Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 18:08, 10 December 2007

This non-existent page does not require a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Biography: Politics and Government This page is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography This page is supported by the politics and government work group. Russia This page is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a WikiProject dedicated to coverage of Russia on Misplaced Pages. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the project page, or contribute to the project discussion.RussiaWikipedia:WikiProject RussiaTemplate:WikiProject RussiaRussia Russia This page is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a WikiProject dedicated to coverage of Russia on Misplaced Pages. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the project page, or contribute to the project discussion.RussiaWikipedia:WikiProject RussiaTemplate:WikiProject RussiaRussia

/Archive 1 /Archive 2 Archives

Archive 1

best president

I would like to say that he is the best presidente ever of russia... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.165.253.187 (talk) 15:39, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, assassinating 22 journalists makes hime da best presidente ever of russia...--124.185.189.204 21:36, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, Russia is not a resort. It never were and it never wouldn't be. But this makes life more interesting. Adds spice. ellol 20:28, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

For those suffering persecutions in Russia and civilians of Czeczenia it could be very interesting.. --Gabriels m (talk) 10:19, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

It's also very interesting for those 20% of the population who survive on the beggarly wage and for who Putin is the only hope. ellol (talk) 10:38, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

This is not a forum or general discussion on the subject of the article. You can go to a blogsite so as to voice your opinions on this person. If you can't improve this article in any other way, then go out of this discussion. I can delete this section. -Pika ten10 04:43, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

If it is for the betterment of an article, its fine. But judging from this, it won't mean much.

MrBosnia 03:05, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

POV problem

"In April 1999, FSB Chief Vladimir Putin and Interior Minister Sergei Stepashin held a televised press conference in which they discussed a video that had aired nationwide March 17 on the state-controlled Russia TV channel which showed a naked man very similar to the Prosecutor General of Russia, Yury Skuratov, in bed with two young women."

Now, this whole "man very similar" needs to be cited and confirmed somehow. Right now the article is pretty much saying that Putin rigged the whole thing up as a smear campaign to help out Yeltsin. Which it may or may not have been, I dont know, I've never heard of this. But either way such a bold statement needs some serious citations to back it up.

24.137.76.86 02:24, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

It could even be viewed as original research, because in an encyclopedia you should not juxtapose two facts or one fact and one opionion (even if sourced) so as to make any reader conclude to something that is not sourced. --Pan Gerwazy 09:18, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I have put references to David Satter's interview there he gid this synthesis for us. Speaking of Skuratov-Putin connections, should we put into the article allegations by late Alexander Litvinenko that Putin himself was filmed with underaged boys in exactly the same bed as Skuratov?

Among other things, Putin found videotapes in the FSB Internal Security Directorate, which showed him making sex with some underage boys. Interestingly, the video was recorded in the same conspiratorial flat in Polyanka Street in Moscow where Russian Prosecutor-General Yuri Skuratov was secretly video-taped with two prostitutes. Later, in the famous scandal, Putin (on Roman Abramovich's instructions) blackmailed Skuratov with these tapes and tried to persuade the Prosecutor-General to resign. In that conversation, Putin mentioned to Skuratov that he himself was also secretly video-taped making sex at the same bed. (But of course, he did not tell it was pedophilia rather than normal sex.) Later, Skuratov wrote about this in his book Variant Drakona (p.p. 153-154). or —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alex Bakharev (talk • contribs) 11:15, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

What is his Job; as, "President of the Russian Federation"

Simple; to strive for a better future for his people; & in employing all the best talents; ensuring, as best as he can; social stability. Which is; exactly the same remit; as the "President" of the "USA". So in answering all the questions from the finger-pointers; "I" say this; "You Europeans; are making, a bad set of world social events, that have happened over the past 7 years; work against, "USA"-"RUSSIAN"; "RELATIONSHIP-STABILITY"; & you are doing this {People/Masses; & European Union}, by winding the situation up, at every chance you get. Poking fun at both leaders; in a rocking dynamic; one, then the other, to deliberately create the dynamic, where both feel that it is the other that is trying to; "Cut off their Manhood"; in political terms. When in actual fact; "EU"; is doing all the calling; & finger pointing; acting as the "Grim Reapers Proxy"; on planet Earth. Warning to both leaders should be; in political terms; you are both, people who have the rare ability to sit in the chair; as for Europe; if you both carry on listening; we are all going to die; & only the Presidents of "USA"; & "RUSSIA"; can stop it. & as for the "Fucked-up"; Euro-Clowns; they are all stoned; & are seeing little green men. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.158.85.72 (talk) 22:37, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Would such phrase be useful in the article?

While many foreigners associate Putin with fears for establishing tyranny in Russia, many Russians associate Putin with hopes for modernization of the country. ellol 18:45, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good, but citation needed. Moreover, in English WP "foreigners" don't really feel they are foreigners, "Westerners" might be more correct term, also because these fears are not shared by the rest of the world. In fact, "Western media" would be even more correct in place of foreigners, since this is a media opinion they attempt to substitute for public opinion, and this is actively pushed on people in Western mediacratic societies of today. Cfeet77 22:06, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

The "Kissing the Little Boy on the Stomach" Incident

While it's clearly not of geopolitical significance, there is some very odd (no, really, very odd) footage of Putin meeting a little boy, handling him in a slightly strange way, lifting his top up, and kissing his stomach. I don't think many people are aware of this and think it should be mentioned somewhere inasmuch as Putin seems to be a very unusual creature indeed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.12.121.252 (talk) 17:02, August 22, 2007 (UTC)

Is already covered in the Anecdotes section. 61.68.144.174 07:05, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

This anecdote was removed at some point since this last posting. Can someone readd it, please? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.152.75.155 (talk) 13:42, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't really see the point to be honest. 77.250.171.134 (talk) 00:28, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Russia to educate itself to the World

Unfortunately in the last hundred years or so the world has forgotten to educate the many countries about Russia, it's goals of change to better freedom and unity in world aspects. Living in Australia my entire life, and we a far from everyone being gurt by sea, only beneficial media gets to us and those who can afford travel, and fewer with the privilege of traditional humanised education such as meeting in any public place.

Perhaps here Russians can tell us what they like about Australia, or other countries, and people interested like myself can read, ask and learn more about Russia and Russia's changes from the former USSR to coping with surrounding indepndent countries as well as having to become more accountably democratic.

The modern Russia is young and the last several years has seen it become more respected.

Everyone I imagine is welcome in Australia.

Have a NIce Day, Michael —Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael from Australia (talk • contribs) 11:51, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Did he work in 5th Department?

This source claims that Putin initially worked in infamous 5th KGB Department that was responsible for prosecution of dissidents, etc. . Is that correct?Biophys 21:30, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I only want to note that this resource is one of websites of Chechen separatists. One should be careful when working with such documents. Biophys is very right that he seeks to cross-check such information. ellol 08:11, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, thete is a book (by Andrew Jack, ""Inside Putin's Russia..." that tells the same - page 58). Also, Yuri Shvets, who studied together with Putin in the Academy of Foreign Intelligence, said: "...Vova was a leader - a snitch. Everybody hated the leader" (page 58).Biophys 20:52, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Did Putin send "Bear" stealth bombers over Norwegian and UK airspace recently?

Just read something in the news about RAF stealth fighters driving the Russian bombers out of UK airspace...--h i s _{r e s e a r c h} 14:32, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Times Online link.--h i s _{r e s e a r c h} 15:46, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Wasn't out of UK airspace. They were escorted by RAF fighters on approach to UK airspace. They remained in international waters. In regards to your statement, yes Russia has resumed strategic nuclear bomber patrols on a permanent basis not that long ago. 59.101.144.154 15:42, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you guys are taking too much of "G, Galloways"; patented cough mixture; you know the one; "Mandrake, mixed in an alcoholic opium base"; "Euro-Fighter Typhoon", is not Stealthy; & nor are the "Bear Bombers". You Europeans wacked out on "Atropine"; are taking the world; closer to the end, than; "The Cuban Missile Crisis". Stop winding up the USA-Russia; divide; ordinarily, they have spitz & spatz; you lunatics seeing little green men; want so much more; like cowabunga dude & a mushroom cloud to go on your pizza; more. See a fucking doctor for your addictions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.158.85.72 (talk) 21:51, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Good Article

Couldn't that article get GA status? Zouavman Le Zouave 17:40, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Even though there are a lot of references the quality and reverence of content is dubious, hence this is not a GA. 59.101.144.154 15:54, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Germanophile

Are Putin a Germanophile? As a traditional Russian Westernizer, it should not be forgotten that Putin is a confirmed Germanophile. He spent years working for the KGB in East Germany, speaks fluent German, and famously prefers beer to vodka. 189.12.88.22 18:46, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

This info has been deleted from the article (correctly in my view) as not sourced. I did recently read somewhere that actually, German was Putin's weakest subject at school, and because of his "rectitude" he actually put a lot of effort into it so that he could speak it fluently. As for preferring beer over vodka - nothing particularly Germanophile there: avoiding vodka is part of his image (he may even score with that among young Russians who now prefer wine over vodka). I think I will look for the German at school source and put it in at the start of the article. I also remember reading that he lived so close to school that he went there without a coat even during winter. May be more difficult to trace back, however. --Paul Pieniezny 10:56, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Political Party?

I had the question "what is Putin's political party and political views" in my mind. I think the article could be a bit clearer about this, without having to read everything through or read between the lines.

After searching for "party" I found this:

"While not formally associated with any party, Putin pledged his support to the newly formed Unity Party"

Does this mean that he is NOT a member of a political party? This is quite strange because whenever I hear about someone being elected in another country (or my own), he or she is a member of some political party.

If he is indeed not a member of any party, how do the voters know what he stands for? Did the voters elect him as a single person? Please forgive my ignorance here: if he was voted for as a single person, what are then his political colleagues, are they elected or appointed, and are they from several different parties? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.97.201.67 (talk) 12:05, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Excellent question. No, he is not a member of any existing party. He used to be a member of the CPSU, but it was dissolved in 1991 (I believe this information was in the article the last time I read it). Both in 2000 and in 2004 he was elected as a single person, and the voters used to have very different guesses as to what he stands for (as if this mattered in Russia). Yes, he officially pledged support to the Unity Party of Russia in 1999 and (apparently not that officially, I am not sure) to United Russia, pretty much artificial bureaucratic parties without a coherent ideology. Parties are traditionally underdeveloped in Russia and are usually organized by the authorities. I tried to figure out whether Putin is classified as left or right some time ago, but failed to find enough sources. It is extremely difficult to tell what has been done by him personally rather than by somebody else in the Russian leadership. As to his inner circle, well, he has brought to power many of his former colleagues. Parties really don't matter that much in Russia. Colchicum 12:53, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Vladimir Putin IS the party of russia--124.185.189.204 21:38, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Total BS

The "anecdote" about Putin being a gay icon is total bullshit. For one its sources arent even credible, just some joke websites. Someone clearly made this to try to embarrase putin. Why would Putin be a icon for gays if he let the gays at the gay pride parade get arrested and beat up? Thats because its fake, some asshole who doesnt know anything about russia put it up —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.238.88.237 (talk) 18:39, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Opposition

Obviously there's a sort of misunderstanding among some Western contributors. Opposition group the Other Russia, which unites far left-wing and right-wing parties + a couple of important figures doesn't represent the whole Russian opposition. Other Russia is mostly known for Dissenters Marches and Harry Kasparov, but it's a mistake to equalize it with the opposition.

Speaking about opposition I would at first say about 1) Communists. The Communist Party of Russian Federation holds 10% of seats in Parliament. 2) Democrats. These forces are represented by parties Yabloko, Union of Right Forces, Civilian Power. None of these are represented in Parliament by now. 3) Russian nationalists. These forces luckily aren't in Parliament. That's the Movement Against Illegal Immigration and coalition the Great Russia.

Other Russia is the best PR'ed in the West, and paradoxially that kills it inside Russia. For good or for bad, but no party/ political figure publicly approved at the West has no political future in Russia. ellol 08:46, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Ellol, eventually, the Russian people will see the wisdom of having free elections and a democratic country. Apparently, from your posts here, you approve of leadership similar to that of Stalin, that is able to stamp out all opposition. Why is the Western democratic tradition so much disliked by you and some other Russians? Do you think that dictatorships is the way to go? As John Kennedy said "Freedom has many difficulties and Democracy is not perfect, but we have never had to build a wall to keep our people in, to keep them from leaving us." Now I don't mean to imply that Putin is a communist or that communism will regain control of Russia. But I think it is abundantly clear that Putin is leaning towards the techniques that kept those communists in power for so many years. Building a wall was one of many elements of state control that Putin seems inclined to repeat. Not that he will build a wall but he does seem inclined to suppress any opposition by means that would be illegal in the west. You seem more than willing to help his regime in that regard.

Marktwain403 16:07, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Marktwain, please, it's not a good idea to ruin the job of tens of editors by reverting once and once to your favourite version. It is edit war and leads to many errors. Garret Beaumain 12:18, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Marktwain, please, keep calm. There's no point to discuss my views or situation in general. 1) Situation in general is too much to grasp; any such estimate (Russia is democracy/ Russia is authoritorian state) is inevitably politized. 2) My views are absolutely irrelevant here. Moreover, speaking about my views I'm sure they are way similar to those of you or some other Western guys. The difference goes a) from different historical background b) I live in Russia, you live outside. That creates difference in views. Indeed, e.g. for many Americans the United States is democracy/style of life the first place, but for many people outside the U.S. it's its agressive foreign policy the first place. Just observation.

I suggest to discuss narrow topic, which we can grasp. Call it political parties in Russia, their influence and opportunities to take part in elections. OK?

I've told you. There's pro-Putin centrist-right political party "United Russia" with majority of seats. There's socialistic pro-Putin political party "Fair Russia", leaded by Sergey Mironov, the future of the party being dubious. There's anti-Kremlin the Communist Party of Russian Federation with 10% of seats in the Parliament, which, it seems, will retain its influence, i.e. will be elected in the Parliament. Yes, Communists are anti-Kremlin, they believe the country is ruled by anti-people forces which sell the country to thugs.

There are three democratical parties. They are real parties, if you know Russian you can read their political programmes: SPS, Civilian Power.

There are Russian nationalists who were banned from the elections. I underscore that, Russian nationalists, nationalists of the Russian ethnic group. E.g., they don't consider Russians 16 million Ukraineans, 4 million of Tatars, 2 million of Bashkirs, 1 million of Chechens and other 150 nations who are also citizens of Russia with equal rights with the major ethnic group.

There is the Other Russia. Well, this organization is a salad of Communists, more rampant than the Communist Party and far liberals, as well as some other minor parties. Please, let me know where I can read political program of the Other Russia. I dunno. The Other Russia was recently refused from taking part in 2008 elections , because it's not a single party, while under new 2005 legislature only single parties, not blocks of parties, may take part in elections. Read about new legislature in the following passage. Anyway -- what prevented all those about 10 parties which constitute the Other Russia to merge into a single party and take part in elections, or if they would be banned under some pretext, to open a trial and struggle for their rights: Bloody Putin's regime? Or they themselves?

Okey, now, what do you mean -- return free elections? Usually when opposition leaders speak about "not free" elections they mean 2005 legislature ammendments. I.e. 1) Previously half of the Duma was composed from individual candidates, which were elected within each of 81 regions of Russia. The other half was composed from parties, which struggled on the federal level. Under new 2005 legislation, all 450 Duma deputies are elected by parties lists. 2) the barrier which the party has to overcome in order to pass into the Parliament has arisen from 5% to 7% of votes. 3)Blocks of parties were prohibited. 4) There are also less known changes like the minimal amount of parties to be represented in Duma has dropped from 4 to 2, but if 2 major parties gather less than 60% of votes, other parties are also allowed.

Usually representatives of SPS claim that rise of the Duma barrier from 5% to 7% votes sufficiently implicates their chances to pass into Duma. It is. But hey, don't you think that it's bloody Putin's regime which doesn't allow Russian democratic parties to realize their responsibility before the nation and unite into a single Democratic Party, which would certainly pass into Duma, because we have far more than 7% of people with democratical views. Or that's parties being unable to get to common views, compose a common political programm, find a common political leader? The state doesn't have to create comfortable conditions for every individual party, but to set rules of the game. New legislature amendments have a clear sense of increasing the role of parties, responsibility of parties in the political life; it's a step towards the American model, where there are only 2 parties, but they are powerful ones.

Of course, the state also doesn't have to create more comfortable conditions for the political party "United Russia". But it does. Anyway, programms of democratic/communist parties were announced on the Russian federal TV. Is there a preference towards the United Russia? Surely it is. But other parties aren't banned from the process of elections, as you might think.

An old Chinese proverb says that if a hungry person asks you for food, don't give them fish give them a fishing rod. When Western organizations provide aid for democratical parties in Russia, they give them fish, not any kind of fishing rod.

Now, please, tell me where I'm wrong! ellol 15:32, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

centrist-right political party "United Russia"? LOL. See Left-Right politics. Colchicum 16:01, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for info. ellol 20:26, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

+ some more info on political parties in Russia (link in English): ellol 20:26, 17 October 2007

Putin and Georgia

Why is the article so silent about Putin's aggressive policy towards Georgia? Russia's embargo and economic sanctions have been in force since late 2006. Georgians in Russia suffer from the government-inspired discrimination. Please refer to the latest Human Rights Watch report for more details. Thanks. Shota-G., Oct. 06, 2007.

There are more reasons to blame georgian president in ruined relations, than the russian one. Don't expect Misplaced Pages to represent the events from your point of view. Everything is perfectly covered, by the way, in Georgia-Russia relations.Garret Beaumain 15:19, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh really? The relations had been ruined long before Saakashvili came to power. It is not his fault that his Russian counterpart dreams reasserting Moscow's hegemony over the post-Soviet countries and that ethnic prejudices and xenophobia are rampant in Russia. Shota-G., Oct. 07, 2007. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.238.43.69 (talk) 16:07, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I would just drop a word here. Yes, relationships between two countries has deteriorated in the last few years due to some idiots in power. Moreover, in the last say 10 years there was some rise of xenophobia in Russia, which although was at least partially induces by certain circumstances. But don't forget that Georgians are traditionally treated well in Russia. People of Russia don't have an eye against people of Georgia, politicians do. ellol 13:36, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, Ellol. Cheers, Shota-G., Oct. 08, 2007. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.238.43.69 (talk) 15:16, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

russia 's policies in its interactions with dictator governments

Unfortunately countries like russia and china are big obstacles in front of people who do not have a democratic countries and wish to have a democratic country. for instance in iran people are trying to change their totalitarian state and countries like united states are helping them but russia and china are big barriers since they keep to have political and economical interactions with iran. on the other hand iran is producing nuclear weapons that threatens all of the world but russia and china do not care.they are really disappointing us as iranians.----awyer —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.229.34.25 (talk) 14:42, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Visit to New Zealand as part of Mikhail Lermontov (ship) enquiry

A recent claim was made that he was in New Zealand in 1988: A man bearing a striking resemblance to was in New Zealand in 1986 for the inquiry into the sinking of the Russian cruise ship Mikhail Lermontov in the Marlborough Sounds. . Any chance this could be true or is documented anywhere? - SimonLyall 10:59, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

To Arkansaschemist and other Putin-bashers

Please, don't forget where you are: it is Misplaced Pages, not the tribune for expression your hate on Putin and your worry about democracy in Russia. This is biographical article that should be kept neutral, independent from editors' points of view, based only on external accounts from the respected sources.

About the latest edits:

Newspapers, radio stations and internet editions... are often careful not to be critical of Putin.

Did you ask them? This edit is unsourced OR. And you seem never listened to Echo Moskvi, watched Ren-TV or browsed runet.

But this must be seen in the context of the immense power of the state over newspapers and television.

Another personal opinion expression: "it must be seen" is classical for Weasel words.[REDACTED] does not point people how they should "see".

This sort of pressure would be illegal in most democratic nations in the world. Many in the West worry that Putin is gradually gathering dictatorial powers solely in his hands.

OR (can you provide a source what is legal for "democratic nations"?) and POV with weasel words (Many in the South worry that Putin eats little children on his breakfast). According to WP:CITE, if there's a controversy, we should write: "John Doe and Jack Smith, famous politicians, wrote in their books that they worry about Putin may become a dictator(link, link). Alex Ivanov, another famous politician, in reply, wrote in his book that he has different point of view (link)".

All this edits should be removed according to Misplaced Pages policies. Stating that article "glorifies" VVP is a reason for good laugh - there are more criticism than in articles on any G8 leader. Just try to write something like this in Angela Merkel or Gordon Brown.

PS. surely, all such articles as on current rulers should be forever protected from anonymous and newly registered users' edits. Garret Beaumain 00:42, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

About the name mentioned in the title of this chapter: . All three banned now. --Paul Pieniezny 01:48, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Putin is building up a police state/dictatorship. No source... I have my own in Russia. But you can derive this much by simply paying attention to the news. -- 212.202.176.23 (talk) 20:29, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Let me be your source from Russia: there's allright enough. ))Garret Beaumain (talk) 13:50, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Putin's Biography

I have tried editing this before -I do not think it is fair to label this book a biography- but it always get's reversed. It is a compilation of hours and hours of interviews, and thus is just a selected source of questions, and answers (mostly from Putin, but not entirely). Though it does seem to follow a rough chronological order, and organization of a biography, it is unlike any biography I have ever read- it is much more about getting a feel for the man (as much as you can from a book) and less about the facts of his life.

Second issue, which may be a non-issue, don't know... The page currently states that the translation is "From the First Person." I don't speak/write Russian so I don't know. But what I can tell you is that the book is sitting right in front of me and the title is very clearly "First Person: An Astonishingly Frank Self-Portrait by Russia's President Vladimir Putin". I don't know if the complete title is necessary for this page, but it seems at least some reference should be made to the fact you are not going to find this book in english as "From the First Person".

--67.185.216.23 08:33, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

You made an excellent point. I think edits are necessary and properly referenced they would not be reversed. Kulikovsky 20:17, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Mark Twain is using IPs to circumvent his ban, and this guy needs to take an account and wait a few days. Then he will be able to do what he want (and as you say).--Paul Pieniezny 17:53, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

"From the first person" was just a way to render the idiomatic expression used in the Russian title. Now that we know the translated version, that should be the correct one.--Paul Pieniezny 17:53, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

"От Первого Лица" should be better translated as "At First Sight". In current translation it doesn't make clear for me what does the title mean at all. What is "the first person"? Putin? does it then mean "from the Putin"? --Gabriels m 17:41, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Billionaire?

How come this article does not mention that he is a billionaire? He was involved in business with Timchenko who effectively controls Russian oil giant Surgutneftegaz. . It was reported that Putin owns thirty seven percent share of Surgutneftegaz. Putin had also received around $4 billion in 2006 through Gunvor and Timchenko, according to Stanislav Belkovsky . Biophys (talk) 22:05, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

• I do not think any of those sources are reliable. I am pretty sure he is not in Forbes list. Kulikovsky (talk) 22:27, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

They do. Please see WP:Source. There are numerous reliable sources besides the Forbes list. He then asserted: “Putin is also a big businessman. He controls 37% of the shares of ‘Surgutneftegaz’ , with the market value coming to $20 billion. Moreover, he controls 4.5% of the shares of ‘Gazprom’ . In the company Gunvor, which sells oil, Putin has 50% through his representative Gennady Timchenko. Last year, its turnover came to $40 billion dollars, and its profits -- $8 billion” -

A couple more references: , , . There are also possible links here with deaths of Roman Tsepov and Andrey Kozlov. Biophys (talk) 22:36, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

• All sources you refer to seem to be questionable. That is probably not what you want to hear, but this is my opinion. Kulikovsky (talk) 02:47, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Could you please clarify why they are not reliable per WP:Source?Biophys (talk) 07:06, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
    • I am not 100% sure, but I see some problems with some of the sources. Kremlin, Inc appears to be a blog. Blogs and other self-published sources are typically considered unreliable as they lack editorial oversight or wide-spread peer-review. , were both written and originally published by The Jamestown Foundation. I am not so sure if a think-tank with a very clear agenda is that reliable. This is not so straight forward, however, as the articles are signed (by whom exactly?) and one could argue that there is peer review available. The RFERL link does seem like a reliable source, except it only asserts that Putin has done business with Timchenko, et al., which is hardly saying that he is a billionaire. The WPS site also appears fairly reliable, however, it too does not state that Putin is a billionaire; it just talks about Timchenko's business interests, and a close relationship between him and Putin. Unfortunately, I cannot really comment on the Russian pages, as I don't read Russian at all. But these pages have their own slight issues per WP:RSUE -Seidenstud (talk) 07:51, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

The Jamestown article tells: Belkovsky made his case once again on November 16, when he appeared as the main guest on Yevgeny Kiselyov’s “Vlast” program, which is simulcast on RTVi television and Ekho Moskvy radio. So, that is basically retelling story published in other reliable source. Moreover, this story was also published in Die Welt (first source I cited was Russian translation from German). So, this perfectly satisfy WP:RSUE.Biophys (talk) 15:46, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

• Well, that is not three sources. That is three media outlets rebroadcasting one - Belkovsky. I did not see any media endorsing his views. I doubt Belkovsky has direct knowledge of the matter, yet he does not tell his sources. Also, he is bashing Putin left and right and seems to be politically opposing Putin. Belkovsky cooperates with Putin's known political opponents. He is likely to be biased. That's my assessment of credibility of his statement. Now, his statement contradicts directly Putin's own declaration. Reuters reports: <...>Putin's declaration <...> lists his father's two Russian cars dating from the early 1960s amongst his assets, along with 3.7 million roubles ($149,400), a small apartment, a plot of land and 230 shares in a local bank. "What is published by the electoral commission is true," said Putin's spokesman on Monday. -- Kulikovsky (talk) 18:20, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Naturally, this contradicts Putin's statement. Naturally, Putin would deny this allegation. I am not a big fan of including any unreliable statements in BLPs. Hence this discussion. I think this needs to be studied more carefully.Biophys (talk) 04:26, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

So let's just leave it out either way. A debate over his assets (where there doesn't seem to be enough reliable sources on either side seems quite contrary to WP:BLP. Mimimal peer-review + NPOV (!= reliable source) = keep it out of BLP. -Seidenstud (talk) 05:24, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

There is a good summary of this story:

In February 2004, presidential candidate Ivan Rybkin named three men as Putin's bagmen, including Gennady Timchenko, the co-founder of the Gunvor oil-trading company. After Rybkin made this statement, he vanished from the political stage. In September, the Polish magazine Wprost wrote that Timchenko, a former KGB officer and member of Putin's dacha cooperative in St. Petersburg, has a net worth of $20 billion. Officially, Timchenko sells the oil of four Russian oil companies, but how are the prices determined to generate such profits?

In a sensational interview in Germany's Die Welt on Nov. 12, Stanislav Belkovsky, the well-connected insider who initiated the Kremlin campaign against Yukos in 2003, made specific claims about Putin's wealth. He alleged that Putin owned 37 percent of Surgutneftegaz (worth $18 billion), 4.5 percent of Gazprom ($13 billion) and half of Timchenko's company, Gunvor (possibly $10 billion). If this information is true, Putin's total personal fortune would amount to no less than $41 billion, placing him among the 10 richest in the world. .Biophys 04:17, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

• Kulikovsky's logic is laughable. The ilk of his consider state-run propaganda outlets such as ITAR-TASS apparently credible, but do not allow a well-known political scientist's view (never contested, much less disproved by the Kremlin) to be mentioned here as a mere "allegation". That Putin had been deeply involved in all sorts of shady business transactions from the early 1990-s has been discussed in the German and Russian press since the end of the 1990-s. The fact that this article totally overlooks this debate is its major drawback and makes it look like a Kremlin-sponsored campaign ad.Muscovite99 (talk) 16:03, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

It is ironic in a way that the Russian Wiki has a humungous article totally dedicated to "Criticism of Putin" with the first subsection headlined "Accusations of corruption before his presidency". It appears that the Kremlin is more concerned with manipulating the Western opinion thru its stooges than the Russians' who can always be topped if need be.Muscovite99 (talk) 16:12, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

• • Look, this has been discussed before and mostly editors suggested to include this information not, because there is no credible source. Kulikovsky (talk) 16:40, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

• You are mixing up the terms: we are referring to an allegation without saying whether it is true or not -- published in a credible source such as Die Welt.Muscovite99 (talk) 20:20, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Of course there are allegations. I do not see reasons to include those allegations or rumors to an encyclopedia. I am sorry for repeating myself, this topic has been discussed. I do not think I am saying anything new. Kulikovsky (talk) 22:49, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

• This allegation is the only bit of information that is of any consequence in this article. I CAN see it has been discussed and thy opinion is against the majority's.Muscovite99 (talk) 15:05, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion

I think we need to present both points of view: Putin has trivial possessions derived mostly from the book royalties and from his presidential salary. Putin is a billionaire making into world top-ten. I guess the first one is mainstream while the second is worth mention. I propose the following:

According to his financial statement for the 2007 Duma election Putin earned this and possessed that. In 2007 Kremlin politologist Stanislav Belkovsky alleged that Putin owns this and that that makes Putin the richest Russian and one of the top ten in the world refs. Neither Forbes nor Finance included Putin into their lists of billionaires (refs to the latest Forbes, Finance and whatever else).

This way we present the notable allegations but show that they contradict both the official data (duh!) and the opinion of main financial media. Developing a reasonable article about Belkovsky might help as well. If no objection I would try to make it this evening (Melbourne time) Alex Bakharev (talk) 02:20, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

It is not just Belkovsky: these allegations started several years ago aired by such prominent establishment figures as Ivan Rybkin. No-one tries to present the information therein as facts. They are very modestly billed as "allegations", which in itself does not require any counterbalancing. If you wish to present the data from his official financial statement for the 2007 Duma election -- go ahead. I think that would fit in perfectly as a second paragraph in the same section as an illustration of the guy's alleged mendacity.Muscovite99 (talk) 16:42, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Another Vladimir Putin

There will be another Vladimir Putin running for the parliament elections in December 2. See http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/22/AR2007112200402.html?sub=AR Locoluis (talk) 16:57, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

• Funny )) Though Yabloko is not such a "small" party.Garret Beaumain (talk) 16:42, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

This is not relevant, but as we touch Russian media in the article, there's an interesting new (independent, socially-political) TV channel O₂-TV with over 30 million audience (target audience are young people). If you know Russian, enjoy live broadcast. ellol (talk) 21:18, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Comrade Wolf forward

Even after having had a view on the history of the history page of the deleted 'Comrade Wolf' article, I do not understand why it has to be redirected here. 'Comrade Wolf' is a Russian joke character employed by Putin to denote the US, (to my knowledge it has never been employed to mean Putin). So even if 'Comrade Wolf' may not has the right to an own article (in the opinion of the Misplaced Pages community), I wonder why it redirects to a page that does not mention it.

Source: e.g. many more sources found when searching google

PS: I fear I do not breach Misplaced Pages ettiquete by posting this here, but this redirect is really annoying me (but I do not dare to change it)

You surely do not breach Misplaced Pages ettiquete. You are welcome to the Misplaced Pages. Thank you for your note, I inserted a template for speedy deletion at the page. But you could do it yourself, you didn't have in fact to ask anybody. Misplaced Pages is free for all, and you are welcome to be bold. ellol (talk) 08:13, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

The redirect is there per this AfD result. It is customary to keep the original title as a redirect when one article is merged into another one. If you feel this redirect is inappropriate, please list it on WP:RfD. In its present form, it most certainly does not meet any of the CSD criteria for redirects.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 14:13, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Party

Putin is the leader of the party United Russia. Though, don't know how is that legally explained, but the key must be here: http://edinros.ru ellol 21:48, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Stankonia is not a real place. Fix that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.120.14.222 (talk) 20:23, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

That was old vandalism by someone pretending to be funny. Since the rest of the edit looked serious, it was overlooked. I reverted that part. But nothing prevented you from doing so. Though taking an account and signing is always a good idea...--Paul Pieniezny (talk) 14:45, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

NPOV

The overall thrust and treatment of the subject in the article violate the basic principles of NPOV as espoused by Wiki. By uncritically presenting the Kremlin's official line as facts and all abuses (hardly ever mentioned herein) of Putin's regime as mere "criticisms" the article runs afoul of the very essence of the NPOV: "The policy requires that where multiple or conflicting perspectives exist within a topic each should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being judged as "the truth", in order that the various significant published viewpoints are made accessible to the reader, not just the most popular one.". The article is riddled with assertions that actually present a point of view (contested by many) as a statement of fact, such as: Putin has been trying, with some success, to re-establish for Russia the strong and independent role (a lot of people concur that this is a mere picture created by state media); Putin's Russia has been seeking stronger and more constructive ties with Europe and the United States (an utterly hilarious statement, many will say!); Russia became a fully fledged member of the G8 (a highly dubious statement in many ways; in essence -- utterly incorrect: finance ministers' meetings take place in the G7 format); Putin's attention was equally focused on Asia, in particular China and India. (this is a mere point of view); Putin surprised many Russian nationalists and even his own defense minister when, in the wake of the September 11 attacks in the United States, he agreed to the establishment of coalition military bases in Central Asia before and during the US-led invasion of Afghanistan. (I should like to see a hand-written statement of the defence minister to this effect, whereupon we could write: "he states that he was surprised"); Russian nationalists objected to the establishment of any US military presence (I wonder who are the "Russian nationalists" -- I suspect it may be the Chelsea gang owned by Putin's friend Roman Abramovich but have some doubts) -- the entire paragraph is unsourced; etc.Muscovite99 (talk) 16:20, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I do agree that article should be corrected to satisfy WP:NPOV. Perhaps one should include a "Criticism" section. This article also misses a number of important points. What are personal political views of Putin? What kind of ideology he shares? What kind of political system did he establish in Russia? (because that is his political legacy). This article has been cenzored even to exclude some views openly expressed by Putin himself.Biophys (talk) 18:47, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with user Muscovite that some points of the article aren't entirely correct or enough well sources aren't provided. And that may be discussed. But what do we have. I do not comment on all Muscovite's points. But e.g. "Putin has been trying, with some success, to re-establish for Russia the strong and independent role (a lot of people concur that this is a mere picture created by state media)" It's an interesting statement. I can understand it 2 ways. 1) In fact people of Russia are encharmed with the West, and only the improper influence of State media controlled by wrong people keeps Russia out the right ways. 2) Russia is low efficient in "establishing its strong and independent role". Okay. But we live not in XX century to bang with nuclear weapons instead of diplomacy. Countries tensely depend on each others, so e.g. economic sanctions may be effective tools of the foreign policy. And nobody can now say that Russia is blindly following in the backwaters of the U.S. foreign policy. Russia has its own views, that's the core. I also think you overestimate the degree of influence of the Russian TV. Really today you can speak about a sort of consensus among the "political class", and among the population about the need of the independent policy. E.g., view of Yevgeny Primakov , view of Dmitry Medvedev "We are not trying to push anyone to love Russia but we shall not allow anyone to hurt Russia." (), see foreign minister Sergey Lavrov explaining the point. As you see, if there is a sort of the ideology expressed officially it's 1) Russia should decide for itself. 2) The world should be multipolar. 3) And yes, stop that damned pressure on Russia.(+) Opinion polls don't show like Russian people are very opposing towards the West (the majority are mostly positive towards the U.S., when asked to consider a hypothetical World War III among the West and 'Muslim World' a quarter of respondents told Russia will join the West while a quarter said Russia will stay neutral); but certain policies of the 'West' are disliked (Iraq, NATO expansion, less people feel European since 2000s, the major threat is thought to come from the U.S., roughly a half people think there's a world conspiracy against Russia while a half thinks there's not) .

Biophys, about your idea on viewing Putin's personal views and the like. I wonder what would be your suggestions? "This article has been cenzored even to exclude some views openly expressed by Putin himself." Do you mean his quote about no former KGB man and a group of security officers working under cover? Driven out of the context? If you start to investigate Vladimir Putin's national importance speeches, you'll find out that's a man sincerelly concerned about the state and quality of democracy, freedom of press and civil society in Russia (Look here, I've selected some stuff.) And knowing you you won't trust any of that. So what then, you'll take some speeches you trust and some you don't, and 'll use only those from the first group? I would definitely object such an approach. Political system? We have here lots of the stuff, like abolishment of direct governor elections. If you want to introduce here something on the lines of Putinism -- well. The majority of Putinism article are speculations, the stuff that can't be independently checked. There are some values -- like investigation by Kryshtanovskaya, but note, the only thing that's clearly stated is the share of siloviks in the political elite is 25% and even higher in Putin's "inner circle", that's proved; but claim about 75% share of affiliated siloviks is founded on speculations (like, this man worked in the state structure which had ties with KGB so we consider him affiliated silovik -- but hey, even you if you were a dissident could have contacts with KGB, among those poor 90,000 "prophylacted" people) so it's not the data we can entirely trust. Another little piece of real data are those provided by Jason Bush -- that the state presence in the economy has increased, although not drastically. I don't say we can't discuss presense of siloviks in the political elite or rise of the state presense in the national economy. But in this article we have to stick to BLP and don't allow speculations. Anyway, we have here views of Alan Greenspan and Egor Gaidar. Strictly speaking those should be removed per WP:BLP. Yet I hope it's a sort of a compromise point, as Gaidar brought into life liberal reforms in Russia once, and in the last years he isn't directly messed into Russian politics (although he is still a member of the Union of Right Forces if I'm not mistaken), so that more or less successfully should aid him to keep his mind calm. ellol (talk) 01:56, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I second some new points aired above: the article, being quite lengthy as it is, fails to elucidate many consequential aspects pertinent to the subject (mind, the subject is a person, not Russia's current history). But my point here is quite to the point (pardon the pun). I believe, at the very least the Vladimir Putin#Foreign policy subsection in its totality is quite out of place here. It is too big and vacuous. The style is all journalistic bombast and propaganda cliches -- entirely unencyclopedic. I think most of the details in it should be transferred into Foreign relations of Russia, which is unduly short. Being full of selective and often irrelevant deatails and fails to give an idea of the major trends in plain view since 2002 under Putin (on which there is experts' consensus both within Russia and without): steady deterioration of relations with NATO, the US, the EU and most Western countries, constant fracas with political regimes in the "near abroad" (sometimes teetering on the verge of military conflict such as with Georgia) -- all that is billed in the article as During his time in office, Putin has attempted to strengthen relations with other members of the CIS, support of pariah regimes such as Syria, Iran et al. Any attempts to introduce some common sense in this section are sabotaged by User:Cfeet77 who is the de-facto auther of this section. It ought to be radically trimmed and major negative trends as reported by world media be made clear without unnecessary verbiage. Incidently, I wonder who sanctioned User:Cfeet77's wholemeal deletion of the entire subsection about media freedom under Putin -- . I understan there has been no discussion on this account. If I am right the section should be restored as it is quite relevant. (At the very least there should be a summary and a link to Media freedom in Russia). My impression thus far is that User:Cfeet77's activity, being quite professional in many ways, amounts to systemic vandalism vis-a-vis this article. Muscovite99 (talk) 18:08, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• Biography articles of living people
• Pages using WikiProject banner shell with duplicate banner templates
• NA-Class biography pages
• NA-Class biography (politics and government) pages
• NA-importance biography (politics and government) pages
• Politics and government work group articles
• NA-Class Russia pages
• NA-importance Russia pages
• NA-importance NA-Class Russia articles
• WikiProject Russia articles with no associated task force
• WikiProject Russia articles