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See Archive for earlier discussions on this topic

2008 election summary

I think this article would benefit from a more in-depth summary than it currently has. This article has a lot of subpages (great) but lacks general content because of all these subpages (not so great). A bit of expansion (not too much) is probably in order. Turtlescrubber 13:32, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

The tag and picture also look funny on such a stubby section. Turtlescrubber 13:39, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Wedding

There is some information on who attended the wedding of the Romneys. I'm not sure how relevant this information is to the overall article on Mitt Romney. I think it should be deleted, but I wanted to discuss it on the talk page first. Alanraywiki 14:36, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I think the basic fact is interesting, but agree it's too detailed. This had been bugging me too, see what you think about my edit of the paragraph. Pro crast in a tor 19:51, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Your changes make it look much better and much less complex. I still am not convinced that it is notable because that situation is not that unusual (at least among LDS). The wedding ceremony is generally small and short, but the reception that everyone attends is the larger, more social event. (Disclosure: I was in that situation when I got married and know others whose families could not attend the actual ceremonies.) In any case, if we want to keep it in, I'd go with your version. Alanraywiki 21:11, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, it's not unusual amongst LDS, but I think the two ceremonies is of interest to most people, being unfamiliar with LDS. If a celebrity had a small private ceremony as well as a large public gathering, I think that might be of note, too(though in the briefest of words). It also reverses the norm: usually it's a private legal wedding, and a large public reception. In this case, it's a large civil ceremony, and a smaller unofficial (from a legal standpoint) wedding. Also, many bios have a short description of weddings unless they've had a number of them. I'm not Mormon, but I lived in Salt Lake for a while, and finding out that I couldn't enter the temple was rather surprising at the time. Pro crast in a tor 21:39, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

No, it's not the reverse. The temple ceremony is the legal wedding (at least in most states, and definitely in Utah), and the very rarely do active LDS have a large civil ceremony (most have a large reception or ring ceremony). Joseph Antley 07:06, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

We're down to a single sentence about the civil ceremony and wedding, which I think is about right. If you want to see other one-sentence descriptions, google "site:wikipedia.org married biography ceremony", which returns dozens of examples (possibly hundreds, but I didn't look that far). Pro crast in a tor 08:54, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Signature

Barak Obama's page has a "signature". It is a featured page for it's high quality. I think we should do some things on Romney's page that are done on that page...

http://en.wikipedia.org/Barak_Obama

I found an electronic copy of Romney's signature here and uploaded it here:

http://myclob.pbwiki.com/f/romneysig.jpg

Can someone who knows how to upload images, upload this and make the Romney page look like Barak's page?

http://myclob.pbwiki.com/f/romneysig.jpg

I've tried doing stuff like this before, but haven't been able to figure it out...71.143.235.250 20:43, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

done, but do you know where you got it and do you have permission? Hjghassell 00:35, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

What happened to Ann Romney's page?

Why does it re-direct you to Mitt's page? She used to have a page of her own.myclob 22:55, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Looks like it got deleted for copyrght violation, I made a new stub in its place but it needs more work. Pro crast in a tor 23:37, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Does Ann Romney really deserve her own article? Joseph Antley 00:23, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I believe so, as a candidate's wife in the news, as well as a possible future First Lady. I'll certainly agree that there doesn't appear to be anything in her biography that is notable under the Misplaced Pages criteria, but the hundreds of newspaper articles mentioning her in connection with her husband tip the balance IMHO. Pro crast in a tor 04:42, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, I don't think any of the other candidate's wives are being mentioned. But if there's concensus, I'm perfectly fine with there being an Ann Romney article. Joseph Antley 20:42, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Got to disagree with you there, Elizabeth Edwards has been in the news a lot, Michelle Obama and Judith Giuliani have pages, and of course Tipper Gore and Bill Clinton have Wiki entries. Pro crast in a tor 03:55, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Alright, I stand corrected. =p Joseph Antley 02:04, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Fix (vandalized?) spelling

Near the top of the main article for "Mitt Romney," someone has replaced "Mormons" with "Morons." I cannot fix it. I hope that someone else will. I ask this out of simple courtesy, even though I am not a Romney supporter and definitely not a Mormon. Thank you.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.189.36.224 (talk • contribs) 22:47, August 25, 2007 (UTC)

Romney flip flopping

Correct me if I am wrong, but shouldn't there a section in the article about how has changed positions repeatedly over the last 2 decades? The man has repeatedly denied that in the past he was prochoice, but a simple search on youtube completely discredits that. I think it should be mentioned in the article that he has repeatedly denied documented proof of his former positions. I'm pretty sure it would be POV to do anything but that, the article is about a politician, it is paramount to make mention of such apparent and rampant lying.--165.91.189.172 15:44, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

No, there shouldn't be. And FYI, Romney has admitted several times that he was formally pro-choice. If you're going to say ignorant things like he has "repeatedly denied" it, then you need to back it up with sources. Joseph Antley 01:33, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

No, sorry Joseph but you're wrong. The article DEFINITELY needs to mention Romney's flip flopping, although not in that language. Romney has a very casual relationship with political principles. Obviously the article wants to remain neutral in tone but doing so should not be at the expense of accuracy. The OP is absolutely right that Romney HAS repeatedly denied and tried to obfuscate his changing political views. While there are charitable explanations for Romney's behavior there are also very critical ones and the accusation of flip flopping is one of the most prominent ones against Romney and the most persistent part of his political image and career. I would suggest that the "Political views" section be re-written to feature prominently the accusation of flip flopping and Romney's justification of it. I also think that all of the statements of position should be rewritten to make it clear that the stated positions are what Romney CLAIMS to believe NOW, as well as including past statements of his which claim different positions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.218.221.152 (talk) 04:20, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Do you mean formerly? even though he's still a flip-flopper. But it shouldn't get its own section. 72.206.97.34 05:05, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Have to make a correction. Romney has never admited to being "formally pro-choice". He admited to doing exactly what he said he would do. When he ran for governor he said that he was personally pro-life, but that he believed in the rule of law, that Massachusetts had made up his mind, and he promiced that he would not expand or reduce a woman's right to choose in Massachusetts". He kept that promice, and when two bills came to his desk that would have greatly expanded abortion rights, he vetoed them. He admits to being "effectivly pro-life" because he would not change the "pro life" laws in Massachusetts. No one believed him. They said he was liying. They said that he was a Mormon, and that he was pro-life. His apponent tried to scare wemon in Massachusetts, that Romney wasn't going to keep the laws the way they were. That is when Romney had to make his point of why he would not change the laws, and you can see those videos of Romney, but no one cares about the context of those videos... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.143.239.170 (talk) 11:47, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Proposed edits to the Business Career section

Currently, the Business Career section states:

Romney has been a target of criticism for several transactions made while running Bain Capital. Dade Behring and KB Toys both paid over $100 million USD fees to Bain Capital after being acquired, and subsequently went into bankruptcy, causing thousands of layoffs. Warren Buffett has derided private equity firms as “deal flippers” who do little to increase the real value of their targets, profiting from rising prices driven in part by their own deals and by charging their acquisitions “fees, fees, fees.”

The cited article itself states that the Dade Behring deal was entered into as Romney was leaving Bain in 1999 and that the KB Toys deal was two years after Romney left. Yet this paragraph implies Romney was running Bain Capital when these transactions were made. Not only was Romney not running Bain when these two deals were made, but the article also quotes Romney explicitly saying he wasn't involved in either transaction. Fees charged by Bain and the transactions Romney was involved in, and perhaps transactions Bain employees were involved in while Romney was running Bain but in which Romney was not involved, are open to scrutiny. But this paragraph implies Romney had a much greater connection to these deals than he actually had.

As for the Warren Buffett comment, it doesn't seem NPOV to me. Buffett's opinion was not specifically directed at Romney or at Bain Capital. An investor's opinion about a particular investment strategy doesn't fit well in an encyclopedia article about Romney.

I will remove this paragraph unless there is objection. Like I said, facts that have to do with how he ran the business or what the business did when he ran it are reasonable for this article, but this is too disconnected from Romney and opinionated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.251.236.130 (talk) 23:32, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

Making this article protected.

This article needs immediate protection status, due to the importance of this article, and how it is a presidential candidate, it should be blocked as Sen. Clinton's is. This page has been subject to many offensive acts of vandalism, and should be protected immediately. I'm sorry I'm a new Wikipedian, so sorry for mistake in this comment.

The daily updates and recitation of meaningless polls are frivolous. This section used to be decent. It should recite some facts such as when and how he got in the race and some big picture things (like he's leading in the early primary states Iowa and NH, but is trailing nationally). Looks like Ron Paul people have been vandalizing again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.251.236.130 (talk) 23:51, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

What ever happened to the protection status? Who can do it? Oxfordden

Polygamist geneology

Hi User:Leon7, you said in an edit summary: "Let's be fair; either you add that his religion banned polygamy 100+ years ago, or you dissassociate the 2 words, like this." I think that "polygamist mormon" is a more apt term in this situation than just "polygamists". The reason for their polygamy was deeply rooted in their faith: see Polygamy#Mormonism. I've added back in "mormons" and some context about the situation.

In any case, are we agreed that this is notable? I think it is, and it's not just "look at the funny mormons". His family history back 3 generations (father, grandfather, and great-grandfather) is tied to northern Mexico, the birthplace of his father. Any other opinions? Pro crast in a tor 06:28, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, not to be protectionist of Romney, but when you go to Barack Obama, you are not treated with the dispute that he may or may not have been taught fundamentalist Islam in a maddrasa. So what if Romney's forefathers were polygamists? That doesn't affect how he views himself or how he conducts himself, unless he demonstrates otherwise. That's akin to someone ginning up that I'm a descendant of Jefferson Davis. Unless Mitt himself believes in polygamy, or tries to defend it, it shouldn't matter.Shrekums 06:42, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't think there's any doubt that Mitt's father, grandfather, and great-grandfather lived in Mexico for 20 years (except his father, who was born and moved when he was 5), making it quite unlike the Barack Obama dispute you mention.Pro crast in a tor 21:14, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Do all other presidential candidate pages include lineage from their great grandfathers, or go back 124 years? This seems irrelevant. -- 14 September 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.211.33.62 (talk) 03:24, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

It is customary to mention something about the person's father and/or mother. Earlier, the page just said that his father was "Mexican-born", and many people (myself included) thought this looked like it was designed to incite immigration tensions. Now it includes some context, which obviously includes his grandfather (the father of his Mexican-born father), but his great-grandfather's polygamy is actually the reason they both moved to Mexico. So, yes, in this case, I do think you have to go back 3 generations to give reasonable context to the situation.Pro crast in a tor 05:17, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I think it seems out-of-place, myself, and highly irregular. If anything must be said about Romney's distant ancestors, keep it as simple as possible, something like "where his great grandfather had moved". Personally, I don't think it should be included at all. 75.14.215.62 19:08, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Mitt's Father

It's stated that his father ran for president and lost to Richard Nixon. It's also stated that his father was born in Mexico. If he was not a natural-born American citizen how could he run for president?

Also, I noticed a discussion note about fairness regarding the way his polygamist great grandparents are described...The truth is not fair, politically correct, or slanted; it's just the truth.

H. Simon, see George W. Romney#Natural born citizen? Sbowers3 13:56, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

There was debate about whether his dad was eligible for the presidency. He did have two American parents, but was just born out of the country, so he was likely American enough to be eligible. It's a gray area that the courts might have needed to get involved in had he won. This is certainly too much detail for Mitt's page, though.

The question about Romney's family history is not whether it's true or false, but whether it is notable. Since that paragraph has been up the past week or so, I'm more sure that it's notable. It explains why the past 3 generations of his family (father, grandfather, great-grandfather) were in Mexico for 20-odd years, and why his dad was born there. If you were to say exactly one thing about his family history (which is what we are doing), this is what you'd say, so I'm quite convinced of it's notability at this point. Pro crast in a tor 20:07, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

"American enough"?? Folks, the US Constitution guarantees that a baby born to an American citizen, regardless of where the parents live or where the child is born, is entitled to full American citizenship. George Romney's parents retained their American citizenship - and their citizenship guaranteed George his citizenship. It is not a gray area - George was completely eligible to run for the Presidency and he did. He dropped out because of his infamous comment that he had been "brainwashed" by the US military when he visited Vietnam - not because of his place of birth, or his Mormon religion, or his grandfather's polygamous life. By the way, John McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone, and he too is eligible. Tvoz |talk 02:57, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Semi-protection

I requested semi-protection on WP:RFPP because the large number of anonymous IP vandals over the past few days & weeks. This means only registered users may now edit the page. If any IP users want to change the page, please either sign up for a free Misplaced Pages account, or post your changes here on the talk page and someone will add them for you. Hopefully we'll be able to spend more time on editing than reverting now. Pro crast in a tor 21:09, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Mention of counterterrorism advisor on campaign staff

Re Romney's 2008 presidential campaign, his appointment of Cofer Black as Senior Adviser for counterterrorism and national security issues. (see Romney's press release for Apr 26, 2007 ) I see this as an important event on the timeline of Romney's campaign. Mention will also back up his strong position on terrorism. Obviously, I'm not authorized to edit the Romney page, I understand the sensitivity of the situation. I'll leave it for you to decide.

Rawkcuf. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rawkcuf (talk • contribs) 16:26, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, you should be able to make changes yourself, as it's just semi-protection that just requires having an account (which you do).

That said, I don't think this is a notable event. I looked at the Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton pages, and they have no mention of their advisers. My guess is that, if you open the door to one, you'll be opening the door to all of them, and you'll have a long list of rather useless information compared to stuff like, say, a biography. You might try adding it to Mitt Romney presidential campaign, 2008, but even there, the corresponding pages of the candidates listed above have no mentions of advisers.Pro crast in a tor 17:26, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Pro crast, I agree, many sites don't mention advisors, or mention them as part of the 'campaign development'(ie.Giuliani.) McCain only mentions the staff that was let go. Clinton mentions staff, Edwards and Thompson are quite detailed with a short mention of past activities for each, (mostly pr/strategy related) etc. My hope is that there would be more uniformity between articles. My feelings are that with recent developments as they have played out in the general consiousness, (ie: Carl Rove, Michael Brown, Harriet Meyers etc.) there is a lot more concern raised over a candidate's choice of advisors (possible future cabinet?) The choice of campaign staff illuminates the candidate's ability to judge character. I think that the main difference between most campaign staffs for most campaigns, and this particular staff member, is that he (Cofer Black) is such a prominent counterterrorism heavy. He was director of the CIA's Counterterrorism Center, and vice chairman for Blackwater USA. I've looked at all the other staffmembers of all the other campaigns, and I've never seen such a heavy hitter. To me it stands out as quite significant. I'm big on consensus, and would like input before making any changes, especially to a site like this where there seems to be a lot of heat. Thanks, ----Rawkcuf.

I still don't think it's appropriate for this page. The main articles for John Edwards and Fred Thompson don't mention their campaign staff, it's their "presidential campaign 2008" pages. Again, you might try adding it to Mitt Romney presidential campaign, 2008, it sounds appropriate for there, but you'll likely have to also add his campaign manager and perhaps one or two other campaign staff members to make for a good paragraph. Good luck, Pro crast in a tor 07:23, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your input Procrastinator. While running the risk of appearing overly insistent, I think that recent events have only made the issue more important. The context I see this in, is something like the following. Hillary Clinton has designated Madeline Albright for her campaign advisor on foreign policy. If it came to light that the Council of Women World Leaders, that Albright is chairing, was responsible for the murder of 20 people, that would be significant. I see Cofer Black/Mitt Romney in those terms. I can think of no one with a more major profile than Cofer Black when it comes to counter terrorism, and think that it is significant enough to warrant mention in the third paragraph (dealing with the Iraq war) of the section on Political Positions as evidence of Mitt Romney's strong position. I'm also reminded of the top article for the New York Times of Sept. the 27th (as follows ) http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/27/world/middleeast/27contractor.html In the 6th to the last paragraph, it mentions how Erik Prince, (CEO of Blackwater)in an effort to strengthen his connection to government, hired Cofer Black, head of the Counterterrorism department at the CIA, to be his vice chairman at Blackwater. It then mentions in the next sentence that Black is Romney's advisor on national security issues. My first mention of Cofer Black, and Blackwater on this page was Sept 17th, when, I admit, it was still a non-issue. From most of your responses, the verdict was that it was not particularly noteworthy at the time. But now Blackwater is all over the news, and since Mitt Romney's security advisor is Blackwater's vice chairman, and the New York Times has decided to (gratuitously) include this fact in an article on civilian deaths in Iraq, I think this entry should reflect that. Rawkcuf 15:54, 28 September 2007 (UTC)Rawkcuf

I agree with Pro crast in a tor on this one. I know the guy is running for President, but this is supposed to be a bio page. This info belongs on his campaign page. Notmyrealname 16:49, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Polygamist Great-Grandparents?

Does this really belong here? I removed that paragraph but someone reversed my edits. I suspect that this family tree info was added by the vandals because it's clearly an instance of POV pushing. I'm sure that if we go back far enough we can find some of his ancestors who were slave owners, etc.. and this applies to everyone. This info should be removed. This is a lame attempt to incite bigotry against mormons. --JGoldwater 00:40, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree. It's enough to note that he is a Mormon. Digging up dirt on his grandpa seems like a reach. --StrumTurner 01:25, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

The point of the paragraph was to illustrate why his family tree going back three generations was in Mexico. Earlier versions just had "Romney's father was born in Mexico", which didn't really give any context. I think it's biographically quite relevant that his father, grandfather, and great-grandfather all spent significant time in northern Mexico, though, of course, and the outlawing of polygamy in the US is the reason they were there. In any case, I agree there was too much talk about his great-grandparents, I removed the mention about his 5th wife. Pro crast in a tor 07:36, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Look, maybe you should consider creating a separate article about his great grandfather. The actions of his ancestors centuries ago do not belong in the third paragraph of his biography. This is a selective presentation of facts to push a POV. So here is the deal. I will remove the info about his great grand father and if too many people object, I offer as a compromise the inclusion of the contributions of his great-great-grandfather Carl Wilcken during the civil war and the work of his father as head of the Automotive Council for War Production during the second world war. --JGoldwater 14:19, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I think that this info should be mentioned somewhere in the article, especially considering the fact that Romney's father was born in Mexico. However, it doesn't really fit in the bio section. Maybe we should have a family history section as JGoldwater suggests? Turtlescrubber 14:47, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

If you agree then why did you put it back on? Any info about his great grandparents does not belong in a 3 paragraph bio of Mitt Romney. I'll add some more info later about Mitt Romney which is what this section is about. Maybe the two of you can start a project to trace back his family tree but this certainly does not belong here.--JGoldwater 15:04, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Agree with what? Don't put words into my mouth. I never said that I agree with you. It certainly belongs in the article, maybe we should keep it in the bio? Turtlescrubber 15:05, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

You wrote "it doesn't really fit in the bio section" then you added it back TO THE BIO SECTION. Look, I don't think you have a case here. This info does not belong in this section and any impartial observer will agree. When I add more bio information about Mitt Romney I'll remove the 19th century info from this section again. If this is really important to you we'll have to call in a mediator. --JGoldwater 15:30, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

OH, NO! You caught me REDHANDED leaving it in the article but DISCUSSING its proper place. Heavens to Betsy, I should die of shame. Turtlescrubber 21:49, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Mitt Romney's family history of polygamy has been widely reported and documented by reliable sources throughout the political spectrum (ABC News, Boston Globe Reuters Boston Herald, The National Review, Christian Century, to name just a few) . His great grandfather was also a major figure in Mormon history. Mitt's father was born in Mexico as a direct consequence. Mitt Romney has commented publicly on it, and has made "traditional marriage" part of his campaign. It is reliably sourced and significant enough to merit a mention in this biography. WP:BLP is clear that you can't delete what some view as negative information if it is accurate and reliably sourced.Notmyrealname 15:33, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't doubt the veracity of the info. My only point is that it does not belong in the bio section. As I mentioned before, there is also well sourced info about his great-great-grandfather Carl Wilcken during the civil war but I'm not including it here. This is a section about the biography of Mitt Romney, not the biography of his 19th century ancestors.--JGoldwater 15:44, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

With a one-minute Google search I just posted links for half a dozen major news organizations (including those on the right) that have posted stories on this recently. He even discussed it during his 60 Minutes interview. That is more than sufficient for relevancy. I suggest bringing it to the BLP Noticeboard to bring more editors to weigh in on this.Notmyrealname 15:52, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with JGoldwater. The information may be interesting as trivia, but really is not relevant to a bio about Mitt Romney himself. Most other articles, particularly of those involved in politics, do not go that far back in the family tree. Alanraywiki 16:05, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but the other candidates don't have their family tree discussed in all the major news outlets and speak about them on 60 Minutes.Notmyrealname 16:10, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Look, I checked your sources and they all trace back to one AP article that talks about his great-grandfather's five wives. You posted links to blogs, etc.. that quote that one article. If you want to include this, the appropriate way to do it is to create a separate page about his great-grandfather, include this info there and then link that page to this one. This is how the Ann Romney MS thing was handled. It makes no sense to talk about his great-grandfather's trip to Mexico on the third paragraph of Romney's bio. There are more important things that I will include later and this is just not relevant. --JGoldwater 19:21, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, this shows that the story was widely considered to be important. But not all of the links were connected to the AP story. The Boston Globe Boston Globe] story was much more in depth and involved original reporting. The Salt Lake Tribune posted a story on this a year earlier but removed it from its archives (see this retrieved version). Then there is the 60 Minutes interview where Romney discuss it. There is also a Slate article that discusses the issue as it relates to Romney politically, cites his jokes about it, and predates the AP article by about a year. Notmyrealname 19:46, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Fine. I know the story is true but I don't think it's relevant because Romney wasn't alive at the time. So Romney can't be in favor of traditional marriage because his great-grandfather, whom he never met, was a polygamist? So if someone's ancestor was a slave owner they can't be in favor of civil rights? There are many stories out there. Not all of them should be included just because they are out there.--JGoldwater 19:56, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Notmyrealname here - this is well sourced information and more cited than a lot of other things in this article - to leave it out suggests sanitizing, and we wouldn't want to do that. Tvoz |talk 16:30, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I just posted a note on the WP:BLPN here.Notmyrealname 16:34, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

The reason for inclusion of the polygamy is for telling the story behind why his family, going back three generations, was in northern Mexico for a significant period of time. You can't tell that story without mentioning polygamy. If you just say his dad was born in Mexico and moved to Idaho in 1912, it implies his family emigrated at that time, which is obviously not the case. Pro crast in a tor 18:10, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

But should that story really be told here? Are we including the story of everyone's ancestors on their biographies? If you are bringing this up as a way to justify his father being born in Mexico, maybe you should include this on his father's page here. Biography means story of life. Therefore anything that happened before the person in question was born is irrelevant. --JGoldwater 19:47, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I think it's in the same line of thought that led to including Barak Obama's ancestral relationship to Jefferson Davis. As the Boston Globe story shows, this resulted in the creation of a lot of Romneys in the world and continues to be an issue that Mitt has to contend with politically. Notmyrealname 19:58, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

The "story of life" includes your parents, and I disagree with the assertion that anything that happens before you were born is irrelevant (as do hundreds of other Misplaced Pages articles). Many people consider parental ancestry to be quite notable, and given the extensive press coverage, this is notable by Misplaced Pages criteria. Not as determined by us, or what we think, but by what the professional press thinks: see WP:Notability. Finally, as pointed out, Barack Obama includes two sentences about his ancestors, as does Hillary Clinton, and Rudy Giuliani goes back two generations to mention that his grandparents were Italian immigrants. The other 3 top 2008 presidential contenders mention ancestry beyond parents, so I don't believe we are giving this issue undue weight with two sentences. Pro crast in a tor 21:04, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

This was an important point in Romney's father's presidential campaign. Mitt's father George was born in a polygamous colony in Mexico where his parents had fled to avoid polygamy charges in the United States. If this is an important issue in Mitt's father's presidential hopes, then it should be an important issue in Mitt's presidential hopes. Corvus cornix 23:38, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Definitely important. This is the man's history, the reason why he holds the views he does. Should be highlighted in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Whitemensburden (talk • contribs) 17:22, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I also question the relevance of the section in question. If Romney's father was born in Mexico does that make Romney a 2nd generation immigrant? How was George Romney able to run for president if he was a non-native born US citizen? I'm not seeing the point of this section as it is written now. Romney's view are obviously not based on this as he holds a strict traditional view on marriage and families. Furthermore, I don't think we need to include it just because the sensationalist media thinks it is important. It should be rewritten. --Tripzero (talk) 16:46, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

As written that segment is directly from George Romney's bio, which was written up for Misplaced Pages before anyone knew Mitt Romney was running for President. Therefore it is not POV pushing, it is fact. Besides, I doubt anyone will go OMG his great-grandparents were Mormons so I'm not voting for him. Those kind of people are bigots and its enough that he's a Mormon for them to ignorantly dismiss him. Misplaced Pages is a place for facts, not campaign material. Apartcents (talk) 22:19, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Biography

There are a number of facts presented on the first paragraphs without source and otherwise irrelevant. Here is a list:

1-Ann was raised Episcopalian (no source)

2-Ann was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis in 1998 (Not part of Romney's bio. Redundant info already linked )

3-LDS are commonly known as mormons (Not part of Romney's bio either. Info already linked )

--JGoldwater 14:57, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I just sourced 1. I agree that 2 could be removed. 3 is helpful information to the average reader (there is a policy somewhere about the usefulness of stating the obvious). Notmyrealname 15:50, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

1 is relevant, 2 should be removed, and 3 is helpful to common readers, and can be proven via wikilinks. The Evil Spartan 16:47, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, 1 is relevant, 2 could be removed (it's left over from when Ann Romney didn't have a wiki article of her own), if she were handicapped as a result I think it should be included but perhaps not now, and 3 is useful to the average reader as the 11-syllable "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" is rarely used, and almost all the media references use "Mormon". Pro crast in a tor 18:19, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I just removed #2.Notmyrealname 18:41, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Bain Capital

How do you determine whether Bain Capital is a "private equity firm" or a "venture capital firm?" It provided startup money to Staples. Isn't that what VC firms do? Are there rigid definitions for these things? Notmyrealname 20:14, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm no expert, but venture capital companies usually provide money for starting companies, and private equity firms buy up portions of existing companies. Bain generally engaged in the latter, with huge investments in existing companies, rather than <$10M investments in start-up companies. Staples is a special case, as it was one of their first investments, but even Staples existed prior to Bain's investment. Here's some . Romney has been clouding the issue by calling Bain a "venture capital" company, but technically, it is and was a private equity firm, and they are described as such on Bain's wikipedia article. Pro crast in a tor 21:44, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Pro-life

In the 2002 Massachusetts gubernatorial campaign, he was endorsed by the Republicans for Choice coalition. In a 15 March 2007 interview with Larry King, Romney explained that while governor he adapted his political position on abortion during a 9 November 2004 meeting with an embryonic stem cell researcher, where they discussed cloning human embryos for the purpose of harvesting stem cells. Though there are discrepancies about what was talked about at the Harvard meeting, Romney soon sought out other pro-life scientists to learn more about the issue. By late 2004 or early 2005, Romney had fully rejected his former pro-choice position and, since then, has firmly opposed stem-cell research and abortion in all cases that do not include incest or rape or that threaten the life of the mother

Is it true that he's basically said he developed his pro-life position because he doesn't agree with cloning human embryos for the purpose of harvesting stem cells and that he claims he consulted pro-life scientists but didn't give either the people involved in stem cell research or pro-choice scientists the chance to respond? This is what the above implies Nil Einne 12:43, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually I understand better his (rather bizzare) claim/view now after reading the sub article. I still think it needs to be reworked though since currently the above is what it implies IMHO. Nil Einne 12:50, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Do the Math

A claim that says 70% of Massachusetts residents viewed him "fair to poor" links as its source a site that says that 43% view him favorably. The math doesn't add up. While it's clear there's a dedicated cabal of people ready to downplay every last thing about the man in this incredibly POV article, you guys should at least limit your lies to things where the links don't refute your claims.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.192.184.99 (talk • contribs) 17:58, October 4, 2007 (UTC)

I think it says a lot about the state of math literacy in Massachusetts. Notmyrealname 21:26, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Mormon context

Interesting this article puts up high that Mitt is Mormon, yet the article on Harry Reid doesn't mention at all that Reid is Mormon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kidshare (talk • contribs) 00:15, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps it was altered at the time you accessed it, but it is in the opening paragraph to Reid's article. WTStoffs 04:53, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Same Sex Marriage

I removed the line primarily because it is bad writing. As a reader I don't want someone to tell me he was a lifelong opponent of same sex marriage, I want to read the information myself and draw my own conclusions. It prolongs the article and takes away from the article these types of unnecessary sentences.

The article contradicts the statement. If he was a lifelong opponent of gay marriage why did he say in 1994 that, "We must make equality for gays and lesbians a mainstream concern." ? As for civil unions, they are a legal recognition of marriage and its debatable that they are different, as civil unions extend the same state-recognized rights to gays. Can you explain to me how they are different?

Jeremy221 00:39, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

This position is also not supported by his record. Romney was, and I would guess still is, a strong supporter of federalization of marriage and family law, which could only be accomplished by reclassifying it from civil law to social policy. It was the difference in constitutional requirements for social policy that led directly to the state court's mandate for acceptance of same-sex marriage. Although no furthher decisions have yet been made, social policy rules (basically equal protection under law only), would support equal recognition of polygamy and other preferences. (One researcher in The Neatherlands has already suggested that robot-human marriages will be legal in Mass. by 2050. I don't know if that will happen but he was right in selecting Mass. as having the legal precedent for it.) Rogerfgay 08:58, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Mitt Romney campaigned as gay-friendly, but the truth of the matter was that he proved to be anything but, abolishing funding for the Governor's Commission on Hate Crimes, for one thing. You can look it up.Mister Joy Boy (talk) 06:10, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

too much religion

When you "google" Mitt Romney his wikipedia article is the 2nd thing that comes up. As such it gets thousands of hits a day. I started supporting Mitt Romney, by reading his Misplaced Pages article. When I first read it, it sounded like a 3rd grader had written it. All it focused on was his religion. I tried cleaning it up. I fixed some spelling mistakes, and stuff like that. I tried to make the formating better. If you go to the top right hand corner of Barak Obama's article, you will see a little star that indicates that it is a "featured article". This means that it meets high standards of professionalism. I tried submitting the Romney article, but it is severely lacking. Here are some examples: His biography which is only one paragraph mentions his religion 6 times. It has the word "polygamy" twice. It says "he attends a temple regularly. As such, he doesn't drink or smoke. he attends a temple regularly. As such, he doesn't drink or smoke." None of the other articles about any of he presidential candidates mentions weird actions of their ancestors. Nothing in Bill Clinton's history about his Grandfather holding slaves. But somehow within something that tries to be professional, non-biased, and encyclopedic, they think it is important to mention Romney's, great-great grandfather's polygamy. It says he doesn’t drink or smoke. George W. Bush has been dry for many years. He does not drink or smoke, but does it get mentioned in their biography? The encyclopedia says Romney says “he abstained from sex until marriage and has since remained faithful to his wife of 38 years.” This is a total mischaracterization of what happened. Romney (unlike other candidates) was asked about his sex life. He first said it was no one else’s business, but according to the people who edit Romney’s biography, it should be in the first paragraph of his biography, along with six references to his religion (all in one paragraph). Specifically Romney’s Biography (2nd paragraph) says Romney is “member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”, a “Mormons”, his wife was “raised Episcopalian”, his great grandparents were, “polygamist Mormons who fled to Mexico in 1884 after the U.S. Supreme Court upheld various anti-polygamy laws in 1879” (2nd use of the word “Mormon” and “polygamy” in one paragraph, and no other presidential candidate’s article makes references to their great-grandparents, and Romney is the only top tier candidate to only have one wife, but that is all the people at Misplaced Pages care about), —Preceding unsigned comment added by Myclob (talk • contribs) 20:50, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

just wanted to add i completed the funding section, just forgot to sign in Czsargo 04:31, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree, this article is ridiculiously religion centered and none of it is encyclopedia worthy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.201.40.43 (talk) 05:01, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Vandalizing the Talk Page

Some juvenile decided to add a rant on the top of the talk page questioning whether Romney's first name was really Willard, and, among other things, suggesting Romney "get a life away from the presidential campaign." Please people, act like adults. Disagreeing (coherently) with a candidate's positions on the issues is one thing, that was just plain silly. SpudHawg948 10:28, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Update: The individual in question is using ip 68.12.242.72, and seems to have a penchant for committing acts of petty vandalism on pages of Republican cnadidates (except for one, this individual seems to like Ron Paul). So maybe watch out for this one for the near future? SpudHawg948 10:33, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Adding to the list from above... problems with the biography

4- Romney's great-grand parants were polygamist. No other presidential candidate's article mentions their grandparents, even though their were slave holders among them. How is Romney's great-grand-parent's polygamy more relevant than slavery? It menions the word polygamy twice, even though he is the only republican candidate to not have been married more than once, it mentions his grandparents even though none of the other candidate's articles mention their grandparents,

5- Romney doesn't smoke. Barak Obama is the only presidential candidate who does smoke. Hillary Clinton, Rudy, McCain, Huckabee... none of them smoke. Why does Romney's page mention that he smokes? It is another way for people to join the freak show and make everything about him go back to the fact that he is a Mormon. Yes, this article should mention his religion, but his biography should be changed to his "Mormon History" because that is all it is about... It mentions his "non-smoking" status, even though none of the other candidate's articles mention their "non-smoking" status.

6. It mentions that Romney "regularly" attends to his religious duties, but non of the other articles examine how "regularly" they attend church. Lets at least pretend that we are treating Romney simlar to other candidates, if we want this to look somewhat profesional. myclob 13:05, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

myclob 21:31, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Campaign Advisors

I tried adding some information about campaign advisors. If anyone can find more information about the campaign advisors/staff, I think it would be interesting. I found the staff . However, I didn't get a whole lot of information from there.

--Cronian 05:50, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Mister Joy Boy (talk) 04:58, 23 November 2007 (UTC)== none of my issues that I mention with the biography are argued with but... ==

... when ever I try and chane the biography, it gets changed back...

what gives? I would like to register a formal complaint... The biography is the biggest pile of hud I have ever read... every senstense has something to do with his religion, it mentions poligamy twice, discusses his great-grandparents (which no other wiki-article does)... it is a freaking pile of hud, and I'm sick and tired of looking at it every time I come to this site, and complaining about it, and no onle letting me change it, and no one responding to my critisism! myclob (talk) 04:06, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Where is a list of his children's names?

This is supposed to be a biography. It's a pretty poor one, when it lacks basic data. I want to know how many boys and how many girls he has, not really their names. He is running a campaign ad featuring home video footage of his "sons" (he doesn't mention his daughters -- JUST LIKE A MORMON, if I may ad, to downplay the daughters. Mister Joy Boy (talk) 04:58, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Good grief. Trying to ignore your prejudiced comments about Mormons, I wonder - did you read the article? It clearly says he has five sons and eleven grandchildren in the second paragraph of the "Biography" section. Do you have some reason to believe that they have hidden away some daughters? Unbelievable. And I just found their names, which I will add to the article. Tvoz |talk 03:40, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

This should be reduced in length

I've noticed that Wiki editors whittle back the bios of persons they don't particularly care for to about nothing, despite the fact the person is significant in their field and has relevant achievements. In articles about lawyers who aren't celebrities, the bio will be denuded of the person's achivement, as those allegedly should be put in the article about their firm, and of course, they really aren't.

In the case of Mrs. Jean Yawkey, the first woman to be on the Board of Directors of the Baseball Hall of Fame, the Wiki editors wanted to eliminate her article all together, as she -- being a woman -- is just an appendage of a man, and unworthy of a bio of her own. (They must be MORMONS.)

I vote that this article be stripped down to essentials: Birth date, schools data, family data and just a list of dates for the offices Mitt has held.

Let the common slob go to another article to find information, or another site not dedicated to creating endless spam on the Web.

Have a nice day.Mister Joy Boy (talk) 05:10, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

The Harry Reid Standard

In a previous discussion, the mention of Mitt Romney's religion was compared to that of Harry Reid. Both are Mormons. In Senator Reid's article, the fact that he was the first Mormon to serve as Senate Majority Leader appears in the first paragraph. As such, would it not be fair to state that Mitt Romney was Massachussets' first Mormon governor? After all, the state is known for firsts; it just elected its first black governor, and was also known for electing the first black Senator by popular vote.

Senator Robert Bennett's page also lists his religion in the first paragraph. As does Senator Gordon Smith's. In fact, the only current political figure not to have his Mormon religion mentioned in the first paragraph (aside from Governor Romney) is Senator Orrin Hatch. Senator Hatch's article is also the only one that mentions an endorsement of Governor Romney. I'm not sure if the others have, but the fact that these two do not have their faith listed as early as their fellow Mormons in politics is, I think, pretty POV.

I suggest the Harry Reid standard. Being the highest-ranking, most prominent Mormon on the Democratic side, we ought to apply the same standard to Romney as to Reid. I also think it would be fair to include Senator Hatch's Mormon faith in his first paragraph. I doubt there are as many who are concerned about Senator Hatch's page as Mitt Romney's, given the fact that Governor Romney is a candidate for President, so I figured I'd throw it out here, where the vested interests are, rather than simply sticking it in on Senator Hatch's page. Let me know what you guys thinks! Apartcents (talk) 15:19, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, lets make sure Romney is treated just as bad as the other Mormons on this site! Why don't you just treat Romney, like other presidential candidates... mentioning his religion 12 times on this page (he goes to the temple, his great-grandparents were polygamist, his father was mormon, his wife is mormon, but she was raised episcipol, he went on a mission, he is a biship, he was a stake president, etc... Look he is running for president... I know you are all fascinated with the fact that he is Mormon, but this page is not a place for you to get your kicks... go edit some other mormon websites, and leave this website's content so that it is similar in amount of details it deals with about religion, as other presidential candidates...myclob (talk) 02:34, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

The fact that Mitt Romney is Mormon, and what impact that may or may not have on his chances, is discussed by news commentators all the time. We absolutely should include it, and include the reliably sourced commentary that talks about it. You can't pretend that it isn't an issue - and you might try leaving your POV out of this. Accusing people of editing to get their kicks isn't exactly constructive criticism. Tvoz |talk 02:46, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, We're not doing it for the lulz. I happen to have chosen a handful of Republicans and a handful of Democrats running for President to make this better, not to push agendas. Like it or not, Romney's religion is a significant issue. He is the most visible Mormon, with the best chance of winning, in U.S history. Orrin Hatch run in 2000 but dropped out early, as did George Romney in 1968. Mitt Romney doesn't get a wiki page cuz he's running for President, he's getting one because he is a notable figure. This is not the place for campaign material, one way or another. It's a place for information.Apartcents (talk) 08:00, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

You don't think wikipedi has any obligation to treat Romney, who only gets a wikipedi article because he is running for president, like wikipedia treats the other presidential candidates? Lets be inteligent about this. You are saying the wikipedi article should discuss Romney's religion. I do not disagree. I'm not saying we should hide the fact. I'm just saying it is excesive. I also have a problem with the prominence of the discusion of his poligamy. I do not think that it is appropriate to have two mentions of the word poligamy in the very first part of the article about Romney. I am a Mormon. If I ever do anything newsworthy is poligamy going to be in my wikipedia article? Should poligamy be mentioned in every wikipedia article about Mormons? Anyways, back to Misplaced Pages, please look around the site and tell me what you think. Are they fair? Do they treat Romney the same as Rudy or Hillary? I say no. No other candidate has their religion mentioned 12 times. No other candidate has scandalous behavior of their grandparent's discussed. And it's not just the fact that these things are mentioned, but that they are mentioned at the top of the page, as the first (and most likely last things that people read about Romney, as most people just want the executive summary) thing in the page, which can, according to the people that edit the wikipedia article, be summed up with one word: MORMON. Not businessman. Not father. Not reformer. Not grandfather. Not Olympic turn-arounder… Not budget balance, not tax cutter, not border enforcer. No… just one word… the only word that matters when you are talking about someone who goes to the Mormon church: nothing else in their life matters, except the fact that they are Mormon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Myclob (talk • contribs) 04:45, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

No- this article was started in January 2004, a full three years before Romney set up his exploratory committee. It started as a stub, was expanded by January 2005 into a short article; by July 2006 it was a full-fledged piece which has been further expanded. He does not have an article only "because he is running for president" as you claim. This has been said a few times and you don't want to take the point: this is a biography of a former governor, Olympics CEO, businessman, and politician. His Presidential run is only one of the things discussed, and he had an article well before that. His family history is notable; his religion is notable. Take a look at Mike Huckabee, who is a Baptist minister. Lots of references in that article to his religion. I'm sorry if this article offends you as a Mormon - I don't think anyone's intention is to do that, and I don't think an objective reading of the article would see it as offensive or only being about his religion - not by a long shot. I'm afraid that your personal feelings here are coloring your objectivity. Tvoz |talk 05:32, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Look. You keep making the argument that his religion is important. No one disagrees with you... Please do not make that argument again. We are going around in circles. The question is weather or not the way the article, as written now, is appropriate? I have two questions, and please try to focus your responce to these two questions. 1) should there be 12 references, as outlined below, to Romney's religion within his "biography" and 2) Should the first thing you read about Romney be the biography, which mentions his religion 12 times? Please focus your effort on weather you think we should create a seperate "religion" section. Also you did not respond to my question. This is a very serious question. If I become famous, and get a wikipedia article, will my article mention poligamy because I am a Mormon? What is it about Romney that makes poligamy an issue, from a encyclopedia stand point. This is the issue that I want arbitration over. I WANT ARBITRATION myclob (talk) 19:13, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

See my edit - by changing the headings, perhaps your concerns will be allayed. As I said I didn't write this article and don't think it was very well organized. I've changed the headers to give equal weight to his background, business career and Olympics work, and take out the problematic "biography" - the whole article is his biography. "Early life and family background" seems more focused on its contents, "Education" is self-evident. As to your questions: No, I do not think we should have a separate religion section. I also do not think the number of times something related to his religion is mentioned is at all excessive - and your count is skewed anyway - defining LDS as Mormon is 2 refs? I don't see it that way. And see Huckabee. As for polygamy: it is not mentioned here because he is Mormon, and I have no idea what would be in your biography if you became famous. Polygamy is in his direct family background - it is the reason his father was born in Mexico - and, most importantly, it is discussed in reliable sources and so cited. That makes it notable, and should be in his encyclopedia article because it is something readers may be looking for information on. Other LDS/Mormons, like Orrin Hatch, do not have polygamy mentioned in their articles because apparently if it is in their family backgrounds it has not been discussed in reliable sources. If it was, it would be there. This is not an attack on Mormons as you seem to be taking it. And finally, as I said elsewhere, if you want to get an outside opinion, feel free to ask for one in the appropriate venues - saying it here won't do it. And take a little time to learn some more about how Misplaced Pages works - we try to edit by consensus, not by getting hysterical (which is how lots of people read comments posted in all caps to be). I've tried to address your concerns by reworking the structure of the article - I very much disagree with you, as others have as well, that the references to Romney's religion are excessive, or that his family history should be excised. Again, sorry if this offends you as a Mormon - it is not the intention of the editors, at least not this one. I am interested in producing a fair and comprehensive article, not one that is censored. Tvoz |talk 19:58, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Romney's Family Background

Most candidates have mention of family background, especially if it is prominent. Someone removed the several paragraphs of Romney's family's polygamist history. I agree that it is not notable or NPOV to include that his great-grandparents fled somewhere because of polygamy. However, this was also removed:

Romney's father, George Romney, was born in Chihuahua, Mexico, and the family moved to the United States in 1912<ref name="polyroots"/> after the outbreak of the Mexican Revolution. - <ref name="ancestors"> ''Salt Lake Tribune,'' ] ]</ref><ref>http://www.epcc.edu/nwlibrary/borderlands/19_mormons.htm</ref>

I think that ought to stay, with an expansion as to who George Romney was. He was a prominent person, Governor of Michigan. In fact, he ran for President briefly in 1968. I know this for fact, and it is also on his Misplaced Pages page. However, I'd dispute that he was born in Mexico. If he were born in Mexico he'd be unable to run for President. If I get the green light of consensus to include a bit of NPOV family history for Governor Romney I can dig around and see if I can find out where his father was really born. As this is a charged topic I don't want to unilaterally make a change. Apartcents (talk) 15:27, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

George Romney was born in Mexico - one or both of his parents were American citizens, so despite his place of birth, George was automatically entitled to citizenship, and therefore was eligible to be President; he did run in 1968. I agree that George's background should be here, and I think the fact that a Presidential candidate's great-grandparents (not great-great-grand - let's keep that straight) fled the country so that they could practice their religious beliefs is indeed notable and should be included. Keeping it out of the article is POV - there are sources, and there are sources who discuss Mitt's ancestry and whether it is an impediment to his Presidential chances - this is notable material that needs to be here. Tvoz |talk 02:39, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Interesting, always thought people had to be born in the U.S. or its territories to be President. I will see if I can find more sources on George Romney, it could be incorrect he was born in Mexico. Maybe even call the campaign just to rest the suspicion. After all, I remember the media mentioning Bill Richardson was born in Mexico years ago, and that was obviously wrong (he was born in Cali). Thanks for your comment! Apartcents (talk) 07:56, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

By all means, check it out - but I assure you, George Romney was born in Mexico. Tvoz |talk 05:18, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

"saying that he abstained from sex until marriage and has since remained faithful to his wife of 39 years"

The way the article reads, it sounds like Romney is making this part of his campaign message. That he speaks about it on the stump.

This is not true. He was asked if he had premarital sex in an interview, and he said that that was none of his business, but then he flip-flopped and answered the question...

It needs to be re-worded if kept, but I hardly think the pre-marital sex life of presidential candidates is important, but if we are going to be examining it, it should be for all candidates...

PLEASE DO NOT PUT BACK IN INFORMATION ABOUT HIS SEX PRE-MARRAGE SEX LIFE (WITHOUT DISCUSSION) OR I WILL COMPLAIN. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Myclob (talk • contribs) 02:27, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Please calm down, Myclob. No one is attacking Mitt for his sex life. Fred Thompson's marriage at 17 to his pregnant girlfriend is in his article, and lots of other stuff is all over the place - it's not for us to censor, and if information is reliably sourced it's reasonable to include. Tvoz |talk 02:43, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I didn't say anyone was "attacking" Mitt for his sex life. Agenda journalism, isn't saying things that aren’t true, its not using the same standard for both sides. Please show comparable discussions of a Democrat's pre-marriage sex life. It does not matter, and it does not belong in an encyclopedia... perhaps you thought you were editing a gossip journal? You say, "Fred Thompson's marriage at 17 to his pregnant girlfriend is in his article". I did not see it says; "In September 1959, at the age of 17, Thompson married Sarah Elizabeth Lindsey. Their son, Freddie Dalton "Tony" Thompson Jr., was born in April 1960. Another son and a daughter were born soon thereafter. While Thompson was attending law school, both he and his wife worked to pay for his education and support their three children." This does not speculate or go into his pre-marital sex life... Our "professionally written Romney article" (sarcasm) goes into his pre-marital sex life within the first few paragraphs of the article... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Myclob (talk • contribs)

Please sign your comments with 4 tildes like this: ~~~~ . And you might take a look at WP:AGF - as I said above, attacking other editors with your assumption that they are editing for kicks or suggesting that people think they are editing a gossip journal is not conducive to reaching consensus. In case you didn't realize it, we are not editing an article about a candidate - we are editing a biography of a notable individual who is a former Governor, businessman, etc and now happens to be running for President. It is not relevant to look at the articles about other people running for President and we aren't expected to be "fair" in that way - to only include something here if the discussion also takes place on another person's article. I actually think it's an unverifiable claim that he makes, to say that he has remained faithful to his wife since marriage, so in fact I wouldn't include that here - I never got to the point of discussing that, when I was stopped by your incorrect statement that if we discuss something about one person we have to discuss it about all of them. And your all caps demand is somewhat out of control. If you want to discuss the relative merits of including or not including things in the article, great - this is the place to do it. If the material has been there for a while - which suggests consensus - then come here and talk about it if your removal is reverted - don't go ballistic, and don't edit war, and don't accuse others of bad faith editing. And your sarcasm is also not appreciated. Tvoz |talk 03:15, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Back to the substance: you are quite wrong about Fred Thompson. I'm afraid you didn't read far enough - specifically see footnote 90 which reads: Mathews, Joe. "Thompson wed his ambition", Los Angeles Times, (2007-09-06). Retrieved on 2007-09-07. : "In the summer of 1959….Lindsey told Thompson she was pregnant. He responded, friends say, by asking her to marry him…. Freddie and Sarah exchanged vows in a Methodist church during the second week of his senior year. Seven months later, in April 1960, 17-year-old Thompson had a son." That together with the section it is footnoting is quite clearly discussing his pre-marital sex life, as it is relevant to his personal life and children. As I said above, please calm down. Tvoz |talk 03:22, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

You say, "suggesting that people think they are editing a gossip journal is not conducive to reaching consensus"... I am making a logical argument that discussing Romney's premarital sex life is more conducive to a gossip journal than an encyclopedia.... Is it against the rules to criticize your belief that Romney's pre-marital sex life deserves to be discussed? I'm not saying your acting in bad faith, I just disagree with your conclusion that this needs to be included. I would like to formally request arbitration... I have tried on a number of times to remove the references to Romney's great-grandparent's polygamy...., his pre-marital sex life, that he supposedly goes to the temple regularly... there are like 12 mentions of his religion in his "biography" and it is just ridiculous... The argument that people are interested is not a valid argument... people are interested in porn, but that does not mean that wikipedia should give it to them... wikipedia has a certain professional obligation, and they should treat Romney similar to other candidates... this is not just a "free-for-all"" were we "give people what you say they want to know"... I would like to formally request arbitration, if someone knows how to accomplish this...., please help me myclob (talk) 03:45, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Are you seriously comparing what is said in a "footnote" at the bottom of the page, to what is said about Romney? I think a candidate who is supposed to be the savior of the religious right, like Fred Thompson, who had his first kid out of wedlock is bigger news than when Mike Wallace asked Romney if he had premarital sex, and Romney said no, but the way it is written now makes it sound like Romney uses his lake of pre-marital sex in his stump speech… the way it reads is deceptive, and it does not belong at the very top of the Romney page, and I think it is hilarious that you point out that a footnote, at the very bottom of Fred Thompson’s page, mentions that his first child was born out of wedlock! How many people read Fred Thompsons’ footnotes, let alone the 90th footnote?! Do you really think these are equivalent? But I mentioned like 7 problems with the Romney article, and that is your only argument? And your telling me to calm down? myclob (talk) 03:45, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

(1) Yes, I am suggesting that you calm down. (2) When you question editors' motives ("perhaps you thought you were editing a gossip journal" and "I know you are all fascinated with the fact that he is Mormon, but this page is not a place for you to get your kicks" among other comments) you are not assuming good faith on the part of others here, and that is not conducive to reaching consensus. In other words, if you're going to attack someone, that person is less likely to be interested in reaching consensus with you - you see? (3) You seem to have tried to remove anything that you view as negative about someone you are supporting in an election according to your user page; your concerns have been responded here on Talk numerous times, by more than one editor, and the reason the material remains in the article is that others find it to be notable - you don't have consensus for your point of view. Indeed, part of the problem seems to be that you are editing with a point of view, not objectively. (4) I didn't make the argument, as you claim, that Romney's religion should be included because "people are interested" - I said above that it is notable for inclusion because "The fact that Mitt Romney is Mormon, and what impact that may or may not have on his chances, is discussed by news commentators all the time." Therefore reliably sourced references to his religion absolutely should be included. Please don't mis-state what I said in order to refute it. (5) I mention the Fred Thompson premarital sex reference because you claimed that Romney was being singled out for such discussion - my point was that such discussions are included when they are notable. Again, perhaps you missed it above - this is not an article about a candidate, it is a biography of an individual who is running for office at the moment, and comparisons to articles about other people who are also running for office are not relevant. This is not a matter of fairness or so-called equal treatment. Each article stands on its own, and includes things that are relevant to that particular individual. Barack Obama's piece talks about his use of alcohol and drugs as a teenager; it would be incorrect to say that this should not be in Obama's article unless similar discussions are in all of the other biographies. It is relevant to Obama so it is included. (6) Finally - I don't think this is a particularly well-written article, and it would benefit from some editing and expanding. I didn't write it - and I'm not defending the way it is constructed: I'm merely saying that his religion is a major subject of discussion, and his personal morals and values were discussed by him and therefore perhaps notable. As I said earlier, I don't think that his saying he has been faithful to his wife is verifiable, so I'm not necessarily comfortable with including it as a fact - but I think it is notable that he made the point - presumably to contrast himself with some others running against him - and therefore it's not gossip, but is notable. If you want to ask for other opinions, please do - I'm not claiming to be anything more than one editor here, but there are others here - like Apartcents recently - who have made similar points to mine and who have retained the material you are questioning. Tvoz |talk 05:07, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

So, if I do something famous, will polygamy be mentioned in my article because I am a Mormon? Or is that just reserved for Mormons running for office? You keep arguing that wikipedia should mention his religion. I do not disagree... I have a problem with 12 references to his religion at the very top of the article, in a negative way. Its not the fact that his religion is mentioned, but the way that it is discussed... "The media" is a very large organization, with thousands of people... whenever someone sees my resume, and they see that I went to BYU, they ask how many wives I have... Yes, a lot of people in the media have mentioned Romney's great-grandparents polygamy... does that mean that this article should have 12 mentions of his religion, at the very top of the page? Is Romney famous because he goes to the temple? Does Romney have a wikipedia article because he was a Bishop? No these things are secondary...

I propose that we make a "religion" section, and move all this stuff into the religion section, and out of the biography. It is stupid, in my opinion, to have Romney's great-grandparent's polygamy in his biography sections. Most biographies start in the teen age years, or at birth.... anyways what do you think? Can we create a Religion article, and not have it be the very first thing in the article? If we do mention Romney's great-grandparent's polygamy, can it not be the very first thing in the article... can it be in a religion sub-section?

Romney's Religion or Romney's religion has been a factor throughout his political career. In 1994 Ted Kennedy ran commercials that mentioned ... Oops I meant for this to be part of the previous section 71.143.239.170 (talk) 23:34, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

No, I don't think we want a religion section. See my comments above in the Harry Reid section. And please note that even before my latest edit the first thing in the article is the intro which is a summary of the article, reflecting the major points that are discussed in the article. Not including his religion - because any objective reader would agree that it's not one of the major points of the piece at present. I'm afraid you are not reading in an objective manner here. (Also, it is apparent that the IP comment just above is by Myclob.) Tvoz |talk 20:17, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Why aren’t you responding to any of my arguments? I want arbitration. So, if I do something famous, will polygamy be mentioned in my article because I am a Mormon? How do you respond to my pointing out that no other candidate mentions their premarital sex life WITHIN THE ARTICLE? Yes you pointed out that Fred Thompson's 90th footnote mentions the fact that he hade a child out of wedlock, but you have not responded to my arguments that they are not the same thing. THAT IS WHY I WANT ARBITRATION! You are not responding to any of my arguments, and you are not allowing me to make changes! myclob (talk) 23:35, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I understand the fact that their is an into section. But there is false advertisement when that article is called "biography" or "Family and Early life" because their are two sentences or 3 that don't mention his religion. That is why I think we should re-label the section something to do with religion... that’s what all the info is... then you can separate the facts in their about his kids, and grandparents, and you can put all that info in about polygamy, and him going to the temple, and whatever the heck you want to put in their about his religion, and weather or not Mormons think the pearly gates slide or swing, but it should all be in it's own religion section, that is not the first thing you read about, besides the intro. Please, I want arbitration, and I don't think Tvoz is God of this article... I want some other people's opinions, because I know how important it is to TZoz that we keep the information in their about Romney's great-great grandpa's polygamy, because according to TZoz, that is the first thing you need to know when you want to know about Mitt Romney, and it should be in the first section, after the intro, and we should call all this religious information "biography" or "early life and family" even though it all has to do with Romney's religion, and TZOz apparently thinks every famous Mormon should have polygamy discussed in their wikipedia article, because he refuses to give reasons why it should be discussed with regard to Romney, and not other famous Mormons. myclob (talk) 23:50, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Good grief. Tvoz |talk 00:06, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

"Good grief"? That's not are argument. myclob 16:26, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

"Good grief" was a response to your apparent inability or unwillingness to read. Please point me to where I said or even implied this: "I know how important it is to TZoz that we keep the information in their about Romney's great-great grandpa's polygamy, because according to TZoz, that is the first thing you need to know when you want to know about Mitt Romney, and it should be in the first section, after the intro, and we should call all this religious information "biography" or "early life and family" even though it all has to do with Romney's religion, and TZOz apparently thinks every famous Mormon should have polygamy discussed in their wikipedia article, because he refuses to give reasons why it should be discussed with regard to Romney, and not other famous Mormons. " I have explained, and explained, and explained numerous times; I edited the article to try to accommodate your person concerns; I have suggested that you stop screaming at readers with your insistence on all caps; I answered your question about whether your biography would have polygamy mentioned in it: but you are only able to repeat your screed. So, good grief. Tvoz |talk 17:53, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

"Good grief was a response to your apparent inability or unwillingness to read" Look both of us think the other person isn't willing to read what the other person has written... Yes you have implied and specifically stated that you think Romney's religion, and his grandparent's poligamy is the most important thing about him, because you continually insist that they be the first thing in this article. How have you; "edited the article to try to accommodate your person concerns"? It looks the same now, as it has for the past two weeks? Every time I change it (I think I have tried two or three times after explaining myself) you change it back, without responding to my arguments... I am not repeating my screed... I am repeating myself, because it takes two to tengo... everywere you put your side, I respond. I don't know why you think my arguments are a screed, but what do you think I think about your lack of arguments? The only argument you have made is that "the media" has mentioned poligamy... when ever I try to engage you in a more specific discussion of weather or not we should do everything "the media does" you say that I am writting a screed, or say that I am being unfair, or you change the subject from the points I am making to something personal... or you just say "good grief". myclob 21:38, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Biography (2)

Below is Mitt Romney's Misplaced Pages biography. It is the first thing you read about Mitt Romney on the site. Lets see if you can count, with me, the number of times his religion, religious practices, and polygamy are mentioned as important facts about Romney in the minds of the people who edit Misplaced Pages.

Born on March 12, 1947 in Detroit, Michigan, Mitt Romney is the son of former Michigan Governor and 1968 presidential candidate George W. Romney and 1970 U.S. Senate candidate Lenore Romney. His name "Willard" was after hotel magnate J. Willard Marriott, his father's best friend. Mitt, his middle name, comes from a relative who played football for the Chicago Bears.

Romney married his high school girlfriend Ann Davies in 1968. Both are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (1), commonly known as Mormons (2), though Ann was raised Episcopalian (3). They have five married sons (Tagg, Matt, Josh, Ben and Craig) and eleven grandchildren.

Romney's great-grandparents were polygamist (4) Mormons (5) who fled to Mexico in 1884 after the U.S. Supreme Court upheld various anti-polygamy (6) laws in 1879. Romney's father, George Romney, was born in Chihuahua, Mexico, and the family moved to the United States in 1912 after the outbreak of the Mexican Revolution.

Romney is a former bishop (7) and stake president (8) in his church, and he attends a temple (9) regularly. As a devout Mormon, (10) he does not drink (11) or smoke (12). He's also a proponent of family values, saying that he abstained from sex until marriage and has since remained faithful to his wife of 39 years.

Do you think democrats are trying to make this all about Romney's unpopular religion? There are 12 mentions of his religious practices, and polygamy in his biography. How many times do you think the articles about Rudy, McCain, HIllary, and Barak mention their religion? Take a wild guess.

Do you think this page is fair to Romney? Do they treat Romney the same as Rudy or Hillary?

I say no.

No other candidate has their religion mentioned 12 times! No other candidate has scandalous behavior of their grandparent's discussed! And it's not just the fact that these things are mentioned, but that they are mentioned at the top of the page, as the first (and most likely last things that people read about Romney, as most people just want the executive summary) thing in the page, which can, according to the people that edit the wikipedia article, be summed up with one word: MORMON.

Not businessman. Not father. Not reformer. Not grandfather. Not Olympic turn-arounder… Not budget balance, not tax cutter, not border enforcer. No… just one word… the only word that matters when you are talking about someone who goes to the Mormon church: nothing else in their life matters, except the fact that they are Mormon. myclob (talk) 04:31, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I WANT ARBITRATION FOR THIS SITE. myclob (talk) 04:31, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Why do you blame Democrats? It's only conservative Republicans that are concerned about Romney's religion. Corvus cornix_talk 23:52, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

It is not, "only conservative Republicans that are concerned about Romney's religion". Once again liberels are not liberal... if you look at all the polls, you will find that democrats are less likely to vote for someone who is a mormon than evangelicals are less likely to vote for a Mormon...http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=19441.

What does this have to do with Republican or Democrat? If the article is incorrectly biased, we should change it. Try WP:RFC if you think there is a problem here. The Evil Spartan (talk) 00:04, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

This is an out of control POV editor - he doesn't seem to grasp the meaning of consensus or objectivity, and ignores the changes that already have been made to try to accommodate to his concerns - see this comment of mine above, among others. The article is not biased: Romney's religion is not overly stressed, and this editor is not engaging in constructive discussion. As I've said repeatedly, if he wants to seek outside opinions he's more than welcome to. Tvoz |talk 00:27, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Tvoz, do not call m an "out of control POV editor". I am not an editor... you do not let me edit! Look, everything is just the way you like it... You say I "don't seem to grasp the meaning of consensus or objectivity"... but cool hand luke, I, and others all have problems with the way it reads now, but you are the out of control editor that keeps all 13 references to Romney's religion under an article that is titled, "family and earl life". You do not grasp the meaning of concensus.... lots of people have problems with the way it is written, but you are the one that gets his way in the end and keeps changing it, without reachin a consensus... How can you say an article is not biased, when it mentions Romney's religion 13 times? myclob 16:24, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Alright... we are kind of going in circles... lets discuss each of these seperatley... Here are the 13 mentions of his religion... lets discuss each one seperatly, so that we don't miss-understand each other...

1.) "Both are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"

Both is refereing to Ann Romney and Mitt Romney... This article is about Mitt Romney, do you need to discuss Ann Romney's faith in Mitt Romney's article if you link to Ann Romney's article? I don't think so...

Do we need this? I say no myclob 17:02, 1 December 2007 (UTC) Please vote (I think it makes sense to keep the grand total of votes at the bottom of the argument, so that as new information comes in we can keep a running total of the votes.

Do you need to mention that Mitt Romney is a member of the church of Jesus Chrit of Latter-day saints? I don't think so. It already mentions his denomination off to the right, below his picture, but you may disagree... If you do want to mention it again, I think you should make a section called "religion" instead of stuffing religion informtion into his "Family life" section or "Family History" section or "early history section". The church he goes to has nothing to do with any of these sections.

2. "commonly known as Mormons"

Do you need this? It already says his religion under his picture.... if people want to know more about his religion, they can click on the link... this article is about Mitt Romney not about the common name that people call his religion... I say nomyclob 17:02, 1 December 2007 (UTC). Please vote.

3. "though Ann was raised Episcopalian"

This aticle is not about Ann. If people want to read about Ann, they can click on the link. This is Mitt Romney's article, and it seems odd to me to have what denomination Ann was raised in, at the very top of Mitt Romney's article... I say nomyclob

4. "Romney's great-grandparents were polygamist"

I do not think this belongs at the top of Mitt Romney's article. I we need to talk about it I think it should go in a seperate section. First of all it is not true... Not all of Mitt Romney's "grandparents" were polygimast Mormons... Some of them were... But again, this is an article about Mitt Romney... should every famous Mormon's wikipedia article be another oportunity for people to discuss poligamy? What is it about Mitt Romney that makes it good to talk about poligamy? If you do mention it, do you think that you should mention what Romney has said about it? Perhaps? Romney has said that it is discusting, and that he can't imagine anything that could be worse than poligamy... If you are going to mention it, do you think you should give a balanced discusion about it? Like I say, I am a Mormon, and when people see my Resume, and that I went to BYU, they ask how many wives I have... I think that is very imuture... our religion stopped that 108 years ago... I think people are just trying to make Romney look stupid by mentioning it... people with agendas... or else why isn't poligamy mentioned in every famous mormon's biography? No, they just mention it in Romney's because they don't want him to get a vote... I know I'm not supposed to question other's motives, but you have to ask yourself why it is OK to talk about Romney's poligamy ancestors, when they don't get spoken off in all famous Mormon's wikipedia article? My only explanation is that people want to bring it up to give him a black eye, because they don't want people voting for him...

5. "Mormons" (5)

We have already established the fact that they are Mormon, do we have to keep saying the word? I say take it out, or move it to a religion section myclob 17:02, 1 December 2007 (UTC) please vote

6. "who fled to Mexico in 1884 after the U.S. Supreme Court upheld various anti-polygamy laws in 1879"

Again, 2nd use of the word poligamy, in an article about the only republican to have only been married once. This is rediculous. I say take it out, or move it to a religion section myclob 17:02, 1 December 2007 (UTC) please vote

7. "Romney is a former bishop "

I say take it out, or move it to a religion section myclob 17:02, 1 December 2007 (UTC) please vote

8. "and stake president"

I say take it out, or move it to a religion section myclob 17:02, 1 December 2007 (UTC) please vote

9. "in his church" 10. " and he attends a temple regularly"

I say take it out, or move it to a religion section myclob 17:02, 1 December 2007 (UTC) please vote

11. "As a devout Mormon"

I say take it out, or move it to a religion section myclob 17:02, 1 December 2007 (UTC) please vote

12. "he does not drink" A lot of the candidates do not drink. Bush has been dry for many years. Why doesn't his article say, "as a divout baptist (or whatever he is) he does not drink"

I say take it out, or move it to a religion section myclob 17:02, 1 December 2007 (UTC) please vote

13. "or smoke" Barak Obama is the only smoker... is Romney's "not smoking" really important?

I say take it out, or move it to a religion section myclob 17:02, 1 December 2007 (UTC) please vote

14. "He's also a proponent of family values, saying that he abstained from sex until marriage and has since remained faithful to his wife of 39 years." See my argument above

I say take it out, or move it to a religion section myclob 17:02, 1 December 2007 (UTC) please vote

changing signatures

I will refrain from speculating, but would like to point out for the record that at least one comment posted above by IP 71.143.239.170 was then re-signed by IP 208.96.213.98; and at least one comment posted by IP 208.96.213.98 was resigned by Myclob. So I am assuming that all three ids are the same person. I raise this in the event that anyone wants to discuss consensus. Tvoz |talk 00:48, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

No freaking kidding... I sign my name when ever I remember, and when I put thesemyclob 23:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC) and it says, this IP address, I realize I put these myclob 23:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC) without being signed in and so I signed in and put them in. Myclob=home IP and work IP, no conspiracy...myclob 23:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

No one said there was a conspiracy. Changing IPs to your name is no problem - people sometimes forget to log in. But changing one IP to another IP signature is at least confusing to readers as it suggests that there are other people agreeing with you, when in fact it's just you agreeing with yourself. Tvoz |talk 00:14, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I did not change my IP. I put my signature, when I wasn't logged in, and realized I wasn't logged in, and I logged in, and re-put in my signature...I did this same thing from home, and I made the same mistake at work. myclob 15:18, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

More Relevant Questions than His Great-Grandparents?

I have just plowed through all this Talk page, with its (seemingly) endless fascination over Mr. Romney's religion and family background. Nowhere do I see anybody interested in the reported fact that he supported the invasion of Iraq, or that he wants to increase the military presence in that country, or that he wants to greatly increase our country's spending on military outlay, or that he condones waterboarding and other "non-torture coercion". Aren't those positions of much greater portent than what y'all have been fighting over?? Raymondwinn (talk) 10:37, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Raymond, some of us are interested in those much more important issues. But the purpose of the Talk page is to discuss items in the article that need editors' attention, not a place to discuss what any of us thinks of Romney or his positions. Please see the section of the article that is headed "Political positions" (which is supposed to be a summary) and the separate sub-article "Political positions of Mitt Romney" for how his stands on Iraq, torture, and military spending are handled. I don't doubt that the sub-article could use some critical review and expansion - if you have any suggestions about what is missing there (and if anything seems to missing from this article's summary), please share them. But the talk page is not a forum for discussing our personal opinions about the subject. (I can see why you might have gotten that impression from some of the comments above, though.) Tvoz |talk 16:37, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Look Tvoz, you keep saying there is all this concensus to keep the page the way it is, with 13 references to Romney's religion at the top of the page, mentioning his great-great grandparent's poligamy twice, and talking about how he goes to the temple... but your the only onle that keeps saying that it is good the way it is, but Raymondwinn, Cool Hand Luke , and I think it needs to change, and you are the only person that wants it to stay the same!myclob 15:09, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

The comment immediately above this one is a good example of what I mean when I say you are out of control, Myclob. How is your comment in any way responsive to what I said to Raymondwinn in this section? Did I say anything here about consensus? Had Coolhandluke commented when I posted here? Adding the same thing over and over on this page doesn;t make your point more correct, and it doesn't give you consensus. There I used the word. By the way, when did it become 13 references? Previously you said it was 12. Tvoz |talk 17:48, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Can you give me a call, so we can talk this out? We are going in circles, it is getting ugly, and we are making no progress... You ask, " How is your comment in any way responsive to what I said to Raymondwinn in this section?" Well Raymondwinn said about this article, there is "endless fascination over Mr. Romney's religion and family background". So in my mind, his comments showed that, unlike what you say, there is not a consensus that the article needs to stay the way it is. Raymondwinn said there is too much fascination with religion... it sounds to me like he thinks you are wrong... I was pointing that out... that you don't have a consensus... what down't you understand about that? How is it so difficult for you to understand that you don't have consensus? "Did I say anything here about consensus?" Yes. "Had Coolhandluke commented when I posted here?" Yes. Look below. "Adding the same thing over and over on this page doesn't make your point more correct, and it doesn't give you consensus." I don't mean to be repeating myself, but you see we are doing this thing back and forth, and it takes two to tengo, and so everywere that you say we should keep the 13 mentions of his religion, I place why I disagree... I don't mean to be repeating myself, but that is getting off the topic, and is open to enterpretation. For instance, I think you are repeating yourself, but lets not get sidtracked into an argument over who is repeating his/herself... why don't you ever respond to my arguments, but nevermind, lets not get into all these accusations... just look below... I think I have a solution... we can vote on each specific mention of religion.. that is democratic... I have organized a good way that we don't repeat ourselves... lets just take each mention of his religion, one at a time, and vote on how it should be handled... See below for the count of every 13 references...myclob 20:59, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

duplicate text

Romney now believes that Roe v. Wade should be overturned and believes a constitutional amendment is appropriate when America is ready for it and that abortion is wrong except to save the life of the mother. Romney has made pro-choice comments in the past, but now says he has reversed his position.

Romney now believes that Roe v. Wade should be overturned and believes a constitutional amendment is appropriate when America is ready for it and that abortion is wrong except to save the life of the mother. Romney has made pro-choice comments in the past, but now says he has reversed his position. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.131.18.130 (talk) 18:45, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

No consensus for these changes

The idea of a separate religion section was proposed above and there was no consensus reached here to include it - I've reverted it pending discussion. My opinion is that having a section called religion calls more attention to it, not less - and since the objection raised by one editor here has been that too much attention has been paid to Romney's religion, I don't see how having a separate section is any help at all. I addressed his stated concerns by removing "biography" and changing several headings earlier and he had no reply. And as for the polygamy material - see the discussions that appear above regarding keeping this well-sourced material that has been written about extensively in the press. Again, no consensus was reached to remove it, and since it is under discussion I think it is inappropriate for it to be removed now. It has been repeatedly suggested to the editor who is having a problem with it that he is welcome to ask for other opinions. But generally when other opinions are asked for, they make their comments here on Talk, in hopes of reaching consensus. Tvoz |talk 02:40, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I think a section would be best—probably below political positions. It is a major aspect of this candidate; it should be a separate section because it's a major issue (observe headlines like Newsweeks "A Mormon's Journey") and it's orthogonal to his financial and political accomplishments. We would also avoid front-loading the article with discussions of his religion including non-notable polygamist great grandparents. Cool Hand Luke 08:11, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

There was no consensus for the way that you keep changing it back to! Come on! The heading says, "Early life and family background" but all it talks about is his religion. It is confusing and missleading. I've been editing this article way longer than you have Tvoz, and the way it reads is very new, and no "consensus" was reached for the way it reads, except if you think your opinion is automatically a "consensus"myclob 14:57, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

So, family background is an inappropriate place to discuss his family's background? How does that work? Do we need a section entitled, "Time family spent living in Mexico". If you think you can integrate this into the article better, let us know how because it would probably be acceptable. Removing it from the article because you think it is negative is unacceptable. It is sourced, neutral, factual and encyclopedic. Turtlescrubber

Look, do you really have to ask that question? They say to be nice, but this is rediculous... I THINK THAT ROMNEY BEING A BISHOP IN HIS RELIGION, GOING TO TEMPLE, NOT DRINKING, NOT SMOKING, BEING A STAKE PRESIDENT, ABSTAINING FROM SEX, should be moved to religion section because they have nothing to do with "Early life and family background"... And no other presidential candidate (how many times do I have to say this) has an "family background" section... this is just an excuse for you to mention his great-grandparent's poligamy...myclob 15:32, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

So you want to reduce what you see as undue weight by creating a whole section specifically devoted to the facts that "ROMNEY BEING A BISHOP IN HIS RELIGION, GOING TO TEMPLE, NOT DRINKING, NOT SMOKING, BEING A STAKE PRESIDENT, ABSTAINING FROM SEX", or whatever all that means. Other articles have sections that are very similiar to an early life and family background section. I haven't checked but I do not recall many "Religion" sections. If you think about it Religion, in many cases, is tied in very deeply to family so it is not out place here. Should we follow this section with a religion section? All it would take would be adding a header. Is that what you are looking for? Turtlescrubber 15:51, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

No, I want an honest article. If you HAVE to talk about Romney's great-grandparent's poligamy, I want you to call it what it is. It should not be icluded in Romney's earl life... If you are going to talk about him being a steak president, it should not be included in "ear;u life"... he was very old when he was steak president... I don't like the sneaky, dishonest way that 13 mentions of Romney's religion are put within the catigory "early life"... If you want to talk about his early life, talk about what he did in grammer school... look I have to go get my pictures taken, but this is what think... we should make a list of all 13 references to his religion, and figure out where each one should go, and we can have a vote on which ones we keep... that way we are not talking about generalities, and taking for ever, but if we get into the details, it may seem like it will take longer, but we will talk past each other less and stuff...

Other people don't normally have a background section including their great grandparents. It's notable to be sure, but not notable as part of his family background. It's discussed because of his religion, which is a central question about this candidate. Therefore, we should include it in a section about religion and controversy. Cool Hand Luke 19:41, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

"Born on March 12, 1947"

It mentions this twice... It already mentions it in the intro...

Early life and background

I think this section could use some work. New stuff is italicized:

Mitt Romney is the son of former Michigan Governor and 1968 presidential candidate George W. Romney and 1970 U.S. Senate candidate Lenore Romney. His name "Willard" was after hotel magnate J. Willard Marriott, his father's best friend. Mitt, his middle name, comes from a relative who played football for the Chicago Bears.

Romney married his high school girlfriend Ann Davies in 1968, and they remain married. Both are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, (the LDS Church, commonly known as Mormons) though Ann was raised Episcopalian (she converted to Mormonism). They have five married sons — (Tagg, Matt, Josh, Ben and Craig) — and eleven grandchildren. Romney's great-grandparents were polygamist Mormons who fled to Mexico in 1884 after the U.S. Supreme Court upheld various anti-polygamy laws in 1879. Some of Romney’s ancestors were polygamists, which is a practice that he has denounced.

Romney's father, George Romney, was born in Chihuahua, Mexico, and the family moved to the United States in 1912 after the outbreak of the Mexican Revolution. Romney is a former bishop and stake president in his church, and he attends a temple regularly. As a devout Mormon, he He does not drink or smoke. He's , and he is also a proponent of family values, saying that he abstained from sex until marriage and has since remained faithful to his wife of 39 years.

First off, we don't need to provide all these synonyms for his religion. Just say "Mormon" and that's plenty.

The bit about his great-grandparents is just plain false. Not all of them were polygamists, and even the cited article's title only involves a "branch" of his family. Let's not dwell on the black sheep.

Also, if he's a former bishop and stake president, it's redundant to say that he's devout and that he attends temple. The stuff about being married to only one woman fits better where his wife is first mentioned. As for his smoking and drinking habits, do we know whether he would smoke if he weren't a Mormon? Do we mention the smoking habits of other candidates? There's no need to repeatedly ( over and over again and redundantly) indicate that he is a Mormon.Ferrylodge 19:30, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

We have to include the full name of the church on first notice. I agree with the rest of your suggestions. Cool Hand Luke 19:43, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I modified my initial comment accordingly. Mrs. Romney's bio says that she was only Episcopalian "nominally", so there's no need to mention it here. Okay now?Ferrylodge 19:52, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Incidentally, our article provides a false title in the footnotes. The correct title is "Romney family tree has polygamy branch" (emphasis added).Ferrylodge 20:00, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

If the above changes are acceptable to people, then I will also insert the following Romney quote into the corresponding footnote: "Asked if he had premarital sex with Ann, Romney tells Wallace, 'No, I'm sorry. We don’t get into those things. The answer is no.'" Such titillating trivia does not belong in the main text. See, for example, the Fred Thompson article, where such stuff is only in a footnote, and not in the main text.Ferrylodge 20:51, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Please hold off on all of this until more editors have weighed in on this - there has been an ongoing discussion about this with numerous editors, and they should be heard from. I for one am looking it over and would like to hear from others. But as for his great-grandparents, sure we should qualify which ones we mean - but this is something that has been discussed in the media and our removing it strikes me as POV. Tvoz |talk 21:03, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Tvoz, you say that some of the edits I've suggested strike you as POV. If you mean that I am trying to slant the article, nothing could be further from the truth. I have no objection if the article says "Some of Romney’s ancestors were polygamists, which is a practice that he has denounced." What is slanted about that? I have identified outright falsities in this article, and you say that I have a POV? Could we please turn down the temperature here? Thanks.Ferrylodge 21:12, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

No, I wasn't saying you were trying to slant the article, as a matter of fact. And I've said several times that I didn't write this piece and think it needs a lot of work - so in fact I welcome new editors taking a look at it. I said that I don't think the polygamy should be removed as a few have wanted to do, because more editors here have felt that it was notable and should be included. And I asked that you wait before making major changes for others to speak up on your suggestions - I haven't said what I think of them yet. Tvoz |talk 21:21, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Tvoz: You seem to have the mistaken impression that consensus is required to edit the article. To the contrary, until there is consensus, we are free to hammer it out. No one has objected to these changes—not even you (if a assume good faith that you really are holding out for more commentary). For what it's worth, I think the polygamy and Mormonism should be explored in a section about his nomination bid. It's a big deal to his candidacy, but not so much to his upbringing. Cool Hand Luke 23:17, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

The stuff regarding his great-grandparents is not relevant given that they are not notable in their own right. I would imagine most everyone has someone in their history which by today's standards would ne viewed negatively, but that is no reason to include it in that persons BLP. Arzel 21:05, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

We're in the middle of discussing just that - see above - so please hold off until we reach consensus - we did have consensus, I believe, about including the well-sourced and notable polygamous background, which is why it was back in the article. Tvoz |talk 21:08, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Tvoz said; "but this is something that has been discussed in the media and our removing it strikes me as POV". However, there are many examples of people in the media saying things that don't belong in a wikipedia article, and more specifically, this does not belong in Romney's first paragraph (outside of the intro.) One example of media mistakes is when Dan Rather from CBS news discussed a forged paper, about Bush in the reserves... Just because people are “from the media” doesn’t mean they never make mistakes. CNN had people from Clinton's campaign ask questions, and give a speech at the republican debate. Fox news made bad statistical comparisons between violence in Iraq and California... everything in the media does not deserve to belong in the first paragraph (besides the intro) of presidential candidates... People in the media speculate that Vince Fauster's suicide was a Clinton murder, because he had dirt on Bill, which was in the Media... should I put that speculation in the first article about Hillary Clinton? It is impossible to put everything that was "in the media" within the first paragraph about Romney... the first paragraph would be 500 pages long... you keep repeating yourself that Romney's great-grandparent's polygamy was "in the media". No one disagrees with you, but just because someone mentioned it "in the media" does not mean that it belongs in the first paragraph of the Romney page under the heading "family history and early life". myclob 21:23, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Arzel, this has been in the article for a long time - you don';t like it, you;'ve made that quite clear, but we reached consensus a while ago on this. The appropriate thing to do is to leave it alone while it's being discussed again, not to remove it. I didn't add it, I reinstated consensus wording. Do you get the difference? If a new consensus is reached, that's one thing - but taking it out and saying we should discuss it with it out is edit warring. Tvoz |talk 21:12, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone other than Tvoz disagree with the edits I've suggested?Ferrylodge 21:14, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I didn't say if I agree or disagree with them, and you only posted them a couple of hours ago, so how about waiting for people who have been editing here to read and reply - that's what I said. Tvoz |talk 21:21, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

You said that some of my suggested edits strike you as POV, which did not strike me as an endorsement of those edits. In any event, I am not impatient. I don't think I asked anyone to hurry up and answer. Take all the time you like to study these three paragraphs.Ferrylodge 21:25, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Read the talk page and follow the edits, Ferrylodge - you've just arrived here. I can tell the difference between removing any reference to his polygamous family and qualifying it - you qualified it, and I haven't evaluated your qualification yet, but a couple of others removed it completely, which I think is POV. OK, is that clearer? I'm glad you're not in a rush - I must have misunderstood your question above. And as long as you're asking for the temperature to be turned down, how about reducing the sarcasm inherent in your last sentence? Tvoz |talk 21:41, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I have been following this talk page for awhile, but was prevented from commenting by several distractions. In any event, I will be quiet as a mouse now, so that you can read those three paragraphs that I've proposed to edit. Thanks.Ferrylodge 21:46, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

For the new wording: Cool Hand Ferrylodge myclob Arzel Raymondwinnl said about this article, there is "endless fascination over Mr. Romney's religion and family background" so I would count him for the new wording myclob 21:30, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Against the new wording: Tvoz

Please don't speak for other editors, Myclob - I haven't said what I think of Ferrylodge's wording and Raymondwinn's comments were actually about the talk page discussion, asking why we weren't talking about Romney's Iraq and other positions - he didn't say what he thought should be in the article or not. FInally - I'm sure you know that consensus does not mean vote or majority rule, so there's really no point in counting heads, is there. The idea is to come up with wording that editors agree on - which is why I removed "biography" which was the earlier thing you were complaining about, and what I hope we will achieve on this matter. Tvoz |talk 21:41, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I didn't "speak for them" I gave a direct quote... They spoke for themselves. Also, JGoldwater, StrumTurner, Alanraywiki, and others have complained about too much religion, along with other people who weren't signed in, but it just had their IP address... I guess I don't have to tell you this, because it looks like you argued with them above... But I do think at some point we need to count heads in order to get to a consensus... else how are we going to know if we get a consensus? We have to say it somehow, unless you can read minds, and I was just trying to make an organized way of showing it... I am not speaking for anyone, Arzel, myself, Ferrylodge, and Coolhand Luke have all made direct approval of the new wording, and the other people I mention have complained about too much religion... Thanks for re-naming the biograph section, but as you can see that was the tip of the ice-berg as far as problems I saw with the sitemyclob 21:59, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

myclob 21:50, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

my revision of Ferrylodge's rewording

I agree with most of Ferrylodge's suggestions, but not all, and have reworked it again as below, including the references (may need a one or two more) and making it fewer short paragraphs. As explanation:

1. I've added his siblings;
2. tightened the sentence about his marriage, removing the awkward "and they remain married";
3. I agree we don't need "the LDS Church" but think we need to include the word "Mormon" in the text because the average reader may not know what the formal name refers to - "Latter Day Saints" is not at all as well-known as "Mormon" to the general public;
4. agree about removing Episcopalian and in fact think his wife's conversion is not needed here at all as it is covered in her article;
5. agree about taking out his temple attendance, and the references to his sex life pre and post marriage which I've said a couple of times are not verifiable claims anyway, although I do think it is notable that he did reply to being questioned that way a la Obama and drugs. A footnote about it would be fine with me. It would also be fine with me to remove the "does not drink or smoke" (although I left it in for now) - I see no real point in including that.
6. But here's where I disagree: in looking back through earlier edits and talk archives here and doing a little research, I believe more, not less, is needed about his family background. He is descended from a prominent person in the church and readers should have access to that material in a biography. His campaign literature may not stress it - his supporters may not be comfortable about it - but this is not campaign literature and I'm sure objective editors will agree that it should not be sanitized. I believe that his family background, which has been written about extensively, is relevant to his encyclopedia biography, and I've therefore included it in this proposal. I think it is well placed in "early life and family background" which makes it less prominent than a separate religion section. I could go along with a separate religion/family background section, but if we add it I think we'd need to include something about it in the intro summary to the article above the Table of Contents - and I don't think that will fly. So as a small part of his "early life and family background" section, I think we may be able to leave his religion out of the intro (although FA reviewers might disagree, and I am not opposed to mentioning it in the intro). I reinstated and reworked the religion/background part but did not add, and in fact removed, another extraneous mention of "polygamist Mormons", and kept his denouncement prominent with citation.

So, here's my suggested wording:

Mitt Romney is the son of former Michigan Governor and 1968 presidential candidate George W. Romney and 1970 U.S. Senate candidate Lenore LaFount Romney. His name "Willard" was after hotel magnate J. Willard Marriott, his father's best friend; Mitt, his middle name, comes from a relative who played football for the Chicago Bears. Mitt Romney has three older siblings: Lynn Romney Keenan, Jane Romney Robinson, and G. Scott Romney. Romney has been married to his high school girlfriend, Ann Davies, since 1968. Both are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, (commonly known as Mormons). though Ann was raised Episcopalian (she converted to Mormonism) . They have five married sons — Tagg, Matt, Josh, Ben and Craig — and eleven grandchildren.

Romney is a former bishop and stake president in his church. He does not drink or smoke, and he is a proponent of family values., saying that he abstained from sex until marriage and has since remained faithful to his wife of 39 years. Some of Romney’s ancestors were polygamists, which is a practice that he has denounced. His great-great grandfather, Parley Parker Pratt, was a prominent leader in the Latter Day Saint movement; his paternal great-grandparents were polygamist Mormons who fled to Mexico in 1884 after the U.S. Supreme Court upheld various anti-polygamy laws in 1879. The family abandoned the practice of polygamy with his paternal grandfather and moved back to the United States in 1912 after the outbreak of the Mexican Revolution, when Mitt's father George was a small child.

Again, this is an encyclopedia article, where we have the room and the obligation to clearly examine the life and career of the individual, and sometime that includes looking at his family and his background. I think in the context of the entire article this is not at all excessive or given undue weight, is notable, and makes the piece a more comprehensive biography. Comments? Tvoz |talk 00:35, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I suggest that you please try again. You say that the "family abandoned the practice of polygamy." That implies that Mitt Romney's family at some point adopted that practice, but in reality most half of his great-grandparents never adopted such a practice. Also, your use of the term "paternal great-grandparents" suggests all of his father's grandparents. That's not true, is it? I feel very uncomfortable with your characterization of this family history, as well as your placement at such a prominent location in this article.Ferrylodge 00:42, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

It's not my characterization and you don't have it right, according to the sources I've read. I'll see if that line about abandoning it might be better expressed, but in fact the paternal line of the Romney family did adopt and later abandon the practice of polygamy. And yes, all four of his father's grandparents were polygamous. This is one source that happens to be easier to read than some of the others; others are available too:

Willard Mitt Romney is the son of George Wilcken Romney and Lenore LaFount. George W. Romney was born in Colonia Dublán, Galeana, Chihuahua, Mexico, on 8 July 1907, to Gaskell Romney and Anna Amelia Pratt....

Gaskell Romney was not a polygamist, but he was a son in a polygamist family. Born on 22 September 1871 in St. George, Washington, Utah to Miles Park Romney and Hannah Hood Hill (first wife in a family of five wives), he, with his parents and family, moved to the Mexican colonies in 1884. He married Anna Amelia Pratt on 20 February 1895.

Gaskell, Anna and family moved back to the U.S. in 1912, due to the upheaval attendant on the Mexican Revolution, called the “Exodus” in colony lore.

Anna Amelia Pratt was also raised in a polygamous family. She was born on 6 May 1876, in Salt Lake City, Utah, to Helaman Pratt and Anna Johanna Doratha (“Dora”) Wilcken, second wife in a family of three wives.

So, If I understand this correctly, Mitt's paternal grandfather Gaskell Romney and paternal grandmother Anna Pratt, George's parents, were both born into polygamous families, but they apparently were not polygamous - they were the ones who abandoned their parents' practice. All four of Mitt's paternal great-grandparents - that is, the parents of Gaskell and Anna, his paternal grandparents (i.e., all 4 of George's grandparents) were polygamous. Mitt's maternal line is something else- I am only talking about his paternal line. As for placement, it's family background and history, and our biographies generally try to be somewhat chronological - look at others. If you have a suggestion where this would be better placed, say so - but it seems to me that the logical progression is this way. Tvoz |talk 01:58, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I was not questioning whether all of Mitt Romney's paternal great-grandparents were in polygamous relationships. I was questioning whether they all "fled to Mexico" as you contend.Ferrylodge 02:07, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

If the primary reason for the notability of his great-great-grandparents and his great-grandparents is that they practiced poligomy then they should not be included. I think far too much weight is being given to his distant relatives when they have absolutly no bearing on his current stated beliefs. The wording as such ascribes some wrong doing on Romney because of his ancestors. In essence it reads. "Romney dencouces poligamy, but his ancestors didn't....so judge for yourself. (wink)" Arzel 00:52, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

You're reading something that isn't there. Tvoz |talk 01:58, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

And do most Misplaced Pages biographies include a listing of siblings? Seems like minutae. And, if I recall correctly, Reagan's father was an abusive alcoholic, which isn't mentioned in his Misplaced Pages bio. Certainly such a thing does not become more relevant if it's a great-grandfather instead of a father.Ferrylodge 00:55, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you should read more of them then - of course they include siblings. Try Hillary Rodham Clinton, George Romney, Ron Paul, Lyndon Johnson to give a cross-section. I don;t know anything about why Reagan's father was not identified that way - if there were verifiable, reliable sources, I would include it. And what is being said about Romney's family is just fact - no one is putting a spin on it. This is an encyclopedia, not a campaign piece. Tvoz |talk 01:58, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I'll look at some of the other articles to see how siblings are treated. Are you suggesting that I am trying to make this article into a "campaign piece"? I obviously deny that. Until earlier today, this article falsely implied that Mitt Romney's 8 great-grandparents were polygamous, and falsely implied that they fled to Mexico. And this was supported by a footnote containing a clearly false title about his "polygamy roots" when in fact the title used the words "polygamous branch." That may all be coincidence, and mistake, but it certainly was not I that caused any of it, and fixing it certainly does not amount to campaigning.Ferrylodge 02:18, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Regarding naming all the siblings, I'll withdraw my objection, in view of stuff like this.Ferrylodge 02:48, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Calling for reinforcements

I'm not an expert on wiki etiquette. When there's a controversy at a talk page, is it appropriate to contact people to urge them to join in? If so, is it appropriate to look back upon previous days' discussion at the talk page, and pick out the people who might support your position, in order to notify them only?Ferrylodge 01:25, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

It's perfectly fine to let people know that a subject that they have discussed in the past is being discussed again. This is not a formal proceeding, it is merely a discussion. What would be wrong would be to ask friends who support you elsewhere to come in to an article they have had nothing to do with in order to support your position in this discussion. That's meatpuppetry. Do you have an accusation to make based on your apparent scrutiny of my contribution history? Did I "urge" anyone to do something? Or did I say "whatever your view is on this now" or words to that effect? Tvoz |talk 01:58, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I know that it's "perfectly fine to let people know that a subject that they have discussed in the past is being discussed again." What I was wondering is if it's appropriate to pick and choose among such people, to exclude those who have expressed a different viewpoint from one's own. It's a serious question, and I don't know the answer.Ferrylodge 02:11, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, I guess I have found an answer to my own question. Wikipedians should "not preselect recipients according to their established opinions."Ferrylodge 03:05, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

It's a little more complicated than that, as WP:CANVAS itself explains. First off, this is a "behavioral guideline," not Misplaced Pages policy. I think Tvoz's actions fall under the description of "Examples of friendly notices include: Notifying all editors who substantively edited or discussed the article or project." (myself, for example). This is very different from votestacking or other disruptive behavior. Notmyrealname 03:17, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

If Tvoz notified "all" such editors then there's no problem.Ferrylodge 03:20, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Again, this is not official policy. It would be of serious concern if this were about an RFC vote (at this point no official RFC has been officially made). There's an open discussion currently on WP:BLPN, so it's not like this isn't going to get some attention. Remember to assume good faith.Notmyrealname 03:29, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Everyone likes to win arguments, especially if they sincerely believe they've got the better arguments. But as a simple matter of fairness, it's not fair to quietly notify only people who were previously on your side. Doesn't matter if it's a guideline or a policy, IMHO. Anyway, I'm not blasting anyone for this. I'm just kindly requesting for next time.Ferrylodge 03:38, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

a lawyer?

Rudy's page says that Rudy is a businessman, although I hardly think charging people to talk about septermber 11th counts as a business... Romney graduated at the top of his Harvard Law school, and passed the bar exam, does that make him a lawyer?myclob 02:39, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Also I tried to make the first two sentenses more like Rudy's (I thought rudy's sounded pretty good)... Thanks to whoever helped with the duplication that I left, and tell me if you think it sounds awkward at all... or feel free to work on it...myclob 02:39, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

The key to whether he's an attorney (or was an attorney) is whether he passed the bar exam, and if so in what state. The article doesn't mention that, and such info would be very relevant and useful. Even if he passed the bar in one or more states, a lawyer still has to pay annual dues to remain a lawyer, and I have no idea if Mitt has done that.Ferrylodge 03:01, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Relevance of Polygamy

Just checked back in on this page after a long absence. Look, the question of whether it is relevant to include the information that some of Romney's great grandparents were polygamists and fled to Mexico (where his father was born) should really be considered beyond dispute at this point. By Misplaced Pages's standards, the issue is whether it is published in reliable third-party sources. If you Google "Mitt Romney Polygamy" links to these and the following stories:

1. Polygamy Prominent in GOP Presidential Hopeful Mitt Romney's Family Tree from Fox News, Feb 24, 2007
2. Mitt Romney's Evangelical Problem The Washington Monthly, September 2005
3. The march of the Mormons The Guardian, Feb 27, 2006. The article says "...Mitt Romney's father, George, an automobile executive and a three-term Republican governor of Missouri who was born in a polygamous Mormon community in Mexico."
4. Romney Family Tree Has Polygamy Branch - White House candidate Mitt Romney condemns polygamy, but his great-grandfather had 5 wives CBS News, Feb 24, 2007
5. Romney Family Tree Has Polygamy Branch ABC News, Feb 24, 2007
6. The Making of Mitt Romney Boston Globe, June 25, 2007
7. Mitt Romney on 60 Minutes with Mike Wallace - Mormonism 60 Minutes interview on YouTube.

This is a VERY abbreviated list. The mainstream media from all sides of the political spectrum has decided that this is an important part of Romney's biography. He has discussed it publicly on many occasions. It seems to me that it belongs in the "family background" section of his bio, but if others think it belongs elsewhere I won't lose any sleep over it. If people still disagree, it can be brought up on the WP:BLPN, but experienced editors will surely agree that this has met the threshold for inclusion. Notmyrealname 02:54, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I've said all along that I have no objection to inserting a sentence like the following, with appropriate footnotes: "Some of Romney’s ancestors were polygamists, which is a practice that he has denounced." The issue here is giving this stuff appropriate weight, as well as accuracy. I don't know that all four of Romney's paternal great-grandparents "fled to Mexico." If so, then maybe we could briefly mention that too. But I have much difficulty justifying lengthy discussion about distant ancestors, especially when they were somewhat disreputable. Many presidents have ancestors who were aboard the Mayflower, or who were criminals, or who were all kinds of things, but that doesn't mean Misplaced Pages biographies should give every detail, regardless of what the mass media says.Ferrylodge 03:14, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Romney is also descended from Rebecca Nurse, who was hanged for witchcraft in 1692 after the Salem witch trials, and of Anne Marbury Hutchinson, religious reformer, heretic and a founder of Rhode Island. FWIW. - Nunh-huh 03:19, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

It might be worth just a sentence or two (we'll have to watch WP:UNDUE) under the Mormonism or family history section. I would not be against saying something like "His ancestors were known polygamists, though Romney has denounced the practice." The Evil Spartan 04:10, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Restored family background section

I restored the family background section because I have seen no justifiable reason for it's removal. It is sourced, factual and written in a neutral tone. It explains why Romney's father was born in Mexico. Today's blitzkrieg removed this section. I would like to see some good explanations for why Romney's family background does not belong in the family background section. Turtlescrubber 04:06, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

No, you have restored false information. Contrary to your recent article edit, four of Romney's great-grandparents were not in polygamous relationships. Additionally, one of the footnotes that you have jammed back in the article has a falsified title ("polygamous roots" was not in the actual Associated Press title). Additionally, I have seen no support for the notion that all of his four polygamous great-grandparents fled to Mexico. All of this has already been mentioned above, but Turtlescrubber thinks that false info in Misplaced Pages articles is fine?

Additionally, info about his great-grandparents is extremely remote, and is being given vastly undue weight by Turtlescrubber. As mentioned above, many presidents have ancestors who were aboard the Mayflower, which explains how they got to America, but that doesn't mean such info needs to be mentioned (much less at great length at the beginning) of Misplaced Pages articles on Presidents.Ferrylodge 04:16, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Romneys father being born in Mexico because of his grandparents is perfectly analogous to the Mayflower. Romneys father has no connection to Romney according to Ferrylodge.

Ferrylodge prefers to blank entire sections instead of fixing the wording in question to match the source.

In addition, Ferrylodge prefers to be combative on the talk page instead of discussing things like a reasonable person. This is what Ferrylodge prefers. Jeez dude. Calm yourself. Turtlescrubber 04:24, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Cease-fire, guys. No reason to get angry, as both users seem to be editing in good faith. In any case, I don't find the text to have WP:WEASEL problems at all. Ferrylodge, perhaps you could change the text to say, "several of Romney's great-grandparents". Just as a note, I didn't necessarily read the text to mean all of his great-grandparents (it seems unlikely that all 8 would go through the same situation). The Evil Spartan 04:28, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

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