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Second case study: Jacques Derrida

A second case study, to talk about some related issues: Jacques Derrida is, without a doubt, one of the most important philosophers of the 20th century. His work, however, is deeply impenetrable - exactly the sort of primary source we don't want non-experts playing with. Unfortunately, secondary sources are pretty darn dense too, because they're all academic publications aimed at academic audiences, and few if any make a real move to be clear to non-specialist readers. Some tertiary sources exist, but, frankly, they're not very good, and do not capture what Derrida is doing well.

The way people learn about Derrida is through coursework - coursework where Derrida's works are assigned, and, through class discussion and the leadership of the professor, some understanding is come to. In other words, understanding of Derrida is not something that is, in the academy, communicated particularly through written works, but through an oral tradition. This is not surprising - Derrida is a graduate-level topic, for the most part, and graduate courses in the humanities are very primary-source focused, as they should be.

My question is not how to go about writing a Derrida article - we've done a decent job of that. We did it because people who know about Derrida have written from their knowledge, and provided enough sources for readers to familiarize themselves with the literature should they choose. But there are sections of the article - good sections - that could be ripped apart if somebody decided to apply WP:NOR and WP:CS rigidly to the article.

That's the problem I have. Especially since Derrida is far from alone on this - most topics studied by graduate students in the humanities face the exact same problem - high notability, few to no accessible secondary or quality tertiary sources.

This policy needs to be formulated in such a way that productive work on these topics can continue as it has. That is to say, this policy needs to reflect actual good practice in the article space. What can we do on this front?Phil Sandifer (talk) 19:11, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I worked on that article a couple years ago, and actually, I'd say that in this field, everything is a secondary source, as well as a dense, highly-technical primary source. Almost everything Derrida wrote, for example, is a secondary criticism of some prior philosopher or struc[turalist, as well as a seminal primary source on deconstruction. You can't separate the primary and secondary aspects of his work, because they are one and the same. Plus, you can't really write about Derrida in either a strictly primary or secondary way. In fact, when writing about Derrida, using a primary-secondary distinction is almost laughable, kind of like classifying sources on nihilism as good or evil. The whole primary-secondary framework goes out the window, leaving us with the idea of original research, which is where the focus should be anyway.

To write about Derrida without doing original research just means that you don't make any statements about Derrida's works, or works about Derrida, that would not be considered obvious to a highly-informed reader of Derrida. This is one example, too where the "reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge" requirement has to go out the window. No such person would be able to verify the accuracy of a citation to Derrida, any more than they could verify a citation to a nuclear physics article, unless it is a direct quote. COGDEN 20:13, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

These are all good points. SlimVirgin 20:54, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

An article on Derrida (or on any author for that matter) cannot use that author's own statements as a source to establish anything about the author unless those statements are explicitly (auto)biographical. As always, source type doesn't matter (not that a distinction, as Cogden points out, applies to Derrida). What matters (with respect to NOR) is that the statements be accurately reflected.

Incidentally, there is one sentence that I (non-Derrida person) immediately picked out in the Derrida article as blatant OR:

"It can plausibly be argued that with this commentary Derrida had already posed the basis of his whole path of thinking."

The "plausibly" is evaluating the two cited sources. The phrase "can plausibly be" should be replaced with "has been."

-- Fullstop (talk) 21:15, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

That's probably just poor phrasing, though, and doesn't get at the issue I'm talking about. I say probably just poor phrasing because one of the sources seems to be an interview with Derrida, and the subject is such that the phrasin ghtere could actually be accurate - that is, that the argument advanced may be that the interpretation is plausible, not that the interpretation is true. I don't have easy access to the sources, though, and odds are better that you're right - I bring this up only to reiterate my point - one made very succinctly by Cogden as well - for writing about Derrida, the "without specialized knowledge" criterion is not a usable one. Phil Sandifer (talk) 21:20, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Derrida is the same as other dense and difficult but highly notable philosophers. I've yet to encounter a notable difficult-to-understand philosopher whose work has not been explained in a relatively simplistic manner by textbooks and other course materials. Hegel and Husserl are two prominent examples. The phenomenology of Husserl is an incredibly complex topic, usually studied by graduate students, but undergraduate level "summaries" of the difficult topic are far from scarce. Derrida is no different. Vassyana (talk) 21:54, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Sure. It's just that those summaries are, at least from academic vantages, not very good. I mean, I certainly don't want a Derrida article written primarily from Derrida For Beginners. Which is not to say that the book doesn't have its uses - but no responsible academic would say it provides sufficient basis to use as a major source in writing a summary of Derrida. Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:09, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

The reason they're "not very good" is because they are (relatively) exceedingly short summaries of highly complex topics. However, they're very good for providing a rough overview and introduction to the topic. Misplaced Pages is written for a general audience and requires a pragmatic article length. A very well written Misplaced Pages article should be roughly equivalent to those "not very good" sources. Misplaced Pages simply isn't the place to get into complex lengthy graduate level explanations of topics. Those "poor" sources are written by academics for post-secondary academic instruction and subject to a very competitive market. I'm sure they (as a whole) know better than you or I what is the appropriate way to summarize the topic. Of course academics who know the topic inside and out are going to criticize the "oversimplification" of the topic. That's a fairly universal reaction across fields regarding summary and introductory sources. Vassyana (talk) 22:21, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes - Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source. But if we write from already poor sources we're going to get even worse sources. And, I mean, I'd like to be, as Jimbo's slogan goes, better than Britannica. After all, part of why Derrida for Beginners and other sources are so mediocre is that they try to cram a lot of information into a short space. Misplaced Pages is not paper - we can afford to actually give a good, thorough, not simplifying and inaccurate overviews of topics. That's one of the reasons we're better. Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:33, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages isn't paper, to be sure, but it's also not intended for articles to be ridiculously long. Even a very long article (by Misplaced Pages standards) would generally be shorter than those summary sources. Again, I don't think those sources are "poor", but rather necessary simplifications of the topics. We're not going to be able to do much better without making an article incomprehensible to the reader or drawing on sources that can't be verified by anyone without extensive expert knowledge. Both such circumstances are highly undesirable. Providing the (over)simplified summary should be the practical goal, along with providing external links and further reading recommendations for those seeking a more in-depth understanding of the topic. Vassyana (talk) 23:19, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Since the number of our articles is, for practical purposes, unlimited, there is no reason we cannot have both over-simplified introductory articles and more advanced articles appropriate for readers with more background. — Carl (CBM · talk) 23:27, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Point taken. I'd imagine in your conception that this would basically work like the normal subarticle/spin-off process? That is, the more advanced articles addressing specific subpoints in depth? Would you agree our primary goal should be first to create decent overview articles on the main topics? How would you address the problems of verification and identifying original research inherent in such complex topics? Vassyana (talk) 23:44, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

One thing that would be helpful is to ditch the "non-specialized audience" requirement - it's not helpful on the easier articles either, honestly. What would help there is a push towards phrasing things such that a non-specialist audience can understand them - but that's a problem across a lot of topics that does not seem to me to be inherently related to OR. I think we can write a better basic article on Derrida from sources other than the tertiary sources too. Phil Sandifer (talk) 00:05, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Vassyana, I would be glad to discuss that question, but I don't think this is the right place, since that issue runs much deeper than NOR. I think about it quite often as an editor of technical articles. If you would like to talk about it, I'll volunteer my talk page for everyone to use. To give a very quick answer, I do think a spinoff process is reasonable, although sometimes it is faster to dig a tunnel from both ends towards the middle.

Phil, I think the non-specialized reader requirement is important as an anti-crank tool, which I can explain upon request. — Carl (CBM · talk) 00:23, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Cranks tend to have a number of other problems, including m:MPOV and complete fucking insanity. I suspect we can soften this policy to better govern normal cases without losing our ability to stop the utterly insane. Phil Sandifer (talk) 02:45, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

A serious problem with using more basic summary works is that they represent one highly-disputed POV. Derrida himself, and many other commentators, opposed attempts to simplify his writings, and the POV is that these simplifications are simply wrong. And reading some of these "Deconstruction for Dummies"-type books, I tend to agree. Derrida's work, I think, is just not simplifiable consistent with WP:NPOV, which is the most fundamental and inviolable Misplaced Pages policy.

I don't think there is anything wrong with articles written for more advanced readers. There are hundreds of them. The vast majority of mathematics and physics articles are way behond the non-specialist reader, and sources in it could never be verified by someone without very specialized knowledge. For example, consider the article Quantum chromodynamics. It's a significant and notable topic, but nothing in this article is comprehensible by anyone other than a trained physicist. Moreover, you could not expect anyone other than a physicist to be able to verify any of the references (primary, secondary, or otherwise). Furthermore, there are no "Quantum Chromodynamics for Dummies" books in existence, and even if such a book existed, it would be directed to physicists who already have specialized training in quantum field theory. The "non-specialized reader" requirement just isn't feasible in all cases. So either we drop that requirement, or we effectively ban articles on a large number of notable topics. COGDEN 18:34, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

The section on Derrida's life is essentially uncited. But if verfiability is not an issue and people are not questioning the content, I don't see what the problem is. If there are statements in the article that there is any doubt about, request citations and go from there. I personally might want to see a bit more secondary or tertiary citation for some of the insights into his work that draw directly on quotes mined from Derrida's own work (primary sources). But on the whole I don't see a problem, quite frankly. The overwhelming majority of the material in the article appears likely to be verifiable from sources other than Derrida's own statements. If anything in there isn't verifiable, then follow WP:V. WP:V#Burden_of_evidence says essentially "if it's not verifiable, take it out." So if looking for a policy to soften up, maybe WP:V is another good candidate at the moment.

I notice there are some problems with the "criticism" section at the moment, which is very common in philosophy-related WP articles. To the extent that most secondary sources are also obscure w.r.t. Derrida's work, tertiary sources would appear to be helpful in bringing this difficult-to-write article into a better written and yet-more-useful article in the future. The online Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy has an article on Derrida, as does the Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy (both the full version and the brief version) and also the Macmillan Encyclopedia of Philosophy (the recently published second edition, not the 1967 one). Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy also has one that could be helpful as "grist for the mill".

Incidentally, if anyone wants to see some real OR related to Derrida, do check out the current version of deconstruction, starting right in the first paragraph. ... Kenosis (talk) 04:59, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

The solution is not to turn to further-removed sources that are easier to read; it's to find someone who is already familiar with Derrida and the most relevant secondary sources, and get that person to help with the article. Although Misplaced Pages is the encyclopedia anyone can write, that does not mean that anyone can write an article about Derrida. The same could be said for numerous topics, from philosophy to engineering to music to popular culture. Our goal is to write an encyclopedia, not a compendium of grade-school book reports. — Carl (CBM · talk) 13:19, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes. Exactly. And while the deconstruction article could use its sources more clearly, and though it's more SPOV (sympathetic point of view, not scientific) than NPOV for some sections, it's also more faithful to deconstruction than most summaries of its length that I've ever seen, and frankly doesn't bomb accessibility too horribly either. That is, though it has problems, and though the "deconstructionism cannot be defined" part should probably be moved behind a (however poor) attempt to define it, it is, frankly, one of the better tertiary sources I've ever seen on the subject. I would be loathe to lose its accuracy in favor of a rigid enforcement of NOR, especially as little to nothing in the article strikes me as particularly original. Which gets to my original point - given that deconstruction is, in practice, a pretty good article, how can we adjust this policy to reflect actual articlespace practice? Phil Sandifer 13:50, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Also agreed with Carl on that. Only if there's a disagreement or doubt about the content does even WP:V "kick in", so to speak, as to providing inline citations. If there's no disagreement, for example, about the contextual material provided at the beginning of the section of Derrida's work, don't make it into an issue, which would IMO be nothing more than wikilawyering unless a specific issue is articulated on the talk page. If there is doubt about the contextual material provided, start by consulting the available tertiary sources, several of which are of the highest level of quality, and work from there. Please do not use "Derrida for Dummies". or the Cliff's Notes for On grammatology ;-)

Another approach, as has been done with many topics that are highly technical or obscure, is to break it up into an introductory article and an advanced article. Some examples are listed at User_talk:Kenosis/Research#Basic_v._Advanced_articles. Obviously there's already some content disagreement in the "criticisms" section. Several of the available tertiary sources on Derrida are among the best in the business, and at some point in time they ought be consulted in any serious attempt to resolve oustanding issues-- assuming there's adequate interest in resolving them. But the far more noticeable problem, IMO, is not with the article on Derrida, but with the article on deconstruction which appears to be where the secondary and tertiary sources will be more useful if not absolutely necessary if the article is to be much further improved. ... Kenosis 14:22, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

To be frank, though, there is no need to adjust the policy in response to the fact that some articles are arguably quite good when citing directly to the primary source(s), as is the case in the Derrida article's section on his work. If there's an issue with the analysis, secondary and tertiary sources will be needed to support the conceptual assertions in the section on his work. IMO, it's pretty much that simple. ... Kenosis 14:39, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Again, though - it would be very helpful if we could put some anti-rules literalists language into the policy to prevent crusaders and people who are seeking a ton of maintenance edits in pursuit of an admin run from tagging stupidly. this is where I'm unconvinced the "non-specialist" clause helps us - it is seemingly intended to help ward off cranks, and I think we can do without it for crank warding, and that not having it would make the policy better reflect reality. Phil Sandifer 15:32, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed about the need for counteracting excessive literalism in policy interpretation. I have seen, for example, numerous "drive-by" unreferenced templates and citation-needed templates that arguably are quite gratuitous. It's extremely easy to say "hey, where are the references as required by policy". But somebody has to do the actual work, after all. By placing the template, a user actually sets the WP:V and WP:NOR policy analysis into motion. When this happens gratuitously, it might be best to wait for an explicit statement of what the question is about the material, and lacking an explicit statement of what the concern is (beyond the assertion that a particular passage or section is not explicitly cited), remove the template rather than the material itself, But this is also dependent on the nature of the material. Jimmy Wales' statement about WP:V, quoted on that policy page, gives high priority to eliminating unsourced negative statements in BLP's. Although Derrida is no longer alive, an explicitly derogatory statement about him would immediately merit close scrutiny. This, as with many or most situations, necessarily involves factoring in more than one aspect of editorial policy in order to arrive at a reasonably sensible resolution. ... Kenosis 17:59, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I think that all, or almost all, secondary sources on Derrida introduce POVs distinct from that of Derrida's work, and take on a life of their own outside the scope of the Derrida article. This is one of the hazards of critical studies, that every discussion of Derrida is a criticism of Derrida of one sort or another. Not necessarily opposition, but at least a different take on it. Many of the "Derrida for Dummies"-type books are actually ironic pastiches of Derrida. Using such secondary sources alone is insufficient, and you'd have to use them with great care, and support them with references to the primary sources—the exact opposite of what PSTS currently says. COGDEN 19:11, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Drawing on Derrida to provide yet another interpretation/take on his writings and philosophy would be original research. You aptly demonstrate here exactly why there is a PSTS section in the first place. Vassyana 19:45, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

As to anti-literal-enforcement language. I don't think that's the answer. If the rule is broken, let's fix it, not authorize people to break it. We can fix the rule by doing two things:

1. Replace the rule that primary source citations must be "easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge" with a requirement that any citation (primary or secondary) must be "verifiable by a person with an ordinary level of education and training in the field of the subject matter being discussed".
2. Treat primary and secondary sources under the same standard, since in technical and philosophical fields, the vast majority of secondary sources are more technical and specialized than primary sources, since they build upon the primary sources and assume them as a prerequisite. (Tertiary sources like textbooks might be less technical than the journal articles they cite, but why confuse things with a tertiary category anyway?)

COGDEN 19:11, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

1. Totally unenforceable suggestion, given the current situation. It would require a drastic change in Misplaced Pages, including a fundamental shift in the roots of the project, to allow for expert authority. Misplaced Pages in many cases does encourage experts to contribute, but still requires them to follow the same policies and practices.
2. I know this to be quite less than true, as a general rule, for philosophy and history. While some peer-reviewed papers can be horridly complex, those are almost exclusively limited to articles addressing very specific and technical points. (Even worse, the understanding and interpretation of primary philosophical and historical texts is almost unavoidably original research without secondary sources.) I also have a hard time imagining that secondary sources are more complex in most technical fields with which I am familiar. For example, books about particular programs and programming languages are usually far more understandable to the average person that the code and documentation (secondary and primary sources respectively).

I appreciate your thoughts as good faith ideas, but they are very counter to the grain of Misplaced Pages's fundamentals. Vassyana 19:45, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with your interpretation of #1 - this does not give experts special privilege - rather, it changes our editorial standards away from judging articles from the perspective of people who do not know anything about them, and demands that our articles read as good to experts. That doesn't necessarily equate to credentialism. To my mind, Misplaced Pages is based on the assumption that the people who write articles know a lot about the subject, and that we don't have to check their credentials because they're going to cite sources, be NPOV, et. Phil Sandifer 23:14, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

It most certainly does give expert editors special privilege. Allowing for information that can only be verified by experts is certainly a huge change and most certainly according special privilege. If it's just a matter of making sure articles read well to experts as well as the common editor, they are existing mechanisms for asking for expert attention on an article. Similarly, if we're still relying on normal checks for NPOV, reviewing sources, etc, then the proposal is just fuel for trouble. It is either unenforceable or enforced credentialism. Without credential verification, it becomes nothing more than an excuse to hear more claims of "But I'm an expert!" and would encourage those with an agenda to cite obscure and difficult to comprehend sources relying on the proposed expert provision to push their POV. These are already concerns present in the wiki, though the former is much mitigated since a certain false credentials debacle. Vassyana 23:44, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

But the alternative contention - that non-experts can helpfully check information on complex topics - is ludicrous. And, given that topics are likely to attract expert editors, it seems to me that raising (or lowering, depending on your perspective) the bar is not a large risk. Sure, a crank might begin citing obscure and difficult papers - but said crank is unlikely to be the only expert on the topic editing the article, and if the crank is, odds are that the article is obscure enough that one bad editor will be able to effectively derail it with or without the protection of NOR. Phil Sandifer 00:18, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Please don't misunderstand me as saying it's a change that shouldn't be made. I've taken no position on whether we should or shouldn't move in that direction in one form or another. I am simply pointing out that it is a very fundamental change in the wiki, and such a large change needs to be considered as such. Without some form of verification, the distinction just becomes a claim editors use to win arguments, justly or unjustly. A crank could control an article with claims of professional expertise drawing on esoteric and recondite references, because most "experts" on Misplaced Pages are dedicated amateurs, not trained professionals. (Upon thought, I think it would be within Misplaced Pages practice to allow for verification by those familiar with the field (without specifying professional training or expert knowledge). This would be akin to the allowance for foreign language works, though like that provision I'd imagine it'd be somewhat controversial.) Vassyana 22:45, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Vassyana, when you talk about computer books about particular code, you seem to be talking about what I would call tertiary sources, such as textbooks, where this is true. For example, while the Haskell programming language standard (primary source) might be referenced accessibly (relatively speaking; not to the layperson) in the Programming in Haskell textbook referencing it (a tertiary source), a work in the Journal of Functional Programming (a secondary source) that references the standard will be far more technical than the standard. Then a second secondary source that cites the first journal article as a primary source will be more technical and specialized still.

Likewise in other fields, you can expect that a work by Derrida (as a secondary source) will be far more technical and specialized than the works Derrida references such as phenomenology works by Husserl (primary source). Similarly, Husserl as a secondary source will be far more technical and specialized than a work of Hegel (primary source) that Husserl cites.

I disagree that this will change anything about Misplaced Pages. This is exactly how Misplaced Pages currently works. Just look at all the math and physics articles, and see if you can understand them. There are thousands of them, and they are very valuable resources. Do we delete them? Plus, this practice is fully consistent with WP:V as it has existed for years, which requires verifiability to reliable sources, but does not say anything about the qualifications of the verifier. That the average layperson cannot verify the citations in a physics article is no problem, and nobody I know of has ever seriously complained about this in the history of Misplaced Pages. The only problem I forsee is when the intended audience cannot verify the citations, which is why I'm suggesting #1, which represents a strengthening of WP:V. COGDEN 23:57, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Philosophers often draw upon other philosophers to support their claims or provide contrast. In nearly all cases, you could hardly call them secondary sources for it, with the exception of papers that specifically analyze and/or critique the work of others. To draw a parallel, an astrophysicist may draw upon special relativity for some of her claims, but that doesn't make the article a secondary source on relativity. Also, you're not very familiar with Hegel or Husserl if you think directly citing them is a good idea or easier to understand than secondary sources analyzing them. Like Derrida, they are notoriously easy to misunderstand and the in-depth study of those philosophers is the subject of graduate coursework. However, also like Derrida, the foundational concepts and contributions to philosophy can be (and are) related in a general summary fashion to undergraduate students.

An additional problem with direct citation of a philosopher's work is the propensity for original research (directly tying into PSTS I might note). It is nearly impossible to cite a philosopher's work without OR, except explicitly saying X said "Y" (which can still carry concerns of reliability and NPOV). This is because any such citation is another interpretation of their work. While cases like Derrida, Hegel and Husserl are obvious in this class, even more commonly understood philosophers still remain. Philosophers still argue the nuances, and in some cases even the essential meaning, of Aristotle and Descartes for example. Those cases which are plain to everyone obviously aren't problematic, because the plainly obvious to most/all (or "non-controversial") is a long-standing consensus-based exception to most content rules.

I'm not a science and math wizard, but there are some fairly intense and complex math/science topics on Misplaced Pages that are understandable (to me) as presented, despite my lack of in-depth subject knowledge. Can I understand complex equations and the like? No. Could I still easily verify such an equation by sight alone in a cited math text? Yes. Complex topics do not have to use language incomprehensible to anyone but experts, even if some information is difficult to understand for non-experts (such as complex equations). Additionally, your proposal specifically requires training in the field (credentialism), which is distinct from current practice. I'm sure many (if not most) of our in-house "experts" are interested amateurs, as opposed to trained professionals. Vassyana 22:45, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

This is not a proposal. This is the way it's done, and has been done for 7 years at Misplaced Pages. If you want to lobby to change this, then fine, but I doubt you'd get much traction. The purpose of policy articles "is to record clearly what has evolved as communal consensus in actual practice" (see WP:POLICY). Actual practice, as evidenced by thousands of math and physics articles, is not to have a "verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge" requirement".

If you agree that philosophers are notoriously easy to misunderstand, then why would Derrida be less easy to misunderstand than Husserl when Derrida quotes Husserl?

Another question, if you don't think that philosophers discussing other philosophers are secondary sources, then what is a secondary source? Since it's really only philosophers who publish works discussing Derrida, that means that (1) you can't cite Derrida, and (2) you can't cite anybody who cited Derrida. Who is left? Also, do you really think that Derrida discussing Husserl is easier to understand than Husserl himself? It's not true, in part because when you read Derrida, not only to you have to understand Husserl, but you have to understand Derrida's take on Husserl. COGDEN 08:39, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that it is common Misplaced Pages practice. At best, it is something permitted in a very limited area of the wiki (significantly complex math and science). Taking common practice as a whole, it is an exception not a rule. In philosophy, papers and books undertaking to specifically critique, analyze and/or explain a philosopher or philosopher are what would fall under secondary sources. Philosophical treatises citing other philosophers is just another primary paper. Something like In the Spirit of Hegel by Robert Solomon (ISBN 0195036506) would be a good secondary source on the phenomenology of spirit, for example. We should be relying on what others have published about the meaning and so on of a philosopher's work. We shouldn't be interpreting philosophical treatises directly. If the interpretation has been published before, we should be attributing the source. If it hasn't, or a reference cannot be provided, then it's original research. Vassyana 09:42, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

As they say, "it is the exception that proves the rule". And indeed, the rule is proven weak and invalid. Are math, science, and philosophy articles now the bastard children of Misplaced Pages? Do they live in the lawless frontier where where the rules aren't applicable? If so, we need to explicitly state this in PSTS. If such a statement in PSTS would fix the rule (from your perspective), it would be negligence not to do so. COGDEN 20:52, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

(outdent) Actually, the exceptions simply show that the rule is broad and not applicable in all circumstances. This characteristic of Misplaced Pages policy is well-considered and acknowledged. We even have policies that account for it (like say, Misplaced Pages:Ignore all rules). Since the rules are not meant to be all-encompassing and exacting, limited exceptions do not harm the strength or validity of the rule. Your implication that math, science and philosophy are exceptions as a whole is misleading (at best). It is a small minority of those topics that stand out as exceptions. We don't need to point out that exceptions exist, though I'm keen on including such caveats in areas of policy that are abused in a legalistic fashion. (For example 3RR includes a caveat that it's an electric fence, not a permissive limit.) Vassyana 22:54, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

We can't rely on WP:IAR to fix all the errors on policy pages. We won't have to ignore all rules if the rules are correct in the first place. Do you really think that it's better to have an flawed, but easily-fixable rule, fixed by IAR, than just to fix the rule? We have an opportunity to make the policy article conform to actual Misplaced Pages practice (see WP:POLICY). Why would we not take that opportunity? Is it because this page is an exception to WP:POLICY and WP:CONS? COGDEN 01:27, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I'd agree with your initial statement. I'm sure you're aware that I agree there are things that can be done to help make policy more accurate and inclusive. However, I'd disagree about the assertion that IAR wouldn't be necessary for "correct" rules. I believe there's no ignoring the basic principles of policy, but that the policy itself will never be all-encompassing or otherwise "perfect". The community is simply too large and the content too varied to make "correct" rules that deprecate the need for IAR without delving into extremely lengthy and complex codification. I don't think policy should be built on rare exceptions and tiny minorities. Certainly, as I mention above, I wouldn't have much issue with something that accounts for the need for verification by those familiar with the topic in limited circumstances. That's just recording common practice. Allowing for a verification standard that permits incredibly complex material only verifiable by professionals is certainly a large step away from that and from established Misplaced Pages culture. Vassyana 01:59, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

As a general comment, I believe literalism/legalism (in relation to policy interpretation) is counterproductive. After all, the rules are principles, not a civil code. Vassyana 19:45, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

As a general comment, literalism/legalism in NOR is what you appear to be insisting on. -- Fullstop 20:23, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Utterly false. My opposition to extreme simplification does not mean I support a legalistic or absolute interpretation of policy. What I mainly desire is a compromise between the various views espoused regarding PSTS. Vassyana 20:52, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Vassyana, there is not only one shade of gray (yours) between black and white.

And, that shade of gray is, contra your insistence without accompanying reason, not good for the 'pedia.

And, it would also be enormously helpful if occasionally did not say "no." The frequency with which you do does not support your supposition that you desire "compromise." People who want compromise don't talk like you do; there is no such thing as "utterly false," just as there is no such thing as "utter truth."

-- Fullstop 23:31, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

My honorable Wikipedian, needs to read the archives and the long discussions on this subject to understand Vassyana's somewhat forceful assertion. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:52, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

"My" shade of grey isn't something I purely invented ex nihilo. It was an accommodation of the principal views espoused over several months of discussion. It was further revised to address concerns raised, as practical. It was a sufficiently accurate attempt in that regard, as it generated support from those engaged over the long-term on both "sides" of the long-running dispute (for example, both Jossi and COGDEN consented to the compromise). I have failed to say "no" on multiple occasions. For example, I have often revised drafts in response to concerns and criticisms that could be handled in the framework of compromise. I do admit I have said "no" repeatedly to untenable demands, such as your own extreme solution to the issue. However, that's hardly anything indicating a lack of desire for compromise. On the contrary, rejecting all-or-nothing solutions (while accommodating the root concerns as much as possible) is part and parcel of seeking compromise. Regarding your closing comments, it's perfectly common and acceptable language to deny false accusations with statements such as "utterly false". Such a forceful reaction is perfectly within the norm and doesn't speak to my interpretation of policy or my actions in seeking compromise. Vassyana 22:45, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I have not only read the archives and long discussions on the subject, I have also participated in them.

And, as have many others, I have also repeatedly questioned the necessity of PSTs distinction, an answer for which has always been 'judiciously' evaded.

And, as have many others, I have also repeatedly questioned why it can't be dealt with on its own page (IIRC, one of those posts was in fact addressed directly at Jossi, but an answer, as for all the other questions, never came).

So honorable Wikipedians, perhaps its time you took up the challenge and answered the questions. To the point.

-- Fullstop 01:27, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

To be very blunt, if you've read the archives as well as you claim, your question has been repeatedly answered. However, I will give you an explanation, so you cannot claim you've never found an answer.

The necessity of the distinction arose due to the abuse of primary sources for original research, including unintentional errors of that sort. The abuse was noted when the distinction originally entered the policy in early 2005. The abuse was still perceived as a concern when the policy language was further refined in mid to late 2006. Imposing a drastic replacement on 2-2/3 years of standing policy requires an impressive burden of proof and consensus. (Though, my desire for compromise is rooted in the currently controversial nature of the section.)

Many primary sources are near impossible to use without violating NOR, unless following the use of such a reference by a secondary source. For example, standard citation of Caesar's Gallic War (outside of following the use of a cited scholar) is severely problematic and OR on its face. It's among the better ancient sources, as scholars acknowledge it as a pinnacle of ancient reporting. However, it's also known to be a masterpiece of propaganda and to contain numerous pieces of inaccurate hearsay. Without published expert guidance, it's entirely OR to judge whether a passage is reliable (which is what standard citation essentially does). However, we are allowed under policy to simply say The Gallic Wars reads "X". (There may also be concerns of reliability and reflecting the body of reliably published work, but those are distinct concerns of WP:V and WP:NPOV).

A common counterargument is that non-reliance on primary sources is directly contrary to standard scholarship. However, that is more an argument for PSTS distinctions, than against. Standard scholarship's aim is to produce original research. Reliance on primary sources is encouraged to help ensure less reliance on the claims of others and to exercise the scholarly tools of analysis on the "root" material, both of which are contrary to the central principles of Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages is intended to summarize what others have said, not as a forum for scholarly analysis.

There is simply a broad and strong opposition to moving PSTS from the framework of this policy. As noted above, the distinction directly relates to this policy. Vassyana 22:45, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for at least responding, even if does not answer either question. This failure may be attributed to your not listening.

As I said before, I have read the archives, and this alone should have given you reason to pause, but evidently you found it easier to assume I was stupid or lying. Oh well.

Given that nothing you say here is new, but the errors with the assumptions you make again have been pointed out repeatedly, perhaps you really need to start paying attention yourself.

Let me give you a clue that you will need to answer (either to yourself or here) before your answer becomes relevant:

Why is the distinction THE ONLY WAY to do what you think it is doing?

And yes, I do know what you think it is doing, and I also know that it is only your sheer arrogance and belief in your own self-righteousness that this is the ONLY WAY.

In your response, please spare us the concomitant condescension and "desire for compromise" pretense. It doesn't wash, and never has. Just answer the question, and keep the fluff to yourself.

Thanks. -- Fullstop 04:35, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Both questions were answered directly. No one said this was the only way to address the issue. And with that, I'm done discussing this matter with you until you can join in with some minimum level of civility and maturity. Vassyana 09:30, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Let me ask a question here. Suppose we used language like this: "Because the notability of a subject cannot generally be determined by the expert who first invents, discovers, or presents it, notability claims need to be sourced to experts with a reputation for reliability for evaluating notability in a field, and who are not directly connected to the initial invention or discovery. However, once notability is established by a neutral expert, the initial discoverer can be used as a reliable source for other facts about the discovery." A crude first start, but consider it. It seems to me that language like this could potentially describe the entire problem in terms of core Misplaced Pages terminonlogy like "notability", without the need to introduce new and potentially confusing terminology like "primary", "secondary", etc. It seems to me nobody really cares what level any given source is. All we care about is whether someone has evaluated a claim independently of the person presenting the claim, and when the presenter is recognized as an expert we only care about this for certain purposes like notability, not for all purposes. Why not say this directly? Wouldn't it make things simpler? Why the extra terminology and classification baggage? Why not stop by Occam's shop and try out a shave just to see how it would feel? No need to commit -- we can always grow the jargon thicket back if we find we can't work without it. Best, --Shirahadasha 06:08, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Thomas Kuhn says it better. When there's enough of an accumulation of things that don't quite fit, it time to start rethinking. Rethinking starts by special casews and add-ons that end up making things more complicated; when enough people find this enough of a burden, when things start feeling kinda scraggly, it's time to start looking for simplifications and to start thinking about a shift and a shave. Perhaps we're somewhere near that point. Best, --Shirahadasha 06:22, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, there is enough justified opposition towards using other terms to prevent the change. I've advocated for a shift in terminology in the past. Vassyana 09:42, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

(outdent response to Vassyana's earlier comment)

If you had answered my original question in a rational fashion (instead of trying the "to be very blunt" non-sequiturs again), I would have reiterated the problems that your premise has. Instead you were being provocative (and do so again). As I've told you before: don't dish out what you won't eat yourself.

Anyway,...

1. The focus on primary sources being more susceptible to OR than secondary sources is a chimera, a clustering illusion. That one group of sources are more prone to misuse can just as well be because they are more commonly available. It is the numerical predominance of primary sources that can make it appear as if they were the more commonly abused kind of source.
2. Inversely, secondary sources might appear to be less prone to abuse because traditionally the people who had access to secondary sources typically also knew how to use sources at all. (see also #7 below).
3. The P/S distinction is redundant when "we are allowed under policy to simply say The Gallic Wars reads 'X'."
   "Simply say X" - a.k.a "stick to the source" - is the fundamental tenet of NOR, and it doesn't then matter whether the Gallic Wars are primary or secondary. "Simply say X" applies to *all* sources.
4. "The necessity of the distinction arose due to the abuse of primary sources for original research" is based on the premise that the abuse was actually due to the "primary-ness" of the sources. I.e., the abuse was the fault of the abused, rather than of the abuser. Then, instead of tightening the rules to prevent abuse at all, what we got was a disqualification of the abused because they were abusable. Is this whacky or what?
   Said the judge to the abuser, "I see you beat your wife. I hereby throw your wife in jail. Then you won't be able to beat her."
5. The use of primary sources can be restricted without any need to categorize them. This can easily be accomplished by directly addressing what it is that makes primary sources primary. e.g. "the use of Gallic Wars is not acceptable as a source of history because history is what others make of an event." Or "because of the lack of perspective, any analysis by Caesar is not permissible."
   Allowing Gallic Wars (as far as NOR is concerned) can be expressed as: "the disqualification of de Bello Gallico as a source of history doesn't automatically preclude the policy-conform use of the book in an article on the book itself."
6. Perhaps the most frequent kind of OR is the - otherwise accurate - use of sources outside the context in which they were written. This kind of OR (e.g. citing Caesar's views on the Celts in an article on the Celts, George Bush's views on democracy in the article on democracy) won't go away by stemming primary sources when we also have secondary sources that reiterate them (in which case we might even get OR that is twice out-of-context).
7. OR abuse is rampant for sources that are accessible, and as more and more books appear on Google Books and as people begin to lock into it, the more often OR occurs for secondary sources as well. Most of the OR I see today from established editors is this kind of OR, and because NOR's PSTS addresses the symptom - but not the problem, which is abuse of sources in general - NOR is outdating itself. The infection today is not the infection of two years ago.
8. The fundamental problem of the PSTS section to NOR is the fact that the PSTS section exists at all. As explained above, the distinction between P/S/T has little or no real impact when *any* source can be misused for OR. But by focusing on what is effectively inconsequential, PSTS's distinction then actually also has a negative effect: it is a distraction.

-- Fullstop 20:34, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

1. Regardless of the reason, primary sources were more abused. It could be a matter of accessible sources, but it has not been established as the root cause and idle speculation doesn't do much for the discussion. (Also see 7.)
2. Libraries, online services and myriad other sources provide access to secondary material. This fairly universal access to such references in the Western world makes your claim dubious.
3. "Simply say X" =/= "Simply say Y reads X". This ignores the fundamental point I raised about certain sources being difficult to use without OR, except for "Simply say Y reads X"
4. False analogy, unless somehow any man couldn't be around that woman without beating her in most cases. As per 3, this ignores a fundamental point about the inherent OR problems in using some sources.
5. I agree with the essential point you raise (addressing what makes primary sources primary), but not with your elaboration. Other ancient histories are what "others made of history" (fulfilling your definition of history), but are still primary sources with the same problems in relation to OR as the Gallic War.
6. We can agree that out-of-context use is a problem, though we disagree on the degree and scope. (I've certainly advocated for language that insists on topical sources and in-context usage.) However, this does not alone account for problems with primary sources. (See 3 and 4.)
7. Feel free to prove this point and generate a consensus. Idle speculation as to the reason doesn't add much to the discussion. For example, one could argue this is the normal social process of displacement (over-simply, shunting behaviors from explicitly prohibited activity to "legally undefined" activity). Also, this does not equalize the nature and abuse potential of varying types of sources. (See 3, 4 and 6.)
8. You're certainly entitled to your opinion.

--Vassyana 23:45, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

1. No, not "regardless of the reason."
   • If primary source usage outnumbers secondary source usage by 4:1, and 10% of each are abused, then for 100 sources cited, there will be 8 primary source abuses and 2 secondary source abuses. Numerically, primary sources will seem to be abused more often than secondary sources, but in reality they are not.
   • You are obliged to have a reason. Otherwise...
     "Idle speculation doesn't do much for the discussion" includes the speculation that "primary sources were more abused," which is indeed a speculation that has not done much for the several megabytes worth of discussion.
2. So what if "libraries, online services and myriad other sources provide access to secondary material"?
   If people actually used them then we wouldn't have the preponderance of primary sources would we?
3. I didn't imply anything by putting the in brackets other than to say that "Simply say Y reads X" is a command to "stick to the sources." It does not "ignore" anything. See also #6 below.
   My original point #3 (that "the P/S distinction is redundant when 'we are allowed under policy to simply say The Gallic Wars reads X'") remains as valid as before.
4. If that is a false analogy for the reason you provide, then you threw your sole argument (that PS are susceptible to abuse) out of the window. " any man couldn't be around that woman without beating her in most cases" == as if any editor couldn't be around a source without misusing it in most cases.
5. The "elaboration" constitute examples, and its irrelevant whether you agree/disagree with the way they are phrased or not. The point was (and is) that "use of primary sources can be restricted without any need to categorize them."
   To reiterate: The use of certain kinds of sources can be inhibited even without giving them labels. They just need to be properly contextualized in relation to NOR, and not in relation to the kind of source they are.
6. The point was that OR won't go away by stemming primary sources when we also have secondary sources that reiterate the same thing that primary sources say. Even a direct quotation of sources can be OR (e.g. by taking it is out-of-context).
7. Yes, one could argue that increasing GBooks usage is the normal social process of displacement. But such a discussion would be ignoring the point I made and that you sidestep, which is that prohibiting the use of one kind of source does not solve the problem. The problem being OR, not "primary sources."
8. I'm sure that you are convinced that primary sources are not sources and thus require some kind of special treatment that sources are not generally subject to. But until I see some evidence to support it, you'll have to excuse me for considering your belief to be as useful as one in the easter bunny.
   True or not (and even if the definition of "primary sources" had not actually been made to order), it is still irrational to insist on a PSTS section that hinges solely on one (historical!) "primary sources" supposition.

-- Fullstop 03:46, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

1. A trend of misuse has been observed. Your idle speculation is no more accurate or useful than my own as to why. Observation of a trend and idle speculation as to its root cause are not equitable.
2. People being too lazy to use available resources is not the same as your original assertion that they lacked access.
3. Oh please, you explicitly equated "Simply say Y reads X" with ""Simply say X" (the latter is what you actually paired with "stick to the sources"). They are not the same thing. You are indeed ignoring my point.
4. Once again, ignoring the point. Some sources simply cannot be used directly (outside of pure "X says Y" or quotations) without engaging in original research.
5. By so defining sources, or placing sources in context in that fashion, you are by default categorizing them. It's simply a question of whether or not those categories are labeled and what categories you intend to use.
6. Once again, ignores the point that some sources cannot be used for standard direct citation without committing original research. I fully accept that out-of-context usage can be OR. However, that doesn't change or alter the point about primary sources.
7. I don't sidestep the issue at all. I've repeatedly acknowledged that secondary sources can be misused as well. However, here you once again ignore the point.
8. That's a severe twisting of my statements, to say the least.

Your twisting of other people's positions, brushing aside of central points and overall illogical approach (see for example, categorization) are tiresome. (I am not the only one to notice these traits, so it's not just me.) If you can productively participate, please do so. Otherwise, I see no reason to feed into your apparent need to turn this into debate club. Vassyana (talk) 23:10, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Secondary sources need not be verifiable by non-specialists

The present PSTS policy formulation says that statements from primary sources need to be verifiable by lay-people, but the same rule does not apply to statements from secondary sources. So in other words, in a higher mathematics article, where nobody but trained people would be able to verify, I am absolutely barred from citing the primary source for some theorem, even though I can cite (as I should be able to) a journal article that uses that theorem as part of the proof of a new theorem. The only problem is, I can't use that journal article to state what that new theorem is, because the article is a primary source for the new theorem. I can cite the proof, but not what is being proven. Is this sensible policy?

Going back to the Jacques Derrida example above, the present PSTS formulation puts us in a bit of a quandry. Suppose that Derrida is deconstructing Husserl. This is certainly a secondary source for Husserl, but also a primary source of Derrida's deconstruction. Whether or not I can cite Derrida hinges upon whether the source is primary or secondary. If Derrida is primary, I can't cite him because the citation cannot be verified by a non-specialist. If Derrida is secondary, I can cite him because secondary sources can be verifiable by experts, too. How do we decide whether Derrida's deconstruction of Husserl in this case is primary or secondary, and thus, whether or not it is prohibited? COGDEN 11:11, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

• Which part of "All sources should be used in a way that does not give rise to new analyses, syntheses or original conclusions that are not verifiable." do you find so difficult to understand? Cite the fact that sources make an analysis, don't make your own. .. dave souza, talk 13:49, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Simply citing Derrida for what he says is not a "new analysis, synthesis, or original conclusion", because it's Derrida's analysis and conclusion, not the Misplaced Pages editor's. It's also verifiable to a reliable source: Of Grammatology by Jacques Derrida. It's just that this reliable source (like any source in this field) is not verifiable except by someone with significant training in critical studies. COGDEN 20:13, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

There are plenty of sources completely accessible (both in terms of acquisition and understanding) to the average educated person. There are even plenty of references that are accessible about the more difficult philosophers and philosophies such as Derrida, Hegel and phenomenology. Vassyana 23:08, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

There are not "plenty" of them. And citing them alone would violate WP:NPOV, particularly for Derrida and other 20th and 21st Century philosophers who railed against oversimplification, and whose words have a poetic element that is erased by the secondary sources. COGDEN 01:36, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

As someone who's studied philosophy, I can tell you there are plenty of them, a veritable mountain even. You could easily fill a bookshelf with books just explaining the meaning and nuance of Hegel alone, for example. There's practically a cottage industry within academic publishing around creating explanatory texts for complex philosophers and philosophies. The philosophers' criticisms of "trite simplification" applies even more to summary style encyclopedia articles (such as we produce in Misplaced Pages) than to textbooks and other summary sources, since by nature of the format they are even further reductions of the material. Additionally, since many textbooks and similar summary sources explicitly discuss the varying interpretations of philosophers/philosophies, such sources would help us adhere to NPOV, rather than being a danger to it. Vassyana 01:48, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

• I edit mostly technical mathematics articles. Here's the wikilawyer answer: For the purposes of Misplaced Pages, peer reviewed articles that present new mathematics theorems are considered secondary sources about those theorems. This is completely independent of any meaning of 'secondary source' in history. Please note that the language in the policy is carefully written so that only field notes and results of laboratory experiments are primary sources, not results of nonexperimental logical reasoning. I watch the policy quite closely in that regard...
     Now, I would be happy not to rely on the previous paragraph's wikilawyering. What matters in practice is whether there is consensus that the source is accurately represented, and consensus that the source is not given undue weight. When we discuss these things for a math article, we never do so in terms of primary and secondary sources. — Carl (CBM · talk) 13:56, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. i have asked this before, and never gotten a wholly straightforward answer. Actually, nm - I'll break a new section off for it so as not to derail. Phil Sandifer 14:50, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

The straightforward answer, consistently with what Carl and Dave Souza just said, is that if the article is an exception to the rule, don't try to apply it. I don't see any equivalent mention of the apparent inapplicability of NPOV to this realm either. Shall we also go over and parse WP:NPOV and determine what flaws exist in that policy because they don't apply to an article that is inherently a straightforward technical matter? Here, if the "any reasonably educated person without specialist knowledge" clause doesn't apply, then arrive at a local consensus that this particular clause doesn't apply to this particular issue. As to Cogden's comment above ("The only problem is ... I can cite the proof, but not what is being proven." ), yes, if there's a debate about the validity of the content, a statement about what is being proven will require either (1) a straightforward recitation of what the primary source says is being proven, or (2) a derivative secondary source that verifies the statement of what is said to be proven byy the theorem. ... Kenosis 15:19, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

A "straightforward recitation" is not good enough, because the "accuracy and applicability" of that recitation has to be "easily verifiable" by a non-specialist. In effect, the rule says that you can't cite any primary source unless all readers can understand it. Only works written for lay audiences are citable, unless it's a secondary source, in which case, it can be written for the Ph.D-level reader. COGDEN 21:02, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I am uncertain what number of articles are exceptions to the rule, but it seems like a rather frighteningly large number. Phil Sandifer 15:21, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

As is also the case with WP:NPOV, except it shouldn't be frightening to anyone because there are no sanctions involved for good-faith editing. None of these editing policies are airtight, and all of them have aspects that don't apply to everything on the wiki. Even the limits of WP:V must be negotiated by consensus. I mentioned earlier that there's no citation at all for Ottawa being the capital city of Canada in either article. Is that a violation of WP:V or an exception to it. If I went in and demanded a citation, the local consensus could readily decide "no, it's verifiable and doesn't require an inline citation". And so it goes across the whole wiki. If I come into the article on the unnamed hypothetical mathematical theorem mentioned above and say "hey, that's a violation of WP:NOR because it only cites to a primary source", the local consensus is free, so to speak, to tell me what level of hell to go to. In the same vein, if I put an "NPOV check" template on that same article because it only represents one side of the theorem, the local consensus is free to remove it because the notion that there's any other "point of view" to the theorem is simply irrelevant. ... Kenosis 15:39, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

You seem to be acknowledging now that many articles violate PSTS, and they should violate PSTS. This is not a good policy, and if that is the policy, that some violations of PSTS are okay, then we should either (1) specify what they are, or (2) change the rule to allow what is good and prevent what is bad. Simply saying that "all rules suck, so why bother to change this one?", does not solve the problem. If NOR is overinclusive or underinclusive, let's fix it. We can rebuild it. We have the technology.

As to the comparison with WP:NPOV, there's no comparison. There are no good technical violations of NPOV. If you can point to one, I'll point to a part of NPOV that should be fixed. COGDEN 20:22, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Please desist from twisting my views in support of the legalistic, logical-positivist microparsing of this aspect of editorial policy. WP:PSTS has far fewer exceptions where it doesn't apply than does WP:NPOV, and also far fewer exceptions than a strict interpretation of WP:V. And, as has become increasingly clear, the complaints are in large part reflective of an apparent preference of some editors to do original research in WP rather than to avoid original research. ... Kenosis 21:25, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Then, as I said, point to one. Where is a "good exception" to NPOV?

As to your claim that some editors oppose WP:PSTS because they want to do OR, who are they and how do you know their "preference"? Back up your claims. COGDEN 01:36, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

A "good exception" are your words. A de facto exception to the application of NPOV would be where an assertion by an editor that an article is not NPOV is by consensus deemed completely irrelevant or irrational because it simply doesn't apply, such as where the article is a simple list. NPOV may also be completely irrelevant in a straightforward recitation of a technical matter like a standard mathematical formula or type of mathematical formula. There's no relevant NPOV discussion in boolean algebra, or Euclidean geometry vs. non-Euclidean geometry. In these types of articles, the content is either relevant to the topic or it isn't relevant, and "neutral" has nothing to do with the discussion. With WP:V, there also are numerous de facto exceptions to the policy wiki-wide. WP:V becomes an issue only where the content is questioned as to its validity. Despite the technical requirement that if someone questions the content, a citation is required or it can be removed, I just gave an example of one of numerous instances where, as a matter of practice, the policy can be overridden by consensus of editors with the simple statement "no, it's verifiable, and no citation is needed for Ottawa being the capital of Canada", thus overriding my hypothetical removal of this content per my strict literal reading of WP:V. ... Kenosis 20:41, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Are you saying that there are fields where NOR simply doesn't apply? If so, I'd like to know what they are. Are you saying that NOR is irrelevant to math, physics, and philosophy articles? I doubt that's your position.

You'll note that WP:V explicitly states the non-controversial claims need not be cited (to any source, primary or secondary). So it's actually not an "exception". It's the rule. If you can identify the "exceptions" to NOR, we can add them to the article and make them part of the rule, so that they are no longer exceptions that need to rely upon Ignore All Rules, which is a last resort, not a philosophy to live by. COGDEN 22:20, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

There you go again, attributing presumptions to things that were not part of my statements. ("Are you saying that there are fields NOR where simply doesn't apply?" and attempting to imply that "good exception" was my intended meaning, and so on with me and many other users-- but this is a whole 'nother cause for discussion, perhaps another time, perhaps in a thorough review of your own manner of shotgun-style pseudological criticism, perhaps never.) I was using the word "exceptions" to situations in which the policy analysis is not relevant, and but for your apparent and openly demonstrated stubborn determination to find things to attempt to pick holes in, I believe you're adequately smart to have known exactly what I intended to point out, but instead chose to twist it some other way. (That's right! I'm withdrawing AGF!) Therefore, other than to say that your manner and chosen direction of argument has become largely disingenuous in my opinion, I'll willingly leave you with the sense that you've made whatever point you felt you were trying to make here. Good day, or night, or whatever it is where you are. ... Kenosis (talk) 23:57, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't trying to twist your words, and I apologize if you were offended. I was just intending to ask rhetorical questions, because I do not think good rules can have fixable unstated exceptions. COGDEN 23:41, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Does anybody have concrete instances of what the PSTS distinction accomplishes?

So far there have been a pile of instances where people have pointed out that the PSTS distinction is unhelpful - Derrida, math articles, etc. What does it accomplish? That is, can people who support this distinction give some in-the-field examples where that distinction has been the policy that has governed an improvement to an article? Phil Sandifer 14:50, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Examples that have been given many times are BLPs. Disallowing material based solely on primary sources stops editors from rooting around in courthouses to find divorce proceedings, banktruptcies, and petty feuds that no secondary source has decided is worth mentioning. In the area I work in a lot -- animal rights -- the distinction is used to stop primary sources being analysed solely by Wikipedians. For example, if I watch a video of alleged animal abuse, I'm not allowed to say what I see, except in very bare terms -- no analysis, no comparisons with other videos or other allegations against the same establishment, unless a secondary source writes about the video in those terms. The limitation on primary sources stops Wikipedians from waxing lyrical, in other words. SlimVirgin 14:58, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Would you agree the issue with court records is one of due weight rather than one of accuracy? — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:11, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

The former seems to me to be a particular (and non-special) case of the "Misplaced Pages is not a tabloid" rule. That is, given that we would probably remove information about divorce proceedings or a bankruptcy even if they had gotten press coverage as they're salacious details unrelated to the subject's notability, we should have no problem doing it for ones that are sourced to court documents on the same grounds. The latter is trickier, but I suspect NPOV adequately covers it - you remove the lyrical waxings with a comment to the effect of "undue weight being given to a POV that doesn't even seem to be published anywhere." Or, at least, that's what I've generally done in situations like that. So based on these, I remain unconvinced of the necessity of PSTS. Phil Sandifer 15:12, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Right - I don't completely understand what SlimVirgin is saying about animal rights videos. As an extreme example, consider a video taken by an extremist organization after they illegally break into a lab. That video is certainly not a "reliable published source", so we shouldn't cite it for any interpretations about the conditions inside the lab. Even if we were to cite it, we would attribute the opinions to the extremist organization, because of due weight; but nobody is surprised that an extremist animal rights organization would think there is abuse. — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:16, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Primariness or secondariness here has nothing to do with it. Court records can be just as secondary as tabloid journalism. For example, the attorney may play an audiotape of surveillance to the court, and what is said transcribed by the court reporter. That's a secondary source. The courthouse also has briefs, which are also secondary as to their subject matter. What Misplaced Pages is really against is unreliable sources--sources that have not been published. An unpublished transcript is unreliable. But it's not original research. COGDEN 21:09, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

This semantic definition of primary/secondary is not how the sources are commonly treated in scholarship (as has been repeatedly explained and proven to you) and certainly does not reflect the common understanding and usage in Misplaced Pages. Vassyana 23:01, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

It isn't? What about Henige, David (1986), "Primary Source by Primary Source? On the Role of Epidemics in New World Depopulation", Ethnohistory, 33 (3): 292–312, at 292, doi:10.2307/481816 ("he term 'primary' inevitably carries a relative meaning insofar as it defines those pieces of information that stand in closest relationship to an event or process in the present state of our knowledge. Indeed, in most instances the very nature of a primary source tells us that it is actually derivative.…istorians have no choice but to regard certain of the available sources as 'primary' since they are as near to truly original sources as they can now secure.")? Just to name one. Do you have evidence that Henige, or many other works that say the same thing in different words, do not reflect commonly-accepted scholarly definitions? COGDEN 01:59, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

We've been over this again and again and again. I've provided multiple sources (on multiple occasions) showing the lack of universal definition, including differing definitions both between and within fields. I really have no desire to rehash past conversations again. Suffice it to say, it's not the operative definition in Misplaced Pages (though it could be considered part of the operative meaning used here). Vassyana 02:05, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I've seen different definitions, but never inconsistent definitions. There are "rough-and-ready" definitions for beginners, but the same people giving those defintions give fuller, more nuanced definitions when speaking in academic contexts. It's like when your Catholic school teacher defines Christianity as "belief in Jesus", while later in Catholic seminary, the same teacher may explain that yes this is true, but then there's the whole bit about the Trinity and stuff like how to classify Manicheanism and the Bahá'í Faith, etc. The first "children's definition" is valid, and good for some purposes within a limited range of thinking, but when difficult classification issues come up, it doesn't reflect real academic thinking on the issue. COGDEN 23:54, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

The distinction and the paragraph in this policy has been very useful in educating new contributors to fiction articles. It was one of the essentials around which my rewrite of WP:WAF centered, because the unfortunately-not-only-cliché "fan editor" who enthusiastically starts writing about his/her favourite fiction-related topic often has no experience in evaluating sources for the semantic levels of material they can be used to back up. NOR is a subtle thing, and most violations happen innocuosly because editors don't know about the distinction between primary and secondary sources. So, speaking from that corner of Misplaced Pages, I say this paragraph (potential improvements notwithstanding) is indeed very useful. I dorftrottel I talk I 18:00, December 3, 2007

Fair enough. Though literary interpretation seems to me different than other syntheses I'm hard pressed to explain why, and it may just be that I'm an English PhD student and so I care more about literary interpretation than other things. I wonder, though, if it might not be better to have a PSTS section in WAF that would better and more specifically serve the needs of that page. That said, it's been months since I've looked at WAF, and I have no idea what sort of state it's in. Phil Sandifer 18:19, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I think the main issue I have with removing this from generally applicable policy and moving it into specialised guidelines is that there is an increasing number of "policy-literate" folks who know how to wikilawyer their way around following a guideline, because it's just a guideline, not policy. Please believe me, I wouldn't say this if I hadn't witnessed it many times over. A compromise I'd agree to could e.g. consist of a less restrictive wording here in NOR which still marks the distinction as generally relevant and refers to specialised MOS subguidelines (as far as they exist) for details on how to deal with the issue in various specific fields. I dorftrottel I talk I 19:12, December 3, 2007

WP:WAF is exactly the opposite policy as PSTS. WAF states that primary sources are required, and any secondary sources must be backed up with primary sources. I don't necessarily think that's a bad policy, but it severely undermines and contradicts PSTS. COGDEN 21:15, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Um... having just looked at WP:WAF, I think you are misstating things a bit. Yes, any "In Universe" information (ie non-interpretive material about the piece of fiction such as its plot or characters) needs to be cited to the primary source (the fiction itself), but it clearly states that interpretive stuff needs to be sourced to secondary sources. The guideline seems to match what PSTS says, and even points directly to the PSTS section. Am I missing something? Blueboar 21:38, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

First, WAF is a MOS how-to subguideline, not policy. Next, "any secondary sources must be backed up with primary sources" — where within WAF do you read that? Also, your opinion that it "undermines and contradicts" PSTS tells me that you probably haven't spent too much time around e.g. typical Star Wars related articles. Many only use primary sources (at best), and most articles are more or less pure plot summaries. When I rewrote WAF, I attempted to properly introduce the notion of PSTS into the guideline for the first time. That's why I insist that PSTS is so important, especially to WAF: People try to constantly water down those guidelines in order to allow trivia sections, allow exclusive use of primary sources, etcpp. All in all Cogden, I appreciate your input, but I think you must not know what you're talking about. Any attempt to educate others about encyclopedic standards is a tedious battle, and I daresay I managed to do a somewhat decent job at WAF. Try and compare the current state of that guideline with that from before my rewrite. I dorftrottel I talk I 22:56, December 3, 2007

Here's what I'm talking about: "primary information describes information that can only be taken from primary sources.... secondary information describes external information taken from and preferably backed up with secondary sources.... Use as much secondary information as necessary and useful...not more...." I guess you're right that primary sources here do not have to be backed up by secondary sources. So that means primary sources are favored all the more. You cannot use secondary sources to say something about "primary information" (because such information "can only be taken from primary sources"). The primary source is mandatory, and no secondary sources allowed, except to provide a little background information, but not too much. COGDEN 01:59, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

You mean "not more and not less"? Did you check where "not more" links to? Also, I don't believe you're seriously suggesting that it is somehow possible to write any work of fiction without using that work of fiction as a source, do you? But this is getting off-topic here. How about presenting your concerns at WT:WAF instead? I dorftrottel I talk I 02:26, December 4, 2007

No, I absolutely agree that any article on a work should probably cite the work it discusses, rather than some fanzine-filtered secondary source "version" of that work. Primary sources are almost always more neutral and more accurate than secondary source (with the proviso that almost all secondary sources are also primary sources too, for their conclusions, interpretations, and syntheses). By the way, I made a couple edits to the WAF article to provide for the possibility that secondary information can be proven by primary sources. For example, you can verify an author's age (secondary information) based on a published interview of him (primary source). Plus, while fanzines are unreliable secondary sources as to original source's fiction, they may be good primary sources as to the fanzine or the fanfic (if the subject is notable). I think this is one policy area where the primary/secondary idea is useful, so long as the policy is stated accurately. COGDEN 03:06, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

What I see WP:WAF saying is this: To write about what the book says, cite the book; to write about what it means, cite independent sources. This seems perfectly sensible, but it certainly contradicts the idea that secondary sources are universally superior to primary sources as a basis for article content. Fortunately, we seem to have jettisoned that bit of excess baggage from PSTS, and now have a more balanced approach to the use of each. I still fail to see the necessity to engage in source typing at all. Sources must be used appropriately, and what is appropriate varies on a case-by-case basis. Dhaluza (talk) 00:56, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Fiction in Misplaced Pages

Fiction on Misplaced Pages is one of the worst examples of laziness over good standards. The citing of the fictional material directly is most often justified by the supposed lack of sources addressing the topic. Like nearly all such complaints about a general lack of sources, this is just not true. (And regardless, if we don't have enough independent sources for an encyclopedic article, we shouldn't have the article.) For any given show, even short-lived and relatively unpopular programs, there is a mountain of periodicals that explain the show's principal characters, plot and so forth. Such publications come in both mass-market and industry-orientated varieties. For popular shows, the coverage is intense within those periodicals and also includes numerous books dedicated to the program. There are OR elements of interpreting character traits and plots involved in directly citing artistic works. There are additionally NPOV concerns regarding what elements of the story and characters are important to cover that cannot ever satisfied by directly citing the primary material. To be honest, I find this appeal to laziness to be one of the most pathetic and disheartening aspects of the Misplaced Pages community. We're supposed to make a high-quality encyclopedia, accommodating those who cannot or will not access quality sources is not the route to take. Vassyana 03:17, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree... and what you say is also applicable to plots of movies. The editors at the Wikiproject Films, have agreed that it is OK to use movie itself to write a plot, in what could be considered a violation of NOR... ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:21, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

As long as there is no interpretation going on, there is no violation. Making descriptive claims is not interpretation. If I say, "In his first mission as Agent 007, Bond goes to Madagascar in pursuit of an international bomb-maker named Mollaka," that's not original research, that's stating precisely what happened in the film, which is easily verifiable by watching the movie.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 03:29, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Plot summaries, so long as nobody would disagree with them, are fully consistent with WP:V, and are not original research. Plus, WP:WAF is a policy. Now, you can argue that WP:WAF does not reflect true consensus, but then I'd argue right back that PSTS, too, does not reflect true consensus and should be changed. It's Policy vs. Policy. Who will win? COGDEN 22:29, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

WP:PSTS: "To the extent that an article or particular part of an article relies on a primary source, that part of the article should... only make descriptive claims about the information found in the primary source, the accuracy and applicability of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims about the information found in the primary source, unless such claims are verifiable from another source. Examples of primary sources include...artistic and fictional works such as poems, scripts, screenplays, novels, motion pictures, videos, and television programs." The only concern with writing plot summaries is if a writer strays from the limitation of being descriptive and crosses into interpretations and assumptions, which would then be a violation of WP:NPOV and WP:NOR. It's the same process as consolidating any source on Misplaced Pages -- we rewrite the content in a new manner, and we need to review it to ensure that the information stays descriptive. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 03:46, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Erik, and Bignole ... the question Vassyana is asking: Why not to use secondary sources that must be abundant? Why to run the risk (which I have witness in several articles about films) of violating NPOV and NOR in such plot summaries? And what bout our readers? How can they trust these plots? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:54, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

The readers can't and they shouldn't. :)

Incidentally, only yesterday I fixed a case of obvious OR in the plot section of a Simpson's episode article that is both GA and candidate for FA! I hadn't seen the episode, but the OR was obvious anyway.

This OR wasn't caused by agenda or anything like that; it was just plain ignorance of how to guard against OR. -- Fullstop 04:08, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Jossi, the same question can be asked about any source that's implemented. At the beginning of my editing run, I used only online sources. Then I learned to tap databases like Access World News. I'm citing something that some people may not be able to access right away, so I could easily introduce false information about a topic, such as citing reviews but re-wording them to make it sound like a critic liked it or disliked it. I think the key here is WP:AGF. I agree with Vassyana that a lot of fictional topics on Misplaced Pages need massive care. The problem is that fans write about what's near and dear to their heart, which may not fit WP:FICTION or WP:NOT#PLOT. I participate in quite a few AfDs to expunge in-universe compilations. Research is not easy for everyone -- a comic book fan would rather be wrapped up in the DC Universe and its superheroes, rather than looking at interviews about why writers and artists chose to take this particular approach with the storyline and the characters. There are users like TTN and Collectonian that are working very hard to compress fictional topics into real-world context, especially TV show articles that have nothing but plot detail in them. What needs to be encouraged are larger, more popular Wikias where fans can write everything about their favorite fictional topic, and they can come to Misplaced Pages for the real-world context. I've tried to suggest a transwiki to a Wikia (as one usually exists for a popular topic) in AfDs. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 04:01, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes Erik, I understand your point, and appreciate your candor. These questions still remain: (a) What is better for Misplaced Pages: My summary of a plot, or the summary of a plot written in a secondary source; and (b) Why film plots are any different than an interpretation of the Bible? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:27, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

The summary of a plot written in a secondary source would still be rewritten by an editor if he or she did not quote at length. Whether we watch the film or have a script of the film handy, information is consolidated in the same manner. As for the Bible, I'm not sure what you're trying to ask here. Passages from the Bible are quoted without issue, but descriptions of copyright works like films or books are derivative works. We limit the content for this reason. I don't think there's truly any appropriate way to write out the plot of the film than watching it in many cases. The argument's been made that sources should be published, but this seems to me to be semantics. A film is in a static form and can be easily reviewed to present descriptive detail about the plot. Sorry if I'm all over the place here, 'cause I'm not quite clear what you're trying to ask. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 04:46, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I believe our responses were directed specifically at your response. How can one trust any information cited on Misplaced Pages? How can I trust something you've cited from a book that I don't own, and isn't available online? How do I know you weren't just making it up, or using your own bias to interpret a certain passage a particular way? I don't. I have to trust that you are using the source appropriately, and I have to trust that someone else who has access to the source you used can verify that you weren't using your own original research. Online sources are not the only sources available, nor are they the best sources available. When someone cites anything that cannot be verified by simply clicking a link we are giving them our trust that they were not using original research, or violation a neutral point of view when they pulled from their sources. Citing a movie for itself is no different. I would suggest, that if there is any statements in a film plot that look "interpretative", that someone cite the minutes and the dialogue exchanged so that it can be readily available for verification by other editors.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 04:05, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree with Vassyana, especially with the last part: "We're supposed to make a high-quality encyclopedia, accommodating those who cannot or will not access quality sources is not the route to take." Clearly, not only must research for reliable, third-party sources be encouraged to back up plot summaries, but also the addition of real-world context material that requires secondary sources anyway. I think many shy away from adding anything but trivia and/or plot summaries simply because those require no additional research, or so they think. As for transwiki-ing unsuitable articles, Deckiller once started http://annex.wikia.com/Main_Page, but it wasn't a big success, for lack of centralised discussion. Strike that. The project appears to be alive, I just hadn't looked there for quite some time. Shame on me. I dorftrottel I talk I 04:20, December 4, 2007

Please show me where it says "no primary sources" in any policy. Not all information requires secondary sources. I can write up an entire production section of a film article with primary sourcing. I.E., interviews are considered primary sources, and I can write a production section on interviews with the cast and crew of a film. Secondly, you may not be able to find a film plot summarized well enough for "re-summarization"--yes, I mean precisely that, because we can't go steal a reviewer's personal description of the plot--for every film, even really notable ones. They may hit some key points they feel are relevant for their given review, but they may not hit ones that were relevant to the film itself.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 04:26, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

You're right, technically. The problem is that too many fiction-related articles are still a completely unreferenced mess. In the face of that, demanding research is a good thing. Even if a source cannot be copied, it would provide clues as to what the key aspects of the plot are and make for a very good reference in the article. And it would show that contributors are actually willing to research and read before they write. The problem is with accomodating those who are not willing or capable to do proper research (many are too lazy to even Google!), to read and use sources. Those few who are actually capable of writing a sound plot summary only using the work of fiction itself (and related primary sources) are incredibly outnumbered by those who can't. I dorftrottel I talk I 04:44, December 4, 2007

Read any number of other sources cited for other information, you could piece together what the film is about. Unfortunately, we are all outnumbered when it comes to people who cannot do proper research. You want to know what will happen if you pass a regulation that plot summaries must have secondary sources? One of two things. Either we'll have nothing but mass quotes from reviews, or people will stop writing them period. For some people, it isn't a matter of them being "lazy", but just not having the necessary skills to research well. You say "too lazy to even Google", but I know plenty of people who cannot even use Google to it's best efficiency. You have to remember that the majority of editors on Misplaced Pages aren't 35 year old PhDs, who have a background in research. I've met people from 12 to 40, with varying research skills between them, and not always in the direction you'd think. Just because we have editors who produce original research, or POV plot summaries doesn't mean that forcing them to find a secondary source will change any of that. What happens if I find a secondary source that isn't a url, or something you cannot view unless you have the physical copy in front of you? Are you going to say that the source is no good because you cannot click a link and verify the plot information I pulled from it?  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 04:55, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

"just not having the necessary skills to research well"? If "lazy" constitutes a breach of good faith, saying someone lacks the necessary skills surely must be a personal attack... Anyway, people who can't even Google for a source shouldn't contribute to an encyclopedia project. I dorftrottel I talk I 05:20, December 4, 2007

No. You attacked their character, I was simply iterating that not everyone has the same skill level when it comes to researching; that was something you were basically alluding to when you stated that the reason the articles are in bad shape is because these editors are "lazy", and not because they may not know how to research very well. There's a difference. I know plenty of people who can research sources better than I can, but I know plenty that cannot do it at all, because they haven't developed the eye for good sources and bad sources. Not a huge deal, because it comes with time and practice. Regardless, you didn't answer my question. What makes it any different when you cannot view a literature source, and have to take the word of the editor citing that source? There is no difference. As easy as it would be to go down to the publich library, university library, or some other resource location, it's just as easy to get a copy of the movie/television show and verify the content stated, while at the same time making sure that they haven't introduced original research into the plot. Hell, you don't even have to do that, because you can usually spot potential original research in an article anyway, and if it looks suspicious, then just reword it/remove it/start a discussion on it on the talk page.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 13:00, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Now, dorftrottel, you know that wasn't his intention. Simply put, some people are better and more skillful than others at researching material. What's wrong with speaking the truth? Liquidfinale 09:23, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

In addition, can someone tell me how citing a work of fiction itself for its plot summary is any different to citing a video interview with the director, a DVD commentary, or something else non-print, for (say) the production section? Well…it just isn't. It's not even different to my opening up a book or a magazine and paraphrasing for the same. Unless someone is willing to make a case for a Misplaced Pages-wide change to demand sourcing from written, online articles only, there's no argument to be had here, especially considering the problems we'd have in locating plot summaries for every article which requires one (especially older films, TV shows and novels, I would imagine). But I do agree that some plot summaries are either too long, too detailed, or contain too much interpretation ("Feeling conflicted over his twin desires to escape the city and to retrieve his father's watch…"), but instead of barring the use of primary sourcing for plot summaries, we should instead focus on properly educating Misplaced Pages users in the correct way of going about it. I would support, and participate in, a rework of the Plot guideline in the Manual of Style for Films (or elsewhere, if there's a better place for it) to get this across more forcefully. And not to hammer it home, but as long as the summary is written with as little interpretation as possible (e.g. "Butch hears a toilet flush; Vincent Vega exits the bathroom and Butch shoots him dead"), history has shown that there are relatively few problems beyond a sometime failure to adhere to the wider points of WP:NOR and WP:POV. After all, even WP:CITE says that attribution is only required "for...material that is challenged or likely to be challenged." Now, when there are problems with the method (e.g. "how do we know Butch hears the flush, eh?"), the routes open to us are, yes, find a citation for it if necessary. But also to look for a consensus; other people will have seen the film. The offending passage may even be removed if it has little impact ("Vincent Vega exits the bathroom and Butch shoots him dead.") You may not find this ideal, but the proof is in the pudding and, for the most part, it has worked thus far on Misplaced Pages. Difficulties emerge from time to time, but they're surely only a few moments thought away from resolution. Several times I've run up against a plot summary which contravenes all kinds of policies; it's been the work of ten minutes to rework some of them. And the problems (which I don't deny) of primary sourcing are still a drop in the ocean compared to the more common edit wars involving conflicting citations from two or more ostensibly-reliable secondary sources. Best regards, Liquidfinale 09:23, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for a bit of fresh air in the midst of some excessive demands for a strictly legalistic interpretation of WP:NOR and WP:PSTS. Plot summaries do indeed get worked out by consensus, and their validity is verified by others who also are familiar with the particular work of fiction. PSTS isn't that complicated, and in the event there is a disagreement about the sourcing, it should indeed be worked out in a consensus process by those familiar with the work. According to PSTS, where a primary source is used as the source of a plot summary (e.g., the film or other original presentation of the work) the only restriction is that the plot summary should not make analytical claims about the plot. If someone puts in a statement in the WP article that, for example, "the final death scene of the film is a metaphor for the psychological death of losing a loved one ", that will require secondary source(s) unless the film itself says "this scene here is a metaphor for the psychological death of losing a loved one ". If people involved in the WP article want to use a written screenplay as a primary source, in addition to the film iself, they do so by consensus. If people involved in the article want to use secondary sources like commentaries and interviews to summarize the plot, there's no hint of anything in the policies to prevent this. The only proscription w.r.t. PSTS is against using the book or film itself to analyze the book or film beyond giving a straightforward plot summary that can be verified by anyone else who's read or seen the work. ... Kenosis 13:37, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for all your comments. I would argue that this statement but instead of barring the use of primary sourcing for plot summaries, we should instead focus on properly educating Misplaced Pages users in the correct way of going about it, puts it quite well. The fact remains that many plot summaries are violating NOR, with too much detail, too much editorializing, and too much personal opinion, and indeed editors of these articles need to be cautioned not to cross the line into what is not permissible. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:25, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

But that has nothing to do with using primary sources, and all to do with simply informing new editors of the proper way to summarize a plot. Maybe the MOS for films needs to be a bit more specific. I don't know. But most new editors don't know any of the rules of Misplaced Pages, let alone the guidelines or style manuals that we have. It's less about what they are using the cite and more about how they just go about writing it in general. It wouldn't matter if you required secondary sources or not, because if you did, editors would still write plots without secondary sources. The only thing one would accomplish would be more needless edit wars.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 17:28, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

It has everything to do with not using primary sources such as the film itself to analyze the film itself. It is, though, completely consistent with policy to use either the primary source(s) or secondary sources, or both, as sources for the plot summary. Secondary sources such as reviews, and/or tertiary sources such as compendia of film plots, can be handy ways of summarizing plots and the policy actually encourages their use by way of stating that primary sources should be "used with care because it is easy to misuse them". But there's nothing in current editorial policy that prevents the use of primary sources such as the film itself for plot summaries, nor, IMO, should there be. If people want to bring articles on films or other works of fiction more into compliance with editorial policy, they should simply remove the extra commentary and analysis, along with any other "editorializing" about a plot, unless the analysis is drawn from secondary or tertiary sources. As a practical matter, such commentary probably should not be interwoven in a plot summary anyway. Like Liquidfinale pointed out, if someone cares to invest a bit of time to improve one or more of these articles, it appears fairly straightforward to remove most of the extraneous commentary with edit summaries like "removing personal POV from plot summary" or "Removing OR", or other appropriate description of the cause for the removal of the extraneous statements, adjectives, adverbs, etc. It sure would be nice to me if this weeding-out process were equally as striaghtforward in many of the Category:Philosophy articles. ... Kenosis 20:00, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

PSTS presently goes further than just barring the use of films to analyze the film itself. It also bars obvious and non-controversial summary or interpretation of the film—the type of summary that is explicitly allowed by WP:V and WP:WAF. The present PSTS language also bars using films to analyze other films. There is nothing wrong with citing one film that analyzes another film, such as This Film is Not Yet Rated. Films such as this are defined as a "primary source" for purposes of PSTS, even though they are a secondary source with respect to the movies analyzed. COGDEN 00:11, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Just a comment releated to the above : remember that this should apply to all fiction on WP, not just films. I'm wondering if we should scope Writing About Fiction into MOSFICTION, of which then MOSFILMS can inherit from. --MASEM 18:14, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Why does WP:PSTS allow primary sources for movies and tv series, when requiring secondary sources would help get rid of all the non notable fancruft? -- Jeandré, 2007-12-09t12:53z

The word "fancruft" immediately implies that it's unreliable, by calling it a form of cruft. If it's deemed by consensus of those involved in the article to be unreliable, then the participants can analyze it under WP:V#Reliable_sources, and don't use the material at all. Or if it's widespread and so notable that some particular take on the film or TV series can't seem to be ignored, cite it accordingly to put it in perspective for the reader. The word "fancruft" may also further imply bias or motive, and when this is the case, it appears likely to fall under an NPOV analysis as well. ... Kenosis (talk) 13:54, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

If primary sources were not allowed, you would not be able to mention once single fact about the work that you found by reading or viewing the work; if it isn't in a secondary source, you can't use it. It's just stupid to tie editors hands to that extent. Misplaced Pages is all about free access to information. I find it infuriating that people "contributing" to these policies seem to want to prevent editors from using reliable information at every turn. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 15:43, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

More or less agreed. Except that it's simply not the case that the policy ties editors' hands by preventing the use of primary sources-- at most that's either a misunderstanding by some, or a misreading of the plain language on the policy page, or in a certain few cases propaganda against the WP:PSTS policy that's been rendered on this talk page. There's no rule against using primary sources (it's in fairly plain English on the policy page) but only a directive that requries us essentially to be much more stringent in sticking to the facts when using primary sources. If the editors of an article on a film or TV series want to summarize plots directly from primary sources such as a film, the editorial goal, the policy, is to stick to the facts in such a way that persons who've watched that film or series would readily agree the plot summary or reporting of a particular scene agrees with the primary source. If the reporting involves stating, e.g., who's in the film or TV series or how the storyline goes or what color clothes an actor was wearing in a certain episode, that's straight-up use of the primary source because anyone can go watch the film or part of the series and double check it. If they disagree and come back to the article and say "hey, so-and-so isn't in that film!", the editors can deal with it accordingly. If "so-and-so" isn't in certain episodes, for example, then that's a normal part of editing an "open-source" encyclopedia like this one, and the article editors can talk it through and collectively figure out how to explain that to the reader in such a way that it makes better sense. And so forth. But nowhere does it say you can't use primary sources. .... Kenosis (talk) 16:44, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I didn't mean unreliable, I meant not notable tho it may be end-of-the-world important for fans and fansites. Yes you can buy a VHS tape of some TV show on ebay, and see that the character for which a page was made was born on planet Zorqan; but without reliable published secondary sources it's not notable enough for an encyclopedia. Quoting original research published in peer reviewed journals I can understand, but why allow non notable info to be included by allowing TV shows and movies as primary sources?

Surely Misplaced Pages is about notable information, not all information? -- Jeandré, 2007-12-09t21:26z

You obviously know that the answer to the question "Can the subject of an article be notable if there are no secondary sources for it?" is no, per WP:N. Allowing TV shows etc. as primary sources, per WP:PSTS doesn't override that: apart from actually providing the useful definitions of primary and secondary sources, PSTS is concerned with statements that are made in articles on subjects that have already been proven notable. The only place that your man from Zorqan could be written about (in descriptive terms only because he only has a primary source) is within an article about the program or series in which he appears (with the same notability rule applying to the program or series of course), see WP:NNC. I'm pretty sure I've got that right - someone will quickly jump on me if not!  —SMALLJIM  23:53, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

law / articles about legal cases

I have some distinct opinions about the above (activist videos have recently shown up on another article, too; technical "source distinctions" should be used when helpful to explain things but should not, themselves, form the basis of policy or guidelines; I think of encyclopedia articles as akin to "review articles" in science) but that's all being said to death in one form or another. So here I have another area of writing & scholarship that hasn't been discussed but poses another set of issues; perhaps this will be a useful test case for people to test their opinions & proposals against.

Articles about law pose several issues for original research, particularly articles about legal cases. The opinion is itself a (cited) synthesis of research and is simultaneously the subject of other, conflicting opinions -- scholarly, popular, and legal/authoritative. Very few statements in a case unambiguously mean what they say -- we lawyers will certainly find ambiguity in any statement, over time. In practice, those of us who write on legal topics don't have much difficulty navigating this field; but attempting to apply the various iterations of WP:PSTS (I'm tempted to think of this as "WP:PTSD") clouds the issue, for me, at least. It's a good bit like the philosophy problem, above, except that citation practices are quite formalized in law and often very particular to individual quotes.

Discuss amongst yourselves. (-: Lquilter 16:44, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

My understanding is that court documents are considered primary sources. This would include the Judge's decision. Its perfectly acceptable to include a declarative statement about a legal decision in an article on something that directly relates to the case (for example: a biography of one of the litigants), and it is fine to cite that decision to back that declarative statement ... but any analysis or interpretation of the decision... any discussion of what that decision means beyond the narrow context of the individual case should be referenced to reliable secondary sources such as legal journals. Blueboar 21:54, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Court documents are considered primary if they are a primary or original source of the information on the topic, but if not, then they are secondary. It all depends on how the court document is used. Any source "may be primary or secondary, depending on what the researcher is looking for". Monagahn, E.J. & Hartman, D.K. (2001), "Historical research in literacy", Reading Online 4 (11). COGDEN 02:20, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

By most scholarly definitions of "primary source", the Supreme Court is a primary source. It's not difficult to imagine a case where the Supreme Court disagrees with virtually all law professors. The Solomon Amendment case, Rumsfeld v. Forum for Academic and Institutional Rights, Inc., may have been such a case. How could we handle such an outcome? By most reasonable definitions of "primary source", the Supreme Court is a primary source. Do we really want to say that the U.S. Supreme Court, as a primary source, can't be quoted in a law article and that old law review articles must be preferred to its recent decisions when the two disagree? Functionally, the Supreme Court represents one of many examples of non-academic bodies that conduct peer review. Its function is to peer-review other legal decisions, and it only takes cases it considers notable (and its calls on notability are widely accepted in the field). Thus it functions in its field in a way that permits its decisions to be regarded as reviews of legal matters in a way that reliably permits basing notability on its actions. But by the primary-secondary-tertiary source schema, a Supreme Court opinion is a primary source. Best, --Shirahadasha 02:22, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

the decision is the the authoritative source for what it says, but not necessarily for what it means. The primary-secondary distinction is not relevant here, except to the extent that finding a reliable summary of even what the decision says may be best done from a secondary source--not necessarily even a law review, but a reliable quality newspaper. DGG (talk) 05:16, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

You absolutely may quote a Supreme Court decision... The only caveat is that you should stick to discussing exactly what the decision says, and not include any interpretation or analysis the decision unless you have a reliable secondary source that does so. Declarative statements about what a court document says (ie quotes from the document) can be cited to the primary source (the document itself)... Statements about what the document means (analysis or interpretation), on the other hand, need to be cited to secondary sources. Its that simple. Blueboar 14:32, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

This is true of any source. Why make a distinction between primary and secondary if the same rule applies? COGDEN 00:28, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

What about what a court says about another court? What if it's an inferior court's decision on a superior court's decision? ... Answering own question: I think you just have to say that "x-and-x courts have interpreted this as xyz, a view which has been followed by all the courts that have examined the issue" etc. I agree that secondary/tertiary is not helpful here -- "secondary" would be law reviews, newspapers, etc. -- but more relevant are the cascade of "authority": statute & cases first; followed by regulations & administrative interpretations & AG opinions; some of the most authoritative treatises or scholars that achieve widespread acclaim; all the rest of them; etc. This is what every first-year law student learns -- secondary/tertiary distinctions exist but are not that important, even in writing legal encyclopedias. --Lquilter 14:39, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, this is an important example of where secondary and tertiary literature are vital. Secondary literature is indeed inclusive of law reviews and newspapers, as well as numerous law summaries by competent lawyers and law professors. Tertiary sources include AmJur, legal hornbooks and a wealth of various other reliable legal summary material that specializes in integrating and analyzing the many important aspects of case law and statutory law. It most certainly is not our job in WP to be analyzing court decisions without benefit of secondary and tertiary sources. If the issue has to do with a specific court decision and how it affects public policy or other aspects of people's pursuits in the context of a particular WP article, secondary sources are similarly vital, and presently required by WP editorial policy so as to not conduct our own WP:Original research such as may be expected of law students, lawyers, professional legal researchers, law clerks and judges (indeed all of these frequently rely quite heavily on secondary and tertiary sources for their own background research). Any complaints within WP about reliability, or lack therof, of secondary and/or tertiary sources, can be discussed by participants in an article under a WP:Verifiability#Reliable_sources analysis. ... Kenosis 15:33, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

But why must we distinguish b/w secondary & tertiary? --Lquilter 16:25, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

There is absolutely no need to make any distinction between secondary and tertiary sources, let alone a hard-and-fast one. The utility of tertiary sources, though, wherever one chooses to draw the transitional stage between secondary and tertiary, is presently mentioned on the policy page. And the mention of tertiary sources also resolves the conceptual question of "what is Misplaced Pages?" as well as the question of what are other encyclopedias and other resources that feature summaries based upon very large numbers of primary and secondary sources. As with all the editorial policies including WP:V, it generally requires some degree of flexibility, some degree of respect for other people's often differing approaches and ideas, some degree of thinking about the editorial approach, some degree of interpersonal interaction, some degree of discussion as may be necessary, and some degree of reasonable judgment, in order to arrive at reasonable results that will be useful to a reader of the content. This is particularly the case where there are disagreements about a topic among those interested in that topic. Editors who are unwilling or unable to discuss with other editors how to arrive at a reasonable judgment in applying policy to editing practice, in my estimation, will tend to find editing very difficult with or without these core content polices. I say this in defense of the PSTS section in light of the obvious fact that the "lines" between primary, secondary and tertiary are not hard-and-fast and, as with other policies, may require discussion to arrive at a workable result in a particular wikiproject or a particular article. ... Kenosis 19:34, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Well argued, thanks. A breath of fresh air... ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:55, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Don't breath too much of it. We still haven't made any headway in determining which legal sources are primary and which are secondary, and why it even matters. You apply the same rules for any type of source, regardless of primariness, because all legal sources are both primary and secondary, depending on how they are used. For cases, you might say that the true primary sources could be the briefs, court papers, transcripts, and precedent. After all, the judge is just commenting on the evidence placed before her—just creating a secondary source from primary materials. Every legal source is both primary and secondary, and there's no principled way to distinguish them except by pulling definitions out of our asses that have nothing to do with the idea of "primariness" or "secondariness" and add WP:CREEP. We need a principled policy. COGDEN 00:28, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but no. Any randomly chosen group of twelve lawyers would be almost certain to arrive at a consensus that legal cases and legislated laws are primary sources, IMO. And yes, a group of participants in an article about a legal topic could readily decide that so too are the briefs and testimony and other specific documents that make up the content of a single court case. And similarly it goes with legislation, where various documents are involved prior to the publication of the official legislation. I could understand that there might be some debate about whether, say, CFR is primary or secondary, but this kind of topic-specific determination should IMO be left to the local consensus in such a way that if a particular dispute requires WP:Comment, WP:Mediation or WP:Arbitration, that a group of reasonably educated commentators, mediators, or arbitrators can handle the situation as may be needed, without needing specialist knowledge to do it. ... Kenosis (talk) 04:47, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Local consensus cannot trump Misplaced Pages-wide policy. If we say (as we currently do) that secondary sources "draw on primary sources to make generalizations), and we admit that court records and briefs are primary sources, then ipso facto, legal opinions are secondary source. Of course, they are primary sources too. Yet another example of why the "primariness" or "secondariness" of sources is a totally unprincipled distinction, compared to a distinction such as "rawness" or "interpretiveness". COGDEN 20:47, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Cogden, this statement is a blatant abuse of the concept that consensus doesn't trump policy. Consensus interprets policy virtually all the time at the local level. We don't need policy wonks like yourself (or myself or anyone's self) telling every article participant as a matter of policy where precisely the dividing line is between primary and secondary sources, except to say, as the policy page already does, that an original source of a particular concept is a primary source and to let the wikipedia participants work out the rest of it article by article or at least category by category. You yourself have noted that sources can be primary in one context yet secondary in another context. The article editors work the rest out for themselves, just like they work out what NPOV is article by article. ... Kenosis (talk) 22:45, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

In other words, without the ability of parties in an RfC, RfM or RfAr to point to secondary and tertiary sources that support an alleged primary-source interpretation, a highly technical topic will tend to seem like gobbledygook to the non-specialist, but with WP:PSTS there is at least a rational policy-based method within which WP users can point to other sources that back up the particular interpretaion at issue in a particular topic, without necessitating that only users with specialized knowledge will participate in such a content dispute where there is disagreement about it. (If there's no disagreement about it among the experts, there's generally no issue related to any policy at all, including of course WP:PSTS.) Does this solve every possible permutation of how such a debate could go? No, of course not. But IMO it goes a long way towards allowing WP to handle most of the reasonably forseeable editorial conflicts without amounting to excessive policy creep. ... Kenosis (talk) 05:21, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

There is no guarantee that secondary sources are any less technical or specialized than the primary sources. In math, physics, and all scientific fields, secondary sources are more technical than their references (with the exception of tertiary sources). In the legal field, as well, secondary sources are usually just as technical and specialized as the cases they cite, often more so. If we are concerned about specialized sources, why even talk about primariness and secondariness? Why not just propose a rule that all technical and specialized sources are bad (be they primary or secondary), while sources written to a lay audience are good. If we oppose technical sources, let's use the right tool for the job. COGDEN 20:47, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Nonsense. we speak of "primary" and "secondary" because it's a standard way of expressing it in libraries worldwide, and because like the other core editorial policies it's the way the founding director expressed it when setting the policy in motion. The only really significant aspect that WP editors have added is the mention of tertiary sources to account for encyclopedic material and other large compendia of numerous primary and secondary sources, and that's not a major conceptual departure from the original expression of the concept by J.Wales. And as a matter of fact, Wales first put forward the concept in the context of highly technical material in the first place. If certain highly technical material is questioned or contested and the very highly technical editors can't find secondary sources that back up the statements or formulas that those editors assert is in a certain primary source, the directive is that it can't be used in Misplaced Pages except within the limits prescribed by WP:PSTS. ... Kenosis (talk) 22:45, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

In response to Lquitler's question above, I think the problem lies in what is the intent of a Misplaced Pages article on a legal topic? On one hand, many laws have effects on society far beyond the law books. An example of this I have in mind is a perennial crank argument that the Sixteenth Amendment is unconstitutional because of technicalities whether Ohio (one of the states that ratified the amendment) is legally a state. (I find this point entertaining, & hope that a history of this belief would not consitute orignial research & may never appear in Wikiepdia.) On the other hand -- & far more importantly -- is the article's intent to provide legal advice? In that case, sure it's OR but that is trumped by (wait for it) Misplaced Pages does not offer legal advice. -- llywrch (talk) 22:18, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Discussion about image use and WP:NOR

Please come participate in the discussion here. It involves image use policy issues far beyond the template itself. Thanks. ···日本穣 06:51, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

COGDEN's tag

Let's discuss COGDEN's disputed policy section tag that was apparently created specifically for this dispute and has since been rediercted to a disputed policy tag, which is completely inappropriate. I think Mikka said it best about this tag, I'm searching for that quote now, but essentially if a section of Policy is disputed then it should either be removed or left until consensus is reached for it's removal. Dreadstar † 22:18, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I do not care what tag is on this section, but there is a substantial dispute going on about it right now, and it seems honest to mark that dispute. I really don't give a fuck whether we mark it with an old template, a new template, or what, but marking it is appropriate. Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:21, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

It's really quite disruptive to keep on adding a tag. All policies and guidelines have disputed sentences or sections, and this particular section has been here for a long time. Disagreements should be discussed here, but not allowed to destabilize the policy. Cogden, I for one don't even understand a lot of what you're arguing, so please find a way to clarify what you're saying. Also, it would be helpful if you'd provide academic sources for your definitions, as it's not clear whether you're inventing them or taking them from another source. SlimVirgin 22:23, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Slim, his definition is drawn from an appropriate source (at least the most common one he uses). However, it's not even a universal definition within its field of origin. The problem with an "academic" definition is that there are several, varying both between and within fields, and that none of them match exactly with the Misplaced Pages usage (though some could be considered as comprising aspects of our operative definition). Vassyana (talk) 22:33, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Policy changes should be discussed first, not made by one person. — Rlevse • Talk • 22:42, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Dreadstar is correct about the tag template. Originally, it was {{disputedtag}}, but I changed it, creating a new tag, because there were some objections to it. The new tag was a compromise, but I agree now that we really should use the standard tag for these situations. COGDEN 22:57, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

May I suggest finding community consensus for any new or existing "dispute tags" before applying one to an Official Policy page. Personally, I don't believe such tags should be used at all on an official policy page - if the content is there, it's policy by consensus - disputed or not, if it's not there by any prior consensus and is disputed, then it should be removed - not tagged. Dreadstar †

Respondint SlimVirgin, the definitions I'm going by are from primary source and secondary source, and there are many academic citations there. COGDEN 22:57, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Responding to Vassyana, I have not yet seen any reliable source stating that the definitions in the primary source and secondary source articles do not apply in some particular academic field. It's really the same set of definitions everywhere. Some web pages will lump various types of sources together, like diaries and maps, as primary sources, but in an academic article discussing what the terms mean, historiographers, historians, library scientists, and scientists all agree on what the terms mean, and that whether a source is primary or secondary really depends on how you use it. COGDEN 22:57, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Responding to Rlevse, please read WP:BOLD and WP:EP, which I think are very good ideas. We've tried discussing proposals first then editing, but it never went everywhere because there is always some lone dissenter to any idea, no matter how good. For a while, being bold was getting us somewhere, but we've backslid a little. Maybe it's time to go into protection mode again, where we are forced to duke it out here. I'm open to all options. We can also try mediation again, but that didn't work the first time. This dispute has been going on since July, so I don't think anybody can say that the present version of PSTS represents widespread Misplaced Pages consensus. That's just not credible anymore. That's why we need the tag, because otherwise, people will see the tag at the top of the article that claims this represents widespread consensus, when it does not. COGDEN 22:57, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

When changes are as contentious as these have been, WP:BOLD doesn't really apply, Misplaced Pages:Consensus and Misplaced Pages:Resolving disputes do. A few editors here claim that this policy does not have widespread consensus, others maintain that it does and they have shown proof of consensus. A few disputing editors do not counter prior consensus, a new consensus needs to be found for the proposed changes. We've been round and round this issue too. Dreadstar †

Just a bit of history, the tagging issue has been going on since August, and there’s been no resolution to the issues it raises, nor the inclusion of such a tag on a Policy page such as the one Cogden proposes, this has been a hotly contested issue. The changes to OR that are still under dispute have been discussed since August, with some pointed commentary on the changes here, amongst other things about this ongoing dispute. We need to find a way to bring an end to this by either finding consensus for changes or leaving the policy as it was before the edit war started back in August. Dreadstar † 23:08, 4 December 2007 (UTC).

This edit summary by FeloniousMonk states part of the case for the removal of the tag perfectly. The tag has long outlived any justification for it, "you've had your chance to make your case. time for you accept that and move on". I suggest you make a solid proposal and put it up for consensus, if you like, but quit edit warring and tagging the section after all these months of getting nowhere. Dreadstar † 23:18, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

The anti-primary-source faction has had its chance to make its arguments over the last four months as well, and consensus has not yet been reached. But so what? Is there a time limit for establishing Consensus? If we can't establish consensus within four months, does controversy magically go away? This is simply a cop out for avoiding discussion. Reaching consensus is hard work, and there are no shortcuts or time limits. COGDEN 00:33, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

We're talking about your tag Cogden, not Consensus itself. The quest for consensus is ongoing. Dreadstar † 21:27, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Removal of the tag is a statement that consensus has been reached, since the tag at the beginning of the article claims that "It has wide acceptance among editors." The tag is a temporary way to allow non-consensus language to remain in a policy article. Without the tag, the controversial information needs to be deleted pursuant to WP:POLICY and WP:CONS, which require that the article reflect current widespread Misplaced Pages practice and consensus. Which do you prefer, a tag or deletion of the PSTS section? COGDEN 10:36, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Frustrating

I find the current situation here frustrating. I'll acknowledge that no wording that is acceptable to everybody has been found, but there is a real dispute here, and it should have a tag.

I mean, I'd prefer to actually see some compromise on the wording so the tag can be removed. All I really want is something that loosens the wording up, acknowledges that these are general rules, etc. That's part of the problem - this is a policy page, and the applicability of PSTS seems more in line with the applicability of a guideline. (Or we could just spin PSTS off and tag it as guideline. That would even satisfy me.)

But really - can we actually make some progress here? A little? Maybe? And can we agree, in the name of good faith, to say that the section is disputed while we make said progress? Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:21, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Can we not just add: "Like all advice and rules in Misplaced Pages policies, the decision as to whether primary or secondary sources are more suitable on any given occasion is a matter of common sense and good editiorial judgement?" SlimVirgin 22:25, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I would love it if we did. Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:27, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, lemme tinker the wording a bit, since this is a wiki: "Appropriate sourcing is a complicated issue, and these are general rules. The decision as to whether primary or secondary sources are more suitable on a specific occasion is a matter of common sense and good editorial judgment, and should be discussed on individual article talk pages." Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:29, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

That's fine with me. SlimVirgin 22:30, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

The most destructive thing to consensus on this long-discussed section is an all-or-nothing attitude from people on both sides. (To simplify, generally meaning those who want to retain the section and those who wish to dismantle, or severely simplify, it.) This is not a problem exclusive to this policy. A number of rules and process discussions are derailed by such idiocy. So long as there is a solid group of entrenched people unwilling to seek consensus and compromise, and people are unwilling to ignore the obstructionists, no solution is going to be had. Vassyana (talk) 22:41, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

OK - what about the wording I propose above that SV likes? Any problems with adding it to the page? Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:51, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

It's good, but I see it as a Band-Aid over a gushing wound. Take a look at my proposal in the next section, which is a minimal change, yet at least from my perspective would move us 85% of the way toward reflecting actual Misplaced Pages consensus in real articles, be it in physics, math, philosophy, fiction, or whatever other kind of article. I don't see any loopholes here. COGDEN 23:07, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I have no problem with such a caveat, at all. It would be a good addition. My comment was more towards echoing sympathy with your frustration. Imagine how those of who've been here for months discussing PSTS feel! Vassyana (talk) 23:23, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I've added it. If there are no objections, I'd also like to remove the two sentences above it, which just repeat what's said elsewhere: "All sources should be used in a way that does not give rise to new analyses, syntheses or original conclusions that are not verifiable. Where interpretive claims, analysis, or synthetic claims are included in Misplaced Pages articles, use appropriate sources rather than original analysis by Misplaced Pages editors." SlimVirgin 23:30, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

The first sentence is useful in making it clear that these requirements apply to secondary or tertiary sources as well as primary sources, to avoid the sort of tendentious misunderstandings so eloquently set out by cogden. The second sentence is well covered by the secondary source statement and by the new addition, and can be deleted imo. .. dave souza, talk 00:33, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Proposal: just change the terms primary-->raw and secondary-->interpretiveraw_and_secondary-->interpretive-2007-12-04T23:04:00.000Z">

Template:RFCpolicy

After a bit of experimentation, here is a proposal that I could almost live with, and it's really a minimal one, but unfortunately it was reverted as kind of a knee-jerk reaction. Maybe that's part my fault for being to bold, but why would this not move us at least 85% of the way toward consensus?:

• A raw source contains raw facts but no interpretation of those facts. Raw sources that have been published by a reliable source may be used in Misplaced Pages, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. For that reason, anyone—without specialist knowledge—who reads the raw source should be able to verify that the Misplaced Pages passage agrees with the raw source. Any interpretation of raw source material requires another reliable source for that interpretation. To the extent that an article or particular part of an article relies on a raw source, that part of the article should:

• only make descriptive claims about the information found in the raw source, the accuracy and applicability of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and
• make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims about the information found in the raw source, unless such claims are verifiable from another source.

Examples of raw sources include archeological artifacts; photographs; historical documents such as diaries, census results, video or transcripts of surveillance, public hearings, trials, or interviews; tabulated results of surveys or questionnaires; written or recorded notes of laboratory and field research, experiments or observations, published experimental results by the person(s) actually involved in the research; original philosophical works, religious scripture, administrative documents, and artistic and fictional works such as poems, scripts, screenplays, novels, motion pictures, videos, and television programs.

• An interpretive source draws on raw sources to make generalizations or interpretive, analytical, or synthetic claims. Where interpretive claims, analysis, or synthetic claims about raw sources are included in Misplaced Pages articles, use interpretive sources rather than original analysis by Misplaced Pages editors.

• A tertiary source is a publication such as an encyclopedia or other compendium that sums up other sources. Many introductory textbooks may also be considered tertiary to the extent they sum up widely accepted results of large amounts of raw and interpretive sources. Tertiary sources can be useful in avoiding original research in topics where there exist very large amounts of raw and/or interpretive sources.

All sources should be used in a way that does not give rise to new analyses, syntheses or original conclusions that are not verifiable. Where interpretive claims, analysis, or synthetic claims are included in Misplaced Pages articles, use appropriate sources rather than original analysis by Misplaced Pages editors.

Frankly, I'd get rid of the "tertiary" section, but I want to make this the most minimal change possible at this point. COGDEN 23:04, 4 December 2007 (UTC)raw_and_secondary-->interpretive"> raw_and_secondary-->interpretive">

I agree with loosing the tertiary section. It may be truth, but there is no need for it in a policy document. It belongs in Misplaced Pages. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:13, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

The problem with this is that you're substituting your own terms (raw and interpretive sources) for terms in common use (primary and secondary sources), and they're not equivalent anyway. A primary source can include interpretive material, for example. SlimVirgin 23:24, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

(ec)This only serves to confound and mar the issue further. "Raw" sources are but a subsection of primary sources. For example, the Bible is not a raw source of facts, but it's certainly a primary source. I appreciate the good faith attempt to move forward. However, I don't think using language that either drastically narrows the scope of the definition or is contradictory to the operative definition is going to work. Vassyana (talk) 23:32, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Raw sources are a subset of primary sources as I understand primary sources. But it seems that the rationale behind this language, back when it was written was directed toward preventing use of raw sources. What the policy really is trying to get at is the use of sources that do not contain within them published interpretive material. The original authors apparently didn't see any difference between raw and primary sources, and apparently thought that anything interpretive was a secondary source. So this is not really a departure from that original intent.

I don't see any philosophical need for us to stick with the terms "primary" and "secondary". The importance is the policy, not the terms we use. Go back and pretent that the PSTS section never existed, and you had never heard of the terms primary source and secondary source. How would you write the policy in your own words? COGDEN 23:07, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Is there any real support or viable alernatives to change the terminology from “Primary, Secondary and Tertiary”? This has long been discussed, and I think we should try to lock it down now. Personally, I think we should keep the current terms. Dreadstar † 18:20, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

There's clearly no consensus for primary and secondary, but I think we can build consensus aroung other terms such as raw and interpretive. As I see it, nearly everybody opposing the primary-secondary language is receptive to some of the ideas in the PSTS section, but the main problem is that primary source and secondary source are ill-defined in such a way that it creates a whole host of problems. The terms carry too much baggage. If we want the policy to reflect consensus, which I think most of us do, I'm not sure we can get there with the terms primary source and secondary source. It seems like the simplest replacement terms are "raw" and "interpretive". Does anybody actually disagree substantively with the proposal as written above? Or at least not disagree. That could be a basis for consensus, and we could go from there. COGDEN 23:07, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Please build that consensus for the actual terms quickly, this has been an ongoing issue for months and is continuing to drag things down. The current terms (Primary/Secondary/Tertiary) have clear and undeniable prior consensus, so a new consensus will need to be formed to replace them. Are there any other viable alternatives besides "raw" and "interpretive" (which I see have already been opposed above..an opposition which I join, as I prefer the original terms to any I've seen thus far). Let's lay them all out on the table.

The P/S/T language has arguable prior consensus, but very low participation. "In the case of policy pages a higher standard of participation and consensus is expected." (WP:CONS). Whether or not there ever was consensus, however, is irrelevant because there is no consensus now, and policy pages must reflect current consensus (WP:POLICY).

If the reason you oppose "raw" and "interpretive" is because you prefer the present language, that is not a valid objection. You have to independently oppose "raw" and "interpretive" in their own merits, and actually discuss them, rather than just say "they're different from my own preference, so no deal". COGDEN 20:55, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

As for the proposal above, I prefer how Vassyana has laid out the terms. Dreadstar † 23:16, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think we need defined terms at all. And there is no need for source typing, because how sources are written by their authors is not as important as how they are used by WP editors. So we should discuss how to use sources in descriptive terms using plain language. See my example in the section below. Dhaluza (talk) 11:35, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I really like this idea. I think that by scrapping terms and definitions that were developed for a different purpose we're really dealing with our "Idol of the Marketplace" problem (this also parallels some ideas that we raised had in August).. We really have to think here in terms of developing an "encyclopedic method", of employing definitions that are most useful to our context.--Pharos (talk) 07:07, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Why would we want to substitute established terms for neologisms? --bainer (talk) 07:55, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

which "established terms" would those be? :) -- Fullstop (talk) 08:07, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Because we are dealing with novel concepts and processes that are quite different from those involved in the historical method (for which the original concepts were developed). We have never really used these terms under their proper definitions, anyway, because our reasons for distinguishing three classes of sources comes from attempting to solve a rather different problem.--Pharos (talk) 04:48, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Also, we might want to replace "tertiary source" with something like "summarizing source" while we're at it.--Pharos (talk) 05:21, 8 December 2007 (UTC)raw_and_secondary-->interpretive"> raw_and_secondary-->interpretive">

I've been ignoring this thread, in the hope it would just go away, but so far, that hasn't happened. I object to the term "raw". One important meaning of raw information is information just as it appears in whatever medium it first appears. Very often, such information is processed in very minimal ways, such as editing out data from sensors that are obviously defective, removing chaff from punch-card ballots, and the like. The result of such minimal processing isn't raw any more, but it isn't interpreted either. I think this meaning of "raw" would introduce a great deal of worthess argument, so the word should be avoided. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 05:35, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Every word in the English language is going to have some degree of ambiguity. The point is that "primary source" is highly ambiguous, and the academic definition is quite likely to be confused with our specialized usage on Misplaced Pages, because they're similar in broad strokes, and topics in the Humanities can get fuzzy anyway. The use of "raw" under the definition of "experimental data to which computerized post-processing has not yet been applied" is not even a Humanities concept, and is very unlikely to cause serious confusion (and if it ever did, that confusion could be very easily corrected). And the term is actually "raw source", which as a clear neologism has a very specific definition, and is indeed something other than the mere adjective "raw".--Pharos (talk) 05:57, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not limited to articles about the humanities. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 06:07, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Of course not. But the writing of Misplaced Pages (the collating of sources etc.) is purely a Humanities process, no matter what the article subject is.--Pharos (talk) 06:10, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Nonsense. And even writing Misplaced Pages articles is a humanities process, editors of articles on, for example, science, engineering, or computers will often have backgrounds in those fields, and will tend to interpret words in policies in light of their backgrounds. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 06:15, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I think that people, no matter what their background is, will tend to read the wording of the policy in the context in which it is presented, i.e. basically a non-scientific context. That said, I would support adding a clarification that the narrow "experimental data to which computerized post-processing has not yet been applied" meaning of "raw" is not intended. It will be a lot easier IMO to explain away this slight ambiguity (because it is more clear-cut), than to explain away the other one, which has only lead to reams of confused talk page discussions.--Pharos (talk) 06:32, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Gerry Ashton, maybe there's another term to use instead of raw, like uninterpreted. That would leave no gaps: either a source or part of a source is interpreted or uninterpreted. Much better than primary vs. secondary, which are not mutually exclusive, and in fact every significant secondary source is also primary, and most primary sources are also secondary. COGDEN 10:43, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I am not in favour of this proposed change. I have nothing to add to the arguments already presented, but I do not want anyone to introduce the change by arguing that silence means there is consensus for the change. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 10:58, 10 December 2007 (UTC)raw_and_secondary-->interpretive"> raw_and_secondary-->interpretive">

Just so we know, which camp are you in, (1) the "raw is not inclusive enough" camp, (2) the "we should use established terms like primary source and secondary source because making up terminology for Misplaced Pages purposes is a bad thing" camp, or (3) the "I prefer another version to this one, but don't really have any actual arguments against this version" camp? Knowing this would be helpful in determining where the actual consensus lies, if there is one. COGDEN 11:28, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

You proposed a change at the start of this section I am not in favour of that change and I am bored with the interminable arguments you are advancing for what seems to me to be no discernible improvement to the policy. I would be much happier using the time I spend reading this page editing and discussing improvements to articles, but I do not want to turn round and find that the legs have been kicked out from under this policy while I was looking elsewhere. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 13:22, 10 December 2007 (UTC)raw_and_secondary-->interpretive"> raw_and_secondary-->interpretive">

For clarity

Is it correct that this is basically about the definition of the word "Primary source"?

--Kim Bruning (talk) 23:22, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I wish it were that simple. :-P Vassyana (talk) 23:33, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I'd recommend reviewing the following to get a better idea of the long-running discussion here:

• Wikipedia_talk:No_original_research/archive26#Alternative_proposals:_straw_poll.
• Wikipedia_talk:No_original_research/archive25#Goals
• Wikipedia_talk:No_original_research/archive24#Attempt_to_address_the_new_opposition
• Wikipedia_talk:No_original_research/archive24#Just_to_be_clear:-definition_of_primary_and_secondary_sources
• Wikipedia_talk:No_original_research/archive23#Back_to_the_question_of_what_policy_should_be
• Wikipedia_talk:No_original_research/archive23#Refocusing_on_the_source_discussion
• Wikipedia_talk:No_original_research/archive23#Why_we_DO_need_some_sort_of_a_statement_on_primary_sources_usage
• Wikipedia_talk:No_original_research/archive22#Before_we_unprotect_the_page
• Wikipedia_talk:No_original_research/archive22#Attention_newcomers_to_this_article

Vassyana (talk) 00:17, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

It's very complex, like Vassyana said, but biggest bullet-points as I see them are:

• The definition of primary source and secondary source (made up or standard academic);
• Whether those terms should be used in policy, or whether they are too high-falutin' and ambiguous;
• When, if ever, primary/raw/otherwise-bad sources should be prohibited/discouraged and when if ever, they should be mandatory/encouraged;
• Whether any of this belongs in No original research at all, or whether this is a Verifiability issue; and
• Whether the section needs to reflect current Consensus or whether it can remain unchanged by virtue of inertia based on apparent past consensus.

COGDEN 23:23, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

The issue of inertia and consensus for Policy pages was discussed in this section, which contains some compelling comments on this subject. I think Policy pages need to have strong Consensus to change prior consensus, and that policy pages need inertia to avoid chaos from constant changes becase an editor or small group of editors don't believe in the prior consensus - yet do not have consensus for their proposals, but they believe they can change or remove the material they dispute anyway. Dreadstar † 23:35, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

That's what a lot of people think, but that's not actually true, based on what the policy articles say. There is no "intertia" that keeps a non-consensus policy section active even though consensus in favor of that section is demonstrably lost. According to WP:POLICY, "Misplaced Pages polices may change as consensus changes, but policy and guideline pages must reflect the present consensus and practice." According to WP:CONS, "A small group of editors can reach a consensual decision, but when the article gains wider attention, others may then disagree. The original group should not block further change on grounds that they already have made a decision." Moreover, "In the case of policy pages a higher standard of participation and consensus is expected."

So really, the choice here is not between keeping PSTS vs. replacing PSTS, but between deleting PSTS and replacing PSTS. Either way, we have to end up with something with strong consensus. If that means "no consensus policy", that's what we'll have to accept, according to present policy. COGDEN 00:43, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Again, you are mistaken. There is no present consensus for changes, so the prior consensus is what we go by. There is no reason to delete PSTS, there is strong support for that section now, all we're doing is attempting to rewrite it for clarity. The original group is not blocking your changes, the lack of consensus for your changes is. Accept that and move on. I'm not going to go round with you again, or repeat again the need for inertia in Policy articles, this is the same tune you've been playing for months on end. Move on and find consensus for your proposals. Dreadstar † 01:04, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

That is a novel concept of Consensus on WP. If that were true, consensus could be easily usurped by simply jealously defending an inaccurate transcription of actual consensus. By refusing to consent to change, all progress could then be indefinitely blocked. That is why the Consensus policy wisely allows consensus to change, and that policy must reflect current consensus, not a perception of past consensus. Naturally policy should not change on a whim, but it does change over time, and must be allowed to continue to change over time. Dhaluza (talk) 02:13, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

No one is refusing consent to change. Vassyana's proposal is making clear progress. What is being strongly disputed by many editors are the extreme changes that have been proposed by Cogden, who apparently would like to delete PSTS in its entirety because it's 'unnecessary', something I cannot agree with. That's the only novelty here, Dhaluza - the deletion or dilution of long-standing policy without having a consensus for such actions to be taken. What I have described is how Misplaced Pages:Consensus works. And no, “simply jealously defending an inaccurate transcription of actual consensus" is not what is happening here, nor is it ever going to trump a new consensus, that's a total distortion of what has been said about prior consensus. We cannot say that because a few editors disagree with content that was put into place with consensus that the consensus and the content it relates to are no longer valid - that would lead to chaos and ever changing Policy, if we were even able to establish a stable policy under those conditions. Dreadstar † 16:23, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

You are taking my hypothetical comments literally. I was not accusing anyone of anything, just pointing out that your argument that there must be consensus for change is wrong. There must be consensus, period. Dhaluza (talk) 13:51, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

No, my statement is correct. There must consensus for a change to content that has been long-standing policy by consensus. You must find consensus for your changes, period. I also do not see the lack of current consensus for it to remain - even though I believe that is backwards. We have a few editors disputing it, that's all. In any case, this is the same sorry discussion about consensus that we've been going around with for months. Find new consensus for your changes, period. Dreadstar † 21:04, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

If the philosophy you are stating here is actually Misplaced Pages practice and consensus, you should take this up with WP:POLICY and WP:CONS, which contradict you. Of course, according to your policy, you'd have to build an independent consensus to change WP:POLICY and WP:CONS, which you aren't going to get. Do you see the paradox of your position? And do you see why it is unworkable? COGDEN 10:50, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Dreadstar is wrong that I think PSTS should be deleted because it is "unnecessary". First, I don't think it should be deleted, just made to conform with present Misplaced Pages practice. But if editors block such current-practice-conforming changes, the only option is to delete the section. No other possibility will leave the policy page in a state of conformance with WP:POLICY and WP:CONS.

Second, it's not because it is unnecessary, it's because the present PSTS language does not conform to actual, widespread Misplaced Pages practice, and thus is in violation of WP:POLICY. It's some person's good faith effort to distinguish between "raw" and "interpretive" sources, which might reflect actual Misplaced Pages practice; however, the section has morphed into a philosophical treatise against primary sources, which it was never intended to be. It is an attempt to get people to stop using primary sources--to change widespread practice--something which policy pages cannot do. You change widespread Misplaced Pages practice first, then you write the policy. COGDEN 21:07, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

So you're just complaining about this sentence in the policy: "Primary sources that have been published by a reliable source may be used in Misplaced Pages, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them." Is that right?  —SMALLJIM  21:44, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Apparently, that's it in a nutshell, Smalljim... Dreadstar † 21:04, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Dreadstar, you have been sort of out of the loop for a while, and probably are not fully aware of all the issues we've been discussing for the last four months. There are several issues with the current language, the most significant problems being in the following phrases:

• "anyone—without specialist knowledge—who reads the primary source should be able to verify that the Misplaced Pages passage agrees with the primary source";
• "the accuracy and applicability of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge";
• "make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims about the information found in the primary source, unless such claims are verifiable from another source"; and
• The current "examples" of "primary" sources; and
• "Where interpretive claims, analysis, or synthetic claims about primary sources are included in Misplaced Pages articles, use secondary sources rather than original analysis by Misplaced Pages editors"

COGDEN 11:21, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I disagree, I think policy pages can change widespread practice. Also, just because something is being done in a widespread manner, does not mean that the practice should become policy. Policy should dictate practice, not the other way around. Say for instance it becomes widespread practice to add libelous material to Biographies of living persons, should the policy change to reflect that new practice? No way. I know it's an extreme example, and one that has special circumstances, but I believe it makes the point - practice should follow policy, not the other way around. Practice can guide policy, but it must not dictate policy so that policy merely becomes a tool of the majority or the most vocal. There are plenty of times when Policy must rise above practice and dictate the proper path to take.

Additionally, where is the widespread practice that violates the limitations on the use of Primary sources that makes the PSTS so far off the mark? Where is all this going on about having Misplaced Pages articles completely rely on Primary sources with only limited or no use of Secondary sources? How is the current wording so bad that it need to be removed or seriously throttled back? I've quoted directly from policy above, and I don't see what your argument really is. And just because something is in widespread use doens't make it the right use. Policy should still dictate the right way to do things, not become muddled beause some or many aren't following policy. Having policy follow practice is just classic tail wagging the dog. There has to be a well thought-out mixture of sensible Policy dictating practice, and while there should be policy that is based on good practices, policy should never just blindly follow widespread practice.

And Cogden, I was merely quoting your own words, where you stated, "Personally, if I had my way, I'd just blank the section. It doesn't reflect consensus, and is unnecessary. It looks like you were talking about the PSTS section, is that not the case? Dreadstar † 21:04, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Dreadstar, I'd take a look at WP:POLICY, which apparently you disagree with. WP:POLICY states that

"The purpose of a written policy or guideline is to record clearly what has evolved as communal consensus in actual practice, rather than to lead editors prescriptively toward a given result. Misplaced Pages polices may change as consensus changes, but policy and guideline pages must reflect the present consensus and practice."

Are you arguing that the WP:POLICY article should be changed? If so, I'd challenge that policy. Unfortunately, though, your position would make that difficult, since you apparently believe, contrary to WP:CONS, that there is required a "consensus to change policy", rather than "consensus to the policy, period". Unless you plan to challenge the rule, I would invite you to join many of us in enforcing WP:POLICY, and ensuring that the WP:NOR page reflects current, actual practice, without trying to lead editors. COGDEN 11:21, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

As to your question about "where is the widespread practice that violates the limitations on the use of Primary sources that makes the PSTS so far off the mark?", here are some of the answers we've been discussing during the last four months:

• Highly technical citations in math, science, and philosophy articles cannot be—and never have been required to be— "easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialized knowledge";
• Citations to primary sources are not, and never have been, rare or disfavored, but have been highly encouraged and honored with featured status;
• Editors do not routinely think about the primariness or secondariness of sources, except perhaps to favor primary sources like some of the more historically-trained editors have been taught in school, which is a good practice and makes better articles more useful to readers and more likely to be featured;
• Works of fiction are cited and treated in a manner inconsistent with PSTS.
• The present PSTS language creates verifiability requirements beyond and inconsistent with those of WP:V, which most editors primarily rely on to judge the verifiability of sources.

COGDEN 11:21, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Revisiting a proposal

User:Vassyana/NOR 002 was suggested and repeatedly advertised on RfC and the village pump. It was one of the least controversial and most supported (including people on "both sides) of the various serious proposals to change PSTS. This suggests it may be worth revisiting it, even if to understand what worked "better" about it so we can create another draft. I'd like to review the comments made about it and see if we can adjust it sufficiently for use. Let's see what we can do to address any concerns, so we can move forward.

Support (some supporters included more than one):

• There was support based on the draft being a reasonable clarification.
• There was support based on the proposal better reflecting practice.
• There was support based on the draft being a reasonable compromise.
• There was support based on the proposal being a step in the correct direction.

Neutral:

• One person changed from opposition to neutrality after their concerns were addressed.

Opposition:

• There was opposition based on a strong opposition to PSTS, without feedback on the draft.
• There was opposition based on the presence of the source-typing caveat and the conflation of secondary and tertiary sources.
• One person opposed without explanation or feedback on the proposal.
• One person stated the status quo is clearer, without further explanation or feedback.
• One person expressed the draft is wordy and hard to follow, and objected to a requirement for explicit in-text attribution of primary sources.

Obviously, some positions cannot be accommodated due to a lack of feedback and/or explanation. However, I am going to endeavor to revise the draft accordingly to the reasonable opposition. The conflation of secondary and tertiary was founded in a concern that some summary sources (like textbooks) are exceptional sources and that this should be noted. The draft includes such language. There was less opposition to the caveat as a footnote, so I've moved it to such a format. I've moved a few other side comments and examples to footnotes as well, to help shorten/clarify the text. I've removed a chunk of text that may be better suited to another part of the policy. I've revised some of the language for clarity. (Additional comment) I also moved secondary before primary, because some concern was voiced about secondary sources being mentioned before their definition.

Regarding the requirement for explicit in-text attribution, I'm unsure of what other compromise I can make for this issue. Some expressed deep concern with primary sources being used in such a way at all, others argue that perfectly usable primary sources make such claims. The latter was accommodated with clear language permitting the use of such claims, but former accommodated with a requirement for blatant in-text attribution. If someone has a better compromise between the two extremes, it would be welcomed.

Please review the altered proposal. Let me know what you think. Vassyana (talk) 01:00, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Vassyana. The lead of the section could benefit from better grammar and simpler wording, but overall I see this as a good summary that may be acceptable to all involved. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:05, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Revised/simplified the lede language. Anything else that can be tweaked? Anything particularly flawed or lacking about it? Any additional concerns from the long long discussion here that you think could be accommodated? Vassyana (talk) 11:46, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any significant problems. — Carl (CBM · talk) 13:31, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

To my mind, everything after (2) is still an overly strong version of the advice. Not wrong, as such, but overly restrictive, and without enough awareness that the rules do not apply in many circumstances. The wording SV proposed above about good judgment and the rewording of your suggestion below both open the door to the possibility of grey area in a way that the tail end of this doesn't.

That said, I love everything before (2), particularly the abandonment of the secondary/tertiary distinction. Phil Sandifer (talk) 14:50, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I'll agree it is one of the more restrictive parts of the proposal, largely because it adheres closely to the current policy. I included language about explicit attribution for analytic et al claims from primary sources and about primary sources in secondary sources, because everyone can agree that both practices (as such) are OK. I will continue to think about how that portion can be improved and revised to provide an acceptable compromise for the policy editors and better reflect practice. However, I think any significant departure from that model/advice is really another step in and of itself (much like a change of terminology would be). Thanks for the feedback! Vassyana (talk) 17:19, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think we need a significant departure from that model... I think, actually, a big part of it is that that portion is best considered as advice and a guideline, unlike the rest of NOR - it's a small bit of not-quite-policy in a policy document. And thus some hedging to reflect that is in order. Phil Sandifer (talk) 18:08, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm pondering this and if I think of a good solution, I'll share *chuckle*. If you have any suggestions about how to alter the wording, they would be welcome. Vassyana (talk) 03:26, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

This is an excellent proposal, Vassyana. I think it does a very good job of addressing a lot of the concerns expressed about the current version and it keeps the core of the policy intact. I like it. Dreadstar † 17:22, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I like it too, particularly the way you have changed the emphasis of the section from the sources themselves to the purpose of the section, thereby better integrating it into the policy. I assume it would be under a heading of "Types of sources" or similar? A minor point, but perhaps the first sentence could be simplified to something like "To help identify and avoid original research, this section broadly defines primary and secondary sources." I found the reference to a tool unnecessary and slightly confusing: I couldn't tell if it is the section or the collective primary and secondary sources that is meant to be the tool.

Sorry for popping up here suddenly, by the way. You haven't seen me, but I've been working my way through this page and trying to follow its convoluted discussions for a couple of weeks. (Only a couple of weeks!) This is the first time I've felt able to contribute something. Hope I'm not making a total ass of myself!  —SMALLJIM  21:54, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

No apologies needed. I took your helpful suggestion for rewording. Are there are problematic phrasings? Any notable flaws (in general) in the draft? Vassyana (talk) 03:26, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

• Here are my comments on the proposal:

1. It's better than what we have now, and I support any change that moves in the right direction, with the proviso that it is not the final resting place.
2. Why keep the terms primary and secondary if we are now entirely divorced from the academic terms primary source and secondary source and from the concepts of "primariness" or "secondariness"? Why not combine my proposal with yours and use the terms raw and interpretive, and then just define them how we want? In fact, I notice you use the term "raw" in the definition of primary source. The beauty of using the term "raw source" is you can define it however you want, and don't have to worry about anomalies like peer-reviewed articles being secondary sources. They'll just be "interpretive sources", which makes perfect sense.
3. You are keeping the "reasonable, educated person" standard of super-verifiability for "primary" sources. I can see the benefit of an extra layer of verifiability for "raw" sources, but not in "interpretive" sources that are also primary sources, such as mathematical and philosophical works. We don't want editors interpreting raw data, but we do want them relying on technical primary sources like Principia Mathematica, Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica, and Of Grammatology.
4. The requirement for finding an explicit reference in the primary source for any interpretive statement contradicts WP:V, which does not require citation to any source when you make claims that nobody would dispute, such as "The book has 100 pages". You won't find that statement explicitly stated in the work, but so what? If you replaced "primary" with "raw", you would not even need this requirement because, by definition, raw sources have no interpretations to which you can cite, explicitly or otherwise.

COGDEN 02:05, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I really think tackling terminology would be a whole proposal unto itself. I may not necessarily agree with your word choice, but you know I support a change in terms nonetheless. (My desire for different terms is due to the myriad definitions of PSTS and the resulting complications due to the law of primacy.) I think the wording will take a lot of time and effort to address, but it would be for the best in the end. After we get through this round of proposals, I'd be glad to work with you to try and work out a proposal for using different terminology.

I think narrowing the scope to purely "raw" sources is a significant change in and of itself. As such, it's another thing that should be addressed separately. I also believe it would remove many sources (from the "primary" category) that are a cause of concern in relation to NOR (such as historical and religious texts).

Point taken. I have added a footnote directing the reader to WP:V#Burden of evidence.

Thanks for the support and feedback. Are there other flaws in the draft that can be addressed? Is any of the wording problematic? Vassyana (talk) 03:26, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think you and I are that far apart, if we can use the right terminology. I also don't think changing the definition to "raw" (or some other similar term) is much of a change at all. I think that is exactly what the original author of this language intended, as evidenced by some of the early definitions of "primary source". The idea was that "primary" sources were those sources (or parts of sources) that had no analysis or interpretation. It was to prevent people from going to a chemistry article and interpreting the raw data, but ignoring the original author's interpretation of that data and instead inserting their own crackpot theory about the data. This is was Jimbo was concerned about, as well. This is not really a change, just a return to fundamentals. COGDEN 21:15, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I also believe we're not that far apart. However, I must note that Jimbo did agree ("completely") that (at least in historical topics) even accurate citation of primary sources can produce a novel synthesis and that Misplaced Pages is ill-equipped to review such usage. Vassyana (talk) 06:25, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Jimbo was talking about taking the data from the primary sources to support a novel crackpot theory. He never opposed the use of primary sources; in fact, he once spoke with approval in the publication of interpretative scientific theories in "traditional primary sources", followed by direct citation in Misplaced Pages. It was never the primariness of the source that was the problem—it was the fact that the theories were being conjured up by the editor, independently of how the original primary source scientist interpreted the data. COGDEN 11:45, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Any further comments on this revised draft? Not to jinx things, but I'm quite surprised at the relative silence. Vassyana (talk) 06:25, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

As has been stated several months ago during other discussions on this subject, when asked how the 'controversial' section was added, the point was made that silence was implicit acceptance, so the 5 or 6 involved in it (adding the controversial part) at that time argue that consensus was reached. I guess that same can easily be assumed here, with far more than 5 or 6 people involved. wbfergus 11:09, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I see no problem with making the edit, although I fear that no matter what we do, you will likely find that people here are very willing to violate WP:OWN and WP:CONS ("The original group should not block further change on grounds that they already have made a decision"). WP:CONS states that "In essence silence implies consent if there is adequate exposure to the community. In the case of policy pages a higher standard of participation and consensus is expected." Your draft does not have much participation, and not yet consensus, but it's a move in that direction, and should not be reverted in a knee-jerk manner. Your draft probably has better consensus than the language there now, and I think anyone that reverts it to the present language should have a damn good reason. COGDEN 11:45, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, there's been a couple RfCs, multiple listings on the village pump, lots of opinions voiced, etc. I honestly think the revised draft accommodates the concerns voiced on the last version, as best as I know how. Of course, I'm open to revision suggestions. :) There's a note about using summary (essentially tertiary) sources to accommodate the only clear concern about conflating secondary and tertiary. I moved the caveat to footnote, per the clearest/strongest objector to that language. I've reordered it, moved some text to footnotes and simplified the main text, to help address the criticisms regarding complexity and clarity. There's still some sticky points to work through, but progress is progress. At the least, it seems like the closest thing to a consensus compromise we've been able to reach in several months of discussion. I'll make the change and see what happens. Vassyana (talk) 12:55, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, that experiment lasted less than ten minutes. It was reverted by someone who hasn't bothered to comment during any of the times that any version of this draft was posted for discussion. I'm not going to kneejerk revert, but I would like to make it very clear that I think it is utter bullshit that is was reverted by someone who cannot not be bothered to comment during the multiple copious opportunities to voice opposition. Unless the opposition is voiced and well-reasoned, I will restore the compromise draft tomorrow. Vassyana (talk) 13:24, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good to me and I totally support you and your position, along with agreeing entirely with your statements. wbfergus 13:34, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

It was reverted again by another person who has not commented on this draft. They commented on the last proposal, and some of their concerns are among those addressed. However, they have declined to make a substantive objection to this version and in the last discussion failed to substantiate their objections. As such, I've undone their invalid reversion. Vassyana (talk) 16:45, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I object to the proposal because it is not as clear as the present version about when it is referring to material from an outside source, and when it is referring to material in a Misplaced Pages article. I also strongly object to the term third party. That term means, for example, that the publications of the National Institute of Standards and Technology the Bell Labs Technical Journal are usually not secondary sources, because the organizations often do not have a third-party relationship to the topic of the article. That's just wrong. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 17:34, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea at all how you are drawing the first conclusion. It pretty clear talks about article claims and sources. Could you point out a few examples? The term "third party" is common terminology in policy. However, would "independent" be a better synonym? Vassyana (talk) 18:29, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

No, "independent" is only slightly better than "third party". A source that draws on primary sources is a secondary source, whether it's independent or not. I'll address the question about which material is being referred to in a separate post. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 18:47, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

After re-reading, I see that I was thinking of a different version of the policy that was vague about whether it was discussing Misplaced Pages articles or outside sources. However, I did find one passage that I don't understand: "Of course, primary sources may be used freely as they are used in reliable publications. In that instance, an editor would be relying on a reliable secondary reference to present, analyze and/or interpret a primary source." --Gerry Ashton (talk) 18:58, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Removed "third party".

For the confusing passage, I've tried clarifying the language. Thoughts? Vassyana (talk) 19:46, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

That's an improvement. At this time, I'm not expressing a preference for either the present policy or Vassyana's proposal. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 19:55, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Good deal. Thanks for the feedback. If you note anything else "off" about it, please let me know. Vassyana (talk) 19:58, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The only voiced opposition since the revert has been addressed, as noted above. As such, I am replacing the section again, as I noted above. Vassyana (talk) 12:31, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Not to denigrate your changes, but I feel I must point out that the link to secondary sources in WP:N's "This page in a nutshell" is now broken, as well as another link to it lower down that page. I guess that's not going to be the only page. I'm not sure if this is a problem, or if it's something that gets fixed if the change sticks.  —SMALLJIM  14:37, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I've added a span id to ensure that link works. If the change sticks, the links can be corrected on the Misplaced Pages: space pages. Thanks for pointing that out. Vassyana (talk) 15:06, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that quick fix! —SMALLJIM 

I'm really sorry to query this now - I know I should have done so much earlier, but I was distracted. I'm thinking of the average editor coming here and reading this:

• "Article claims that rely on a primary source should..."

What are article claims - is it a techical term? Wouldn't statements in articles be clearer?

• "...(1) only report the content of the source, the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, ..." (my italics)

To me this sounds like it's the accuracy of the source's content that we're saying should be verifiable, but it should be the accuracy of what the article states, I think.

• "...and (2) make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims unless explicitly attributed in-text to the source." (my italics)

That end part isn't perhaps as clear as it might be. I think you've pushed together two separate rules: 1. don't make those sort of claims unless the source does, and 2. if the source does, then explicitly attribute. Is that right? A lot of thought in a few words! I'd prefer to use a few more words for clarity.

Please do tell me if I'm not making sense.  —SMALLJIM  16:21, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I've tried addressing the first two by revising the language used. The third was an admittedly clumsy compromise and I've replaced it with the language used in the existing version. Vassyana (talk) 16:39, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Using sources

I propose adding the following to a section called "Using sources" immediately below the "Reliable sources" section:

Information in an article must be verifiable in the references cited. Article statements should not rely on unclear or inconsistent passages, nor on passing comments, even if the source is especially reliable. Passages open to interpretation should be precisely cited or avoided. Drawing conclusions not evident in the reference is original research regardless of the type of source. It is important that references are cited in context and on topic.

I don't think any of this is controversial and I believe it reflects what most people have voiced about sources and original research. Of course, I could be wrong, so let us know what you think. :o) Vassyana (talk) 01:04, 5 December 2007 (UTC)Text struck. See below. -- Text revised based on Fullstop's feedback. -- Struck text removed. -- Overt --> evident. -- Minor wording change

Alternate, with revised version of struck text (11:37, 5 December 2007 (UTC)). Italics are to note the additional text, nor for "live" use:

Information in an article must be verifiable in the references cited. Article statements should not rely on unclear or inconsistent passages, nor on passing comments, even if the source is especially reliable. Passages open to interpretation should be precisely cited or avoided. Drawing conclusions not evident in the reference is original research regardless of the type of source. When possible, cite only passages from the central topic of the source. A summary of extensive discussion should reflect the conclusions of the source's author(s). It is important that references are cited in context and on topic.

I've revised the text based upon Fullstop's feedback and looking towards a bit more simplification. I have also removed the struck text and provided an alternate reading with revised versions of the struck text. How are the revisions looking? Which version is preferable (if either)? Vassyana (talk) 11:44, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

I think this is an accurate statement of current practice and good guidance for editors not familiar with choosing the best sources to support their claims. Something like this would be a positive addition to the policy. — Carl (CBM · talk) 02:59, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Carl, would you still support the shortened version? Vassyana (talk) 03:07, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Shorter policies are more likely to be read. The proposed passage is a mixture of NOR policy and advise about what portion of a source is most reliable, which probably belongs in WP:RS. The advice that does not pertain to NOR makes the article longer. It also makes the definition of NOR fuzzier (as if it isn't bad enough already); it tends to make NOR a synonym for sloppy writing. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 03:01, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I've crossed-out the text that could be seen as more general advice. The remainder directly relates to original research. Vassyana (talk) 03:07, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Without the that sentence, I think this is a valuable addition and consistent with current understanding and practice. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:20, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

In the end, the OR policy is intertwined with the verifiability and reliable sources policies, so some similarity is unavoidable. The shorter version is still accurate. The crossed-out versions are helpful, I think. They explain some of the criteria that are used in practice, in real articles, to decide which claims can be attributed to which sources. — Carl (CBM · talk) 03:23, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

Yep. Good job Vassyana. This is precisely the relationship of OR to sources. Nothing more. Nothing less.

For stylistic reasons (see following notes) I would write it as follows (sentence for sentence):

Statements in a Misplaced Pages article must be verifiable from the sources cited.

Avoid transmitting a passing comment or ambiguous sentence (open to interpretation) even when the source is a reliable source.

<strike third sentence since folded into second>

Drawing own conclusions or extrapolating a position is original research regardless of the type of source.

Where possible, use only those statements in the source that deal directly with the subject (being written for?).

A summary of an extended discussion must reflect the conclusions of the source's author(s).

Sources must be cited in context and on topic.
(alternatively: A source statement must have the same context and topic as the Misplaced Pages statement that uses that source.)

Notes:

I've switched from passive to active voice (eg "Claims left open" -> "Claims open") and avoided nested conditionals, etc.

I've avoided the word "claims" in favor of explicit mention of whether we mean source or target. This is ambiguous in the original, Eg. In sentence 3,4,5 its source while in 1,2 its target. Also "claims" sounds a little pejorative to me.

The word "transmitting" in sentence two should be replaced. I couldn't think of a better word.

The "even" clause that appears in sentence #2 is probably superfluous (ideally, all used sources are reliable). I've retained it anyway.

I'm not sure what "central topic of the work" in sentence #5 refers to (source or target), thus my "(being written for?)" in parenthesis.

Comments? -- Fullstop (talk) 03:25, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I've matched struck out sentences now. -- Fullstop (talk) 03:28, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. I've revised the language somewhat in light of your comments. What do you think? Vassyana (talk) 11:45, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I disliked the phrasing of "overt conclusions" in the first, but most of my concerns are well addressed by the rephrasing in the second version, and I support it. Phil Sandifer (talk) 14:31, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't quite follow - both include the word 'overt'. The motivation for it is that the wording becomes too strict if it is replaced by 'stated' and too weak if it is replaced by 'obvious' or 'implicit'. If you can think of another word that fits better, that would be fine. — Carl (CBM · talk) 14:43, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Ack, sorry - I missed that the "overt conclusions" sentence had survived. I would like to lose this sentence. I think it closes off too much. To my mind, there are three (very poorly defined) types of conclusion we can have in a source - overt, implicit, and, let's say, subtle/tenuous/extended/whatever. Overt, obviously, are OK. The latter category seem to me what we want to avoid. But I think implicit ones are also important, and, while not always acceptable, certainly not always wrong on the face of it either. (I'm using "implicit" here to refer, essentially, to obvious conclusions that the reader is meant to draw.) I don't know how better to phrase the sentence, and I'm inclined to simply remove it- I think the rest of the paragraph stands well on its own, and that the sentence is somewhat disposable within it. Phil Sandifer (talk) 14:49, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, what about "evident" in place of "overt"? I think it's neutral enough to cover the acceptable spectrum of use, but still conveys the right idea. Vassyana (talk) 17:07, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Evident works great. Phil Sandifer (talk) 17:13, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Change made. Anything else that can be tweaked or improved that you see off-hand? Vassyana (talk) 17:22, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't incongruent be incongruous? Or if you really do mean incongruent (is there a fine distinction in meaning?), perhaps choose another word, as it's not as clear as it might be.  —SMALLJIM  14:33, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I suppose "variant" or "discrepant" could be used instead of "incongruent". Any reasonable synonym indicating passages that are self-contradicting and/or dissonant with the overall tone/claims of a reference would suffice. Vassyana (talk) 17:07, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

After a bit of research I thought you were using this meaning of "incongruent", though I'm not sure now. Anyway based on the assumption (hope?) that I'm no dumber than the majority of WP editors, a simpler way of phrasing that concept should be used so that everyone can understand. Sorry, but "variant" or "discrepant" are not clearer, IMHO. It's important that all people who will be pointed to the page can easily understand it.  —SMALLJIM  17:49, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm, "inconsistent"? I think it's a simpler word and still conveys the general idea. What do you think? Vassyana (talk) 18:23, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Solution: replace "passing" with "incidental", then drop the comma before "or" and switch word order around to place "incongruous" last.

The sentence then reads:

Article statements should not rely on unclear, incidental or incongruous comments, even if the source is especially reliable.

Reason:

An incongruous/incongruent comment is a comment that is at odds with something. The unspecified "something" is the problem here, but is really only obvious because "incongruent" is immediately followed by a <comma> <adverb/adjective> <subject>

In the form it appears now, the clause with incongruous/incongruent needs a "with."

This can be made evident by replacing "incongruent" with a synonym: e.g. "... incompatible with ...," "... in disharmony with ...," "... in disagreement with ...," "... at variance with ...," "... at odds with ..." etc.

The rest is fine.

-- Fullstop (talk) 19:04, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

OK. Not sure now about the apparent emphasis given to "comments". So what about something like:

"==Using sources==

Information in an article must be verifiable in the references cited. Statements made in articles should not rely on unclear or inconsistent passages, or on incidental comments in those references, even if the source is especially reliable. …"

or even, reorganising a little:

"==Using sources==

The references cited in an article must verify the statements made in that article. However, these statements must not rely on unclear or inconsistent passages in the references or on incidental comments in them, even if the source is especially reliable. …"

(but maybe that's changing too much)  —SMALLJIM  20:05, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I've revised the wording accordingly. Vassyana (talk) 11:25, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

A version of this "Using sources" passage has just been added to the policy. I object to the sentence "Article statements should not rely on unclear or inconsistent passages, nor on passing comments, even if the source is especially reliable." This sentence is about the reliability of the source, not whether the editor performed original research when he/she included information from the source in a Misplaced Pages article. Furthermore, if an editor argues on the talk page that information from the source should be excluded, the editor is making an interpretation of the source, and deciding that certain passages in the source are unclear or inconsistent, or that the author regarded certain statements as merely passing comments. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 05:01, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Reliability and verifiability are directly related to original research. For example, unverifiable and original research are close cousins, if not synonyms. Relying on unclear, inconsistent and/or passing statements to support clear article statements is almost certainly original research. I really don't think that's an unusual or controversial train of thought. Also, I'm unsure what you intend to imply by your closing statement. It sounds like a normal application of editorial discretion and local consensus to me. Vassyana (talk) 05:06, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I tried for a minute to rephrase the sentence, but didn't quite get it. I'm sure some rewording can be found that explains better how the issue is related to OR vis-a-vis RS. — Carl (CBM · talk) 05:18, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

If you come up with something, please let us know. :) I know from my experience in making proposals and trying to find areas of agreement & compromise that the devil is in the wording and phrases chosen. I honestly don't understand how the statement is particularly unclear/problematic, but if you have some idea of how it's weak, I would appreciate the explanation so I can try modifying the wording accordingly. Vassyana (talk) 05:28, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Turning unclear statements into clear statements is original research. Quoting an unclear statement verbatim might be useful to show that confusion exists on a particular topic. It might be useful to use even a passing comment, if the writer who made the passing comment is known to be an expert in that field. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 18:42, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Using an unclear statement for that purpose would most certainly be original research. The proper way to show confusion exists for a particular topic would be to preferably cite a source detailing the confusion, or to simply follow normal NPOV practice and report the conflicting or differing accounts of the matter. I can imagine that in some rare cases that passing comments may be useful and appropriate. However, in the vast majority of cases I have seen and could conceive of, it is far more likely that relying on passing comments will present a distorted view of the subject not truly reflective of the sources (original research). Vassyana (talk) 06:05, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• In response to Gerry's observation that (with the "even..." clause) "the sentence about the reliability of the source"...

I have to agree here. The "even if the source is especially reliable" doesn't actually contribute anything to the spirit of what precedes it. At least as I read it. So, the "even" clause might just as well be dropped. "Article statements should not rely on unclear or inconsistent passages, nor on passing comments" is sufficient.

• In response to "might be useful to use even a passing comment"...

A passing comment might be useful but it would always be OR. A passing comment is by definition incidental, i.e. not on topic. Even so, such a reference would not violate "should not rely" would it? The "should" pretty much flags that sentence as a guideline and not as a hard-and-fast rule.

-- Fullstop (talk) 03:05, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

When a reliable source contains a statement, it is not original research to use that statement in Misplaced Pages, unless the editor does something to change the meaning of the statement from what it meant in the reliable source. Such unacceptable changes could include rephrasing the statement to make it more more (or less) definite than it was in the original source, or using it in a different context such that the meaning changes. For example, if author A wrote that celebrity C received cocaine in connection with eye surgery (a legitimate medical use of cocaine), and a Misplaced Pages editor wrote that celebrity C received cocaine in an article about celebrity drug abuse, that would be OR, and violate a score of other rules too. But if the statement were used in Misplaced Pages in a way that it has the same meaning as in the original source, it's OK. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 03:20, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes! Yes! Yes! We're perfectly in agreement here. And an excellent example of out-of-context OR, btw. :)

My point with the "passing comment" was that incidental comments are - by definition - not really relevant to what the author is actually talking about. Ergo, they have no context. Passing comments - particularly when they snipe at colleagues - are lovely to read, but they rarely contribute anything of substance. When they are underhanded, they aren't even usable to demonstrate critique. -- Fullstop (talk) 03:38, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Let me try to invent an acceptable use of a passing comment. Computer scientist X writes, in a reliable source, about the origin of computer the computer language ROTBOL. He mentions in passing that he helped computer scientist Y to find a conference room because Y became blind at the age of 50. A Misplaced Pages editor includes this in a biography of Y. The information has the same meaning in the reliable source, and in the Misplaced Pages biography article, so it's OK. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 04:44, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Original research is not judged purely on a statement by statement basis. One can stick to the sources on a statement by statement basis and still end up with a result that provides a synthesis or implied view that does not accurately reflect the references as a whole.

For example, one could easily multiple statements in the Bible that state that one should follow the example of, or obey the statements of, apostles. One could then follow that with multiple biblical references stating that Judas Iscariot was an apostle. Then, that could be followed by a citation to Judas' betrayal of Christ and suicide.

Even without providing additional commentary or going beyond the source in individual statements, a picture is woven that the Bible says we should follow the example of Judas Iscariot in his betrayal and suicide. To be sure, this type of synthesis can be done simply by cherrypicking sources. Context as a broader whole needs to be considered to identify whether it is a prohibited synthesis and it is context that is lacking with incidental comments.

To be sure, there are probably some cases where passing comments are uncontroversial and the context is clear. However, this is a very small minority of such statements, simply by their nature. As with all guidance, which cases are acceptable in practice needs to be determined by editorial discretion and local consensus. Vassyana (talk) 06:05, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

This is a policy. A flat requirement in this policy must not exclude any legitimate source. A requirement that usually applies, but has some exceptions, should be phrased accordingly. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 19:03, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

"Should" seemed conditional enough to me, but I've added the word "generally" (in the "live" version) to more clearly indicate that there are some legitimate exceptions. Vassyana (talk) 19:53, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Using the "long" version

Would there be an objection to adding the two additional sentences from the longer version? My reasoning for their inclusion:

These statements provide advice that is plainly sensible to help avoid misrepresenting the subject. I think we can all agree that misrepresentation is original research (since such a distortion does not accurately reflect the sources). Comments? Vassyana (talk) 06:17, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the second sentence. I think the essence of the first statement is that the authors of the source probably paid more attention to, and did a better job with, passages directly related to the central topic. Thus, the source is less reliable for material that is only peripherally related to the central topic. So this is a statement about the reliability of sources, and belongs in WP:RS.

Certainly there are certain categories of crackpots that make a practice of quoting sources out of context. (Tax protestors immediately come to mind.) But for people who edit in good faith, and understand the distinction between source-based research and wishful thinking, the issue is reliablility, not original research. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 19:14, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Makes sense. Thanks for the feedback. Vassyana (talk) 19:54, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The second sentence seems agreeable to everyone, so I have added to the live policy. Vassyana (talk) 12:35, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

This dispute is disputed.

I just had to comment on this. This has to be the most asinine possible thing for the page to get protected over.--Father Goose (talk) 06:49, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

The best thing to do with 'this is disputed' tags is to ignore them and work to resolve the actual dispute. Adding the tag doesn't change the content of the page, and removing it doesn't actually resolve disagreements. — Carl (CBM · talk) 13:20, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I'll admit, I thought the same way as Father Goose when I first encountered this discussion. What changed my opinion (besides the fact all of the parties were making thoughtful contributions) is the chief challenge to any version of this policy, which is that it must be understood by people who have never written a research paper, & thus they have no idea why the rules for writing a Misplaced Pages article are different. <not entirely joking>I blame the educators: they claim that Misplaced Pages is full of unreliable information, but somehow overlook the fact it is created by the same people they educate.</not entirely joking> -- llywrch (talk) 17:33, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

First: don't blame the educators. :p And no, its not true that they claim that WP is full of unreliable information. What educators say is "do your homework!," which in the main means "read the damn sources yourself," and secondarily means "do not cite WP or any other encyclopedia." Encyclopedias are indispensable for background information.

Second: if students did not learn do the legwork themselves, how on earth can they be expected to write for the 'pedia? (cf. "it must be understood by people who have never written a research paper")

-- Fullstop (talk)

I think the truly asinine thing is that there is a heated dispute about whether or not the section is truly disputed. I guess people just don't see the irony. This is now the second time the article has been protected over the tag issue. COGDEN 22:42, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Cogden, this whole dispute is a non-issue. No one is saying don't use primary sources. All people are saying is use them with particular care by sticking very closely to what the sources say, because they're easy to misuse. Why would you object to this? SlimVirgin 00:04, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Slim, that's just not true. The PSTS section used to say not to use primary sources. That is what brought the slow simmer over PSTS to a boil. Dhaluza (talk) 02:01, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Can you provide a diff for that Dhaluza? Before this dispute started, the PSTS section stated:

Primary sources that have been published by a reliable source may be used in Misplaced Pages, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them".

This was the status quo for a very long time. The real dispute has been over further loosening and even removing the limitations on use of Primary sources. Dreadstar † 02:20, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, here is the diff that put "Misplaced Pages articles should rely on reliable, published secondary sources." in bold, which preceded the first in the chain of recent page protections. And prior to this change, it actually said: "Although most articles should rely predominantly on secondary sources, there are rare occasions when they may rely entirely on primary sources (for example, current events or legal cases)". So the whole line of argument that this has been consistently part longstanding policy is just revisionist history. Dhaluza (talk) 11:28, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

The contents of your diff clearly does not prohibit the use of Primary Sources in Misplaced Pages articles. It clearly states "Primary sources that have been published by a reliable source may be used in Misplaced Pages, but only with care, because it's easy to misuse them" (emphasis mine). Saying articles should "rely predominantly on...secondary sources" in no way prohibits the use of Primary Sources. Perhaps clearing up this simple misunderstanding of what the policy states can end this entire dispute. NOR does not, nor has it ever been intended to prohibit the use of primary sources. It just says to use them with caution, and that Misplaced Pages articles should rely on secondary sources - not must rely only on Secondary sources...that's a total misreading of what the policy has stated all along. Dreadstar † 15:47, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Forgive me for being somewhat imprecise. What NOR originally said is that WP is not a primary source, and that has been changed over time to say that articles cannot be based on primary sources, which is a completely different thing. In fact, until 6 months ago, the "long standing" version of this policy specifically said that in some cases articles could be based entirely on primary sources, but this was changed as well. Dhaluza (talk) 00:44, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, that's very different from what has been argued here all along, and also different from your statement above, "The PSTS section used to say not to use primary sources." Dreadstar † 21:38, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Plus, in some cases, primary sources are still entirely banned. Highly-technical primary sources are banned, because nobody without specialized education can verify to them, while, anomalously, highly-technical secondary sources are allowed, even though nobody can understand them other than Ph.Ds, and even though the secondary sources are, themselves, also primary sources. COGDEN 02:20, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

As I argued several sections ago (in the section about the hypothetical highly technical math article drawn from a primary source), I don't think it's necessary to interpret the policy this way. But, frankly, it's a reasonable approach for a general encyclopedia such as Misplaced Pages ("the encyclopedia that anyone can edit"). If the material is called into question and WP's most highly technical editors can't find a reliable secondary or tertiary source that says the same thing they assert is in the primary source, then don't use the primary source of the highly technical material and remove the material in keeping with the policy. ... Kenosis (talk) 03:26, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Saying that the present PSTS language does not "need to be" interpreted this way means that you probably agree it can be interpreted this way. Why, then, would you oppose eliminating the ambiguity? Is it because you really want it to be interpreted this way? If so, this seems like a back-door way to insert this interesting editing philosophy upon Misplaced Pages in violation of WP:POLICY. The important point is that this is not the way things have been in math, science, and philosophy articles since 2001. If you believe things should be done differently, you are free to try to convince editors of that, and if the idea catches on and becomes consensus practice in highly technical articles, it becomes policy, but not until. COGDEN 11:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I also think the protection was over the top. As far as I could see, everyone was keeping to the one-revert-rule, so that is hardly an edit war. By protecting the page, we never see how many people are willing to go on the record for one version or another. And it blocks further work on other issues. Dhaluza (talk) 02:01, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

You should refresh your memory about edit warring. If people want to be on the record, they can make a statement on this talk page. — Carl (CBM · talk) 02:11, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

We have discussed this on the talk page, and the editing was in conjunction with talk page discussion. So cutting off this process is hardly conductive to reaching consensus. And how is protection better? If the only "problem" is adding and removing the tag, what is the harm? Since there is no agreement over whether it should be in or out, how does arbitrarily selecting one alternative solve the problem? I would submit that having it on the page part time is less disruptive than locking it in or out. Dhaluza (talk) 02:19, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

It was an edit war, plain and simple; so the protection was right on target and needs to stay in place until this entire dispute is over and done with. I do not believe that Policy pages should contain dispute tags. Dreadstar † 02:25, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Tags are not pretty, but they are far better than having perpetual protection and a policy article that claims to have widespread consensus, but really doesn't, while a discussion on the talk page rages on for eternity, consensus gradually falling further and further away from the protected language, and there's nothing we can do about it until the original cabal of authors dies. COGDEN 02:40, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you, right up until the end. Please try to be patient, and civil. Dhaluza (talk) 10:42, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

The primary source section has been in the policy for three years

To people who are arguing that this is a new(ish) section, or that the meaning was recently changed, the stress on secondary sources was added on December 10, 2004 (see lead), and entered the policy in more or less its current form on March 8, 2005, when it said:

"In order to avoid doing original research, and in order to help improve the quality of Misplaced Pages articles, it is essential that any primary source material used in an article has been published or otherwise made available to people who do not rely on Misplaced Pages. Moreover, it is essential that any generalization, analysis, synthesis, interpretation, or evaluation of information or data come from a secondary source that is available to readers (e.g. in a library or non-Misplaced Pages web-page).

Three years means that this is very much the consensus version, and it really can't be changed or kept tagged because one or two people don't like it. All policies would be in a constant state of war were that the case.

Cogden, it strikes me that you must have had a particular experience of trying to add primary-source material somewhere, and being prevented by this section, for you to be as keen as this to change it. Can you show us what that issue was, please? It's possible that the policy was simply misused in your case, and that this is all a giant misunderstanding. Wouldn't that be nice? :-) SlimVirgin 07:24, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Amen to that, Reverend Mother. And, in anticipation of COGDEN's reply, let's not forget that when an ad hoc policy change closes a door, somewhere it opens a window. Avb 11:17, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Not at all. Actually, I've never had a problem adding primary sources to articles, and I've cited a lot of them. See, for example, featured articles Early life of Joseph Smith, Jr. and golden plates. Nobody ever has a problem with this because PSTS as it is currently written does not actually reflect current widespread Misplaced Pages practice outside the rarified air of us policy wonks. Citation to primary sources has actually solved countless edit wars in various articles caused by the use of conflicting, highly-biased secondary sources that misquote and spin the original material. The solution to that problem is always to cite the primary source, then discuss any notable interpretations of that source. In controversial fields, for reasons mostly of WP:NPOV, you can never rely primarily on secondary sources. You use primary sources, if possible, to say what, why, when, where, and how, and secondary sources to say who's lying and who's version is more accurate. COGDEN 21:35, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

So, if I'm understanding you correctly, you never had a problem with WP:NOR because you ignored it, didn't know about it, or your usage either didn't actually violate the policy or you weren't called on it, and now you want to change the policy to reflect your apparent usage and views on the subject. I'd like to see some evidence of these 'countless edit wars' that were resolved by Primary sources that were somehow forbidden by this policy. Primary sources are not forbidden, they are just to be used carefully and judiciously. The problem with primary sources is that they are often misused by editors to add their own spin and create a new analysis or research. Removing the limitations on the use of primary sources will open a Pandora's box of problems. Dreadstar † 01:25, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I must say, that just because editors aren't abiding by policy doesn't mean the policy needs to be changed or not enforced when we find violations. Policy should be changed if it's bad policy, or something new and better is written - not because some editors out there aren't following it. There has to be more reasoning behind a change than that. If a whole bunch of editors start walking off a cliff, I'm not going to suggest we write a policy that says others should follow lemming-like off the precipice. Dreadstar † 01:37, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

As discussed above, you seem to have a problem with the WP:POLICY article. If you think we should violate WP:POLICY here, you should be arguing that WP:POLICY should be changed. I don't see you making any such arguments. Policy is not the same as policy articles. The articles are not some sort of "code"—they are a description of widespread consensus practices, and they can be wrong. The PSTS section has been wrong for quite some time now, and I follow the actual consensus policy, rather than the way the policy is mis-characterized in PSTS. COGDEN 12:04, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

SlimVirgin, you have made this "really long time" assertion before, and I have refuted it with the diffs, so here they are again:

This edit from March 8, 2005 introduced the original definition of primary sources as factual sources. In this edit from October 23, 2006 you significantly changed the definition to close sources.

Okay, that's what I'm not seeing. What is the substantive difference between the two versions (i.e. please show me which of the new sentences changed something) and what is a "close source"? SlimVirgin 08:08, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

And what is a "factual source"? Look, the definition of primary source hasn't changed, because we're using the definition that scholars use -- we're not making up our own words here. I was one of the editors who worked on the draft back on 2004/2005 with Slrubenstein and others, and I can't see that it has changed substantively over the years. Nor can Slrubenstein, so far as I know. SlimVirgin 08:12, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

A factual source is one that makes a basic statement of fact, a close source is one close to the subject. If we are looking at a source rendering an opinion on itself, it would be a secondary source under the old definition, and a primary source under the new one. Frankly, I think the source typing is not helpful in this case. Regardless of whether we classify it as primary or secondary, or whatever, we need to judge if the source is reliable in the context in which it is used (not how it was written). But this is a fundamental change, which is just further evidence there really is no "long-standing policy" on PSTS at all. Dhaluza (talk) 02:30, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Considering that this policy has only been in existence for a total of four years, and has only been fully fleshed out into its current state within the last two and a half years, I'd say something that has been included in the policy for over a year is indeed "long-standing". Dreadstar † 00:44, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, I don't think there is any significant disagreement with the quote you cited above. Nobody has made a serious argument for allowing unpublished primary sources, and there has not been any serious argument about excluding editors' analysis or synthesis over those published by RS. So if you are proposing to trim PSTS down to these essential points, I would support that. The only thing I question is the need to use the defined terms primary and secondary sources. Just leave that out and you get this even more succinct and direct version:

"In order to avoid incorporating original research in Misplaced Pages articles, source material must have been previously published or otherwise made available to people other than on Misplaced Pages. Moreover, it is essential that any generalization, analysis, synthesis, interpretation, or evaluation of information or data come from a source that is available to readers (e.g. in a library or non-Misplaced Pages web-page)."

-- Dhaluza (talk) 11:02, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

The 'nice' thing about having the dispute tag visible is it has probably played a part in more people finally coming onto this talk page to try and find the 'what and why' of the dispute. Before the tag was present, the discussion was limited to only around 30 or so editors. Since the tag first appeared, it seems like another 20 or so have joined the discussions. It seems to me that more people that know about a dispute, and the more people who care to participate, the easier it will finally be for one side or the other to truly claim concensus. Just because a large group of people don't know a dispute (or discussion) is going on and therefore don't participate is hardly grounds for claiming concensus. The disputed section was placed into policy when only a small group of around five people were working on this policy. Notice was never made at the VP, so the overwhelming mahority of wikipedia editors were completely unaware of what changes were being done (not even being proposed, but just done). Then, the changes sat quietly unopposed for a period of time (because only a handful knew of them maybe?), and then other claim that they were long-standing policy. (This can clearly be seen by looking at the archives of the talk pages and the dit history). While some may see the dispute tag as harmful to policies, I see it as advertising for more people to actively participate and attempt to make their points heard so this can truly reach a concensus, instead of being kept in a dark closet most people rarely venture into. I'd wager that when most people do venture to this policy page, they take a look at what the policy says, shake their heads trying to figure out what it means, especially with the sidetracked definitions of PSTS, figure it's all just Administrator mumbo-jumbo, and go back to their articles. If they see the tag, some will actually decide to see what it's about, as maybe there's something that may help explain a bit more, and they get an oppurtunity to see what the fuss is about and maybe participate. Unless of course, some would rather keep the discussions away from the masses that make up concensus. wbfergus 11:50, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

The bad thing about a dispute tag is that it undermines the policy and sets a precedent for tagging anytime someone disagrees with something in a policy. Since someone is always disagreeing with some aspect of each and every policy we have, we would just have permanent dispute tags on every policy. A dispute tag is not the best way to advertise a Policy dispute, there are plenty of other avenues to draw attention to it. Dreadstar † 15:40, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I can see that a tag on a policy page stating that its contents are in "dispute" could be damaging. So would it be better if there was a tag that was worded in a less argumentative fashion? Something like "There is currently a discussion about some aspects of this section - please see the talk page, and join in if you have an opinion." That would still potentially grab my interest, without apparently shouting out that there were major problems at the core of WP.  —SMALLJIM  00:04, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

There was another tag that was used, {{Policycontroversy}}, which was more neutral. We could always use it again instead of {{Disputedtag}}. COGDEN 12:13, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for responding to me, but even my battered old brain can tell that that template is nothing like what I suggested! I'm not familiar with creating templates (yet), as you obviously are - so could I ask if you could create one called "Policy discussion" for me, containing the text I suggested above, please? Then we can see if it is helpful.  —SMALLJIM  20:02, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

As long as the tags were only on the sections that were under discussion, that might be acceptable. Then they would move around as one issue was settled and another was discussed. The issue at present is that just removing the tag (or adding it) doesn't affect the actual disagreement. I think SlimVirgin is on the right track above - we should find out what each person here is concerned with, which would clarify the discussion. Personally, I am mostly concerned that the wording of this policy stays compatible with actual best practices used in science and math articles. What are other people worried about? — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:52, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Conforming to science and math article practice is one of my main concerns as well. Also, since I work a lot in highly-controversial history fields, I know from experience that the greater the subject matter's controversy, the greater must be the reliance on primary sources. You don't really understand this until you work on articles in ultra-controversial fields. Another concern of mine is general Misplaced Pages quality: an article that does not make use of available primary sources is an inferior article. On the other hand, I agree that we don't want people interpreting raw scientific data or maps in controversial or non-obvious ways, but I feel we can advise against this by using concepts other than primariness and secondariness, which would not limit or discourage use of excellent primary sources such as a scientist's interpretation of her own data, or a historical figure's interpretation of a historical situation they were part of. COGDEN 21:54, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the statement " I know from experience that the greater the subject matter's controversy, the greater must be the reliance on primary sources." : In other words, you're doing, or wanting to do, original research in Misplaced Pages articles. ... Kenosis (talk) 22:56, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

What on earth do you mean by that? Are you saying that citing peer-reviewed journal articles is prima facie evidence of violating WP:NOR? Sorry to be blunt, but that's ridiculous. Raymond Arritt (talk) 23:07, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm saying, also bluntly, maybe not bluntly enough, that this statement taken together with Cogden's other statements amounts to an advocacy of primary-source based research in Misplaced Pages articles. When Misplaced Pages editors can't find secondary or tertiary sources to back up the assertions found in primary sources, the statements in the articles should be limited to the scope permitted under the present expression of WP:PSTS. If the insights or information in those primary sources you're referring to are useful, the secondary sources will be published quickly enough. If they're not that useful, the information asserted in such a primary source tends to die in its tracks. Take, for instance, Jacques Benveniste's article in the journal Nature as a famous example. The secondary sources were all over ithe place within months and the information Benveniste provided about water memory was ultimately put into its proper perspective by the secondary sources w.r.t. about that particular set of assertions whose primary source was the peer-reviewed Benveniste article. In other cases the secondary sources will bear the primary source out in due course. It's not our job in Misplaced Pages to be drawing the information presented to readers from the primary sources, except within the limits of WP:PSTS. ... Kenosis (talk) 00:32, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Good Lord, you were serious... How do you reconcile this with the advice in WP:V that includes peer-reviewed journals as being among the "most reliable sources"? And how do you reconcile it with the utterly abysmal state of science journalism -- the fount of those wonderful "secondary sources" -- in the U.S. and some other countries? Raymond Arritt (talk) 00:43, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm saying use them in any given article as often as the local consensus sees fit, but use in keeping with the policy, keeping the information closely consistent with that primary source in such a way that any reasonably educated person can recognize its consistency by looking at that primary source and comparing it to what's written in the wikipedia page that cites to that primary source. Where an interpretation is involved, one or more secondary sources must be involved in the interpretation. Otherwise it's original research. The policy is quite clear on this, repeating the concept on the policy page in several different ways. Maybe someone should give an example of an article where this actually is a problem before calling it a problem. ... Kenosis (talk) 03:09, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Now I'm thoroughly confused. Before, you made a sweeping assertion that using journal articles (i.e., primary sources) constituted OR, but now you're saying that it's OK as long as any "reasonably educated person" (try getting any two Wikipedians to agree on what that means!) can see that the article is in agreement with the source. I think I'll go back to doing what most people here do, which is to ignore the endless byzantine policy discussions and go about writing and improving articles... Raymond Arritt (talk) 03:32, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I apologize if it seemed that way. I drew this conclusion based upon the sum total of Cogden's comments in the context of his spearheading a several-months-long effort to remove WP:PSTS from the policy. And I'm not the only one who has interpreted the sum of Cogden's arguments w.r.t. PSTS in this basic fashion. Unfortunately I don't have time to organize a list of Cogden's relevant comments that IMO quite reasonably lead to such a conclusion. ... Kenosis (talk) 03:50, 8 December 2007 (UTC) ... And perhaps needless to say, I'm angry at him right now -- IMO, much of this debate has been an unfortunate drain of time and energy in defense of what I and many others consider to be a very reasonable policy that was originally set into motion by J.Wales several years ago. ... Kenosis (talk) 03:52, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

So it was in the context of a particular editor's actions. Thanks for pointing that out. I can get a little paranoid about the anti-science POV that is common in Misplaced Pages, as I tend to edit in some rough neighborhoods. Raymond Arritt (talk) 03:56, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm definitely familiar with some of the work you've done, and appreciate and respect it highly. ... Kenosis (talk) 04:12, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad you are angry, Kenosis, you've moved past denial, and once you get over your anger, bargaining is the next stage of grief, and maybe we'll reach an agreement. I'm just kidding. Lighten up! Arguments like these, and the difficulties at arriving at consensus are what Misplaced Pages is about. COGDEN 12:28, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

No big problem; I think it's already at "acceptance". ;-) But TBH, the argumentation became unproductive awhile ago, IMO. The arguments against PSTS have been all over the map, so to speak, shotgun style, and IMO are not representative of any significant problems with the policy. The disagreements about how to implement it, among editors of individual articles, are no more prevalent than arguments over NPOV or V.

Kenosis, are you saying that editors cannot use their own experience to determine what is actual current Misplaced Pages practice and consensus? How else to we determine whether policy articles reflect current practice as per WP:POLICY? COGDEN 12:28, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

To the first question: The answer is that the question is irrelevant-- where editors use their own experience to determine what is current practice and consensus, whether across the entire wiki or in a given area or category within the wiki, it is of necessity a community assessment, not an individual one. Dreadstar and others have already made the point that silence or lack of constant participation by everyone on the talk page w.r.t. a longstanding policy does not demonstrate widespread disagreement with the policy. And, vocal opposition by a relatively small group of editors does not demonstrate community rejection of a longstanding policy. This current policy, despite what was IMO some reasonable quibbling about the precise language, is longstanding in comparison to the age of Misplaced Pages itself, and is fundamentally a stable, widely accepted policy. To the second question: This question too is irrelevant-- editorial policy is not solely determined by a set of arguments over current practice but also reflects editorial ideals and goals. This policy was set into motion by WP's founder, and its objectives are reflected in numerous articles across the wiki in which it has been applied successfully to mitigate and/or resolve problems relating to the validity of the articles' content. Most of the objections to the policy, on the other hand, have been hypothetical, and where actual examples have been alleged to be a problem, we have given ways that the article editors can use to solve the problems they may have in conceptualizing the policy w.r.t. their particular article or category of article.. ... Kenosis (talk) 20:00, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Kenosis seems to read the policy differently than I do. To take the Beneveniste case, there may not have been any primary source involved. Some people regard all peer-reviewed articles as secondary sources, because the reviewers evaluate the author's claims. In any case, any information that appeared in the Nature article could be included in Misplaced Pages, even if the information in Nature made "analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims", provided it was the author of the Nature article that made the claims, and it wasn't a case of the Misplaced Pages editor inferring the claims from the Nature article. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 00:47, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Of course the evaluative claims made by Benveniste were part of that primary source and are fair game to use within the limits prescribed by WP:PSTS. They're fair game as long as any resonably educated person can look at the text of the wikipedia article and then look at the page cited to in the source and conclude that it has been reported accurately. To give an example of why this is a reasonable policy mandate, take for instance the article on homeopathy, where numerous primary sources involve experiments with differing experimental results. Firstly, just the fact that they're published in "peer reviewed journals" doesn't make them all equally reliable. This necessitated that Misplaced Pages editors find reliable secondary summaries so as to avoid sifting through the numerous primary sources of experimental reporting on the matters at issue there. Similarly it was with intelligent design, where the primary sources on the various permutations of intelligent design needed to be quoted or otherwise represented in a way that any reasonably educated person could verify the accuracy of the Misplaced Pages reporting by looking at the Misplaced Pages text and comparing it to the primary source without being a molecular biologist or another type of specialist. The evaluative portions in that article were all drawn from reliable secondary sources including material published by the NAS and many other scientific organizations. Same with global warming, where there is not one primary source that makes any kind of broad evaluative claim that wasn't backed up by one or more reliable secondary sources, and in the instances where primary sources such as a particular study are used, the article sticks to the facts. That article, in my estimation of it, is an excellent example of one that is in compliance with both the letter and the spirit of WP:PSTS. ... Kenosis (talk) 03:25, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Arguments have a context. The context of everything in this page is No Original Research. When someone writes about problems with primary sources published in reliable publications, and how secondary sources eventually evaluated the primary sources as wrong, the natural inclination is to think this has something to do with No Original Research, since the argument is occuring on this page. In fact, the process of deciding that a source that meets the criteria in WP:RS is wrong, and in fact is so wrong that it isn't even worth mentioning as a minority view, is really just a matter of good source-based research, and has nothing to do NOR. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 04:07, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that editorial supervision, such as peer review, converts a primary source to a secondary one--that is a reliability issue only. But I do agree that OR is about what the source is. If it's the editor, it's OR; if it's a published author, it's not. The rest of the primary source baggage is just unnecessary obfuscation of what should be a simple principle and policy. Dhaluza (talk) 02:39, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

The article was just unprotected. Let's try to keep it that way; it's somewhat embarrassing that editors on either side continue to revert the disputed template, not to mention WP:LAME. I'm glad to see the productive discussion just above, which I hope will clarify the nature of the disagreement. — Carl (CBM · talk) 04:33, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Please

The page just got unprotected again. Please do not express opinions through the editing of the policy. Bring concerns, disagreements, etc here to the talk page for discussion. The expression of opinions through editing instead of discussion is what has lead to this policy being page protected on multiple occasions. Let's talk things out instead of making opinionated edits. Vassyana (talk) 05:01, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Some amount of bold editing is required, which could be interpreted as the expression of opinion. But if it an edit clearly hasn't stuck, leaving the wrong version for 24 hours to discuss the issue won't hurt anything in the long run. — Carl (CBM · talk) 05:53, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Request wording change and clarification

I seem to have a problem with the current wording of the policy, where it states:

• only make descriptive claims about the information found in the primary source, the accuracy and applicability of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and
• make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims about the information found in the primary source, unless such claims are verifiable from another source.

Can this be reworded better, so the intent is more clear? How can you make a descriptive claim without some sort of analysis, interpretation, explanation, or evaluation? These two sentences seem to be directly contradicting each other, making it impossible to meet both criteria. For example, I include a table from a primary source (which is a map). The table uses the column headings of realms, regions and sub-regions. A similar table from other maps use the column headings of divisions, provinces, and sections. These tables describe the same things, but one uses different headings. The way those two sentences are written, even in the article contents I can't say they're the same things, just with different terminology, unless there is a secondary source that specifically says that. In my perusals of the various literature so far, none of them specifically say that, instead they ignore the column headings used in the primary source and just use the 'standard' terms of divisions, provinces and sections, without any explanation of what or why. I'm sure cases like this have to happen in more than just this one instance. wbfergus 13:35, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Standardizing terminology is perfectly common, accepted practice, provided that there is agreement that it's obvious what the terminology used means. It's a necessary part of writing from multiple sources, since they almost certainly will occasionally use different words for the same thing. The difficulty is describing this practice accurately; I don't think the policy has gotten it right to date. The word evident in the sentence "Drawing conclusions not evident in the reference is original research regardless of the type of source." is a preliminary attempt to deal with this issue, as changing between two sets of equivalent terms should could as evident, provided the terms are clearly equivalent. — Carl (CBM · talk) 14:06, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

That's what I thought, that it is acceptable to standardize the terms, but as written, the policy can easily be interpreted to not allow this, as it can easily be challenged as OR since none of the secondary sources specifically state that they've standardized the terms or why they did it. As written, it seems like about all I 'really' could say about a table from a map would be "table taken from map 'XYZ', consisting of 3 columns and 45 rows with names in 'cell' contents". To say anything else could be easily interpreted as being "analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative" not specifically stated in any secondary source. I don't see how any other statements could be made about the table or contents, or why it was merged into the other tables to create a 'master' table, without violating the second condition, since those are to trivial for the other authors to have specifically adressed. For reference, these maps are of the different continental landmasses, and each continent has it's own table of these 'areas'. I'm merely creating a master table with the contents of all those individual tables, since that doesn't seem to exist anywhere else. Every source I've run across so far is solely limited a specific continent or smaller area. For us computer (database) geeks, having a 'master' list for reference as a lookup table is quite common, so I was surprised nobody had done so previously, and thought I'd share so others can use and improve it, so my 'master' could benefit eventually as well. There's been an awful lot of work on the subject over the years, but trying to find all of the applicable sources and re-definitions, etc. is a dauntng task, even for a group of people trying to stay abreast of it. wbfergus 14:30, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I feel you may be being unduly pessimistic over what a reasonable educated person could easily verify. But apart from that the phrase descriptive claims in the first bullet doesn't read quite right to me. Wouldn't descriptive statements be better? I think the lead-in to those bullets could be simplified too, and the addition of the word further to the second bullet would also help clarify. So it would read:

"When any part of an article relies on a primary source, that part of the article should:

• only make descriptive statements about the information found in the primary source, the accuracy and applicability of which are easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and
• make no further analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims about the information found in the primary source, unless such claims are verifiable from another source."

What do you think?  —SMALLJIM  15:49, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, the difficuly part is the "and". That clearly means both conditions must be met, so again, it is extremely difficult at best to make a descriptive claim (statement does sound better), without being "analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative". Those are the core components of a description. So, if you meet the first part, you almost always violate the second part. If you meet the second part, what did you add? wbfergus 23:19, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that it will be hard (except in trivial cases) to make descriptive statements without adding small amounts of analysis, synthesis et al. That's where the reasonable, educated person comes in to verify the accuracy and applicability of what you wrote. There are obviously many different ways of writing a non-trivial descriptive statement; some of them will be good, some unacceptable. The point is that, as usual, these things are not separated by hard boundaries: they grade into one another. As Vassyana said earlier today (up the page somewhere) in reply to a similar remark, these are the normal editorial decisions subject to local consensus that we all make every day when writing articles. That's why I suggested the addition of the word further in the second bullet, to allow that minimal amount of "give" that just happens when we don't simply quote the original directly. I'm sure the wording isn't perfect, but that's the concept to work towards, isn't it?  —SMALLJIM  00:24, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Need Clarification

Are blogs by political candidates acceptable for their bio?. For example, if candidate A claims that they are the best candidate to elect, can we accept that as a primary source and write the sentence, 'Candidate A is the best candidate to elect' in their biography?. TwakTwik (talk) 03:30, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, that would be fine except that it would violate NPOV - you'd have to phrase it as "Candidate A says that they are the best candidate to elect." But that's not really a NOR question as such. Phil Sandifer (talk) 03:32, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok, thats exactly the edit I requested on Gary Weiss when admins referred me to this page and said I am wasting time. Go figure!! TwakTwik (talk) 07:28, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, blogs are not normally considered reliable sources at all... but in this case, I suppose it could be considered a "self-published" source (see WP:V and WP:RS). It certainly would be against several Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines to say "Candidate A is the best candidate "... such a statement should indeed be attributed ("Candidate A states that he is the best candidate "). I'm not sure if this is a NOR issue. Blueboar (talk) 22:30, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

An addendum... I took a look at the situation at the Gary Weiss article... your example is not quite apt for the debates that are raging at that article. Blueboar (talk) 22:40, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

In that article, a Gary Weiss's blog itself was cited as source for the claim that he was threatened. That article has over 40-50% all references from Gary Weiss himself. Its indeed like saying 'Candidate A is the best candidate'. TwakTwik (talk) 05:29, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Recent changes

Regarding the change of WP:PSTS back to a newly proposed form of WP:PSS here, for example, I do not see significant expression of consensus for this kind of change. Firstly, it goes back to over a year ago when the mention of tertiary sources gave a perspective on encyclopedic sources in the context originally set into motion by Jimmy Wales three years ago. This change was a very significant one that eliminated the examples of primary sources suggested by many participants in various areas of the wiki. It also placed secondary sources prior to primary sources in a way that appears likely to be even more confusing to readers that have not been directly involved in this discussion or who have closely analyzed the concept before. So I reverted here, leaving intact some other changes Vassyana made to the section on "Using sources".

I noted two proposed sentences at the beginning of the section ("Appropriate sourcing is a complicated issue, and these are general rules. Deciding which sources are most appropriate for an article is a matter of common sense and good editorial judgment, and should be discussed on individual article talk pages."). I do think there's meaningful information in these sentences, but I don't believe it's adequate to stand by itself as a complete replacement for the current introduction to the section on PSTS. The proposed change really was a major one. ... Kenosis (talk) 16:38, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Feel free to substantively explain your objections in the draft discussion. Please explain why the conflation of secondary and tertiary sources is a problematic move. The only objection voiced about that was that some tertiary sources are good summaries, and the replacement includes such language. Secondary sources were moved first, because there was objection that the primary source section mentions them before the definition of secondary sources. How does it going first confuse the issue at all? Could you explain your objection about the introduction further? The extant introduction doesn't say anything of substance except to say there are three categories and that they're defined by the section. The revision is surely a significant one, but this is merely a further revision of the last proposed draft, accommodating the substantiated and reasonable objections raised. It has been repeatedly exposed to the broader community through RfCs and postings on the policy village pump. It has generated a broader agreement than anything else that's come on the table, including the preexisting version. Between the fact it was broadly advertised, that it's generated more support than other alternatives and that substantive objections have been addressed, it is your burden to provide well-explained objections. Vassyana (talk) 16:58, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Someone else deal with it

I'm done. I don't have the time or interest to play games with children or to deal with people where getting substantive responses is like pulling teeth. If someone else wants to handle making changes to the draft page in my userspace, they're welcome to do so. I will not be participating on this page for the time being. It's repulsive and sickening that editors who damn well know better seem to think that reversions are a replacement for discussion and that they have veto power over edits. Two of those people have declined to take part in discussing the drafts, which is all the more revolting. When basic wiki process (discussion/formation of consensus) is meaningless, there's no point in wasting my time on this joke. Vassyana (talk) 17:10, 11 December 2007 (UTC)