neither primary nor secondary; expect edit wars) and favors third-party sources (these are first party, but their critics are third-party. who's more reliable?). Jacob Haller 20:41, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
- Still 1 - 6 is an improvement over 5 but the source-typing still mishandles interpretive primary sources. We could distinguish fact-heavy primary sources from interpretation-heavy primary sources - lab notes would be the former, political essays would be the latter, and most research papers would be in between. Finally we would need historical sources, as in the issue of the 1880 newspaper. Jacob Haller 21:48, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
5 I think it is a good rewording of existing policy, that is not so controversial as to be damned, but rebalances the wording to address a number of concerns. A useful step forward. Spenny 12:22, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
5 seems best to me. It still enforces the distinction between types of sources without getting bogged down in what type a source is, let that get handled on the FAQ, guideline, whatever it turns out to be. I could live with 4 if I had to, but perhaps instead of third-party, maybe second-hand might be better, though that still can have a conotation of second-rate. wbfergus 13:30, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
4 (first choice) & 5 (second choice) – we need good explanation of types of sources in official policy -- Vision Thing -- 18:23, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Take a look at Misplaced Pages:No original research/Sandbox/Various examples and then take a look at primary sources (not to mention secondary sources and tertiary sources). Do we (or anybody), really want that much 'stuff' in this policy? All those definitions of various source types have nothing to do with OR or NOR. It may be useful during some discussions, but has no bearing really on if something is OR or not. It's how the source is used, not the source itself. Or, probably more accurately, it's how the 'data' from the source is used, and in what context, not what 'type' the source is. wbfergus 18:51, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

None of the above. I believe this draft is far superior to the above examples 4 and 5. It is far more clear about what is being discussed and why. However, I will still note my opposition to a secondary/tertiary distinction, which I find to be superfluous (and is noted even in academia as an unclear distinction) and therefore an additional useless layer of complexity. I believe both 1 and 2 contain terribly unclear language that will lead to far more confusion and conflict that already exists. I am not unsympathetic to the intent of those proposals, however the form they take is utterly unacceptable to me. In particular, the third paragraph of 1 is rife for abuse. Opening it from the POV of exceptions for an editor's opinion is particularly poor form. Also, "an obvious and non-controversial consequence of the facts" is far too broad, inviting arguments along the line of "it's obvious and not contradicted by the sources". 2 seems to mix without clarity primary sources as the original source of facts & claims and primary sources as non-independent references, or those close to the subject. Vassyana 05:55, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Not disagreeing. What I thought about this was that it would be healthy to try some incremental changes in the right direction, seeing as getting progress was rather fraught. I did a comparison with what was there now and what was proposed and thought it was a step in the right direction. I had a theory that we should get used to policy changes being changed occasionally :) Spenny 16:01, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't disagree. However, I think the current proposals are as unclear, or moreso, than the current text. As I tried to emphasize, I believe clarity is a central concern. It's no improvement to move towards some equally or more unclear. I think the previous draft I link (rlrubenstein's?) is quite similar to the current version in policy, but significantly clearer in its presentation and intent. Vassyana 23:38, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

None of the abovem 1 and 2 are a terrible way to address this issue, with the potential of negative unintended consequences down the line. 3 is not an option. 4 and 5 need work, maybe along the lines of previous proposals as per Vassyana's above. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:29, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
- 1. 3 is an option. It's not a good one, but it's the one that will be forced upon us if we fail to reach any consensus. So you disagree with anything in particular stated in #1 or #2? Or is it just that you so badly want to include the language you favor that you will not accept any option that doesn't include your favored language? COGDEN 22:42, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

1 looks good as it avoids introducing counterproductive complexity. However, in view of so many people who think that splitting sources into categories is useful, I can also go along with:
2 which may be a good start as it provides a compact sketch of source categories without taking the reader for a ride. But what should be mentioned, is the distinctions that have practical use for NOR:

1) Data facts should be backed up by references to the original (primary) sources that give that data, just as is done in scientific literature (not second-hand info!).

2) Interpretation of such (primary) sources should in turn be backed up by references to (secondary) sources that make that interpretation.

It could be useful to give more detailed explanation about primary, secondary etc. sources in Misplaced Pages but not on the policy page. A manual similar to WP:NPOVT would be appropriate for such explanations. Harald88 11:44, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

The interpretation of primary source data need not come from a secondary source. It can also come from a the primary source itself. Many primary sources (particularly journal articles) contain both primary information and an analysis of that primary information. Citing that analysis is fine, and is not OR. COGDEN 18:16, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Note also that peer-reviewed scientific publications are more appropriately called secondary sources - which shows again that not too much attention should be drawn to such categories! - A good example of a reliable primary source would be an authenticated letter of one scientist to another in which a result is communicated. 83.77.88.88 12:26, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Some disagree, but usually peer-reviewed scientific journals are classified as primary sources, since they contain original (primary) information. They are the primary source of the new scientific information, idea, or theory presented therein, which is usually why you cite them. COGDEN 18:16, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

None of the above, or rather Only the intro from 4/5/6 or a tersified version of 1. Discussions of primary/secondary sources are not pertinent to NOR (they may be to RS). In this context, original research refers to any paraphrasing (or "selective" quotation) to make a source appear to say something that it does not explicitly or obviously say, or to suppress qualifications/reservations that the source makes. This applies to all sources, irrespective of whether they are primary, secondary or tertiary. -- Fullstop 13:39, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
4 or 5. I feel strongly that the types of sources need to be included. Regarding OR, WP is quite different to what contributors are used to when it comes to academic writing. When writing your thesis, you are encouraged to produce OR -but not here. It's a different beast. <<-armon->> 22:50, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Even in a thesis, though, citing a primary source is not original research. When writing a thesis, you cite primary sources because they are the best source of old research. Then you add your new ideas, which are indeed OR. With Misplaced Pages, we just omit the last step. However, we still need to cite primary sources to describe the old research and previously-published ideas. When we can't get primary sources for a theory, idea, or data, we use secondary sources. (E.g., when we can't cite Einstein's thoughts on Relativity, we cite Brian Greene's thoughts on what Einstein was thinking). COGDEN 18:16, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I think you're missing the point. In an article on Relativity, we don't cite a secondary source on Einstein's thoughts simply because we can't mind-read, but because we need an expert to tell us what thoughts were relevant, and how and why they are. Even if all Einstein's thoughts were recorded, we still need a secondary source -otherwise, anyone could create any number of OR narratives simply by selection what to highlight. This is precisely why primary sources are problematic for our purposes. As these policy pages should a way for good faith editors to understand what we're doing, and serve as a way to avoid arguments, it's important to include it. <<-armon->> 03:49, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

By "thoughts", I mean Einstein's theories and ideas about Relativity, which are highly citable. It might be useful to have a second "expert" filter the ideas of a first expert. But that doesn't mean that citing the first expert is original research. Likewise, citing irrelevant material is not original research. It's irrelevant research.

The problem with this line of thinking that says editors can't be trusted to cite information directly from the horses mouth shows its ugly head most prominently when scientist #2 is actually a crackpot scientist. Is what a crackpot scientist says about what Einstein says more important than what Einstein says himself? How about a creationist, a flat-earther, or an evangelical? True, secondary sources filter irrelevant information, but filters are often ideological, too. And sometimes, secondary sources filter out the truth, by introducing mistakes and misinterpretations. And none of this has to do with original research, anyway. COGDEN 00:45, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

2b below or 4. The types of sources need to be included. The missing here is distinction between scholarly/scientific sources and others. For example, an article in a peer-reviewed scientific journal (primary source) could be better than a newspaper report on a scientific discovery written by a journalist without proper background (such reports are often laughable for a specialist). The scholarly sources can be retrieved by Google Scholar, for example.Biophys 23:48, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

That's an issue for WP:RS, not Original Research. If it's old, published research, even if it's completely unreliable crackpot research, it's not original. It's unreliable, just not original. We need the OR page to stick to the point. COGDEN 18:16, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Likewise, I think there should be some discussion of reliable sources. It's not off topic because these issues are interrelated. Because WP is a encyclopedia that anyone can edit, in order for it to work, contributors must understand why the prohibition on OR is in place. <<-armon->> 03:49, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

It confuses people to say that "X is original research" when actually, it isn't. I don't see how confusing "reliable" with "original" adds any clarity to the policy. COGDEN 00:45, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

"Misplaced Pages is not a primary source, and may never contain primary information." That is ambiguous as it can be read as, "we cannot copy information from a primary source and use it here." What it means to say is more like "Misplaced Pages is not a primary source, and may never be used to publish original, or primary, information." I wonder if that is the source of some of the confused debates in the past? Spenny 08:03, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the ambiguity, and I'm making a minor edit. COGDEN 08:17, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Would a sensible other version be to combine the two: talk about facts, then note that there is a useful tool that can be used to help the thinking about sensible sourcing. Spenny 08:05, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure that someone believes that these options are an improvement, but I'll be damned if I can see how. Anything that does not differentiate between primary, secondary and tertiary is a non-starter. And by the way, Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source -- no, really, it is. Jim62sch 17:30, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think your comment is a constructive one. We need to arrive at consensus here, and if you don't agree, please offer your own version. If everything is a "non-starter", then we'll never get consensus, and the default will be option #3 (when consensus cannot be achieved, we say nothing). Starting from scratch, I'd like to know which version, #1 or #2, moves us in the right direction toward consensus. Surely one of them is an improvement over saying nothing, right? If we chose #1 or #2 (or both), would you block our progress toward consensus in that direction? COGDEN 20:16, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I simply cannot contribute to wikipedia and follow these neverending, boring and depressive discussions, so sorry, but i'll post this intervent to make clear how many things are seen in a real wrong way:

I, again, have to say that Misplaced Pages policies cannot grant the reliability nor search about truth. This example above written:

Caesar's Gallic War is considered a pinnacle of ancient reporting. It however is also considered a fine example of propaganda writing and is known to contain numerous errors of hearsay. We cannot use it to support facts independently of reliable secondary sources without violating the basic principles of no original research and neutral point of view.

In other words, if you post something that is from secondary source it's OK, no thinking is need, on the contrary, activate own mind is forbidden. If you post something that is from primary source it must be discrimined from propaganda claims and facts.

Well, just tell me, Misplaced Pages searchs the truth only when primary sources are involved? So i can post every newspaper he said/she said and confutate or support every thing, even if it's Murdoch news talking about GWB? Hitler talking about Jews? Mussolini about fascism? No thanks, there's something really wrong with this discrimination. You cannot 'search the truth' only when a primary source is involved, forbid an analisis that MUST be used if you want 'discriminate' between propaganda claims and 'facts' (yes this involved brain activities) on every source, included that famous british racist encycl that almost started wikipedia.

In substance, Wiki forbids 'personal POV' and 'Original Research' but on the other hand, suggest 'analysis' on facts and claimings, but just from primary sources. This seems quite absurd to me. One wikipedian cannot seriously 'made' discriminations between facts and propaganda 'relativized' just to the kind of sources. And what about thertiary sources? Misplaced Pages.en, is true that boosted thanks to a 1911 british enciclopedy? And so why this 'disprace' for other enciclopedies (written by professionists, moreover)?

Botton line. I think, and i am not alone, that burocracy and tecnocracy, without clue of their limits, tends to de-humanize and worsening the society, treating humans as machines or 'problems'. The simple fact that Misplaced Pages cannot recognize that every enciclopedy written in the history has both 'OR' and 'NNPOV' and pretend to be 'different' with two zillions not-professional-and generally anonimous-workers is ,frankly speaking' laughable and out of reality.

Claiming the proibition of 'OR' with secondary sources and the 'syntesis' while at the same time is requested to discriminate on the type of sources (primary, sec, third, reliable, unreliable and so on...) is cleary an abstract construction, that gives only to wikilawyers the arrows to take out unliked statements, even if quite trivials.

Another thing, all this display also how the trust on wikipedians is really low because if not, it would be not necessary all this arrays of 'policies'. This bring also to much hipocrisy, because you cannot call for wikilove when you see the 'other' just a potential lyer and troll. And moreover, you can't say seriosly that my (or someone else) brain has no right to think while you asks for 'sintetize' with 'other words' available (and often in conflict) sources, re-writing and merging in a single article several book, magazine, newpapers articles.

Misplaced Pages calls for the 'use of brain' (for copyright), so it's laughable that then order to 'not express own opinions' during the process. Psicologically, biologically and logically it's simply impossible. And this will been until Wiki will be made directly by bot programs (if properly programmed).

All the words in this and other discussions means only that is pratically impossible to accept the only possible conclusion about OR and other stuff: if you run an opera like Misplaced Pages you cannot (even if this is the final dream for burocrats/tecnocrats) avoid lies, false statements and many other things, and the only way to improve Misplaced Pages is simply the partecipation and the discussion about this and that article. Let's let pruned by selection and logic the articles instead to fall in Maccartysm and hunt for witches and eretics. No to zealots, publicans and phariseis, but yes for a community capable to facing one each other work. --Stefanomencarelli 21:40, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not really following your point, but maybe you can answer this question: starting from scratch, which of the above proposals, #1 or #2 or both, most leads us in the general direction toward consensus, and would you or would you not block progress toward consensus if we headed in that direction? Or do you have a fundamentally different proposal you'd like to add? Or any suggestions to the above proposals? COGDEN 21:54, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I can clarify his point (I think): It's misleading to state that one should be careful with using "primary" sources. Instead, one should take care with the correct use of any source. If you (artificially!) categorize sources, there are different risks in any category. Harald88 11:19, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Discussion about version #5

It seems that thus far, versions #1 and #5 are getting the most attention. I don't think anything in #1 is controversial, so I'm not commenting on that, but I wanted to address the controversial aspects of #5 and suggest some possible changes that would move us toward consensus and actually reflecting Misplaced Pages practice, should we choose to base a consensus draft on #5 rather than #1.

The introduction to #5 is great.
I have no fundamental problem with saying that it is "easy to misuse" primary sources. I happen to think it's just as easy to misuse secondary sources, and I think this statement is unnecessary and creepy fluffage, but I don't really care.
The statement that sections relying on primary sources can "only make descriptive claims" is not accurate. Primary sources themselves may make statements that are not merely descriptive (e.g., an editor can write, "according to Plato (a primary source), Socrates was the greatest philosopher who ever lived"). We can cite non-descriptive, conclusory, or analytical statements if they are in the primary source.
The statement that sections relying on primary sources can "make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims" is demonstrably false. Primary sources may themselves contain analytical, synthetic, interpretave, explanatory, or evaluative claims. For example, in the Diary of Anne Frank, a prototypical primary source, she often makes commentary about the world around her, explains things, and evaluates people and situations. The proposed language would restrict us to quote Frank only regarding cold, hard facts. Such a restriction is not a good description of current Misplaced Pages practice.
I would suggest replacing the above language with the following: "an article or section of an article that relies on a primary source should not interpret the facts stated in the source, unless that interpretation is either (1) an obvious and non-controversial consequence of the facts stated in the source or 2) can be attributed to the primary source itself or another reliable source. If a primary source makes its own interpretations of fact, editors cannot expand on that interpretation unless that expanded interpretation is verifiable by reference to a reliable source"
The statement that "articles must be based on reliable third party sources" has no meaning to me. What is a "third party source"? Who are the first and second parties? If this is about WP:BLP and self-published sources, than we should say this. But that has nothing to do with OR, so we should take this statement out. It's adequately covered in WP:RS. Let's avoid creep.
The statement that "Secondary sources draw on primary sources to make generalizations or interpretive, analytical, or synthetic claims" is not exactly true. Secondary sources do not have to make analytical claims. They can just repeat the primary source without comment. I would suggest replacing this with: "Secondary sources repeat the original information found in primary sources, and often make further interpretive, analytical, or synthetic claims."
Why do we need to mention tertiary sources? Does this really add anything? Historiographers don't necessarily use this category. It's unnecessary, so why don't we just get rid of it in the interest of avoiding creep?

COGDEN 18:20, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

If it's a primary source in the sense of being raw data, it won't have analytical claims, and even if it's republished as part of another source, we can still use it as a primary source. If it's a third party source making such claims about the subject, then it's a secondary source as defined. If the subject or an author close to the subject makes such claims about the subject, then we can report the fact that they make the claims as in WP:NPOV, but can't take them as a third party analysis of the subject: it might be worth repeating that option here. WP:V states "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources". Were you thinking of something else? ... dave souza, talk 18:51, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Not as defined in the above drafts. Primary sources are "documents or other sources written by people very close to the situation being written about". That doesn't mean just raw data. People very close to the situation being written about can make analytical and interpretive claims about that situation. Your reference to "third party analysis" seems to indicate you'd like to introduce a first-party/third-party distinction on top of the primary/secondary distinction. Seems a bit too complicated. We'd end up with a 2X2 grid, including: (1) first-party primary source analyses = bad (e.g., Anne Frank analyzing her situation), (2) third-party primary source analyses = good (e.g., Anne Frank recording her father's analysis of their situation), (3) first-party secondary source analyses = good? or is it bad? (Adolf Hitler commenting on Mein Kampf), and (4) third-party secondary source analyses = good (the Ku Klux Klan commenting on Mein Kampf). That sounds way too creepy and complicated. COGDEN 19:37, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Your Plato example is a good example of what's permissable. That is a descriptive claim. You are stating that Plato said "X", not supporting X by reference to Plato. Regarding your Frank example, the same holds true. Noting her observations as her own is one thing, citing facts based on them is a whole other ball of wax. Your suggested replacement text is a wide-open door to abuse of this policy, practically inviting original research. (I can further clarify this point if it does not follow to you.) "Third party", as used throughout policy, adheres to its normal definition of "independent", or a party not directly connected to the topic being discussed. It may be better for clarity to replace such uses with "independent" to make the meaning clear. Could you provide an example of a secondary source that simply regurgitates a primary source without generalization, analysis, synthesis, explanation or other accompanying claims? I agree on tertiary sources, as I've noted in the past. I think it is superfluous to what we are discussing here and even in academia the distinction between secondary and tertiary is very poorly defined (and openly noted as such). Vassyana 05:15, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

That's a very fine distinction between "making analytical claims" and "citing analytical claims" (that in my experience already goes over the heads of a lot of editors), but it doesn't avoid the problem. Let me alter the examples to illustrate the point: The first example is taken directly from the Socrates article, which says, "Socrates refused to escape for several reasons. 1. He believed that such a flight would indicate a fear of death… etc." (describing two other reasons, and citing Plato's Crito). Here's a non-descriptive claim citing Plato as a primary source, which relates Plato's synthetic and analytical conclusions about Socrates' actions. It was Plato who made the analysis and synthesis.

From today's featured article, The Smashing Pumpkins, we have the statement, "During the tour, Iha and Wretzky went through a messy breakup, Chamberlin became addicted to narcotics and alcohol, and Corgan entered a deep depression" (citing a primary source interview with Corgan). A few sentences later, the article states, "The recording environment was very difficult, and the band fought constantly. The contemporary music press portrayed Corgan as a tyrant during the recording sessions" (citing another primary source interview). These are analytical and synthetic claims, but the analyses and syntheses are okay because in addition to being made by the Misplaced Pages editor, they were originally made by the primary source journalist, who is cited. I could probably find an example in practically any featured article where a synthetic, interpretive, or analytical claim is made, and a primary source is cited that contains that claim, but it's not cited in a "merely descriptive" way.

Regarding the "wide-open door to abuse of this policy, practically inviting original research", please explain how the draft would encourage OR abuse. It's just a restatement of WP:V which doesn't even require a source at all if a statement in the article is obvious or non-controversial. We don't need to worry about abusing reliable sources when a reliable source isn't even required.

Examples of secondary sources that simply regurgitate a primary source without generalization, analysis, synthesis, explanation or other accompanying claims: (1) in the 1800s, newspapers used to copy original articles from newspapers in different cities, (2) a reference work, such as a book of engineering tables, (3) a copyright violation such as straighforward plagiarism, (4) legal case reporters, (5) video news clips replayed in a news program, (6) re-compilations and anthologies, etc.

COGDEN 09:46, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

An 1880 newspaper is not a secondary source, but a primary source. A plagiarized source should not be used in WP. Media articles, and video clips of newsreels that do not provide commentary or analysis are primary source (only media that analyzes and synthesizes and comments on primary source material is a secondary source). Compilations and anthologies will be secondary sources only if what they compile are such. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:38, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

An 1880 newspaper is not a secondary source, but a primary source. Fine example of how nobody can agree on what "primary source" means when applied to Misplaced Pages's sourcing policies. WAS 4.250 16:47, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Jossi, if you are contending that an 1880 newspaper is by definition a primary source, I would have to disagree. Oh, I suppose that they could be primary sources for some articles (an article on Yellow Journalism, say) but for many articles I would call such a document an out of date secondary source. Think about it... if your contention is correct, at what point does a Newpaper shift from being Secondary to being Primary?... after one year? Five years? Fifty? WAS has it right... a prime example of how nobody can agree. Blueboar 19:09, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

A newspaper article on the Attack on Pearl Harbor, is a primary source for the article on that subject. That is basic scholarship. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:41, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

That really depends on what you're citing the newspaper article for. If you are citing it for its original (primary) information, it's a primary source. If you're citing it for its repetition of news reports and documents published in other places, it's a secondary source. COGDEN 18:51, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Even based on the terms of the definitions on #5, these things and people are not primary sources because they are not "very close" to the situation being written about. They are removed by one step, the step of quotation or incorporation by a separate, distinct author who is not at all close to the original situation. COGDEN 22:34, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I incorporated my comments above into a new compromise version #6, which hopefully should be less controversial than #5, and maybe more likely to lead to a consensus draft. COGDEN 18:06, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

drop the inane primary/secondary/tertiary source stuff (in #5) and you have my vote. :) As I see it, that is the crux of why this NOR discussion is going nowhere. -- Fullstop 22:22, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Conversion and WP:SYNTH.

I have a question about conversion and WP:SYNTH. Suppose that source X says "John was a Jew when he married Tracy at age 25". Then source Y says "John converted to Christianity at age 37".

Using the above can we say "John converted from Judaism to Christianity at age 37"? Can we list John in List_of_notable_people_who_converted_to_Christianity#From_Judaism?Bless sins 20:06, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

No. He could have been agnostic or atheist or something else at age 36. WAS 4.250 20:25, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Another example

Here is another example. Suppose source X says "John was a Jew at age 17". Then source Y says "John was a Christian at age 37". But no source says both things at once.

Can this be used to put forth the position that John converted from Judaism?

Can this be used to put forth the position that John converted to Christianity?

Bless sins 01:59, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

"Jew" and "Christian" can both be used to mean ethnicity rather than religion; so those quotes alone can not be used to source either of those claims. Further, one can claim allegiance to more than one religion for social, political or family reasons regardless of whether the religions are logically compatible or not. If one source talked about John no longer practicing one religion and another source talked about John thereafter taking up the practice of another religion then you can use both sources to claim that John converted from one religion to the other; although "convert" might be too strong a word if the reason for the change was other than a belief change (maybe just moved to a new community and then simply acted like the locals). WAS 4.250 18:41, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Given the very large time gap, if that's the only data you have, it's hard to say what happened without speculation. For all you know, John may have tried paganism for a while. And with only two sources available, one of them might simply be wrong.

If I were writing the article, and these were the only sourced facts about John's religion, I might wonder about notability. If no source exists that explains how he went from being a Jew at 17 to a Christian at 37, perhaps it really isn't that important. Or perhaps it's important, but the facts just aren't known. If it's impossible to write about it without making huge assumptions, then the issue might not belong in an encyclopedia at all. Marc Shepherd 18:45, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Another example

Misplaced Pages:When to cite says that "it is not necessary to cite a source in describing events or other details" when writing about the plot of a movie or book because "it should be obvious to potential readers that the subject of the article is the source of the information." What if, for example, a movie is adapted from a book and the book's story takes place during the 1950's and the movie takes place during the 1990's. Would it be ok to state in a "differences between the book and its film adaptation" section that the two don't take place during the same time period? Or would there need to be a source explictly mentioning that difference? Ospinad 17:35, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

In the first instance, use common sense: if it is obvious and uncontroversial then it should not be a problem simply to record the settings. Many book and film adaptations have this and I wouldn't rate it as "research" to make an obvious observation. What you should not do is draw inferences from that, e.g. don't say "The film was refreshed by the use of an anachronistic setting." just observe that they were set in different periods. Spenny 18:32, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. I only ask this because of a discussion I am having here about a section in the The Last Mimzy article about the differences between the film and the short story that it is based on. The person that I am debating with says that any comparison between the two would qualify as WP:SYN and I'm saying that it doesn't unless you are drawing conclusions or making assumptions that you aren't getting directly from the plots. Am I overreacting or is he not understanding the policy correctly? I wish I didn't have to be the only person arguing against him. Ospinad 14:22, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Section Titles are Original Research?

Lately, a new line of logic has cropped up on WP:SPOILER. The guideline basically says that any section titled "Plot", "Plot summery", "Synopsis" or similar is assumed to contain spoilers and therefore needs no spoiler disclaimer. However, a small group of editors are now using the logic that because section titles are not "verifiable" through reliable source and are immune from said policy, they constitute original research and editors cannot makes assumptions on them (see WT:SPOILER#Removal of "spoilers implied by section title"). This has resulted in an edit war over that particular section of the WP:SPOILER guideline. --Farix (Talk) 15:50, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Section titles can contain OR. Take for example, a section entitled: "Evidence the X is true", followed by a discussion based upon primary sources. In this case, the title could well constitute a synthetic conclusion. However, I think that in your case NOR is being misapplied. Blueboar 16:32, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

In the example of "Evidence the X is true", it appears that the whole section, and not the section title, would fall afoul of the NOR policy. --Farix (Talk) 18:28, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

A 'small group of editors'? There's just one.--Nydas 18:39, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

This is querrelous rules-lawyering at its worst. Of course we can make assumptions about section headers. We can't write an encyclopedia without making certain assumptions about what people will expect to find in a given section. It is not original research to suggest that words have meaning, and will convey their meaning to their audience. Christ. Don't be stupid. Phil Sandifer 22:29, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

The only way an editor can prove they are not performing original research is to provide a citation. To suggest that unsourced headings are reliable completely ignores the policy on verifiability. The criteria for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth. Editors do not count as reliable sources, so headings that do not provide a citation that are written by editors also do not count as a reliable source. You can assume anything you want on Misplaced Pages, but it's wrong to recommend that readers should assume unsourced material is reliable. User:Phil Sandifer, please be civil. I could edit ==Section Titles are Original Research?== to say ==Phil Sandifer assumes unsourced material is true== and that would be true, but unsourced. The mere presence of equal signs before and after text is not an indication of accuracy. --Pixelface 03:34, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Section headings can be OR, and they should not be OR, but they almost never are, and it's hard to make them so. If a heading is OR, then that probably means the whole section is OR, and should be deleted. Controversies like these are one reason why we need a more coherent statement of the policy. It is permissible to make obvious or non-controversial inferences from the sources. That isn't OR, and it's permissible in headings. COGDEN 23:20, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

No amount of clarifying policies will stop a rules lawyer hell-bent on getting his or her way, which is what this argument stems from. Phil Sandifer 02:06, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

If you think certain content on Misplaced Pages is exempt from the policy on verifiability, that's your right. But recommending to users that headings are inherently reliable is baseless. --Pixelface 03:34, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps a specific example might help explain how it can be possible: Bans on ritual slaughter#Trends. I didn't see any sources for the proposition that the set of events and arguments described constitute a trend or trends. --Shirahadasha 03:46, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

True... and I have changed the section titling. It wasn't a case of OR, however, just a bad choice of words. Blueboar 12:25, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

What's the largest source-related statement for which there is a consensus?

The recent discussion about drafts 1-6 has been productive, in that new ideas have been introduced, and there have been some efforts to compromise. However, I don't think we can adopt any of these choices at this point as a whole. But maybe we can move forward incrementally. We don't have to explain the whole policy in one big bite. We can start with a general introduction, then add more detail as it finds consensus. From the discussion above, I'm pretty sure that at least the following language represents a consensus:

In short, the policy of "No original research" requires that Misplaced Pages users stick to the sources.

This language has been included in all the proposals, and I don't see anybody disputing this language. If anyone finds any fault with it, let me know; otherwise, I'll plan to put it into the policy and we can concentrate on the next steps for adding incrementally more detail. COGDEN 21:31, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I like the language... and think it should be in the policy... but I would want to know how and where it will go before I fully agree. Are you thinking that it would replace something currently in the policy (in which case, what should it replace?), are you thinking that it would be added on to a paragraph currently in the policy (in which case, where do you think it should be added?), or are you thinking that it should go in its own little sub-section? The devil is often in the details :>). Blueboar 21:39, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Please don't. Before you make any such changes, please explain where this would go and if it replaces or dilutes anything in the current formulation. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:10, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

This will go in place of the old "PSTS" section. Then we'll build from there. COGDEN 18:50, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

In view of the likelihood that certain people will insist on reverting anything, even consensus language, and replace it with non-consensus language, I just thought of another alternative: we can divide the PSTS section into two parts: a consensus part, and a non-consensus part. The consensus part would include the above language. The non-consensus part would material such as the what is currently on the page (with a tag noting that the language has not achieved consensus). Gradually, we could shrink the non-consensus section, and grow the consensus section. COGDEN 19:04, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Your persistent enthusiasm for "shrinking" the present consensus version is noted, but any replacement for PSTS has to be clearly demonstrated to be fully equivalent in effect, and a translation kept in place for users returning to this policy who find it changed from what they're using properly and effectively. ... dave souza, talk 19:46, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

There's no "shrinking" involved here. I'm trying to expand the consensus language. Currently, there is no consensus language in the policy page concerning the use of sources. We need at least some. I don't quite understand why you think that the language in the current draft (as revised added in September, I believe, after an edit war) represents a Misplaced Pages consensus. You've been following this page close enough to know better than that. What I'm proposing is to start with some consensus language, then we can build on that. COGDEN 00:30, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

(Outdent) This language is not terribly distinct from the current version, if a bit more clear. The currently policy reads (here):

“

”

I would recommend replacing it with:

“

Research that consists of collecting and organizing material from existing sources within the provisions of this and other content policies is encouraged: this is "source-based research," and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. However, care should be taken to not "go beyond" what is expressed in the sources, use them in ways inconsistent with the intent of the source nor use the information out of context. In short, stick to the sources.

”

This is basically the same as COGDEN's language above, with an additional note about using information out of context and a shorter concluding statement. This is relatively simple change that seems to have a solid consensus. Thoughts? Vassyana 22:46, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Looks good. I don't think anybody disputes anything in this paragraph. We can go in a number of directions based on this language, including toward a primary-secondary-type historiographic model (if we can reach consensus on something), or something simpler, or whatever. Everybody should be happy with this, even though it doesn't include all the bells and whistles yet. COGDEN 00:25, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Primary/secondary distinction

I think that in practice there can be no absolute (not relative) definition of a primary source, since the term "primary source" is used of accounts that are not those of eyewitnesses. Thucydides' history of the Peloponnesian War is considered a primary source for information on that war, though he was not an eyewitness of most of the events he describes and obviously drew on sources for what he wrote. His account is primary only in relation to accounts that are based on his.

In that case, Misplaced Pages rules on the use of sources should, I think, be exactly the same whether the sources are primary (in relation to one or more others) or secondary (in relation to one or more others).

The only distinction might be that the secondary character of a source should be noted whenever its primary source or sources can be consulted.

If these remarks are found irrelevant to the above discussion, please treat them as an aside. Perhaps indeed they have already been made in more appropriate form. Lima 04:44, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I thought I had also put here a reference to an interesting International Herald Tribune article about the way secondary sources sometimes copy each other without checking the facts. I cannot find it now. Lima 09:30, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I think you're exactly right. However, some editors here feel very strongly that we should use the terms "primary" and "secondary" in the policy description, and they want to say something different about each. So we're trying to work out some kind of compromise. COGDEN 18:53, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Where's the consensus?

I don't mean to butt in to what is obviously a long and very detailed discussion, and I did read nearly the entire discussion, but... where is the consensus? The one thing I do like about Misplaced Pages is that a consensus among editors is like a steering column of a car, but in this entire discussion about sources what seems to be missing is any mention of consensus among sources. Just a thought. Metrax 06:32, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

That is exactly the problem... there isn't a consensus. There is no consenus among editors, and no consensus among sources (or to be more accurate, although there will be consensus among sources in a given field of study, there is no consensus between fields of study.) Blueboar 14:27, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Another debate over the use of PS

I am currently involved in a debate at Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Robert Spencer over when it is appropriate to quote and cite a primary source. Leaving aside the issues over whether Mr. Spencer is reliable or not on the subject of Islam, or under what circumstances he might or might not be reliable... the broader question is whether one can include a direct quote from an author's work, with full text attribution, and cite to that work. An editor has said that we can not do so, as that would be using a primary source and thus constitute OR. I disagree. I am contending that simply quoting a work (being very careful to keep what the source says in proper context) and citing to it is not OR. To my way of thinking, if one is adding a statement of opinion (with text attribution along the lines of: According to Robert Spencer, "blah blah blah") to an article, it is preferable to quote what the primary source says directly, and to cite it. Note that I am not talking about interpreting or analyzing what the primary source says in any way shape or form. I am simply talking about quoting the source. So which is right? Is quoting a primary source OR? Blueboar 16:25, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Where is he quoted? If the subject of the article where he is quoted is either Spencer, or one of his books, then it would be primary source. If the subject of the article where he is quoted is Islam or something else, then it is a secondary source. If the subject is about him or his books, then I think a secondary source is needed to verify the a) notability of the quote and/or b) to what broader context the quote is interpreted. Especially with controversial subjects, the secondary sources are absolutely key to a) or b). If a) and b) are either incontrovertible (not often the case in situations where they're most often used at WP for controversial subjects), or they are used 'directly in conjunction with how they are used in secondary sources, (ie no alternative interpretation, no new argument made with it, no innuendos implicit from cherry picked new quotes, etc) then it is fine to quote primary source. The trouble with how quotes from primary sources are often used at WP is that editors are using them for their own arguments and emphasis, ie original research, with exactly those tricks--cherry picking quotes to make new arguments or "show evidence" of claims in alternative ways that aren't found in otherwise WP qualified secondary sources.Professor marginalia 17:12, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, the issue essentially relates to using him as a source in articles on Islam (he is a notable, but definitely biased critic). The aguments against using him run the gammit from omitting him as "exstremist" to claiming that quoting what he says constitutes OR (as they are his own views, and thus primary). If you would be so kind as to pop over to the RS noticeboard, read the section and add your comments... it will help get us off the primary/secondary sidetrack and back onto the issue of under what circumstances he might and might not be reliable (which is what should be discussed there). Thanks. Blueboar 17:43, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) As I said on that page, the definition of a PS is 'documents or people very close to the subject under discussion', and thus Spencer qualifies as a PS in subjects to do with his life, work, or the modern political criticism of Islam, in which he is a central figure. ('very close'.) I also said that naturally quotes from a man who writes a blog, a paper a week, and a book a year are problematic if they are not kept in context, and unless they can be said to represent the main thrust of his argument as determined by reliable sources that are surveying the subject in general. To repeat: Spencer is not a scholar of Spencer; he is not a scholar specializing in studying the criticism. Spencer is a student of Islam, and a critic of Islam; there's a difference. He is permissible as a secondary source on Islam in general (if perhaps a little unreliable); but is a primary source, by definition, on articles dealing with his books or his work (criticism of Islam.) I completely agree that quotes are cherry-picked in order to emphasize perhaps minor claims, or those that the author would not, in context, support, and thus we need to, especially in controversial subjects, use sources that can ensure that that does not happen. Relata refero 18:05, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

How can you say he is a secondary source on Islam in general, but a primary source when it comes to criticizing Islam?... he is a critic of Islam... that is what makes him notable. Your concept that he is a primary source on "his work (criticism of Islam)" is rediculous. By your reasoning you could not use a noted particle physisist as a source in an article on particle physics because that is his "work (particle physics)". You are completely misunderstanding what PSTS is trying to say.

Could someone misuse a quote from Spencer in a way that constitutes OR?... yes. You can misuse any source. But you can not simply say "It's a primary source, and thus you can not use it". WP:PSTS allows for careful and appropriate use of primary sources. If all you are doing is stating Spencer's view on something to do with Islam, without going further... as long as all you do is say: "According to Robert Spencer, 'Islam is blah blah blah'<citation to where Spencer says this>" you are not in the realm of OR. Blueboar 18:22, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

To take your particle physics example, excepting the rather small probability that the physicist is himself a fundamental particle and thus the subject of the article, the question does not arise. In Criticism of Islam, Spencer is himself the subject of the article. He does not write about the criticism of Islam! He writes about Islam itself, if critically. Do you now see the distinction? Relata refero 19:26, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I would argue that placing this dispute in the realm of primary or secondary sources is incorrect. The use of that source is better assessed in the context of WP:NPOV#Undue weight and NPOV in general, as well as WP:SPS, notability, significance of the viewpoint, etc. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:16, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Agree that this is primarily a NPOV issue, in that the intention seems to be to cite Spencer as a primary source of a notable minority view rather than as a reliable secondary source on the subject. Thus his statements or a summary of his statements can be cited as the fact that he's presented this view, and it should be set in the context of the majority view of specialists in the subject. Since it's a notable minority view, it should be possible to find secondary (or third party) reliable sources commenting on his view from the mainstream position to set the context. .. dave souza, talk 19:35, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Jossi, could you please pop over to the WP:RS/noticeboard and explain the intent of PSTS as it would relate to this issue. They are now saying that Spencer is a secondary source on Islam, and he somehow is a primary source when it comes to criticising Islam... which to me makes no sense whatsoever (they seem to be saying that he secondary when making positive or neutral comments, but suddenly primary when making negative comments.) I whole heartedly agree that this is a NPOV issue more than anything else. This really started because there was a question over whether he was "extremist" source and thus unreliable (the answer came back mixed, with some people saying that he was, and others countering that he is surely biased, but not extremist). When I commented that, given his know POV, it would probably be best to attribute his views and phraise things as statements of opinions and not as statementa of fact, people jumped all over me and objected on PSTS grounds. This seems to me to be a classic case of misinterpreting PSTS in order to object to inclusion of controvercial material. As a respected editor on most of our policy pages, your views would be appreciated. Blueboar 21:39, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Jossi's welcome to chime in, but your interpretation is quite off-base. I, who think he's extremist, sure, jumped all over your misapplication of PSTS which is not specific to this case. In terms of NPOV, as I said several times, he is a very notable critic of Islam, and his work is a major part of the subject of Criticism of Islam articles, so it would be ridiculous to leave a discussion of his work out. (Which is why I am puzzled as to how this means that the argument would lead to the exclusion of controversial material.) Furthermore, several users have pointed out that this argument is not limited to critics, but to other similar situations. Consider the fact that in an article on the decline and fall of the Roman Empire, we could quote Gibbon, but in an article on Writing About the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, we should quote those who study Gibbon.

Hence, while there's a WP:NPOV issue in Islam articles, sure, where I would prefer that large chunks not be devoted to Spencer (or Hitchens, or Praveen Togadia) any more than large chunks of any mainstream philosophical or religious articles are devoted to major popular critics, but it's not an NPOV issue in the related criticism articles. There it's a PSTS and NOR issue. Relata refero 05:17, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Ralata, let me see if I understand what you are saying... are you saying that it is fine (within reason and not giving undue weight) to cite Spencer in our current articles: Islam and Criticism of Islam... but not in an article called, for example: Historical criticism of Islam? Blueboar 12:55, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Ralata refero, you're working with an interpretation of PSTS that I have not seen any other editor hold. Spencer is a secondary source, except in articles about himself and (perhaps) the specific school of thought to which he belongs. I do not see how it is at all a concern of PSTS and NOR. Could you perhaps explain your rationale more clearly? Vassyana 22:35, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Vassyana, you have indeed fairly precisely stated what I am saying. To continue the example, Spencer is a primary source in articles about himself, or articles about the criticism and critics of Islam. As he he does not discuss the criticism of Islam, instead he criticizes Islam, he is a secondary source for religion-related articles, but a primary source in the narrow subset of articles that are about him, his work or his views.(I see this as a fairly straightforward implication of our current policy. Perhaps I expressed myself poorly, becuase I think that this is how many people handle PSTS. If not, it needs to be rewritten.)

Blueboar, I think its fine to cite Spencer in an Islam article (leaving out concerns of undue weight.) THe Criticism of Islam article should have sections about Spencer others of his school of thought - Daniel Pipes is the only name I can think of off-hand - but should, rather than featuring wikipedians' summaries of what they believe are his main arguments, refer to and cite what reliable sources have said are his main arguments. (So, you see, I do not believe in 'excising' criticism.)Relata refero 16:32, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

OK, I get what you are saying now. I definitely disagree - In an article such as Criticism of Islam, I think we can and probably should refer to and cite Spencer directly. He is a notable critic of Islam and, as such, what he says is directly responsive to the topic of the article. We don't have to like or agree with what he says, but we should make note of it. It is not original research to do so. Blueboar 18:36, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Could you respond to the specific points I have made? He is not "responsive to the topic of the article" (which is a little unclear). He has never, to my knowledge, written a book or a paper discussing individuals or methods of criticizing Islam. He has written books on Islam that are criticial. Do we agree on that much? If we do, all else seems to follow.

"We don't have to like or agree with what he says, but we should make note of it." Well yes, as I have already said twice, the article must make note of his views. But it isn't up to individual WP editors to pick and choose; we need reliable secondary sources to make that determination for us. Relata refero 20:24, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

When can we unprotect?

Discussion has died down here a bit on this page. At some point, we need to unprotect the page and replace the presently-controversial PSTS section with some consensus language. Is everybody willing to suppress their natural inclination to revert while we start out with something clearly non-controversial that we can build on? If anybody is wholly unwilling to allow consensus language to emerge, I'd consider that to be an action against the best interests of Misplaced Pages, and if that's the case, perhaps the best way to remedy the situation would be to refer the matter to the arbitration committee. COGDEN 20:56, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Unprotection is a good idea. No page should be on a long-term lock-down, particularly policies. However, being in a hurry to replace the language will only result in protection (once again). We need to be cautious and ensure that whatever replaces the section is consensus language. I support unprotecting this page if people will abide by civil and rational discourage and avoid editing controversial portions until clear consensus emerges. Trying to push through a change without establishing consensus is disruptive and this policy page has seen quite enough of that. Vassyana 22:33, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

One of the few virtues of protection is that it can bring these discussions onto the talk page - removing the problems of reversion and allowing us to propose successively-better versions. Jacob Haller 00:29, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree, and think it's too early for unprotection. I don't sufficent consensus for the sort of change cogden wants to make; I certainly don't support it. FeloniousMonk 04:39, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I think there is a problem with the way protection has been managed and there should be a greater enthusiasm to unprotect. I don't think that there is necessarily consensus for the change (that is not to say that an individual has the right of veto) but it is stopping a return to normal processes. I would also point out that the protection has little to do with the recent discussions. Last time around it was a spat over a tag and generally the protection has been supported as being related to not gaining a consensus on the PSTS debate, where there has not been an attempt to force a major change in place. The presumption of bad faith when every attempt has been made to follow processes - including magical unwritten ones that are supposed to be acquired by some unknown process - is unhelpful.

In this case, it could be quite reasonable for COGDEN to place his change in the main page with the expectation that it gets reverted or altered - though I am less than happy about the blind reversion and blocking that has been going on here under the guise of the Greater Good. The problem only comes with how people react. If they behave appropriately, there should not be a problem. Arguably this has been blocked for a month over a dispute tag, which has already been pointed out to be an ironic state of affairs.

Let's move on. After all, the worst that happens is a bit of an edit war - nobody dies. Spenny 10:59, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

My observation is that there is a much broader and fundamentally stable consensus for the basic principle of PSTS than would be apparent merely by reviewing the recent discussions on the talk page. I would speculate that unprotection would serve to reveal this, given some time. But given that the "metapolicy" matter of protection of policy pages is not well discussed and not settled at this stage of the wiki's development, I have no preference about the protection issue. My own position on the substantive issue is as I said before, which is that whatever difficulties there may be with PSTS in arguing whether certain sources may be precisely fit into one of these categories (primary, secondary or tertiary), the basic distinction is key in much of the appllcation of WP:NOR throughout the wiki, and many thousands have come to rely on it. I honestly don't see an adequate warrant to be changing it at this stage. ... Kenosis 12:04, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Do you really believe that there is a consensus for the primar-secondary-tertiary model in the NOR page? Honestly, now. COGDEN 20:48, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

As I said weeks ago, yes, I do think there's a general wiki-wide consensus for it that hasn't changed as a result of the discussion among a dozen or so participants here (with a few additional passersby along the way). But ultimately the way to find out is to unprotect it and see what the longer term response is. Substantively, as I also said in earlier discussion, PSTS is important as a policy, because it directs us to avoid cherrypicking primary sources in those many instances where there are plenty of secondary and tertiary sources to draw upon. We see this issue come up repeatedly in scientific articles, philosophy articles, history articles and religious articles. If it were to be moved to WP:VER I'd have no objection, or even WP:NPOV (because it comes up in the context of negotiating NPOV in the many situations where the sources contradict each other in ways that cannot readily be addressed by stating "Source A says X, and Source B says Y")) -- but such an approach would require discussion on the other relevant talk page too, and also would require a sufficiently strong consensus to do so. Nor would I disagree with putting PSTS on a separate policy page that allocates the principle as needed among the three core content policies, though this too does not appear to me to have consensus at present. ... Kenosis 23:45, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Okay. Maybe that's an opening for consensus. I at least, for one, have no objection to having a policy page somewhere that makes distinctions between primary, secondary, and (if someone really thinks it adds something meaningful), tertiary sources. I suspect that probably some kind of consensus on that could emerge. But the present expression doesn't have consensus, mainly because it's not precise enough. It currently has too many loopholes. Peer reviewed journal articles, for one, should never be discouraged. They should be encouraged, and I know there's no consensus for discouraging them.

Here's what I would suggest: Let's take the present language in the PTST section, move it to its own article (without changes), tag it as a policy page, replace it in the NOR article with consensus language like has been suggested, and go from there. (Possibly even have a link to it.) This would result in no net change, but might allow this page to come out of protection and remove the controversy. This might not solve all the issues, but at least it would be a step in that direction. COGDEN 00:39, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

That would be a step in the wrong direction as it will clearly dilute this fundamental policy. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:56, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

(chuckling, respectfully) Jossi, you're so protective of exact current form of the page. Don't you think it might be a good idea to isolate the contentious part so that the rest of the page can be free of dispute? I haven't seen that yet for a policy page but it often works to settle long disputes in the main space. Having a separate PSTS policy page could actually make PSTS more important, not less, as other pages like WP:V and WP:RS share credit for it.Wikidemo 01:22, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

That option has been already discussed, bur never followed up. There is nothing to stop anyone from starting a new page in which this can be explored by interested editors. By the way, I am not saying that the current wording is perfect, and it is not my intention to "protect it". Just that if some editors want to explore alternatives, they should so it without impinging on current policy. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:55, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

How would you feel about creating a new PSTS page (or perhaps a more neutral title, like "Sources and Original Research") where we move the PSTS material, then transclude it verbatim into the section where it now sits? That way this page would not change one bit initially. People can debate, revert, protect, whatever, to their heart's content on the new page and hopefully calm things down here enough to unprotect this page. If you think that's a good idea I'll propose it again.Wikidemo 02:18, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Protection policy may not be "settled" at this point in time but there is an existing policy that advocates of a position are not to protect (because doing so is obviously a ploy to avoid the "three revert" rule.) That policy has been violated during this discussion. May I suggest that no such violation occur again in the future (that is, advocates of a position that creates a rule they want to wield actually follow a pertinent rule while pushing what they advocate)? --Minasbeede 13:52, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Stability is particularly important for policies that all editors have to rely on, and don't expect to have to check every ten minutes to see what's changed. Proponents of changes have evidently failed to gain consensus for these changes on the talk page, and now appear to be proposing to edit war. On any article the correct course is to deal with issues on the talk page or take it to a wider forum, not start disrupting the process by playing with 3RR. Once again, proposals are needed that fully match the effectiveness of the current policy, and provide a clear explanation for editors used to the PSTS description. .. dave souza, talk 14:26, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

The policy as currently protected contains non-consensus claims about use of sources. There does not need to be a consensus to remove non-consensus claims. There needs to be a consensus to include claims in the first place. There has never been a consensus on what "primary source" means in the context of Misplaced Pages policy. Never. And because there is no consensus for even that, claims about "primary sources" in this policy lead to problems rather than solutions. There is consensus that "sources too close to a situation may have bias or other issues and should be used carefully with regard to that concern." There is also consensus that "sources from non-experts often have slight errors arising from misunderstanding technical details." Using "primary source" in the first case and "secondary source" in the second case is not helpful. WAS 4.250 15:37, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't wish to reenter the debate. My request was a simple one: advocates of any position in this discussion who are also administrators not lock the page: Misplaced Pages policy forbids them to do so. It's a simple request: honor that policy. --Minasbeede 16:01, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I fail to understand the logic for unprotecting: the proposed "clarification" language can best be worked out here, even with the page being locked. That some seem to be champing at the bit to unlock the page, while either failing to realise or acknowledge that the discussion must take place here, seem to me to bode ill. Jim62sch 20:25, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

The discussion here has petered out. Very few of us seem to be interested in advancing the cause of consensus. Besides, I think we have consensus language already. Nobody has disputed the truth of User:Vassyana's language, which is:

"Research that consists of collecting and organizing material from existing sources within the provisions of this and other content policies is encouraged: this is "source-based research," and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. However, care should be taken to not "go beyond" what is expressed in the sources, use them in ways inconsistent with the intent of the source nor use the information out of context. In short, stick to the sources."

If someone can find fault with this language, please speak up. Otherwise, there is no reason not to put it on the page and see if it sticks. Anyone who reverts will have to justify that reversion by actually commenting on the substance of the language, which moves us toward consensus. I think we've spent enough time seeking ways to show why consensus does not exist: let's try building consensus this time. COGDEN 20:48, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

That reads like a heavy handed threat. Reaching consensus is a two way street, and unprotection is premature since your proposal is not exactly getting a welcome reception. As far finding fault with your proposed change, I certainly can: It ignores the distinction between primary, secondary, and tertiary sources and the qualitative differences often found therein. These are common distinctions and categories that any college student is expected to know and understand. Any change of the policy that replaces the current part describing primary, secondary, and tertiary sources with one that places all sources at the same level undermine this policy, not supports it. Odd nature 20:57, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

That it is bare-bones (at present), and does not include certain controversial items, is not a legitimate criticism. You can't negate consensus language by arguing it doesn't include your own controversial add-ons. If you agree with the above language, you are part of the consensus. If not, then point out something that is false or could be expressed better. Absent this, I don't treat the above comment as a good faith suggestion that would help us find common ground and build consensus. COGDEN 21:03, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Would the Arbitration Committee hear this?

Just a hypothetical here, since I still believe we can build consensus through negotiation. However, supposing we can't, that after these three months of discussion and eight-some-odd archive pages, there are still well-meaning editors who just can't bring themselves to work toward consensus and will always revert any moves we make in that direction, would it be appropriate to bring this issue before the Arbitration Committee? I don't know of any instance where it has resolved an issue like this, but there is no reason why it's not within their jurisdiction. We've tried negotiation, we've tried mediation, we've requested comments. Do you think the Arbcom would hear this issue, and is it worth a request? COGDEN 21:00, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Arbcom's job is to hear cases of conduct such as is being displayed on this page by people acting as owners of the page. Whether arbcom will take the case, or taking it, act on evidence is another question. Typically, they act in whatever way they think best helps wikipedia regardless of rules and evidence. So in addition to evidence of mis-conduct, a convincing case for what is best for wikipedia would be needed. WAS 4.250 21:53, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

ArbCom does not get involved in policy making. If there is no consensus for changes to established policy, it means that there is no consensus and the status quo remains. If there are disputes about the status quo being such, same applies. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:53, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

The fact that the page has been protected for so long indicates that there is not consensus for the policy as currently expressed. I think it would be appropriate to take a case to ArbCom to set reasonable ground rules for resuming editing without taking specific action for past conduct, but with the threat of immediate action for future misconduct. The extended protection of this critical policy page is a disgrace, and needs to end as soon as possible. Dhaluza 01:00, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. The fact that a few editors disagree does not mean that there is no consensus for the policy as expressed. In any case, you can try to file an ArbCom case, but it would be unlikely it will be heard. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:15, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Don't bother ArbCom. Insist that existing rules (in particular the rule that forbids those with a position to lock a page) be strictly observed. That would mean that those with a position could not slap a lock on a policy page whenever they saw a threat to some part of the policy they favor. The rule is clear: if they are partisans in a debate they are not to lock a page. Period. That should be particularly stringently enforced for policy pages as it is ludicrous for a group of editors to on the one hand insist that their pet wording be part of some policy (e.g., NOR) while they blatantly violate an even more important policy (showing their actual disregard for policy, other than as a tool to suit their agendas/desires.)

Review the Misplaced Pages pages about consensus (this is for personal edification) and notice how one example of improper behavior is for there to be continued opposition to a particular wording, with the opposition being expressed by a changing set of editors. Misplaced Pages recognizes that as prima facie evidence of an "ownership" problem or offense. Look over the history of the page (don't neglect to review the protection history) and decide, for yourself, if the history of WP:NOR is one that shows full active compliance with the rules and spirit of Misplaced Pages or if it shows offenses of the type already recognized and described in the policy-related pages.

I'm an outsider. I can watch Misplaced Pages self-destruct (or be destroyed from within) in a rather detached way. "Destroyed from within" has to mean "by administrators or some group of administrators." Editing, even bad or foolish editing, is not destructive of Misplaced Pages: Misplaced Pages is designed to prevent destruction from that direction - that's one if its primary strenths. Misplaced Pages is open to all to edit, Misplaced Pages explicitly advocates IAR, Misplaced Pages admonishes editors to "Be bold." The fundamental nature of Misplaced Pages is largely evident in and included in those three things. Those three things can be first neutered and then destroyed - the attempt is underway. --Minasbeede 03:54, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

You are missing a very important point and distinction: this is not an article, but an official policy page. Yes, IAR applies here, and there is good reason to protecting of a core policy of the project. As for being bold, be that in articles, but not on policy pages. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:23, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Also, WP:OWN is a good thing in policy pages. Yes, I monitor policy pages as part of my duties as a ccommitted Wikipeedian (both as an editor and as an admin), to ensure that policy pages remain as a reflection of established practices, and to ensure that changes are discussed and agreed upon. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:26, 25 October 2007 (UTC)