Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 20:34, 22 December 2007

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

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Disgusting

I would like to say that, as an educator, I find your recent comment which states that "it's a bad educator that bans their students from reading Misplaced Pages" is ignorant, rude, and disrespectful of people who actually know how to teach and have dedicated their lives to doing so. You may revel in amateurism, but professionals can see that this site is a terrible education resource. 1.33% of the Misplaced Pages is tagged for cleanup alone. It may be interesting as a general trivia site, but it is not something I would permit my students to learn from, whether you call me a 'bad educator' or no. 86.142.48.123 (talk) 16:30, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I was going to write something here but I was stuck in a meeting this morning for 3 hours *groan* I, too, have to disagree with your statement that Misplaced Pages should be accepted for schoolwork. You even included the caveat that only articles that are well-cited should be used. What teacher is going to want to analyze every Misplaced Pages article cited to see if it is acceptable for use? Also, many (if not all) elementary, middle or even high school students would not be able to determine if an article overall has good citations or not. Besides, it is generally accepted that terciary sources are not academically acceptable. I teach my students to use encyclopedias, Misplaced Pages included, only to begin their research when they have no clue about the topic. Also, there is nothing wrong with chaining to the sources that many entries cite like newspaper articles, books etc but use the information from the original... not the encyclopedia. I write you this as one who uses Misplaced Pages extensively (see my user page and WP:SUP) for my writing and Advanced EFL classes. Don't throw down the gauntlet to educators... you get the reaction like the one above. However, keep pushing to make Misplaced Pages better. You are right that students do use it, even if prohibited. Plus, it is proving to be a really excellent way to get students to write and research.Thelmadatter (talk) 19:05, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

The BBC article is entirely misleading about my remarks. My opinion on the proper use of Misplaced Pages in the educational environment has not changed one bit. I believe that our anonymous teacher, above, would respond as the audience did: strong applause. The key, of course, is to hear what I actually said, rather than this misreporting. I have asked the BBC to run a correction.

I believe that educators whose entire response to Misplaced Pages is to tell students not to look at it are in fact bad educators. Good teachers will understand that the right approach is to teach students about the weaknessess - and strengths - of Misplaced Pages. And to caution them that Misplaced Pages is not an acceptable source for an academic citation, any more than Britannica is. Thelmadatter, I agree absolutely with your remarks about the use of Misplaced Pages in the classroom, and based on reading what you have said, I suspect we would have to work really hard in a conversation to find any differences in our opinions at all on these matters.  :-) So, I plead innocent.--Jimbo Wales 19:18, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi Jimbo, I think that the point here is not whether or not Misplaced Pages can give students accurate facts, but the evidence for these facts. When I was a student and writing essays etc. I would always have to include a bibliography unless it was clearly stated that something was my own opinion. Misplaced Pages professes to be an encyclopedia yet "encyclopedia" actually translates from the Greek as "well rounded education". How much of a well rounded education can one get from a series of "facts" that are marked ? And before you say, adding that is not a caveat for you, since you say you are an encyclopedia. You mention about teaching the "weaknesses - and strengths - of Misplaced Pages" but why should teachers have to? You may think I'm being pedantic. Fair enough, stop calling yourselves an encyclopedia then. Just my "2 cents". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.202.172.247 (talk) 00:18, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Disgusting? No way. It was a good BBC article and good to see you yet again promoting wikipedia and this time in Old Blighty. Would that I had access to such a vast body of knowledge when I was a teenager and of course those of today should be encouraged to use it. Thanks, SqueakBox 19:16, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

could you tell us what you really did say?Thelmadatter (talk) 19:35, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if there is a video or audio anywhere, but I said basically the same things that I always say. If you have seen any of my speeches where I address these questions, well, I said what I always say. (Basically, teachers can use wikipedia as a teaching opportunity to help students better assess information sources. Misplaced Pages has strengths and weaknesses. An outright ban is silly... you can tell students not to listen to rock and roll music, too. But accepting wikipedia as a citable source is not really right either.)--Jimbo Wales 22:03, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

• I agree Misplaced Pages has some flaws like anything else, BUT it is fairly new and getting better every single day. I would strongly argue that the educational system has so many more flaws, and it has had over a 100 years to reform itself. As an author, I can state that I have probably learned double the amount of information on wiki than I did in school. Our schools have ancient textbooks which have become antiquated, wiki has thousands of editors that keep everything up to the minute, from new science advances to news updates. Once they perfect all the flows in the wiki system, I strongly believe the world will embrace it as the new system for learning and education. I quote the great Thomas Edison who I believe was the greatest genius of all time: "Our schools are not teaching students to think. It is astonishing how many young people have difficulty in putting their brains definitely and systematically to work." I completely agree with Edison. In the 21st century, not much has changed with the school system, it is almost as it was one hundred years ago (that is disgusting)! I believe wiki is a system that encourages students to think and participate in history, science, and current events. Thank you Jimbo for starting Misplaced Pages!--Persianhistory2008 (talk) 08:42, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

One of my teachers frequently cites Misplaced Pages. He first gives the page a read over, then tells us to look at the specific article. He thinks it's a valuable resource. I agree with him. I learned a lot from Misplaced Pages on my Software Engineering course, and I did well on an essay (something I don't do much of on my course) thanks to Misplaced Pages. --Deskana (talk) 13:24, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I think that any good teacher should say "do read Misplaced Pages but don't trust Misplaced Pages - use it as a starting point". Any reference to Misplaced Pages as a resource necessarily has to include the need to look at the page history, the article talk, and the internal and external links. The article the student sees is only a node on a temporal trajectory (can I trademark that?). My first contribution to en:wikipedia (as an IP) was following up on an argument in a pub about orbital mechanics. Don't try this at home kids! :) Geostationary orbit said 9 miles above the surface of the Earth and I looked at it 17 times, got my CRC Handbook out, checked two websites, I knew it was obviously wrong, I couldn't just walk away, but I had to be sure that "Undo" was going to make things right. So at any given time, there are errors and I could have left that one - and if people in any way learn to rely on Misplaced Pages, well, don't shoot your mouth off in your local pub based on it and for God's sake don't build any bridges or railways. I hope Jimbo would agree that the key is to teach how to use Misplaced Pages, it is not the answer, it's the way to find the answer. Franamax (talk) 12:17, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

And there's the tradeoff between accuracy and accessability. If you use anything on the internet which is free, you usually have just the same problem as with Misplaced Pages (PUBMED govt subsidized medical references being a major exception). And what are the chances you're going to spend the afternoon at the local library pulling tomes off shelves to get something you really know you can trust? Usually you don't need to trust anything that much. It's NOT the airplane or bridge you're building-- if you do that for living, somebody has bought you refs that you damn well CAN trust. So what do you use Misplaced Pages for? Somebody's doc sends them for a PET scan and they and you want to know what that is. In 10 min with a computer or even the right cell phone, you can find out more about PET scans than the average MD knew 10 years ago. And most of what's in Misplaced Pages is accurate, or if it is not, it's obvious that it's been messed with, because 99.999% of vandals are fools and all they can do is delete stuff or add scatology. Changing a decimal in an orbital calculation is actually what you very seldom find. SBHarris 21:42, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

As I have said many times, while WP is not itself a reliable source (you never know when the page you load will say POOP), it is an excellent and possibly unparalleled resource for finding reliable sources on almost any topic. That is why some of us have worked hard to make the footnoted cites as complete as possible, so that any kid in a library can go find those sources. - Crockspot (talk) 22:15, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

But it is a joke academically. Students cannot be steered towards mercurial matter without serous warning.i.e. "Never use Misplaced Pages". opiumjones 23 (talk) 22:47, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I think Crockspot makes a good point. WP, for all its issues, is an excellent place to start one's search. It's more productive than the first 3 pages on Google in any number of searches. Also, WP serves as an ongoing exercise in fact-checking. It can be used as a great opportunity to teach students how to evaluate information in any given source. This is a skill that seems to be lacking in many students, a lack that was present prior to WP. But I have to say, while WP is usually judged in terms on its encyclopedic content (that is from non-editorial utility), not enough attention has been paid to the value of editorial utility. WP has value from an editorial perspective because it is praxis, theory in practice. Here, theories of knowledge production, electronic community, difference, and privilege play out in the most interesting ways. If nothing else, WP is a great petri dish for online communication. In this sense, we do not give WP enough credit for the social experiment that it is. There are a number of ways WP can be used as a tool in academic discourses. While I think it is reasonable and responsible for teachers to disqualify WP as a reliable source, it is irresponsible for teachers to categorically dismiss WP as an educational tool. Phyesalis (talk) 15:48, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

"more productive than the first 3 pages on Google"?? - Misplaced Pages IS the first 3 pages on Google! All other points taken as written. :) Franamax (talk) 16:04, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

WP is definitely an educational tool for all the reason cited above... just let me add one other as a teacher of English in a foreign country (Mexico)... nothing gets my students more riled up and ready to write than showing them a page about their country poorly written. Music of Mexico has been edited a billion times but STILL when my students critique it, they got a ton of criticisms. But it serves as a great motivator, most of my students wish that the world knew Mexico better than it does (e.g. they dont all wear sombreros and drink tequila under a cactus all day!) so I tell them here is their chance to DO something! I think other English as a foreign language teachers in other countries should consider having their students write in WP, even if it is just about their hometowns. This benefits WP too, as these students have access to information and able to write about things the average native English speaker could never have or do.Thelmadatter (talk) 19:15, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I would like to agree that Misplaced Pages is a good place to begin a search for information. Beyond that, however, the "Did you know?" and "Random Article" features, along with the internal links, make it an enjoyable place just to visit and find out some new things. Kudos! Hal peridol (talk) 19:28, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Google vs Misplaced Pages

Hi Jimbo. Do you know the last creation by Google? I refer to Knol. Can this be the Google's response to Wikia Search? I want to assume good faith by Google, but... ;). Cheers. --Emijrp (talk) 20:04, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

If Google thinks they can create something superior to Misplaced Pages, good luck to them! That's the nature of the project. If our existance inspired a project better than Misplaced Pages at dispersing free knowledge, then we've succeeded in our goal, which is at the end of the day to make human knowledge accessible to all, whether it be through Misplaced Pages or not. I think it's going to be an interesting project to follow. --Deskana (talk) 23:13, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Well I guess nothing like a challenge, and yeah I had read this too. I thought the industry commentator Nicholas Carr was spot on. Thanks, SqueakBox 21:54, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

There's nothing like a good old spot of rivalry now is there? Knol vs. Misplaced Pages. How exciting! Lradrama 18:16, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Two suggestions

1) To decrease vandalism: I was wondering why WP is allowing everyone to edit user pages. Vandals are mainly targeting user pages. So if you make it mandatory that users with a specific editing history/time registered only are able to edit user’s pages (& talk pages). Recently I saw an admin's user page that “This user identifies as gay” userbox on the top list. I was little frustrated though it can be true. When I checked the same page next time, it was removed and I knew that was vandalism. So, if you altered it to what I mentioned, I think it may produce with productive results.

If Misplaced Pages blocks other users from editing another person's user page, then it would be hard to edit spelling mistakes. However, it is a good idea that the user has the sole privilege to edit his own user page. All in favor? --Marianian (talk) 12:02, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

There are many bots operating, that helps AutoCorrect spelling. --Avinesh Jose (talk) 05:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

2) To make it more user friendly: All external links should open in a different window. As per existing program it is redirecting to the same window, which I feel not a good work. How do you think? --Avinesh Jose (talk) 09:45, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with both proposals. They're good ideas, especially the first one. Look at the state of my userpage history, due to high vandalism rates. It doesn't really bother me that much, because some kind users always turn up and mend it for me if I don't notice. But every little helps! (Just be careful about how you word that bit about gay users...it kind of sounds like seeing a user with a gay identification userbox on his page frustrates you.) ;-) Lradrama 12:17, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

There are legitimate reasons why someone would want to edit someone else's user page - updating migrated userboxes, removing inappropriate content (copyright violations, fair use images, spam etc), some users are quite happy with other people editing their user page - so there would need to be some provision for allowing people to edit other people's user pages if this scheme is to work. Hut 8.5 17:35, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, what I meant was make the program such a way that only established users/admins/ users with specific time registered are only allowed to edit user pages in order to prevent vandalism. Because it is true that many vandals are using it through anonymous IP address / newly created user id. In my opinion, that should not allow. If a new user had come across any illegal/CopyVio text in anonther user’s page, they can immediately notice that to their (admins) attention, instead of them editing it-if this alteration is to work. --Avinesh Jose (talk) 05:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Vandals mainly target user pages? Simply not true, the great majority of vandalism is to the main space. Thanks, SqueakBox 18:22, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I am just saying user page is one of the main targets for vandals along with main space. Most user page vandalism occurs in retaliation for a contributor's efforts to deal with vandalism and are the main victims by personal attacks, abusive comments etc. If you (Jimmy) alter the program according what I suggested, don’t you think it as a good idea of putting a stop to vandals? --Avinesh Jose (talk) 05:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Agree on second proposition, but this is not at all the place to propose it. Joshdboz (talk) 17:42, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Then tell me where can I post it? I think Jimmy is not interested in my proposal?--Avinesh Jose (talk) 11:27, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

WP:VPR. Hut 8.5 18:33, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I cited a link to here from WP:VPR. --Avinesh Jose (talk) 04:39, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I do agree that while its easy to remain dispassionate about main space vandalism that people do get affected by having their user pages used by trolls in order to make deeply offensive personal attacks. Thanks, SqueakBox 17:46, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Registered users can choose to make external links open in a new window at Gadgets in Special:Preferences. I think it should remian off as default. PrimeHunter (talk) 04:54, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh, excellent! I was suggesting to people pushing 'EL's open in a new window' that they request it as an optional feature; I didn't know it was already built into the interface. I agree with you that it should remain off unless deliberately turned on, as that is the way that html links work by default. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:19, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion

Hi, Mr.Wales/any one monitering this page. I have a suggestion which I belive would seriously help out with the duties on Misplaced Pages (I posted this here because I do not know where else to post it). Basiccly, What I'm suggesting is the following:

(only) Segments of text being Protected

What I'm trying to say is this:

You know on say the main page, you can copy the source code but you cannot edit (it's grey and won't accept any text) well, I think Admins should be able to block specific segments of text, e.g the header of the sandox, or say in an edit war, instead of protecting that page, an admin could protect the information that people are conflicting about so people are free to edit the rest of an article without having to request it on the article's talk page.

So, if admins had the privleges to do this, it could lessen out the duties (e.g restoring the sandbox header) so users can concentrate on other things.

For anyone who is reading this- Please don't steal my idea!

thanks, cf38 22:08, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Um... try one of the WP:Village pump's? LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:21, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

So what you're saying is that it should be possible to protect a part of Misplaced Pages's main page, while some other parts of that main page should be editable by anyone, say (for example) the "selected anniversaries" section. That's how it is done today. Someone stole your idea before you had it. It uses transclusion of non-protected pages as a technique to implement it. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:35, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

No, I used the main page as an example. I mean things such as the sandbox header could be protected, so users would'nt keep having to reset it. cf38 15:20, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Hard to implement text protection. If you protect, say, paragraph 2, I can add the BS to paragraph 1 or create a new paragraph with BS. Brusegadi (talk) 23:51, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

The Sandbox header is reset automatically by a bot. –Pomte 10:59, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Change to introduction

I was reverted in making the following change, so I thought I'd bring it up on the talk page before making the change again. What do you think of changing the relevant section to:

Wikia is a completely separate organization according to the IRS; though in reality I fund a lot of travel for Wikia using Wikimedia Foundation funds, so thanks for donating! Wikia is working on a search engine project unrelated to Misplaced Pages and the Wikimedia Foundation.

Yes? No? Thanks. 151.200.26.18 (talk) 07:43, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I use no Wikimedia Foundation funds for travel. I even pay my own travel to board meetings and the like. Nice job of trolling, though.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:37, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Strong No. It's another example of where some critics of Wikia/Wikimedia entanglement "think small". The key issue is not about travel funding, or even chump-change like speaker's fees. I think making it about trivia just sets up a straw-man that's counter-productive to the topic. -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 14:29, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

You, on the other hand appear to imagine a cult based on evidence that consists of unpaid people around the world promoting and creating free culture in a variety of forms including interacting in a fun multiple player web-based role-playing game that interestingly has as a byproduct an amazingly large and useful collection of claims and references organized in the form of an online free-of-charge and copyleft encyclopedia. Seth, there is no cult. There exists at Misplaced Pages the normal range of behaviors you get in any online community. You and some others focus on some aspects and get a distorted image. Click "Recent changes" and observe an unbiased sample of what actually happens at Misplaced Pages. Some people (like me) are here because we like writing an encyclopedia in the same way others like bowling or gardening. Others are here for other purposes and the charge for being allowed to play the game is to help make wikipedia a better encyclopedia. It is like getting your fence painted by allowing only those who help to paint it play in the baseball game being played within the fence. Those who, like Jon Awbrey, complain loudly that the rules are not being followed are clearly ignoring the rule that you can ignore any rule so long as doing so helps the fence get painted. WAS 4.250 (talk) 17:51, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'd put it more like based on evidence of cult behavior, including everything from a charismatic leader, messianic motivations, demagoguery, and yes, a few top people aiming to make millions of dollars off the unpaid labor of everyone else while proclaiming that it's "fun". It's a mild cult in the grand scheme of things, not the worst, but I think further along that axis than is comfortable. Even in the very worst apocalyptic cults, there's day-to-day life. Someone has to take out the garbage from the cult's compound, do the laundry, deal with paying bills, go shopping, etc. If you look at the daily activity, they would say "We're not a cult, we're a community". Anyway, I try not to go on too much about this on Jimbo's talk page. There's WP:ALPHABETSOUP, and the block button if I say some things I think, plus it's a very tough audience to convince indeed ("There is no Santa Claus!" :-)). But I believe some of the people who bait him on this topic are really off-base, and I don't think I'll get in (much) trouble for saying that. -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 19:21, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Seth, you have missed the whole point. This is not a community or a cult, the community idea is a fallacy invented by God knows who - probably Jimbo. For the most part "the community" is a few hundred people writing on subjects about which they are passionate. They range from university professors to just mere "anoraks" who devour every written word on a chosen subject. Believe me I know this for a fact. They are "here" for the simple pleasure and hobby of writing and discussing their chosen interests. Every now and again those dedicated few fall out with each other over an angle in which the content is presented. Now this is where the equation becomes interesting.

There is an even greater army of those who have joined "the community" simply because they enjoy legislating and policing. Some are sincere (NewYorkBrad springs to mind) others are here because they like to throw their weight around and imagine they have the ear of Jimbo Wales. Indeed some of them do appear to have that ear, and that ear seems to enjoy the flattery it listens to. This is where the cult scenario arises, it is these people who have been shown a minuscule window for power by Jimbo's project that see him as the charismatic messianic leader - what else have they got? as for the rest - the worker ants - they just suck their teeth and email knowingly to each other and eventually drift off. No one protests too hard about the situation for fear of being banned (they enjoy writing here). Jimbo needs to wake up, if he wants to- that is! His posturing and frankly very stupid comments to me "the harm you have done...etc." may have thrilled his confidantes but look at the votes they gave me, and he would do well to look at the names of those votes as well as the quantity. It would be impossible for me to be on the present Arbcom I would be frozen out and impotent. However, if Jimbo does not start to listen to those doing the writing soon the project will undoubtedly deteriorate, it won't fail because there is always someone new, and the police force will grow even larger. Is that what Misplaced Pages is about? There are some here who want to be in a cult, with their seeking out of socks and traitors, but the backbone of the encyclopedia feel those people are a joke, sadly if he is not careful Jimbo will fall into that category too. He needs to shut these people up and listen to those who want what is best for the project rather than their egos. Giano (talk) 21:08, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I fail to see how Carolyn Doran's legal history bolsters this cult hypothesis. We're talking about an organization that has a dozen employees and an annual operating budget of $4 million. It's commonplace for a nonprofit of that scale to hire temp labor, and to trust the diligence of the placement agency's background check, and to inflate job titles a little because the salaries probably aren't fantastic. Ms. Doran worked for the Foundation for less than a year. The only reason she is newsworthy is because this relates to Misplaced Pages. Actual cults seldom produce material of interest to any broader audience than their own insular membership, but this small nonprofit has generated the eighth most popular website in the world. One of its basic missions is to provide every human being on the planet with a 💕 of 50,000 words in his or her native language. The Foundation's progress toward that goal has been entirely out of proportion to its actual size. Arguably, that makes WMF the the opposite of a cult: a particularly effective nonprofit. Durova 20:13, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I lost you somewhere. First, I didn't say anything about Carolyn Doran in any of the above. If you ask, I'd say the cult aspect comes in the aftermath, where people are supposed to suspend basic skepticism because it's against the tenets of behavior - something which is always a big red flag to me. And the guy who said "IOW, I don't care if she shot her boyfriend, and killed somebody while driving drunk. It's editorial abuse that pisses me off!", well, I hope that was tongue-in-cheek, otherwise it's a howler. Again, I think you're only looking to the worst cults. You're probably unfamiliar with Spiritualism, for example. And lot of 1960's-era communes produced interesting material, though it's out of fashion now. I keep wanting to ask Jimbo if he's ever read "The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test", I'll take this chance to work it into the conversation. Basically what happened with Misplaced Pages was that a quirk in Google's algorithm enormously amplified a pathological pattern. But it's not something that's more than a new twist on some very old tricks. -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 21:15, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you didn't. The incident did function as a springboard, though, and I'm unsure why. And I can't quite agree that that Misplaced Pages's popularity is inherently pathological. At any rate, events play out in a way that proves you correct, then somebody else will get this concept right and put the GDFL content to better use elsewhere. Durova 21:26, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Uprising of the righteous in de.wikipedia.org

Dear Jimbo, I'd like to draw your attention to a call for vandalism in the German speaking Misplaced Pages made by established users. This group wants to censor vector graphics of NS symbols so that (dumb) Neo-Nazis could not make use of our high quality images. Please speak out against this plan.

It is a heated debate which lead to an admin blocking me for two hours for stating my opinion. When I complained about it other admins affirmed that I had not violated the rules and therefore the block was unjust. For answering the question what I think why I was blocked I have been blocked for additional 24 hours (“NPA”). Some have argued that my points were legitimate and my block should be revoked but no one did—who would dare to defend a “swastika lover”?

As I understand your statement of principles you agree with me that Misplaced Pages is an open project and no one should be excluded on the grounds of group membership. This means every imaginable group is generally welcomed at Misplaced Pages: Neo-Nazis, misogynists, child molesters etc. This consideration makes one not feel comfortable but it is the truth: all these groups are already readers and Wikipedians. Neither our license nor our five pillars forbid those groups the use and participation. I ask you to publicly admit this fact and elaborate your rationale behind these terms and conditions. --mms (talk) 12:59, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Do you really think Jimbo would meddle into de. Admin decisions? He would be not clever to do so, and I do think that he is clever.

And do you really think that the people reading your statement here are interested in such internal affairs? --d2dMiles (talk) 13:25, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Congratulations, Jimbo! You have been selected being unser Führer of German WP :-( Seriuosly! sorry, but not kidding. And he is not blocked yet. Misplaced Pages, erwache! --195.4.209.76 (talk) 16:37, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Führer? Gott im Himmel... Allow me to propose a quote from William Tecumseh Sherman. When he learned that there was a movement to make him president of the United States, he answered I will not accept if nominated and will not serve if elected. Durova 18:15, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Nothing to führ äh fear, mms just told on de:WP:FZW, our Village Pump, that he loves Swastikas. In my opinion is this in Germany and Austria not quite OK and a prosecutor would propably be quite interested, albeit our servers are not located in Germany. Leave mms alone, standing near persons playing russian roulette can hurt bystanders too. Achates (talk) 19:57, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Please no personal attacks. We are in en.wikipedia.org here. No one is interested whether you think it is “quite okay” to love swastikas or not. But I’m still very interested what Jimbo thinks about writing Misplaced Pages for the benefit of Neo-Nazis and the like. --mms (talk) 20:19, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

(outdent) I've just read that thread and I don't see either side professing a fondness for swastikas. It's poor form to make these insinuations, particularly in a venue where most people are unable to read the original. It's a discussion between two sets of reasonable people that has deteriorated from sarcasm to animosity on a topic that would be sensitive in any language, but nowhere more so than in German. Each language edition creates its own consensus policies. Here in English we retain all material of encyclopedic value, regardless of its potential to give offense, and the community manages the occasional individuals attempt to exploit sensitive images for shock value. It isn't for us to dictate our solutions to other languages. Yet I do suggest you refrain from using polarizing tactics. Durova 20:39, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

So after you read the discussion you came to the conclusion that there are no devoted swastika lovers or real Neo-Nazis involved. This may be true but it doesn’t mean there is no issue. What would you do if there were Neo-Nazis? I understand that my request for clarification of the principles is way out of the day to day business and you may need some time to decide how far free “free” means. But I have to be emphatic about it as this is crucial to my further participation. Maybe you, Jimbo, and the majority speak out against Neo-Nazis in Misplaced Pages and maybe against some other groups, too. I’m sceptical to exclusions of all kinds but I believe a community should set up its own rules. If it is consensus (or nearly consensus) to exclude some groups I suggest to rewrite the principles and amend the license accordingly. I have been blocked for a year in the German speaking Misplaced Pages for a deduction from the main principles: we write articles and redraw images to support Neo-Nazis. --mms (talk) 13:44, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Since this is the English language Misplaced Pages, please refer to two policies: WP:POINT and WP:NOT#Not a battleground. Your yearlong block on the German Misplaced Pages does not extend to this language edition, although it may be noted if serious questions arise about your conduct here. I hope you adjust well. In the best of all worlds, perhaps good work at this project will earn you an early return to the German Misplaced Pages. I do advise against using inflammatory symbols in userboxes here. Our mission is to create an online encyclopedia, not to test the boundaries of anarchy or free speech. Durova 22:05, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Mms, do you think, if you compare Jimbo with Adolf Hitler, he would help you? “unser Führer”, isn't it a little bit awkward? -- 87.165.144.7 (talk) 12:02, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Referring to Jimbo as our “Führer” was my reaction to the insinuations against me. Jimbo calls himself leader which is a literal translation to Führer. So I see no obstacles why he should not answer my question. --mms (talk) 13:26, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you

		What a Brilliant Idea Barnstar
		To Jimmy Wales, for having a Misplaced Pages account in your name. Susanlesch (talk) 16:33, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for the spam but I am fresh out of ideas. I read somewhere you don't like user boxes but I hope you like barnstars. I hope someday to achieve a Wikimedia Ambassador barnstar. Good luck. -Susanlesch (talk) 16:33, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Companies and Blogs getting listed on External Links - but not mine.

Hi Jimbo Wales,

I'd like to know how some companies and blogs (yes blogs) are allowed to be posted on External links and others are not. I'll send you hundreds of examples if you like.

I have tried to add a link to my blog/information page about living off the grid and I have been blocked from Misplaced Pages for ever. Mind you I tried to add links to about a dozen other blogs - (geothermal, global warming, energy medicine, Moon landing, wind power) where I have noticed that others were listed/accepted.

These are "current news" and information sites that are updated daily. This information is unbiased and useful to wikipedians who cannot find relevant current/news/information on Misplaced Pages. Also - I tried to link to a single Christmas Wikia. And was banned for life.

oh well -tough crowd - but also not uniform in its policies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.103.167.20 (talk) 19:17, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, WikiProject Spam makes some decisions like this (that have inconvenienced me enough to wonder about why my username is a spammer log). But I am not an expert on the problems you have. Another thing that can happen is a bot gone bonkers (for example, although they are well meaning an author may find him or herself inconveniencing a number of users). Sorry for the comment. -Susanlesch (talk) 20:37, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Biographies of living persons

Hello Mr. Wales, (and everyone else :) ), I don't like having to come here with a question about such a basic principle of editing Misplaced Pages. However the community as a whole seems to be confused, so I'm wondering what you had intended in the first place.

Barbara Schwarz is someone you may have already heard about, but in case you haven't I'll sum up the contention as concisely as possible since I realize you are probably very busy. To be blunt, Ms Schwarz has serious issues with reality, but has done some very notable things. In pursuit of information she believes is being held by various departments/agencies of several states, and even the federal government, she has filed more FOIA requests than anyone else in the act's history. Making her more notable is the fact that she then chose to pro se sue many of those agencies, and even specific employees by the hundreds when they were unable to find what she was looking for. In the process she was heard by the Supreme Court and her story was reported in the Salt Lake Tribune around 2003. She then sued the paper despite the fact she was not misrepresented and the paper was merely reporting both sides of her story. Needless to say she didn't like her article here either, Category:Suspected Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of The real Barbara Schwarz and has been trying to have it removed with some support by other Wikipedians. In general the community seemed to understand the notability of her court actions when such discussions came up:Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Barbara Schwarz - Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Barbara Schwarz (2nd nomination) - Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Barbara Schwarz (3rd nomination) - Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Barbara Schwarz (4th nomination).

When I asked myself if this article was worthy of inclusion on Misplaced Pages, and thus worthy of my time, I compared Ms Schwarz to others who have done notable things while not in touch with reality. Would the Sylvia Seegrist or Laurie Dann artcles be removed if Sylvia or Dann's family asked? I answered no, because their actions were notable enough for inclusion in reliable secondary sources. Even though Ms Schwarz hasn't killed anyone, she has made herself notable by her actions in court.

I'd like to know what your (and anyone else's here) opinion on Schwarz and our biographies of living people policy, are they compatible? (Just to be clear, I don't plan on going around saying "This is what Jimbo said...", rather just want to know if you intended such articles to exist or not so I know if I've been wrong. I'm also not asking for any intervention.) Thank you, Anynobody 01:53, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

DRV at Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2007 December 19#Barbara Schwarz. Cool Hand Luke 02:29, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I think she is clearly non-notable and that the DRV came to the right conclusion. I also think that reasonable people can differ, and indeed in the DRV discussion I see some very sane voices arguing for a "keep". I don't agree with them, but that's ok: it is not up to me to decide deletion debates, of course. To me it looks like the process worked fine. I normally prefer that the process work fine, and reach a decision I don't agree with from time to time, than to have a broken process.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:22, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate your time, thanks very much and enjoy the holidays :) Anynobody 02:44, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Victoria and Albert Museum

I thought it would make a pleasant change to have some good news on this page! An editor from the Victoria and Albert Museum (V&A) has been editing as User:VAwebteam, initially adding links which were reverted and images which were being deleted. They readily co-operated with established editors when approached about suitable additions. I left them an explanation of exactly how GFDL works. This has had a great result with some fine images uploaded (and some deleted ones re-uploaded) under GFDL from the museum's collection. This is a useful precedent for anyone to approach other institutions. Is this the first time a major museum has contributed in this way? Tyrenius (talk) 03:04, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

It would be great if the images were moved to Commons. Miranda 04:57, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Latest Metz/Register article

Cade Metz recently wrote a reasoned opinion piece on the inherent conflict in Misplaced Pages between anonymity and COI . Which do you think should have priority as Misplaced Pages moves forward, COI or anonymity? Also, just one more question...you said that you had only a few hours notice before the Doran article came out in the Register...Did Cade request that you contact him a couple of days before the Doran article was released, and, if so, what was your response? Cla68 (talk) 11:39, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

My response was that I don't speak to the Register. I guess you know that since you were cc'd on the email.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:19, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

While I think The Register needs a new hobby, there is a good question above; "Which do you think should have priority as Misplaced Pages moves forward, COI or anonymity?". I would like to hear your views on this, if possible. Thanks! - Rjd0060 (talk) 23:46, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I think both COI and anonymity take a backseat to NPOV. Sometimes anonymity helps us to preserve NPOV, sometimes not. We do not have a hard and fast rule against COI editing, but rather some soft recommendations mostly designed to help people who may have COIs understand that they risk doing damage to the very cause they are seeking to advance, if they behave inappropriately at Misplaced Pages. In general, I think that anonymity... the right of people to edit as either ip numbers or as usernames without validating who they are... is not just valuable but incredibly valuable, and I would oppose any moves to get rid of it very firmly.

I don't think Cade Metz' piece is a reasoned criticism, really, but just typical of him. He starts with a falsehood: "In Wikiland, you aren't allowed to edit articles where you have a conflict of interest" and goes downhill from there. Nuance is not the forte of The Register.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:41, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Jimbo for that. Needless to say, I completely agree that NPOV takes charge in those possible COI situations. Happy Holidays! - Rjd0060 (talk) 15:56, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

While the Register is respected in the UK, with good reason, I really do think that article was scraping the bottom of the barrel. Our assuming good faith policy should cover this, after all which similar enterprise (My Space and Facebook come to mind) assume bad faith of users who aren't engaging in suspiciously illegal acts (and COI ain't that). We already allow usersx not to be anonymous and otherwise we should assume good faith. Thanks, SqueakBox 16:38, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Are you saying AGF on the Registers' part? I dont think AGF applies externally. - Rjd0060 (talk) 16:49, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

No, not at all, I am saying we at wikipedia must assume good faith in our editors, regardless of whether they are anonymous, as long as we believe they are not engaging in illegal activities on wikipedia. Which would destroy the Metz argument that we should somehow assume bad faith of some of our anonymous editors, based on COI. Thanks, SqueakBox 17:03, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

(outdent) I think dislike for the sources, and insularity, is causing a dismissal of a deep structural issue - WP:AGF doesn't resolve the problem that anonymity and conflict-of-interest is an open invitation for a lot of bad-faith editing. Whenever this discussion comes up, I see replies I'd characterize as that, in theory, in a perfect world with perfect people, there should be no problems because Misplaced Pages policies say everyone should play nice. However, it's an imperfect world, with imperfect people, and many of them play very nasty indeed. You can't escape this issue by saying it's against policy, because the policies are applied by people, and thus there's an incentive to game the system. Outsiders keep writing about this in various ways, because it's very obvious to anyone who looks into what goes on in terms of real conflict-resolution. -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 20:36, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Seasons greetings

Seasons Greetings Jimbo Wales Happy New Year !

Take a look

Please,look at Horton, Alabama and tell me if it is any good at my talk. 1Bookfan Talk

Hallo!

Hallo,herr Jakob.

Jes,spreche auf Deusch.Verrlassen Sie mich eine Nachritch an Ein Buchanhanger Rede .

Auf Wiedersehen und gluckliche Feiertage! Ein Buchanhanger

@L-drama : if Jimbo's invitation on German Misplaced Pages to come to this page for comments is written in German, then sort it out with Jimbo if you want to have comments in German deleted from this page. Currently, Misplaced Pages:Talk page guidelines#Good practice only mandates that you ask for a translation, not that you erase a comment in a different language. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:22, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

It might be worth knowing that I am NOT German, and thus couldn't make sense of what you were trying to show me in the slightest. If you'd done as I asked, and discussed it with me on my talkpage, we might have got a bit further in understanding each other. (Sorry about this BTW Jimbo). Lradrama 13:42, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Er, you already know you can't go around to anyone else's user talk page and just delete non-English conversation, right? Well you can't do it here either, even if it might seem more "public" than most user talk pages. Nigel Barristoat (talk) 14:03, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for the inconvenience. I think I need a Wikibreak... Lradrama 14:07, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Particularly since I can read German (though barely and badly), I would appreciate if German language comments are left here. Also, since I try to stay in contact with all language communities and offer my assistance in the event of internal disputes, I would appreciate if no comments ever be deleted from here on language-grounds alone.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:36, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. Thanks, SqueakBox 16:55, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

And from that last exchange, you can guess why it's probably a good thing that JFK gave that speech in Berlin and not Vienna... Season's greetings. SBHarris 18:06, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Well once again, I'm very sorry, my mistake. It will not happen again. ;-) Lradrama 18:28, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

hi there

ok well this is like my last attempt to try to talk to someone here... ...i have been banned as a user for some time now (User:Iamandrewrice), having been said to have many sockpuppets. However, this is not true, as another user (User:Joeseth1992) pretended to be me and hacked my account, making sockpuppets himself, and then leading to a phenomenon in which even though I was trying to explain my situation to fellow wikipedians, no one would listen, as they all thought that I was lying and that all the sockpuppets were mine, even though they had nothing to do with me. I really want to help edit the site, and it would really make me smile this xmas if you allowed me once again to operate here. I would very much appreciate it if the other users could be informed that many of the messages that they have read and received that they believe to be me, were in fact from another user who was impersonating me. (I know this user in real life by the way). Please please please try and help me out... if you would like a full detailed step-by-step explanation of everything that has happened, I can email it to you, but it is quite long. Well whatever you decide, please email me here on benniguy@hotmail.co.uk

Thanks a lot... and have a nice xmas

89.241.196.68 (talk) 13:31, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

87 Socks huh? How many wasted man-hours wasted is that..? In the spirit of both naiveté and the holiday (God, admins, and WP:BEANS forgive me for this), why don't you create a new account and edit constructively and anonymously, leaving the past behind you (the incivility, disruptiveness, socking etc...). In any case, I can almost guarantee you that neither your main or the various sockpuppets will ever be unblocked. —Cronholm 18:37, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

You were community banned Ben. Your attempt earlier this week to discuss this resulted in yet another round of sockpuppetry that forced Misplaced Pages to block nearly 200.000 IP's in 3 separate rangeblocks for 3 hours. If you want to appeal your ban then talk to Jeff about it. ArbCom is the way to do this, Jimbo doesn't normally respond here himself. This started as a simple 1 hour cool down block, you escalated this yourself. Merry Christmas Ben - I really hope that you willl somehow be able to return at some point in the future and continue the fine progress you made before this happened. EconomicsGuy (talk) 19:00, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh, well those sockpuppets werent me though. ALthough they were someone I know in real life (apart from about 50 or so accounts that i dont even know who they are that you identified with me). But I really am sorry for being rude originally, but I really would like to continue editing. Can you please allow me to? Because if I make a new account... everyone will blcok me straight away... do I have permission to start a new account then? thanks 89.243.4.19 (talk) 20:18, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

oh by the way, the user who i know in real life (who made all the other accounts, pretending to be me) has got other other accounts, and will probably continue to pretend to be me, as he wont listen to me... please dont believe that they are me :S

89.243.4.19 (talk) 20:32, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Dude, you are a genius.

Thank you so much for founding Misplaced Pages. I don't know what I'd do without it. If I need info, I always come here first. Wiki rules! A pyrate's life for me... (talk) 16:21, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Guten Tag!

Guten Tag, mein Herr. Wie geht's? Ich liebe Deustch!!!!! Translation: Hello, sir. How's it going? I love German!!!!! Good luck learning the language. I've been taking classes for two years, myself. Awesome language.

Froliche Weinachten und ein gluckes neues Jahr!!!!

Ichliebezuko (talk) has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling at someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Happy editing!
Smile at others by adding {{subst:Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

Ichliebezuko (talk) 16:28, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Don't worry people, I'm leaving this German text well and truly alone! ;-) Lradrama 20:19, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Translating

Hi Jimbo! If you need help for understanding german messages or if you want to understand german Misplaced Pages articles, etc., I´d be glad to help you! Whenever you want Dagadt (talk) 16:30, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Hello, Jimbo

What are the patrolers, Stewards, Board vote admins, developers and imports of Misplaced Pages? And another question also: do you have some special things only you, with your "founder" status, can do? ----Yours, User:Deba Tihs ´n´ Mad Dog (right place to talk to me is here) 18:12, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:User access levels. patrolled edits are disabled on the English Misplaced Pages but we can patrol new pages. Jimbo Wales has the founder privilege. Graham87 06:13, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

JzG

Jimbo, please have a word with JzG. This is a complete misrepresentation of the history of Awbrey's edits and concerns. Admins should show greater respect for the truth, for the content-editors that create Misplaced Pages content, and for the moral and legal aspects of plagiarism and copyright. JzG has been treating Awbrey like enemy number one and this is merely his latest personal attack. When will we as a community tell admins that insist on creating and angering enemies to stop it? This is just poisonous. We should be better than WR, not imitate them. Further, it hurts the encyclopedia when people delete content just because the person who wrote it is now disruptive. There was no issue with Awbrey's article content on math/logic articles until after he was justly banned and then decided to act as disruptively as possible. Finally, when an admin gets to the point that he literally says he would rather "we be sued"; I think he needs to step away from the computer and take a nice bike ride in the park. WAS 4.250 (talk) 23:41, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

But no banned editor has the right to edit here? Or are you claiming they do? In which case you should not DO SO. Defending some banned troll and in the process attacking of our most respected admins isnt right. What is going on, WAS? Normally you behave impeccably but this looks like trolling to me. Thanks, SqueakBox 23:44, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

In this case, I am solely referring to edits to logic/math articles that Awbrey made prior to being justly banned. He was not banned for any edit that he made to math/logic articles. He was banned for being disruptive in non-article space. WAS 4.250 (talk) 23:48, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

As for "what is going on": the short story is that Awbrey is angry at Guy and Guy is angry at Awbrey and the result is not helpful to Misplaced Pages. WAS 4.250 (talk) 23:55, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

The campaign against Misplaced Pages Review seems to be growing more and more bizarre by the day. Last month the community got dragged through sockpuppet-hunting paranoia a la User:!!; are we now to the point that a user an administrator here is trying to erase the contribution history of a person who participates there? Give me a break. Videmus Omnia 23:56, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

I think we all need a break. - "our most respected admins" I love it! Giano (talk) 00:09, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

He clearly is, and I am taking my work break from today. Thanks, SqueakBox 00:10, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I would have to say that characterizing Guy as one of our "most respected admins" is an unsupported claim, though you're certainly entitled to your opinion. In my interactions with him, I've found him to be abrasive, confrontational, and dismissive. Videmus Omnia 16:46, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I have not reviewed the entire history but I can state some general principles which might be helpful here. First, when someone is banned from Misplaced Pages, their prior edits unless somehow bad can surely be allowed to stand in the general case, although there can be special cases. (For example, if a stalker has written an article about his victim, it can be best after the stalker is banned to simply delete that article and start over from scratch, as a courtesy to the victim.) At first glance, though, the debate JzG is commenting on does not seem to be about deleting content just because the person who wrote it is now disruptive, is it? It is some kind of argument about merging/moving content?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:39, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

<<<Jon Awbrey spent something like a year faithfully contributing to Misplaced Pages based on his widely acknowledged expertise in Charles Peirce and his work, a very important figure in the history of logic. That expertise made his contributions to logic/math articles to be beyond reproach to people who knew the subject (although readability by non-experts was and is an issue). But he ran into trouble on articles like Truth where he had to edit with people who could not understand his specialized expert vocabulary and Jon was poorly equipped to fully appreciate WP:NPOV leading to charges of breaking WP:NOR leading him to go to the policy talk page at WP:NOR where he was abused and misinformed by that page's owners; leading to a dramatic self-destruction wherein he began to disrupt Misplaced Pages as much as possible and continues to do so (I tried to help, but he was having none of it, his mind was made up). This latest battle in Jon's war of honor is described by Jon (aka Jonny Cache) here. Especially relevant is this quote:"The crux of the matter is this. I contributed content to Misplaced Pages that to this day adds to the credibility of Misplaced Pages. Nobody but nobody has the right to use that credibility to discredit me. If Guy Chapman can get away with asserting unchecked lies on the Wikienlist and on Misplaced Pages and no one in that so-called community calls him on it, then Misplaced Pages as a whole has forfeited the right to continue using those contributions." I love logic and do not wish to allow Guy to create a situation where Misplaced Pages's logic articles are eviscerated just because Guy is angry at Jon. Jon does not want the articles deleted, he just wants Guy to cease defaming him by claiming his contributions were "original research". Guy has used this fight as an excuse to remove information and redirect and wipe Jon's attribution from the records. There is no reason for all this removal and redirection in the first place except for Guy defaming Jon and causing this stupid fight. Let's put the content of the encyclopedia ahead of the emotional satisfaction of "winning" against enemies. WAS 4.250 (talk) 16:29, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

The user in question did not, in fact, have the expertise that you seem to be assuming for him, and the problems he encountered on Truth were perhaps not because the other editors didn't understand the specialist vocabulary, but because they did understand it.

The importance of our content policies lies in the fact that, when someone arrives claiming to be an expert, we don't have to worry about whether they're telling the truth. What we ask of all editors (expert and non-expert alike) is that they rely on the best secondary sources they can find. This is something that real experts will be able to do, because they'll have read the secondary literature. You'll know the real experts by their edits, because they'll be able to tell us what other experts think about the subject, not only what they think about it themselves. That is something Jon Awbrey could never do.

Take this edit as an example of the problems in the Truth article (I don't know whether he wrote it originally, or just moved it from elsewhere, but regardless, he's the one who added it to Truth). Kant is here used as an example of a philosopher discussing the correspondence theory of truth. But Kant didn't discuss the correspondence theory of truth. He may have assumed the validity of it, as did most philosophers, but it's misleading to say that he wrote about it, and then to cherry pick a quote of his to back that up. Kant is an example of a writer so difficult to understand that primary-source analysis is bound to come a cropper, because even experts — people who've been studying him all their lives — disagree about what he meant in various places.

The best thing now would be to find a specialist Wikipedian to review Awbrey's material, but that will take some time, as people who understand this stuff are few and far between, and they have their own articles to work on. In the meantime, regarding any of his material that's based on primary sources (and my memory of the stuff of his I saw is that it was always based on primary sources), it's probably safe to assume it's original research for which a secondary source might be hard to find. SlimVirgin 20:25, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Request for Jimbo

Dear Jimbo,

Please Let Us Update Special:Ancientpages. 09:23, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you.

Carolyn Bothwell Doran

Most businesses have personnel worries like this but don't have AP articles written about them. Gwen Gale (talk) 11:33, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes. David Gerard has a nice way of putting it. When filling out a form, do we check the >100,000 box or the <10 box? What he means when he says that is that we are simultaneously a small nonprofit organization, quite non-notable in terms of the overall size of the organization, and also a top 10 website with a huge media profile. There is no excuse for the Wikimedia Foundation having hired someone like Carolyn Doran; it was a major misstep for the organization without a doubt. But as you note, and especially since as far as we know, no money is missing, it is the sort of thing that most businesses have worries about... and it happens all the time of course that people are hired whose history is not what one might hope. For us, it ends up a major media story anyway. This just shows that going forward we have to be absurdly vigilant about such things.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:43, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

What is most annoying from a community point of view is that they don't understand the distinction between what happens on foundation level and Misplaced Pages. For the press to bad mouth Misplaced Pages because of a foundation issue is absurd beyond words. Sorry for posting this here but this has been annoying me ever since this story came out. EconomicsGuy (talk) 16:20, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source

I'd be glad to hear your opinion on the current state of Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source, proposed as a replacement for Misplaced Pages:No original research#Primary, secondary, and tertiary sources (WP:NOR's PSTS section).

Related talk (which I took at heart for improvements) at:

• Misplaced Pages talk:No original research#WP:WITS
• Misplaced Pages talk:Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:26, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

EffK charge in progress

The representative victim has suffered the degrading and humiliating treatment of being brought to a closed court called an arbitration in the United States of America by a charitable Foundation constituted in that State which adjudged that the victim acted in such intellectual dishonesty and against the clear constituted tenets and mores of that charity as to warrant silencing and loss of the currency of free expression as well as a branding as a fantasist of criminal mind and intent. The representative victim is recognisably representative of a body of international victims who have equally attempted to enter intellectual veracity into the broad spectrum of the Charities' socially constituted purpose and is to be considered as but the leading victim amongst all such group who have suffered the degrading and humiliating treatment. As the treatment was published on the World Wide Web by the Charity, the representative victim was so treated throughout all States, but specific treatment was published as fact in certain States particularly USA, Italy, Netherlands, Germany and France.

The victim throughout appealed to reason and social justice and claimed that he represented a massive but largely deceased group of victims whose suffering was of a nature as that since itemised through the Statute of Rome. The victim therefore claims the term victim as representative of this massive group.

The nature of the victim's complaint against Justice is closely intertwined with the principles of international law and has special regard to whatever nullifying tenet has been entered concerning retro-activity of criminal justice.

The representative victim suffered the treatment between 2004- 2007, and the treatment continues unabated. The nature of the treatment has combined to injure the physical health of the representative victim, and has deprived him of his human right to freedom of expression and from persecution and throughout has the victim gripped by a justifiable fear of physical retribution for making that expression which brought the closed trial and open judgement levelled against the victim. The victim considers that as he may make no free expression that he is in effect a disappeared person and thus subject to the articles of the Statute of Rome.

The representative victim engendered the treatment due to his attempt to furnish truthful information of relevance both to recent history and particularly that remembered in the Charter of the United Nations and of all current civilizing International law. The victim expresses that a tolerance or oversight or in-admission of State criminality affects the present through the continuance of a Treaty or Concordat between The Holy See/Vatican City State and the State of Germany and through the continuance of a Treaty between the Holy See/Vatican City State and the State of Italy. The chronology of these continuing Treaties thereby involves the principles of criminal retro-activity over an extended period, to at least 1929, and possibly beyond.

The victim continues to have cause to reiterate the expression of the Prosecuor of the International Military Tribunals of Nuremberg that the first mentioned Treaty was 'a manouvre intended to deceive' and to assert that the Tribunal's recognition of a 'secret un-accountable organisation' referred to The Holy See/Vatican City State. The victim asserts that he is indeed representative of a recognisable group of people who attempt to un-ravel the secret and un-accountable nature of the Vatican City State, and that he differs in only degree by virtue of a greater concentration of legal purpose.

The legal purpose that has led to the victim's treatment centres on his assertion that the Tribunals left un-answered and un-judged aspects of a criminal nature of the Vatican City State and it is his reversion of the recorded concern into the present which chiefly accounts for the treatment accorded to the victim.

The victim claims that a miscarriage of justice affects the State of Germany, the State of Italy, and the Vatican City State. The victim claims to recognise the principles of the International Court of Justice/ICC that criminal law be firstly up-held within States, and only that an abandonement of a State of its internal law requires the ICC to act.

In this regard the victim asserts that Italy as a Party State continues to fail in this regard. The Vatican City as a unique quasi-State yet possesses precise law which the victim contends is adequate to the task, but contends that both states exhibit substantial collapse or unavailability of their national justice system.

With regard to Italy the victim asserts that the continuance of the Lateran Treaty , initially of 1929, demands the proper judicial review of its continuance due to the failure and profit thereto from its other signatory Party State, The Holy See/Vatican City state of Article 24 which states:

"Article 24 In regard to the sovereignty appertaining to it also in international matters, the Holy See declares that it desires to take, and shall take, no part in any temporal rivalries between other States, nor in any international congresses called to settle such matters, save and except in the event of such parties making a mutual appeal to the pacific mission of the Holy See, the latter reserving in any event the right of exercising its moral and spiritual power.

The Vatican City shall, therefore, be invariably and in every event considered as neutral and inviolable territory."

The representative victim in part measure incurred the treament because he precisely recorded the nature of the transgression of Article 24, as definable by the Secret Annexe to the subsequent and continuing Treaty of Concordat with the State of Germany in 1933. It is widely accepted that the so called Secret Annexe of this Treaty contravened the earlier Treaty of Versailles to which Italy was State Party in regards to its Covenant that stated:

"In order to promote international co-operation and to achieve international peace and security by the acceptance of obligations not to resort to war by the prescription of open, just and honourable relations between nations by the firm establishment of the understandings of international law as the actual rule of conduct among Governments, and by the maintainance of justice and a scrupulous respect for all treaty obligations in the dealings of organised peoples with one another Agree to this Covenent of the League of Nations."

Although this Secret Annexe is historically recognised as doubly transgressing the Italian State's obligations regarding the Versailles Covenant it is the representative victim as example of a concerned yet subjugated group who incurred his most extreme treatment for stating that the Lateran Treaty's still current obligations were abandoned by the Germany/Vatican City State-Holy See Treaty of 1933. The assertion that the extant Lateran Treay would fall into disfunction strikes today at the very material existence of the quasi-State of the Holy See/Vatican City State.

The nature of the interventions by the quasi-sate party vatican City State-The Holy See in the course of aquiring material benefit through the acceptance by the ciminally defined Government of Adolf Hilter/NSDAP in 1933 Germany has equally heavily contributed to the treatment of the representative victim and the disallowance within the supposed evaluation by the Charity who levelled the treatment in print, and the extremely dangerous consequences feared from other quarters by the victim relate to his clear assertions as to this specific series of interventions from the said quasi-State within the internal affairs of Germany which resulted in on-going material favour. The assertions of history themselves cause the proscribed treatment by virtue of the victims precise reporting of the work of third parties in the relevant field that is not only un-welcome reminder to a 'secret un-accountable organiisation' but when allied to reporting its inernal judicial system inexorably leads to the imposition of that quasi-States possibly unique acceptance of retroactivity for criminal action. The victim suffers degarading and humiliating treatment because of the 'national' law by his very recording of its logical application and thereby heightens every un-consummated Nuremberg question regarding the 'secret un-accountable orgainsistaions' involvement in precisely the resulting material benefit from the Treaty.

The victim asserts throughout his treatment that the Party State Germany itself here enters into on-going questions of criminality and retro-activityand that a judicial review subsequent to the armed removal of the criminal regime purporting to be the legal Government of Germany which illegally claimed to be empowered to sign such treaty with The Vatican State-The Holy See contributes greatly to the victims treatment. The inability of the Germany Party to abrogate its concept of the legality of a Treaty which actively inculpated its dual State signatories against intenational law as defined in the Versailles Treaty makes subsequent review entirely retroactive in capacity such that the victim asserts that the present and continuing material benefit amounts to support for an international crime under the Article 6 2 f of the Convention on Transnational Organised Crime . The victim asserts that the criminal responsibility has not evaporated from present German Governmental control because the Treaty continues with the quasi-Vatican City State government who by default benefit in material terms from money laundering achieved by both Lateran and Versailles Treaty abrogations and that this benefit can only be sustained at the loss of the Lateran Treaty itself the which is contradicted. The present German government cannot claim non-retroactivity because its continued acceptance of a Treaty the which inception broke that State's part acceptance of another Treaty constitutes a crime only supported by the present Germany/Vatican City State-Holy See Treaty. It is the victims contention that Germany is in contravention of the Convention on Transnational Organised Crime, and that the criminals are the Government/representatives/employees of The Vatican City State-The Holy See and that were the amount of material substance considered whether by transferred benefit to that quasi-sate, or solely by the avoidance of cost to that quasi-State be considered from the self-supporting nature of its criminal arm in the State of Germany to be considered, then a penalty of more than 4 years imprisonment would accrue and so define the criminality.

Unlike with more recent international law recurring to and including the precepts of the Nuremberg Tribunals the recalling of the general principle of criminal law in a non-retroactivity of criminal law cannot apply as the Lateran Treaty remains in force as at 1929 and whereas non-retroactivity was accepted at Nuremberg the Versailles Treaty abrogation by Italy in its allowance of a non-compliance through the third-party co-signatory to the subsequent Lateran Treaty is asserted by the victim to require present judicial review notwithstanding the passage of years. The principle throughout international law is visibly and continuously abandoned by Italy especially that condemning Acts by the authorities of a State in violation of its obligations under a treaty which is designed to ensure international peace.

The victim in recording that equally the 1933 Germany/Vatican City State-Holy See Treaty was an abrogation of the Versailles Treaty and by recording that the Germany Treaty remains in force asserts that a retroactivity does enter judicial review and therefore asserts that should the States of Italy and Germany and the quasi- Vatican City State not enter into such judicial review that each of these States whether or not States Party to the Statute of Rome should be deemed by the International Criminal Court to exhibit substantial collapse or unavailability of each States' national justice system.

Regarding the extant Germany/Vatican City State-Holy See Treaty it is the victims assertion as to the precise illegality thus far and over many decades tolerated in the precise retro-active judicial system of the quasi-Vatican City State Party which has made of the victim subject to all variation of abuses under subsequent international law and that despite the non -State Party status of the Vatican City State the victim requests that the ICC if necessary and should the principle of proprio motu which is a variation of motu proprio not intervene that the ICC President forward the necessity for regard to the General Assembly of the United Nations

The victim records with specific notice to the ICC that the non-State Party in these matters, Vatican City State/The Holy See itself holds to retro-activity of criminal and so called Divine Law, and the victim contends that it was the most conributory cause for his degrading and humiliating treatment that he recorded the precise nature of this quasi-State's justice system with regard to retro-activity and that the very act of so doing has invloved the victim despite apparent existence of peace amongst civilised nations under very many of the provisions of the Statute of Rome.

The objective factual circumstances surrounding the concatenation of Vatican City State birth and involvement through its personnel reflective of a much larger nation or world power finally must by the victim whose injuries are only those marked byt the very inception of this sate's involvement in Germany be remarked as regards the effect of the treaty made byt it with Germany. The means and results of this intervention are lately categorised but the factual circumstances of the result of the Treaty by their embrace of the very worst inverse of civilsation, the Holocaust, and the suspiccion voiced by the victim on behalf of the massive group of earlier victims and their present varied champions can only be comprehended by recourse to present international law attempts to make of the Versailles Treaty's covenant a living reality, such that the United Nations Charter uphold mankind and prevent such civilisational collapse as defined as being 100 years of regress by the Nuremberg tribunals. The representational victim acts precisely towards and for the implementation of this Charter, and against the apparent criminal hypocrisy of an inhuman because 'divine' quasi-Sate which the victim defined as having had the most serious implication not only in past War and industrialised genocide but now suspected by him as invloved in present belligerent effect within closed diplomatic ties.

The victim in regard to the present, that is to actions and Treaty composed within the present, asserts that the quasi- State central to the treatment of innumerable groups of people, today still remains a secret un-accou table organistaion, of un-known walth, influence and threat to all that is envisioned by the UN Charter precisely because this quasi- Satate's system of law is in disaccord with the reality of life upon the Earth.

In signed anonymous contravention to that law claimed by the Misplaced Pages Foundation, and in charge that this Foundation will be responsible for all hereto published verifiabilities including specifically all charges of factual criminality and responsibility under all relevant law within the jurisdictions touched upon by the said Misplaced Pages: EffK as pseudonyim claims degrading treatment under international convention within this page, and all the pages of this charity and pubilcation of EffK's IP number following at this time/date stamp shall constitute future charges of criminality under Conventions. Be warned that prosecution is fair, and failure to release the above texts under solely the name EffK -without address- will be prosecuted as strictly a continuance, under principles of Unusual and Degrading Punishment thus far suffered by EffK. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.70.104.63 (talk) 20:21, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Hereby I sahll prosecute under Convention. EffK