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| :Hi, let's save the presumptions about other editors and stick the discussing the article. If you're referring to the statement ''I think that's an indictment of the church'' that is a direct quote. I'm happy to button that with a follow up statement that now the church allows openly gay ministers or even now the church allows gay ministers as long as they keep their sexuality covert if we have a reference supporting it. ] 17:11, 24 October 2007 (UTC) | :Hi, let's save the presumptions about other editors and stick the discussing the article. If you're referring to the statement ''I think that's an indictment of the church'' that is a direct quote. I'm happy to button that with a follow up statement that now the church allows openly gay ministers or even now the church allows gay ministers as long as they keep their sexuality covert if we have a reference supporting it. ] 17:11, 24 October 2007 (UTC) | ||
| Ok. I'll keep my presumptions in check if you promise to do the same. It may be a direct quote, but it's a gratiutious slam that has no relevance. It is relevant that Lonnie USED to tell people he WAS gay as part of his testimony. But not for the reasons you probably think. He felt it was a sign of God's power that he could deliver someone from such a WRETCHED lifestyle. That WAS his opinion, you know. The fact that he later backslid notwithstanding. Personally, I would include that in the article, but I know it would make you cry, so I'm cool keeping it out. I don't have an agenda other than to make the article NPOV which it most certainly was NOT until I began contributing. In the 70's and early 80's the church was a little creeped out about homosexuality (as was much of society), esp the male variety. Remember, this was before LGBT people got in high positions within the entertainment community and began their non-stop blitzkrieg to the point where now it seems that every show has to have at least one gay character. | |||
| So, Lonnie deleted that part from his testimony. That is all that is important here. Whether some guy interprets this deletion as a sign the church is/was full of homophobic meanies is UTTERLY IRRELEVANT in this regard. ] (]) 13:50, 10 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
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Adding Homosexuality Revealed To Church Officials Section
I've done more research as suggested as a follow up to the edit warring and am documenting that work here for future reference.
In The Orange County Weekly article "The First Jesus Freak," which chronicles Frisbee's life, Matt Coker writes, "Chuck Smith Jr. says he was having lunch with Wimber one day when he asked how the pastor reconciled working with a known homosexual like Frisbee. Wimber asked how the younger Smith knew this. Smith said he’d received a call from a pastor who’d just heard a young man confess to having been in a six-month relationship with Frisbee. Wimber called Smith the next day to say he’d confronted Frisbee, who openly admitted to the affair and agreed to leave." Benjiboi 20:57, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
documenting the family section as well
To Lonnie's Family
In a 2005 interview by British Columbian Christian News film reviewer Peter Chattaway with David Di Sabatino, the documentary director of "Frisbee: The Life and Death of a Hippie Preacher" they spoke about addressing Lonnie's homosexuality with his family. "I brought to light some things that not a lot of people knew. I've been in rooms with his family where I've had to tell them that he defined himself as gay, way back. Nobody knew that. There's a lot of hubris in that, to come to people who loved him and prayed for him, and to stand there and say, "You didn't really know this, but..." Benjiboi 22:09, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
To Calvary Chapel
In the same interview Di Sabatino also stated, "His early testimony at Calvary Chapel was that he had come out of the homosexual lifestyle, but he felt like a leper because a lot of people turned away from him after that, so he took it out of his testimony—and I think that's an indictment of the church." Benjiboi 03:16, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Right. And what would a Wikpipedia article be without bringing up at least ONE indictment against 'The Church'?71.238.68.127 15:03, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
I'll balance this article out with the REALITY that, by including Soulforce in this documentary, Di Sabatino has indicted HIMSELF as one willing to use the TRAGIC death of Frisbee as a Trojan Horse (sorry Soulforce lol!) to yet again attack the church's stand that homosexuality is a sin. 71.238.68.127 15:03, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
- I'm hesitant to reveal my religion and spiritual life but I will state clearly that Christian or other religious affiliation POVs need to be checked at the door as well as an acceptance that we all have POVs and need to keep them in check, let the facts speak for themselves and if we include an opinion or research it should be sourced as to who's opinion or research and we should use reliable sources to do so. Regardless if one religion thinks homosexuality is sinful or whatever that POV-pushing is not improving the article and will get removed, if not by me, by another editor soon enough. Frisbee was both gay and the
founder(correcting my mistake, he's considered the charismatic spark) of two charismatic Christian denominations, this is a great study in contradictions and, I believe, has been addressed in the article appropriately. Soulforce's inclusion in the documentary, to me, shows that similar to wikipedia there is balancing information presented and he let's the many sources speak for themselves as should we. I think some of your contributions presented neutrally could potentially improve the article but adding statements such as Di Sabatino has made other unfair and hostile accusations against Christianity casting doubt on his ability to objectively handle the material.; Had Lonnie chosen to separate himself from the practice of homosexuality, as he had been urged to by the Christian community, he likely would have never contracted AIDS and “Samson—a man who knew the powerful anointing of God’s light all would make wonderful contributions to a church bulletin but have little room in an encyclopedia. Benjiboi 21:07, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
- I will state clearly that LGBT or other social engineering POVs need to be checked at the door as well as an acceptance that we all have POVs and need to keep them in check.
You have repeatedly TWISTED the truth to contort to your LGBT worldview. It is just as much an influence as anyone's religion. You don't get to play the game that you are purely objective while anyone with a religious/spiritual background is addled with a bias.
You called my reporting that Lonnie was molested 'slanderous.' But it was Di Sabatino, who you are ALL TOO WILLING to use as a NPOV source, who revealed this truth and key to why Lonnie became a homosexual. http://www.consolationchamps.com/2005/06/14/who-was-lonnie-frisbee/ "Di Sabatinosays that Lonnie was RAPED as an eight-year-old child "
The quote 'Samson—a man who knew the powerful anointing of God’s light' came from Chuck Smith. A man that your side wants to slander as being 'hurtful' to Lonnie. It was spoken at his funeral as a tribute and it PERFECTLY captures the reality that was Lonnie's life. This is irrespective of Di Sabatino's cutaway to Lonnie's ex who apparently didn't get the analogy. But it is very apt. And it's going back in the article. Quit editing to satisfy your compunction to 'punish' Christianity for not accepting the practice of homosexuality.
Chuck Smith's primary beef with Lonnie was over DOCTRINAL issues.
The two had different takes about how much Charismatic influences the church service would have. That's why there was the rift.
But you dishonestly make it seem like it was over Lonnie being 'gay.'
Lonnie never self-Id'd as gay. He struggled AGAINST that temptation just like he would struggle against any other SINFUL predilection. His battles with other church leaders were egocentric turf wars as is sadly all too common.
This narrative that the church shunned him at his most needy hour but the brave gay soul found it in his heart to forgive the heartless hateful Christians on his death bed may make for a good LIFETIME movie. But it has no place in an encyclopedia.
There is NOTHING confusing as you imply in the life of Lonnie Frisbee. He was raped as a child and that early HORRIFIC influence was VERY difficult for him to overcome. Even after he became a born again believer, he struggled.
It's only confusing for the confused.
Lonnie was a man with a weakness. Just like Sampson. Lonnie tried very hard, with intermittent success, to overcome that weakness. In the end, it wound up exposing him to disease and death.
You write "Frisbee was both gay and the founder of two charismatic Christian denominations, this is a great study in contradictions and, I believe, has been addressed in the article appropriately."
THAT IS THE LGBT narrative of what happened. It is utterly at odds with the truth but it's the one you are trying to FORCE the facts to fit, even when they don't.
For you to call Lonnie gay is the same as calling Sampson bald. Defining the man by his weakness. That is unacceptable in a NPOV encyclopedia.
To stipulate that Lonnie was 'the founder' of two charismatic Christian denominations demonstrates you know nothing of Christianity and even less of the Vineyard or Calvary. Lonnie was certainly instrumental in empowering those ministries, and it serves your purpose as a gay activist trying to shred the truth to elevate him to a 'founder.'
But he founded neither nor EVER claimed to.
There is NO debate on this.
Here is the proof: http://gaddabout.blogspot.com/2005/11/vineyard-mythology.html
Lonnie himself REBUKES THIS LIE in this video at the 35:00 mark http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6833129779160574833
I'll grant you this...he seems VERY gay in this video. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.238.68.127 (talk) 07:18, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Check this out - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0-r4XbTJrw
I'm surprised you didn't appoint Frisbee 'Founder' of Kathryn Kuhlman's ministry as well. lol
That fact that you would plaintively stipulate such brazen untruths makes me think your bias is so great that it disqualifies you from working on this piece.
I would respectfully ask you to find other articles to edit and refrain from contorting this article any longer.
Thanks ```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.238.68.127 (talk) 05:06, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
- It all boils down to SOURCE? REFERENCE? PROOF? DATA? which you have not provided. You add things to the article without adding any sources, references or proof whatsoever. Benjiboi's reverts of your addition of unsourced content is warranted, valid and correct, whether you like it or not. You want to cite Misplaced Pages policy about 3RR but don't follow policy yourself. You can't have it both ways. When it comes to unsourced content, Misplaced Pages is not a democracy. Further, if you continue to add unsourced content to this article, someone will be forced to request a ban against you. Now, contribute to the article with sources or leave it alone. -- ALLSTAR ECHO 05:46, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
"It all boils down to SOURCE? REFERENCE? PROOF? DATA?'"
No it doesn't. It all boils down to this LGBT editor wanting to DISTORT the truth about someone he is UTTERLY UNQUALIFIED to understand.
I just included my source for Lonnie's molestation. I also included a source for Chuck Smith's quote about Lonnie and Sampson.
I've edited here a long time. Your ruinous threats don't scare me. Your attempts to game the system and accuse me of slander are in DIRECT VIOLATION of Misplaced Pages standards.
Now quit harrassing me and especially quit pretending to be objective.```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.238.68.127 (talk) 05:50, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
This source - http://fixedreference.org/en/20040424/wikipedia/Lonnie_Frisbee
is a much more HONEST appraisal of Lonnie's life. It's what you get when you rid the article of all the LGBT bias that's currently tainting it.
It validates that Lonnie's battle AGAINST homosexuality was rooted in his HORRIFIC childhood rape incident and that his split from Calvary was over DOCTRINAL issues that LGBT people would have no clue about and NOT because he was allegedly gay.
Now call in about ten other liberal wikipedia editors to pretend to be neutral as they try to protect these distortions by gaming the system while accusing me of what you guys are guilty of -POV. I've been through this before countless times... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.238.68.127 (talk) 05:56, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
- Hi again, although all very inspiring (in ways you probably didn't intend) the valid references above have already been used in the articles (see WP:RS) and the final reference being a page copy of the article we're actually writing from several years ago. Also I never claimed, and will correct if someone else did, that Frisbee founded any churches as I found nothing in the many videoes and writings that claimed he did, instead it clearly designates him as being the charismatic spark' igniting two denominations and influencing countless others. Benjiboi 21:02, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Source?
"As part of his ostracism from his former churches, his work was maligned"
Can someone provide a source for this? It's possible this happened as sometimes, in an effort to move on, people in church's will castigate their former leaders. It's kind of like ripping on an old girlfriend. lol But the inference here is that, because he wound up giving in to homosexual behavior, his work was trashed.
That's a far more INSIDIOUS charge and needs to be bolstered by facts if it is true which I doubt.
- It is true and I've added the source. Benjiboi 20:45, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Raped as an 8-year old
Sheesh! Now that i've dug through the voluminous pile of accusations I've found there is a reference that can be used for this, although it's blog format it's actually a xtian-based interview that we're already using as it's the full interview with the documentarian. Was it so hard for you to say there is a reliable source and here it is? It was correct for the content about someone being raped to be removed until it's sourced, if you had a bio on wikipedia you would probably expect at least that much. Now do you have any proposed wording and where it could go that gives it balance (avoiding undue weight)? My guess is that we should couple it within the context it was presented as some speculating that Frisbee's sexuality can be explained partly because of the incident. Benjiboi 20:06, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
It was in the same interview you had been quoting. You did not have to dig through anything. I found it in 10 minutes. 71.238.68.127 17:51, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
- I was referring to digging through your voluminous and "ranty" comments. I'm glad something useful to the article was found. Benjiboi 21:19, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
- I was referring to digging through your ..."ranty" comments"
Benjiboi - Please assume good faith 66.51.147.97 17:18, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
- Comments such as You have repeatedly TWISTED the truth to contort to your LGBT worldview. It is just as much an influence as anyone's religion. You don't get to play the game that you are purely objective while anyone with a religious/spiritual background is addled with a bias.; to me, are considered a bit ranty. It's hard for me to assume good faith when confronted with accusations and veiled threats. Regardless, I have made good on including the information and even corrected it per references so that it adheres to wp policies as well. Someone being raped should never be treated lightly in a bio unless the subject of a bio has plainly treated it that way. And it should always be referenced. Benjiboi 17:43, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
"t's actually a xtian-based interview" So? Does that disqualify it somehow? What if it were a Jewish based interview? Would that make it worse? What's the relevance here other than animus? Thanks 71.238.68.127 17:51, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
- These talk pages are archived for future editor's use. It makes sense to note what items have been dealt with and, in this case. to note that the sourced was from a Christiam blog yet still considered a reliable source. Please assume good faith. Benjiboi 21:19, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
- Sabatino revealed in the same interview that he was told Frisbee had been raped as an eight-year-old child.
- Any suggestions as to wording? I think this should go chronologically as the first point in the Early life section but not sure how to word it. Benjiboi 21:35, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
"not sure how to word it" That does not give you the right to delete it as you apparently did. I put it back in. Please...please do not try to twist the facts. You are already on record as saying at different times Frisbee was the founder of two Christian denominations as well as he was NOT the founder. You should make up your mind. Better yet, let the facts make up everybody's mind.
I think your own personal bias has you confused. Could you consider allowing someone less subjective edit this article? Just a helpful thought. thank you! 71.238.68.127 17:55, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
- I removed it and put it on these pages for someone else to reword it and re-insert it as it was poorly written at the time. Hardly twisting facts, your concerns about my misstatement have been addressed elsewhere. I see it's been reinserted and reworded, you can save the rest of your accusations as they do not belong. Please assume good faith and stick to discussing the article only please. Benjiboi 21:19, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Lonnie's Testimony
It has been reported that Lonnie took out the part about him being a homosexual before he was saved from his testimony.
That makes sense to me given the time.
However, a GRATUITOUS cheap shot against the church is added to this fact in the article.
Why, other than the obvious (some of the editors in here controlling the article might not be fans of Christianity), is this insult included?
Society was so much different back then. People could lose their jobs for being homosexual. My God, even Paul Lynde couldn't come out of the closet back then. lol
Why does the church need to be indicted in specific? You are anachronistically taking a cheap shot.
It'd be like me saying New York City did not allow blacks in certain neighborhoods in 1870 and then find a source to RIDICULOUSLY say 'And I think that's AN INDICTMENT against NYC.'
I'll leave it in for a few days. But unless someone can offer a LEGIT reason for it's inclusion, it should come out.
Again..HATING Jesus does not qualify as a legitimate reason. Not that anyone in here does. Since I'm assuming good faith. I'm sure you all LOVE him...71.238.68.127 05:53, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
- Hi, let's save the presumptions about other editors and stick the discussing the article. If you're referring to the statement I think that's an indictment of the church that is a direct quote. I'm happy to button that with a follow up statement that now the church allows openly gay ministers or even now the church allows gay ministers as long as they keep their sexuality covert if we have a reference supporting it. Benjiboi 17:11, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Ok. I'll keep my presumptions in check if you promise to do the same. It may be a direct quote, but it's a gratiutious slam that has no relevance. It is relevant that Lonnie USED to tell people he WAS gay as part of his testimony. But not for the reasons you probably think. He felt it was a sign of God's power that he could deliver someone from such a WRETCHED lifestyle. That WAS his opinion, you know. The fact that he later backslid notwithstanding. Personally, I would include that in the article, but I know it would make you cry, so I'm cool keeping it out. I don't have an agenda other than to make the article NPOV which it most certainly was NOT until I began contributing. In the 70's and early 80's the church was a little creeped out about homosexuality (as was much of society), esp the male variety. Remember, this was before LGBT people got in high positions within the entertainment community and began their non-stop blitzkrieg to the point where now it seems that every show has to have at least one gay character.
So, Lonnie deleted that part from his testimony. That is all that is important here. Whether some guy interprets this deletion as a sign the church is/was full of homophobic meanies is UTTERLY IRRELEVANT in this regard. 71.238.68.127 (talk) 13:50, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
- Coker, Matt. ""The First Jesus Freak" by Matt Coker". Retrieved 2007-05-17.
- Chattaway, Peter. "Frisbee interview -- it's up!". Retrieved 2007-05-17.
- ^ Chattaway, Peter. "Documentary of a Hippie Preacher". Retrieved 2007-05-17.