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The Irish Volunteers

The assertion that "The Irish Volunteers were a paramilitary organization established by Irish Nationalists to oppose the Ulster Volunteer Force" is misleading at best. While they were clearly formed for different (indeed opposite) purposes, MacNeill and the other leaders made it very clear that the Irish Volunteers were formed in repsonse to, rather than in opposition to, the Ulster Volunteers. At no time did any of the original leadership condone any action against the Ulster Volunteers. MacNeill had gone so far as to state that the Ulster Volunteers had threatened war against Britain, and if that were to occur, the Irish Volunteers should join them. the notion of this ever really happening was basically ridiculous, as they would be fighting for opposite reasons, but his point remains clear. Also, neither organization was actually illegal, although both had engaged in illegal arms imports. The ban was lifted shortly after the Howth incident, but with the outbreak of war weeks later, clearly importing arms from Germany was not to be allowed. R. fiend

Role of IRB in formation of IV

I rewrote the section dealing with the formation of the IV. In my revised section, I start with the facts and then give room to the interpretation of these. The facts are, as Ferriter outlines, what led to the formation of the Irish Volunteers. It is a FACT that MacNeill's article played the most important role, at least in the public eye, in this. That is what the first paragraph should outline what actually happened. Subsequent paragraphs can then discuss the role the IRB may or may not have played in this. That is good history. What Domer48 is proposing is that one point of view should take precedence over all others. The "rationale" he provides for this is that he has produced "referenced material". Well, so I have I, and from two professional historians to boot. (Eoin Neeson is not a professional historian, but is a former government press secretary).

I'm not sure whether Domer48 has studied history. I have and I hold a PhD in the subject. To be frankly honest, his behaviour on Misplaced Pages is appalling at times. He has a tendency to take subjective opinions from one book and enforce these as gospel on Misplaced Pages. That is certainly not how professional historians go about their business, and it should not be how Misplaced Pages functions.--Damac (talk) 21:56, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

You do not know who Eoin Neeson. List all of his works! Or possible just the top 10. And lets not forget K Clarke, what she did not know what was happening --Domer48 (talk) 22:15, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I do know Eoin Neeson, actually, thank you very much. He is not a professional historian, unlike the two others I mention. Mrs Clarke is of course worthy, but we always need to be particularly critical of any information provided by eyewitnesses, particularly when, as in her case, it comes in the form of retrospective recollections. Anyone who has studied history knows that. (And I presume your history is better than your Irish, ).--Damac (talk) 22:33, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

So the more obscure and difficult to name an author's books are, the more reliable it is? Good logic. Enough of the attempts at one-upmanship. Just because you have a source that says one thing it does not mean every other source is incorrect. -R. fiend (talk) 22:21, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Work away folks, cause as everyone knows, I pull out more references than you can handle. As to my Irish, ha. PhD ye right. I'll let the references do the talking. --Domer48 (talk) 22:46, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

You should be reminded that it's not the quantity but the quality of references that's important. Again, had you any idea of history you'd know that.--Damac (talk) 23:00, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Still can't name any books by Eoin Neeson? How about any of his plays? Or possibly one or two of his novels? What are thoses other name he writes under? Tell you what, place the referenced quotes you are using down here, to back up your claim? Lets us all decide if they reflect what is in the article. Now why not start with good old Diarmaid, just because I read the article in Phoenix Magazine last week. Now the full quotes mind, so there is no accusations of misrepresentation. --Domer48 (talk) 23:14, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not here on Misplaced Pages to engage you in your school-yard games (how many ... can you name, etc).--Damac (talk) 23:31, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Right you can not name any of them, so that is out the window, you don't know Eoin Neeson. Now, what you can do, is post the referenced quotes I asked for, as the information is being challanged, and it will be removed. Not a game. --Domer48 (talk) 23:59, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh oh oh! I can! I can! Birth of a Republic, The Civil War, The Life and Death of Michael Collins, A History of Irish Forestry, The Book of Irish Saints, An Tain, Cuchulain’s Saga, The Imperishable Celtic Epic, Deirdre and Other Great Stories from Celtic Mythology, The First Book of Irish Myths and Legends, The Second Book of Irish Myths and Legends, Irish Myths and Legends, Celtic Myths and Legends, Aspects of Parallelism in Japanese and Irish Character and Culture. I WIN!!!!!! -R. fiend (talk) 00:05, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Now that is the notability of Eoin Neeson sorted (just a fraction of his work), Bailing out the PhD, now the referenced quotes, to back up the changes. --Domer48 (talk) 00:12, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Again, you've landed yourself in all this by your evident inability to understand basic English. Nobody doubted Neeson's notability; I didn't even remove the references you made to his work. I simply stated that he is not a professional historian, mainly to pre-empt your mantra about removing referenced material, etc. Has Neeson ever published anything in a peer-reviewed historical journal? That is the mark of a true historian, not the amount of popular history books s/he churns out about mythology.

I don't have to prove to you that I have a PhD in history. I have one, and I couldn't give two hoots whether you take that on board or not. I am recognised by my academic peers as having one and that's what matters.

I'm not sure whether you've noticed, but I provided quotations from the source I mentioned, while you simply referred to the page numbers. I've stated what Ferriter writes; now why don't you come out with what Mrs Clarke and Neeson claim, rather than just provide page numbers. And let's not forget; you removed references to the works of historians, not me. --Damac (talk) 00:32, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Let us also not forget that Kathleen Clarke had absolutely nothing to do with the formation of the Volunteers. She is far from an authority on that subject. -R. fiend (talk) 00:35, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, indeed. And that this "autobiography" did not appear during her lifetime, but is an edited memoir published posthumously in 1991 (i.e. 19 years after her death). Interesting no doubt, but certainly not an authoritative source.--Damac (talk) 00:46, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Books by L. Ron Hubbard: Buckskin Brigades, Final Blackout, Fear, Typewriter in the Sky, Ole Doc Methuselah, Battlefield Earth, Mission Earth, Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health, Child Dianetics. Dianetic Processing for Children, Notes on the Lectures, Scientology 8-80, Dianetics 55!, Dianetics: The Evolution of a Science, Scientology: The Fundamentals of Thought, The Problems of Work Washington, Have You Lived Before This Life?, Scientology: A New Slant on Life, The Volunteer Minister's Handbook, Research and Discovery Series, The Way to Happiness.

Just look at all of 'em! Now there's an authoritative source! -R. fiend (talk) 00:20, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Damac you have shown clearly that you don't know Neeson, as to your PhD, on wiki were not intrested. Now provide the Quote from the referenced source you want to use so other editors can judge. Your buddie has illustrated their lack of understanding of the subject and now wants to ride on your coat tails, and act like a court jester, thats fine. I know you have not got a clue, it is obvious to any one who studies history, but hey, wiki, anyone can edit, including you. --Domer48 (talk) 09:01, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

How you perceive things is of little interest to me. I know who Neeson is, have read some of his books, and am not obliged to spell that out for you on Misplaced Pages.

I have provided a quote from my referenced source; go check it out in the article and stop annoying me and others.--Damac (talk) 14:32, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Lead

Still trying to add WP:OR, now you can reference your changes, or the information can be challanged and removed. Since you have altered referenced information, it's up to you to back it up. --Domer48 (talk) 00:08, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Either you provide the references of it goes, you put stuff in, it's up to you to back it up. --Domer48 (talk) 09:02, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Again, I have provided references. You'll find them in the article.--Damac (talk) 14:40, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Well that fine, because there is a re-write coming up, backed up with references and quotes such as:

“undoubtedly the initiative and the impulse to the series of meetings leading up to the public inauguration of the Volunteers came from the IRB. It was Hobson’s guarantee that he could provide a nucleus of reliable men to launch the movement that persuaded O’Rahilly to go to MacNeill with the project. Easter 1916: The Irish Rebellion, Charles Townshend, 2005, page 41

A view indorsed by

• The IRA, Tim Pat Coogan, 1970, page 33
• The Irish Volunteers 1913-1915,F. X. Martin 1963, page 24
• The Easter Rising, Michael Foy & Brian Barton, 2004, page 7
• Myths from Easter 1916, Eoin Neeson, 2007, page 79
• Victory of Sinn Féin, P.S. O’Hegarty, page 9-10
• The Path to Freedom, Michael Collins, 1922, page 54
• Irish Nationalism, Sean Cronin, 1981, page 105
• A History of Ireland Under the Union, P. S. O’Hegarty, page 669
• 1916: Easter Rising, Pat Coogan, page 50
• Revolutionary Woman, Kathleen Clarke, 1991, page 44
• The Bold Fenian Men, Robert Kee, 1976, page 203
• The IRB: The Irish Republican Brotherhood from the League to Sinn Féin, Owen McGee, 2005, 353-354

Now you can find some of them on the Easter Rising article. The IRB were the "initiative and the impulse" to the formation of the Volunteers. The article dose not reflect the opinion of a number of notable authors, so changes must be made to reflect these opinions. --Domer48 (talk) 20:15, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Yay. More snippets of other people's work haphazardly thrown into an article in a stylistic nightmare. Can hardly wait. -R. fiend (talk) 20:20, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean? Like Diarmaid Ferriter using Michael Laffan's book? Is that what you mean? Tell you what, reach up to your book shelf again, because I did. Now on wiki if you put something in you have to be able to back it up. --Domer48 (talk) 20:29, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Yep, bring it on, Domer48, but remember the old adage of quality, not quantity. The accounts of professional historians Michael Foy, Brian Barton and Charles Townshend are certainly worthy of consideration, and should be discussed in association with Michael Laffan's research. I'd be more wary of the older books mentioned above, written by journalists, amateur historians and eyewitnesses.

Before you start adding material, I'd advise you to read up on the basic principles of grammar, as the stuff you've produced is, at times, appalling and difficult to follow.

Some basic pointers:

• please learn the difference between singular and plural. An organisation like the Irish Volunteers is singular. We say "it was" and not "they were" formed in 1913.

'*Learn when to use commas.--Damac (talk) 20:46, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh you have a problem with contemporary sources have you. Sources who were members of the IRB at the time and would be in an ideal position. I did not here you mention that when Hobson was used. Now let me see if I have this right, Hobson was a Journalist, an armature historian and an eyewitness. You’re not being selective now, are you? And you with a PhD! Now do you want to start the re-write? Because you would after all with your PhD know, that as the article stands, it’s misleading, erroneous and wrong. Now that is not me saying this, that’s what the sources say. Hobson, yes, I've read about him, the last thing that Tom Clarke said to him was "How much did the castle pay you Bulmer." --Domer48 (talk) 21:09, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

The Bulmer Hobson reference has nothing to do with me. It's been there for ages according to the edit history. Deleting it would be fine with me.

Again, another attempt at diversion.--Damac (talk) 21:35, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

No, I don't have a problem with them; I just said I'd be wary of them. People who experienced one thing often have very selective and subjective memories of those events when writing about them later. That's what every student of history learns. I'd take my cue from the famous historian Arthur Marwick, who said that the most recent academic studies on any topic were usually the most reliable, as they usually evaluate existing primary and secondary sources.

By the way, here's something interesting. It's a PDF version of the National Library of Ireland's guide to the Easter Rising, authored by Dr Noel Kissane. Dr Michael Laffan was history consultant. Again, it claims Mac Neill was the main force behind the formation of the Irish Volunteers, but does acknowledge that "a number of the executive, however, were members of the Irish Republican Brotherhood who aimed at using the Volunteers to gain full independence, which indeed came to pass, most of the participants in the 1916 Rising being members of the Volunteers." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Damac (talk • contribs) 21:26, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

The recent edits have not addressed the issue being discussed reasonably here. The lead ommits all reference to the origions of the Volunteers. There is an abundance of sources provided to address this, which I have provided. Now the lead must include the origions, those who attended the first meeting, while mentioning the meeting in the lead, can be expanded later in the article. This could include who drew up the list for the meeting, and arranged the meeting. What was the varied thinking behind it, i.e. what they hoped to achive. Why was MacNeil encouraged to write his article, and by whom. What concerns did MacNeill have before the meeting, and why. When did MacNeill first meet with the IRB. There is enough detailed information available, so mention the meeting in the lead by all means, but ommiting the origins could lead to editors and readers thinking that the meeting just came out of the blue, and not know that it was in fact the IRB who planned it from the start. --Domer48 (talk) 10:15, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Come on, you can't be serious. The lead is the lead; it should explain, in a nutshell, what the article is about. Take a look at these articles: Irish Republican Brotherhood, Irish Republican Army, Irish Citizen Army, etc., and tell me where you can find detailed information on their origins? By all means the article should include the information you mention above, but in a separate section on origins. Let's write that first before radically altering the lead.

We have to assume that Misplaced Pages readers, as humans, have some cop on. Nothing on this planet comes outs of the blue, so we don't need to spell that out surely.--Damac (talk) 10:30, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

The lead is to reflect the article in summary. Where is the fact, that the IRB, were the body behind it's formation. Please read Lead Section in Misplaced Pages:Layout."Normally, the first paragraph summarizes the most important points of the article. It should clearly explain the subject so that the reader is prepared for the greater level of detail and the qualifications and nuances that follow." Now lets keep this discussion civil. Who organised the Volunteers, What, When, Were, Why, and How. The origins are currently ommited, that is Who, what, etc. Now we have a large body of material for this, provided in the sources I have mentioned above. I have additional sources, which we can use later, and give much more detail on all of the above. --Domer48 (talk) 10:49, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

The discussion will remain civil; it's all up to you. As regards the IRB role; the historical sources differ on the role of Eoin Mac Néill and the IRB. As it stands -- and as it stood -- the article did not contain clear information on the role of the IRB in the establishment of the Volunteers. One body of opinion claims that the IRB instigated the establishment of the Volunteers and encouraged Eoin Mac Néill in his plans; the other says that Eoin Mac Néill came up with the idea, was encouraged by the IRB, who later infiltrated it. The paragraph you wrote some weeks ago was not very informative, particularly from a grammar point of view. Once the article has been beefed out, properly referenced and taking all historical opinion into consideration, then, of course, the lead can be modified to reflect that. Let's not put the cart before the horse.--Damac (talk) 11:05, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

The body of evidence is there, like I said I can add more. As it stands, the body of evidence suggests that it was that the IRB instigated the establishment of the Volunteers and encouraged Eoin Mac Néill in his plans. The lead must reflect that. You will agree will you not, that this large body of evidence is not reflected in the lead at all. I will again suggest that you Please read Lead Section in Misplaced Pages:Layout, it dose not say you must Once the article has been beefed out, properly referenced and taking all historical opinion into consideration, then, of course, the lead can be modified." We have the sources, would you like to re-write the lead, to reflect this abundance of new referenced sources, or would you be will to let me. --Domer48 (talk) 11:14, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to wait a bit. I expect Owen McGee's recent scholarly study of the IRB to be in my Christmas stocking this year. Its the most recent account of the organisation, and will surely have something to say on the relationship of the IRB with the IV.--Damac (talk) 11:22, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes I have it, and more besides. Now do you want to re-write the lead based on the current sources or shall I. Because as it stands, it is breaching Lead Section in Misplaced Pages:Layout, neutral point of view, and gives undue weight base on the number of sources which contradict the information currently there. --Domer48 (talk) 11:31, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Guide_to_layout#Lead_section Lead Section clearly states that "the first paragraph summarizes the most important points of the article". As the article stands, there is little or no evidence provided on the IRB's role in establishing the IV. Once that's added in detail, the lead can "summarise" that. And that reflects what I said above about beefing up the article. It's not that difficult.

After you've added your material about the IRB's role, the IRB link should be confined to one line in the lead. That's called summarizing. I know you've a problem with proportions, particularly after you made the SEGI article into one in which information on Ógra Shinn Féin took up more than half the article.

I'd be particularly interested to see McGee's take on it, considering that his is the most recent book on the subject. I'm just surprised that you haven't mentioned him up to know.

Remember your grammar in your re-write, and no whinging when it's corrected or when alternative points of view are added (Laffan).--Damac (talk) 11:42, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I see you are unwilling to re-write the lead, so I will attempt it myself. I'm glad though you have taken my conserns on board and accept that Misplaced Pages:Guide_to_layout#Lead_section Lead Section clearly states that "the first paragraph summarizes the most important points of the article". As to their being little evidence on the IRB, and their role, you may have overlooked the references I provided, so I will outline them again:

“undoubtedly the initiative and the impulse to the series of meetings leading up to the public inauguration of the Volunteers came from the IRB. It was Hobson’s guarantee that he could provide a nucleus of reliable men to launch the movement that persuaded O’Rahilly to go to MacNeill with the project. Easter 1916: The Irish Rebellion, Charles Townshend, 2005, page 41

A view indorsed by

• The IRA, Tim Pat Coogan, 1970, page 33
• The Irish Volunteers 1913-1915, F.X Martin 1963, page 24 (cited)
• The Easter Rising, Michael Foy & Brian Barton, 2004, page 7
• Myths from Easter 1916, Eoin Neeson, 2007, page 79
• Victory of Sinn Féin, P.S. O’Hegarty, page 9-10
• The Path to Freedom, Michael Collins, 1922, page 54
• Irish Nationalism, Sean Cronin, 1981, page 105
• A History of Ireland Under the Union, P. S. O’Hegarty, page 669
• 1916: Easter Rising, Pat Coogan, page 50
• Revolutionary Woman, Kathleen Clarke, 1991, page 44
• The Bold Fenian Men, Robert Kee, 1976, page 203
• The IRB: The Irish Republican Brotherhood from the Lwague to Sinn Féin, Owen McGee, 2005, 353-354

As to McGee, again you may have forgot I did mention in my previous post that I did have additional sources. Now I regretable again must point out to you about your civility, using terms like "whinging" is hardly productive. With this in mind, I should point out to you the talk page guidlines, and hope you bear them in mind. --Domer48 (talk) 12:09, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Look closely at Townsend's quote: he talks about the IRB being the driving force in the "the series of meetings leading up to the public inauguration of the Volunteers". We know that Mac Néill published his article on November 1 and that the movement was launched on November 25. What Townsend is saying, and in this order, is that Mac Néill published the article, O'Rahilly encouraged him, the IRB attended meetings to organise it, particularly the Wyne's Hotel meeting and others, and the movement was launched. That does not contradict the existing wording in any way. The Volunteers was Mac Néill's idea, and the IRB encouraged it. When the movement was officially founded, the IRB were involved, but did not yet control it.

Townsend does not say that the IRB had anything to do with Mac Néill's letter; that was his inspiration and his alone.

Basically,

1. Mac Néill was the main instigator in writing the letter, not the IRB (Laffan, NLI, Ferriter);

2. the IRB was crucial in the formation period, which extended from the appearance of Mac Néill's letter to the launch of the organisation (Clarke, Neeson, et al.);

3. the movement was launched and led by a Provisional Committee containing all shades of green (see Pearse's letter to Devoy, which I've referenced)

4. IRB later infiltrated it big time (Laffan, et al.).

Can we agree on that? Isn't that what the sources suggest? Let me know what you think and we'll move on.--Damac (talk) 12:41, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Afraid not, on so many levels, but I suppose the main one, would be, that's not what Charles Townshend is saying. On this one I think you should really assume good faith. It is really clear. Misplaced Pages:Wikilawyering is really not the best way to proceed.--Domer48 (talk) 13:33, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

A little bit of discussion would go along way. Please spell out what exactly do you disagree with, rather than hiding behind your own Wikilayers?

How would you indicate, based on the sources you have, the gestation of the Irish Volunteers, in simple point form? Is Townshend suggesting that meetings took place before Mac Néill's letter appearered? Does he suggest that Hobson gave his assurances before the letter appeared? From my reading of it, and please show me if (rather than state that) I'm wrong, Townshend is talking about the activities of the IRB during the first three weeks of November, after the appearance of Mac Néill's letter and before the launch of the Volunteers.--Damac (talk) 13:40, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok then "MacNeill, in writing 'the North began', singled himself out as the natural public instigator, but undoubtedly the initiative and the impulse to the series of meetings leading up to the public inauguration of the Volunteers came from the IRB. It was Hobson’s guarantee that he could provide a nucleus of reliable men to launch the movement that persuaded O’Rahilly to go to MacNeill with the project. Easter 1916: The Irish Rebellion, Charles Townshend, 2005, page 40 - 41. So you are wrong in your reading of it. --Domer48 (talk) 13:52, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Again, can I remind you about your tone terms like "hiding behind your own Wikilayers" is not helping. --Domer48 (talk) 14:03, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, you accused me of not assuming good faith and threw in something about Wikilayers. Kettle black etc.--Damac (talk) 14:08, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I think you are in agreement with me, but cannot see that. Are you suggesting that the IRB had something to do with Mac Néill's letter? Who suggests that, if so? I don't think it did. Again, in simple form

• 1 November. Mac Néill writes letter, on his own bat.
• 1-10 November. IRB gets interested, gives assurances on providing men, get O'Rahilly to encourage Mac Néill to make his idea into reality.
• 10 November. IRB sends its people to the meetings held to arrange launch of Volunteers, such as at Wyne's Hotel.
• 25 November. IV is launched.

You need to address a crucial point. When did O'Rahilly go to Mac Néill - before or after the letter appeared. I say after. What do you say?--Damac (talk) 14:07, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I think you are Misplaced Pages:Wikilawyering, because the quote by Charles Townshend is cristle clear. Now we are talking about the lead remember, as to the detail such as that the IRB did have something to do with Mac Néill's letter? Who suggests it to him, and why etc. yes that will be going in, in detail, and I have the references to go alone with it all. Now I know we are not in agreement, so we just go along with the large body of references I have provided. That is "undoubtedly the initiative and the impulse to the series of meetings leading up to the public inauguration of the Volunteers came from the IRB." --Domer48 (talk) 14:25, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Just to answer your question the O'Rahilly went to Mac Néill - before the "article" appeared, and was prompted to do so by Hobson. It will all be referenced. But we have not come to that yet. Also, I asked you to assume good faith of me, that was quite clear alo. --Domer48 (talk) 14:30, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

The quote you provided is not "cristle" clear, as you say. I await your edits and references.--Damac (talk) 15:55, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I have added McGee to the list on your suggestion. --Domer48 (talk) 16:00, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

New section

I think this discussion is getting unnecessarily convoluted, and we need to take a step back and look at exactly who is arguing what position, because there is probably more common ground than we are realizing. It seems to me this discussion is a continuation of a discussion between myself, Domer and User:Scolaire that took place over at Talk:Easter Rising a little while back (if you haven't read it, Damac, I suggest you do, for background information). There Domer argued that the IRB created the Volunteers. It took a while, but we managed to work out some compromise phrasing (I wasn't 100% satisfied with it, and neither was Scolaire, but I let it go for the time being, while Scolaire got fed up and took a Wikibreak). Now it seems Domer is putting forth the same argument over here. I think we can all agree that the IRB had a hand in the creation of the Volunteers (members were involved in the earliest meetings, to say the least). I think it's an oversimplification to say any one person, organization, or group created them.

In the Easter Rising article, the phrasing was that the IRB "instigated" the creation of the Volunteers, but did not "create" them. This is accurate, in the sense that they were an instigator, but they were not the only instigator. Many things instigated the IV, including The North Began and even the formation of the Ulster Volunteers. Can we all agree on that? Providing some motivation for an action is not the same as taking an action. If I tell a friend "you should open a restaurant" and he does, that does not mean I opened the restaurant, or can take the credit for it. -R. fiend (talk) 18:59, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

My edit is a view indorsed by:

• Easter 1916: The Irish Rebellion, Charles Townshend, 2005, page 41
• The IRA, Tim Pat Coogan, 1970, page 33
• The Irish Volunteers 1913-1915,F. X. Martin 1963, page 24
• The Easter Rising, Michael Foy & Brian Barton, 2004, page 7
• Myths from Easter 1916, Eoin Neeson, 2007, page 79
• Victory of Sinn Féin, P.S. O’Hegarty, page 9-10
• The Path to Freedom, Michael Collins, 1922, page 54
• Irish Nationalism, Sean Cronin, 1981, page 105
• A History of Ireland Under the Union, P. S. O’Hegarty, page 669
• 1916: Easter Rising, Pat Coogan, page 50
• Revolutionary Woman, Kathleen Clarke, 1991, page 44
• The Bold Fenian Men, Robert Kee, 1976, page 203
• The IRB: The Irish Republican Brotherhood from the League to Sinn Féin, Owen McGee, 2005, 353-354

Whats your?--Domer48 (talk) 19:29, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Which edit view? The one you originally inserted that they were "established by the Irish Republican Brotherhood"? Because I'll have to call you out on that. The article as it currently stands is much better (though the writing could use some polishing). I think we are getting somewhere with this, as long as the article refrains from asserting that the IRB "created" the Volunteers, or that the latter was some sort of "puppet organization". -R. fiend (talk) 19:37, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

• "The IRB seized its chance to capitalise on this sense of identity when Eoin MacNeill, vice-president of the Gaelic League, wrote an article in the organ of the Gaelic League, An Cliadheamh Soluis, in October 1913, proposing that a body of Southern Volunteers be established on the same line as the Ulster Volunteers. Using the respected name of MacNeill as a front, the IRB organised a meeting to which all parties were invited, at the Rotunda Hall, Dublin, on November 25." (The IRA, Tim Pat Coogan, 1970, page 33)

I would certainly read from that that the IRB were behind the formation of the Volunteers, and that MacNeill was a figurehead. Scolaire (talk) 18:36, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Caught telling more lies. --Domer48 (talk) 19:39, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, that does not prove that the IRB "created" the Volunteers. Nor did I deny that the IRB played a important role, particularly in organizing the first few meetings. But there is a huge difference between that and the idea that the Volunteers were a puppet of the IRB. -R. fiend (talk) 19:55, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I would certainly read from that that the IRB were behind the formation of the Volunteers, and that MacNeill was a figurehead. Scolaire (talk) 18:36, 24 November 2007 (UTC)--Domer48 (talk) 19:58, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I get it! So Scolaire is a reliable source now? Come on! -R. fiend (talk) 20:06, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

"In January 1913, however, the Ulster Volunteer Force was established and this prompted Bulmer Hobson (the co—founder of the republican boy—scouts, Fianna Eireann) to tell his Dublin IRB following that they should use this as an excuse to try to persuade the public to form an Irish volunteer force. James Stritch, an old IRB activist of the Parnell era who grew up with Jim Boland in Manchester, immediately had a drilling hail built behind the Wolfe Tone Clubs headquarters ( Parnell Square, the former site of the National Club, now the Foresters’ Hall) and he together with some much younger members of Fianna Eireann, began drilling a small number of IRB followers associated with the Dublin GAA, which was led by Jim Boland’s son, Harry…on 1 November, Eoin MacNeill of UCD and the Gaelic League wrote an article for An Claidheamh Solus suggesting the formation of an Irish volunteer force with the encouragement of Deakin, Hobson and others." --Domer48 (talk) 17:44, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

On to matters of actual importance

There seems to be a bit of discrepancy about who was at the Wynn's Hotel meeting on 11 November. Bulmer Hobson's account does not list Eamonn Martin. Is there a source for him being there? Also, Pearse was there, but sources indicate he would not join the IRB for another month or so. -R. fiend (talk) 02:14, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Fenian's

Having established the fact that it was the Fenian’s (IRB & the Clan) who were behind the establishment of the Irish Volunteers, through verifiable and reliable sources, how much detail should we include on them. For example, should we also include that it was Fenian’s who founded and funded the GAA, or that it was Fenian’s who founded the Land League, and placed funds at their disposal to launch the Land War. Now I will included all of this in some detail on the Fenian article, all I would like suggestions on is how much of it should appear in this article. Should we include the role played by Thomas Clarke, and his reorganisation of the IRB, and how he bridged the divided between the Clan from the IRB which made the Rising possible? We also know that in January of 1913, the IRB were saying that they should use the excuse of the Ulster Volunteer force to form an Irish Volunteer force. James Strich an IRB activist immediately had a drilling hall built behind the Wolf Tone Club, 41 Parnell Square, and began drilling members of the IRB, who would then play a role within the Volunteer force, some months later, as we know, O’Neill wrote the article. As you can see, a lot of detail, all of which can be referenced, but how much do we us. --Domer48 (talk) 16:46, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

In my last edit, I have tried to include the above information as breifly as possible, using existing text, and adding reference. I have a number of references for this should any additional ones be required --Domer48 (talk) 17:34, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

For references on Tom Clarke I have placed some references on the Easter Rising article talk page here. Obviously these could be expanded by adding more referenced works, but they give a general idea. --Domer48 (talk) 17:39, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

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