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West Garden Grove, Garden Grove, California

West Garden Grove, Garden Grove, California (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

This page is not about a city although it appears to be one. West Garden Grove is the "niche" name given to the west side of the town of Garden Grove by its residents and only by its residents, it is not recognized by the actual City of Garden Grove as a separate entity. While I can understand wanting the page, it is not a "real" place and lacks notability. It does not have a mayor separate from Garden Grove, it does not have a school district separate from Garden Grove Unified School District. It is not a city regardless of its attempt at appearing as such. IrishLass0128 13:36, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

• Delete per nom and merge any useful info to Garden Grove, California. There is nothing to distinguish this as a distinct community except for some trivial statistics. —dustmite 15:03, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
• It is apparently the richer half of the city, more or less demarcated by its zip code. Neighborhoods can be notable if they are referred to frequently as such outside of real estate ads. Delete unless such evidence can be found, there is none at present. DGG (talk) 15:06, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - it is not the "richer" part, it's essentially the more expensive part to buy a house in. There are fewer apartments on the west side of the city and most of the homes are pricey, when they go on the market, but a large portion of the population have owned their homes since the late 60's early 70's so their mortgages are low. Houses in certain neighborhoods get passed from parent to child when the parent retires. The article lists median income as $25,000 which is not considered wealthy. $25,000 is approximately $12 an hour. While that wage is good in some states, it's barely getting by in California. Just wanted to clarify that it is a self-segregated part of town, but it is not recognized outside of the immediate proximity. IrishLass0128 15:23, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

• Keep Delete - It is an area of Garden Grove that is distinct from the rest of the city from an economic and diversity standpoint. Articles on other cities, like nearby Long Beach, have separate articles on neighborhoods within the city. So although West Garden Grove is not a separate governmental unit, it is a notable neighborhood with its own residents association (www.wggra.org) that should have its own article. Alanraywiki 17:27, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

If you look at the articles on the various Long Beach neighborhoods, you'll see that the bulk of them (like Terminal Island and Bluff Park) include some information about the history and unique "flavor" of the locality in question. This article, however, presents nothing but statistics about income and population that do not speak to a unique cultural or historical identity for this area. If some sourced information in that regard were added, I would be inclined to change my vote. —dustmite 17:40, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - having a website and residents association does not make an area notable. Communities all across the country have their own websites. Anyone can create a website. As for it's own "economic and diversity" separate from the rest of Garden Grove, it is no different than other self-proclaimed "we're better than you are" area (note the 82% white ratio verses the rest of the minorities) of any city. Notability means that someone not born there would acknowledge it to be different and worthy. It does not play home to any great landmark, it does not have an exceptional sports team, it doesn't have a shopping mall, the Crystal Cathedral is not in West Garden Grove, it lacks notability on many, many levels. Google only hits on Misplaced Pages, WGG's own website, and many real estate sites. That adds to the argument for deletion. Thank you IrishLass0128 17:45, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

• Side comment, not only is the Crystal Cathedral not in west Garden Grove, it is about as far as you can get from west Garden Grove without actually leaving the city. In fact, if you're there and you lean too far east, you're in Orange. =) --Dennis The Tiger (Rawr and stuff) 19:58, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

• Comment/Question - how is 82.4% white diversity? That sure doesn't sound diverse to me. CelticGreen 01:29, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry I wasn't clear. It is different from the rest of Garden Grove because it is less diverse, not more. And I'm not making any statement as to whether that is good or bad, and certainly not that they are better than the rest of the city . . . just that the demographics are different. Alanraywiki 04:01, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Being elitist doesn't make one noteworthy. Any city can find a 4 by 4 square mile block that has a different demographic than other parts of the city. Being white and dense isn't a noteworthy reason to have an article. Just because there's a neighborhood with a bunch of white people in a city doesn't make it noteworthy. CelticGreen 04:30, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

• Again, this seems to be a rather personal issue about those darn folks from West Garden Grove being "elitist" and "white and dense" (I assume that means population density and not an insult about their intelligence, though the term "white and dense" makes little sense either way). All cities of any reasonable size have sections with differing characteristics. These are commonly called "neighborhoods". West Garden Grove seems to be a rather well-defined neighborhood, with numerous civic and community organizations using it as an identifying characteristic, and people outside it resenting the fact that the people in West Garden Grove are differenr. The article provides a rather clearly-defined description of the outlines and borders of this neighborhood. West Garden Grove seems to be different from the rest of Garden Grove and seems to have raised much loathing from the other Garden Groveans (or Garden Grovites, as the case may be). As defined by WP:OUTCOMES, "Larger neighborhoods are notable, but its name must have verifiable widespread usage." The hundreds upon hundreds of articles that reference "West Garden Grove" in a Google News Archive search demonstrate that this is "verifiable widespread usage". If I had access to Lexis/Nexis, I'm sure I could find a few thousand more. Misplaced Pages standards of notability have been met. Alansohn 06:32, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

• Voter's Comment - I just struckout my vote. I thought about the area more and more, and although the area is certainly distinct from the rest of Garden Grove, I find it difficult to determine what makes it notable. And I'm changing this despite the comments I perceive as rude made by CelticGreen on my user page as well as her own. I'm done with this article. Alanraywiki 15:39, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
• Voter's Comment, part II - I have changed my vote to delete because I was unable to justify its notability. I reviewed a history book of Garden Grove (The Town of Garden Grove by Leroy Doig). It's an older book (1966) that may be a little tough to find. I found it in the rare book collection at our university library, but it is a published source. The most notable thing I could find relating to that area of Garden Grove was in 1929 when Garden Grove Boulevard became connected to 7th Street in Long Beach and gave Long Beach a direct truck route inland (I guess this is before Seal Beach moved a little inland). Other than that, I did not see anything notable as far as history goes. Most of the growth came with the building of tract homes in the 60s and 70s. So, although it is a distinct neighborhood, I do not see it as notable. Alanraywiki 20:50, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

• Delete and Merge into Garden Grove, California Not notable enough for its own article, but deserves a mention in the main city article NF24_{Editor review)} 17:36, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Might want to change your vote. If you merge, you gotta redirect - GFDL requirements and all that. --Dennis The Tiger (Rawr and stuff) 19:53, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
• Merge and Redirect to Garden Grove, California. Speaking as a former resident of that city myself for about 5.5 years, I can assure you that the west end of Garden Grove is no more notable than any other part. It is simply part of Garden Grove. --Dennis The Tiger (Rawr and stuff) 19:52, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Redirect would leave the page open to being reimplemented (seen it more than a few times). There's no reason to redirect when deletion is an option and there's nothing really necessary in the article to be merged, most of it is already in the Garden Grove article. And I'll see your 5.5 and raise you 40. Believe me, I know that only citizens and former citizens recognize West in front of Garden Grove. IrishLass0128 20:01, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Good point on that. I'm open to deletion, but am partial to a redirection; if we do a redir, a hard protect would probably be useful if it becomes a target of reimplementation. --Dennis The Tiger (Rawr and stuff) 20:08, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

• Strong Keep. Notable enough and too much content for constructive merge. Many notable neighbourhood articles exist on wikipedia. Decoratrix 20:00, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
• Keep The name is used by area residents and is regularly used in the media to refer to the area. That the area is not recognized by the city is irrelevant. There are thousands of such articles for unincorporated areas census-designated places, communities and neighborhoods, in such places as New York City, Newark, New Jersey and Los Angeles, California, among hundreds of other incorporated places nationwide. As with West Garden Grove, none of these places are incorporated as cities, have their own government or school districts, and the lack of official designation is no impediment to an article. Alansohn 21:47, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

But notability is and West Garden Grove outside of the city has none. If it's so "widely used in the media", then prove it. That's the point of the discussion, proving notability. West Garden Grove is part of the City of Garden Grove and serviced by the city, it is NOT an unincorporated area. It has always been part of the City of Garden Grove. It's residents, however, feel that they are special and should be designated separately. That is not true. IrishLass0128 21:54, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to chime in again. The only time I've seen it used in the media is when Samantha Runnion was killed a few years ago - and even that is marginal. My !vote, as such, stands. --21:57, 6 November 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dennisthe2 (talk • contribs)

Agreed and researched Google search reveals no hits in the media for the full phrase of "West Garden Grove." Samantha lived in Stanton. IrishLass0128 22:06, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

A Google News Archive search on "West garden Grove" finds over 1,000 uses of "West Garden Grove" referencing the area and local organizations and facilities that use the name, with sources dating back to the early 1970s and used throughout the intervening decades. I couldn't give a crap that the area is not officially recognized by the city, that it is not incorporated or that you feel that the residents of the area are uppity snobs who look down on the local yokels who reside in what I presume is East Garden Grove. The repeated use of the name is clearly established in the media with hundreds upon hundreds of reliable and verifiable sources to clearly meet the Misplaced Pages:Notability standard. The burden is now firmly on you to demonstrate that this anything more than a WP:INOTLIKEIT tantrum as evidence by your statement that "It's residents, however, feel that they are special". Alansohn 22:16, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Deep breath. Having lived there for 40 years, I have considerable inside knowledge, which prohibits me from editing the article due to POV but it does give me insight into the workings of the community. West Garden Grove is not an unincorporated portion of the town, it is part of Garden Grove and is only called West Garden Grove by its residents (and some designations like sports teams where there is also an east, central, north and south league as well as library locations). I don't know what you are trying to link to in WP:INOTLIKEIT tantrum or why you are calling my comments a tantrum when I'm simply stating facts that in the current media, there is not notability. I, again, don't know why you keep harping on the fact that you "don't give a crap that the area is not officially recognized by the city" when I've clearly stated it is part of the city, not a separate entity unto itself. Have you been there, did you live there at one time? I ask because if you did you would have inner knowledge. I provided searches and I don't understand the allegations hurled at me, but I will not do the same. This is no temper tantrum, it's a fact that the article lacks notability. And a last FYI, the first 6 articles I clicked on didn't actually link to articles. At one time, before new schools were added, there were east and west high schools, but their names were changed. The issue is geographic notability as an actual location, not if a school's name was once east and or west. IrishLass0128 22:24, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

• Places are notable as long as there is demonstrable use of the term, which has been satisfied one thousand times over. The first six references to the "West Garden Grove" you claim doesn't exist all refer to the location as a place name, and you still haven't proffered a reason to reject the 1,014 other references to the name in the Google News Archive search linked above. I appreciate your distaste for the term "West Garden Grove", and I am not forcing you (or teh City of Cedar Garden Grove) to use the term, but the fact that you live there and I don't does nothing to support the fact that you want the article deleted because you just don't like the term. There is no requirement that it need be an incorporated entity. There are thousands of articles for neighborhoods, hamlets and census-designated places, none of which are incorporated bodies with any official status or recognition. As WP:NOTABILITY has been established with flying colors, and assuming you're finished with your deep breath, can you point to any part of Misplaced Pages policy that requires a place to be incorporated to merit an article? Alansohn 01:05, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
• Take a look at WP:OUTCOMES, which states that "Cities and villages are notable, regardless of size", but that "Larger neighborhoods are notable, but its name must have verifiable widespread usage." I think 100 articles using the term would be proof of "verifiable widespread usage". One thousand plus articles proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt. Alansohn 01:08, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Notability is established? Where? I looked at your list and it's a bunch of articles that link to the LATimes but not to stories and groups that have an east and west, as noted above. I think other users should weigh in instead of you and IrishLass0128 fighting. It's very unproductive but amusing if nothing else. And since you don't even know the name, it's Garden Grove, not Cedar Grove, I have to wonder about your objective opinion since you aren't looking at the article, or so it seems. You seem to really be missing the point that it's not a separate entity from the city, just the other end of the place.CelticGreen 01:23, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

In this case, here, I'm going to fill in where I'm coming from. I certainly acknowledge that distinctive districts of cities - especially those with a history and some notability - will be found on here. Case in point, here, you can travel about twenty minutes due east and wind up in Anaheim Hills, California, or go about twelve hundred miles north to the general area where I now live and find Eastgate and Factoria - both neighborhoods in Bellevue, Washington. But on the other hand, you don't have east Yorba Linda, California, or for up here, you don't have articles for Juanita and Houghton - the latter two of which are neighborhoods in Kirkland, Washington. I will accept that this looks like sort of the opposite of WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, but the point I am trying to make here is that there is a precedent for districts or subdivisions with notability, and in the case of west Garden Grove, the only distinction it has is that it is the more affluent part of town, and as user:Alansohn points out, several organizations have used the location name in their names. Last I checked, however, neither of those two fall under the constraints of WP:N. On the other hand, a check with USPS lists the zip code 92845 (distinctively for west Garden Grove) as nothing more than Garden Grove (not even a "Not acceptable" listing if you look here for the zip code), and ditto for east Yorba Linda (92887), whereas 98034 (the part of Kirkland where I now live) is distinctively Kirkland - yet Kingsgate, Juanita, and in this case, Totem Lake are listed, though as "Not Acceptable" - and in the case of Houghton (98033), you are instructed not to use Houghton, but Kirkland. Even in the case of 92807 and -08 (Anaheim Hills zip codes), you are instructed to use simply Anaheim, but the use of Anaheim Hills is acknowledged. A similar case exists for Factoria and Eastgate. I would think, then, that the case of this existing as acknoweldged by the US Postal Service would be another key here - not strict, but it helps. My !vote, accordingly, stands. --Dennis The Tiger (Rawr and stuff) 22:18, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Actually does lack notability.CelticGreen 23:55, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
  • What standard of notability does this actually lack? Have you read the article? Alansohn 03:50, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I have. Please stop attacking people with opposing opinions to yours. I can vote how I want for whatever reasons I want. And I make my own decisions. I don't see the notability and I've read and understand the arguments from the two editors that disagree with you. You've thrown out assumptions to other editors, shown lack of good faith to the original nominator, and basically attacked opposing opinions. I looked at both Google searches, yours lacked real links and the other had no hits. 1000 random hits doesn't necessarily mean credible or notable especially when you look at the linked hits. I've lived in many places, I've heard of Newark, most people have, so using that as reference to back you claim is lacking in weight. Your archive search lacks merit and includes clubs in a city where there's east and west of different variables. It also includes search results that require you to pay for the article which notoriously are misleading. Stop bullying people. It's not nice and doesn't lend to a positive resolve to a discussion. CelticGreen 04:13, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

• Reply to Alansohn - you seem to be assuming a lot of things that are not true. You accuse me of "not liking the name" which is far from the truth. You make up some term WP:INOTLIKEIT that you have yet to explain. And you attack other editors who just want to "vote" and move on. You assume that those in opposition are only individuals who have lived there. By my count only two of us that have weighed in are from there. AND ~ Why would I not like the name of the city I grew up in for 40 years? A city where part of my family still lives. I am not ashamed, as you assumed, I do not dislike the name. I am, however, a rational person who knows that West Garden Grove is not a notable enough community outside of it's own area. I live where there is a "north", "south", "east", and "west", high school all of the same last name. That does not make 4 separate cities, it makes it one large city with high schools just using their point/side of the city as a designation. Many areas have east and west portions of a city but it doesn't make their area noteworthy. The reason this was nominated, regardless of your opinion of why it was nominated, is because it is by and large not notable. Your links are old, outdated, and do not accurately reflect the area or the issue. You link to several articles that ask you to pay to read them or are incomplete. There are two searches, one produces no links, the other produces some outdated links where the useage of "West Garden Grove" is actually "west" (lower case) which would denote location, not name. I stand by my nomination that WGG is not notable enough to have an article. IrishLass0128 13:09, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

• I apologize. The proper term for pushing for deletion of an article with no valid reason other than one's distaste for the subject is WP:IDONTLIKEIT (and not WP:INOTLIKEIT). Either with the typo or without, it's an invalid argument for deletion. The fact that some of the 1,000+ plus available sources require payment is irrelevant, as the sources make clear use of "West Garden Grove" as a name to describe a well-defined community within Garden Grove. If the payment issue is what truly bothers you, ignore all of those requiring payment to read the article and come up with a rebuttal for the several hundred that don't. The fact that some of these references are "old" only proves that the term has been in longstanding use, only adding to the value of these usages and further supporting the fact that the neighborhood "exists". The source which your fellow Irish, female soap opera devotee User:CelticGreen has attempted to delete on a few occasions, which states that "Some residents in west Garden Grove (although city officials don't like to call it that)..." was carefully chosen to demonstrate that residents of the area use the term, even if City Hall doesn't. A search for "West Garden Grove" on the Garden Grove city website shows 37 results, including mentions of the "West Garden Grove Branch", "West Garden Grove Reservoir", "West Garden Grove Little League" and "West Garden Grove Residents Association", but uses lower case when referring to "west Garden Grove" in general, a likely effort to avoid giving any official recognition of the neighborhood which might lend credence to a possible secession drive. I'm sure that there are thousands of other potential neighborhood articles that could be created, including ones for North, South, East and West IrishLassVille; The fact that WP:OTHERCRAPDOESNTEXIST is yet another invalid reason for deletion. As to the reasons you've offered for deletion, you have indicated that this is just some "self-proclaimed we're better than you are" area. I understand your feelings of distaste at such snobbery, but that too is an invalid justification for deletion, it just doesn't have a name yet. Alansohn 13:52, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

• Alansohn Now I'm pissed and I'll admit it. You need to STOP with the assumptions and accusations NOW! I'm sick to death of you thinking I don't like my home town. STOP IT NOW! Seriously, get over yourself, stop assuming and start reading what the article says and the lack of validity for an article. Read what's written, not what you think is there. The END. You are SO not worth my time. I stand by my original nomination, get over it. IrishLass0128 14:07, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

• And for the record, there are a lot of subjects distasteful to me that I don't like and I don't "push for their deletion", so you can drop that accusation too. I can think of a dozen subjects I would love to not see, but you don't see me nominating them. I nominated this one for the reasons stated, stop with the accusations and lies. IrishLass0128 14:10, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

• OK, both of you, please chill out, 'k? --Dennis The Tiger (Rawr and stuff) 22:25, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

• Merge and Redirect to Garden Grove, California. The fact that local residents refer to their part of the city as something other than the city name doesn't make it notable. Arthur 21:08, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
• Comment - Anyone here inclined to keep should also check out WP:LOCAL - a cursory re-read indicates that this article won't hold up to that. --Dennis The Tiger (Rawr and stuff) 23:03, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

• Good point, Dennis The Tiger, WGG does not meet most of that criteria. And thank you Alanraywiki for researching the city. I maintain lack of notability and stand, again, by the nonimation. IrishLass0128 21:43, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

• Keep This site has community articles of communities that are much smaller than this one, and are much less notable. Should we delete all those too? How about the 23,000 cities that have populations less that West Garden Grove's 16,000 residents. Delete those too? How about all those cities or "places" with populations between 1 and 200 where there is no proof that they even exist, should those go too? How about El Modena, Orange, California, Orange Park Acres, Orange Hills, Orange, California, Talega, San Clemente, California, Newport Coast, Newport Beach, California, Balboa Island, Newport Beach, California, Capistrano Beach, California, Monarch Beach, Dana Point, California, and thousands of others in other couties which are FAR less notable and less populous than West Garden Grove, how about those? I can go on and on. If this one is deleted, I will personally ensure that all those are deleted too because there is NO reason those others are any different than West Garden Grove.

Also, I want to contest what you call "lack of difference". It has definate differences from the rest of the city. It is connected to the city by 1 road! Look at the map, it is practically separate from the main body of the city. Its independent location warrants independent material. Plus, its demographics are extremely different. 85% white versus 30% white is a BIG difference. Sorry, I see no merit in deleting this article.75.43.219.145 06:38, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

• Comment I'm not sure what map you are looking at, but Lampson, Chapman, and Garden Grove Blvd. are all major east-west arteries that connect the areas. There is a barely a break in the homes of this bedroom community except for some light industrial areas. I agree that the demographics are different than the rest of Garden Grove, and that was one of the reasons I originally voted to keep (but later changed). I also agree that a number of the communities you listed are not notable enough for their own articles and should be removed. Some, such as Balboa Island, are small but notable so they should be retained. Others, such as Talega and Monarch Beach, should probably be deleted. Size is not the determining factor . . . rather, notability. Alanraywiki 06:54, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Look at this map of Garden Grove. The western portion of red is COMPLETELY cut off from the rest of the city. How can you sit there and say that they are connected? It is practiaclly detached from the rest of the city. Also, type in Balboa Island, Newport Beach on Google. You will get 1,640,000 entries. Type in West Garden Grove and you get 1,510,000 entries. There is hardly a difference between notability. So are we setting a new trend that if a community article does not have more than 1.5 million links on google, it must be deleted because it isnt notable? That is what you are saying when you say West Garden Grove is not notable enough. Your contractictory rhetoric is totally ridiculous becuase frankly Balboa Island should go, and so should all the other communities in this county and in the US for that matter. If a community with 16,000 people, 1.5 million links on google, mostly detached from the main body of the city, and has its own community association isnt notable enough, then 95% of the community articles on this site arent notable enough either. I am sorry, but your logic, or lack thereof, does not hold up to the evidence presented.75.43.195.101 21:48, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Note however if you type in "West Garden Grove" (with the quotes) you get a far more accurate count of 35,500. The 1.5 million you mention do not apply specifically to West Garden Grove, they apply to any article with ANY of the three terms in it, including for example Garden Grove. For reference, using "Balboa Island" gets 179,000, which is 5 times what "West Garden Grove" gets. If (and that's a big if) we're going to use Google as a standard, let's at least be sure we get an accurate count. Arthur 22:10, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

There are 4 Balboa Island's in the US that I have found. So divide that number by 4 and you are pretty close to West Garden Grove. You are barking up an empty tree because everything you have said has been fairly wrong. I dont even see you trying to discount the other facts about West Garden Grove (how its detached from the city, its 16,000 person population, its difference in demographics, and the fact that it has a Residents Association) has not even been rebutted by you. I would also like to go further and say that this Request for Deletion needs to be redone because it was introduced giving people wrong information about the community. The way the intro is worded-its no wonder there are so many "no's"75.43.195.101 02:09, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

I always find anonymous IP addresses voting "interesting" to say the least. Just makes me wonder. That said, the original nomination was done by someone who grew up there. She gave Alanraywiki a whole rundown on the area that was interesting. People don't vote, most at least, on the nomination but rather the article. I voted based on the article and the arguments and argumentors here. CelticGreen 02:20, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

• Keep we have all kinds of neighborhood articles in Misplaced Pages, even categories of them. We even have "census designated places" all over Misplaced Pages. It's what we do and it's encyclopedic.Noroton 22:34, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and what's in the article meets WP:N, and what's not in the article, as shown at Google News Archives indicates it handily meets WP:N. Noroton 22:41, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

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