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Revision as of 15:30, 6 November 2007

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Hello, Dooyar, and welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

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Please do not continue making uncited changes to the Karyn Kupcinet page. Calling it a compromise version is meaningless. Neither you nor the other party have a claim to the article.BillyJoelFan 02:12, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. Gamaliel (Angry Mastodon! Run!) 02:28, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Signing in

Hi, and thanks for your additions to the Gilda Radner article. I just wanted to let you know that it isn't so much that you were working on the article from the library as it was that you weren't signed in. There has been a LOT of vandalism from the LA Public Library that I'm always wary of anonymous edits from there. Keep up the good work and just remember to sign in!! Wildhartlivie 02:12, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Janis Joplin

Please be advised I am reporting this for WP:3RR violations. An editor is not free to continually revert good faith edits of others in order to maintain the material he or she has added, especially in the context of dispute over POV and content. Wildhartlivie 05:41, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. Wildhartlivie 06:01, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

First, a request for outside comment has been filed on this section. Secondly, WP policy does NOT require 10 or 15 other editors to be a consensus. Your work is not being destroyed and contributions to WP are no longer your property. If you can't take having your contributions edited, then perhaps you shouldn't be making them. Thirdly, you are now in violation of WP:3RR and have been reported for it. Such violations can result in your being banned from Misplaced Pages. We have both made good faith efforts to discuss this with you to no avail. Wildhartlivie 06:23, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Same goes for you, Wildhartlivie. If you can't accept my latest changes, then perhaps you shouldn't make anymore. You are in violation of WP:3RR because I have reported you for it. Dooyar 03:37, 28 October 2007 (UTC) dooyar

You seem to think that I'm out to get you, which is in no way the truth. I am trying to make this a good article. As it stands, it doesn't qualify as one. I did not violate WP:3RR. In fact, I left it as it was until consensus was reached regarding the content. Report if you want, working on an article that took several edits is not the same thing as deliberately violating the 3RR rule. I am, in a very nice way, reminding you that Misplaced Pages has a policy regarding conduct towards other editors and you were cautioned about showing incivility. Wildhartlivie 04:29, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Blocked

You have made edit summaries at Janis Joplin and Karyn Kupcinet containing statements such as "I won't back down" and "I can keep this up as long as you can", which are not helpful and border on incivility. If you are not willing to have your words edited mercilessly by others, you should not edit Misplaced Pages. Please return in 24 hours ready to compromise and work with other editors. Thank you. - KrakatoaKatie 13:02, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I didn't say, "I won't back down." I am reporting facts in both Kupcinet and Joplin articles. The coroner who said Kupcinet had been strangled was a screwed - up doctor. That's a fact. Janis Joplin said people had no right to dose others with LSD without their permission. That's a fact. Dooyar 03:39, 28 October 2007 (UTC) dooya

The issue is not whether the information itself is factual, the issue is the way in which it is being presented, which is POV and sensationalized. The request for comments consensus was to keep the "Points of view" title and opening that was there. It's a problem when the first thing you do when you come back is charge in and change it again. You are still trying to imply an air of animosity between Joplin and the rest of the musicians of the time. Making a statement doesn't imply "passionate disagreement." We are trying to keep a neutral point of view in this article and using words that cannot be verified is not neutral. I got out my copies of Janis bios and check the references. The word passionate does not exist in it. The title, as you've changed it, generalizes one or two issues to cover everything about the two sides, which also does not exist.

I did not report the 3RR issue regarding Karyn Kupcinet, that issue was discovered by the administrator when checking my report. However, you, in fact, did say you would not back down, on your revision of Janis Joplin on your edit here: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Janis_Joplin&oldid=166925481. The consensus was garnered the correct way, through the proper channels. An article should be written in a NPOV way. These new changes to the same thing that just went through consensus is arbitrary. My next step will be to take it to dispute resolution with no hesitation. Wildhartlivie 04:29, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I came up with a new compromise for that heading. "Points of view" is bland and it ignores all the hard work Janis did and the encouragement she gave to others who worked hard such as a young aspiring album cover artist named Phil Hartman. I changed it to "Belief In Freedom With Responsibility Despite Others Saying 'Without.' " As for your dispute of the word "passionately," what word would you use instead to summarize Janis' yelling at people for slacking and for dosing people with LSD without consent ? "Yelling" becomes repetitive. Begging a man for love was NOT the only issue about which she was passionate. Dooyar 04:51, 28 October 2007 (UTC) dooyar

See the talk page. :) Though I didn't address "passionately." I know it will seem weak to you, but I suggest "firmly". Wildhartlivie 08:48, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

References

We must talk!! I would love it if you would go read WP:REF, which tells what types of material is used for references and how they are supposed to be written. This and this aren't WP approved references and styles. Also, there are no spaces between the end of a word/punctuation/etc. and where the reference < starts. Someone will have to come along after you and correct those things, which is a huge effort. Thanks. Wildhartlivie 00:32, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I read it. I am not using Harvard referencing even though it is allowed. Is that what you think I'm doing ? Dooyar 22:35, 1 November 2007 (UTC) dooyar

No, no. Let's look at what you put in your two references.

You can hear this audio segment whenever the Biography channel repeats the Biography (TV series) episode on Janis Joplin. What you hear her and Bonnie Bramlett say matches exactly what David Dalton quotes them as saying in his book Piece Of My Heart, published by St. Martin's Press in 1985. He explains that he didn't plan on taping their conversation until Janis yelled at him to do it.

A reference needs to tell specific things. The tag on the Biography channel inclusion is asking for information on the Biography special. For example (and I'm making it up): Biography Channel: Janis Joplin. "Kozmic Blue." Aired 14 September 2003. Or in this case, maybe just the reference in the Dalton book is enough with leaving the Biography reference off of it.

Rolling Stone issue # 71 dated November 26, 1970, a 16 millimeter film of the First Tuesday segment is available at the Enoch Pratt Free Library in Baltimore, Maryland and possibly in other libraries, and finally, Myra Friedman cites interviews with both Joplin parents in the early chapters of her book. Myra also interviewed other residents of Port Arthur.

In this case, you're lumping what would 3 or 4 separate citations into one, yet still not giving specifics on it. If you got info from the Rolling Stone issue, it needs to be written out in the correct format: Author's name by last, first. Article Title. Rolling Stone. 26 November 1970. Specifics on the First Tuesday segment itself, not where it's housed. Then the Friedman citation. But the way these are presented, all in all, it's sort of saying "Here's where you can find it, go look it up." It's detailed, but not specific enough. Instead, partly, you're telling us where Dalton and Friedman got it. Does this make sense? Wildhartlivie 00:07, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Not totally. What do you want me to say about the First Tuesday television magazine that ran briefly on NBC so many years ago ? Do you want to know the exact date of the Joplin segment, which I suspect was the first Tuesday in January or February of 1971 ? The Nielsen rating it got ? The only thing worse than trying to write about a very old television show is trying to write about a very old television show that nobody watches, remembers or cares about in the era of 500 cable channels. I saw a 16 millimeter film copy of the Joplin segment that is available from the Enoch Pratt Free Library in Baltimore. I know what I saw and heard, and it was many years after its 1971 broadcast. Both of Janis' parents were on the screen talking inside their Port Arthur home. I can't pay for your plane fare to Baltimore, and 16 millimeter projectors are no longer manufactured. The ones that are still in use don't work very well. Lighten up, please. Dooyar 00:34, 2 November 2007 (UTC) dooyar

Why would the 1970 interview with Seth Joplin, done a short time after he lost his daughter, need an author ? It's one of those long, verbatim Rolling Stone interviews. I gave you the date of the magazine along with the issue number, which is how the magazine refers to its old issues. RS71 is the one. David Dalton wasn't the one who interviewed the singer's father. Mr. Dalton is the person who has a tape recording of Janis' conversation with Bonnie Bramlett, a portion of which I heard while I watched the Biography (TV series) hour on Janis. It matches exactly the transcript of their dialogue that he reprints in his 1985 book Piece Of My Heart, and I cited that in a footnote. The Biography hour on Joplin has been repeated so many times, on two different basic cable channels, that finding its first broadcast would be difficult. Again, lighten up, please.

And where did Myra Friedman get her interviews with Mr. and Mrs. Joplin that she cites many times in the early chapters of her book ? Where do you think ? She lived far away from Port Arthur, but she traveled there with a tape recorder. She didn't need a rock music promoter to accompany her to the interview. The rock singer she was discussing with several Port Arthur residents, including the parents, was dead at the time. There were no concerts, just storytelling and electronic recordings. This is getting to be like reinventing the wheel. I'm starting to envy people who can afford excellent car sound systems that do justice to Janis and other singers. Time to get a second job. Anything would be better than THIS crap. Dooyar 01:03, 2 November 2007 (UTC) dooyar Dooyar 00:49, 2 November 2007 (UTC) dooyar

You have to be flexible here. The mandate isn't that an author be mentioned, but most articles in Rolling Stone DO have an author. The issue is the format in which you are presenting what you are submitting as references. If you put material in the article which you yourself got from the Rolling Stone interview, then it has to be properly referenced. What I'm trying to explain to you is that the way you formatted the reference isn't proper. If you got the material from Dalton's book, then you can't put Rolling Stone in the reference, just Dalton's book. The same goes for the rest of it. If you heard a conversation on the Biography show, then cite it, but present it properly.

It's not a matter of lightening up. It's a matter of properly presenting sources in a format that is approved by Misplaced Pages. The long explanation of all the different places its been, presented as a paragraph with a reference tag, isn't according to WP:CITE guidelines. Tell me one other article on here that has citations the way these two were written. You cannot cite something that you yourself did not read, but heard on a tv show, without citing the TV show. And the particulars of when a specific episode on Biography can be found. Otherwise, you're putting forth original research. Dalton and Freidman and the man on the moon can have tapes of those things, but you can only cite sources that you have or have read. You can't use them as references because the source you read used them. But overall, my point is that the citations have to be put forth in the proper format. I'm sorry that you find this so tiresome, but this isn't an essay. It's an encyclopedia article and there are specific guidelines for these things. Wildhartlivie 02:05, 2 November 2007 (UTC)\

I cited the television show: "First Tuesday." You will find that in the footnote. I know it aired in early 1971, but I don't know the exact date. Obviously, it was the first Tuesday of a month. What else do you want ? The Nielsen rating it got ? I give up. If people want to, they can believe that everyone who ever died young of a drug overdose believed, "Everybody must get stoned" and they were survived by inarticulate, stupid, cocktail-gulping parents. Just like on Jack Webb's TV show "Dragnet." Webb was a documentary filmmaker, right ? Write what you want. I give up. Dooyar 21:10, 2 November 2007 (UTC) dooyar

No, you didn't cite it. You lumped it into a statement with other things. If you had cited it, you would have given more than that. There's no point in being sarcastic about it. This is the reason I asked you to read WP:CITE. I don't know what First Tuesday is. Apparently it's a TV show. Where did this information come from? Did you see First Tuesday? If so, where? What channel. If you didn't, where did you find mention of it? If it's a tv show, then you'd cite it something to the effect of: "Duet". Stargate Atlantis. 5 August 2005. No. 4, season 2.

The sentence you wrote says: "Several weeks later the parents gave long interviews to Rolling Stone, the NBC news magazine First Tuesday and Joplin's publicist-turned-biographer Myra Friedman." So, you lumped the citations for the entire sentence into one massive reference. There should be a citation after Rolling Stone, after First Tuesday and after Friedman. This is because WP:CITE tells you that you must tell where you got this information so that others can verify it. For First Tuesday, you tell the reader to go to the library in Baltimore, MD. If you saw it at that library, there is a card/computer entry, which gives all the info necessary to cite it. If you just read it in a book, then you must cite the book. Until then, this information needs to come out. I am trying to guide you into being a better editor with this. I don't have to, I could just take it out and not even try to guide you on how to cite things. Wildhartlivie 00:40, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Then take it out if you want. This is a very popular article that is attracting many vandals, several of whom have changed other stuff I put in it. I told you three times that I watched this television segment. I did not read a summary of it in a book or magazine. I saw and heard it. I remember what Janis' parents were wearing and what their eyeglass frames were like. I did not tell the reader to go to the library in Baltimore. I said there is a 16 millimeter film copy of it there, which doesn't mean it's the only library that has it. It could be in a lot of libraries.

Since you evidently never have been to the Baltimore library, then don't assume it has a "card/computer entry." I checked out the reel of 16 millimeter film in 1984 after finding the title "Janis Joplin" in the film catalog. I told the film clerk (it wasn't a librarian) that I wanted to check out that title, and he returned with it a few minutes later. All he needed was the title. I supplied the 16 millimeter projector, which I no longer own. (Do YOU know anyone who owns one ?) Several years later (1992), I heard a radio interview with Janis' sister Laura, promoting her book Love, Janis, in which a phone caller asked her if she recalled that 60 Minutes segment from shortly after Janis' death. Laura corrected him, saying it came from a primitive NBC news magazine show titled "First Tuesday." They both remembered the same comment I remember Janis' mother making, that Janis chose the blues out of several vocal styles she was capable of performing. She could have even tried opera. That's the same TV documentary, and it wasn't "60 Minutes."

I will try to split up those footnotes, but I can't guarantee it. This article is so popular that I could be 90 percent done with typing the changes and then the system tells me I am in an "edit war." The next time that happens, I am going to give up and let people assume that Janis, like everyone else who used hard drugs in the late 1960s, was a lot like a "Dragnet" character, and her parents were that dumb, too. I will stick with her music. You can make friends by talking about someone's music, but not by talking about First Tuesday. Dooyar 00:58, 3 November 2007 (UTC) dooyar

Update a few minutes later: Alright, I split up the footnote into three separate ones. There is no card catalog number for the 16 millimeter film of the First Tuesday NBC television segment. Just go to the film library and ask for Janis Joplin: Portrait of a Ripoff. It was broadcast shortly after the January 1971 release of Joplin's posthumous Pearl album, which got a lot of publicity because she was recently dead at the time. If this is not good enough, I give up. You won't hear from me again. Other stuff I put in this very popular article was deleted by Misplaced Pages regulars -- are they considered vandals ? I don't care anymore. Dooyar 01:19, 3 November 2007 (UTC) dooyar

First of all, there is little vandalism on this article. There are several editors making changes, and if they don't happen to agree with you, it doesn't make them vandals. Next, stating that you watched a television segment is not sufficient referencing. And saying you watched it in Baltimore in 1984 isn't one either. This borders on original research since you are working from memory 23 years old. This just isn't enough information to make it encyclopedic. Any material written for an objectively based must be verifiable. You can explain all this until you are blue in the face and it still isn't providing acceptable citations.

You keep taking examples I offer as a demand to give the reference in that way. I am not asking that. But, what I am saying is that if there is a 16 mm film out there that you saw, then somewhere, there is information about what it was, where it appeared, who did it, or specifically, when it was. It is in some file, somewhere. I appreciate the fact that you can recall it, but that isn't good enough to give in a citation, and if it can't be verified, it can't be used.

Next, there is absolutely no excuse for you to make sensationalistic statements about what people will think about Janis Joplin or her parents if you, personally, don't take it upon yourself to correct them. You aren't the only person in the world to have taken an interest in Joplin over the years and read and researched her. The difference is, some of us are trying to present this article within Misplaced Pages guidelines. Wildhartlivie 02:53, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I said it was a news magazine produced by NBC and broadcast by NBC. I said it originated in 1971. I saw it more than once in the 1980s. How would you like it if someone doubted your memory of watching a TV documentary ? I know what I saw and heard. I never claimed to remember every word of it. I said it had soundbite interviews with both of Janis' parents. You seem like a confused person. Please leave me alone. Dooyar 07:21, 3 November 2007 (UTC) dooyar

I am not doubting that you saw it or your memory of it. That isn't the problem. The problem is that in order to use it, it has to be verifiable, and a person's memory isn't quantifiable. The article needs a verifiable reference for the show if mention of the show is in the article. So long as you are working on this article, and I am working on this article, I will be where you are. I am not communicating with you in order to get close to you or be buddies. I am communicating regarding problems inherent in the edits you are making on this article. I'm not in the least confused, I am attempting to adhere to Misplaced Pages guidelines in regards to this article. Further, statements like the last two that you have above simply violate WP:CIVIL which could get you blocked again. I am trying to explain to you a very simple process, which is correct formats of citation. It comes down to this. Put your references in the correct format or it's highly likely they will be removed. Wildhartlivie 08:11, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Personal attack

I have moved this issue from the article's talk page because that is the recommended procedure. While I realize that you feel passionately about some of the topics that you edit on, please don't confuse my editing or issues that I bring up about edits as a personal matter. It isn't personal. As I said, so long as I am working on an article that you are, we will cross paths and as it seems, bump heads on issues. That being said, I do find your recent comments about me personally to be offensive. They constitute personal attacks and I will not accept that. You accused me of vandalism when instead I was making edits with which you don't agree, both in edit summaries, on talk pages and in your editor assistance request. You refer to me as a confused person when I tried to communicate with you over style and content issues. You referred to me as unstable in your editor assistance request and called me ignorant on the Karyn Kupcinet talk page and further implied that if no one replies to your attack on this talk page that it is my fault. Other editors have taken a break from working on this article because of the stress that is involved with it, long before I arrived at it. You have even accused me of reverting edits made (and can be verified from the page's history) by persons who edited before I started work on it and implied it was my fault that they left. You referred to my comments regarding issues as spouting garbage. Finally, you accused me of threatening you even though what I did was remind you of Misplaced Pages policies that can be grounds for blocking, as you were before (see above). This all constitutes personal attacks that are totally and completely unacceptable behavior on your part. Please be advised that if these personal attacks do not stop, I will take further steps to assure that it does not continue, through the appropriately ascribed Misplaced Pages procedures and policies. Wildhartlivie 02:34, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Blocked (2)

I have blocked you for 48 hours for personal attacks, incivility and general hostility against Wildhartlivie (talk · contribs). Unacceptable comments include "Please get some counselling. (...) You need some help", "Don't let this unstable Misplaced Pages contributor revert your edits. After all the garbage spouted (...)". General incivility and hostility include baseless sockpuppetry accusations, this diff and this diff. These are not exhaustive lists.
Misplaced Pages is a collaborate environment. Please rethink your attitudes towards other users on this site. Various avenues of dispute resolution exist if a dispute is not being resolved by talk page discussion with the other user. I apologise if you feel that Wildhartlivie should be the one being blocked, but over the past couple of weeks two impartial administrators have come to the conclusion that it is you that needs to change. – Steel 14:56, 6 November 2007 (UTC)