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Revision as of 03:51, 17 November 2007

New article

Hello all. I have set up this new article as a companion piece to the Prem Rawat article, to try to give a fair and neutral idea of the flavour of Prem Rawat's speeches in his long public life. The attempts I have observed elsewhere to deal with this topic, while apparently sincere, seem mostly to be based on the partially informed views of biased observers, and concentrate on the time when Prem Rawat was still a teenager. This is unfair, and I can think of no one else it would be applied to. I invite editors to improve this article in compliance with wp:blp. Rumiton 12:21, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Much better. Thanks. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 11:34, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I just removed some more unsourced, opinionated and libellous ravings from Wowest, thinly disguised, as usual, as humour. This is exactly the sort of behaviour on Misplaced Pages that results in permanent banning. Take it as a warning or not, I don't care much. Rumiton 12:32, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Wowest: these pages are not a discussion forum or a chat room. Talk pages are provided to discuss improvements to the articles in Misplaced Pages. You can engage in private conversations, to some extent, in your personal talk page User_talk:Wowest, or the personal talk pages of editors. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:49, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Precisely. And comparing a living person with no record of wrongdoing to a convicted murderer is libellous. And yes, talk pages are a public place, anyone can read what is written here. To avoid causing hurt to innocent persons, any controversial opinion needs to be backed up by references to multiple reputable sources. Rumiton 23:33, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Jossi, please have Wowest blocked.Momento 00:51, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I am inclined to agree. I get the feeling he has spent time on the kind of forum where you can say anything you like so long as it's nasty and the locals will flock to tell you how clever you are. That's the worst apprenticeship for Misplaced Pages work, and creates disruptive and time-wasting Wiki editors. No more of this. Rumiton 09:03, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

User has been warned in his talk page. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:32, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

This page looks impressive in NPOV. Job is done nicely here. But sadly, the main page of Prem Rawat only seems to be a chronological submission of criticism. Can't something be done to it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Taxed123 (talk • contribs) 17:16, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Some sources

• Hunt:

one's "own nature." The Knowledge includes four secret meditation procedures: Light, Music, Nectar and Word. The process of reaching the true self within can only be achieved by the individual, but with the guidance and help of a teacher:: The tens of thousands of followers in the West do not see themselves as members of a religion, but the adherents of a system of teachings that extol the goal of enjoying life to the full.

For Elan Vital, the emphasis is on individual, subjective experience, rather than on a body of dogma. The teachings provide a kind of practical mysticism. Maharaji speaks not of God, but of the god or divinity within, the power that gives existence.

Although such references apparently suggest an acceptance of a creative, loving power, he distances himself and his teachings from any concept of religion.

• Geaves:

The teachings were essentially Hindu in origin, embracing a worldview that accepted transmigration of souls, karma, human avatars and imbedded in an interpretation of the Upanishads and the Bhagavad Gita. However, a discerning listener would have recognized the radical voice of the North Indian nirguna bhaktas, also defined as Sants, notably Nanak and Kabir, especially in the message of universalism, equality and the focus on inwardness rather than the outward forms of Hinduism.

Although occasionally drawing upon Indian anecdotes to use as examples for his teachings and referring to Kabir and Nanak, there is apparently little in his current idiom that could be linked to Hinduism, on the contrary, he openly challenges transmigration and the law of karma as only belief systems that cannot be verified as fact.

Although there are many who would assert that his authority lies in his charisma, Prem Rawat himself has stated that he does not consider himself to be a charismatic figure, preferring to refer to his teachings and the efficacy of the practice of the four techniques on the individual as the basis of his authority.

• Barret:

"Elan Vital has now dropped all of its original Eastern religious practices. Unusually, the fact that Maharaji came from a lineage of 'Perfect Masters' is no longer relevant to the reformed movement. This is not where the authority comes from, nor the recognitin of Maharaji as the master by his student; this comes rather from the nature of the teaching and its benefit to the individual."

The experience is on individual, subjective experience rather than on a body of dogma, and in its Divine Light days the movement was sometime criticized for this stressing of emotional experience over intellect. The teachings could perhaps best described as practical mysticism.

• Stonner and Parke

Guru Maharaj Ji claims to understand the key to the essence and spirit of knowledge and truth. He says he is in touch with the force of life that lurks in the inner recesses of all living things. He promises the same to those who will follow him. "He who seeks truth, finds it," the young guru tells his disciples.

The Divine Light Mission gives equal billing to all well-known religions and their scriptures, the Torah and all the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Koran, and the Bhagavadgita. Perhaps because the movement originated in India it emphasizes the teachings of the Hindu scriptures, the Bhagavadgita. The God of Divine Light resembles the impersonal concept of infinite power and energy of the Hindu omnipresence more than it does Western man's image of a rational and willful God who created the Universe and has a plan for it.

Maharaj Ji teaches that God is the source of all life. "God is an omniscient power that is hidden in the secret recesses of all living things..."

• Messer

His teaching consists simply of what he calls "giving knowledge," not of any extensive set of moral precepts. Unlike most Eastern religious teachers, he generally refuses to give concrete instructions regarding what one should eat, how one should make a living, or what one's disciplehood should involve. All of truth is in "the knowledge."

• Edwards:

In its earlier existence Divine Light teaching derived mainly from Hinduism. Maharaj Ji, as the guru, imparted wisdom upon his followers. The guru taught that humanity is inherently divine. For people to attain this divinity, which came from the teachings of Guru Maharaj Ji, who is of the line of Perfect Masters.

Maharaji now teaches a simple self-discovery process, involving the use of four simple techniques to turn the senses within and appreciate the joyful basis of existence beyond thoughts and ideas. He denies that his teachings represent instant gratification, but he sees it instead as an ongoing learning process that c an enrich an individual.

• Prince & Riches: The New Age in Glastonbury: The Construction of Religious Movements

Maharaj-ji was considered to be deeply spiritually imbued, enabling him to teach secret techniques of meditation were considered to heighten spiritual experience and help people realise their full potential in day-to-day living in the material world.

Will add some more later today, that could also be used. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 11:47, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

More text that could be incorporated

• Messer, on the aspects of "mind"

Westerners approaching Eastern teachers from any school are confronted with constant reiteration that the mind is the barrier to enlightenment, whether enlightenment is described as complete nothingness or as perfect bliss or as knowledge of God. Needless to say, that truth could not be accessible to the mind. Westerners are generally accustomed to identifying themselves with the boundaries of their bodies, the thoughts in their minds, and with their emotions, such as depression or ecstasy; to be told that their identity is essentially different is to be informed of nothing. Maharaj Ji's devotees claim, however, that it is possible to experience that fact, whether or not the mind is willing to acquiesce. There is no way-functionally at least-to bypass the premises of rationalism except to introduce experience where the mind says experience is not possible-that is, to provide incontrovertible evidence to which the mind has no alternative but to acquiesce. To assert that the mind cannot comprehend God is not to assert that the man cannot, if one is accustomed to that distinction; but many of us are not so accustomed, and have long asserted that God is an entity in whom one believes, an entity, that is, beyond experience.

Merge proposal

After reading this material, it seems that it would be best served if merged with Techniques of Knowledge, either under that title or under the title of this article. The reason is that I do not think that these are two different subjects. Also, I think we need information available on the basic practice of "Listening, Participation, and Practice" (formerly referred to as "Satsang, Service, Meditation in DLMs time) ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:39, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes to the merge, but I suggest not until the basic article takes a more permanent shape. The only problem with S,S and M, as I see it, is that they were always means to an end, the end, again as I see it, being that individuals should be able to live in peace and dignity. TPRF is also so aligned. Rumiton 11:17, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

OK. We can wait. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:20, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I have added proposals to merge. I reading both articles I can see how well these two can be merged. After the merge we will need a summary at Prem Rawat under a section named "Teachings"" as per WP:SUMMARY ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:41, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I think "Teachings" is the better title.Momento 19:56, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Maybe it's the time now to merge, if everyone agrees. WP:SUMMARY looks fascinating but I don't have any time at the moment to study it, so if we go ahead some help would be appreciated. Thanks. Rumiton 10:56, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

It is quite simple: merge Techniques of Knowledge to here, redirect that article to here (#REDIRECT ]), and write a summary of this article for the main article, under a section named "Teachings". ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:22, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I don not think we need Glen Whitaker's comment in an article that is based on scholarly sources, in particular as it does not add anything that has not already been said. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:17, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it does look out of place, as well as promotional. I'll take it out tonight. Rumiton 01:20, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Summary needed

A summary of this article needs to be added in a new section to the Prem Rawat article as per WP:SS. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:47, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Name or Word Technique using a Mantra word

"Kranenborg additionally states that it employs mantras while exhaling." This Mantra idea is false and is not verifiable. The current techniques are not public but they have not changed from the old Knowledge days. These are widely available on the web . Misplaced Pages is meant to inform as accurately as possible and hence I am removing the Mantra reference because it is misinformation.

1. tephen J. Hunt Alternative Religions: A Sociological Introduction (2003), pp.116-7, Ashgate Publishing, Ltd. ISBN 0-7546-3410-8
2. Geaves, Ron, Globalization, charisma, innovation, and tradition: An exploration of the transformations in the organisational vehicles for the transmission of the teachings of Prem Rawat (Maharaji), 2006, Journal of Alternative Spiritualities and New Age Studies, 2 44-62
3. Barret, David V., The New Believers: A Survey of Sects, Cults and Alternative Religions (2003),pp.65, Cassel, ISBN 1-84403-040-7
4. All Gods Children: The Cult Experience—Salvation Or Slavery?, pp.29 Chilton (1977), ISBN 0-801-96620-5
5. Messer, Jeanne. 1976 "Guru Maharaj Ji and the Divine Light Mission," in Charles Y. Glock and Robert N. Bellah, eds. The New Religious Consciousness. Berkeley: University of CaliforniaPress. pp.52-72.
6. Edwards, Linda. A Brief Guide to Beliefs: Ideas, Theologies, Mysteries, and Movements, pp.277-79, Westminster John Knox (2001), ISBN 0-664-22259-5
7. Prince, Ruth, Riches, David, The New Age in Glastonbury: The Construction of Religious Movements, pp.100, Berghahn Books (2001), ISBN -157-181792-1