Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 12:55, 2 December 2007

New proposal

Based on comments on the Durova arbcom from Mackensen and Jehochman. • Lawrence Cohen 19:04, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Just to reitarate my comments in the arbitration decision - I think the copyright issue is a cop-out. Raul654 (talk) 19:08, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree. The real issue is incompatibility with Misplaced Pages's GFDL licensing. "Only public domain resources can be copied without permission—this does not include most web pages or images." - Jehochman 19:38, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. This is, rather, a privacy issue, and a matter of courtesy. In particular, I don't want editors to be looking over their shoulder when they give confidential opinions about Misplaced Pages matters. We can do without the kind of witch-hunting atmosphere that would result from relaxing out longstanding policy against the posting of private communications. It would be heaven for trolls, and not much fun for anybody else. --Tony Sidaway 19:29, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

It seems some of the Arbiters and a lot of the community disagree, though. Do you think User:!!'s posting here of a summary and snippets of Durova's evidence was acceptable? While Giano's copy/paste was Oversighted and removed, this posting from !! has stood. Clearly, if some reposting wasn't acceptable of private correspondence, this would have been removed as well. • Lawrence Cohen 19:37, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't have a particular view on how we word the policy yet, but I don't want to see people posting private emails on Misplaced Pages without good reason, and it's obvious to me (and from the evidence on the proposed decision page, to the committee) that posting Durova's email was a side-issue to the fact that she blocked an editor of high reputation whose behavior wasn't at all disruptive, and failed to justify the block except by vague references to discussions with unnamed individuals.

Obviously it's better to discuss potential blocks beforehand, there's nothing to be criticised in such activity, but if one does then block one had better be prepared to justify the action openly by producing evidence of user misconduct on-wiki, except in rare cases involving oversight, checkuser and other Foundation-controlled activity. I don't think a written policy on this matter is going to get much traction at dispute resolution, since it obviously isn't in Misplaced Pages's interests to condone the posting of confidential material. Each case, in other words, will be judged on its merits by the Committee. There's nothing we can write here that would be a definitive or even reliable guideline on when and how it is okay to post confidential communications, private correspondence, or whatever else that is normally treated as private. --Tony Sidaway 20:03, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Public posting on Misplaced Pages

Much of this is simply lifted right from Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/Durova_and_Jehochman/Proposed_decision#Everyone_else, to start it out. • Lawrence Cohen 19:27, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Oppose

To the extent that this has validity it is redundant with the proposed arbitration decision or the broader Misplaced Pages:Confidential evidence. Durova 19:51, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

To be fair this doesn't apply just to Misplaced Pages political or dispute resolution, but outside and other private correspondence. Also, ArbCom doesn't make policy, right? • Lawrence Cohen 20:01, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

There's also a problem that this proposal appears to be giving legal advice. Durova 22:05, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

We can fix it. - Jehochman 22:09, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Check now. • Lawrence Cohen 22:09, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Delete

This proposed guideline does not add anything useful and is covered by common sense. I don't think it is needed. Tim Vickers (talk) 19:52, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Between common sense, the ArbCom's decision in the Durova case, and things said elsewhere I don't think we need an entire policy on this. Also agreed that the rationale isn't great - it's not a copyright matter. Wikidemo (talk) 20:00, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Instruction creep. Tim Vickers (talk) 20:02, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

True, but let's see how it turns out. We could learn something. --Tony Sidaway 20:05, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

To reply to the original Tim Vickers' post, yes this is just common sense. However, some Wikipedians don't have enough of it and claim that there are some "rules" involved and whistle blowing is sanctionable. It is sad that we have to codify ethics into policies. The reason we have to do it is that some don't have enough of common sense. --Irpen (talk) 20:09, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

You do not write policies to describe common-sense actions. That is classic instruction creep type-thinking. Tim Vickers (talk) 20:17, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, what is common sense here? Obviously posting refactored or excerpted private correspondence is completely accepted. Giano's copy/paste posting was Oversighted by Cary Bass (or someone else?) from his talk page. However, !!'s posting of the exact same material in an alternate format was completely acceptable as public ArbCom evidence. • Lawrence Cohen 20:20, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

If it was such common sense, we wouldn't be having a raging debate that lasted several days already. - Jehochman 20:23, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

The argument about letters and e-mails being covered by copyright law is pretty absurd. Copyrights are only intended to protect people from unfair commercial exploitation of their work. If every time you forward an e-mail from one person to another you break the law, then the law is an ass. This is simply a matter of politeness and social norms. Tim Vickers (talk) 20:31, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

What is your view on the fact that Durova's email, as copy/pasted by Giano, is considered unacceptable, but the alternate version of the exact same material as posted by User:!! in evidence is acceptable? • Lawrence Cohen 20:33, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Neither is illegal under copyright law. I am not familiar with the circumstances, so I don't know if either was a justified breach of our personal expectations that correspondence remains private. If it was wrong, this was a lapse of ethics. People should apply their common sense to each situation, this is not something you can write an effective or useful policy about. Tim Vickers (talk) 20:42, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

You'll never hear me say "instruction creep," but I think we are better not trying to fix the mercury here. I think we end up with bad results no matter what. Anything, accurate or not, will act as proof of what someone is allowed to do and simultaneously used to beat on people for doing what they should do. In other words, there is an element of WP:BEANS involved, and it also leads us to offering yet another alphabet soup citation that will get hurled with more violence than sense. I understand the impulse behind the page creation, but I do not think that we can do it, and I agree with Tim Vickers that we do not need to. Therefore, without the need, and with every possibility of disaster, I have to say that it's trouble all the way around. I applaud the effort and the impulse, but I just don't think we do much good trying to weigh such things. Geogre (talk) 21:52, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Modifications

I made several modifications. First, I added the plain obvious thing that we are dealing with the social norms and ethics here rather than copyrights and other law-related issues. Unless disclosure violates a contractual pledge and constitutes a contract breach (a legal issue), there is no legalese here to talk about. We are dealing purely with ethics-related issue here and this should be stated from the onset.

Second, I eliminated the suggestion that was implying that posting to Misplaced Pages Review is more acceptable than to Misplaced Pages. Posting anywhere is unacceptable in most save very few circumstances and when those circumstances are met, we are better off cleaning our own house than aiding WR in any way.

Third, I modified the ArbCom section to show that snitching to ArbCom is different from posting to public but less different than some think. Forwarding private stuff to ArbCom violates privacy too. The main issue is whether the violation is warranted rather than the method of violation (ArbCom, Misplaced Pages post or Misplaced Pages Review post)

Finally I added a reminder how to avoid any embarrassment whatsoever. Has Durova done nothing inappropriate, have our #admin IRCers said nothing inappropriate, we would not be having all these rage in the first place. --Irpen (talk) 20:35, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Excellent changes. WAS 4.250 (talk) 21:33, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree, and I'm dismayed to see some user or other employing logging out to try to evade 3RR in reverting. Geogre (talk) 21:53, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Durova arbcom in see also

I readded them (Jehochman had pulled them out earlier). At the least, the link to !!'s evidence section seems directly relevant, given that was a clearly acceptable use of private correspondence on Misplaced Pages. • Lawrence Cohen 21:19, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

General cluelessness of the original version

It ignores not only a core Misplaced Pages principle, respect for anonymity, but also many previous arbcom statements like email is outside their domain and that evidence that reveals identities should be submitted as confidential evidence. This was the most ill-advise bit of pseudopolicy in some time. I've fixed it to reflect how things are traditionally done. 64.237.4.140 (talk) 21:34, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Where did my bare bones initial draft or the subsequent expansions by Irpen, WAS, and Jehochman advocate or enable outing identities in any way? Please cite the text that did so? Also, please remain WP:CIVIL, which is mandatory. Thanks! • Lawrence Cohen 21:36, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Not only was it flat wrong you apparently didn't take the time necessary to actually find out the preferred method for confidential evidence, but it was a recipe for disruption and legal threats. 64.237.4.140 (talk) 21:40, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Please login to your account. Your acting like that is most disrespectful. --Irpen (talk) 21:41, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Tony's changes, and anon IP

Starting a section to discuss this before we start warring in a silly fashion. Lets figure out consensus, rather than going by lone opinions. • Lawrence Cohen 21:34, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Whoever it is is now susceptible to a block. Let's please avoid such horrors. No one benefits from peevishness, and I simply hate touching that button. Geogre (talk) 21:54, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Several of the changes make a lot of sense. It certainly isn't ok to revert to a grammatically incorrect version. More importantly

• telling people "don't put things in writing that you don't want to turn up" is silly. It doesn't belong in any policy document. Putting it there only allows people to wikilawyer after they do wrong.

• the "secretive culture of the arbcomm" doesn't belong in a policy document - culture is culturel it's subject to change. We can't make rules based on the culture of a small group, a culture that we can't control. In addition, of course, it's unverifiable. Guettarda (talk) 22:08, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Amazing that you wanted to go back to the anon's version, though, instead of leaving the changes that make a lot of sense. Saying that one should never write in e-mail what would does not want to be public is an ancient nugget of wisdom. The point is that nothing may be used to reason on-Wiki actions privately. Misplaced Pages was not set up that way. It was set up on the model of the open slate. Therefore, retreating to irc to have "private" talk about things to be done on Misplaced Pages is inappropriate, but so is insisting on all discussion being by e-mail. The specifics surrounding the Durova case is that she uses e-mail for positively everything. This means another attempt at irresponsibility, or at least unindictability, and an attempt at making one's actions seem more mysterious, more magical, and more impersonal. The attempt here is to say, "E-mail won't give you those things." If you use it inappropriately, count on someone making it public. The same is true of irc. The same is true of blogs. The same is true of anything used to increase opacity. Never think that you can be private and secret if you send it or show it. That's the long and short of "secret" evidence. I think the statement should be done in blinking letters. Geogre (talk) 22:14, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

A small addition to what Geogre said. That ArbCom has a secretive culture is an undeniable fact. Saying so is not its criticism in any way. Both its bashers and its fans agree on fact. The matter at hand is why forwarding to ArbCom is less privacy invasive and the reason why is the ArbCom's secrecy. Oh, and thanks for logging in. --Irpen (talk) 22:20, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Off wiki

We're not regulating off-wiki conduct. If users want to violate each other's privacy by forwarding emails, that not our concern, up until the moment they post on wiki. - Jehochman 22:16, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Expectation of privacy, mail forwared to ArbCom

I agree with this edit. If I send a private email to Irpen about George, and Irpen turns and mails it to ArbCom, Irpen has now breached the privacy between us by bringing who knows how many third parties into my private conversation. The same principle would apply whether Irpen forwarded that mail to ArbCom, User:Whomever, or his mother. • Lawrence Cohen 22:18, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

This is bullshit

We do not publish provate or confidential information. That's why ArbCom publishes an email address. Most especially, referencing a current case, we don't do it when the information is already with ArbCom in its entirety. And we most absolutely 100% especially do not do it when the primary purpose is to harass, intimidate or humiliate someone, for example by blackmailing them, as happened this time out. Which is why the proposal as written was a crock. Guy (Help!) 00:55, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I was working on a rewrite at the same time Guy, I've posted that too now. I removed all reference to copyright, mentioned that it's ok to post with the sender's permission, and I also mentioned that the AC can permit the forwarding of correspondence where it considers it appropriate. I think this may be more cognizant with established principles, but your wording looks pretty good too. --bainer (talk) 01:03, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

We do not publish private info, true, but only because it is socially unacceptable. For the very same reason, it is totally acceptable and appropriate under exceptional circumstances. The reason of what "happened this time out" is that this sneaky email was written in the first place rather than that it was forwarded.

As far as the policy goes, it is only clear about revealing RL identities. Show me the provision under which an editor who receives an email threat and posts it to ANI to request an action should be blocked. --Irpen (talk) 01:09, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

User:evrik was blocked for a month, later reduced to a week, for posting on ANI an email he believed was harassing. I believe the posting has been oversighted, but the matter came up in regard to a RfAr. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:10, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Guy, you're spot on in your analysis and a little rude with the language, both as I've come to expect. I approve of both short versions, and don't approve of the philosophizing meta-speaking long version, which seems to leave some room for people to take it upon themselves to decide that it's okay. Everything here is a social decision. Language is a social act. That doesn't mean we can't take an absolute approach to banning breaches of the social code. Allow people to publish private email at will according to their own determination that the sender did something wrong and all hell will break loose. No, a harassing or threatening email should not be published either. The best approach would be to forward it to a trusted admin, or else post in AN/I that you've received a threat without reposting it, and take it from there. Wikidemo (talk) 01:20, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Guy's version is a big improvement. I have doubts about attempting to post private e-mail with the sender's permission, since publication here entails GDFL license. That seems like something Wikimedia's counsel should decide. Still seems like instruction creep since the Copyright policy could be amended and that's watched a lot more closely. Durova 02:00, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

JzG's version is the only accurate version, previous versions were way out of step with established practice. Furthermore, the edit warring and piling-on by the originators of this proposal on those who tried to correct it was also way over the line and disruptive. I'm not going to speculate on motives publicly for creating such an obviously baseless proposal, but for anyone familiar with current disputes, there's little doubt as to the intent. This page bears careful watching for now on. FeloniousMonk (talk) 05:16, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Versions prior to JzG's version were the accurate versions; JzG's version and similar recent versions are way out of step with current community consensus. Furthermore, the edit warring and piling-on by JzG and his meat puppets on those who tried to correctly represent current consensus is also way over the line and disruptive. I'm not going to speculate on motives publicly for edit warring in such an obviously baseless proposal, but for anyone familiar with current disputes, there's little doubt as to the intent. This page bears careful watching for now on. WAS 4.250 06:04, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Any coin has two sides.

I have added the other side of this one to the proposal. What happens off-wiki, stays off-wiki, unless you ARE willing to bring it on-wiki. —Random832 04:58, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Ah, sorry I just womped it. Could you try to rephrase that? My concern is that use of private information is no big deal. People can consult tarot cards if they like, so long as they can explain their actions clearly and justify what they are doing with proper evidence. - Jehochman 05:02, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

But when they refuse to do so (or they lie), there should not be sanctions against someone, who happens to know what their reasons actually were, disclosing it in their stead.—Random832 05:03, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

That seems to be the question of the day. Let us see how it is decided. We can also refer to Misplaced Pages:Confidential evidence that may already cover the point you wish to make. - Jehochman 05:12, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to propose the wording "If a user refuses, on request, to disclose the basis for an on-wiki administrative action (stating that the basis was something on OTRS, a privately-made arbcom decision, checkuser data, or an OFFICE action is sufficient disclosure), it is presumptively concluded that there was no basis beyond 'i felt like doing it'." - basically something to clearly get across "private evidence is no evidence" (Except, of course, for arbcom/otrs/office/checkuser). —Random832 06:14, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

If that belongs anywhere (and I don't think it does) it is not this page. --bainer (talk) 06:31, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Question

User:Bcorr/Plautus, acceptable or not? How's it different from what Giano did? (Note: I do, for the record, think that this is acceptable, but a lot of the reasons people are opposed to what Giano did would also apply here.) I think making a policy that says it is flat-out NEVER acceptable to post the contents of an e-mail is a mistake. —Random832 17:52, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes or no, is it acceptable under what you intend this policy to be? —Random832 21:53, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I think that page clearly violates the community norm against posting emails. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:21, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I think that page, and the fact that it has stood unchallenged for three and a half years, is a testament to the non-existence of any such community norm. This was at best an opportunistic attack on Giano, and at worst an attempt to prevent Durova's actions from being scrutinized.—Random832 00:59, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

User sub pages aren't seen much, so I don't think that is representative. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:02, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Why I wrote the first draft - can you guys please just explain why one is acceptable, the other not?

I agree that straight direct posting (in its entirety) of an entire mail, *unless* its somehow open source, or posted to a public, open-source list, *or* you have permission is not a good idea at all. However, User:!!'s posting of excerpts and analysis of Durova's email in the ArbCom evidence clearly acceptable. Giano's posting was removed repeatedly, and finally oversighted, but the !! evidence was not touched. Why was the !! version acceptable? My view of the disconnect is that there is clearly room to do this, quoting a mail, analyzing it, and demonstrating who sent it. By that token, if User:Blah mailed me an offensive mail, threatening me, it would be wrong to directly paste it into an ANI report, but I don't see why it would be wrong to say User:Blah sent me an offensive harassing mail, with the gist of it/summation, on ANI. Please help me understand? • Lawrence Cohen 18:41, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

The !! version is acceptable and Giano's is not because Giano is an easy target and no-one has the guts to attack !!. You're confusing political maneuvering with a consistently-applicable principle. —Random832 21:55, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Posting an email in full and quoting it directly both violate the presumption of privacy that the writer expects. Summarizing the contents of an email is different, and is allowable. Emails, IRC logs, forum postings, and other off-site communications should not be quoted as evidence in ArbCom cases unless they contain harassment that is part of the case. In those rare circumstances the material should be submitted to the ArbCom privately. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:44, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

So why was !!'s evdidence not removed? Lawrence Cohen • I support Giano. 22:48, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Do you think it should be? If so I suggest asking a clerk to do it. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:22, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Thats a great non-answer. Maybe there should be a policy proposal that any and all policies are applied at all times evenly, for all users. Lawrence Cohen • I support Giano. 23:44, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Is your question about how this proposal should be written, or about how it should be enforced it in a specific, active incident? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:31, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

My reaction

I have drafted a caveat on my userpage stating that by communicating with me off-Wiki any person is giving me permission to disseminate any content received, including copies of other correspondence contained therin (whose permission to allow use is assumed given to the correspondent). If you don't wish your "private" messages to me to be posted... stay away. LessHeard vanU 00:08, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that a disclaimer like that would have any standing. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:26, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

You should be easily contactable by email. Please don't do anything to deter people who may need to contact you over an edit or conduct issue. --Tony Sidaway 00:33, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I've removed it. It represents a curtailment of the general ability of users to contact administrators, which, per long-standing community practice on the "contactability" of admins, is not acceptable. --bainer (talk) 00:43, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

The person displaying that disclaimer is an admin? Yikes! --Tony Sidaway 00:52, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

People are free to contact me, and make any points they wish, by email (or whatever means) - but if they are going to violate Policy, or the Law, or Good Taste then I shall not allow bleatings of "privacy" or "copyright" to disallow me bringing the matter to the attention of the community. It is made clear near to the "mail this user". People bringing legitimate concerns privately may do so without fear. LessHeard vanU 01:03, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think we can post "caveats" that allow us to violate policies. This is no more valid than if I were to post a caveat on my talk page announcing that WP:NPA doesn't apply to me. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:30, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

There is no violation of privacy in a cyberspace if that cyberspace is clearly labeled as a non-private space. WAS 4.250 06:17, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Nope, but my caveat makes clear that I will not allow a policy of "Private Correspondence" to over-rule my ability to combat other violations of the rules and policies. If someone conducts a personal attack on me or a third party in a "private" message then my admin duty is clear - the caveat clarifies that. I am not violating policy in the wording, I am stating that by contacting me the sender gives permission to disseminate such information (which would include the identity of the sender if forwarding other persons sensitive material). To quote Burke, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing". I don't intend to be muzzled in bringing violations to the attention of others. LessHeard vanU 10:46, 1 December 2007 (UTC) ps. my caveat gives me the ability, but not the requirement. It is a matter of judgement.

You appear to be saying that if someone wrote you messages like "You're a jerk", or "I'm actually a sock puppet and my other account is X", that you'd be justified in posting them verbatim in public, including the email address and IP headers. And that this is your right regardless of the views of the Misplaced Pages community, just becasue you have a disclaimer buried on a user page. Those alone seem like problematic issues. It leaves me wondering what would happen if the community disagreed that the email you posted was actually harassing, or felt that the sock puppeteer wasn't using them abusively and so shouldn't have had them disclosed. That approach seems to require too many value judgments, and it's simpler and easier all the way around to simply prohibit posting private emails across the board, with no allowance for opting-out via disclaimers. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 11:05, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

If someone messaged me to comment that they think I'm a jerk I would WP:IGNORE it, if someone admitted to being an abusive sockpuppet I would make a request at WP:SSP, or contact ArbCom, to ascertain the facts - as I would without this policy. You mistake my acting to make disclosure permissable to a declaration that I will in every and all instances post the contents of a message. Not so. I am reserving the right to post the material if I believe the situation warrants it.