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Ron Paul Liberty Dollar Political Raid

Thank you for your posts but the political Liberty Dollar Raid was carried out by the FBI to try to block the Dr. Ron Paul Revolution in the United States of America (USA). Dr. Ron Paul seems to be the strongest candidate for President of the USA according to a recent poll taken by: www.latinoronpaul.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.224.231.139 (talk) 19:33, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Welcome to Misplaced Pages. I see by your edits that you're very interested in these topics, but I believe you will want to learn about how to create neutral info by reading this link: WP:NPOV. Edits that read like advertisements or are copied from other sites are discouraged. They are not acceptable in main articles and only a little useful in talk pages like this talk page. If you have reliable sources showing the connection between the FBI raid and the Ron Paul Revolution (more than a speculative connection), it might be worth adding to Liberty Dollar, or you have a reliable source for that poll (I couldn't find it at your site), it might be worth adding to 2008 straw polls. Please reply on this talk page, or open an account so you can have your own talk page. John J. Bulten (talk) 22:38, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Libertarian

This man has been called a libertarian? That makes my head spin. 83.248.138.49 10:08, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

• What? Are you saying you you don't think he is one? Do you know what a libertarian is? 68.181.240.94 21:47, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

There are many politically-uninformed Americans who think that 'Libertarian' means 'Liberal', just because they both start with the same 5 letters. If you fall into that category, I suggest visiting Libertarian. In short, a 'Libertarian' is somebody who advocates Liberty. And in the United States (where many would claim that 'Liberty' is one of the primary principles on which this country was founded), a 'Libertarian' is almost indistinguishable from a 'Constitutionalist'. And it is entirely proper to label those who advocate strict adherence to a 200-year-old political system as 'conservatives'.

I hope these comments aren't viewed as some sort of libertarian proselytizing for the libertarian cause -- but "83.248.138.49" isn't the first person I've seen scratching their heads over the definition of this particular political label. There are many 'conservatives' in this country who have come to despise 'liberals'. And it causes them a great deal of confusion when they hear an ultra-conservative such as Paul described as a 'libertarian', because they simply cannot fathom how a 'conservative' can also be a liberal libertarian. I hope I've helped clear up that some of that confusion. - Big Brother 1984 02:23, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I believe, reading Dr. Paul's platform, that he adheres very closely to the issues near and dear to the Libertarian party. The only exception I see is his stand on abortion. Even then L.P. is somewhat "loose" on the abortion question. Click on Our Issues then Platform to get a summarized rundown of the typical libertarian stance on the issues. Hope this helps. BingoDingo 19:22, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, to be honest I haven't been closely following the LP's platform process recently, but I certainly hope they haven't taken anything close to Paul's position on immigration. The principled small-l libertarian position is that freedom of movement is a natural human right; you might go to your new country and starve if you can't find a job, but the country doesn't have the right to keep you from coming in and trying. --Trovatore 19:30, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

I won't presume to speak for the original poster, but many hard-core libertarians I know think he is not a true libertarian, but rather a minimalist conservative Republican who has milked the libertarian movement for money, and who exploited their label to gratify his ego by running a nationwide race to build up his fundraising list. --Orange Mike 16:48, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Not sure what a "hardcore libertarian" is. A libertarian is simply someone who believes in liberty. Maybe a "hardcore" or "true libertarian" is an anarchist. Sure, yes, Paul is not an absolute libertarian, because he's not an anarchist. But, he never claimed to be a "hardcore libertarian," "true libertarian," or anarchist. Operation Spooner 17:42, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, let's not digress into a "No true Scotsman" argument. Political labels are often poorly defined, are constantly evolving, and are often misused by opponents and proponents alike for political gain. Paul describes himself as a constitutionalist. And as I said earlier, in the U.S. a constitutionalist is almost indistinguishable from a libertarian. Yes, there are a few things which Paul advocates which contradict the "official" Libertarian party platform -- the two main ones being Abortion and Immigration. As a constitutionalist, Paul sees the Abortion question to be one of criminal law, medical necessity, and personal choice -- all of which call for an answer at the State level. And when it comes to immigration, Paul sees protecting our borders as one of the things that the federal government should be doing. So yes, his "constitutionalist" viewpoint causes his opinions to be slightly different from the big-L Libertarians, but these differences are pretty minor and not enough to completely disqualify him from being called a "libertarian". -- Big Brother 1984 04:42, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

It's not about the federal government or otherwise; it's much more basic than that. If you have a natural-rights based philosophy of liberty, then you can't make a distinction between Americans and non-Americans -- citizenship is plain irrelevant to the status of a person's natural liberties, including freedom of movement. For a small-l libertarian that comes before any questions about organization of the federal union or the constitution; however valued those may be, they are artifices of Man. For a big-L Libertarian it could be different. As I say I haven't paid much attention to what's been going on with the party in recent years. --Trovatore 04:58, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

But not all libertarianism is based in natural rights. Many libertarians are consequentialists. They don't subscribe to the non-aggression principle. They don't seek liberty as an end in itslef, but as a means to an end. If too much liberty is going to have bad consequences then they're not going to support liberty to an absolute extent. They simply think "liberty works," in most cases. So a consequentialist is going to support the existence of a state and minimal invasion, such as taxation, and other limitations on liberty. If you're really a natural rights based libertarian, then I think you have to be an anarchist. Operation Spooner 19:37, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

In fact there has been a movement to remove the opposition to "initiation of force" from the Libertarian Party platform, though that movement has not been successful. Operation Spooner 19:39, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not saying that I don't agree with you. But i think we need to be careful about restricting the use of the word "libertarian" only to those who agree with the particular viewpoint of a particular American political party. We certainly would not call a politician "undemocratic" just because he doesn't endorse the "official" Democratic party platform. Likewise, it is wrong to limit the term "libertarian" to those who endorse the official Libertarian party platform. The dictionary defines a "libertarian" as "a person who advocates liberty, esp. with regard to thought or conduct." And I think it is fair to label Ron Paul as just such a person. But it all depends on how narrowly you wish to define the term. I'm sure there a many in the American Libertarian Party who would view the term "Libertarian socialism" as a contradiction. Yet, Noam Chomsky exists. Again, it all depends on how narrowly you wish to restrict the usage of the term 'libertarian'. In the US, the term 'libertarian' is often restricted to those who adhere to what is more properly called a 'libertarian-capitalist' philosophy. But to try to restrict its usage even further in the way you are suggesting is probably going a bit too far. -- Big Brother 1984 05:19, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, you do have a point about the fact that there are different notions of "libertarian" around. But I want to emphasize that the way I'm using it has nothing whatsoever to do with the LP or its platform per se. It's a philosophy (or related group of philosphies), not a party. What I'm saying is that I don't really see Paul in the philosophical tradition of Hospers or Nozick or Thoreau or Locke. --Trovatore 18:15, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

His values of states' rights over individual liberty as evidenced by the We the People Act certainly runs contrary to the principles of libertarianism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.22.53.24 (talk) 19:07, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I kinda thought WTPA was a valuation of states' rights over federal rights, bringing the rights back closer to the People. I don't see that Act as contradicting any individual liberty. John J. Bulten (talk) 04:28, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Ron Paul Picture

Could someone add a newer and better picture of Ron Paul like the one on his campaign site? :

http://www.ronpaul2008.com/uploads/image/48.jpg

There may be copyright issues. ~ UBeR 22:58, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm trying to get permission from the official Campaign... But you could change the Picture on top with the one at "Political Positions", which is this one:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/Ronpaul1.jpg

Wär das okay?

Photos submitted to Wikicommons must fall under the GNU license. The problem is that once a photo or other visual is posted to Misplaced Pages there is nothing to prevent the image from being copied and used elsewhere. This, in turn, would open[REDACTED] up to copyright infringement suits. Not good. BingoDingo 19:31, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

But the author of this article could switch the photos that are ALREADY within the article. My suggestion is to use the Picture from "8 Political positions" and put it on top of the page - and the one on top down to "8 Political positions". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.169.123.179 (talk) 19:48, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

I finally reached someone from the official campaign. They added a disclaimer so Misplaced Pages can use the Photo from the campaign-site: "© Ron Paul 2008 PCC. (Unaltered use permitted)" :

New Main-Photo: http://www.ronpaul2008.com/uploads/image/48.jpg

Disclaimer: http://www.ronpaul2008.com/get-involved/downloads/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.169.99.187 (talk • contribs)

I have uploaded it and added it to the article. Someone might want to double check if I put enough information on the image page though, not entirely sure about it. ~Rangeley (talk) 04:23, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Awesome! Thank you very, very much. :)

Sorry, 'unaltered use' is not enough- images used on[REDACTED] have to be freely editable- this is why we don't allow the creative commons-no derivatives license for example, even though it's free in all other respects. Misplaced Pages:Image use policy says that Images which are listed as for non-commercial use only, by permission, or which restrict derivatives are unsuitable for Misplaced Pages and will be deleted on sight. Borisblue 03:27, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

To clarify, the only problem with that image was the 'unaltered use only' clause. To be considered free, people have to be able to make derivatives and alterations to the original image. See if you can get the campaign to release the image under one of these licenses: Misplaced Pages:Image_copyright_tags/Free_licenses. THanks! Borisblue 13:28, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

English isn't my Mother tongue: What exactly SHOULD the disclaimer say to be legal??? I really wonder what this fair-use is about I read all the time at Wiki-Images. Tell me what the disclaimer should say and I will pass it on to the campaign. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.169.85.138 (talk) 13:42, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

It should say this: specifically, that we are allowed to edit the image as well. Borisblue 14:41, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

It should say: >>> "to Share — to copy, distribute and transmit the work, to Remix — to adapt the work Under the following conditions: Attribution. You must attribute the work in the manner specified by the author or licensor (but not in any way that suggests that they endorse you or your use of the work). For any reuse or distribution, you must make clear to others the license terms of this work. The best way to do this is with a link to this web page. Any of the above conditions can be waived if you get permission from the copyright holder. Nothing in this license impairs or restricts the author's moral rights.Your fair dealing and other rights are in no way affected by the above. This is a human-readable summary of the Legal Code (the full license)."<<< ?

That's a lot of text for one Picture, isn`t it?

Could you just formulate the disclaimer so I can copy and send it? I'm no lawyer. :D

You just have to say that this image is under the creative commons attribution 3.0 license and then link to that page. One possible way to formulate it can be found here; just tell them to stick that html code on the bottom of the image. If you prefer, just give me their contact information and I'll ask them for you. Borisblue (talk) 00:54, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

The person from the official campaign I spoke to is Mr. Lam (eCampaign Director). His Email-address is |removed| - (I will delete the address as soon you replied in here). It would be great if you could contact him since this is the fastest and less complicated way. :)

Done. Borisblue (talk) 17:00, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Woohoo! :D Awesome, Boris! Thanks for your help! :)

"Powwow" summary

Construing my call for powwow as seeking consensus rather than vote, and including editorial silence in Talk for 10 days and the contemporaneous edits, I now venture to speak for consensus as supporting the following:

• Protecting lead stability: Yes on (1) expand the in-line comments throughout to steer new careless edits away from summaries to other sections; (2) remove all fluctuating statistics from the lead, replacing them with generic comments likely to hold up for the long term; (3a) convert the campaign section to a shorter summary of the campaign article; (3b) do not synchronize it there, but retain a short lead as for the positions subarticle; and (4) do not set up either of the positions and campaign summary sections as templates (rather, the positions template can now be speedied).
• Combine two sections of Later Congressional into "1996 campaign controversy".
• The current version, retaining a few newsletter quotes in text and setting most in footnote, has not been seriously challenged, but there is also support for relegating all newsletter quotes to the footnote.
• Consensus prefers "ghostwriter", to which I contrarily say "boo".
• Abortion remains undecided per the latest discussion. Gloriamarie believes the present 3 clauses in lead, with or without FNs, are "too many specifics"; Photouploaded believes all 3 clauses and 3 FNs are necessary. I am temporarily accepting Photo's version (though I disagree with it) until consensus arises on this open question.
• En dashes in from-to dates are OK "once in a while" but not "by and large".
• Photo use: anyone interested in expanding on the current verified images has the burden of proof of freeness.

Accordingly, I will proceed to: add steering inline commments; police the lead against in-flux statistics; shorten the campaign section significantly, moving most deletions to the subarticle; and combine the 1996 sections. The remainder seem to be accepted by the editors' relative silence. If you disagree with my statement of consensus, please help establish greater consensus. John J. Bulten 17:09, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I edited Vidor's insertion of more quotes and sources to agree with the above. However, the footnote may now be too overtasked, and I'd like others to review it to be certain. Vidor's duplicated cites were excised.

It is also interesting that Vidor, in uncovering the weblink to the entire article (which is now available from the footnote), may have also unmasked the ghostwriter. The article's third paragraph is: "In San Francisco and perhaps other cities, says expert Burt Blumert, the rioting was led by red-flag carrying members of the Revolutionary Communist Party and the Workers World Party, both Trotskyite-Maoist. The police were allowed to intervene only when the rioters assaulted the famous Fairmont and Mark Hopkins hotels atop Nob Hill. A friend of Burt's, a jewelry store owner, had his store on Union Square looted by blacks, and when the police arrived in response to his frantic calls, their orders were to protect his life, but not to interfere with the rioting."

See Burton Blumert. Please note that (1) No other inside source besides Blumert and his friend is mentioned in the entire article, although the King arrest and riots are described in great detail. (2) Blumert's "expert"ise is unclassified; in context, the only real meaning that can be taken from this is "L.A. riot autodidact". (3) Blumert pegs the rioters as "Trotskyite-Maoist" party members without citing any evidence. (4) Blumert's friend's anecdote is unquestioned, even though the author is clearly relying on Blumert's hearsay description of it, and even though it alleges criminal complicity upon the cops; the friend is unnamed, unlike Blumert. (5) The article style compares favorably with articles like and . (6) Paul's contemporaneous excuse, "voters may not understand his 'tongue-in-cheek, academic' writings", applies perfectly to Blumert's admitted style but not so well to Paul's own "straight-talk" style. (7) Ghostwriters often tacitly identify themselves as the true author by stating their close friendship with the alleged author, and by citing themselves. (8) Paul's desire not to publicize remaining newsletters is also much clarified if he wishes to protect someone named once or more in the articles; whoever Paul is protecting, it is clear that Paul has chosen to take the rap for the other writer indefinitely. (9) Since Blumert was already an established inner-circle Ronpaulican in 1992-1994, he is perfectly poised to be the author. (10) If Blumert is not the author, because he is the source for the party IDs and the jewelry-store anecdote, he knows who is the author (or has it down to a short list if his anecdote was promiscuous). I will be sending an email to burtblumert@comcast.net. John J. Bulten 16:16, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't think I've "unmasked" anyone, as I think Paul's claim of a ghostwriter is an obvious lie. Also, the heading "1996 campaign controversy" is a fairly blatant attempt to hide Paul's alleged racist statements. Vidor 04:14, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Also, sending an e-mail to this Blumert fellow would be original research. Vidor 06:33, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Vidor, thank you for admitting your bias; per WP:BLP, I have added the word "alleged" to your statement. In controversies, WP:NPOV requires that each point of view be handled appropriately. The "obvious lie" POV is the minority view; Secretary Not Sure pointed out that it was chiefly held only by Democrats, while the majority of analysts have accepted Paul's description at face value. The proper WP approach is to state your concerns in Talk and reach agreement. Here are my concerns.

1. Since you feel your bias very strongly (I have bias too of course), you should be extra careful not to insert it into the article. Rather than insert the same material at the same length the third time, you should come to Talk and say something like "I think these two sentences need quoting at full length inline because"; this would also be appropriate under WP:BRD. You would also want to review the existing dialogue (see "Powwow" in archives, et al.). In fact, I initiated this dialogue for the exact reason that edits like yours would arise and it would be appropriate if we had other editors on the record to establish a clear agreement. But even as it stands, I still have no idea why you think your edits are not undue weight.
2. The section title was agreed upon by consensus. An episode of racist statements would traditionally be labeled "controversy" in any political article, unless the person is notable chiefly for taking race positions. Your proposed title was inappropriate, to be very mild. There were, of course, many nonrace accusations floating around during the campaign, as your sources reveal and as are mentioned in the See also link in this section, so limiting the section title to race would be inappropriate.
3. You deleted the quotes about nonblack races, which is undue weight, as if all the racist comments were against blacks. The nonblack quotes have been agreed upon since they were introduced.
4. You deleted the closeness of the Austin Chronicle report to the election; this removes the significant fact that it was a November surprise and gives greater credence to Morris than appropriate.
5. The consensus agreed that the quotes should be split between inline and footnote, and that they should be clauses instead of the full (vacuous) sentences. Everyone who has tried to extend the quotes at length has either been a sock or has accepted their reduction to clauses. Therefore promoting the quotes to both inline and full-sentence status as you did is undue weight according to consensus.
6. The consensus version I restored alludes to, by my count, 5 quotes inline and 9 in footnote (though that still seems excessive to me). Your version replaces the 9 in footnote with 2 at length inline. Given the other objections above, the only benefit that I could advocate for your version is that some of the old quotes may be subsumed by the 2 new quotes. To obtain that benefit without stepping on the concerns above, you could simply delete the quotes you think subsumed-- though not the nonblack quotes-- rather than promote your favored quotes as I described.
7. Finally, I don't believe you have reviewed WP:OR recently, because emailing someone is not OR. Using any reply as a source is OR. However, I have emailed him not for using his reply as content, but for the purpose of soliciting his help in outing the true author, because he can be expected to know who it is. If it is Paul as you say, then Blumert should encourage him to retract what would be a lie in 2001. If it is not Paul, then Blumert should encourage the true author to come forward, because Blumert clearly has an interest in Paul's success. Either way, the longer the author hides, the worse it may be potentially for Paul. But that is beside the point.

Now please respond with your concerns and without making libelous accusations, so that we can continue improving WP. John J. Bulten 15:51, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

(unindenting) First of all, I hope we both understand you cannot tell me what to do, so there is no need for statements like "please respond with your concerns and without making libelous accusations". We can dispense with that. That being understood, I will address your statements in turn. 1) The heading "1996 campaign controversy" is inaccurate. First, the racist statements in Paul's newsletter were printed long before 1996. Secondly, it seems an obvious attempt to hide the true nature of the controversy. "1996 campaign controversy" looks to me to be a deliberate attempt to conceal the nature. However, I don't feel like picking a fight over that. 2) I had no intention of deleting comments about non-black people. Feel free to put them back in if you like. 3) The timing of the Austin Chronicle article is completely irrelevant. These quotes were printed in Paul's newsletter many years before the 1996 election campaign. This is admitted by everyone and not in dispute. Since the article states specifically that this news story broke during the 1996 campaign, I fail to see what difference it makes if the story was published a day or a week or a month before the election. 4) You are making statments about "undue weight" and "consensus" as if they are decided canon law. It is my opinion that the article as I found it did not assign nearly enough weight. The article as I found it had no quotes at all. I put a few quotes in. You took those quotes out, then buried them in the footnotes. This looks to me to be an effort to hide 1992. It is bad enough that the subject heading gives no hint as to what the controversy is about. The quotes must be included in the body of the article to give the reader an idea of what the controversy actually is. The reader can then decide for himself what conclusion to draw, but he must have that information. 6) Similarly to #5, I think that the article as I left it contains the proper amount of quotes and information in the main text to give the reader a good idea of the issue at hand. 7) Your idea of e-mailing this person and asking him directly is most certainly original research, your assertion otherwise notwithstanding.

In closing I would like to say a couple of things. I could, if I'd chosen, included several more racist quotes from Paul's newsletter. There are certainly more to be had. The few I did put in gives the reader a good amount of info. Second, saying Paul is a liar is hardly "libel", at least under American law. I think Paul is a liar. I think his claim of a ghostwriter is an obvious lie, given that the Ron Paul Report was an eight-page newsletter printed under his name. It strains credulity well past the snapping point to believe that not only did Paul not write his own newsletter but, according to him, did not even read it. Additionally the fact that he has never in 11 years since named the person who did write the newsletter further strains his credibility. HOWEVER, I cannot prove that Paul is a liar. Nor is there any independent evidence that Paul is lying. Therefore I am willing to leave the article basically as it is, giving Paul's explanation without taking a definitive stance as to whether or not it is true. Vidor 22:08, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Vidor, I will respond after I can invent some rationale for assuming good faith with your edits, which I haven't succeeded in yet. John J. Bulten 16:46, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

I find that after your third insertion of the same contentious, unsourced material about a living person (including talk pages), I am pretty well allowed to assume bad faith (see WP:WARN and your talk page). However, considering your actions under WP:BRD instead, I find that I can avoid having to argue anything but 4-6 above, which are really the one question of what is proper weight or placement of this issue. As I've indicated, at Talk:Ron Paul/archive6#Powwow, the current editors were asked for consensus on exactly this question, and GloriaMarie was the only one who felt strongly enough to respond, though several others read the section. That indicates prior consensus that the proper weight was to quote clauses rather than full sentences, and to place the majority of the clauses in a footnote. Your complete argument for flouting that consensus consisted of your subjective feelings about proper weight (such as "looks to me to be an effort to hide"). Therefore, while I perform the cleanup this section desperately needs (much of it unrelated to our dispute), it would be helpful if you gave your objective reasons why we need to quote a self-admitted racist (whomever that racist may be) eight times in the main article (giving full sentences three times), and selecting two nonracist statements (re Clinton) and six statements that relate only to blacks, when the full body of quotes indicted other races as well. Since you do not like my saying "please do this", I will need to settle for what glimpses at consensus I can snatch from your comments. John J. Bulten 02:09, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

BTW, besides the color-blindness issue, it might also be argued that one should not concentrate on the "racial terrorism" article so far as to overweight the other articles (some nonracial) written by the same author-- especially so if one thinks the author is Paul, because then one has the full newsletter history to choose from; and that one should not overweight the non-1996 sources to obscure the fact that the controversy was largely limited to 1996 (meaning that IIRC no non-1996 source has ever taken your minority POV that Paul is obviously guilty of racism; a counterexample would be nice); and that one should not concentrate on the racism quotes controversy so far as to overweight the many other Paul-Morris controversies of that cycle, which related to many other issues and were mentioned by the Austin Chronicle. But those undue weight issues can be handled if they should arise. John J. Bulten 02:24, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, your assertion that the material is "unsourced" is false. It is sourced to the Austin Chronicle, to the Nizkor Project, and many other sources. Further, PAUL HIMSELF ADMITS that the quotations in question were in his newsletter. That is a fact. So your assertion that the quotes are "unsourced" is false. Secondly, I do not know who "the current editors" are. The "current editors" include every person who comes to this article and makes a change on it. Your statement implies that there are certain individuals, including yourself, whom you believe own this article. That is false. The "consensus" you refer to seems presently to be confined to just you, since you and I are the only people commenting on this page.

As for your further points, as I have written previously and in great detail, the racist quotes from the Ron Paul newsletter need to be quoted in the main text so that a reader may actually know what the controversy was about. The article as I found it, with the hopelessly vague formulation of "comments about race", left the reader with no detail and no information. Your version of the article not only hid Paul's comments from the reader, but it took as the gospel truth Paul's assertion that he was not the author of the quotes, despite Paul's failure to dissasociate himself from the comments for four years, despite the simple plain fact that they were published under his name, and despite the fact that 11 years later and counting he has failed to name the person who did write the story quoted in this newsletter.

In short, your version of the article not only omitted the heart of the controversy at hand, and buried it under a vague and misleading heading ("1996 campaign controversy" is hardly a good description), but took without question a pro-Paul POV. Again contrary to your assertions, I did not insert a POV into the article. I am content with the article as I last left it, as it did not say definitely either way whether Paul did or did not write the essay at hand. My version was more informative and better written. As such I will change it back again. You are free to take this to whatever higher authority you like. I'm confident that the better article will prevail. Vidor 04:01, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Though I decline to answer your personal attacks, I do not wish you to suppose they have no answer. The fact is, since Paul made his 2001 statement, your assertion that Paul wrote the 1992 quotes is unsourced and contentious, yet you inserted that assertion into the article and talk three times, and were warned each time. Now, as for the article, you like your version, but have given no quarter toward moving any of your choice quotes to the footnote, nor stripping any of them to clauses. I don't see you seeking to compromise on this issue. Since I don't see your answers to my questions seeking compromise, my only option which does not involve other editors appears to be to attempt various compromise versions to see what you may permit. If it should develop that you do not permit any edits that address my concerns, I would be disappointed. John J. Bulten 15:31, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I do assert that Paul wrote those quotes. However, that is irrelevant, since the article as I edited it last does not say definitively that Paul wrote those quotes, and I have no desire at this time to make it say so. So that objection can be dismissed. Your assertion that I have given no quarter is false, again. I have given quarter on the article heading, which has been changed from the heading I initially edited to, "Controversy over racist quotes", to your heading, which I believe is misleading and deceptive, but which, out of compromise, I am content to leave alone. I have also compromised on using the word 'wrote'. So that would be two important points I am willing to compromise on. What I am not willing to do is take the quotes out of the article as you apparently want very much to do. Taking the quotes out of the article leaves the reader uninformed and unaware of the nature of the "controversy". I believe the reader can read that paragraph, as I left it, and decide for himself if 1) the excerpts meet the definition of racism (I'd say certainly) and 2) whether or not Paul's explanation of a ghostwriter is credible. Vidor 21:26, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

In the past (months ago), I have argued for coverage of this controversy in the footnotes rather than in the body of the text. My point then was that using a paragraph (and sometimes as many as three) places undue weight on what is a somewhat notable controversy. I pointed to the example of Sen. Obama's financial dealings with Antonin Rezko and how those are covered entirely within the footnotes of the Obama article. Gloriamarie and others have worked on compromise text that I believe is now included in the body of the article, and I am comfortable with their work. That said, I think expansion of the comments in the article is a mistake and against consensus that has been built over the past several months. Jogurney 20:26, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

THANK YOU!! John J. Bulten 20:40, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I cannot begin to fathom how taking all context and information out of that paragraph is "due weight", and letting the reader know what the controversy is about is "undue weight". I would further note that the information that John J. Bulten is fighting so hard to keep out of this article is one single sentence. Vidor 04:21, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Excessive trivia

Skimming this article there's a lot of incidental information that's not encyclopedic - what he wore at his wedding, the books that he read? Details of his campaign and legislation specifics? For an article of 99KB this is stuff that should be stripped out - the first left in the biographical books it came from, the second either in the information about those events or removed completely if those articles wouldn't survive AFD. WP:SIZE recommends breaking things up at around 60KB, and a page where you go to read about who someone is and what their achievements are shouldn't be littered with minutiae, especially when it gets in the way of highlighting the achievements. This page is huge. The commented out note at the top of the article itself says there's a lot of people with this on their watchlist - while I'm wary of overhauling articles others here will know much more about, I really recommend that someone gives at least a good attempt at stripping out the trivia. --Firien 15:41, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

We're working on it. However, your first group is appropriate as being thoroughly biographical, especially the books that influenced his unique place in political philosophy, and it provides much human interest which this article was previously criticized for lacking. The second group is overdue for movement to other articles, particularly the campaign article and a new legislation article. If we simply cut every legislation reference to a single clause or sentence, and linked to a full section of the legislation article which described the bill as much as anyone wanted, it would do wonders for byte count. Should that article be called "Legislation of Ron Paul" or "Bills sponsored by Ron Paul", or "Legislative history of Ron Paul"? John J. Bulten 16:38, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I'll stand aside on human interest, because it sounds like I've come in late on that one; it seems a bit odd, but if it makes a Good Article it makes a Good Article. On the article separation - it looks like from other pages the general format is "{topic} policy of (person or group)", such as Foreign policy of the Clinton Administration or Domestic policy of the George W. Bush administration; others separate out the topic completely, such as Mayoralty of Rudy Giuliani or Premiership of Tony Blair, though I'll admit it took me a while to find pages where things were separated out. Those would suggest an article name of "Congressmanship of Ron Paul", (though I'm not sure whether that's a word... Congressional career perhaps?), and there's probably counterexamples. Setting precedents is nice though. I don't usually venture into political articles, especially those for different countries; my apologies if I'm bringing up the same old things over again. --Firien 18:20, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Senate career of Hillary Rodham Clinton would indicate "Congressional career of ..." as the best form. (I don't think there is word form for this equivalent to premiership/mayoralty/presidency/etc.) But I'd worry about its fate after the election. Paul will likely still be a representative in 2009, but with the presidential race over will anyone still care about what he does in Congress? Look at the history of Sponsorship of legislation by John Kerry: lots of edits up through the 2004 election, very few edits and no content updates since then, even though Kerry has stayed in the Senate. Wasted Time R 01:26, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Ron Paul cite question

In this video , does anyone have an idea, minute-wise, where he talks about using an excise tax and tariffs to fund the government? Brian Pearson 02:44, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't know why you're asking for someone else to listen through it find out, but I just did for you and it comes up around 17 minutes into the video. Operation Spooner 03:15, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I actually wasn't asking for anybody to listen for me, I was hoping someone already had a good idea where it was. I figured it could've been at the 60 minute point, or something. Thanks for the information, though, I do appreciate it. Brian Pearson 04:05, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

In reference 41, I believe that it is talking about an article dated 1997-2-10 and here is the link to it (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_n5_v13/ai_19092301 ), I am unsure of correct formating. So I am posting it to the discussion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.74.213.26 (talk) 05:18, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Incorrect "trial lawyer" reference

The reference to one of his opponents as a "trial lawyer" should be edited. The author/editor made the article link to "trial lawyer", which is only a redirect to "lawyer". This should be corrected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.225.125.70 (talk) 03:03, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Why? --Trovatore 03:06, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Link farm

I've just trimmed back the link farm under "External links". There were a number of blatant violations of WP:EL there, but I left a couple of dubious ones in deference to the judgment of the rest of you who edit this article. Please examine my edits, but don't put anything back lightly. C'mon: SEVEN "official pages" including his MySpace? An openly labelled link to a fundraising site? MULTIPLE collections of his speeches, tapes, etc., collected, maintained and updated by his supporters? WP, as they say, is not a directory; and this had clearly gotten out of hand. I don't monitor every candidate's article; but if this kind of thing is going on with any other candidate, we need to do the same, in the interest of NPOV and balance. --Orange Mike 14:41, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you! Brian Pearson 00:44, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

1996 campaign controversy should be changed to controversies?

1996 campaign controversy could be a sub-heading under controversies, but there have been a few controversies in Dr. Paul's career, and to lump them all under 1996 is disingenuous. Thoughts?Ballbright 17:20, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I have agreed with creating a new section called "Criticisms" which would include both traditional controversies and objections to his positions. It would ideally be about one sentence per issue, including the 1996 newsletter item, where the fuller discussion can be linked in. However, some minor criticisms would be better in the Positions article or in the Legislation section and would not need repeating in a Criticisms section. This talk topic would be an excellent place to start making a trial list prior to creating the section cold: go ahead. (In keeping with section-title neutrality, I have added "?" to your section title.) John J. Bulten 17:35, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with USER:John J. Bulten. I have no time to work on this now, but perhaps tonight a rough beginner list could begin to be produced and discussed?Ballbright 19:16, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree with the inclusion of a "criticism" or "controversy" section. This would be setting the article back and reduce the overall quality and readability of this article. I have no problem with integrating criticisms and controversies into the text of the article but am adamantly opposed to a "dumping ground" criticism or controversy section. Articles like this, ones that have many concerned editors, have enough hands on deck to integrate any notable controversies or criticisms. Turtlescrubber 00:03, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

There's no "criticism" or "controversy" in Giuliani's page, so why should there be one here? We all know Giuliani is a piece of dirt. He's trying to ride 9/11 to the White House. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.115.196.213 (talk) 01:47, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Welcome to Misplaced Pages! Please be advised that I find your statement non-neutral. It insults dirt. John J. Bulten (talk) 05:41, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

A criticism section is necessary. It is very POV to present something as fact, with out exploring the flip side of the coin. With respect to Guliani's page, if it doesn't have a criticism or controversies section, it should. The same goes for all issues or candidates, or entries that have criticisms or controversies levied against them. Now, those should not just be a laundry list of smears. -- Ballbright (talk) 20:45, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't make a blanket assessment like that: the Clinton editors decided her article would be better with controversies mentioned inline (I disagreed in that case); apparently Giuliani editors did the same. I will go with any arising consensus on this issue. My thinking was just that a controversy section would be notable for there being so little controversy in this case. In fact, you could probably even find a reliable source that says that (notably little controversy). See David Durbin's letter to the editor at American Daily. However, whatever we decide, we still need to make that list of controversies.... John J. Bulten (talk) 22:52, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I strongly recommend against separate controversy sections/articles named as such, both on articles about Republicans and Democrats - as I've said many times, they quickly become POV-dumping grounds for any real or imagined controversy, large or small. Integrate notable controversies into the articles, as we did here with the newsletter. Tvoz |talk 18:03, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

You may not know, John J., but the established project-wide consensus is very much against a "controversy" or "criticism" section. Be the subject John Edwards or Apple Inc., Tancredo or Microsoft, such sections attract nastiness, partisanship and POV-pushers on all sides. --Orange Mike 19:30, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm with Orangemike on this one. He seems unbiased because he trimmed the link farm but opposes a controversy. Unless all the '08 candidates have a "Controversy" section (because let's face it, all candidates always have some controvery), Ron Paul shouldn't have one. Apartcents (talk) 14:52, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Not synchronizing main and positions articles

OK, I have decided to give up on selling the obvious benefits of automating the synchronization I have espoused; I will settle for the obviously inferior method of permitting a fork between the positions summary in this article and the positions summary in the positions article. I am doing this on the following proviso: that the vast majority of footnotes in the main article be deleted since it is a summary and the footnotes are repeated in the positions article. Otherwise, the synchronization of the same 40+ footnotes in both articles would be ridiculous busywork. Therefore, when I next condense the summary here, and copy it to the positions article (reviewers rejected the two-sentence lead), besides moving the less notable information to that article, I will also move most footnotes. Though I'm disappointed in the WP audience in this respect, and a dismal response to an RFC on the question at WP:SUMMARY, it is no issue for me to bow for now. John J. Bulten (talk) 16:30, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I thought this was settled weeks ago. Anyway, I think removing the footnotes is going to be a very bad idea as we won't know what is sourced and what isn't. As this is one of the most heavily edited sections on this page, I believe that major problems will arise from the footnotes removal. There is no need to synchronize the footnotes between the two pages. I think it is best to just leave well enough alone as readers get no benefit from the synchronization or removal of the footnotes. Turtlescrubber (talk) 17:29, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

You nailed one of the problems-- this should not be a heavily edited section, because it's a summary. Anything new should consider going to the sub first; same reason the FNs should go to the sub. Anyone who wants the level of detail provided by the FNs should be in the sub anyway. Also a great bytesaver. If we trim this section and cull its FNs, it will become much less attractive to controversy-- this has, IMHO, already succeeded for the lead, which is very stable nowadays. John J. Bulten (talk) 23:19, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree, information should go to the sub first. However, I don't think the vast majority of people editing[REDACTED] understand how it should work. I also agree that the section should be reduced to the most important points. However, leaving the footnotes in is one way to reduce the editing of this section. People who hit and run this section don't seem to have the time to properly source their additions. But if you want to try the reduction with the removal of footnotes I would be okay with that. That is proper summary policy anyway. However, I see alot of reverting (of other editors) in our future. Turtlescrubber (talk) 00:16, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Responses from real editors to a deleted sockpuppet disruption

There was no "POV pushing." I did it to save space because I saw it used that way in another article. My bad. Averyisland (talk) 14:03, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

No problem Avery. That works well in dry science texts, but this article has been notable for attracting many sticklers for proper footnotes at great length. Thanks for the tip though! John J. Bulten (talk) 19:17, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for these insights, which are unusually keen for your third edit. I also disagree with a scrolling footnote box, which I think has been undone. I haven't yet heard the concept "POV because both text footnotes are controversial and no text footnotes are not". Both footnotes were developed by careful consensus, and were placed there as agreeable weighting. The pro-life FN is not embarrassing, and the newsletter FN is not any more embarrassing than what appears in the text. Please feel free to get specific. John J. Bulten (talk) 04:25, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

And y'know I forgot something. That "controversial" abortion footnote was restored to the main text long before you got here. Anything you want to tell us, E.Meany? John J. Bulten (talk) 15:20, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I really like your passive-aggressive way of calling E.Meany a sock. 199.246.40.54 (talk) 21:39, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Semi-Protection

If I'm reading it correctly, this page has been semi-protected since September. How would I go about being allowed to edit? — Apartcents — continues after insertion below

Wait four days and you can edit semiprotected articles. John J. Bulten (talk) 23:09, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

I wanted to edit the first part from:

"Philosophically, Paul has been called conservative, Constitutionalist, and libertarian. He advocates non-interventionist foreign policy, having voted against the Iraq War Resolution, but in favor of force against terrorists in Afghanistan. He favors withdrawal from the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and the United Nations (UN); supports free trade, rejecting NAFTA as "managed trade"; and opposes amnesty and birthright citizenship for illegal aliens."

To:

Ron Paul has been a conservative, a libertarian and a constitutionalist. He advocates non-interventionist foreign policy, having voted against the Iraq War Resolution, as well as previous military interventions such as the 1999 bombing of Serbia. He did, however, vote in favor of the use of force against terrorists in Afghanistan. He has also suggested issuing letters of marque against Osama bin Laden and members of Al-Qaeda. He favors withdrawal from the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and the United Nations (UN). He supports free trade but rejects NAFTA as "managed trade." He opposes amnesty for illegal immigration as well as birthright citizenship.

Basically, I think libertarian has precedence over 'Constitutionalist.' I think adding a bit of history by including the Congressman's previous opposition to military intervention (sourcing his book "Freedom Under Siege" we could take it all the way back to the bombing of Libya in the 1980s) adds more historical perspective. He has suggested the use of letters of marque on the campaign trail, which I think is worth mentioning. I separated the international organizations, trade and immigration points because they're not so related as to be crammed into one sentence. And I restructured the way the immigration line runs to make it more clear. I also believe the term 'illegal aliens' is not NPOV and 'illegal immigration' is more neutral. Let me know what you think. Apartcents (talk) 15:03, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

I'll make the changes I think will stand scrutiny. However:

• Generally, don't start with the leads: start by editing the positions, campaign, or legislation articles first, then their summaries, and then you might have consensus to add weight to the lead.
• Paul is known as 100% Constitutionalist, but he has numerous differences with many Libertarians.
• You'll have much more leeway to make the Serbia change and related noninterventionism to Political positions of Ron Paul, which is not semiprotected.
• Dunno if marque is notable but will look at promoting it.
• Per your talk page, I've corrected 4 spelling errors above. :D See Talk History for details. John J. Bulten (talk) 23:09, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Hah, so typical of me to be high-and-mighty on spelling and grammar and then foul up the first thing I touch. I will peruse the Political Positions page and see if there's anything worth to add or expand on. Thanks for your help! Apartcents (talk) 00:50, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Sanctity of Life Act mis-represented

I hit up Foofighter20x with this message so hopefully he'll go ahead and revert his change, since I am not allowed to do it, but he changed the wording on the SoLA to say it removed abortion from federal jurisdiction when it actually did much more than that. His explanation in edit summary was that resolutions, sense of the congress and declarations are non-binding, but the Sanctity of Life Act (HR 776) sought to revise US Code. The whole bill can be found here: http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h109-776. Apartcents (talk) 21:41, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, fixed. John J. Bulten (talk) 23:48, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Civil Rights

Civil liberties concerns have led him to oppose the Patriot Act, a national ID card, federal government use of torture, domestic surveillance, presidential autonomy, and the draft.

This line really should read civil liberties for white men, anyone who opposed the civil rights act and has no regard for women (ie abortion, approval of date rape drugs) should not get any civil liberties credit here.

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