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Legal status in weapons

There is no specific treaty ban on the use of DU projectiles.

Has anyone proposed one? LossIsNotMore 16:48, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Almost certainly bans have been proposed. But since the main users of DU are France, US, and UK, all three of which are veto powers, they can obstruct any treaty from getting off the drawing board. Unless you can find a court which can rule against this new weapon under an earlier treaty (there are many candidates), the legal status will continue to be permissive. Clearly, because of the their direct influence on the lack of a treaty, any appeal by the US or UK as to the legality of these weapons is utterly specious.Goatchurch 19:20, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

How typical of a liberal not to mention Russia.

ICBUW has drawn up a Draft Treaty for a ban on uranium weapons (http://www.bandepleteduranium.org/en/i/13.html) - it is similar in form to the ICBL landmine treaty and will no doubt resemble the end result of the current Oslo process on cluster munitions. We are a few years behind the CMC but lobbying hard around the world. We've recently had our first domestic ban in Belgium - they are always the first with indiscriminate weapons:

On March the 7th, 2007, the Belgian Chamber Commission on National Defence voted unanimously in favour of banning the use of depleted uranium "inert ammunitions and armour plates on Belgian territory." Although Belgium isn’t a user of DU, it is the home of NATO and regularly has US DU shipments travelling through its port of Antwerp. (http://www.bandepleteduranium.org/en/a/118.html)

Please can you update the page accordingly - I'm not a regular contributor.ICBUW 15:57, 4 April 2007 (UTC)ICBUW

What about lead, tungsten, mercury? If one is going to ban DU on the basis of it being "toxic" or poisonous, then it would seem this standard would have to be applied universally. Most bullets are made of lead, which is approximately as toxic as depleted uranium, and tungsten can be harmful to the environment and human health as well. Mercury is used in electronic tilt switches, rectifiers and other materials. Surely this would be banned as well, even in tiny amounts?

I am curious to understand how one can justify the banning of banning of depleted uranium without also banning almost all materials that are somewhat toxic. The only material suitable for projectiles that is 100% nontoxic is bismuth, but it is much softer, more expensive and has less desirable characteristics.drbuzz0 26 July 2007

Lead is in most ways more toxic than DU. Bismuth is radioactive, but with an incredibly long halflife. So I guess if you make bullets out of Bismuth, people are then going to object that battlefields will then remain radioactive for even longer (;-> than they would with DU, which is sort of true.

The difference is that lead doesn't explode into a shower of sparks and dust, so it is much less likely to be inhaled or ingested. Starcare 18:11, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

True. Lead does often melt on impact, and explode into a shower of molten metal, perhaps inside the victim. And DU is less toxic in other ways, hence its use in protective armour. But the point is that ammunition is designed to kill. The only solution to war is not to have wars. Claiming that war is acceptable is obscene. Trying to make war acceptable is immoral at best, and perhaps even insane. (This is not an attack on you or any other contributor, but a comment on both peace movements and pro-war movements generally, from a former draft resistor in the days of the Vietnam Moratorium.) Andrewa 22:16, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

The question that's been going here for a while is whether inhaling uranium causes birth defects. It seems to me that it does. Lead doesn't have a similar affect off the battlefield. I agree with your comments about preventing war, but giving people more and more powerful weapons doesn't serve that end. Starcare 22:33, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Interesting claim. Birth defects are an emotive topic, but of course they're also a valid concern. Breast shields made of soft lead metal were widely recommended by medical authorities to protect the nipples of nursing mothers in the 1940s, and many infants were poisoned as a result of this fiasco. After that I'd have expected both nursing and expectant mothers to avoid lead, and authorities to be even more anxious to avoid encouraging or allowing exposure for which they might be found liable. So I'm surprised that there's data available to substantiate the claim that lead doesn't have a similar effect off the battlefield.

Are you sure it isn't speculation? Look for statements like lead is not known to have any similar effect in your sources... it's not the same thing as lead is known not to have any similar effect, and the difference is important.

Agree about weapons, but you miss the point. The regulation of weaponry doesn't address the cause of peace either way, it just distracts attention from the real issues of mutual respect and justice. It's the easy way out, and like so many easy ways out, it doesn't work. Andrewa 15:22, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

It's more than a claim, it's what the epidemiologists say (PMID 16124873). Given that wars have been fought with lead for centuries without excess birth defects in soldiers until the advent of chemical weapons, there's no comparison. An arms race, even a conventional one, has little to do with "mutual respect and justice." Starcare 18:41, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

That reference is a study of extant literature, the sort of thing you should find as part of any scientific paper, but here it is the whole study. Its conclusion starts Animal studies firmly support the possibility that DU is a teratogen. Note that word possibility. It means we can't be sure it won't happen. Later they note the evidence supports plausibility, which means we don't know whether or not it's true, but we think we've made it believable. Such studies generate research grants in the current political climate, but it's not obvious what else they achieve. There's little justification for doing any genuine research in such fields. Without excess birth defects... Again, how would we know? Such records weren't even kept in those centuries. Someone is guessing, and then phrasing it in ways that encourage plausibility.

Agree that an arms race does nothing useful. But the debate over DU has had no impact on any arms race. Australia has simply switched to Tungsten penetrators, for example. The difference in price and effectiveness wasn't worth the political flak. These still kill and maime whoever gets in their way, be they General, conscript, or unborn bystander. Some suffer quickly, some slowly, some from known effects, some from unsuspected ones. I can't see any of these as preferable to the others. Even the Generals aren't the real villians. The real villians are the political types without whose personal ambitions very few shots would ever be fired. Andrewa 01:21, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I remember from Army cadet training a film that went Ammunition is designed to kill. It cannot distinguish between friend and foe. If I were in combat, I'd want to be firing the most effective bullets they could give me. Rules of war is an oxymoron to those actually looking down the barrels of the opposing guns. Andrewa 18:04, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

If DU becomes standard, then everyone is going to want an isotope separation plant. Starcare 18:11, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps this is a sarcastic comment? There's no significant advantage in using DU rather than natural Uranium in these weapons. DU is used because it's available as a waste product, which makes it cheaper. But the availability of this market for DU doesn't have a significant bearing on the economics of the enrichment plant. The cost of disposing of DU is insignificant compared to the costs of building and operating the plant, and the value of the enriched stream. Andrewa 22:16, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Most health physicists

"Most experts in health physics consider it unlikely that depleted uranium has any connection with the Gulf War Syndrome if such an illness exists at all.[citation needed"

I am going to delete this until a citation is found. Puddytang 04:50, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

How about this citation, from the Health Physics Society DU Fact Sheet: "A group of Gulf War veterans who have small DU fragments still in their bodies continue to be followed by government scientists to determine whether there will be long-term health effects. As of early 2005, only subtle but clinically insignificant changes in measures of kidney function have been observed. One common observation is a persistent elevation in the amount of uranium measured in the urine more than 10 years after exposure. This reflects the continued presence of DU in wound sites and its ongoing low-level mobilization and absorption to blood.

In summary, some minor health problems have been observed following exposure to DU, but ONLY with high levels of exposure. Exposures to airborne DU or to contaminated soil following military use are not known to cause any observable health or reproductive effects." Obviously the last sentence is the most direct and relevant, but I included more for completeness' sake. The entire document can be found here: HPS DU Fact Sheet.

I'd say the sentence should be put back in the article, especially since my quote agrees with every conversation I've ever had on the topic with any member of the Health Physics Society except one.--Hidesert 18:52, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, Health Physics Society publications are not the same as "most experts in health physics." Secondly, exposures of metallic U(0) from shrapnel, which oxidizes almost entirely in vitro to U(IV) is not toxicologicaly the same as inhalation of U(VI) compounds. I wonder if anyone in the HPS understands that, required as they are to have training in radiation protection but not biochemistry or toxicology. Thirdly, nobody knows what the amount of absorption from combustion product inhalation exposure even is, because nobody has yet measured the amount of particulates smaller than a tenth of a micron, including the amount of uranium oxide gases, produced by combustion, since Carter and Stewart reported that the gases comprised half of the combustion product in 1970. The fact that only one member of the HPS has ever even called for such studies speaks volumes about how much they want to know the answer to the question. Finally, the reproductive toxicity of uranium exposure has been known at least since 1953, is well-documented in more than a dozen peer-reviewed medical journal articles, and there are no peer-reviewed medical or scientific publications which deny or cast any doubt on that fact. Could the reason that all HPS publications deny the reproductive toxicity of uranium exposure be that some of the past and present officials of the HPS are the same people who have certified to the U.S. D.o.D. and other agencies that uranium combustion product exposure is safe?

I will recommend that any non-peer-reviewed publication denying the reproductive toxicity of uranium be removed because of the large number of peer-reviewed publications which claim the opposite, and the fact that there are no peer-reviewed publications which agree. James S. 03:53, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Didn't want to leave this standing unchallenged. The society in question seems to be *the* professional association for this branch of science and the DU sheet referenced above also briefly discusses DU inhalation which is pretty much as bad as breathing in regular uranium. TMLutas 21:32, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

On the contrary, several members of the HPS have specifically told me that their expertise if confined to radiation protection and not toxicology, which is the domain of industrial hygiene. None of the major IH organizations have any standards for uranium inhalation because it is so uncommon. James S. 04:13, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Used in improvised explosives?

Do Iraqi insurgents use abandoned DU slugs in their improvised explosives? James S. 12:00, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

No doubt some have been DU rounds used in IEDs just as a matter of statistics. After all, they've accidentally used Iraqi chemical weapons rounds so why not DU? TMLutas 21:34, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Health considerations section

I think that the "Health considerations" section needs some rewriting. This section is 1/3 of the article and the reader is left with the feeling that DU doesn't pose any significant threat to health. If this is so, who claims that (as stated in the introduction) possibly "depleted uranium is dangerous to human beings at the low quantities in which it could possibly be ingested from environmental contamination." and why?? I believe that either this section needs to be shortened or (better) to state the evidence which makes some experts believe that DU might be hazardous. 62.1.92.82 21:22, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

DU is hazardous -- nobody disputes that the bullets are designed to be, and that inhaling the fumes is unhealthy. The question is how much, and whether the downside is worth the upside. I think tungsten is more cost-effective. We will eventually reach a point where people know how dangerous it is. It's a shame they haven't tried to figure out how dangerous it is yet. I think in twenty years, people are going to look back and wonder who would even suggest that DU munitions are reasonable weapons. Conventional military power is not as important as it once was.

that edit was signed at the time, don't know what happened to the sig, it will be there in the history somewhere. But in reply, it's also possible that they'll look back and wonder what all the fuss was about. DU seems to be far more dangerous politically than radiologically.

So far as the importance of conventional military power is concerned, that's easily said if you have a strong army. The citizens of Lebanon, having a few decades back been a peaceful and prosperous country that chose unarmed neutrality, now have a tragically different perspective. Andrewa 10:04, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I like this health considerations section. James S. 06:40, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

As a Nuclear Engineer with Military Nuclear experience I can tell you that the hazards associated with Alpha-particle contamination are not due to ingestion but rather inhalation.

Therefore, the introduction should be re-written to show the following:

"while inhalation of alpha-emitting contamination is a proven hazard at any level, it remains debatable whether depleted uranium is dangerous to human beings at the low quantities in which it could possibly be ingested from environmental contamination.

Studies have shown that the impact of depleted uranium projectiles at high velocities can convert up to 70% of the ordinance into a fine particulate, breathable, dust. In addition, due to its pyrophoricity at 650' Centigrade, the uranium metal is converted into a ceramic dust which is highly insolubile, making it much more difficult for the body to remove once internal contamination has occurred."

Reference: http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/DU-Medical-Effects-Mar99.htm Medical Effects of Internal Contamination with Uranium Croatian Medical Journal v.40, n.1, Mar99 Asaf Durakoviæ Department of Nuclear Medicine, Georgetown University School of Medicine, Washington D.C., USA

Fascinating James! So you are a nuclear engineer now! How you get around. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 03:51, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

You don't need to be a nuclear engineer to know that things that emit alpha particles are not that dangerous. The danger from DU is due to being a heavy metal, not because it emits radiation. Jtrainor 17:31, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Inhaled alpha sources are still pretty bad -- when the sources are adjacent to living tissue, they're worse than the same energy of gammas. Starcare 22:00, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

True about the comparison to gamma, but pretty bad compared to what? U-238 has a very long halflife, so there aren't many decays. Comparisons to more active inhaled alpha emitters aren't all that helpful... depending a bit on what you think of the LNTH. Andrewa 02:10, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Everything is relative to exposure of course, but on a per-Becquerel basis, uranium and radon are the worst of the radionuclides to inhale. Clerkbird 22:38, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I also think that this section needs to be changed. Quote from the article: "Depleted uranium is not a significant health hazard unless it is taken into the body." Thats just so totally wrong. Humans do need to breath dont they? So the fact that people breath and that way DU finds its way (a very easy way!) into the body of the person, doesnt count or what? Noone speaks about not yet used bullets and stuff like that, we talk about used bullets, tiny particles of DU in the air in an area where they used those ammunitions. If it wouldnt be dangerous then why do people have to wear an abc-mask at all? Is it cause they know that they could breath in particles of DU? and get lung-cancer and other serious health issues that way? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.163.253.156 (talk) 11:29, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree. There are some things from the James S. health considerations section linked above which are sourced well enough, and I would like to see in the article. ←Ben 16:33, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

* Since the primary health consideration with DU is internal rather than external, this section quite clearly needs to describe some ways in which DU can enter the body. I've added some of this material based on a DoD website. Starkrm please attempt to justify your deletions of this material. Perhaps you believe it belongs in another section - I don't know. But imho simply deleting it is completely unjustified. Dlabtot 19:39, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your statement "When uranium burns it has no magical property that causes it to only be inhaled by members of the military. Civilians are also often exposed." My use of the word military in creating that section referred to the source of the DU.

As far as your comments here - I did not remove the methods in which DU can enter the body. I deleted the portions of your comments that were unrelated to the reference you presented. The statement "To address these health risks..." assumes there is a health risk, which is not presented on the DoD web site. In fact the DoD web site says the opposite in the reference I used. The statement "No similar program exists for civilian victims of depleted uranium exposure." assumes there are "victims" which would also assume a health risk, and a crime, which is not shown by your DoD reference. Also your reference does not even address this issue. I was sticking to the facts of DU. Starkrm 19:53, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Well the Department of Defense does in fact have a program that addresses the health risks of exposure to DU (despite the fact that they deny that risk exists). No amount of semantic hairsplitting will change this reality. Cheers. Dlabtot 01:40, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

They don't "deny" anything. The DoD program is there because people have made the accusation and they are good enough to respond to the concerns, but, study after study has found no link between DU and the health problems some are experiencing. Starkrm 14:41, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

That's an interesting viewpoint. Wrong, but interesting. I look forward to working together with you on the article in the future. Dlabtot 15:03, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

James, I cannot even begin to explain just how funny it is to see you talk to yourself. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 12:06, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

"Depleted Uranium" is simply Uranium-238

Depleted Uranium is 238U (99.27% by mass), 235U (0.72%) and 234U (0.0054%). Source: http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs257/en/

There has been a mix-up; those are the figures for natural uranium. That source actually gives depleted uranium as 99.8% 238U, 0.2% 235U and 0.001% 234U by mass, but I would expect the true composition to depend on who made it. Man with two legs 15:48, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually DU is U with the U-235 isotope removed. And it isn't simple. Starkrm 16:19, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

The U-235 isotope will not be entirely removed in practice. Man with two legs 17:31, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Right. Nobody makes DU to produce DU - it's always the tailings, the processed Uranium coming out of an enrichment plant which is separating out the U-235 to produce enriched U for reactors or whatnot. The economics of raw ore price and how much the plant costs to operate change what amount of U-235 is left in by that plant... the "typical" amount is half to a third of the original U-235 quantity present, but that varies widely. Georgewilliamherbert 18:02, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

The U-234 is also removed from DU and concentrated in the enriched stream, quite accidentally but a bit more effectively than the U-235 is in both GD and centrifuge plants. This doesn't have a great effect on the nuclear properties of the enriched stream, but it's one reason DU has so little radioactivity. Andrewa 17:47, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Density

The density is 18.9 g/cm according to this source so it denser than lead. 84.173.249.205 21:03, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Problems

As I read this article, I have my doubts. Not many references are in the article. Some of the links to references are dead links or wrong. Some of the claims seem a bit difficult or POV. Does this stuff really spontaneously combust? It has a reduced level of radioactive material from natural uranium. How does it compare with pitchblend? How does it compare with being a stewardess or living in Denver? How does it compare with being downwind from a coal-fired nuclear plant? How often does it aerosolize and form a dangerous dust? Does the dust stay in suspension? How reliable are these tests of laboratory toxicity in animals? The use of the word nuclear in the article in a few places is suspect. I am not sure what to do, since villainizing depleted uranium is an important part of certain political agendas.

I think we need a more balanced and well-referenced article here.--Filll 17:43, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

:Uranium is indeed pyrophoric, but the source link seems to have gone stale. This is apparently its new location. As for comparisons, they would depend on how much you inhale, wouldn't they? The James S. Health considerations section has some passages which answer some of your other questions.

I want to know why people think that complaining about depleted uranium is part of a political agenda. Granted, opinions are likely to line up along the spectrum of the importance one ascribes to conventional military might, but why would there be other political motives? How is being opposed to depleted uranium exposure any different than being opposed to chromium exposure, a la Erin Brokovich? ←Ben 16:50, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I will look into it. Things always get messier when politics is involved. The problem with DU is that it is linked with the military and military operations, including some unpopular wars. As a result, people in the political sphere even will sometimes characterize it inaccurately as a "nuclear" weapon. --Filll 17:54, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I would advise that you read the past discussions on this topic involving James S. A number of Chemistry PhD’s and other science/engineering types stepped in and showed James’ contributions to be gross distortions and overexaggerations of the cited material. Also, advocating for a banded user can be a losing proposition. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 19:28, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I have read most of the archives, skimmed most of the pages in the arbitration, and slogged through the 2005-6 page history. One thing I am not seeing is a dispute about the interpretation of health effects sources. There were a lot of such accusations concerning combustion products and whether they were a gas or an aerosol, but I don't see any on the health effects. Are there any? For the health effects, all I see is dueling sources, with reliable sources contradicting each other. The sources for the health effects are often clickable so it is immediately obvious what they say. And I am aware that WP:BAN says action on behalf of a banned user is prohibited. It does not prohibit independent action. ←Ben 20:56, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I wouls suggest you review the material again, james was know for his "novel" interpretation of cited material. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 21:09, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I can't find anything about misinterpreting health/medical literature references, just chemistry. You were involved at the time; can you remember a specific example of the former? ←Ben 01:56, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 02:20, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough, but in the next section he links the same claim to which is about humans, not mice. ←Ben 16:28, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Brugge is an anti-DU activist. The bulk of scientific studies say that while high levels of DU have negative effects on animals, there is little to indicate that the exposure levels most commonly seen can be linked to significant health effects. This is the conclusion of nearly ever y study on the topic, and should be the dominant POV of the article, as it is the dominant POV of the literature. For example, the Royal Society of Medicine addresses most of the points in the article:

Reproduction

Studies on the reproductive health of workers in the nuclear industry, and of survivors of the atomic bombs, show little evidence of decreased fertility, or of an increased incidence of miscarriages or birth defects (Otake et al 1990; Doyle et al 2000).

Dust Inhalation:

Large inhalation intakes of DU particles may result in short-term respiratory effects, as would a large intake of any dust, but long-term respiratory effects are not expected, except perhaps for the most heavily exposed soldiers, under worst-case assumptions, where some fibrosis of the lung may occur from radiation effects, in addition to an increased risk of lung cancer that was discussed in Part I of the report.

On Immune Function:

Effects on immune function are unlikely to be significant and would not be expected to lead to increased susceptibility to infection.

On civilian exposure:

Those returning to live in an area where military action took place would be exposed to relatively low levels of uranium by inhalation and by ingestion. Although these intakes would increase the overall exposure to uranium, and may in some cases slightly increase kidney uranium concentrations, except in exceptional circumstances they would not be expected to be lead to any adverse effects on kidney function.

Adults and children returning to live in areas where DU munitions were deployed will be chronically exposed to slightly elevated levels of uranium, by inhalation of DU particles from resuspended soil and by ingestion of contaminated food and water. … Such levels might be expected to result in some kidney dysfunction but no effects have so far been reported.

This is typical of studies from the DOD, WHO, AMA and other governmental agencies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TDC (talk • contribs) 17:45, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, why is Brugge an activist, and even if he was, what difference does that make? Secondly, why do results from "workers in the nuclear industry, and of survivors of the atomic bombs" apply to those exposed to DU? All the other sections refer to DU specifically, and you can't deny that there has been an increase in soldier and civilian birth defects. ←Ben 18:09, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Because Brugge is an activist, and it considering that he is far outside consensus on this, places him in WP:FRINGE territory.

Uranium, depleted or not, has the same chemical properties and behaves the same way.

Of course I can deny that there has been an increase in soldier and civilian birth defects.

SANDIA REPORT An Analysis of Uranium Dispersal and Health Effects Using a Gulf War Case Study

A review in this study also found that veteran medical statistics do not support assertions of significant increases in cancers for DU-exposed veterans and that the statistics do not support assertions of significant increase in birth defects for their progeny.

Although in utero effects on the fetus (such as mental impairment) have been found to be statistically significant when pregnant women receive high radiation doses, no clear evidence of radiation-induced genetic birth defects has been observed in humans at any radiation exposure level. The probable reason radiation-induced genetic birth defects have not been observed in humans is that any increase in birth defects from radiation is too small to be detected relative to the spontaneous induction of birth defects. Thus, observation of genetic birth defects from DU exposure is extremely unlikely.

State Department of Health, Jackson Mississippi

The Department of Veterans' Affairs, Jackson, Mississippi, and the Mississippi State Department of Health conducted a collaborative investigation of an apparent increase in the numbers of birth defects and other health problems among children born to veterans of two Mississippi National Guard units who had served in the Persian Gulf War. The medical records of all children conceived by and born to veterans of the two units after deployment were reviewed; observed numbers of birth defects and other health problems were compared with expected numbers using rates from birth defect surveillance systems and previous surveys. The total number of all types of birth defects was not greater than expected, but whether the number of specific birth defects was greater than expected could not be determined. The frequency of premature birth, low birth weight, and other health problems appeared similar to that in the general population.

Walter Reed

During the study period, 33,998 infants were born to Gulf War veterans and 41,463 to non-deployed veterans at military hospitals. The overall risk of any birth defect was 7.45 percent, and the risk of severe birth defects was 1.85 percent. These rates are similar to those reported in civilian populations. In the multivariate analysis, there was no significant association for either men or women between service in the Gulf War and the risk of any birth defect or of severe birth defects in their children. CONCLUSIONS: This analysis finds no evidence of an increase in the risk of birth defects among the children of Gulf War veterans.

IAEA:

lt is not known if exposure to uranium has effects on the development of the human fetus. There have been reports of birth defects and an increase in fetal deaths in animals fed with very high doses of uranium in drinking water. In an experiment with pregnant animals, only a very small amount (0.03%) of the injected uranium reached the fetus. Even less uranium is likely to reach the fetus in mothers exposed to uranium through inhalation and ingestion. There are no available data of measurements of uranium in breast milk. Because of its chemical properties, it is unlikely that uranium would concentrate in breast milk.

The effect of exposure to uranium on the reproductive system is not known. Very high doses of uranium have caused a reduction in sperm counts in some experiments with laboratory animals, but the majority of studies have shown no effects.

IAEA Study

Since poor solubility of uranium compounds and lack of information on speciation precludes the use of radioecological models for exposure assessment, biomonitoring has to be used for assessing exposed persons. Urine, feces, hair and nails record recent exposures to DU. With the exception of crews of military vehicles having been hit by DU penetrators, no body burdens above the range of values for natural uranium have been found. Therefore, observable health effects are not expected and residual cancer risk estimates have to be based on theoretical considerations. They appear to be very minor for all post-conflict situations, i.e. a fraction of those expected from natural radiation.

UK Ministry of Defense

We conclude that, although there is the potential for uranium exposures to cause renal damage or lung cancer, the risk of harm following depleted uranium exposure in military settings seems to be low.

More? I could fill pages and pages on Misplaced Pages with material like this. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 20:53, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Could you start with the citations for those quotes, please? It's impossible to tell which are peer-reviewed, or when they were published. And as for Brugge, what the heck to you mean by this? Having your paper cited on an activist web site does not make you an activist. ←Ben 22:03, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

<undent>I don't deny anything. I just am disappointed to see sort of sloppy scholarship here, a lack of proper citations and references, lousy POV wording and other hallmarks of a crappy article.--Filll 18:12, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I certainly agree with that. I was thinking about a cleanup, but am afraid that the whole thing will explode again. WP:NPOV requires that both sides should be represented, and there are recent, reliable sources that were omitted here. Maybe we can rework it if we post some proposed changes here on talk and discuss them first. ←Ben 20:37, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

NPOV means we don’t over represent WP:FRINGE material and viewpoints (as the article currently does). So I suppose its going to breakdown to probably 85%-15%. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 20:54, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

"One important bellwether for determining the notability and level of acceptance of fringe ideas related to science, history or other academic pursuits is the presence or absence of peer reviewed research on the subject." There are a plurality of peer-reviewed sources on each side of this issue. ←Ben 22:03, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

If there are so many peer-reviewed sources, why are they not in the article, and why does the article come across as a completely biased confused POV tract?--Filll 22:07, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

References 19-24 are the only peer-reviewed sources in the whole article, pertinent to the health effects, and only the last one has anything more than a numbered link in the footnote text. To answer your "why" question, this article has been the subject of several protracted long-running edit wars. ←Ben 22:29, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Obviously there was terrible edit-warring here in the past. I can see some of the scars on this talk page and in the article itself. It is unfortunate that we are left with this burned-out ruin. I wonder if we can fix it, or should we just give up and leave it as a disaster?--Filll 22:43, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Sure, until the next edit war comes around. But it's worth it because that's the only way frequently contested articles make it into respectability (Scientology comes to mind.) There is a lot of bullcrap on both sides, with the anti-DU people saying it's worse than Hiroshima and the pro-DU people saying it can't cause any harm. The peer-reviewed sources are all in between, maybe we could agree on a ground rule to only use peer reviewed sources? Even the US government peer-reviewed sources warn of dangers. ←Ben 23:02, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

<undent>Of course all ground-up heavy metals are bad to inhale. And ground-up metals in suspension can ignite under some conditions. And of course, even alpha particles can be dangerous under some circumstances. But it can also be dangerous to live in Denver or Santa Fe. It can be dangerous to have a job as an airline pilot (because of the exposure to radiation). The exposure to radiation downwind of a coal-fired plant is dangerous. And so on and so forth. But for an article like this, we need to have some sort of balance and way to evaluate these statements and claims.--Filll 23:20, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

This sounds reasonable. I think we should document the minority views as well as the dominant scientifically-verifiable information on DU. We need references for all of it in the best possible sources. This will make this a far more valuable article. We should make it clear in the article which view is which, and what the support is for both of them, and where the controversy exists.--Filll 21:41, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

On reference 19: The text states “its proven mutagenicity”, the source states: Comparison of the different acute UO2 inhalations showed that the genotoxic effect appeared only at the highest tested dose ... all in rats. This is typical of the references that James inserted. He takes a grain of truth in the source, and then attempts to draw an argument, one that none of the sources touch on, from them.

This is not an issue of pro and anti DU (whatever that means). A summary of the peer review sources indicates that while high doses of DU have been found to harmful in lab animals (rats and rabbits) there is no epidemiological link between real world measured exposure levels (both acute and chronic) and these same effects. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 16:25, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

That is not a very good representation of the article, you've taken that completely out of context. Two sentences later: "And at the same cumulative dose as AcUO2-3, given as 12 lower doses, DNA damage in RepUO2 group was induced in BAL cells at all days post-exposure tested." And the abstract says: "Our results show that exposure to DU by inhalation resulted in DNA strand breaks in broncho-alveolar lavage (BAL) cells and in increase of inflammatory cytokine expression and production of hydroperoxides in lung tissue suggesting that the DNA damage was in part a consequence of the inflammatory processes and oxidative stress." The first few google hits on "depleted.uranium mutagenicity" support the statement.

This is why I'm hesitant to jump in here. As you probably know, I've been watching Gulf War and while I don't approve of using sockpuppets to avoid a block, I am pretty sure that there is no sign of any "scientific consensus" on this matter. ←Ben 17:09, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

As it now stands, this article just sort of reeks. Few references for any of its claims. And now it appears that the references do not back up the claims made. Misleading wording. No appropriate caveats or links to material to help understand it. I would like to see, if we can avoid WP:OR and WP:SYNTH, possibly here and/or in subsiduary daughter articles, discussion of things like:

• comparison of radiation from DU and other substances, both natural and processed by humans, and claims of activists and their rebuttal by other sources so we can understand that part of the dispute
• discussion of how some activists inaccurately portray DU as a "nuclear weapon" and rebuttal by other sources
• comparison of pyrophoricity of DU and other metals and under what conditions this is true. I would like the anti-DU activist claims that this pyrophoricity is the property of DU that leads to its value in weaponry be described, as well as rebuttals in other sources
• discussion of toxicity of the DU, and comparison with other metal toxicity when aerosolized, and in other forms. I would like to see claims and counter-claims by anti-DU activists and others. Lets expose the debate to the light of proper academic scrutiny here, with references and citations, as is done in other controversial articles on WP.
• discussion of aerosolization of DU, its temporal duration, and claims of anti-DU activists and their rebuttal by other sources.

This approach does not cover up the anti-DU claims, but puts them in context. It helps people to understand the claims of the anti-DU activists, but also to evaluate those claims in some sort of framework. I might have missed some of the outrageous claims that the anti-DU activists make, since I am not an expert in this area, but I have listed just those that come immediately to my mind which seem highly doubtful to me, or misleading if not considered in the light or more complete and detailed information and comparisons.--Filll 17:04, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

To briefly address your points, I don't think the pyrophoricity is controversial -- the link to the pictured 30 mm A-10 rounds explains that, and if you google around the military sources say the same thing, more than half of it burns when it hits armor. I don't think activists' or apologists' statements are worth including, but if we include criticism of the absurd claims on one side then we should include them from the other, including claims that DU is harmless which are not hard to find. I don't know if you're going to be able to find comparisons of pyrophoricity or toxicity or the duration it's airborne. My brief googling suggests that those factors are "not well studied" (e.g., this interesting NATO report -- so if it's not dangerous, why is NATO trying to come up with ways to defend against terrorist inhalation attacks?) ←Ben 17:26, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Please, do present a source that claims that "DU is harmless". The following from the IAEA: "based on credible scientific evidence, there is no proven link between DU exposure and increases in human cancers or other significant health or environmental impacts" would seem to indicate the broadest concensus on the issue. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 17:37, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

There's this from the section of Gulf War you've been editing. ←Ben 18:17, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Anyone who is editing these kinds of articles should know that the FAS is an extremely biased source and not a WP:RS source at all. One might as well use Answers in Genesis as a reliable source when working on the evolution article. And when metal is aerosolized, it can combust, even spontaneously. We did experiments on this in the laboratory when I was in high school. This is not rocket science here. My gosh. Even certain kinds of grain in grain elevators can spontaneously combust!

I think since this is a controversy, it has to be addressed as a controversy. It obviously has some political aspects. This should be revealed. It might very well have some real scientific controversies and unsettled science. This should be revealed as well. Why hide it?

Coal dust when inhaled can cause histoplasmosis. So can bat guana (feces), when aerosolized. Concrete dust and other junk that was aerosolized when the world trade center collapsed has caused the death and sickness of many of the emergency workers. I personally developed a chronic lung problem from breathing in smoke particles from a forrest fire that required serious medical treatment and pharmaceuticals. There are suggestions that aerosolized bits of rubber from tires can be hazardous to those living along freeways. Aerosolized bits of lead have been known to be dangerous for a long long time. Even lead compounds are dangerous, so we have taken them out of our gasoline. Mercury compounds that used to be a mainstay of medicines and preservatives have been largely replaced.

Anything that can be aerosolized and introduced in the environment is suspect. If it is radioactive, or even mildly radioactive, so much the better. Terrorist attacks rely more on creating fear and terror, and not necessarily on their true value as weapons that kill. A dirty bomb would be of this nature; more useful for disruption than for any other purpose. But it would be effective at causing turmoil, and we would have to clean up a big mess like we did after the Anthrax attacks. So of course, NATO and other organizations should consider these sorts of possibilities and make plans for them.--Filll 17:47, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Why is FAS biased? Here are some quotes from .mil sites:

• "Offering speed, mass, and natural pyrophoric attributes that enhance incendiary effects, DU rounds perform exceptionally well against tanks and other armored vehicles."
• "Depleted uranium is extremely pyrophoric (it will ignite spontaneously). Additionally DU will emit sparks when scratched or struck with steel."

Google is your friend. ←Ben 18:17, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I guess you never heard of a flint and steel for starting a fire? Lots of metals will ignite under the right conditions. Certainly with the energy of impact, lots of things will ignite when aerosolize.--Filll 19:05, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Metal doesn't turn to aerosol when it hits something, the aerosol comes from the metal burning. ←Ben 19:09, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Another USAF/NATO report

There is a ton of good stuff in the directory from the NATO report I linked above. Here's another one from 2005: "Although there are no conclusive epidemiological data correlating depleted uranium exposure to specific health effects, studies using cultured cells and laboratory rodents continue to suggest the possibility of genetic, reproductive, and neurological effects from chronic exposure. Until issues of concern are resolved with further research, the use of depleted uranium by the military will continue to be controversial." ←Ben 17:32, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

So we present both the political and the scientific aspects of the controversy, with references on both sides. What are you afraid of? What are you trying to hide? This does not serve the readership well.--Filll 17:49, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

That's the thing, there are not multiple sides of the scientific aspects of this. Nearly every study concedes that while there is evidence from lab animals that DU may cause X,Y, and Z, there are no coresponding human studies that have obseverd this. Or to quote the USAF/NATO report:

Since internalization of uranium in any form will result in a combined chemical and radiation exposure, there exists the potential for subtle differences in health effects between DU and uranium. Recent developments incell biology technology and understanding are providing more sensitive approaches towards understanding those differences (see ). Although it is doubtful that future findings will alter the view that mod-erate exposures to either DU or uranium present a significant toxicological threat, the new information could help improve current risk assessments of DU exposure

Torturous Devastating Cudgel 17:55, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I think that if we try to hide all the pseudoscientists completely, they will just become more frantic to edit war. We should put the pseudoscientists here with their references, and then present the scientific rebuttal. If there are real scientists that have contrary opinions, put them here too. If there are political activists, put their claims and misrepresentations here. If there are rebuttals, put them here. I wonder if an article like Depleted uranium controversy might be a good daughter article, and we put a lot of that material in there.--Filll 18:03, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I think it misght be a good idea to scrap the entire health effect section and start anew on a temp. Talk:Depleted uranium/temp health section. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 18:23, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I think we should leave it alone or change it incrementally. Your edit wasn't "scrapping" the health section, it looks like you took out the things you didn't like. ←Ben 18:51, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Of course I took out the stuff I did not like, that was the idea. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 18:52, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Well maybe what we should do is take a section of a time out, and put them in a sandbox, and work on them, and then replace the corresponding article section when we are reasonably happy with the replacement section.--Filll 19:01, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not opposed to copying sections, but I don't think they should be blanked or biased in the article in the mean time. ←Ben 19:09, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

If the sections are obviously wrong, there is no need to leave them as is of the correction is simple. Some of them are so bad, its a disservice to leave them as is; example:

Article Section as used

Scientific documents produced by the Armed Forces Radiobiology Research Institute write of the "numerous unanswered questions about its long term health effects"

Now for the whole quote:

The use of depleted uranium in armor-penetrating munitions remains a source of controversy because of the numerous unanswered questions about its long-term health effects. Although there are no conclusive epidemi-ological data correlating depleted uranium exposure to specific health effects, studies using cultured cells and laboratory rodents continue to suggest the possibility of genetic, reproductive, and neurological effects from chronic exposure.

Article Section as used

state that "moderate exposure to either DU or uranium presents a significant toxicological threat"

Now for the whole quote:

Although it is doubtful that future findings will alter the view that moderate exposures to either DU or uranium present a significant toxicological threat

There is no way that this material can stand as is without being corrected, or tagged as factually wrong, I would opt for the former, and work on additional issues in the draft. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 21:17, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

What are you talking about? If it's doubtful that future findings will alter the current view, what is the problem with stating that view? Those are fine. ←Ben 21:22, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Go back and read the old version of the article because it morphs "Although it is doubtful that future findings will alter the view that moderate exposures to either DU or uranium present a significant toxicological threat" into Scientific documents produced by the Armed Forces Radiobiology Research Institute... state that "moderate exposure to either DU or uranium presents a significant toxicological threat".

Its a clear distortion of a source and you dont see any problem with that? Torturous Devastating Cudgel 22:00, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

If someone says it's doubtful that future findings will alter the view that the world is round, that means they believe it is. That is not a distortion. ←Ben 14:56, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely, but the text currently does not mention the "it's doubtful that future findings will alter the view" and only includes part of the second.

In the article as it exists now: Scientific documents produced by the Armed Forces Radiobiology Research Institute write of the "numerous unanswered questions about its long term health effects", state that "moderate exposure to either DU or uranium presents a significant toxicological threat"

Now from the source: Although it is doubtful that future findings will alter the view that moderate exposures to either DU or uranium present a significant toxicological threat

Leaving out the first portion completely distorts the second. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 16:45, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Holy cow. Unless I am missing something, I think I perceive a problem here.--Filll 15:26, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Just a tiny one. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 16:45, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I do not understand. What if the article said, "It is doubtful that future findings will alter the view that moderate exposures to either DU or uranium present a significant toxicological threat." Would that be acceptable? ←Ben 16:51, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

It did at one point yesterday along with the Aussie report. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 17:55, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Uh, no, the words "doubtful", "future findings", and "moderate exposures" do not appear in any of yesterday's versions. ←Ben 18:37, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I suggest you read the link I put up again which states: Studies by the Armed Forces Radiobiology Research Institute have concluded that even though it was unlikely that future studies will alter the view that moderate exposures to either depleted uranium or uranium present a significant toxicological threat, the research was still useful to quantify risk exposure.

UK adjudication

Here's an interesting fact that made its way out of the article some months ago:

American soldiers are complaining of injuries that they attribute to depleted uranium. In early 2004, the UK Pensions Appeal Tribunal Service attributed birth defect claims from a February 1991 Gulf War combat veteran to depleted uranium poisoning.(ref>Williams, M. (February 9, 2004) "First Award for Depleted Uranium Poisoning Claim," The Herald Online, (Edinburgh: Herald Newspapers, Ltd.)</ref>(ref>Campaign Against Depleted Uranium (Spring, 2004) "MoD Forced to Pay Pension for DU Contamination," CADU News 17</ref>

I haven't bothered to track down the edit summary where it was removed. Are those sources reliable? I find it difficult to believe that those news stories would be forged, and this is certainly pertinent. Also, the Dr Schott stuff it mentions used to be in the article, too. ←Ben 19:02, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I would say no, these particular sources are not reliable. Material like this should be taken from primary sources, not filtered through secondary entities. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 20:44, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Here, Google News has a new "archive" feature, without which I would not have been able to find these:

Those are surely reliable. ←Ben 14:55, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Whats even more reliable are the studies that they cite. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 16:37, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Which are you referring to? ←Ben 18:37, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Goal

I propose that we copy the sections, one at a time, to a sandbox, then edit them there, and then replace the old section with an updated section, which will have more references, and give a more balanced view of this subject. As it reads now, this article is more like some hysterical left wing tract than an encyclopedia dealing with a serious subject with scientific and medical implications.--Filll 18:15, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm fine with that, and I propose that we also devote alternating paragraphs for pro and con on the controversial issues, and use only peer-reviewed sources on issues where peer-reviewed sources are available. ←Ben 18:39, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

There is already one up with a first rough draft. And if we only use peer reviewed source, I am fine like that. That should bring the article in line with the 85-15 ratio I had mentioned earlier. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 19:26, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Are we going to take it section-by-section or not? For this 85-15 thing, is that your own estimate or is there a source for it? If you try PubMed with "depleted uranium" it doesn't look like anything is as conclusive as you've been suggesting with your edits. For example, you changed the lead from:

"U-238 is a heavy metal whose compounds are known from laboratory studies to be toxic to mammals, especially to the reproductive system and fetus development, causing reduced fertility, miscarriages and fetus malformations. It remains debatable whether depleted uranium is dangerous to human beings at the low quantities in which it could possibly be ingested from environmental contamination."

to:

"U-238 is a heavy metal whose compounds are known from laboratory studies to be toxic to mammals, however the low quantities in which it enters the environment means that it does not pose a significant toxicological threat."

Where is the source for that? Also, and this pertains to your Gulf War edits, too, WP:RS#Claims of consensus says if you say there is a consensus, you have to have a very reliable source saying there is a consensus and not just a single non-peer reviewed source agreeing with your position. ←Ben 08:06, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

The Sandia Study: Marshall’s study concluded that the reports of serious health risks from DU exposure are not supported by veteran medical statistics nor supported by his analysis. Only a few U.S. veterans in vehicles accidentally struck by DU munitions are predicted to have inhaled sufficient quantities of DU particulate to incur any significant health risk. For these individuals, DU-related risks include the possibility of temporary kidney damage and about a 1 percent chance of fatal cancer. ATSDR: No definitive evidence has been found in epidemiologic studies that links human deaths to uranium exposure.

Rand: No increase in overall deaths has been observed as a result of exposure to natural uranium in several epidemiological studies. The literature review paid close attention to the ongoing study of a group of GulfWar Veterans who received the highest exposure to DU. Those with embedded fragments have elevated urine uranium levels, but researchers report neither adverse renal effects attributable to DU nor any adverse health effects related to DU radiation.

Another Rand Study: There has been extensive distortion in the media and on the Internet concerning the effects of DU, but the facts do not warrant such scare tactics. Sound, objective research by RAND, the World Health Organization, the Institute of Medicine, and the National Academy of Sciences has shown that exposure to DU does not produce any medically detectable effects. The author concludes that the full and unbiased presentation of the facts to governments around the world has resulted in the continued use of DU — even in the face of concerted actions by some to distort the facts and media often more interested in shock value than in presenting the truth.

IAEA: Based on credible scientific evidence, there is no proven link between DU exposure and increases in human cancers or other significant health or environmental impacts. The most definitive study of DU exposure is of Gulf War veterans who have embedded DU shrapnel in their bodies that cannot be removed. To date none has developed any health abnormalities due to uranium chemical toxicity or radio toxicity. It is a common misconception that radioactivity is the main health hazard of DU rather than chemical toxicity. Like other heavy metals, DU is potentially poisonous. In sufficient amounts, if DU is ingested or inhaled it can be harmful because of its chemical toxicity. High concentration could cause kidney damage. According to the World Health Organization (WHO), very large amounts of DU dust would have to be inhaled to cause lung cancer from radio toxicity. Risks of other radiation-induced cancers, including leukemia, are considered to be very much lower still.

I do not want to see this article locked down in debate for the next God knows how long. A temp page was made, no one edited it ... OK .. time to move the material over. Make your specific changes to article, and please stop rolling over my edits. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 14:30, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Maybe we should try again to do this section by section in a sandbox. Want me to try to organize it if you are having trouble?--Filll 15:23, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

So which of those reports you cite are peer reviewed? None! And what do the peer reviewed papers state? That the question is still inconclusive! Why do you think that it is even barely reasonable to use non-peer reviewed opinions as superior? ←Ben 21:36, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

They are all peer reviewed. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 21:39, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

By whom? Peer-reviewed means subject to the review of independent editorial reviewers, usually in a journal. Those reports are all in-house produced. ←Ben 22:35, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

radiation dose

In section "Health considerations", subsection "Radiological hazards" there is a sentence "According to the World Health Organization, a radiation dose from it would be about 60% of that from purified natural uranium with the same mass." Could somebody put a reference for that of a {{citation needed}} template? I can't because I don't have an account. Thanks. --78.0.67.6 12:48, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

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