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This article has been mentioned by a media organization: Loretta Keller (16 Nov 2007). "Torture harms more than the victim". Pasadena Star-News. {{cite news}}: URL–wikilink conflict (help)

Waterboarding was nominated as a good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (December 20, 2007). There are suggestions below for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated.

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Archive 1: 2004 - 20 Jul 2007 Archive 2: 21 Jul 2007 - 31 Oct 2007 Archive 3: 31 Oct 2007 - 8 Nov 2007 Archive 4: 8 Nov 2007 - 3 Dec 2007 Archive 5: 3 Dec 2007 - 22 Dec 2007

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Is/isn't torture -- list all sources here

No one seems to dispute at all that waterboarding is considered torture, so far, based on the mini-rfc above. Let's get a collection here of all sources that assert waterboarding is torture, just a collection of links and sources. This is the -the- main bone of contention basically. At the same time, lets also do the same thing with sources that say it isn't torture/isn't considered torture, in the interests of NPOV, and to see what turns up. Anyone who considers it not torture, this is your time to demonstrate that with evidence. • Lawrence Cohen 16:51, 25 November 2007 (UTC) Updating to ensure this is not archived yet. Lawrence Cohen 17:23, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Sources that assert waterboarding is torture

From Innertia Tensor

• 100 U.S. law professors. In April 2006, in a letter to Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez., more than 100 U.S. law professors stated unequivocally that waterboarding is torture, and is a criminal felony punishable under the U.S. federal criminal code.
• John McCain. According to Republican United States Senator John McCain, who was tortured as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam, waterboarding is "torture, no different than holding a pistol to his head and firing a blank" and can damage the subject's psyche "in ways that may never heal." - Torture's Terrible Toll, Newsweek, November 21, 2005.

reiterated stance in youtube debate on November 28 - stating "I am astonished that you would think such a – such a torture would be inflicted on anyone in our — who we are held captive and anyone could believe that that's not torture. It's in violation of the Geneva Convention." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Remember (talk • contribs) 14:18, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

• Lindsey Graham. Republican Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, a member of the Judiciary Committee and a Colonel in the US Air Force Reserves, said "I am convinced as an individual senator, as a military lawyer for 25 years, that waterboarding ... does violate the Geneva Convention, does violate our war crimes statute, and is clearly illegal."

Comment: Graham did not say it was torture but rather "illegal"--Blue Tie (talk) 03:43, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

• U.S. Department of State. In its 2005 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices, the U.S. Department of State formally recognizes "submersion of the head in water" as torture in its examination of Tunisia's poor human rights record, U.S. Department of State (2005). "Tunisia". Country Reports on Human Rights Practices. {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |month= (help). (ED: There's more to waterboarding than that (dunking) - but it does also involve a form of submersion. Inertia Tensor (talk) 09:51, 26 November 2007 (UTC))

Comment: The US State Department was not talking about Waterboarding but submersion -- which is different.--Blue Tie (talk) 03:44, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

• U.S. Law 18/2340. Chapter 18 United States Code, section 2340

On two counts in plain English.

(1) “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control Inertia Tensor 09:06, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

(2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from— (C) the threat of imminent death Inertia Tensor 09:06, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment: This law does not mention waterboarding and it is disputed that waterboarding must produce those effects. Furthermore it permits some acts suffered incidental to lawful sanctions.

• UN Convention. UN Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, 1984 Signatories 74, Parties 136, As of 23 April 2004

• For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

• Benjamin Davis. Benjamin Davis, a professor at the University of Toledo College of Law writes "Waterboarding has been torture for at least 500 years. All of us know that torture is going on." in an OpEd in Jurist, Endgame on Torture: Time to Call the Bluff
• Jimmy Carter. Former US President Jimmy Carter stated "The United States tortures prisoners in violation of international law" and continued "I don't think it.... I know it" in a CNN interview on October the 10th 2007

Comment: Jimmy Carter did not say that waterboarding was torture. --Blue Tie (talk) 03:48, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

• Mississippi Supreme Court. In the case of Fisher v. State, the Mississippi Supreme Court reversed the murder conviction of an African-American because of the use of waterboarding. "The state offered . . . testimony of confessions made by the appellant, Fisher. . . , after the state had rested, introduced the sheriff, who testified that, he was sent for one night to come and receive a confession of the appellant in the jail; that he went there for that purpose; that when he reached the jail he found a number of parties in the jail; that they had the appellant down upon the floor, tied, and were administering the water cure, a specie of torture well known to the bench and bar of the country."
• International Military Tribunal for the Far East. The Judgment of the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, Chapter 8

  The practice of torturing prisoners of war and civilian internees prevailed at practically all places occupied by Japanese troops, both in the occupied territories and in Japan. The Japanese indulged in this practice during the entire period of the Pacific War. Methods of torture were employed in all areas so uniformly as to indicate policy both in training and execution. Among these tortures were the water treatment, burning, electric shocks, the knee spread, suspension, kneeling on sharp instruments and flogging.

• Evan J. Wallach, US Federal Judge states that "we know that U.S. military tribunals and U.S. judges have examined certain types of water-based interrogation and found that they constituted torture."

Inertia Tensor (talk) 09:28, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

From Lawrence Cohen

• Washington Post, Malcolm Wrightson Nance, a counterterrorism specialist who taught at the Navy's Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape (SERE), said "As the event unfolded, I was fully conscious of what was happening: I was being tortured.".
• CBS News, Larry Cox, Amnesty International USA's executive director. "Its own State Department has labeled water boarding torture when it applies to other countries." - On Bush administration.
• Public letter to Senator Patrick Leahy, "Waterboarding is inhumane, it is torture, and it is illegal." and "Waterboarding detainees amounts to illegal torture in all circumstances.". From Rear Admiral Donald J. Guter, United States Navy (Ret.) Judge Advocate General of the Navy, 2000-02; Rear Admiral John D. Hutson, United States Navy (Ret.) Judge Advocate General of the Navy, 1997-2000; Major General John L. Fugh, United States Army (Ret.) Judge Advocate General of the Army, 1991-93; Brigadier General David M. Brahms, United States Marine Corps (Ret.) Staff Judge Advocate to the Commandant, 1985-88.
• Jewish human rights group, "Waterboarding -- an interrogation practice associated with the Spanish Inquisition and prosecuted under U.S. law as torture as much as a century ago -- is unquestionably torture."
• Galloway, famous war correspondent, Bronze Medal winner in Vietnam, "Is waterboarding torture? The answer to all of these questions, put simply, is yes."
• Mike Huckabee, Republican Presidential nominee, "He said the country should aggressively interrogate terrorism suspects and go after those who seek to do the country harm, but he objects to "violating our moral code" with torture. He said he believes waterboarding is torture."

I found these tonight. That's 15 notable views sourced. I think I can find more yet. This was just a casual and fairly lazy search. Lawrence Cohen 08:43, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Also from Hypnosadist, on these three. NYT, ABC News, BBC News. An ex-CIA interrogator is interviewed. Does not address questions of right or wrong, because the interview shows he believes the act of waterboarding is torture.

Now retired, Kiriakou, who declined to use the enhanced interrogation techniques, says he has come to believe that water boarding is torture but that perhaps the circumstances warranted it.

"Like a lot of Americans, I'm involved in this internal, intellectual battle with myself weighing the idea that waterboarding may be torture versus the quality of information that we often get after using the waterboarding technique," Kiriakou told ABC News. "And I struggle with it."

More sources yet on this. Lawrence Cohen 21:17, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

From Badagnani

• The Washington Post (December 9, 2007): "Waterboarding as an interrogation technique has its roots in some of history’s worst totalitarian nations, from Nazi Germany and the Spanish Inquisition to North Korea and Iraq. In the United States, the technique was first used five decades ago as a training tool to give U.S. troops a realistic sense of what they could expect if captured by the Soviet Union or the armies of Southeast Asia. The U.S. military has officially regarded the tactic as torture since the Spanish-American War."

Badagnani (talk) 03:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Attorney Andrew Williams, on resigning from Navy Judge Advocate General corps (Knight Ridder pres wire service, Dec 27, 2007.) called it torture. Williams in his resignation letter said waterboarding was used as a form of torture by the Inquisition, and by the Gestapo and the Japanese Kempietai. He cites the post-WW2 conviction of Japanese Officer Yukio Asano for waterboarding resulting in a 15 year sentence. Edison (talk) 14:45, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Sources that assert waterboarding is acceptable

Not exactly, but pretty close. See below. Remember (talk) 17:19, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

"..NEWSWEEK has learned that Yoo's August 2002 memo was prompted by CIA questions about what to do with a top Qaeda captive, Abu Zubaydah, who had turned uncooperative. And it was drafted after White House meetings convened by George W. Bush's chief counsel, Alberto Gonzales, along with Defense Department general counsel William Haynes and David Addington, Vice President Dick Cheney's counsel, who discussed specific interrogation techniques, says a source familiar with the discussions. Among the methods they found acceptable: "water-boarding," or dripping water into a wet cloth over a suspect's face, which can feel like drowning; and threatening to bring in more-brutal interrogators from other nations."Link to article.

Not Relevant - whether a form of torture is acceptable or not has more to do with the ethics of a government. This still does not deny that waterboarding is torture.Nospam150 (talk) 17:32, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Just about everyone on Fox News, including both the right and left pundits on The Beltway Boys. See, both sides agree. Obviously, it must be fair and balanced to say that people in the US believe it isn't torture it is torture it's acceptable if it gets results, whatever it's called. Thompsontough (talk) 05:09, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Sources that say it is unclear whether waterboarding is torture or not

Andrew C. McCarthy and Mary Jo White say it's not certain. Both are notable attorneys.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 17:48, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Please, again, quote where White says that? I don't see it. Lawrence Cohen 17:53, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

FOUND ACCEPTABLE is OBFUSCATION. That is a different question altogether. Is it acceptable to euthanize the whitehouse, probably these days; is it legal, no. Big difference. Therefore we do not do it. Inertia Tensor (talk) 20:32, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I'll repeat here for the sake of continuity: Although, as a civilized people, our immediate and commendable instinct is to declare waterboarding repugnant and unlawful, that answer is not necessarily correct in all circumstances. The operative legal language (both legislative and judicial) does not explicitly bar waterboarding or any other specific technique of interrogation. Instead, it bars methods that are considered to be "torture," "cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment" or that "shock the conscience."

And for those who doubt that the CIA would take this seriously, they've been known to rule against other important operations.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 19:38, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

This of course is nonsense. See above for links to articles that better explain why. In short, UNCAT does not specify which acts constitute torture, nevertheless you will have great difficulty explaining to a judge that pulling out fingernails and applying electricity to the genitals is not torture. Nomen Nescio 15:56, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

And additionally, it would be a violation of WP:SYN for us to use this, in this way. Lawrence Cohen 15:58, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not completely sure which element of my post you're pointing to wrt WP:SYN. If you mean my link to the the "other important ops" then, sure, but I was only using that preemtively. There are those who aren't willing to accept that the CIA's lawyers are serious lawyers.

Or, were you referring to Nomen's reply to me? That does seem to be something akin to synthesis. After all, much of the "is-torture" POV rests upon a group aggreement about what opponents merely believe to be torture.

UNCAT provides an interesting item that says of the European court, "the use of the five techniques of sensory deprivation and even the beatings of prisoners are not torture." If it's possible that beatings aren't necessarily torture then who's to say that properly controlled waterboarding is? I'm not sure I understand that yet but it may be worth looking into.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 17:34, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry I wasn't being clear. I'm basically saying, it's not our place to analyze whether it is or isn't torture, at all, ever. Misplaced Pages is a teritiary source, only. We aren't going to analyze and conceive of research over whether waterboarding is or isn't torture. We don't care. We only care what sources say. If the overwhelming weight of the sources say, "It's torture," we report as a fact in the article that its torture, full stop. If a minority fringe viewpoint exists that goes contrary to accepted society consensus, which says its not torture on that line, then we can report that, "But such-and-such person considers it not torture." If the weight of sources we reversed, the situation would be reversed, and we'd say "Its not torture, but such and such says it is." A good comparison might be articles on Intellegient design. They say that ID is not accepted as valid science (because its not, based on the overwhelming volume of sources) but the articles fairly make clear who considers it to be valid. That's all we can do. We will not under any circumstances advance a particular minority viewpoint or the viewpoint of any government over everything else in the article. Lawrence Cohen 17:43, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I think you just hit on why you have that wrong. For example, what you're saying would be perfectly true if the question was merely about whether it's intended for water to go into the lungs. It either does or it doesn't. The answer (which I won't argue here) should be an objective fact based on medical science and observation.

I don't see any of your sources that are factual like that. They are all opinions. Some are better than others, but they're still opinions. Add up all the opinions and then you might have a consensus of opinion but that doesn't make it into scientific truth. In fact, this is exactly why intelligent design meets the fringe category. Just imagine if somebody found 100 lawyers and politicians to assert that ID is valid science, and see how far that flies.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 18:52, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

That was a contrasting example, and nothing more. Irregardless of anything else, Misplaced Pages does not report anything that is not sourced, full stop. If all we have are opinions--which isn't the case, and false for you to say, as we also have court decisions listed here, then we go with the overwhelming weight of notable views and opinions. Please provide a weight of sources that indicate waterboarding is not torture, from reliable sources, or else we're just spinning in circles that won't change the fact that per policy we're only going to be saying "waterboarding is torture". I suspect some people have some sort of personal reasoning or external to Misplaced Pages reasons to want this, but that doesn't have any value for us and thankfully never will. Lawrence Cohen 19:01, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

When have I ever asked for something to be included that it not sourced? I've disputed the relevance of some sources we have here. I may have also disputed items or suggested a view without mentioning a source but I never thought about adding something for which a source couldn't conceivably be found.

I'm sorry if you have something that's not an opinion but I don't see it. As I understand it, court decisions are legal opinions. For example, the case for evolution lost in the Scopes Trial. That was merely a legal opinion. It didn't change the facts of the science of evolution.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 20:07, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

This entire runaway thread is based on a false premise, it is OBFUSCATION. Among the methods they found acceptable: "water-boarding,". There is a big difference between acceptable (in some cases) and is or is not torture. Some people are confusing the concepts of Waterboarding {is/is not} torture Vs Waterboarding {is/is not} okay under some circumstances. This confusion has been accidental in some cases, and very deliberate obfuscation in others (certain politicians).

There are some interesting points in all this text such touching on the fact that EUCOJ putting the brits use of sensory deprivation on Irish Republicans under "cruel and unusual" as opposed to "torture" however, there is nothing in all this block about a source saying waterboarding is not torture. This thread is as relevant to it's cat "Sources that say it is not torture" as the Uncylopedia entry I have below on Waterboarding in the Gaza Strip, or Santa. This is not a source, it is a debate over nothing. Inertia Tensor (talk) 20:26, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Ding! I've never once talked about whether it's acceptable, just whether it is/isn't torture based on the sources. And Randy, actually, I'm quite aware of what an opinion versus a fact is. However, unless you're prepared to counter every single source listed with evidence and analysis of why the views expressed are not valid for us to use to state that waterboarding is torture, there's nothing else to be done. It is not our decision. We can only report what sources say. If we have essentially one pundit/ex-United States prosecutor saying, "Waterboarding isn't torture," and volumes of other other sources and experts saying it is, where do you suspect that leaves us? Lawrence Cohen 20:32, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not disagreeing with every source. I'm merely saying that every source appears to represent an opinion. (If I'm wrong then please point to one that isn't.) The cumulative weight of all these opinions doesn't turn them into a fact.

It would be factual to say something like "waterboarding is considered torture by most legal experts.". It is merely expressing an opinion to say "waterboarding is torture." That could even be a good opinion -- an opinion held for 500 years -- but it's still an opinion.

I suggest we look here for guidance: WP:NPOV#Let_the_facts_speak_for_themselves

-- Randy2063 (talk) 21:10, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - It is also, then, by this reasoning, an opinion to state that macaroni is a type of noodle, or that Easter is a type of holiday. Again, you should probably try to change the title of Rack (torture) if you want to so radically redefine the term "torture" Badagnani (talk) 21:16, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

"Waterboarding is a type of controlled drowning, that has been long considered a form of torture by numerous experts." ? Lawrence Cohen 21:14, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that's better. I wouldn't even argue if you used "most experts" but I would prefer we found another term for expert.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 22:08, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

This is a SOURCES discussion on two VERY NARROW issues. Sources that say that WB (or a reasonably read torture definition that would cover it) IS, or IS NOT torture. Not a debate, Andrew C. McCarthy and Mary Jo White do not go there at all - they are seeking to cast possible doubt or questions on whether it is not torture - but nothing more. It's all part of the same deliberate US obfuscation tactics I mention above. Inertia Tensor (talk) 20:30, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Sources that assert waterboarding is not torture

Add sources here. —Ka-Ping Yee (talk) 03:45, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Do Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity count? Thompsontough (talk) 05:11, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Other comments

• Uncyclopedia. Waterboarding is an extreme sport popular among surfers on Middle Eastern beaches. Only recommended for experienced wandsurfers, this sport requires a long, narrow, wedge-shaped board. Practitioners secure themselves to the waterboard and ride, face-down, on the slightest currents. The tide off the Gaza strip is perfect for this sport in summer. ] Inertia Tensor (talk) 09:29, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
• Santa Claus. Though he has not stated it is not torture, there is no record anywhere of him saying waterboarding is torture, on monday, when the trees grow, or when the sun is low. We are still checking whether he said it at other times, and until we can confirm, we should not say waterboarding is torture. Inertia Tensor (talk) 10:05, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
  • It's not necessary to mock the process. I share your opinion that waterboarding is torture, but I think Lawrence is making sincere efforts to find a consensus and we should respect that. —Ka-Ping Yee (talk) 10:51, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
    • I believe this is not mocking the process, but (some of) its participants... What Lawrence is doing here is really exemplary. GregorB (talk) 10:16, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

• • • • Exactly. Anyway, if this gets resolved, I will be calling on all participants to push an RfA for Lawrence. Inertia Tensor (talk) 20:03, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
        • Actually, this arguement clearly deserves mocking. Simple logic leads to the direct conclusion that waterboarding is torture. Some group of people WHO ARE USING IT say its not torture. That reeks of bias. We can rely on the US government for laws, but we can't rely on them for facts.--Can Not (talk) 01:01, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
          • And a group who are not using it are saying that it is; more bias! Relying on the US (or any) government for facts is usually not indicated. htom (talk) 04:44, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Shibumi2's proposed new article lead

This is my proposal for the new article lead. Please consider it in spirit of cooperation and consensus upon which Misplaced Pages was founded.

Waterboarding consists of immobilizing a person on his or her back, in many cases with the head inclined downward, and pouring water over the face and into the breathing passages. It is considered by most sources to be a form of torture. Through forced suffocation and inhalation of water, the subject experiences the sensation of drowning in a controlled environment and is made to believe that death is imminent. In contrast to merely submerging the head face-forward, waterboarding almost immediately elicits the gag reflex. Although waterboarding can be performed in ways that leave no lasting physical damage, Human Rights Watch has claimed that it carries the risks of extreme pain, damage to the lungs, brain damage caused by oxygen deprivation, injuries (including broken bones) due to struggling against restraints, and even death. The psychological effects on victims of waterboarding can last for years after the procedure.

Waterboarding has been used in interrogations to obtain information and coerce confessions at least as early as the Spanish Inquisition. It has also been used to punish and intimidate. Today it is considered to be torture by a majority of expert authorities, including legal experts, politicians, war veterans, intelligence officials, military judges, and human rights organizations. However, some noteworthy legal experts, including Stanford Law professor and former US deputy assistant attorney general John Yoo and former US Justice Department prosecutor Andrew McCarthy argue that waterboarding is not torture in all cases.

Waterboarding gained recent attention and notoriety in the United States when the press reported that the CIA had used waterboarding in the interrogation of certain extrajudicial prisoners and that the Justice Department had authorized this procedure. The new controversy surrounded the alleged use of waterboarding by the CIA on terrorist leaders, such as Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, and whether the practice was acceptable.

Please indicate below whether you support or oppose this version of the article lead.

• Strongly support. Shibumi2 (talk) 22:28, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose. As per reasoning and 2 months of discussion above and in archives. Not repeating myself here - it's already on this page. See all the leads proposed in Nov/Dev 2007 here: PROPOSED LEADS for more information - but please do not edit the archive. Inertia Tensor (talk) 22:33, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
• Strongly support - This article, as it now stands is a WP:COATRACK. That's an essay, not a policy; but it describes with pinpoint accuracy the strategy that has been used here to do an end run around WP:NPOV, which is bedrock Wiki policy. If a dozen POV pushers are on one side in a consensus, and one editor like Shibunie stands up for NPOV, policy is more important than consensus. 68.29.221.171 (talk) 00:50, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose - The current lead, which is accurate and well sourced, was created over a period of months, with many editors considering all available sources and developing consensus. Badagnani (talk) 23:25, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

This is encyclopedia article. It is not inventory of everything editor does not like about Bush Administration. Language used must be strictly neutral. Facts must be verified. Reputation of Misplaced Pages project is more important than any editor's agenda. Shibumi2 (talk) 23:40, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. I object to the sentence: "Expert opinion is divided on the issue of whether waterboarding is torture." for the reasons discussed above. —Ka-Ping Yee (talk) 00:01, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

I have removed that sentence. Please reconsider your vote. Shibumi2 (talk) 00:52, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

It is better. But it is still too heavily focused on the United States. This should be an article primarily about waterboarding now and throughout history, not about "waterboarding as practiced by the United States" or "waterboarding as viewed by the United States." Your proposed lead devotes about one-third of its 300 words to United States opinions and controversy; the current lead is more balanced. John Yoo and Andrew McCarthy do not belong in the lead. I would not object to a sentence such as "However, certain U. S. attorneys have argued that waterboarding is not torture in all cases." Further details on the U. S. controversy should go in their own section. —Ka-Ping Yee (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 02:45, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Also, this lead misrepresents the Bybee memo (cited after "John Yoo"). The memo argues for definitions of "severe physical pain" and "severe mental pain" but does not mention waterboarding anywhere as far as I can tell. If I am in error, please point to the part of the memo that "argues that waterboarding is not torture in all cases". Otherwise, John Yoo should be removed from the lead. —Ka-Ping Yee (talk) 09:07, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

• Neither oppose or support. There are errors of fact and an unbalanced perspective. But it is better than the current lead. --Blue Tie (talk) 00:42, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Please recommend changes to satisfy your concerns about errors of fact and unbalanced perspective Blue Tie. I would like to win your support for this change. As you say it is better than current lead. Shibumi2 (talk) 00:48, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

• Support - I disagree with a few items but it comes closest to being objective. -- Randy2063 (talk) 17:28, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

• Support This version is still biased against the government but it is the best of a bad lot. PennState21 (talk) 18:18, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

• Strongly support. This was exquisitely crafted by someone who is not a native speaker of English. It accommodates all concerns expressed on this Talk page except one: the desire to pretend that there is no dispute about the "waterboarding is torture" claim, and that the opinions of former federal prosecutor Andrew McCarthy, Stanford Law professor John Yoo, Attorney General Michael Mukasey, Judge Advocate General Thomas Hartmann, Congressman Tom Tancredo, Congressman Ted Poe, the editorial board of the Wall Street Journal, law professor Jeffrey Addicott, waterboarding victim Matt Margolis, and 29% of the American people should all be ignored. Neutral Good (talk) 03:04, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Your list of sources considerably exaggerates the facts. Tancredo and Poe have said outright that waterboarding is not torture; that is true. The WSJ editorial implies that waterboarding is not torture. McCarthy said repeated waterboarding is torture but once or twice probably isn't. Yoo did not give an opinion on waterboarding in the Bybee memo. Mukasey refused to give an opinion. Hartmann refused to give an opinion. Addicott did not say anything about waterboarding either. And you have mis-cited Matt Margolis: he does not himself claim to be a waterboarding victim; he presents quotations from an anonymous source who claims to have been waterboarded. In summary, this is what you have:

• Two congressmen, a newspaper editorial, and an anonymous friend of a political blogger who say waterboarding is not torture.
• One former prosecutor who says repeated waterboarding is torture but isolated instances may not be torture.
• A telephone poll in the United States in which 69% say waterboarding is torture and 29% say it isn't.

Notice also that all of this is only within the United States, and it is quite thin on legal expertise. On the other side of the issue you have over 110 legal experts, not to mention all the other sources researched so far. Therefore, the lead and the article must reflect the general understanding, both within and outside of the United States, both in the present and in history, that waterboarding is torture. I am not opposed to a brief mention of the opposing viewpoint in the lead — a single sentence such as "Certain United States politicians have recently stated that waterboarding is not torture" would be fine with me — but it would be biased to go any further than that in the lead; that would unquestionably constitute undue weight. —Ka-Ping Yee (talk) 09:52, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Your post can be summarized as follows: All of these sources, including several very prominent legal authorities, are saying that waterboarding cannot be stated with certainty to be torture, as the America haters are insisting the lead sentenceshould say. Some of these legal authorities go farther by saying with certainty that waterboarding is not torture in all cases. A few go even farther by saying waterboarding is not torture in ANY case. But all of them agree, in effect, that the lead sentence of this article is not an accurate statement of fact. It is a significant, substantial dispute. Neutral Good (talk) 12:43, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

This is some of the most amazing spin-doctoring of others' comments. Please argue based on policy, not ad hominems. Lawrence Cohen 14:09, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. The expert divided wording is simply not acceptable, as it's not accurate or supported. What sources say "expert opinion" is divided on the is/isn't torture matter? Lawrence Cohen 04:12, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
• Strong oppose No experts say it is not torture, only the opinion of two politicians who support the right of their government to torture. So i agree with "Certain United States politicians have recently stated that waterboarding is not torture" but thats it. 11:20, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
• Strong support. 209.221.240.193 (talk) 19:05, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose. The first sentence is a description, instead of a definition. The intro attempts to muddle muddles the issue of torture by breaking WP:UNDUE. I said it once before: imagine Moon landing article intro saying that "Moon landing is considered by most sources to have actually happened, and was not a hoax". I don't like the inclusion of current issues (US administration, etc.) in the intro either. GregorB (talk) 14:36, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

The moon landing comparison is the best, most perfect one so far. Another would be the flat earth ultra-minority of "experts" who feel the world is indeed flat for whatever religious or other reasons. Lawrence Cohen 14:49, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Just one important correction to what I've written above: I think the intro muddles the issue, but is unfair, though, to say it "attempts to", as that would imply a malicious intent. GregorB (talk) 16:05, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not aware of any justice minister of any major government power that disputed whether or not the moon landing had happened.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 16:18, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

True, but notability of sources does not equal reliability. The opposing views are invariably American government viewpoints, not exactly impartial in this story (cui bono, one might ask) which makes them far less reliable than views of neutral parties (while still indisputably notable and important). GregorB (talk) 17:43, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

There aren't that many neutral parties. Just look at the sources. The lawyers who say that it is torture tend to be critics of U.S. policy (regardless of whatever that policy may be), and some are at the extreme end. I don't say Andrew C. McCarthy is objective but it's wrong for WP to say that those on the other side are.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 16:42, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

• Comment -- I know there has been a contentitious discussion going on about this, but I haven't been paying a lot of attention. I have no problem with this particular lead. However, since it too may be controversial, I am going to suggest three changes.
  • Basically, this lead would be perfectly fine, and less likely to stir controversy, if it did not mention torture, at all.
  • Cut, the second sentence "It is considered by most sources to be a form of torture." -- and all other explicit references to torture from the lead.
  • The third sentence currently states: "Through forced suffocation and inhalation of water, the subject experiences the sensation of drowning in a controlled environment and is made to believe that death is imminent." Replace with something like: "Through forced suffocation and inhalation of water, the subject experiences the first stages of drowning in a controlled environment and is made to believe that death is imminent." -- or: "Through forced inhalation of water, the subject experiences the first stages of drowning and imminent death."
  • Shorten and combine the last two paragraphs, so the lead reads something like:

"Waterboarding consists of immobilizing a person on his or her back, in many cases with the head inclined downward, and pouring water over the face and into the breathing passages. Through forced suffocation and inhalation of water, the subject experiences the first stages of drowning in a controlled environment and is made to believe that death is imminent. In contrast to merely submerging the head face-forward, waterboarding almost immediately elicits the gag reflex. Although waterboarding can be performed in ways that leave no lasting physical damage, Human Rights Watch has claimed that it carries the risks of extreme pain, damage to the lungs, brain damage caused by oxygen deprivation, injuries (including broken bones) due to struggling against restraints, and even death. The psychological effects on victims of waterboarding can last for years after the procedure. "Waterboarding has been used in interrogations to obtain information, coerce confessions, punish and intimidate from at least as early as the Spanish Inquisition. Waterboarding gained recent attention and notoriety the CIA acknowledged using waterboarding in the interrogation of certain extrajudicial prisoners."

• • The policy on neutrality says we don't have to say "Hitler was evil". We can describe his statements and actions and let the intelligent reader reach their own conclusion. Similarly a lead that neutrally but unequivocally describes waterboarding lets intelligent readers make up their own minds as to whether or not it is torture. Geo Swan (talk) 16:21, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
    • Note that "evil" is a matter of description (and rather subjective at that), while "torture" is a matter of definition. Waterboarding is "torture" in the same way flute is a "musical instrument". It wouldn't make much sense to say: "Let's just describe the flute, what it does and how it works, and let the intelligent reader reach his own conclusion as to whether it's a musical instrument or not". GregorB (talk) 17:48, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose - Any absence of 'torture' in the main definition is due to political influence only.

Before it was discovered that US was performing this, would anyone be arguing against the torture label? If the US admitted to using other types torture, would those pages need to be un-tortured as well?

I agree with GregorB with the "Moon landing is considered by most sources to have actually happened" comparison.

Please look at the bigger picture.

This type of torture was used in the 1400's by the Spanish Inqusition, in the 1620s by the colonial Dutch East India Company, by the Japanese and the Germans during WW2, by the US in the late 1960s in Vietnam, by Cambodia in the 1970s, countries in Central America in the 1980s, and by the US in the early 2000s. In general, it is hard to argue against waterboarding being torture, as our society has defined it that way for a long time. (It may be easier to argue that the CIA technique is not waterboarding.... That may be helped by the lack of evidence/tapes). Historically waterboarding was torture. And historically will always be considered torture by a civilized society. Even if political press in a country convinces people to temporarily update the[REDACTED] page to say it is no more harmful than taking a shower. Eventually it would be corrected, in government and in public opinion. Hopefully, otherwise interrogation by US police or military may be taking steps back, centuries at a time. Nospam150 (talk) 02:07, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

editorial

Based on comments of Neutral Good in paragraphs above I suggest it is safe to assume he supports this change. I suggest this only due to announced holiday departure by Neutral Good for four days. This should not be decided without his voice heard. Shibumi2 (talk) 22:48, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

It's not a democracy - it is about consensus and persuasion, we can read his comments for ourselves above without you reposting on behalf of other editors. It is not like we will close this with a mass vote in the next few days - consensus takes time, he/she will get his/her chance. Inertia Tensor (talk) 22:56, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Based on comments on Talk and archives, 30+ strongly oppose - so what - they can speak for themselves if they wish.Inertia Tensor (talk) 22:56, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Sock puppet check on User:Neutral_Good

Can we get a sock puppet check on User:Neutral_Good. I am not saying it is a puppet, but would like to know for sure. Inertia Tensor (talk) 22:52, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

There is nothing more effective in destroying AGF and civility. Consider your decision carefully. Shibumi2 (talk) 22:56, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

I did. And I suggest you take your own advice, you waltzed in here, made a massive lead edit and left a post in talk instead of working to achieve consensus - right after we all spent months trying to get a lead out of protection. Inertia Tensor (talk) 22:59, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

And my reasoning that the benefits of checking outweighted any civility issues included THIS Row with Lawrence, plus this little bit of censorship (which is allowed, but suspect). I don't need to go into why I wonder about this account. Inertia Tensor (talk) 23:09, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

I do not think that "I would like to know for sure" is a good enough reason to do a checkuser. It is hard to believe that User:Inertia Tensor helped resolve any problems by initiating revert wars and by immediately asking for a checkuser on another editor that they disagreed with. Very aggressive and hostile behavior. --Blue Tie (talk) 00:39, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, assume good faith -- but, at what point does ignoring strong circumstantial indications stop being community building and transition into foolhardy community abandonment.

Lawrence Cohen left the question. "Have you edited previously under another account, by any chance? If so, what was it?"

Given that this is a brand new wiki-id -- just four days old; and 24 of its 30 edits were to this talk page, while the other 6 were edits about contributions to this talk page -- I think this request was reasonable;

I think the suggestion that a check user was in order was reasonable when this new contributor, with an edit pattern at odds with that of an inexperienced new user; but consistent with that of a experienced sockpuppet, declined to offer a reply to this reasonable query.

Nothing prevents Neutral Good from saying something like: "No, I am not a sockpuppet. Yes, I do have N months experience contributing to the wikipedia, from IP addresses in the xxx.xxx.yyy.yyy domain. I don't know why it took me N months of experience to get around creating my own ID." Geo Swan (talk) 17:54, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

The goal is to create a good article, not to win the argument

Please, everybody, as we participate in these heated discussions — keep in mind that our main goal here is to come up with an article that we can all (or nearly all) live with, not to convince each other to adopt our points of view. For example, it is extremely unlikely that anyone will persuade me that waterboarding is not torture. And I don't expect to ever persuade everyone in this discussion that waterboarding is torture. But neither of these things are necessary in order to achieve the main goal. So, arguing to convince each other (although it's an engaging and perhaps addictive activity) is often a waste of effort; it's also vastly harder than what we actually need to accomplish, and probably impossible.

I have made this mistake myself several times, so I don't claim innocence here. I'm just suggesting that we might be able to make better progress if we choose actions based more on trying to improve the article and less on trying to prove each other wrong. —Ka-Ping Yee (talk) 00:44, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

My only goal is a good article. My criticisms of the article have only been in that direction. I am not interested in getting anyone to believe one way or the other about waterboarding. The only argument I would try to win is to use[REDACTED] standards, particularly neutralility. --Blue Tie (talk) 00:48, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Waterboarding is torture is not a point a veiw, it's a fact. --Can Not (talk) 19:52, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

If you can provide sources, please add them to the ongoing RfC at Talk:Waterboarding/Definition. Jehochman 19:55, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I thought we already sourced the ENGLISH LANGUAGE and the DICTIONARY. The definition of torture actually covers the effects of waterTORTUREboarding. If US officials want to say its not torture, don't lie about it and say its not torture. Just say somewhere in the article that "US officials deny that this specific type of torture is torture." then we'll have fact infested article thats neutral and gives US their fair side of the story.--Can Not (talk) 14:00, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Inertia Tensors proposed Lead

thumb|right|300px|Painting of waterboarding from Cambodia's Tuol Sleng Prison Waterboarding is a form of torture which consists of immobilizing an individual and pouring water over his or her face to simulate drowning. Waterboarding has been used to coerce information and confessions, punish and/or intimidate. It elicits the gag reflex, and can make the subject believe his or her death is imminent while not causing physical evidence of torture.

The practice garnered renewed attention and notoriety in September 2006 when further reports charged that the Bush administration had authorized the use of waterboarding on extrajudicial prisoners of the United States, often referred to as "detainees" in the U.S. war on terror. ABC News reported that current and former CIA officers stated that "there is a presidential finding, signed in 2002, by President Bush, Condoleezza Rice and then-Attorney General John Ashcroft approving the 'enhanced' interrogation techniques, including water boarding."

• Strongly support. Inertia Tensor (talk) 01:06, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
• Comment - It is not made clear what (if anything) the editor believes is wrong with the current lead. Badagnani (talk) 01:07, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

It drones on, I'd rather support torture with refs linking below, not extra paragraphs. Inertia Tensor (talk) 01:11, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. Factually incorrect and biased. --Blue Tie (talk) 01:09, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose. Factually incorrect and biased. Shibumi2 (talk) 01:18, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose
  • I don't care whether the lead explicitly states waterboarding is torture. I like Shibumi's version, that mentioned its use by the Spanish Inquisition. I liked that his version offered a clearer description than this one.
  • But I am very concerned over any lead that perpetuates the deceit that waterboarding "simulates drowning". Waterboarding is drowning. The individual experiences the first stages of drowning. Their lungs fill with water. If waterboarding merely "simulated drowning" then not breaking off the technique would not put the subject at any risk. I think we all know this is not true.
  • This version of the lead states "...the subject feels their death is imminent". I think we all know that if the technique is not broken off the subject's death would be imminent. Geo Swan (talk) 08:43, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Problems with the article

I shall address the lead last

The article organization should be logical:

0. Lead

1. What Waterboarding is (description of various techniques)

2. Physical, psychological effects of Waterboarding (with consideration of the differences in technique included – for different techniques have different effects)

Include the sense of those who consider waterboarding effective for interrogation.

3. History of Waterboarding

4. Legal Status of Waterboarding (avoid using general condemnation of torture and instead use laws specifically outlining Waterboarding. These should not be just US but the English Speaking world and even the whole world.

5. Waterboarding and Torture

Views that it is torture

Views that it is not torture

Views that it depends upon some criteria as to whether it is torture

Discussion of the “stakes” claimed by each side (threats to security, threats to the integrity of the national reputation, etc)

Current article spends way too much time on the US and no time on the use of waterboarding by other countries or entities.

Current the article spends way too much time (undue weight) on the waterboarding of Kahlid Sheik Mohamed and Abu Zubaida. These should be combined into (at most) one paragraph.

The lead

The current lead assumes that waterboarding has only one technique. This is false.

The current lead states that waterboarding is torture. It is regarded as torture by some and regarded as not being torture by others.

The current lead describes the effects of waterboarding, but Chiefly for the most extreme form. It also relies upon only one biased source for those effects. This is undue weight and a violation of WP:NPOV.

That waterboarding is considered torture by a “wide range” of people is OR and Non-Neutral.

The group of people who consider waterboarding as torture is not balanced by mentioning that there is similar (if smaller) group of people who do not consider it torture. This is a violation of wp:NPOV.

The summary of the controversy is badly worded.

--Blue Tie (talk) 01:14, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose the majority of these suggestions - The crux of this argument is that the article is not "balanced" between those who state that waterboarding is a form of torture and those who state that it is not. There are two individuals--one a former U.S. attorney and the other a not particularly notable Internet columnist, who state that this technique may not be a form of torture. The rest of the sources state that it not only is a form of torture, but that it has been considered as such since the Spanish Inquisition. In light of this, there is no need to "balance" the article in the lead, by privileging the fringe position that waterboarding is not a form of torture. The article already states this, and does present the views of the former U.S. attorney and the not particularly notable Internet opinion columnist. The comment that more data should be collected and considered for inclusion in the article regarding the conducting of waterboarding in more locales around the world seems sensible. Badagnani (talk) 01:28, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Odd. There is nothing to "oppose"; I have not proposed specific changes. Instead I have criticized the structure and content of the current article. (are you opposing any criticism of the article?)

I was not addressing something about balance between two sides, I was referring to problems with the whole article regardless of which side of some dispute you were on. However, you are ignoring my 11 point list of sources describing waterboarding as either not torture or disputed as being torture. This is sufficient that[REDACTED] should not take a stand and state an opinion as though it were fact. Have you actually ever carefully read WP:NPOV?? We do not need to (and should not) declare something as evil. Just report on the matter and let the facts speak for themselves. --Blue Tie (talk) 01:37, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Badagnani you say "There are two individuals--one a former U.S. attorney and the other a not particularly notable Internet columnist, who state that this technique may not be a form of torture." That is inaccurate. John Yoo is former deputy assistant attorney general and now professor at Stanford University law school. At time of his memo (2002) CIA enhanced interrogation techniques included waterboarding. He discussed whether enhanced interrogation techniques violated international law prohibiting torture. He concluded they did not. Although he did not mention waterboarding it is not accurate to assume he was not discussing it. Shibumi2 (talk) 01:44, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

No his opinion is that POTUS has the right to define what the words in a treaty signed by POTUS means even if these are contry to the normal interpretation. Please stop mis-repesenting sources. 11:25, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

?

I really don't understand the continuing controversy about this. Here's how the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition, defines torture:

• Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.
• An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain.

• Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense.
• Something causing severe pain or anguish.

Waterboarding meets every one of the criteria in the definition: infliction, severe pain, punishment, coercion, instrument or method, excruciating, agony, suspense, anguish. Furthermore, the vast majority of reliable sources appear to agree that it's torture. Waterboarding is torture in the same way that water is wet, that carbon is an element, that Procyon is a star. Torture is the entire and only purpose of waterboarding.

To reiterate: I'm not taking any stance here, nor am I suggesting that Misplaced Pages should take a stance, as to whether waterboarding is wrong, right, good, evil, justifiable or unjustifiable. I'm just asserting that, according to the definitions in all well-known dictionaries, it's a form of torture.

Misplaced Pages's NPOV guidelines explicitly state that:

We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention as a majority view. Views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views. To give undue weight to a significant-minority view, or to include a tiny-minority view, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. Misplaced Pages aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation among experts on the subject, or among the concerned parties. This applies not only to article text, but to images, external links, categories, and all other material as well.

The fact that a small and very vocal minority -- both here, and in the world of verifiable sources -- disagree with this is definitely significant enough to mention in the article; indeed, significant enough to have its own section in the article. It is not, however, even remotely enough to justify its removal from the start of the opening sentence.

-- The Anome (talk) 01:40, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

What you are proposing is Original Research. Specifically Improper Synthesis. Misplaced Pages's articles and editors are not permitted to engage in Original Research if it is challenged -- and this one is. That you believe a view is held by a very small minority is your personal opinion... and your personal opinion is an EXTREMELY teensy tiny minority.

In short the article should conform to standards of wikipedia. Your proposal does not recognize those principles except in a select and narrow portion, rather than in totality to include "No Original Research". --Blue Tie (talk) 01:55, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - In fact, the "original research" is the claim that there is a "lighter," "less cruel" version (only used by agents of the U.S., and never by any other nation) that is not a form of torture. That claim is original research if I have ever seen it at any article at Misplaced Pages. The fact that waterboarding is described as a form of torture, because it is by definition, cannot by any stretch of the imagination be described as "original research," because it has been acknowledged not only as a form of torture, but one of the most famous and widely used modes of torture, for hundreds of years (as acknowledged by articles in all of the major media, and prosecutions during the Vietnam War, World War II, and other conflicts over the past century). Your arguments that waterboarding (or a purported "lighter," "less bad" version created and used only by the U.S.) are making progressively less and less sense. Badagnani (talk) 02:01, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

I have no problem with stating that Waterboarding has been considered torture by X,Y and Z (as long as we are not doing some sort of undue weight). But I have a problem with[REDACTED] declaring that it absolutely IS torture when that is disputed by A,B and C. How is this hard to understand in light of WP:NPOV? Have you read that policy?--Blue Tie (talk) 02:10, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm proposing that the English-language Misplaced Pages should be written in the English language. The English language has a word, let's call it xyglphg, which describes the type of thing that waterboarding is. Using it in the intro sentence is similar to saying "Carbon is an element..." or "Procyon is a star..." Now, it just so happens that the word xyglphg in English is spelled "torture". Some people don't like this. They would like to use a formulation, like "enhanced interrogation", which is a nicer spelling for xyglphg. I'm sure it would be nice if we could redefine the English language on demand to accommodate their desires. But we can't. -- The Anome (talk) 02:04, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

But it is original research to declare that waterboarding is xyglphg. In particular, it is inappropriate synthesis to do the following:

Waterboarding involves Treacle per source 1

Things that involve Treacle are xyglphg Per source 2

Thus Waterboarding is xyglphg Per synthesis.

This is defined in WP:OR. Take a look.--Blue Tie (talk) 02:07, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - There is no shortage of sources that state that waterboarding is a form of torture. Your semantic arguments "proving" that waterboarding is not a form of torture still does not make sense, in light of the massive weight of evidence already provided in the sources in the article. Badagnani (talk) 02:11, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Technically speaking there is a limit to the number of sources that declare waterboarding to be a form of torture. But you seem to be completely clueless about my point so let me be very precise:

1. I am not saying waterboarding is not torture.

2. I am not saying waterboarding should not be declared torture by some people.

3. I am not saying that there are insufficient sources saying waterboarding is torture.

Per[REDACTED] something is NOT A FACT IF IT IS DISPUTED. That is[REDACTED] policy. And[REDACTED] cannot declare something as fact if it is not a fact. Would you like to see the exact policy on this? --Blue Tie (talk) 02:18, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, please link the passage you are using for this argument. The idea that 1-5 people disagreeing with 100+ makes the 100+ factually inaccurate is nonsense. There are a minority of people that (and you can source this) say that the GWB administration ordered the "hit" on the World Trade Center. Go put that in the WTC articles and see what happens. Lawrence Cohen 04:15, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

A reminder

Misplaced Pages:NPOV#Undue weight

From Jimbo Wales, paraphrased from this post from September 2003 on the mailing list:

• If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts;
• If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents;
• If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Misplaced Pages (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it is true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not.

The position currently put forward in an energetic, yet notably source-poor mode, that "waterboarding is not a form of torture" and should not be described as such, clearly fails these criteria in light of the massive weight of evidence and sources stating that it is and has been considered a form of torture since the Spanish Inquisition and up to the Vietnam War (when at least one U.S. soldier was courtmartialed for conducting waterboarding) and Khmer Rouge era, yet we do include these viewpoints (by those either conducting or wishing to facilitate conducting it, either by twisting the English language or making a legalistic "end run" around international law) in the article. Thus, there seems to be no problem here. Badagnani (talk) 02:49, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

• Comment per the standard put forth by Badagnani, the level of the viewpoint is significant minority because it is easy to name prominent adherents. In addition, this policy needs to be read in conjunction with WP:ASF which clearly defines the statement "Waterboarding is a form of torture" as NOT A FACT. --Blue Tie (talk) 02:58, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

• Comment Where are commonly accepted reference texts to prove "waterboarding is torture" viewpoint is in majority? Current collection being called "overwhelming majority" by Badagnani and Inertia Tensor. These may be "vocal minority" not majority. How can we be sure? Do we have survey of all doctors and lawyers? If we make mistake it should be due to caution not recklessness. We must be neutral. Shibumi2 (talk) 03:46, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

For some reason there is a dispute over what the facts are. Some observations.

1. Waterboarding during the Spanish Inquisition is considered torture: fact.
2. The US itself has prosecuted people for implementing an activity we today call waterboarding: fact.
3. Prior to the Bush administration nobody, at least officially, voiced any doubts as to whether waterboarding is torture: fact.
4. Currently a huge majority of experts, and others, state that waterboarding is torture: fact.

With the above in mind it is difficult to understand on what grounds "waterboarding is torture" is considered controversial, i.e. not a fact. Nomen Nescio 09:08, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

You are apparently not reading the page here very well. Let me quote[REDACTED] policy about what a fact is: "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." You can read it yourself at WP:ASF. That waterboarding is torture is seriously disputed. So it is not a fact per[REDACTED] policy.

I add the following regarding your list of "facts":

1. Is it a fact that everyone considers waterboarding from the Spanish Inquisition to be torture? Is it a fact that the way that the inquisitors did it was the same as it is done today? Sources please for the answers to these questions. (Note that I am not asking for sources that say someone, somewhere thinks that the waterboarding during the Inquisition was torture. I am looking for sources that answer the questions I asked which is different).
2. Source please, that nobody, at least officially voiced any doubts as to whether waterboarding is torture. Where is the poll that proves this "fact"?
3. Agree. But also, others dispute it. That makes it not a "fact" per[REDACTED] policy.

--Blue Tie (talk) 11:18, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

The teach the controversy-crowd should understand that when a very small group of people advocate this is not torture, however vehemently, that does not a controversy make. Based on the figures -how many say it is and how many say it is not torture?- there is no dispute. Nomen Nescio 11:31, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Please cite the passage in[REDACTED] policy that says something is not disputed because of the size of the group disputing it? According to polls it is a minority - about 29% to 65% of the public as I recall. According to Jimbo it is a significant minority with notable members. According to policy the statement "Waterboarding is torture" is disputed. One only has to read numerous new articles on the topic to realize it is disputed. According to policy the statement is not a fact if it is disputed. That is the logic and it fits with[REDACTED] policy. How does your view fit with[REDACTED] policy? (Note that I have already covered the nature of the minority position as a notable or significant minority.) --Blue Tie (talk) 12:36, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

To adopt your logic means that when some clever PR-trick convinces 56% of the people that the earth is flat we then can no longer state it is not. Luckily in these matters public opinion is irrelevant and we only base our view of the world on expert opinion. Nomen Nescio 09:19, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

just a suggestion

{{editprotected}} can we reword brain damage in the lead as damage to the brain? Does that make any sense? Kushal 22:47, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

The sources mention the possibility of brain damage because, for human beings as well as other mammals, failing to breathe air leads to an oxygen deficiency in the blood (and, hence, the failure of oxygen to reach the brain). This can lead to brain damage. When waterboarding is conducted properly, the subject is unable to breathe, for either a shorter or longer period, depending on the occasion. As described above, this may lead to brain damage due to oxygen deficiency in the blood/brain. Badagnani (talk) 00:09, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

N Edit declined. I don't see the point of this edit. "Brain damage" and "damage to the brain" mean the same thing, and the former is probably better prose. Sandstein (talk) 21:15, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Consensus

Repeatedly, the statement is that we are reverting to a Consensus version.

The supposed "consensus" version is faulty and contrary to[REDACTED] policies. Now I quote from one of those policies:

"When consensus is referred to in Misplaced Pages discussion, it always means 'within the framework of established policy and practice'. Even a majority of a limited group of editors will almost never outweigh community consensus on a wider scale, as documented within policies. --WP:CON

So it is invalid to claim to be supporting consensus contrary to policy. --Blue Tie (talk) 01:29, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Please detail exactly what policy either Ka-Ping Yee's or my modified version of his lead violates, and be detailed. Let's get this settled once for all. People, please keep this focused. No one please add any useless nonsense or trolling like "I favor the US version" or "no one respects the United Nations", because that belongs on another website, not here. Let's focus, and if we can't resolve this, we'll simply have to go some sort of enforced mediation. Lawrence Cohen 01:33, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Allow me. This is a classic example of WP:COATRACK. The nominal topic is "Waterboarding." The real topic is "We loathe the Bush administration." You want an example of useless nonsense and trolling? Ask your pal Inertia Tensor why we should ignore John Yoo. And it looks like you're about to lose an evolved consensus, so your suggestion about mediation sounds like it might be sour grapes from a sore loser. 68.31.89.157 (talk) 03:56, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Which is why i asked for this article split between Waterboarding (torture) and Waterboarding in the "war on terror", though Torture and the "war on terror" would be less POV and we could include the Al Qaida/militia torture chambers (and mass graves). 09:44, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

You might want to remove those personal attacks. I've left a warning on your talk page. Lawrence Cohen 06:06, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Calling you POV pushers and NPOV violators isn't a personal attack. If anything, it's an understatement. I think calling Neutral Good a sock puppet is a far better example of a personal attack, but you didn't have a problem with it. Selective outrage is such a joy on this special morning. Merry Christmas. 68.31.210.220 (talk) 12:29, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

See comments below on User:Neutral Good's editing history. -- The Anome (talk) 15:05, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Spelling of Zubaida/Zubaydah

In subsection 4.2 of this article, the name of this individual is spelled as "Abu Zubaida". This spelling is used in a number of places in the subsection including the title. In one instance however, the name is spelled as "Abu Zubaydah".

It is my opinion that this is unencyclopedic and that it should be changed to a consistent spelling. I propose that the spelling be "Zubaida", as this spelling appears most frequently in the article, and as this is the current spelling of the title. If a source is every revealed that shows the other spelling to be more appropriate, then at that point the spelling could be changed throughout. Anber (talk) 06:13, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. There are far more contentious issues on this article. We should all try to find common ground wherever we can. 68.29.170.105 (talk) 12:45, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Is there any reason why this hasn't been acted on? It's really a no brainer IMO. Anber (talk) 03:51, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi there

I've returned from my holiday and I see that we have a consensus supporting Shibumi2's proposed lead. I am asking WP:ANI to make the proposed edit.

I also see that in my absence, a good editor was blocked for 24 hours for trying to help, full protection has been restored and a false sock puppet accusation has been made. In spite of this misconduct, I hope that we can continue to work together to make this a Good Article. Neutral Good (talk) 03:04, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I see that there is no consensus for this and left a note on ANI. Lawrence Cohen 04:07, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, it appeared that there was a consensus last night. Neutral Good (talk) 01:54, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I concur with Lawrence on this. It's interesting to note that User:Neutral Good's contributions have so far been limited to editing this page, and that they appear to have instantly grasped Misplaced Pages's social and technical conventions without any learning curve, strongly suggesting that this is a single-purpose account created by an experienced editor for the purpose of astroturfing this page. Over to ANI... -- The Anome (talk) 14:01, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

...and see also Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/Haizum. -- The Anome (talk) 17:28, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Let's see how that works out for you. Neutral Good (talk) 01:54, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Yet more people who say its torture

• American Psychological Association :-
• Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy :-

Thats a few hundred more Ph.d's. 20:33, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

It isn't the APA. It's just Division 39 of the APA, representing New York City, one of the most liberal cities in North America. One might as well pretend that the next presidential election will be decided by counting the votes of registered members of the Socialist Workers' Party. I will remind you that the APA, alone among the many affected professional organizations, has decided to allow its members to be present during CIA interrogations. That may guive you a clue about how the APA as a whole would decide the question of whether waterboarding is torture. For the Stanford Encyclopedia, there appear to be only two people who contributed the torture definition for the article: Michael Davis and David Sussman. Neutral Good (talk) 01:52, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh they are from New york well that explains it. 11:53, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Shibumi2 second attempt at new article lead

Neutral Good invite me to come back. I try again to make article lead with concerns of Geo Swan and Ka-Ping Yee addressed. I also address concerns of Blue Tie.

Waterboarding consists of immobilizing a person on his or her back, in many cases with the head inclined downward, and pouring water over the face and into the breathing passages. Although waterboarding can be performed in ways that leave no lasting physical damage, Human Rights Watch has claimed that it carries the risks of pain, physical injuries, and even death. The psychological effects on victims of waterboarding can last for years after the procedure.

Waterboarding has been used in interrogations to obtain information and coerce confessions at least as early as the Spanish Inquisition. It has also been used to punish and intimidate. Waterboarding gained recent attention and notoriety in the United States when the press reported that the CIA had used waterboarding in the interrogation of terrorist leaders, such as Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Abu Zubaidah. and that the Justice Department had authorized this procedure.

Please indicate below whether you support or oppose this version of the article lead.

If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Misplaced Pages contributors. Misplaced Pages has policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and consensus (agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes. However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to assume good faith on the part of others and to sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end. Note: Comments may be tagged as follows: suspected single-purpose accounts: {{subst:spa|username}}; suspected canvassed users: {{subst:canvassed|username}}; accounts blocked for sockpuppetry: {{subst:csm|username}} or {{subst:csp|username}}.

Statements of support or opposition, December 27-28

• Strongly support. Shibumi2 (talk) 23:50, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Comment I'd just like to say that every honest hard working wikipedian like Shibumi2 should be made to feel welcome and i want you to stay and edit wikipedia. 00:05, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Lawrence Cohen 00:06, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. Welcome back! htom (talk) 00:18, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose - This is most unsatisfactory as the first sentence does not say what it is (a form of torture); saying what it is should precede its description, just as an article about the xylophone would not begin "The xylophone is a collection of hardwood bars on a frame, that are struck with sticks"; instead, it would more logically say "The xylophone is a mallet percussion instrument, consisting of a collection of hardwood bars on a frame, that are struck with sticks." From an examination of the proposing editor's earlier discussion, both here and in this discussion page's archive, s/he does not wish the word "torture" to be included, for the apparent, strongly POV reason that if the U.S. is currently practicing this, it cannot possibly be a form of torture, because the U.S. would presumably be doing it for "good" purposes, against "bad people," in a very special manner that is completely different, "better," and significantly "less cruel" than when it is practiced by agents of the Khmer Rouge, Imperial Japan, or other foreign nations. This is all politically driven POV, which can be analyzed in other portions of the article, but the willful exclusion of the term "torture" from the lead would be an unacceptable privileging of a fringe, political, POV opinion regarding this well-understood and well-documented subject. It's time to stop this POV and actually get around to filling this article out with well sourced, historical documentation about this practice, to make the article even better. Months and months of constant, strongly political/POV attempts to remove a word that represents the very definition of this practice (i.e., "torture") is unhelpful and keeping the article from significant improvement. Badagnani (talk) 00:04, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose Again, excluding all references to torture as an accepted description of what the practice is, keeps this from moving past POV to NPOV. Lawrence Cohen 00:06, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Support!! Best effort so far. All sources cited and discussed in the previous lead can be discussed farther down in the article. Thanks for coming back, Shibumi2. They can't keep a good man down. 70.9.160.37 (talk) 01:06, 28 December 2007 (UTC) This template must be substituted.
• Strong Support Only by eliminating POV can the article's lead be made NPOV. That you happen to agree with the POV doesn't mean that it's not a POV. If you must have "torture" and condemnation of the activity as the subject of the third or fourth paragraph that might make more sense. Defining or describing something as torture is POV. Describe the activity, and then condemn the use of it. Don't confuse or confound the two. htom (talk) 00:17, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - The statement "describing something as torture is POV" is as illogical as stating that "describing something as a musical instrument is POV." It is certainly not POV, it is NPOV and encyclopedic because it is verifiable. If you feel so strongly about this, you should probably attempt to change the title of Rack (torture). If Misplaced Pages existed during the Spanish Inquisition and editors affiliated with the official Inquisitors of the Roman Catholic Church began contributing to the discussion page and asserting that since this technique was being used for a greater good (purging the Church of heresy), and should not be considered torture, we might note this opinion in the section about the technique's use during the Spanish Inquisition, but we would not then (as now) privilege this fringe, POV, opinion, as held by its practitioners, in the lead, as against the verifiable definition of the practice. Badagnani (talk) 00:23, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
• CommentIt would make more sense to change this article to Waterboarding (Torture), then you could just assume that people coming to the article know what the activity is. Saying that it is torture is not descriptive of the action, it is POV about the action. htom (talk) 00:39, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
• Comment - This would be illogical and unnecessary, as the term "waterboarding" has only one meaning in the English language (a well known form of torture dating back to the Spanish Inquisition), while "rack" has multiple meanings, necessitating that article title for the meaning that is a form of torture. Badagnani (talk) 00:42, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
• Comment - I take that back; I'd forgotten that the "Uncyclopedia" defines waterboarding as an extreme sport similar to surfing, which is practiced off the coast of the Gaza Strip. I'm not sure if that's true, though, as from what I have heard Uncyclopedia's standards are not as stringent regarding verifiability as are Misplaced Pages's. Badagnani (talk) 00:44, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
• Comment - Expert opinions differ on the issue of whether waterboarding is torture. Expert opinions do not differ on whether a xylophone is a musical instrument. Neutral Good (talk) 01:01, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
• Comment - Having one or two experts voicing opposition against a 100+ other experts cannot be described as Expert opinions differ, it simply does not a controversy make! Nomen Nescio 12:19, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
• CommentThat there is verifiable support by thousands of a POV does not make that not a POV.htom (talk) 16:03, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

• At the same end, we will not give voice to minority viewpoints above what is accepted, sourced consensus outside of Misplaced Pages's editors politics. Or else, articles such as Intellegient Design would be filled with pro-religion rubbish. Lawrence Cohen 16:09, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

• Strongly support. The question of whether it's torture or not can be discussed in the body of the article. This is the lead. It must be as neutral as possible. Welcome back, Shibumi2. Neutral Good (talk) 01:01, 28 December 2007 (UTC) This template must be substituted.

• Comment - That is exactly why we are excluding politically motivated, POV fringe opinions that are at odds with the very definition of this practice from the lead, per WP policy. Badagnani (talk) 01:04, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
• Comment - You mean politically motivated, POV fringe opinions like Human Rights Watch? Or politically motivated, fringe opinions from 100 law professors whose previously published writings indicate membership in the lunatic left-wing fringe? You mean politically motivated, POV fringe opinions like those? Neutral Good (talk) 01:10, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I'll be inclined to take your classification of these opinions seriously when you can present any reliable evidence that most or all of these 110 or so law professors belong to the "lunatic left-wing fringe". Name-calling isn't going to convince anyone. —Ka-Ping Yee (talk) 08:03, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - If I had meant those opinions, I would not have added "that are at odds with the very definition of this practice," because those opinions are consistent with the very definition of this practice. The political motivations to which I was referring are those commentators (for National Review and similar publications, and two known Republican U.S. legislators), who are claiming waterboarding to not be a form of torture, against the well-understood definition of the practice, simply because they wish the U.S. to be able to use the technique against "bad" people, and not be prosecuted for it (the way all four branches of the U.S. military prosecutes its own personnel for doing). Badagnani (talk) 01:15, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Odd how you had to use quotes around "bad" as though that needed to be qualified as opinion, and yet you want waterboarding to be defined as torture without qualifications. -- Randy2063 (talk) 01:24, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I noticed that too, Randy. Putting quotation marks around a word like that indicates that the author doesn't believe use of that word is legitimate in this context. For God's sake, I don't think any reasonable person doubts for a moment that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the architect of the 9/11 atacks, (refactor WP:BLP violation). Neutral Good (talk) 01:34, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Its called sarcasm americans! IF Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is so guilty you should be able to get a conviction in a quaint british tradition called "A fair trial". If you knew anything about say Khalid El-Masri or Lotfi Raissi you know why no-one trusts a thing the USA gov says on terrorism. 11:53, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

The laws of war are also part of the British tradition. If you actually read them (alas, few people do read them beyond the "competent tribunal" part) you might notice that a fair trial is required for punishment, not interrogation or detainment.

That's a separate issue, of course, but it shows how far from the texts your position is.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 14:41, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, according to jus in bello untill a detainee has been brought before a competent tribunal he/she is considered to be a POW. AFAIK all POW's are protected by Geneca and as such any so-called enhanced interrogation is considered a war crime. Which of course explains the sudden need to muddy the waters and why coincidentally the evidence of possible war crimes appears to have been destroyed. Nomen Nescio 15:08, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Do you have any proof that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed hasn't already been brought before a competent tribunal? The Third Geneva Convention doesn't require that the tribunal must be announced in advance in The Guardian, or that it must be open to reporters from The Guardian, or even that results must be announced to The Guardian. It only requires that the detainee's status must be decided by a competent tribunal. Call it a secret court if you insist on that innuendo, but that is all the law requires. 209.221.240.193 (talk) 15:39, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

The whole point of a competent tribunal is to be open to groups like the ICRC, with three officers putting their names (and hence reputations) to the proceeding so we know who passed judgement. KSM has not had a compitent tribunal otherwise the US Gov would say if he is a Combatant or a Civilian, the ONLY two things you can be classified under GCIII. 17:05, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

"The laws of war are also part of the British tradition" Which were violated in the case of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed by his disapperence into the CIA's black sites by not allowing him (and the others) access to ICRC personnel (something even the nazis managed). I bet you can't even name what Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's status is under the GCIII? 15:10, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

At most, KSM's status under the GCs might be a "detainee" under GC4.

Even if the Supreme Court had said the whole of the GCs applied (which they haven't), a competent tribunal is not the same thing as a fair trial. It's not even close.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 15:46, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

• Support. 68.29.174.61 (talk) This template must be substituted.
• Strongly support. -- Randy2063 (talk) 01:24, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
• Strongly support. PennState21 (talk) 12:26, 28 December 2007 (UTC) This template must be substituted.
• Oppose. I'll take up the proposed changes in this lead one at a time. This new lead:

• Deletes the sentence: "Through forced suffocation and inhalation of water, the subject experiences the process of drowning in a controlled environment and is made to believe that death is imminent." I object. This is a factual statement that describes the process and experience of waterboarding; there is no good reason to remove it.
• Deletes the sentence: "In contrast to merely submerging the head face-forward, waterboarding almost immediately elicits the gag reflex." I object, again for the same reason. This sentence is significant because of the common confusion between waterboarding and dunking in water; that distinction is an important part of understanding what waterboarding is.
• Replaces: "it carries the risks of extreme pain, damage to the lungs, brain damage caused by oxygen deprivation, injuries (including broken bones) due to struggling against restraints, and even death" with "Human Rights Watch has claimed that it carries the risks of pain, physical injuries, and even death." I object, though in a qualified manner. The original sentence could be improved, as it is not an exact representation of the cited source (the HRW letter). But it is also closer to a true description of the effects of waterboarding than the new sentence. The best option would be to bring the sentence and the citation into agreement by using a directly supported quotation such as "According to Dr. Allen S. Keller, Director of the Bellevue/NYU Program for Survivors of Torture, waterboarding carries the 'real risk of death from actually drowning or suffering a heart attack or damage to the lungs from inhalation of water'.
• Collapses: "Waterboarding has been used in interrogations at least as early as the Spanish Inquisition. It has been used for interrogation purposes, to obtain information, coerce confessions, punish, and intimidate." into "Waterboarding has been used in interrogations to obtain information and coerce confessions at least as early as the Spanish Inquisition. It has also been used to punish and intimidate." I don't have any problems with this.
• Deletes the sentence: "Today it is considered to be torture by a wide range of authorities, including legal experts, politicians, war veterans, intelligence officials, military judges, and human rights organizations." I strongly object. This whitewashes the article of the established majority consensus on the issue.
• Replaces: "certain extrajudicial prisoners" with "terrorist leaders, such as Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Abu Zubaidah." I don't see why these need to be mentioned by name in the lead. This is too much detail on the U.S.-specific controversy rather than the procedure itself. It seems wrong to me to add the names of individual prisoners and yet have no references to experts on torture, interrogation, or the law.
• Deletes the sentence: "The new controversy surrounded the confirmed use of waterboarding by the United States government on alleged terrorists, and whether the practice was acceptable." This is fine with me.

On the whole I oppose this new lead; the present lead is much better at describing the procedure and its effects in a clear and accurate way. —Ka-Ping Yee (talk) 04:34, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Oppose for the same reasons stated above by Ka-Ping Yee. Remember (talk) 14:18, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I can see nothing at all wrong with the current lead section. It is properly sourced and has no POV issues i can see. I think some people involved in this discussion need to be reminded that NPOV does not mean no point of view it means neutral point of view. The policy means that an article should not express views of editors this doesnt mean it cannot express views of sources as long as none are given undue weight. --neonwhite user page talk 05:06, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

• Strongly Oppose The new lead effectively says ' one group of whiny bitches say it's torture, but it's been around for years, and the US of A (rah rah) Only uses it on Bad People(tm).'. There's a stack of citations calling it torture, and none which actually flat out say 'waterboarding is not torture'. Even the US Gov't is famously good at dodging that issue. Almost everyone asked has stated they aren't the right person to ask about that, not definitive 'no it's not' answers. That it's torture belongs in the lead. ThuranX (talk) 06:44, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

• Comment "... and none which actually flat out say 'waterboarding is not torture'." You're lying. Both Congressman Poe and Congressman Tancredo have said flat out that waterboarding is not torture. In a survey, 29% of the American people have said flat out that waterboarding is not torture. There are no surveys of other population groups to support a claim that "everyone else agrees that it's torture." Neutral Good (talk) 12:16, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

• In his book Pale Blue Dot, Carl Sagan writes that, in a 1989 US survey, when asked whether an automobile tire can feel anything, only 73 percent of the respondents said "no" (Sagan also notes that's down from 90% in 1954). So much for popular opinion. Frankly, I can't imagine what would tire article look like if this "fact" was used in its intro (or anywhere, for that matter). GregorB (talk) 14:38, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

• Comment Please point out the memo that says that the vox populi and not experts (i.e. lawyers, doctors, et cetera) that get to decide what is and what is not torture? Or should we ignore that observation as being a logical fallacy? Nomen Nescio 13:30, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose whenever it takes the lead 5 pages (hyperbole) merely to avoid the elephant in the room from appearing in that lead we can conclude 1 the article deteriorates because what could be a succinct statement becaomes a tortured (pun intended) grammatical disaster, 2 not mentioning what every expert refusing to protect the Bush administration states as fact is a violation of WP:FRINGE, WP:WEIGHT, WP:SPAM and above all common sense. Nomen Nescio 09:33, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose All the reasons mentioned above and for the last month. 11:55, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

• Strong support. 209.221.240.193 (talk) 14:16, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

• CommentOppose The statement "waterboarding can be performed in ways that leave no lasting physical damage" requires a reliable medical source, which I doubt you will find, for the simple reason that it is impossible to perform any physical act of violence in a way that guarantees no physical damage. What if the victim has a weak heart, or genetic susceptibility to heart attack? An accurate statement might be "waterboarding may or may not result in lasting physical damage, or even death, depending on the severity of the attack, and victim's constitution and disposition". Chris Bainbridge (talk) 15:47, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. Good in some respects (brief and to the point, if anything), seriously flawed in other: 1) no mention of suffocation, the essence of waterboarding, 2) current events trivia - Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Abu Zubaidah - why are their names important here? (Still, the current events bit is brief, which I think is good.) And finally: we learn that waterboarding "carries the risks of pain, physical injuries, and even death" and that psychological effects "can last for years after the procedure" - which is funny, because that's just like torture. GregorB (talk) 17:41, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

• Comment There are different waterboarding techniques. If done with great care for the safety of the detainee, it appears to me that there is no risk of physical pain, injury or death. Which is funny because that's absolutely nothing like torture at all. 209.221.240.193 (talk) 17:52, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

. We won't build articles on editor opinions. Source? Lawrence Cohen 17:54, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

The anonymous editor was probably referring to mock execution, another non-torture method. (Sorry about the sarcasm, I sometimes can't resist...) GregorB (talk) 21:33, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. Same problems. The avoidance of 'torture' avoids the actual definition of waterboarding. Waterboarding was defined as a form of torture around the world (and even in the US prior to 2001 or 2002). After it was discovered that the US was using waterboarding was when a redefinition was attempted. Torture was a bad word, so it was desired that it be called an "enhanced interrogation technique" (a euphemism for torture). If the procedure that the CIA uses another technique that is not painful and is not intended to coerce confessions, then perhaps a new page should be created: Waterboarding (Post 2001 CIA interrogation technique). Such a page would require sources that explain how it is different from past waterboarding, and what precise parts of the definition of torture does it fail to meet.Nospam150 (talk) 20:44, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

CommentFirst of all, I think all this focus on the lead is a mistake. The body of the article should be written first and then the lead can take shape more easily. BUT, recognizing the attention given to the lead, I would say this current lead is "OK' in what it says but not OK in what it does not say. It states that waterboarding always involves pouring water into the breathing passages. Yet the article and the references do not support that statement. The article (and the lead) fail to review evidence of its effectiveness. Also, this new lead completely ignores the dynamic and strong debate over whether or when Waterboarding is torture. This should be included because it is such an important part of the story. I believe it should be a final paragraph. --Blue Tie (talk) 04:15, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

"dynamic and strong debate over whether or when Waterboarding is torture"?? I think I saw that debate. One side said it was torture, and the other refused to answer the question for reasons of national security. As for the debate about 'When' it is torture, well there is no debate, right? Before the year 2001, it is torture, after 2001, it is interrogation. Or does someone have a source before 2001 claiming that it is not torture? Sorry for the sarcasm. As for the first point, perhaps you have a point if the primary definition does not generally match the historical uses of the waterboarding term. But I would also hope that meaningless concepts like "drowning simulations" also be avoided. Nospam150 (talk) 07:06, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Statements of support or opposition, December 29-30

• ’’’Support.’’’ 69.204.119.171 (talk) 02:13, 30 December 2007 (UTC) This template must be substituted.

Comment That vote makes it 9-8 in favor of the new lead. I do not know how much of a majority we need for the America bashers to admit that we have a consensus, but it's time to start discussing that question. Neutral Good (talk) 02:21, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

We don't vote on content on Misplaced Pages. Lawrence Cohen 02:57, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Also, I consider being called an "American basher" a personal attack. Lawrence Cohen 02:58, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. For the reasons above. I cannot fathom that this discussion is even taking place. Perhaps a link to denialism is in order... Archer3 (talk) 03:01, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a democracy, it works by consensus. I would be a good idea for you to read WP:CON to gain a better understanding of what a consensus is. You're quite blatent bias is extremely harmful to your argument as it makes it look very much like you are pushing a non-neutral POV. This article is not about the US, the US only features in minor parts of the article. There are no policy issues with the lead so i can see no reason to change it. It reads very well. --neonwhite<;;;small> user page talk 03:01, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• ’’’Support.’’’ - Qualified support. The term "torture" in this context is not an objective noun, but a subjective word with a decidedly negative implication of illegality. I do tend to agree with the "opposed" comment above which said that the description from the HRW should be more exactly provided as a quotation with citation; I support fixing it so that it's clear the description is FROM a source, rather than an objective fact. Maybe some people would like to pretend "torture" is simply a descriptive word, but the real elephant in the room isn't that the technique is a clearly coercive technique, but that labelling it "torture" is tantamount to passing judgment on the morality of it's use, and it is THAT connotation that makes the lead as it now stands a biased POV. You can put the facts in the article, everybody will come to their own conclusions, and nobody will read the first line and think "I hate how the left has taken over Wiki". Seems like a win-win to me.71.114.17.179 (talk) 04:45, 30 December 2007 (UTC) This template must be substituted.

Any negative understanding of the word is a personal POV only, at no point does the article express any POV on it. It has a defintion that fits. A word does not have any morality. A person bases that on their own morality and we are not here to decide how people interpret a particular word. The lead is completely neutral in tone. --neonwhite user page talk 06:04, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - If you feel so strongly that "torture" is not a word with a clear and well-understood definition in the English language, and that the definition of every form of torture, regardless of its historical consideration as such, may be redefined either as torture, or not, according to the individual, you had better try to change the title of the article Rack (torture). You should also eliminate most of the text from the Torture article, which does define torture quite clearly. Badagnani (talk) 04:56, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

And if he supports the war in Iraq he should trot right down to a recruiting office, right? Because if he doesn't head off to boot camp right away, he's a hypocrite, right? Pardon me, but each individual has the right to express an opinion and take action of his own choosing, and at a time of his own choosing, supporting that opinion (or take no action at all). Neutral Good (talk) 05:11, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I have marked all the single purpose accounts who voted on the proposal. This is not a vote, and there is a definite possibility of sock puppetry going on here for the purpose of vote stacking. If we disregard the SPAs, there is a strong consensus against the new lede. Jehochman 05:13, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

The topic of waterboarding is "in the news." Frankly, I'm surprised that we don't have a lot more so-called SPA IP accounts editing on this page. Also, IP editors could be using an ISP that is highly dynamic. On one evening, we saw four different IPs starting with "68" editing on this page, all exhibiting the same consistent train of thought; and only one of them voted in consensus. (Thanks to the body cavity search that is now being performed on every editor who disagrees with Lawrence Cohen, everyone now knows that I am  Unrelated to all of them.) An IP editor (or a new account like mine) that appears to have only a few previous edits (or none at all) could have an extensive editing history under other IPs (like me).

But those who prefer to believe that a conspiracy exists will always believe that a conspiracy exists, and will continue to pretend that WP:BITE and WP:AGF and WP:NPOV are not Misplaced Pages policy - or, at least, that such policies do not apply to them. Neutral Good (talk) 05:30, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

First, there is absolutely nothing wrong with an SPA. We welcome new editors and are pleased to have them. However, new editors may not be so familiar with policy, and occasionally they are recruited in hopes that they will edit to a particular point of view. As a new editor, if you need an help editing Misplaced Pages or understanding policies, feel free to visit my talk page. Jehochman 06:00, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

You said, "If we disregard the SPAs, there is a strong consensus against the new lede." If "there is absolutely nothing wrong with an SPA," why are you suggesting that they should be disregarded? Neutral Good (talk) 06:08, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Its called meatpuppetry Neutral, of the new IPs and Users suddenly all turning up here only PennState looks like a real person. 14:50, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

It's called "In The News," Hypnosadist. Because the subject of waterboarding is In The News, Internet users who have never used Wiki before are looking up "waterboarding" with Google and other search engines, and finding this Misplaced Pages article prominently listed. Since it's In The News, there may even be a university professor or two (or more) using this article as a class assignment for his students. But they can't edit the article to correct the POV bias in the lead, despite the claim that this is "the encyclopedia that anyone can edit." Some of them are curious enough to start clicking on those blue-labeled tabs across the top of the article mainspace page, and 1find their way here.

There are going to be some Senate hearings investigated the CIA's destruction of the videotapes taken when two high-value detainees were waterboarded in 2002. When those Senate hearings are broadcast live on C-SPAN, and the most mean-spirited soundbites are packaged and broadcast on every news broadcast in the Western world, you can expect another wave of new editors here. That is the nature of editing an article about a controversy as the controversy unfolds. Neutral Good (talk) 15:06, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

"That is the nature of editing an article about a controversy as the controversy unfolds" Thats the problem right there, this page should not be about some political wrangle in the US, but about the method of torture called waterboarding. Not if waterboarding is torture under US law. 16:41, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

If you are correct, then the distribution of voting amongst the new SPAs will be not be radically different from longterm editors. If, however, the vast majority of new SPAs are voting one particular way, then votestacking is clearly taking place. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 15:13, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps the distribution of voting amongst the new SPAs is radically different from long-term editors, because a group of POV-pushing long-term editors here is trying to WP:OWN the article. In other words, perhaps it's the sample of long-term editors that's skewed, rather than the sample of new SPAs. Isn't that a possibility, Chris? After all, look at some of the comments on the RFC by Wandalstouring, Terraxos and Roger Davies. Neutral Good (talk) 15:33, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

As is pointed out on WP:MEAT, meatpuppetry is pointless as[REDACTED] works by consensus not by votes. New users who demonstrate misunderstanding and unfamiliarity with[REDACTED] policies are unlikely to add much weight to a consensus and will likely have their opinions disregarded. Experienced editors with a history of good editing are likely to have their opinion taked more seriously. Your accusations of POV are very unwise, as the says goes 'don't throw stones if you live in a glass house'. --neonwhite user page talk 15:58, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

It is flagrant sockpuppetry. Notice how all these new SPAs are all signing ’’’Support.’’’ with that exact same formatting. I haven't seen that formatting used before on any page here, and suddenly three different people do it within a short time period of each other, is a sign of something being done that is untoward. Three random, unrelated people all have the same typo is beyond the realm of possibility. Perhaps someone will want to post to WP:ANI, indicating the problem here. Lawrence Cohen 15:46, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Whether it is meatpuppetry or sockpuppetry is unknown, i agree that it seems unlikely that a new user would randomly arrive at this talk page as a beginning but it is not impossible for a new user to create an account to add a comment to a particular discussion they feel strongly about. Though on studying the page i think it is very likely and there is significant evidence for a notice board report considering the repeated erroneous formatting. --neonwhite user page talk 15:58, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• ’’’Support.’’’ GooseCreek (talk) 05:19, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Nice to have you editing again after 8 months. 14:46, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• ’’’Support.’’’ 71.225.55.193 (talk) 06:35, 30 December 2007 (UTC) — 71.225.55.193 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Thanks for making your first edit here. 14:46, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• Reluctant support. Although my opinion is that the Bush Administration is the rise of a new fascism, and that waterboarding is indeed torture, we cannot editorialise in an encyclopaedia. Some experts say that it isn't torture in all cases, or that they are uncertain. An encyclopaedia, if it is truly neutral, must be uncertain as well. Harry Lives! (talk) 16:27, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Oi! If I'm to be labeled a 'single purpose account,' then my single purpose is making Harry Potter articles even more brilliant. I found this one on Recent Changes. Thanks. Harry Lives! (talk) 18:21, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Comment That makes it 13-9 in favor of the new lead. Even if we concede the sock puppetry allegation by Lawrence (who has been proven to make false accusations of sock puppetry) and disregard the IP editors who are all making the same typo, it's still 10-9 in favor of the new lead. Neutral Good (talk) 16:42, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

And its still not a vote! 16:58, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Neutral Good, you are being disruptive. Please stop this now. There is no consensus for a new lead. Thank you. Jehochman 17:22, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose. I believe that to be neutral, the lead must mention the word 'torture' somewhere. It doesn't have to say 'waterboarding is torture' - indeed, it shouldn't, as that would be non-neutral. But to ignore the word altogether is to ignore the very thing that makes it controversial. It should say 'waterboarding is considered by many (references) to be a form of torture' or something along those lines; anything less would look like it was trying to escape the real issue here. Terraxos (talk) 17:48, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

(If it's worth mentioning, I was invited to comment on this poll by User:Neutral Good.) Terraxos (talk) 17:48, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry

Multiple accounts, including Shibumi2 (talk · contribs) have been blocked for sockpuppetry. See Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/GooseCreek. The above discussion is probably tainted and should not be used to establish consensus. Jehochman 19:29, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

What you've probably got there is a university professor who assigned this article as some sort of class project. That would explain the shared IP address, the choice of the name "PennState21" by one editor, and Shibumi2's unexplained departure from his usual focus on Japanese Navy articles. I observe for the record that once again, I have been found to be  Unrelated to any sock puppet activity; and of the nine editors who were dragged over to RFCU, only four were found to be related. (That means that each and every one of the other five are  Unrelated if you are math challenged.) Thanks for your obedience to WP:AGF and WP:BITE, by the way. Neutral Good (talk) 20:33, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Two elements to add to article

Rather than deciding what *not* to include in the article, here are some elements to add, to help fill out the pre-2004 use of waterboarding, which does need more detail.

• The U.S. soldier courtmartialed for waterboarding in 1968 was part of the U.S. Army's 1st Cavalry Division.
• Waterboarding was identified as a crime in 1901, when the Army judge advocate general court-martialed Major Edwin Glenn of the 5th U.S. Infantry for waterboarding, a technique he called "torture." Badagnani (talk) 01:41, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

WP:RS for the second claim, please? Thanks. Neutral Good (talk) 01:43, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

The Glenn practice may have been water cure; this needs to be cross-checked with contemporaneous sources. This will likely take some library research; do you have access to a library containing microfilms of major U.S. newspapers from 1901? It would be great if we could all collaborate on making this the best, most comprehensive and well-sourced article possible, not focusing entirely on the post-2004 uses of this practice. Badagnani (talk) 01:46, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I see--a detailed description from that time period is here. It appears nearly identical to waterboarding, save for the stick or carbine barrel being jammed into the mouth to keep the mouth open, rather than using a rag or cloth for this purpose, and the large volume (up to many gallons) of water. The same description is already in the Water cure article. Badagnani (talk) 01:49, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Alllll rightee then. You are more than welcome to add this to the Water cure article, where it belongs. Thanks. Neutral Good (talk) 01:56, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I had said, just two inches above, that "the same description is already in the Water cure article." Thus, your recommendation that I do so would not be necessary, as it is already there. Badagnani (talk) 02:01, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Note that some of the examples in both this article and the water cure article are misclassified. I brought the issue up last week on this Talk page but the discussion has already been archived by someone (even though it was active). I was waiting for this page to be unprotected before swapping them over, but it appears that could be a while. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 22:45, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

RFC?

Seeing the utter lack of respect for consensus among sources and editors here would it be an idea to start a RFC where we again present how many sources say it is and how many explicitly say it is not torture? Then we can ask outside input as to whether or not a multitude of sources are sufficient to state in the lead it is torture. Nomen Nescio 09:45, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Probably. It appears that politics are more important than policy here, so perhaps more people need to be brought in. Lawrence Cohen 14:15, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

One question to all contributors here: does anybody deny that the overwhelming majority of experts, not citizens, state it is torture? Is it not at least 100:1? Unless we can agree on that I am going to start a RFC explicitly aimed at determining

1. how many experts exactly say it is and how many say it is not?
2. that, if most experts think it is torture (see point 1) would keeping it out of the lead not violate WP:WEIGHT and WP:FRINGE? See Intelligent Design for how that article adopts the view of a tiny, extremely vocal minority.

Respectfully Nomen Nescio 15:23, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

WP:LEAD says "The lead should be capable of standing alone as a concise overview of the article, establishing context, summarizing the most important points, explaining why the subject is interesting or notable, and briefly describing its notable controversies, if there are any." I think there is a notable controversy in the U.S. about use of waterboarding and it should be mentioned in the lead. We don't have to say experts are divided about whether it is torture, but I think we should say supporters of the Bush administration position are arguing that waterboarding is acceptable in some situations. The details should be fleshed out in the body of the article.--agr (talk) 15:46, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

The number of verifiable supporters of a POV makes that POV popular, or not popular; it does not make that POV into an NPOV. Both "Waterboarding is torture" and "Waterboarding is not torture" are POV. The statement "Waterboarding is considered to be torture by many" is less POV, because it reveals that it is opinion, not being, that is being discussed. htom (talk) 16:12, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - This is utter nonsense, as waterboarding is torture by definition, having been considered as such by every nation dating back to the Spanish Inquisition. This is sourced and verifiable. It's now time to move on and actually improve/expand the article (particularly historical uses of this technique, which need more detail and sources), as was requested yesterday. You did not take me up on this offer, and I will make it again. Badagnani (talk) 18:04, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I'll agree it could be 100:1 if we acknowledge that we're really only talking about vocal critics. Of those (like the 100 law profs), most tend to be left wing, and a few are extremists. They would be criticizing U.S. policy anyway no matter what it is. And so 100:1 is to be expected.

Who believes that's good enough for Misplaced Pages?

In reality, most of the critics we're talking about are detatched from the reality of any consequences from their actions. We've seen that some of these same critics had supported waterboarding when it was secret, and they say they assumed it was legal. But put it out in the open and they'll suddenly follow the political winds.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 16:09, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I am confused. Are you saying

1. The fact experts say it is torture proves they are radical leftwing fundamentalists?
2. The fact people, when confronted with disclosure of actions that are possibly war crimes tend to distance themselves, in an attempt to limit their culpability, proves these actions are certainly not war crimes?

Where in WP policy does it say that we should ignore a majority of experts simply to be fair and balanced to a limited group of extremists?

Sincerely Nomen Nescio 16:20, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Nowhere does it say that; Randy's stance is supported on the level it is supported to say the current US President ordered the destruction of the World Trade Center or that Castro was responsible for JFK. Per Misplaced Pages policy it is a minority fringe viewpoint. If that isn't liked, go change policy. Lawrence Cohen 16:24, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

On the contrary, my statement was in accordance with previously cited sources (like Pelosi's approval, and the 100 law profs). While your position isn't claiming that Bush supported the destruction of the WTC, you are claiming that the lawyers at the USDOJ approved torture. That's POV, and now that you mention it, perhaps a BLP violation as well.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 16:42, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

On the contrary, your statement is a deliberate attempt at slow vandalism and harm to Misplaced Pages, by distorting encyclopediac content outside of policy, by virtue of elevating your personal politics to be more important. Shall I provide a dozen diffs showing your dismissive tone to anything not pro-United States? Please also cite where I said "that the lawyers at the USDOJ approved torture" or redact this. I think it's past time that inflammatory political statements on this page be clamped down on, and treated as disruption. Disruption and POV pushing are blockable offenses. Lawrence Cohen 16:45, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Are you saying your personal politics hasn't come into this? WP policy is supposed to guide us regardless of our politics. As for mine, nowhere have I asked that we clean up verifiable actions by the U.S.

We have references that say waterboarding was approved by the USDOJ. How can it be torture without saying that they approved torture?

-- Randy2063 (talk) 16:53, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

That's not how it works, and our role is not to defend people--our role is to report what sources say. If we have sources that say waterboarding is torture, and sources that say the USDOJ approved waterboarding, there is *NO* issue or concern in having both in the article. Is that your big concern? If it is, say so. Because that is a violation of nothing, so long as we don't explicitely say "The USDOJ approved torture" without independent sourcing of that fact. It is not a BLP concern. Our role is to literally regurgitate what reliable sources say. If the ulimate conclusion when taken in whole of that regurgitation is unappealing to some for whatever political, religious, or ideological reason, there are a variety of "oh well" phrases that can cover that possibility. Lawrence Cohen 16:58, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

But you're not saying that sources call it torture. You want to say that Misplaced Pages calls it torture.

I fail to see how we can say it's torture, and that the USDOJ approved it, that that's not saying the USDOJ approved torture. At best you're saying the USDOJ is either stupid or lying.

I welcome admin oversight. If Misplaced Pages calls it torture, at least it can be said that they officially called it torture.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 17:13, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Nonsense, the sources are calling it torture. If the article cites a hundred sources, and the page says "waterboarding is a form of torture" that isn't Misplaced Pages saying it is, it's reporting what 100+ sources say. As for whether or not it makes a group like the USDOJ look foolish, divine, righteous, or whatever, why is that our concern as an encyclopedia? Lawrence Cohen 17:16, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Please cite the exact policy that supports your political stance written here, the supports giving less weight to this multitude of sources. If you cannot, you will need to stop trolling this page. Consider this a warning for disruption. We write articles based on policy alone, not irrelevant personal politics. Lawrence Cohen 16:15, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

The exact policy is WP:NPOV#Let the facts speak for themselves. That's all I'm asking for.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 16:53, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Thats what we've been doing, Randy. But that one facet of NPOV will not trump WP:WEIGHT, not the rest of NPOV, nor other policies like RS. We can let the facts speak for themselves, except when we don't like what they say (i.e., 100+ people, US legal decisions on Japanese prisoners, and historical records saying waterboarding is torture)? You can't have it both ways. You want the article to include things like "expert opinion is divided" or that it's not torture, the impetus is on *you* to provide equivalent sourcing and evidence. Whoever wants to include some phrase, or POV, or fact in an article when challenged has to offer a demonstration that is communally accepted of why it must be included. The people here have demonstrated ad nauseum with literally 100+ verifiable sources that "Waterboarding is torture". You need to put up now, or something. Get to it, and come back when you have something, and kindly stop wasting everyone's time so that an encyclopedia can be written free of your political stances. Lawrence Cohen 17:01, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

As explained previously, the examples you're giving aren't precisely the same.

It seems to me that the USDOJ is the only source we have that's reviewed both the law, and the exact technique itself. That should satisfy WEIGHT.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 17:13, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Maybe specific to the United States only, but is this article Waterboarding in the United States? Why on Earth would a practice used throughout history by a variety of countries and religious groups have it's entire tone determined by what the modern 21st century USDOJ may or may not consider waterboarding--and we *still* have no evidence of whether the current US Government considers it torture, because they won't say if they do or not. Why are we suggesting using this article to defend a nation's politics? Lawrence Cohen 17:19, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me that there's a campaign by certain editors to transform this into an article that should be called Waterboarding in the United States. Those previous comments about WP:COATRACK are very accurate. 209.221.240.193 (talk) 17:47, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

You're quite right, and a handful are trying to ensure that nationalism play no role in the encyclopedia content, and only sources, by-the-policy-books sourcing instead. If we made the article Waterboarding in the United States, there probably wouldn't be a sourced need to call it torture in the lead. This article is Waterboarding, however, which covers waterboarding from midevil times, through all it's global world-wide history and usage, through today. The United States is a small recent part of that history, and no more than that. The US portions of the article, therefore, should have less weight. Lawrence Cohen 17:50, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

WP:BLP and this page

Note: WP:BLP is an absolutely non-negotiable policy that applies to every inch of Misplaced Pages, in every name space. Repeatedly violating BLP has gotten people permanently and indefinitely blocked. I just caught one BLP violation by Neutral Good here that was unacceptable and refactored it. Watch yourselves, BLP is one of our singular most important policies. Lawrence Cohen 16:26, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Waterboarding is torture?

Is this the main issue in dispute here? If so, I recommend we start a requests for comment to see if "waterboarding is torture" or something else needs to be said in the article. Jehochman 17:15, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

That's only half the problem now. The larger issue is that people seem to feel that sources can be excluded based on their own personal political viewpoints. If allowed, that would compromise Misplaced Pages article content and be akin to vandalism. But yes, an RFC is a start. People need to understand yesterday that policies don't get trumped by their personal POV. Lawrence Cohen 17:21, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Proposal

Because the issue of whether "waterboarding is torture" is so contentious can we at least agree to add a link in the lead to the section later in the article that discusses this classification (or non-classification if consensus goes that way). By adding such a link, I think those that want to fully understand the full intricacies of the issue will be able to quickly find how this classification is viewed by various individuals and organizations and the article will be fully acknowledging the debate by some about this issue. What do others think? Remember (talk) 17:26, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

That is already covered in the article. We have the comments of a former U.S. attorney, made in National Review, as well as the brief comments of a not particularly notable Internet columnist. We don't yet have the comments of the two Republican politicians. Badagnani (talk) 18:06, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm confused. Are you saying you don't want a link in the lead to the section later in the article that fully discusses this topic? If so, why? Remember (talk) 18:25, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

It's very clear what is going on here with this "debate," as I've seen it many times before. The aim is to hammer an issue until the text shows ambiguity regarding its definition, and the illusion of a debate over the very definition of a thing. This is, in the minds of those wishing to make this technique available, a battle for public opinion, and Misplaced Pages, which is the 8th most visited website in the world and constantly used as a reference, is seen as a key battleground. By abusing the high value we place on working together and consensus, even small concessions such as acknowledging in the lead that there is a significant debate whether this form of torture really is a form of torture--even with a link to this "debate" later in the article is a victory of sorts. Most of the public never feels strongly one way or another about any subject, and if they can be desensitized to this one by reading text saying something like "within the United States, there is a healthy debate whether it really is torture," then the side favoring the technique's use has again scored a victory, as most of those reading that text may simply shrug their shoulders and move on to other things. You see, the aim of the hammering is not actually to get a redefinition, but to create just enough ambivalence/ambiguity to engender this "shoulder-shrugging" effect among the general public. Badagnani (talk) 18:32, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I'll take that as a "no you don't want a link to appear in the lead." Just so you know, what I was proposing was something like "Waterboarding is a form of torture (see classification as torture) that consists of immobilizing a person on his or her back, with the head inclined downward, and pouring water over the face and into the breathing passage." I don't think that this causes the problems that you highlight above, but to each his own. Any other opinions? Remember (talk) 19:11, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I see what you're saying. I thought you meant you were going to link, in the lead, to a section about the "debate." Badagnani (talk) 19:26, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

So are you still against this idea? Remember (talk) 20:23, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure. I just looked at that section and I feel the first sentence gives undue weight to the purported ambiguity/ambivalence whether waterboarding is torture. Badagnani (talk) 20:37, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm fine with User:Remember's proposal here. I feel optimistic that we can work together to edit the "classification as torture" section to provide a balanced representation of the opinions on the issue. —Ka-Ping Yee (talk) 21:31, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Remember, I like your approach to trying to solve the issue. I think[REDACTED] manual of style would object though. Not sure, I would have to research it. But in my experience, we do not in-line link to other[REDACTED] articles or to our own article. Bad form.

One of the problems with this debate is that we are debating the lead when the article needs to be improved and THEN the lead re-written to summarize the article (not to summarize a pov).--Blue Tie (talk) 16:07, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

RfC: Is waterboarding a form of torture, based on sources?

See Talk:Waterboarding/Definition for the discussion and place your comments there.

Many notable sources say it is and that's enough for wikipedia, i don't see why this debate is still going on. --neonwhite user page talk 15:56, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

It is going on because it is a pov. Misplaced Pages should be written NPOV. The debate for me is not about waterboarding. It is about[REDACTED] policies being applied to an article on waterboarding--Blue Tie (talk) 16:04, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

No its about you and your mates running blocking coverage for the CIA. 16:08, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I request that you refactor that statement and avoid personal attack. Assume Good Faith. After you do, then you can remove this request too. --Blue Tie (talk) 16:22, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

AGF is not a suicide pact and it is allowed to run out especially with POV warriors supporting warcrimes. 16:25, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

• Hypnosadist, you need to retract that allegation, prove it, or go away from this discussion. Proving it will not be possible, and I'm unlikely to forget. htom (talk) 01:03, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

It's verifiable, extremely so. NPOV does not mean No point of view. There isn't POV issue here. Intensely policital based statements can't be given too much weight. They are mentioned, that's enough. There is no commentary on it that i can see. --neonwhite user page talk 16:14, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure what you are saying but I agree that NPOV does not mean NO point of view. There is, however, a POV issue here. Sources are being rejected based upon personal pov of editors. That is a pov issue--Blue Tie (talk) 16:23, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

What sources? --neonwhite user page talk 17:02, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Your sources are useless, no medical evidence (we have), your legal sources don't say waterboarding isn't torture and they only consist of the minority opinion in one county in the world and claim only to apply after 9/11. So they are useless, recentist and biased to about 23% of 1 nation in the world. Thats a finge theory on wikipedia. 16:30, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

The sources you have of[REDACTED] quality are the OPINIONS of two Congressmen and the legal advice of a wanted warcriminal who says that POTUS can define the word "Torture" to mean anything he wants. Thats it and thats a fringe theory. 16:39, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I think that's largely the case, we are looking at a limited amount of comments that are very clearly politically motivated, in one of the cases contradictory, often erroneous and deliberately vage. Compare this to sources like UNHCR and all the historical sources available. The article does include opinions and texts on the controversy of it's use. The fact that US politicians often skate around the issue and give ambiguous answers when questioned in public doesn't change the definition. --neonwhite user page talk 17:08, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

There are absolutely NO SOURCES that say "THERE IS NO DISPUTE". There ARE sources that say that there is a Dispute. There are also sources that, while not saying there is a dispute strongly support that notion. There are no sources that do not support that notion. The issue is not "Is Waterboarding Torture?". The issue is: "Is it disputed that Waterboarding is torture?". If you mix up, miscount and mis-characterize my sources as hypnosadist has done, it invalidates your point. If you also do not recognize the actual issue and continue to ask the question "Is Waterboarding Torture?" you are not even addressing the problem. --Blue Tie (talk) 17:19, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

"mix up, miscount and mis-characterize my sources as hypnosadist has done" Please enlighten me, what am i mixing up? Miscounting? Mis-characteriseing? 17:25, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Neon actually most of the presidential candidates have said it is torture, with a few of the republican candidates like Rudy saying its neccecary. 17:15, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Some have said that it is not torture depending....--Blue Tie (talk) 17:19, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Surely it would help the discussion if contributors firts acquaint themselves with WP:FRINGE and WP:WEIGHT before commenting. Nomen Nescio 16:32, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

• Comment Fringe pertains chiefly to science or pseudo science -- not to this type of article. Weight applies for sure but editors should also be familiar with the the co-equal (or possibly superior) WP:ASF and consider that the debate over the issue includes a NOTABLE and significant or more than trivial minority. --Blue Tie (talk) 17:10, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Are you quoting: Assert facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves. By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." In which it clearly states that a non-dispute can be prtesented as fact, i.e. ID. Hmmm, I wonder, does a 100+ consensus:1 represent a dispute? Nomen Nescio 14:21, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Fringe theories apply to any article. all significant views are represented fairly and without bias, with representation in proportion to their prominence. This article complies with that. --neonwhite user page talk 17:15, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

You are quoting NPOV. That is a different policy. (Fringe is actually a guideline not a policy and does not hold the same weight). --Blue Tie (talk) 17:25, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Here's a quote from WP:FRINGE:

"We use the term fringe theory in a very broad sense to describe ideas that depart significantly from the prevailing or mainstream view in its particular field of study. Examples include conspiracy theories, ideas which purport to be scientific theories but have not gained scientific consensus, esoteric claims about medicine, novel re-interpretations of history and so forth."

There is no restriction to solely fields of scientific endeavor -- and, in my opinion, "waterboarding is not torture" certainly qualifies as a "novel re-interpretation of history". -- The Anome (talk) 17:18, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

But that is its focus. And ... As a guideline , it does not trump WP:ASF. There are lots of other issues too.. and one of them is that it is focused on scientific or at least testable issues. Our issue here... whether the notion that "waterboarding is torture is a disputed" concept does not hinge around Fringe. It is not a widely and scientifically disproved fringe theory that there is a dispute on this matter. On the other hand, this issue does hinge on WP:OR which is not just a guideline as I recall, but an actual policy. In particular, people who say it is not disputed ought to be required to show evidence that it is not disputed. I have given evidence that it is. --Blue Tie (talk) 17:25, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

The views are represented in the articles, this whole discussion is pointless. 'waterboarding is torture' is not disputed by any notable sources. It is clearly a tiny minority fringe theory and should not be given undue weight. You're starting to talk nonsense. No-one has to prove something isnt disputed. If there is no significant contrary sources then there is no issue. A handful of politically motivated half comments are not evidence of a challenge to mainstream views. --neonwhite user page talk 17:28, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Objectively, per Jimbo Wales criteria, you are wrong. It is disputed by notable sources. Quantitatively, a 1:2 difference is not "Fringe". You can always find people in polls who will answer "Yes sex with three year olds is great" and this number hovers around 3 to 8 percent depending upon the question. The number in a poll that is used as a source for the debate is 29% -- at least 4 times larger than I would agree is a tiny or insignificant group. There is definitely a dispute. Notable and significant. Population-wise, it is about the same ratio as the dispute called the Civil War. You may consider the confederacy to have been tiny or insignificant, but that would be an odd view and probably a weird reinterpretation of history -- or in other words, a Fringe viewpoint. --Blue Tie (talk) 17:34, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Poll, I'm 99% sure, are not valid RS for this sort of thing, but I have asked on the reliable sources noticeboard to settle this one or the other. If consensus there agrees that general/random polls are not acceptable, will you back down? Lawrence Cohen 17:40, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I would back down ONLY on the condition that I am the one who submits the wording about what the poll is used for. It is in the context of what it is used for that its validity stands or falls and I do not trust anyone else to present that correctly. I have not looked but I suspect you have not done so this time. If you have failed to mention that the poll was used to establish the degree of minority or majority of an opinion, that would be a mistake. If you failed to mention that the minority is described as tiny or insignificant and the poll was used to measure its size, that would be a mistake. If you failed to mention that the poll was used to support the sense that there is a dispute underway, that would be a mistake. If, however, you put the poll forward as a measure of the "truth" of whether waterboarding is torture, (which is how I suspect it would be read or worded), you would also be making a mistake. Which is why I would want to word the issue. Otherwise I will say that you mischaracterized the issue. And I am tired of saying it but I really do not think anyone is getting it. So it bears repeating. --Blue Tie (talk) 01:42, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

The only thing a poll can be used for is to cite the result of a poll and it would have to be a notable one to be relevant content for any article. False analogies are not helping your arguement. In this case we have an overwhelming amount of evidence and sources for one viewpoint and a small amount of very dodging sources for another. In my opinion, if anything these have too much weight in the article. Policy specifically says not to give undue weight and considering the lack of significance of the minority view it does not warrant anything more than a few lines. --neonwhite user page talk 23:29, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

The only thing I use the poll for is to cite the results of the poll. It is a notable poll, so it is relevant. I agree that false analogies are not helpful, but I did not make any false analogies. You are wrong about the overwhelming support for one viewpoint and a small amount of very dodging sources for another UNLESS you are missing the issue. If you think the issue is "Is Waterboarding Torture" then you are missing the issue. If you realize that the issue is: "Is waterboarding's status as torture disputed" then you are wrong about sources because there is not a single reliable source quoted so far that says it is not disputed. And many that say it is. I believe you are not recognizing the issue and are caught up in trying to answer the wrong question. --Blue Tie (talk) 00:56, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

No, you are trying to use the result of a non significant unverfied poll to further your POV. The multiple sources speak for themselves, it has been said many times. Do not disrupt the discussion by denying what is obvious. The issue is that you are trying to give undue weight to a small minority opinion that is barely significant to include at all. --neonwhite user page talk 05:41, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

The poll is significant. The poll does not need to be verified by an independent source to be a reliable source per[REDACTED] (otherwise I need to require that ALL of your proposed references must ALSO be verified by a separate independent source) per[REDACTED] standards and policy. What you are asking for there is over the top. You claim multiple sources. But you have not even provided even one source. Not even one. There is no such thing as disruption on my part when I am the only one to offer cites and references for my position. On the other hand, if anyone is disrupting it is the person who is refusing to acknowledge these references and sources while providing none themselves. --Blue Tie (talk) 17:58, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

20% of the population believe the moon landings were faked, 39% believe that humans were "definitely created" in the last 10 000 years, 80% believe the government is hiding aliens. 60% couldn't find Iraq on a map, 75% believe english is the most widely spoken native language Clearly, the public (at least when asked in polls) is wildly unreliable when it comes to factual matters. henrik•talk 18:04, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

It is your OPINION that the public is wildly unreliable when it comes to what you consider to be factual matters. However, you are missing the point. The issue is not "Is Waterboarding Torture?". The issue is : "Is it disputed that Waterboarding is Torture?". In that question a poll is a good source for showing it is disputed. But if it is not good enough, I have also produced a news report saying that the issue of waterboarding being torture is disputed. --Blue Tie (talk) 00:50, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Basically the people who took the poll aren't verifiable sources. --neonwhite user page talk 23:36, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

This is untrue. The people who took the poll are considered a reliable source and the poll itself is verifiable. --Blue Tie (talk) 00:50, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

If public opinion is such a reliable source of information why do we have the scientific method, evidence based medicine and do we consider invoking vox populi a logical fallacy? Here is why: public opinion frequently/mostly differs from that of experts. Nomen Nescio 14:29, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

No they aren't, nobody knows who they are, let alone if they are verifiable sources. Their opinions are not relevant. --neonwhite user page talk 05:36, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

You (Nescio and Neon) are not authorized to change[REDACTED] policy on Reliable Sources by yourself. You must obtain consensus. Your views are valued. You should go make them known on the Pump and see if they are accepted as new policy. But until then they are not. --Blue Tie (talk) 02:13, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Henrik, you've claimed that "75% believe english is the most widely spoken native language." That poll wasn't taken from the entire population. That poll was taken from 18- to 24-year-olds. That's the first one I checked and you made a false statement about it,. so I feel no need to explore your misrepresentations any farther. Kindly stop misrepresenting the evidence. Thanks. Neutral Good (talk) 00:14, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Ad hominem and distraction. Henrik's character is not at issue; people's beliefs about English are not at issue. The issue is whether public opinion polls are admissible as reliable sources. The matter is settled: they are not. —Ka-Ping Yee (talk) 01:01, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Totally bogus. Polls are used regularly in wikipedia. You cannot unilaterally declare a source to be bad because you do not like it. And the REAL ISSUE that we should be focusing on is related to the article. It is: "Is the Notion that Waterboarding is Torture, Seriously Disputed?" There is evidence that it is and cited, reliable sources saying so. There is no evidence that it is not disputed. --Blue Tie (talk) 01:13, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

You have yet to provide any such evidence that suggests your view is more than a minority view and warrants any more weight than it already has, repeating it over and over wont make it true. We do not attempt prove negatives on wikipedia. --neonwhite user page talk 05:43, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

You have yet to provide ANY evidence at all. None. Zip. Nada. At least I have provided evidence that my position is valid. You have not provided ANY to the contrary.--Blue Tie (talk) 17:50, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

The issue isn't that it is disputed by members of the US general public in 2007. The issue is whether that should be allowed to influence an article about a practice that predates the founding of the United States itself. However, you have already stated that you think that historical references from before the current U.S. controversy are irrelevant, so I don't think that it will be possible to achieve a global consensus on this point. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 05:08, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

That is not the issue. Because that issue is already decided by[REDACTED] policy. We are not allowed to circumvent that policy. --Blue Tie (talk) 17:50, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Ultimately here, one has to remember to avoid recentism, personally motivated comments by politians during the last few years has only limited importance against the clear historical understanding and definition. This is not an artical about the recent controversies, they are only a small part of it. --neonwhite user page talk 06:21, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

There is no policy about recentism that trumps WP:NPOV. --Blue Tie (talk) 17:50, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

We aren't playing cards here. Recentism is not a neutral point of view, it's a point of view based solely on recent events ignoring historical context, therefore policy forbids it. --neonwhite user page talk 18:59, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I also would object to recentism as you describe it. From that perspective, many things we now label torture should not be called torture, because it has only been recently (last 50 years) that they have been so labeled. However, I would suggest to you that we cannot entirely avoid "recentism". We live recently. Our experiences are recent. Most books were published "recently". I can appreciate and value an effort to look more widely but I question the ability of any modern editor to do so. Consequently I have a request: Please cite the policy on "Recentism" exactly as it appears in[REDACTED] policies. These have been decided upon by consensus and so they rule. An editors individual opinion of recentism does not quite count. --Blue Tie (talk) 19:05, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

The word torture has been used for centuries. You are confusing the definition of the word with the morality and legality of the practice. With things that have existed for hundreds of years, modern views have to be given the correct weight. As this article covers the history of it. The recent controversies in one particular country aren't that important. As i said recentism is obviously a bias, a non-neutral point of view, the policy is WP:NPOV. --neonwhite user page talk 19:16, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Uhhh.. I asked you about the policy on Recentism. I did not need a polemic about your views. Is there a policy on recentism or is this something you have made up? This is a simple question.--Blue Tie (talk) 02:09, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Spliting this article

This article is taking on a real recentist and US bias so i'm going to cut off the US section and create Torture during the War on Terror. 16:13, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Done 16:17, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

If someone with admin privalages could repeat my cut and paste so all the refs and wikilinks are real that would be wonderful. 16:18, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

You did that without consensus. I object. --Blue Tie (talk) 16:20, 29 December 2007 (UTC) Objection overruled, anyone can start a page on[REDACTED] and this article is protected from edits so i can't get rid of the recentism YET. 16:32, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree that this article is too recentist and U.S. centric, and splitting it into two articles might not be a bad idea (I personally like it), but lets not do it while the article is protected and without prior discussion. We would also need to think of a suitable title. For those reasons, I've deleted Torture durring the War on Terror for now, but with no prejudice towards trying the idea in the future. I would suggest we start a discussion here first on how this can be accomplished though. henrik•talk 17:05, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Amazingly enough, I agree with Blue Tie on this. While a reasonable case can be made for a split, Torture during the War on Terror is an absolutely awful title, with the controversy built right into the title. Before we do anything like this, we should try to achieve consensus that it should be done, and find a new, more NPOV, title. What that title should be, I can't currently imagine. -- The Anome (talk) 17:14, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

How is that title not neutral? There no commentary in it. --neonwhite user page talk 17:16, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

The whole point of that title was so we could include al qeada and militias "enhanced interrogation techniques" in one article. Something Randi suggested actually. 17:19, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I think the concept is notable and reasonable for an encyclopedia. At first I did not have a problem with the title but upon reflection, I think it may not be a good one. But something like that article is a good idea. however...The way the article was created was unbalanced and biased. The timing was entirely wrong. I would be in favor of an article of that nature though, if it were NPOV. I think its an interesting and encyclopedic topic. Are we sure there isn't an article already serving that purpose? --Blue Tie (talk) 17:29, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Then spend some time looking for sources about the torture chambers run by the militias et al. Heres one to start you. 17:33, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Cut it out. This is not a WP:SOAPBOX. And...again, your suggestion is irrelevant to the question: Is there already an article that serves this purpose? --Blue Tie (talk) 17:36, 29 December 2007 (UTC) Refactored. Inappropriate and did not assume good faith. --Blue Tie (talk) 01:09, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Did you bother to read the link? 17:39, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

There is significant controversy about the UK deportation of suspects to countries widely known to use torture. --neonwhite user page talk 17:37, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes and because of gitmo and ER the Canadian supreme court has said the USA is not a safe transit country (this means they cant extradite anyone to the US at the moment). 17:41, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually they can and do extradite people to the US. Its happening as we speak. But that is irrelevant to this topic.--Blue Tie (talk) 01:03, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

There's already Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse, Bagram torture and prisoner abuse, Torture and the United States and Criticisms of the War on Terrorism. Torture durring the War on Terror would be redundant, and is going to be a slugfest if you have US vs Al Qaeda tortures on the same page. It is also overly broad. United States waterboarding controversy may be better. On the other hand, I can easily see a POV-fork here: the US article will end up saying that waterboarding is a legitimate interrogation technique that saves the world from terrorists, and the other article is going to say that waterboarding is torture. You will resolve the arguments over this article, but create new arguments. Having said that, this article is overly US-centric and recentist, focussing as it does so much on a couple of years of political argument instead of hundreds of years of history, and splitting it may be one way to solve that problem. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 19:51, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

It's spelled "Splitting." Oppose splitting - unnecessary and this article is not yet too long. Badagnani (talk) 19:56, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Chris, above; United States waterboarding controversy is probably the best title I've seen for a split-off article on the controversy itself. However, I remain to be convinced that a split is appropriate at this time, as I believe the controversy is not independently notable in itself, other than as a subtopic of a main waterboarding article. -- The Anome (talk) 20:53, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Chris for finding somewhere for this arguement to go, http://en.wikipedia.org/Torture_and_the_United_States#Authorization_and_methods_of_torture_and_abuse which is about what the USA does at Gitmo etc. Now we can cut down the USA section to a they use it and see here for more info. 21:51, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

New Lawrence Cohen proposed first paragraph

"Waterboarding is a form of torture that consists of immobilizing a person on his or her back, with the head inclined downward, and pouring water over the face and into the breathing passages and is considered a form of torture. Through forced suffocation and inhalation of water, the subject experiences the process of drowning in a controlled environment and is made to believe that death is imminent. In contrast to merely submerging the head face-forward, waterboarding almost immediately elicits the gag reflex. Although waterboarding can be performed in ways that leave no lasting physical damage, it carries the risks of extreme pain, damage to the lungs, brain damage caused by oxygen deprivation, injuries (including broken bones) due to struggling against restraints, and even death. The psychological effects on victims of waterboarding can last for years after the procedure. Since 2001, it's status as a form of torture has been contested by several Americans."

This seems absolutely factually accurate. Lawrence Cohen 17:43, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• I object. On the same grounds as I have objected previously. This lead immediately violates[REDACTED] neutrality policy, which is the most important article writing policy on[REDACTED] and cannot be compromised. It is also factually inaccurate or imprecise. --Blue Tie (talk) 17:45, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

It's factual accurate, pleas stop misrepresenting NPOV policy. It is becoming disruptive. --neonwhite user page talk 18:42, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• Oh for Heaven's sake. I'm moving this to the main talk page for a proposed lead. Let's see what the actual editors have to say to this compromise. Remember that a few dissenting voices do not trump consensus, consensus is not "unanimous". Lawrence Cohen 17:51, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Are you seriously saying that I am not an actual editor? That my comments are invalid? Please also remember that consensus on a talk page cannot trump policy and that consensus is not majority rule. Thus a few dissenting voices may, in fact, be consensus. --Blue Tie (talk) 18:01, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about the SPAs, as Jehochman has said repeatedly. Lawrence Cohen 18:05, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. I must admit, I do not recall what an SPA is but I suppose it is good that I am not in that group?--Blue Tie (talk) 18:43, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• I am fine with this lead. Bluetie, if you object to this could you please propose something to replace it. It is difficult to reach an accord if you just object to things and don't put forth your own suggestion. - Remember

• Strongly oppose for the reasons repeatedly posted here. "waterboarding is a form of torture" is a blatant violation of WP:NPOV. That it appears as the first six words of the article is an even more outrageously blatant violation of WP:NPOV. This is not negotiable. It is Misplaced Pages policy. Neutral Good (talk) 17:57, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Again misrepresenting policy is considered disruptive. If you dont understand the policy. Read it thorough or ask for explainations. There is nothing on WP:NPOV that even suggests this is not neutral. It states the facts accurately based on the sources. There is no commentary or personal views there. --neonwhite user page talk 18:51, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose c/2001 it's/2001 its/ More later; it does not describe the various different activities that are labeled "waterboarding", having one stand for all of them, which may be what causes the dispute about whether or not it's torture. htom (talk) 18:03, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• Look again, renamed the section. We're really just talking about the first paragraph. Lawrence Cohen 18:04, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose -- that's not a compromise. You're basically saying that waterboarding is always torture although some people mistakenly think otherwise. That's clearly a POV. -- Randy2063 (talk) 18:06, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• We have no evidence of any dispute except by some Americans post 2001. Do we have any evidence of any dispute prior to that assertation that it is torture, dating back to around 1400 AD when the practice was first documented? Lawrence Cohen 18:10, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

We also have no evidence that there was no dispute prior to 2001. Do you assert that there was no dispute? Validate it. Do you assert that there was a dispute? Validate it? Do you assert neither? Then neither should wikipedia. --Blue Tie (talk) 18:35, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

How exactly are we suppose to prove a negative (that there was no dispute prior to 2001) besides simply researching the issue and finding no such dispute?Remember (talk) 18:39, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I do not know, but if you assert something you must validate it with a reliable source that has researched this subject. It is ok with me not to assert something that we do not know.--Blue Tie (talk) 02:07, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

This didn't really become a high profile legal matter until 2001 when treatment of unlawful combatants (a term in use long before this war, btw) became a political issue.

How about this: "is a form of abuse that consists of immobilizing a person on his or her back, with the head inclined downward, and pouring water over the face and into the breathing passages and is considered a form of torture."

-- Randy2063 (talk) 19:58, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose The statement "waterboarding can be performed in ways that leave no lasting physical damage" requires a reliable medical source, which I doubt you will find, for the simple reason that it is impossible to perform any physical act of violence in a way that guarantees no physical damage. What if the victim has a weak heart, or genetic susceptibility to heart attack? An accurate statement might be "waterboarding may or may not result in lasting physical damage, or even death, depending on the severity of the attack, and victim's constitution and disposition". Chris Bainbridge (talk) 18:11, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• Reluctantly oppose. I sympathise with the editor's position but cannot support it. In my opinion this awful practice of waterboarding is obviously torture. But this is not the place for our opinions. It is an encyclopaedia and it must be neutral. Harry Lives! (talk) 19:07, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• Support. This is acceptable to me. I also support Chris Bainbridge's proposed adjustment. —Ka-Ping Yee (talk) 21:15, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Blue Tie's proposal

I was asked to provide a version of the lead. I think the whole article needs re-written, but assuming a re-write along the directions I would imagine, I suggest this lead:

Waterboarding refers to a variety of interrogation techniques that involve immobilizing a person on his or her back and pouring water over the face with the intent to restrict breathing or to to evoke the instinctive fear of drowning. (It should not be confused with the Water cure which is the forced ingestion of water into the stomach.) Evidence of Waterboarding in one form or another shows it to have been conducted since at least **Whenever**. It is widely considered torture although this has been disputed or questioned, chiefly in consideration of different methods and conditions. Its effectiveness as an interrogation method is also disputed; it may produce information quickly but critics question the validity of information produced in desperation and under duress.

International law prohibits torture, but the specific legal status of waterboarding varies by country.

I am thinking of it in terms of[REDACTED] policies and the questions: What/How? When? Where? Why?

I propose this lead as a SUMMARY of details found in the article with the following article structure in mind:

Methods and Process

History

Disputed Status as Torture

Effectiveness

Legal Status

Do I support my own lead? Well, I consider it best without regard to the rest of the article but as I said, it should be a summary of what is found in the article and should not contain new information (except for the warning not to confuse it with the Water Cure).

I should add that I frankly believe that when people read the Methods and History, they will have, ON THEIR OWN, come to the conclusion that it is torture. THAT is the way[REDACTED] should operate. Like the WP:NPOV policy states --- let the facts speak for themselves.

--Blue Tie (talk) 18:29, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• Strongly support. Factually accurate and NPOV. Please replace "Whenever" with "the Spanish Inquisition." Neutral Good (talk) 18:35, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
• Reject Weaselly to an incredible degree. As has been pointed out many times, there has not been enough dispute and it's minor inclusion in the article in no way warrants a mention in any article summary. This is giving undue weight to a fringe theory based on your personal POV. --neonwhite user page talk 18:45, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Which words do you find to be weasel words? Perhaps they can be improved. One of the problems with a lead is that things can be considered weasel words when in fact they are supported by the article content. And as I said, I envision a certain article content. --Blue Tie (talk) 18:51, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose - The substitution of the euphemism "interrogation technique" for "form of torture" is unacceptable. This is an encyclopedia written in English, not Newspeak. Editor is allowing current political bias in a single nation to override the actual English-language definition of this practice; again unacceptable at Misplaced Pages. Badagnani (talk) 18:43, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Can you propose an alternative that lives within[REDACTED] policy. We cannot say that it is a form of torture if that is not a fact. And it is not a fact if it is disputed. I do not believe that it is disputed that it is an interrogation technique, so that is what I used. I also tried to follow the idea of a summary of a proposed article outline. What do you propose -- and I am willing to support leads that are logical, reasonable but most of all, fit with[REDACTED] policy and do not push a pov. --Blue Tie (talk) 18:48, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

It is a fact, it fits the dictionary definition. You can't change that because you don't like it. Any interrogation technique that inflicts mental or physical pain is defined as torture, you're text describes torture so to not use the word is ridiculous. --neonwhite user page talk 18:57, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

You see, your definition of what is a fact is different from what[REDACTED] says is a fact per policy. That is the problem with your approach. You are ignoring[REDACTED] policy. By doing so, you ensure a lack of consensus. Policy helps us arrive at consensus.--Blue Tie (talk) 19:12, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I am not ignoring any policy, a dictionary defintion is a verifiable fact and is not disputed here. You cannot redefine the meaning of a word to follow your political viewpoint. Leave that to the politicians! --neonwhite user page talk 19:19, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

You said you are not ignoring policy. Can you cite the policy that says: "If its in the dictionary it is a fact"? I can actually cite policy that discusses what a fact is on wikipedia.--Blue Tie (talk) 19:33, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

The fringe POV (held by fewer than 5 conservative politicans and opinion columnists in a single nation) cannot be privileged in the article's lead. All sources, save for these, dating back to the 15th century, state that waterboarding is a form of torture. Thus, it appears that your assertion of POV is best directed at yourself, as such an outlandish redefinition of a well-understood English term would fit the definition of Newspeak better than an English-language encyclopedia. As stated at least 15 or 20 previous times, this does not prevent these commentators' fringe views from being outlined in the article, but they must not be allowed to change the very definition of this practice, which is well understood. Badagnani (talk) 19:03, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree that a fringe POV should not be privileged. I have not done so as far as I can tell. Can you propose a solution that does not violate[REDACTED] policy? In particular, we cannot say that it is torture if that is not a fact. And per[REDACTED] policy it is not a fact. So, can you propose a solution that fits policy? I think it should also read well and follow some general outline. --Blue Tie (talk) 19:15, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

It is a fact. Look up the defintion --neonwhite user page talk 19:24, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Two errors. I am unable to find a definition of "Waterboarding" in your source and it would not really matter -- a dictionary is not the sole arbiter of fact. Misplaced Pages has a policy of what constitutes a fact. It also has a policy regarding Original Research. In that policy it has an aspect called "Synthesis", which it specifically describes as OR. An example of synthesis I have seen on this page is: So and So says Torture is X. This and that say Waterboarding is X. So, Waterboarding is Torture. That is specifically forbidden per[REDACTED] policy. You were not suggesting that approach were you? I would appreciate it if your answers would fit within[REDACTED] policies of WP:ASF and WP:SYN. --Blue Tie (talk) 19:31, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Nobody is doing anything like that. Your misrepresenting of policy and disruption of the consensus to prove a point is getting tiresome. There are no words banned from being used on wikipedia, torture is an english word it has a meaning, it fits here there is no policy that forbids its correct usage. That is common sense. There is no opinion in the correct use of the word. There are multiple sources that say waterboarding is torture. This has been said many times over. I'm not going to say it again, i will just consider it a refusal to get the point. --neonwhite user page talk 19:43, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Since I am not misrepresenting policy, something else must be tiresome. Or if you think I am misrepresenting policy show me on my talk page explicitly. Quote the policy and show how I am doing it wrong. Please be sure to address the policies that I am using WP:NPOV and WP:NOR and remember that NPOV is non-negotiable, while guidelines, essays and opinions are not policies. I promise, if I am misrepresenting policy I will be the first to stop doing so, because I do not want to do that. But I would prefer that you not make that accusation without some justification to it. On the other hand, you have repeatedly refused to put forth ANY sources that contradict my position. NONE. Yet you are the one saying that I am not getting the point. Something a bit one sided on that deal. I further open my talk page to ANYONE who thinks I am misrepresenting policy here. Please educate me. Otherwise please do not make the accusation.--Blue Tie (talk) 20:00, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Comment - The sources are now at a separate page (it is linked at the very top of this discussion page). Don't worry; they are all there--most stating that waterboarding is a form of torture dating back to the Spanish Inquisition (c. 1400) and about 4, from conservative/Republican politicians or opinion columnists stating their opinion that it is not a form of torture. Badagnani (talk) 20:12, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

All of those sources support MY position. There have not been any sources that support a position opposed to mine.--Blue Tie (talk) 20:41, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - All of the sources state that waterboarding is not a form of torture? You are clearly mistaken. In fact, only approximately four opinions (all very recent, from conservative/Republican politicians or opinion columnists, all from a single nation, made in an attempt to deform the English language in Newspeak-like manner for political reasons) do this. Badagnani (talk) 21:11, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Since when was my position that Waterboarding is not a form of torture? NEVER have I taken that position. However, the sources you quote DO support my position. I have said what my position is many times. It is not a secret. Perhaps you should figure out what my position is before you object to it. --Blue Tie (talk) 02:18, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

• Reluctantly support. Same reason as that expressed for Shibuni's proposal. Harry Lives! (talk) 18:53, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose. For at least two major reasons. (a) This lead deletes the descriptive sentences that are in the current lead, which make it clear that waterboarding induces choking and gagging, and explain that water enters the breathing passages. This information is important for understanding the procedure and I don't see why it should be deleted. (b) The phrase "this has been disputed or questioned" is not properly qualified, and thus misrepresents the dispute. We only have evidence of a recent dispute in the United States, so it is an exaggeration for the article to suggest that the dispute is of general scope. —Ka-Ping Yee (talk) 21:18, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Question: I thought these concerns would be handled in the article and that the lead would be a summary of the article. Are you saying the lead should provide special independent and new information to the article instead of summarizing the article? Or did I misunderstand your comment? --Blue Tie (talk) 02:05, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

• Support. 69.204.119.171 (talk) 01:21, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
• Support. 70.9.150.106 (talk) 02:01, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Mr Bainbridge's proposal

Since it seems like everyone else is having a crack at this, I thought I'd have a go. Please consider your response to this: unless you plan on taking this to an arbitration decision, or plan on logging in every day for the rest of your life to revert each other, there has to be compromise on both sides.

Waterboarding is the practice of subjecting a person to a form of artificial drowning. The head of the subject is inclinded backwards, and water is poured over the face and into the breathing passages. A cloth or other object is often placed over the face, or in the mouth, in order to both inhibit breathing and stimulate the gag reflex. The simultaneous sensations of suffocation and the lungs being filled with water cause the victim to slowly drown, eliciting an uncontrollable physical response of extreme panic, gagging, and flailing. The procedure has been popularly used as a covert third degree interrogation technique, since it often leaves no lasting evidence of physical abuse. However, it can cause damage to the lungs, brain damage from oxygen deprivation, injuries due to struggling against restraints, and even death. Some subjects have reported that the procedure is extremely painful, and some have reported that it isn't so painful, but the common experience suggests that it is extremely unpleasant, and subjects will resort to providing a (possibly false) confession or information rather than endure the threat of further waterboarding.

Waterboarding is a historic practice, with the earliest documentation of its use dating back to the Spanish Inquisition in 1492. Since then, it has been widely documented as a method of torture, and in the last century it has been classified as a torture technique by both international and national courts, including the prosecution of Japanese interrogators by the International Military Tribunal for the Far East following World War II, the prosecution of police officers within the United States, and the prosecution of soldiers in Vietnam. It's use is prohibited by many military forces, and it is explicility prohibited by the U.S. Army. The authorisation and use of the technique by the Central Intelligence Agency since 2002 has led to discussion and controversy, and moves by some U.S. Senators to introduce a law that would explicitly ban its use by all government agencies.

Chris Bainbridge (talk) 19:30, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

The more the merrier. I like this proposal. It is factual and avoids the T-word in the first paragraph in favor of dispassionately describing the act. What do you think of would changing "cause the victim to slowly drown" to something like "cause the experience/sensation of slowly drowning" since the victims aren't meant to actually drown? henrik•talk 19:53, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

There is no reason why the word shouldn't be used. We can't let editors effect the way[REDACTED] reads and alter facts because of political motivations. That's is clearly against the whole purpose of wikipedia. --neonwhite user page talk 20:00, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree, but sometimes understatement can be effective. I think the initial paragraph here gives a good overview of how unpleasant and repugnant the practice is even without using the word "torture". And the second paragraphs leads with it. henrik•talk 20:18, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

We have several references that say that it is actually drowning - the lungs really do fill with water. It is definitely not just the sensation of drowning. I think that the paragraph is clear that the person isn't usually meant to die, if that's the interpretation that you're worrying about? Chris Bainbridge (talk) 20:11, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I see. henrik•talk 20:18, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• Do not Support This. But I prefer not to say "oppose" because I like the effort and there are many things I like about your solution (much less out of policy things at first glance). But I prefer summaries for leads and there is a great deal of detail here-- details I believe might be better in the actual article. And with details comes LOTS of area for contention. As just a brief example, sometimes it does not come close to even artificial drowning and sometimes it goes beyond artificial, to actual drowning with resuscitation. Yet we declare it to be a form of artificial drowning.. just like that. And you say the "head is inclined backwards". That could be sitting up. So there are lots of areas of detail that are not right. But the idea is better than many I have seen. --Blue Tie (talk) 19:55, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
  • I agree that the details need ironing out, but this is a good start. Perhaps we can try to work together to wordsmith this into something both factual and neutral, by suggesting specific improvements? henrik•talk 19:59, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I am willing but I think we should see how others weigh in. I also have another proposal at the bottom of the page. --Blue Tie (talk) 20:01, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

The tilting of the head back is the only common definition that we have. The technique relies on opening the throat by tilting of the head with respect to the body. Yes, that means it could hypothetically be performed on someone sitting down, although it would be an odd way to do it. Likewise, the technique can be done through complete submersion of the head, or partial submersion of the face. I tried to find a definition for the lead that captures all of these possibilities. I'm open to other suggestions. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 20:19, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually the only common features of all accounts that I have read involve pouring water over the face while the person is constrained in some roughly horizontal position. I have never seen submersion per-se, but maybe. However, discussion over details is an example of the problem I was really objecting to: Too many details. We need to work those out in the article and then do the lead as a summary. I will say however, I do not see fundamental objections to your lead based upon policy. I think you did a pretty good job in that regard. I have some objections in that area but not nearly as big as the ones I have with the current lead. --Blue Tie (talk) 20:30, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

As you point out below, little steps will eventually lead to a better article. Most, if not all, of the argument has been over the lead - if we can find a version that most people can live with, then that will be a great advance over the present situation. No solution is perfect, and nobody is going to be completely satisfied; the important thing is that nobody has any major objections. There are two reliably sourced references to immersion waterboarding in Talk:Waterboarding/Definition, under "U.S. Department of State" Chris Bainbridge (talk) 20:50, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - If there is a "standard" method, describe that and say "usually." There is no need to describe dozens of variations on this well-understood method of torture in the lead, which should be a concise summary. It can also be done by putting the head under a running water faucet/tap. Badagnani (talk) 20:23, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

There is no standard version. No rag in mouth, Rag in mouth, plastic wrap, Level, inclined, lots of water, little water, in the nose, in the mouth, just on the face, etc. --Blue Tie (talk) 20:30, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

There are lots of variations. I managed to condense them to a 46 word description. As far as I can see it is factually correct. Whether it is concise or not is relative - for example, the lead of global warming is five paragraphs long, and there are probably longer examples. Having said that, I'm open to alternative suggestions. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 20:50, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• Almost support. This is nicely done. In general, I support the approach of giving a detailed description in the first paragraph and briefly explaining the historical context and status as torture in the second paragraph. The only thing that I have a problem with is the phrase "artificial drowning" in the first sentence. Waterboarding isn't "artificial"; it isn't an illusion; water really enters the person's breathing passages, and the person really will drown to death if the process isn't promptly halted. Much better would be "controlled drowning" or "interrupted drowning." —Ka-Ping Yee (talk) 21:23, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I use artificial in the sense of "not natural" "product of man" etc. and the paragraph does go on to explicitly state that the lungs fill with water causing the subject to slowly drown. It is also the terminology used by Wallace in one of the few academic references to deal with the legality of waterboarding (see ). Having said that, I can see your point that people might interpret "artificial" as meaning "not real". "Controlled drowning" suggests to me a level of control that isn't present - once the lungs are filled with water, there's no guarantee that you'll be able to empty them, which doesn't sound too controlled. "Interrupted drowning" isn't as descriptive, as there is only a single interruption at the end of the whole process. We could just say "a form of drowning"? Chris Bainbridge (talk) 22:02, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Archiving (again)

This page is now approaching 400 KB in length and is taking several seconds to load. Editors using wireless accounts may be unable to edit it effectively. Am I going to be blocked for archiving older sections of it that are no longer active? Neutral Good (talk) 18:41, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I was meaning to bring this up. We should not block editors for archiving long pages. Automatic archiving does not work on such an active page. --Blue Tie (talk) 18:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

The page is archived automatically, by a bot, as you know. Badagnani (talk) 18:44, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

The bot isn't keeping up, as you know. As Blue Tie says, "Automatic archiving does not work on such an active page." I repeat: it's nearly 400 KB in size. Editors using wireless accounts may be unable to edit it effectively. Insisting on such a gigantic Talk page is a form of elitism. Only affluent editors with the money to spend on high-speed Internet connections are allowed to participate fully. This is supposed to be "the encyclopedia that anyone can edit." Neutral Good (talk) 19:01, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

The editor blocked was blocked for a good reason. S/he was selectively archiving text under active discussion, after having been asked not to do so, then, to make a WP:POINT, began to reinsert text from months earlier. This has been explained twice before; I now see the pattern here; editors pretend not to have read earlier discussion, then fill the page with more and more text that disregards that earlier discussion, eliminating significant discussion from just a few days ago as the new text fills up the page. This is analagous to the current discussion about the lead--with many editors insisting that WP disregard 600 years of history about this practice and privileging the statments of fewer than 5 conservative politicians and opinion columnists from a single nation, whose administration is attempting to redefine, in Newspeak-like manner, a well-defined and well-understood practice. Badagnani (talk) 18:55, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

You should assume good faith. I have not understood why Shibimi was blocked. To me it had something to do with what might have been an honest error. But I really do not know why. However, long pages should be archived. That is reasonable. But I do not know why the other editor was blocked and you should not assume otherwise. You should assume good faith. --Blue Tie (talk) 19:07, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Please read the earlier discussion, thanks. It was clearly explained earlier, more than once, in much the same terms as I used here. Badagnani (talk) 19:11, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

That is irrelevant to the requirement to assume good faith. --Blue Tie (talk) 19:35, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Do you understand now why Shibimi was blocked? --Iamunknown 19:43, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

There are different methods of waterboarding and some are far more harsh than others, as one of your own sources (Wallach) points out. You want a world that is black and white on this issue. There are a thousand shades of gray. We should archive the page to allow people who don't have T1 and T3 cables to participate fully. Neutral Good (talk) 19:01, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

All versions (whether "less cruel" or "more cruel") involve strapping to a board, inclining the board, and pouring water over the face. They are all forms of torture. The international definition of torture, as stated by Misplaced Pages, is clear. If you feel so strongly that the English word torture must be flexible according to personal feeling, you should attempt to change the title of the article Rack (torture), as well as the international definition of torture, as those wouldn't allow individuals to make up their own minds about these things. Badagnani (talk) 19:06, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Some errors of fact. It does NOT always involve strapping to a board. It does NOT always involve inclining. You may have other errors as well. Do not assume you are right on all things when you are able to be wrong so often. --Blue Tie (talk) 19:10, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

It is called "waterboarding," as you know, because the "classic" version utilizes a board--although "ad hoc" versions may be performed without a board. This would be akin to playing a piano sonata on a toy piano when a real piano is unavailable. However, the existence of such "ad hoc" variants does not change the definition of "playing the piano." Nor does it mean that a piano is "not a musical instrument," because fewer than five individuals wrote opinion columns stating that they don't believe the piano really is a musical instrument. Badagnani (talk) 19:14, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Well then you have described different versions. Yet you said ALL of them do X. You are not generally correct when you get expansive that way. Yet much of your logic and reasoning follow that trend. For example, just above you say that "All sources since the 1500's say that waterboarding is torture". Do they really? How many have you personally read? You are entirely capable of error yet you are full of certainty on your facts. Some humility would help produce consensus. --Blue Tie (talk) 19:18, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Blue Tie, you beat me to it. We have photographic evidence from January 1968, proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that the US waterboarding technique does not involved strapping to a board and only uses one canteen of water, eliminating any possibility of death by drowning. The inclined board and the much larger amounts of water used in other techniques make them far more abusive. Badagnani, kindly acknowledge this distinction in your future discussion on this Talk page. Thanks. Neutral Good (talk) 19:14, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

The soldier in that photo was courtmartialed for conducting this "less cruel" form of torture. The "more abusive" version of waterboarding is a form of torture, and the "less abusive" version of waterboarding is also a form of torture. That is well understood, and has been for at least 600 years. Badagnani (talk) 19:17, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Now let's try to keep this section on topic. The topic for this section is archiving. This page is nearly 400 KB in size and the bot just can't keep up. People with wireless Internet connections cannot effectively participate. I suggest archiving. Is anyone going to trot off to WP:ANI and demand that I must be blocked for it? Neutral Good (talk) 19:17, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

The page is archived automatically, by a bot. This has already been explained, at least three times so far. Badagnani (talk) 19:18, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

And the bot can't keep up with a page this active. This has already been explained, at least three times so far. It is a form of elitism and an attempt to WP:OWN the Talk page to insist on keeping it this large. Neutral Good (talk) 19:19, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

You have been one of the people who lengthens the page so much. Please keep comments concise and avoid repetition and needless argumentation. If necessary, we can reduce the bot to 7 days. Jehochman 19:23, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• Support 7 days or more than 150KB. The frequency of archiving on a talk page is per consensus. I would suggest that policy be followed in that regard. I would support a frequency of 7 days and I would like to add a limit of 150KB as well for users with dial up. --Blue Tie (talk) 19:26, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• Support 14 days and request editors to avoid posting the same fringe opinions over and over, in an effort to fill up the page so that significant earlier discussion and consensus gets moved to the archives. Badagnani (talk) 19:27, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I support 7 days. There are no IP addresses or new accounts voting here, so you can't Wikilawyer your way out of it; and if Jehochman can be taken as a vote of support, that makes it 3-1 in favor of a 7-day setting. Neutral Good (talk) 19:37, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Except the IPs and users now banned for sockpuppetry and abuse. Support 7 days, also. Lawrence Cohen 20:01, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I've changed it to 7 days for now. Neutral Good, Again: please note that[REDACTED] works by rough consensus, not vote tallying. How many people voting for a specific proposal really isn't the issue. henrik•talk 20:10, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

More information to be incorporated

Mark Bowden, writer of Black Hawk Down and Killing Pablo, recently wrote a editorial stating that waterboarding may be illegal but it ws justified in the case of Zubaydah. See link he clarifies his position here Link. Fairly notable example of a person who says it is illegal but justified. Remember (talk) 18:50, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Its hard to wrap your head around the idea of illegal but justified. However, sometimes maybe so. --Blue Tie (talk) 18:54, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Did he say that it's torture? Neutral Good (talk) 19:02, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

His exact words are "It is not torture in the traditional sense of inflicting pain; it inflicts fear, intense, visceral fear, without doing physical harm. It is a method calculated to straddle the definitions of coercion and torture, and as such merely proves that both methods inhabit the same slippery continuum. There is a difference between gouging out a man's eyes and keeping him awake, and waterboarding falls somewhere in between."Remember (talk) 19:38, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

The first four words are, "It is not torture." Thanks. Neutral Good (talk) 22:46, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Please stop misrepresenting the sources, the meaning is clear. "It is not torture in the traditional sense of inflicting pain" So its torture in an "untraditional sense" by inflicting something else, i wonder what that is? "it inflicts fear, intense, visceral fear," oh thanks for the info Mark Bowden, writer of Black Hawk Down and Killing Pablo. 23:03, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Read it again. You cannot reduce that passage to four words; to attempt to do so deforms the actual meaning of the passage. Badagnani (talk) 22:55, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

What he means is that it's an awful experience like torture, while at the same time it's still not technically torture. This is why USDOJ lawyers said it's not torture.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 06:39, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Please read it again. He does not say waterboarding is not a form of torture. He implies that he believes it is not a form of torture in the "traditional sense" (of inflicting pain), but instead in an "non-traditional sense" (by inflicting intense fear). As such, it is simply an opinion, and not one based on fact, because waterboarding is, according to the sources, capable of inflicting severe pain, as one is brought to the edge of death. Badagnani (talk) 06:44, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

An Entirely New Proposal for PROCESS

How about this:

Waterboarding consists of restraining a person and pouring water over their mouth and nose to induce a fear of drowning. It is widely considered torture.

This is not to be construed as a permanent lead but as a temporary lead. We just let it sit. Then we outline and work on the rest of the article and fashion a lead that characterizes the rest of the article in summary fashion. --Blue Tie (talk) 20:05, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• Support --Blue Tie (talk) 20:05, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose for reasons stated earlier; this lead is most unsatisfactory in that it must first be stated what it is (a form of torture), then it can be described. Badagnani (talk) 20:09, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• Widely considered is weasel words. It has no specific value. It needs to state who considers it? and again there has been no real arguement made that wasn't political motivated, suggesting it is as anything other than torture. I fail to see any arguement that international law it's a reliable source. --neonwhite user page talk 20:13, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

To both Neon White and Badagnani: It is just temporary. No need for it to be perfect yet (though it must still accord with policy). That is the idea. Are you basically opposed to anything that is not perfect in your mind even before the article is right? In other words, is there no room for compromise? --Blue Tie (talk) 20:17, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

There should be no compromise towards editors trying to use[REDACTED] articles to redefine defintions based on political or personal opinions contrary to a historical and popular defintion. That is a core policy. Personal opinions about the meaning of certain words are not relevant. Replacing a defintion with a more vague one is not improving the encyclopedia. Consider that this technique described is not used for any other reason. --neonwhite user page talk 20:21, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with your tone and also with your subrosa allegation toward me. I also disgree that I am replacing any definitions. I am following[REDACTED] policy. I think you should assume good faith. But I believe you are saying you are unable to do that. Do I understand you correctly -- that you are unable to assume good faith toward me? If so, then of course, you are also unable to view anything I do with an eye toward compromise. --Blue Tie (talk) 20:34, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Asuming good faith does not require that editors continue to assume good faith in the presence of evidence to the contrary None of my comments were any allegations, they were an assertion of core policy. --neonwhite user page talk 20:46, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, but the question remains: Can you assume good faith toward me? I know the policy does not require that you assume it when someone has done badly, but what about in my case? --Blue Tie (talk) 21:01, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• Support the general principle. I have yet to see anyone provide sources that say everyone considers it to be torture. -- Randy2063 (talk) 20:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Note that the General Principle is that we leave a lead that no one likes but which satisfies basic requirements and policy and move to the article. Then re-write the lead to summarize the article. --Blue Tie (talk) 20:58, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it is suggested that everyone considers it torture, what is true is that there are multiple reliable sources that consider it so (they were listed above somewhere) both popularily and historically. The amount is enough for us to consider it a verfiable fact. In opposition, there are only a handful of comment, none particularly reliable, that can't be given undue weight because they only represent a tiny minority of recent opinion. --neonwhite user page talk 21:01, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

"None particularly reliable." Several licensed attorneys -- one of them being a congressman, two others being former federal prosecutors -- aren't "particularly reliable"? Neutral Good (talk) 21:15, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

No-one has produced any second party reliable sources published in notable publications that suggest there is significant rejection of the idea that this is torture. A single congressman expressing a politically motivated statement is clearly a minority opinion and can not change the historical definition. --neonwhite user page talk 23:43, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

The sources are all opinions. It's a bit odd to characterize U.S. government attorneys as unreliable while those 100+ lawyers on the other side include a number of ideologues (and I'm being extraordinarily polite in calling them that).

-- Randy2063 (talk) 21:18, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Randy, regarding those 100+ lawyers, I ran online searches on the eight whose names started with the letter "A." On one of them, I couldn't find any information at all that would indicate her ideology. For the other seven, ALL OF THEM are left-wing ideologues. The most common thread I can find is an attempt to convince readers of their articles that all police, rather than a few bad apples, abuse their police powers. There is a general hostility toward the investigative and interrogative process. Apparently they believe that if a captured terrorist commander on enemy soil refuses to answer questions, we're supposed to ask him what kind of wine he would like to be served with his filet mignon.

Effective interrogations solve murder cases and save innocent lives. Lots of innocent lives. Neutral Good (talk) 23:02, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Expressing bias doesnt help you prove your edits are not based on your personal opinions. --neonwhite user page talk 23:46, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

"Effective interrogations solve murder cases" Which cases would those be???????? 23:16, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Your "filet mignon" comment is blatant hyperbole, mockery, and a straw man. Cut the sarcasm and stick to reasoned arguments, please. —Ka-Ping Yee (talk) 23:12, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

It may be sarcasm but it makes the point about these 100+ lawyers.

Please keep in mind that this comes out of Neon's criticism of U.S. government attorneys as having undue weight. That invites an examination and comparison. If it exposes those 100+ as possible extremists then that's an important point.

Say what you like about U.S. government lawyers but they're closer to the mainstream than this bunch.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 23:45, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

"If it exposes those 100+ as possible extremists" Yes they are just back from planting IED's on the streets of Bagdad, damn foiled again! 01:28, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Please, let's refrain from sarcasm on all sides. It's not helpful to achieving consensus, and will just make this process take even longer. henrik•talk 01:36, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

They were not lawyers, they were law professors, considered a reliable source in most cases. Add to that, not just the amount of sources but the range of sources and the quality, you have a good case for verifiablity. On the other hand we have the suggestion of a handful of vague comments and some politicians clearly skirting around the issue for political reasons, it does deserve the same weight. --neonwhite user page talk 23:53, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Are you saying that professors can't be extremists? (Again, look at who these people are.)

Note that I'm not asking that they be excluded. I'm just pointing out that they're hardly conclusive. The range of opinion on your side is not that wide. While you have some good sources, they're either not lawyers or they're not familiar with the exact procedure.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 01:23, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

To Randy2063 and NeutralGood: I don't understand your reasoning. You imply that waterboarding is effective and useful, perhaps even a good thing. That I understand. What I don't understand is why do you care then if it's called torture or not? If waterboarding is a good thing, is it not good even if it's torture? GregorB (talk) 00:05, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

You're asking the wrong guy. I'm not arguing that waterboarding is a good thing, and I don't think anyone here is. I'm not even asking that the word "torture" not be used.

Perhaps you should be asking the other side, why is it so important to you that we can't say "generally" when we say "torture"? Why must Misplaced Pages take sides when we have perfectly good standards to NPOV#Let the facts speak for themselves?

-- Randy2063 (talk) 01:23, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

It doesnt represent the sources properly or give weight to the majority opinion. I don't think anyone is in denial about the fact that the vast majority of reliable sources say it is. Fringe opinion or not minority opinion should not be given undue weight, unlije the majority opinion it has little detail and very few descriptive sources. For instance there has been nothing produced that can be said to be a study. --neonwhite user page talk 03:00, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Sure it represents the majority's opinion (although I'm not certain that the majority is who you think it is). This is what NPOV#Let the facts speak for themselves was made for.

Let's face it: One of those law professors now leads an organization that supported the Hitler-Stalin pact. It's not a majority most people would want to be on.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 06:52, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Now let me explain why I think the article should say waterboarding is torture. I could harp on about WP:RS, WP:WEIGHT and the like, but when I thought about all this, it seemed to me that it all boils down essentially to WP:DUCK (not an official policy, I know; also not about content, so duck test better describes the issue). I can't answer the following questions: 1) if WB is not torture, what is it?, 2) if WB is merely an "interrogation technique", akin to "good cop bad cop", how come people can't endure more than 14 seconds of it, on average?, 3) why exactly WB does not fit the definition given in United Nations Convention Against Torture (and ratified by the US of A, not some leftist lawyers) - or, alternatively, why is this definition wrong? These are questions that spring into mind almost at once and give you an unpleasant feeling, like an itch you can't scratch. If someone were to say to me that torture is beneficial and good, I'd have a much easier time with that assertion, because there are at least some arguments in its favor ("ticking clock" and what have you). But with "waterboarding is perhaps not torture", it's as if someone's saying that night is perhaps day - it is more difficult to stomach. GregorB (talk) 11:28, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Suppose it looks like a duck from 200 feet away? Is it still a duck? A hungry duck hunter might say a wild goose is close enough but that doesn't make them right.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 16:44, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Response to GregorB

GregorB, since you appear to be open to a reasonable discussion, I will invest the time to answer your concerns. First, allow me to point out that any harsh or "enhanced" interrogation technique could become torture if repeated often enough, or done harshly enough. Second, there are many, many different variations of waterboarding and the CIA version was less harsh than the others. Your questions: 1) If WB is not torture, what is it? Some forms of waterboarding are harsh interrogation techniques. They do not cross the line into what can fairly be defined as "torture." Other forms of waterboarding are even more harsh, and do in fact cross that line. Thus we have an article subject that "straddles" the line. 2) If WB is merely an "interrogation technique," akin to "good cop bad cop," how come people can't endure more than 14 seconds of it, on average? Even the less harsh US CIA method wasn't "merely" an interrogation technique. It was physically unpleasant, it induced a gag reflex, and it evoked the instinctive fear of drowning. That took it far beyond "good cop bad cop" but not quite into "torture." It also included an element of what makes "good cop bad cop" fairly effective because it tricked part of the mind into believing that there was a real risk of drowning when the reasonable, rational part of the mind knew there was no such risk. 3) why exactly WB does not fit the definition given in United Nations Convention Against Torture As practiced by the CIA, it caused neither the extreme physical pain and suffering, nor the extreme and prolonged mental suffering, required to satisfy UNCAT. 68.31.198.247 (talk)

• Comment - If you would like the facts to speak for themselves in regard to forms of torture, you should attempt to change the title of the article Rack (torture). Badagnani (talk) 01:28, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - This can be seen as part of a larger battle for public opinion (in the U.S.). If such editors can steer the Misplaced Pages article on waterboarding away from the normal, accepted definition, creating even a hint of ambiguity or ambivalence, that opens the door toward public ambivalence regarding this form of torture. Thus, the hammering over recent weeks. Misplaced Pages currently has enormous influence and is quoted constantly, even in the major press. Thus, this article has become a battleground. What is being sought is not a complete redefinition, but simply the introduction of doubt/ambiguity, creating the ambivalence/"shrug factor" among the general public of non-editing Misplaced Pages users. Badagnani (talk) 00:12, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Holding that view injures your ability to work toward consensus. --Blue Tie (talk) 02:22, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

A strong line must be taken against POV editing. --neonwhite user page talk 03:10, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for that support at least this time. However, I am not sure I would say "hard line". It should be discouraged -- but I would not be in agreement with hard-line because it seems to lack appropriate kindness. That is why I only reminded him that it injures consensus to insist on such views. --Blue Tie (talk) 03:21, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose It is quite clearly a form of torture. Whether its use may be justifiable, or information obtained admissible, are separate issues (usually not would be my answer to the first, and no to the second). "Water boarding is a form of torture ..." should be the start of the article. If some people disagree they are in a minority, and WP:FRINGE covers that quite clearly. 86.146.119.116 (talk) 23:34, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Log in and edit under your regular name, ok?--Blue Tie (talk) 02:24, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

No. This is my regular name, I have no other[REDACTED] name. What's so great about a made up name? If the only reason to dismiss my comment is that it comes from an IP, then I guess you must agree with the rest of it. How about I make up the name "NotBlueTie" NotBlueTie" 86.146.119.116 (talk) 12:41, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok. You sure know a great deal about[REDACTED] and how to edit for someone who has not been here a month!. If you want to call yourself "NotBlueTie" thats ok with me but I would think you would not want to run around with that sort of name. Of course one alternative that many people also do, is to use their real names. That way its not "made up"--Blue Tie (talk) 16:17, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - We have not been making a practice of harassing IPs by asking them to use their "regular" user names (nor have we for the single-purpose accounts that have sprung up solely for the purpose of editing this article, apparently from already-experienced editors). However, if we are now going to do that, please add such a harassing message under each IP posting, not just this one, as we must always be impartial in everything we do. Badagnani (talk) 02:41, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

You may not make that a practice but I do. This editor is clearly not a newbie -- understands how to edit on wikipedia. It is best for people to edit under their own names. Otherwise it can become a sockpuppet issue. The other editor did not provide any reason for me to suppose that they were anything but an anonymous drive by shooter. --Blue Tie (talk) 03:13, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

One look at the conributions of user 86.146.119.116 clearly shows this is not a 'single-purpose' account --neonwhite user page talk 03:04, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - No, Badagnani, you've just been harassing IPs by running Checkuser on them if they disagree with you and try to stand up for an NPOV article. Word is getting around. You do not own this article. You are trying to use it to push your POV. 70.9.150.106 (talk) 03:17, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah its very naughty! Its not like someone has been banned for two weeks for sockpuppetry, oh wait they have. 03:30, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Checking suspected sock puppets is not harassment under any policy it's a legitimate tool and all editors are free to use it. There was sufficient evidence or the check would not have been conducted. Please refrain from personal accusations. --neonwhite user page talk 04:19, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, it's not like over 90% of the people who have had Checkusers run on them have come back perfectly clean. Oh wait, they have. 70.9.150.106 (talk) 03:48, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

How about logging in and posting under your regular name?--Blue Tie (talk) 16:14, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

’’’Support.’’’ 71.114.17.179 (talk) 01:05, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. The current lead is fine. Waterboarding is torture, and it's horrifying that any discussion is required about this point. To see how another online encyclopedia handles this, see the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy's entry on torture. (Though it is an online encyclopedia, the SEP is written by experts and has an editorial board, and is thus an excellent source.) --Akhilleus (talk) 04:26, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

The Stanford Encyclopedia supports Blue Tie. Thanks for bringing it to our attention. First, it defines waterboarding as "continuously immersing the head in water until close to point of drowning." In a genuine waterboarding case, even if the subject is secured to an inclined board, the head is never completely immersed (submerged) in water. Instead, water is poured over the nose and mouth to elicit a gag reflex.

Second, the SEP says, "orture is the infliction of extreme physical suffering" But in Evan Wallach's article in the Washington Post, also cited by "waterboarding is torture" advocates, a Filipino waterboarding subject was interviewed:

Q. Was it painful?

A. Not so painful, but one becomes unconscious. Like drowning in the water.

Now let's go back to the SEP: "Is the intentional infliction of extreme mental suffering ... necessarily torture? Michael Davis thinks not ... So torture is the intentional infliction of extreme physical suffering ..." But as we have seen from Wallach's interview with the Filipino, waterboarding doesn't involve extreme physical suffering. Thus the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy supports the argument that waterboarding is not torture in all cases. Thanks for bringing that to our attention, Akhilleus. 70.9.150.106 (talk) 06:05, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

70.9.150.106, I can't tell if you've been editing for very long, but if you're new here you should probably review Misplaced Pages's no original research policy. The argument you're making is an example of original synthesis to make a point that the source doesn't make. Indeed, the SEP unequivocally says that waterboarding is torture, so your argument is in fact distorting what the SEP says. Misrepresenting sources is not a good editing practice; please try to avoid it in the future. --Akhilleus (talk) 06:41, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Anon 70, I appreciate the support. I am not sure that the encyclopedia quote you gave supports my position though. My position is that the status of waterboarding as torture is disputed. I do not disagree with those who say it is torture. I am not disgreeing with those who say it is not. I am just saying it is disputed. I also take the position that there are a variety of ways of conducting waterboarding, some are relatively innocuous and some are horrific to the subjects. Your cite suggests some alternative that involves "continuously immersing the head", which would be new to me, though Chris has indicated that he has some references to support it. Thats a version that I am not aware of. But it points to the variety of methods. I also, like Akhilleus, would think that looking up one definition, then looking at a description would violate WP:SYN. It is an argument that many people use to declare waterboarding as torture -- but it is invalid. If you look at the example in WP:SYN, there you can see that technique of drawing a conclusion is specifically condemned. As an aside, I do not insist on it, but it would be nice if you would log in under a name if you have one. --Blue Tie (talk) 16:28, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Response to Blue Tie

Hello Blue Tie, and thanks for your kind reply. My position on this matter seems most consistent with yours. I'm not sure that I understand why you feel that my position is a violation of WP:SYN; please elaborate. I've never had an account here, always editing from my rapidly shifting IP address and never leaving much of a trail. I like it, though it does have its disadvantages. If you prefer, I'll add the word "Bob" before my tildes so that people can keep track of me. Is that comfortable for you? Regards, Bob 68.31.227.84 (talk)

Hi Bob. Yes I think it would make conversations easier if you put that name there. I do not mind that you want to be anonymous. I edited here anonymously for a while, and was reluctant to get a name. So I understand that. But I have found it helps people work with you. As far as WP:SYN, I think that deserves a special section so look the bottom of this page. --Blue Tie (talk) 17:08, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Response to Akhilleus

Akhilleus, thanks for your concern but I'm familiar with WP:NOR and I've just read it again. The SEP defines "waterboarding" as something other than what Misplaced Pages defines. The SEP says that waterboarding is "continuously immersing the head in water" That's not original research. That's reading what the source itself says. Obviously the source is discussing another interrogation technique and calling it "waterboarding."

In the alternative, we might choose to try changing the Misplaced Pages definition of the term "waterboarding" to include the technique that the SEP has described. But then we have to carefully explain that the term "waterboarding" encompasses a vast array of different techniques and that the SEP wasn't talking about the CIA technique. 68.31.198.247 (talk) 11:48, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

We already have two reliably sourced references that waterboarding can be carried out by immersion. Those two sources actually suggest that this is the "modern form". See Talk:Waterboarding/Definition. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 13:32, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for responding, Chris. I've read the Talk:Waterboarding/Definition page. Neither source specifies that the CIA technique involved immersion of the head. Also, we're not talking about that page alone. We're talking about what needs to go into the article. 70.9.157.130 (talk) 14:37, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

References

1. Lawmakers: Mukasey must reject "waterboarding", Reuters via Yahoo News, October 29, 2007
2. ^ Eban, Katherine (July 17 2007). "Rorschach and Awe". Vanity Fair. Retrieved 2007-12-17. It was terrifying," military psychologist Bryce Lefever is quoted as saying, "... you're strapped to an inclined gurney and you're in four-point restraint, your head is almost immobilized, and they pour water between your nose and your mouth, so if you're likely to breathe, you're going to get a lot of water. You go into an oxygen panic. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help) Cite error: The named reference "EbanVanityFairWB1" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).
3. ^ White, Josh (November 8 2007). "Waterboarding Is Torture, Says Ex-Navy Instructor". Washington Post. Retrieved 2007-12-17. As the event unfolded, I was fully conscious of what was happening: I was being tortured. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help) Cite error: The named reference "WhiteWAPostWB_110807" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).
4. ^ Ross, Brian; Esposito, Richard (November 8 2007). "CIA's Harsh Interrogation Techniques Described". ABC News. Retrieved 2007-12-17. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help) Cite error: The named reference "ABCNewsWB_110807" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).
5. ^ Various (April 5, 2006). "Open Letter to Attorney General Alberto Gonzales". Human Rights News. Retrieved 2007-12-18. In a letter to Attorney General Alberto Gonzales more than 100 United States law professors stated unequivocally that waterboarding is torture, and the use of the practice is a criminal felony punishable under the U.S. federal criminal code. Cite error: The named reference "HRW open letter WB" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).
6. ^ Mayer, Jane (2005-02-14). "Outsourcing Torture". The New Yorker. Retrieved 2007-12-18. Dr. Allen Keller, the director of the Bellevue/N.Y.U. Program for Survivors of Torture, told me that he had treated a number of people who had been subjected to such forms of near-asphyxiation, and he argued that it was indeed torture. Some victims were still traumatized years later, he said. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help) Cite error: The named reference "NY" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).
7. ^ Shane, Scott (2007-11-07). "A Firsthand Experience Before Decision on Torture". New York Times. Retrieved 2007-12-18. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help) Cite error: The named reference "NYTimesWB_110707" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).
8. Davis, Benjamin (2007-10-08). "Endgame on Torture: Time to Call the Bluff". University of Pittsburgh School of Law. Retrieved 2007-12-18. Waterboarding has been torture for at least 500 years. All of us know that torture is going on. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
9. "Carter says U.S. tortures prisoners". CNN. 2007-10-10. Retrieved 2007-12-18. The United States tortures prisoners in violation of international law, former President Carter said Wednesday. 'I don't think it. I know it,' Carter told CNN's Wolf Blitzer. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
10. "French Journalist Henri Alleg Describes His Torture Being Waterboarded by French Forces During Algerian War". Democracy Now!. 2007-11-05. Retrieved 2007-12-18. I have described the waterboarding I was submitted to. And no one can say, having passed through it, that this was not torture, especially when he has endured other types of torture—burning, electricity and beating, and so on. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
11. "Torture's Terrible Toll". Newsweek. 2005-11-21. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)According to Republican United States Senator and 2008 presidential candidate John McCain, who was tortured as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam, waterboarding is "torture, no different than holding a pistol to his head and firing a blank" and can damage the subject's psyche "in ways that may never heal."
12. Grey, Stephen (2006). Ghost Plane: The True Story of the CIA Torture Program. New York, New York: St. Martin's Press. pp. 225–226. A former senior official in the directorate of operations is quoted (in full) as saying: "'Of course it was torture. Try it and you'll see.'" Another "former higher-up in the directorate of operations" said "'Yes, it's torture'".
13. Bell, Nicole (2007-11-03). "Retired JAGs Send Letter To Leahy: "Waterboarding is inhumane, it is torture, and it is illegal."". Crooks and Liars. Retrieved 2007-12-18. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameters: |(empty string)= and |coauthors= (help) "Waterboarding is inhumane, it is torture, and it is illegal." and "Waterboarding detainees amounts to illegal torture in all circumstances." From Rear Admiral Donald J. Guter, United States Navy (Ret.) Judge Advocate General of the Navy, 2000-02; Rear Admiral John D. Hutson, United States Navy (Ret.) Judge Advocate General of the Navy, 1997-2000; Major General John L. Fugh, United States Army (Ret.) Judge Advocate General of the Army, 1991-93; Brigadier General David M. Brahms, United States Marine Corps (Ret.) Staff Judge Advocate to the Commandant, 1985-88.
14. "CIA Whitewashing Torture". Human Rights Watch. 2005-11-21. Retrieved 2007-12-18. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help) "There is no doubt that waterboarding is torture, despite the administration’s reluctance to say so,” Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch.
15. "Amnesty International Response to Cheney's "No-Brainer" Comment". Amnesty International. 2006-10-26. Retrieved 2007-12-18. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
16. "U.S. Dept. of Justice Memo from Deputy Assistant Attorney General John Yoo To Alberto R. Gonzales, White House Counsel". Findlaw. 2002-08-01. Retrieved 2007-12-21. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help) " 'For an act to be "torture," it must ... cause severe pain and suffering, and be intended to cause severe pain and suffering.' ... n order to inflict severe mental suffering, a defendant both must commit one of the four predicate acts, such as threatening imminent death, and intend to cause 'prolonged mental harm.' "
17. "Waterboarding and Torture" (in "So is waterboarding torture? ... I don't believe it qualifies."). National Review Online. 2007-10-27. Retrieved 2007-12-21. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)CS1 maint: unrecognized language (link)
18. ^ "History of an Interrogation Technique: Water Boarding". World News with Charles Gibson. ABC News. 2005-11-29. Retrieved 2007-12-18. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
19. ^ "Secret U.S. Endorsement of Severe Interrogations". New York Times. 2007-10-04. Retrieved 2007-12-18. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
20. In April 2006, in a letter to Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez., more than 100 U.S. law professors stated unequivocally that waterboarding is torture, and is a criminal felony punishable under the U.S. federal criminal code.
21. According to Republican United States Senator John McCain, who was tortured as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam, waterboarding is "torture, no different than holding a pistol to his head and firing a blank" and can damage the subject's psyche "in ways that may never heal." - Torture's Terrible Toll, Newsweek, November 21, 2005. | http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10019179/site/newsweek/page/2/ ]
22. In its 2005 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices, the U.S. Department of State formally recognizes "submersion of the head in water" as torture in its examination of Tunisia's poor human rights record, U.S. Department of State (2005). "Tunisia". Country Reports on Human Rights Practices. {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |month= (help)
23. A former senior official in the directorate of operations is quoted (in full) as saying: "'Of course it was torture. Try it and you'll see.'" Another "former higher-up in the directorate of operations" said "'Yes, it's torture'". At pp. 225-26, in Stephen Grey (2006). Ghost Plane: The True Story of the CIA Torture Program. New York City: St. Martin's Press.
24. Chapter 18 United States Code, section 2340
25. UN Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, 1984 Signatories 74, Parties 136, As of 23 April 2004
26. Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court Article 7, "Crimes against humanity" Definition of torture 7-2:e
27. Endgame on Torture: Time to Call the Bluff Waterboarding has been torture for at least 500 years. All of us know that torture is going on.
28. Former US President Jimmy Carter stated "The United States tortures prisoners in violation of international law" and continued "I don't think it.... I know it" in a CNN interview on October the 10th 2007
29. "Variety of Interrogation Techniques Said to Be Authorized by CIA" by Brian Ross and Richard Esposito, September 6, 2006
30. "History of an Interrogation Technique: Water Boarding" ABC News, November 29, 2005
31. Evan Wallach (2007). "Drop by Drop: Forgetting the History of Water Torture in U.S. Courts" (Note: PDF is rough draft copy). The Columbia Journal of Transnational Law. 45 (2).

The range of waterboarding

One of the problems we, as editors, have with this article is that there is a large, majority group who declare that "waterboarding is torture" and another who declare that "maybe it is, maybe it isn't" and there is not much listening between the two viewpoints. I've come to the conclusion that some of you, especially in the majority, don't know what the range of actions covered by the term "waterboarding" really is.

One form has been done to willing "victims" in televised demonstrations; the victims lined up to be repeatedly "waterboarded". Again and again, they willingly submitted to this torture (or so they called it.)

I submit that any procedure for which "victims" repeatedly volunteer is not torture. It may look to an onlooker like torture, it may be unpleasant, but it's torture theatre; I doubt that the victims would be repeatedly volunteering for 120VAC stimulation of their sexual organs, or to have holes drilled in their kneecaps, amputations, or any of a number of other things that we would all agree were torture.

I'll preface the following fictional description of "real waterboarding" from the 1960s by saying that I don't know whether it was the CIA, KGB, or some other group that discovered that the real immersion was not needed, that wetting the skin in certain parts of the body, with some other conditions, would elicit the gag/vomit/drown reflexes. It is absolutely unpleasant, but I am not sure (see the line of people lining up to do it again and again) that it is so unpleasant as to be called torture.

This is. The subject is sleeping, after being kept awake several days. He is blindfolded and taken to a large room. His clothing is removed. He is bound face down to a diving board a few inches above the water in the strongly chlorinated pool, with his chin over the end of the board. Someone walks out on the board, immersing his face in the pool. After a brief time, signaled by people observing the subject, he walks back, allowing the face to emerge from the water, and the victim to breathe. This is done repeatedly, until the victim is unconscious. At this point, there may be a break in the proceeding, after which it resumes. Eventually, while unconscious, he is removed from the board and taken back to his room, where he is dried and dressed as he was before he was taken away. When he wakes, there is no evidence that any of this happened to him. It could have been a nightmare.

This may be done several times.

Finally, one day, when he's given water, it's heavily chlorinated, like the water in the pool. The smell ....

I do not think you would see people lining up to volunteer repeatedly to be subjected to this; and because this activity is called "waterboarding", that's why I wonder if all of the activities described as "waterboarding" should be called torture. I think that the differences are sufficient that some of them are probably not.

Thanks for reading. This is not only OR, it is original fiction. No one had anything done to them in the making of this post. You might be able to find some sources that describe this; I did not look. Verification is different than both reality and fantasy. htom (talk) 07:21, 31 December 2007 (UTC) ---

You say "any procedure for which "victims" repeatedly volunteer is not torture". I'm afraid that is easily disprovable. Look in any undergraduate psychology textbook. The fact that someone may not find the experience tortuous (as they have heavily trained, or just feel the torture is worth the publicity or whatever), or may have a goal that allows them to endure the torture (seeking fame again, or wanting to "prove" that it isn't torture). Also, anecdotes don't count as evidence. The fact is by any reasonable definition of torture, waterboarding is torture. Claiming that some forms of waterboarding are not torture is misleading in the extreme 86.146.119.116 (talk) 12:36, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

My own opinion is that the primary reason that volunteers repeatedly subject themselves to whatever it is, is that they trust those doing the whatever, and feel that they are somehow "in control" during the procedure. In some of the cases, as well, it looks a bit like there's a safe word or jesture involved. In a torture situation, there is neither trust nor safety, and, as you point out, no reward. htom (talk) 17:18, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

"in televised demonstrations; the victims lined up to be repeatedly "waterboarded"" What television programme is this? If you can provide a reliably sourced citation this is probably worth including in the article. However, it says nothing about whether it is torture or not, as the above commentator points out, there are some people who would willingly undergo torture in exchange for fame, money, proving a point etc. Also, due to legal and liability issues, it is extremely unlikely that a television programme would subject people to waterboarding as practiced by real interrogators, where it is possible (though perhaps unlikely) that the subject may suffer some permanent physical damage or even death. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 13:17, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Street theatre demonstrations; google "youtube waterboarding demonstrations", you'll have an assortment. The one I had seen was outside the Justice Department, but that one seems to have been taken down. htom (talk) 17:18, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCDs2JXA71U Video says it all! 18:00, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

It is worth mentioning as part of the "US controversy" bit of the article. However, Youtube is a primary source and not a reliable source. Please provide some citations to reliable sources discussing these demonstrations. Also, the narrator himself says that this isn't waterboarding as practiced for real - he says they're using a sheet of plastic below the towel to mostly block the inhalation of water; this is a theatrical production, and should be cited as such. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 18:12, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Arguments from Synthesis

The[REDACTED] policy on Original Research says:

Editors often make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article to advance position C. However, this would be an example of a new synthesis of published material serving to advance a position, and as such it would constitute original research. "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published this argument in relation to the topic of the article.

Here is how this error can and does occur on this page.

Starting with A = “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control

Next is B = Human Rights Watch has claimed that it carries the risks of extreme pain, damage to the lungs, brain damage caused by oxygen deprivation, injuries (including broken bones) due to struggling against restraints, and even death. The psychological effects on victims of waterboarding can last for years after the procedure

Our Conclusion is C = Waterboarding is defined as torture

We state: A and B therefore C. A specific example from above: Waterboarding is torture, and it's horrifying that any discussion is required about this point. To see how another online encyclopedia handles this, see the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy's entry on torture. (Implication -- a source describes torture, waterboarding meets that description, therefore waterboarding is torture)

Another example from above: SEP says, "orture is the infliction of extreme physical suffering" But in Evan Wallach's article in the Washington Post, also cited by "waterboarding is torture" advocates, a Filipino waterboarding subject was interviewed: Q. Was it painful? A. Not so painful, but one becomes unconscious. Like drowning in the water. Now let's go back to the SEP: "Is the intentional infliction of extreme mental suffering ... necessarily torture? Michael Davis thinks not ... So torture is the intentional infliction of extreme physical suffering ..." (SEP says torture involves pain, other source says there is no pain, therefore waterboarding is not torture).

These are both versions of the same SYN problem.

This is in direct violation of the Synthesis portion of Original Research and cannot be used in article editing. --Blue Tie (talk) 17:28, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Is anyone actually reading the SEP entry? Apparently not. The relevant sentence is: "Torture includes such practices as searing with hot irons, burning at the stake, electric shock treatment to the genitals, cutting out parts of the body, e.g. tongue, entrails or genitals, severe beatings, suspending by the legs with arms tied behind back, applying thumbscrews, inserting a needle under the fingernails, drilling through an unanesthetized tooth, making a person crouch for hours in the ‘Z’ position, waterboarding (continuously immersing the head in water until close to point of drowning), and denying food, water or sleep for days or weeks on end."

Apparently, the use of the word "immersing" is a problem for some editors here. But the SEP is obviously describing the same technique that this article is about, and nitpicking about the definition of "immersing" doesn't change that. This isn't OR/SYN--the SEP explicitly says that waterboarding is torture. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:42, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I am not clear on why you chose this section to make this comment. This section is about bad synthesis. It is not about the SEP article. --Blue Tie (talk) 07:41, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

It's simple, Blue Tie; in your comment above, you say that I've engaged in original synthesis. I'm pointing out that the SEP explicitly says that waterboarding is torture. Therefore, I did not engage in original synthesis. This should have been obvious to anyone who read the SEP article, and therefore, I think you hadn't read it when you made the comment that starts this section. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:35, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I would say that the SEP was obviously describing the activity in my story above (continuously immersing the head in water until close to point of drowning), and not the splashing and pouring of water on the face being demonstrated in the various youtube videos. htom (talk) 18:57, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks htom. I would add that the SEP definition clearly excludes the CIA technique, since no RS describes the CIA technique as "submersion" or "immersion." That isn't a misrepresentation despite the claims by Akhilleus above. Nor is it a violation of WP:SYN. That policy specifically describes an allowance for making inescapable conclusions based on RS. Regards, Bob 68.31.74.100 (talk) 19:13, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

This is tendentious nitpicking. The SEP entry was written recently and relies on sources as recent as 2005. To pretend that the article is talking about something other than what's in the news right now is disingenuous. --Akhilleus (talk) 19:21, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

There's nothing tendentious about it, and I'm not pretending. The SEP def specifies "immersion." No RS says that the CIA technique ever involved immersion. Regards, Bob 70.9.228.223 (talk) 20:09, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

So you are seriously saying that you think the SEP article has no relevance to waterboarding? You actually think that someone writing about waterboarding in 2005 wouldn't be thinking about the CIA's interrogation techniques? That's ridiculous. --Akhilleus (talk) 21:51, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I personally think that the SEP article has waterboarding wrong. It does not involve continuous immersion in any other source that I have read, so I read the SEP citation with squinty eyes. --Blue Tie (talk) 07:41, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

No, I'm saying that when you read what it actually says, it supports Blue Tie's position. It's relevant, but not in the way you thought. Regards, Bob 68.29.181.8 (talk) 02:44, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

General Warning

I've had enough with the POV pushing, semantic nit picking and rules lawyering. We also have sock puppetry going on here. If the editors causing the disruption do not desist and engage in peaceful discussion, I am going to take stronger measures to control the situation. Jehochman 17:51, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Hello Jonathan. I'm not sure that's the correct approach with a crowd like this. It's a very contentious topic and it's clear there are POV pushers on both sides. The split is about 50/50. The consequences are enormous, because it could define the government of the most powerful nation in the world as a gang of war criminals. And there are a lot of people at all levels of the CIA and DOD who would have to share that indictment. So the WP:BLP fallout could be devastating. Remember, Valerie Plame (another CIA employee) didn't hesitate to take legal action.

This is an area where the Misplaced Pages project needs to be very, very careful. Somebody in a position of authority needs to step in and cut this Gordian knot, resolve the dispute about this article in a careful and cautious manner in obedience to all policies, and liberate all the energy currently being invested in this fight to be used constructively elsewhere. Regards, Bob 68.31.7.232 (talk) 18:41, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages has 1400 administrators. We are the ones charged with maintaining order. If this problem becomes to much for me and my fellow administrators to handle, I will ask the Arbitration Committee for help. Jehochman 19:23, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I didn't mean to imply otherwise, Jonathan. Explanation: this is clearly an impasse. Both sides are brandishing their own interpretations of Misplaced Pages policy. Would you please offer your own interpretation to resolve this matter? And if not, is there someone else who will do so, and who is in a sufficient position of authority that all will accept his ruling as final? This jury is deadlocked, Your Honor. Regards, Bob 68.31.74.100 (talk) 19:32, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

No, the jury is not deadlocked. We don't decide based on votes. We decide based on consensus and the strength of arguments. My reading of the RfC results to date is that a vast majority of reliable sources state that waterboarding is a form of torture. Like it or not, as an encyclopedia we must rely upon what the secondary sources say. If reliable sources can be found, the article might contain a small section that explains who claims waterboarding is not torture, and explain their rationale with citations to references. The person opinion of editors does not matter. What matters is what the reliable sources say. If the RfC ends with the same results as we see now, those who continue to edit war against consensus may need to be banned from editing this article. Jehochman 19:38, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Is there an RfC on this subject? Where may it be found? Badagnani (talk) 19:42, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Here: Talk:Waterboarding/Definition henrik•talk 20:18, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I am in complete agreement with Jehochman on this issue, this article needs all editors to try to civilly and rationally work out the disagreements without throwing accusations, wikilawyering and relentlessly pushing their own view with no sign of willingness to find consensus. Those who can not abide by these terms and work constructively should probably edit other, less contentious, articles. henrik•talk 20:18, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how we could need any more input on this. I'll say again that this isn't about whether waterboarding is torture or is not torture. It's about whether it's "generally torture" or "always torture".

The contentious part is really whether the U.S. DOJ lawyers might have a valid argument after they've examined the process.

But, yet again, no one says it's never torture. The only question is whether Misplaced Pages says "generally" at the top. Everything else is something we can muddle through.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 20:58, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Article probation and sockpuppetry

See also: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Article probation.

I see that article probation is now being potentially reviewed for this before the situation escalates to artibitration. I think this would be a wonderful idea, for administratively enforced probation on article and all talk pages. There is no reasonable evidence to believe these people are different. Most of the RFCU confirmed socks for the same IP all have history of working on the Free Republic article. That includes the IP of one of the worst trolls this site has apparently known, this Palatine character, who had that as his major problem. That IP, plus a host of others with the same language, tone and curious identical ```support``` language all arrive at once on the waterboarding talk page, at the same time, and all with the exact same stance? If not entirely sockpuppetry it's flagrant meatpuppetry. Either is a rules violation. Do you really think it's a coincidence that all' these unique human beings, all using the same ISP, all with matching political viewpoints, all with matching oddball habits of forming their ```support``` !votes, and all with basically the same language all arrived independent of each other, as soon as the "consensus" fight began to turn, and there were basically two people on the non-torture side of the debate? I've got a swell bridge for you too, that's only moderately used. Lawrence Cohen 19:15, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I do not know and I do not care about this issue. --Blue Tie (talk) 19:20, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, if it is sockpuppetry and stacking the discussion, it's a major problem. No one editor is entitled to more weight in discussion than any other. It is a bannable offense to game the system this way. It must be stopped if and when it happens, as soon as possible, since it is destructive. Lawrence Cohen 19:55, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Exactly where is "article probation is now being potentially reviewed for this before the situation escalates to artibitration"? Badagnani (talk) 20:04, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Sorry, here: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Article probation. Lawrence Cohen 20:08, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Waterboarding is generally torture

User:Randy2063 has suggested a couple of times that the phrasing "is generally torture" might be a good compromise. I'm willing to go with that. So, how about it?

Waterboarding consists of immobilizing a person on his or her back, usually with the head inclined downward, and pouring water over the face and into the breathing passages. It is generally considered a form of torture.

If this will put the current argument to rest, I think it will be a big step forward. —Ka-Ping Yee (talk) 22:06, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. The "less cruel" form and the "more cruel" form of waterboarding are both forms of torture, and have been considered as such since the 15th century, by all but four U.S. Republican politicians and conservative opinion columnists. The proposed change is being forced for political/POV reasons, attempting to redefine a well understood term so as to create a sense that this practice is acceptable. As such, this is an abuse of Misplaced Pages's inclusive, consensus practice. Badagnani (talk) 22:17, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree, governments that are involved in the use of torture can be expected to deny it. I'm sure the spanish inquisition, the japanese and french army, the VC etc all would have denied it too at the time but it doesn't really change the nature of it. Many war crimes are denied, hitler probably denied genoside and some people continue to deny but it does not change the verified facts presented in the article. --neonwhite user page talk 23:26, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you that waterboarding is a form of torture, but I don't understand why this means the article can't say "waterboarding is generally considered torture." —Ka-Ping Yee (talk) 00:26, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I think part of the problem is that only a extreme minority of people seem to feel it's only sometimes torture, based on the available sourcing, and all these individuals all appear to be from one geographic/political region, which further drives that opinion into the fringe category. If it were widely spread, or global, but alas... it's all from one country. Lawrence Cohen 01:11, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose: one might be a worse torture than the other, but this does not change the fact that they are both torture. Lawrence also makes a good point above about the fringe nature of what might be referred to, for the want of a good existing shorthand term, as "torture denialism". -- The Anome (talk) 01:23, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

• Comment You see what's happening here, Randy? There are certain people who will never compromise. They will never accept a lead that doesn't start out by saying "Waterboarding is torture" in six words or less. Neutral Good (talk) 02:36, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

• Comment Lawrence, you claimed "If it were widely spread, or global, but alas... it's all from one country." Do you have any proof that there is absolutely no one, anywhere but in the US, who isn't absolutely sure that each and every act that has ever been called "waterboarding" is torture? I must confess that I have grown sick and tired of people who continually misrepresent the state of the evidence. When you speak in absolutes, you invite demands for absolute proof. You think the world is all black and white, but there are shades of gray. This is one of them. Neutral Good (talk) 02:58, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

• You're attacking a straw man. It is not necessary to prove the extreme absolute you describe, because no one is suggesting that the article should say, "There is absolutely no one outside the U. S. who isn't absolutely sure that each and every act that has ever been called 'waterboarding' is torture." You made that sentence up. What we must do as Misplaced Pages editors is gather the available evidence (so far we have found evidence of dissenting opinions in the U. S., and haven't found evidence of a significant dispute elsewhere) and then represent that evidence fairly (the article can say there exists recent dispute in the U. S., but it cannot give the impression that there is a general dispute everywhere). You've used this same straw man before, I believe — kindly put it to rest. —Ka-Ping Yee (talk) 03:48, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Nor can you claim that in the entire world, except for the United States, it's well-settled that all forms of waterboarding are torture - which is what Lawrence just claimed, Ping. Allow me to present a hypothetical scenario. Little Timmy goes swimming at the community swimming pool. But there are a couple of big bad bullies from the sixth grade who feel like picking on him. One of them sneaks up behind Little Timmy and pins his arms behind his back. The other starts splashing water into Little Timmy's face, yelling "Say uncle! Say uncle!" (The lifeguard is too busy looking at pretty girls to notice.)

After about 15 seconds of thrashing around, Little Timmy splutters, "Uncle!" And the two big bad bullies let him go and wade away, laughing. Do you really think Little Timmy experienced severe physical suffering? Do you really think he will be emotionally scarred for life after 15 seconds of having water splashed in his face? If you can't answer "Yes" to either of those questions, Little Timmy wasn't tortured. Neutral Good (talk) 05:03, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Completely off-topic. Stick to the issue at hand, please. —Ka-Ping Yee (talk) 06:20, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Not at all off-topic. The unwilling victim is forced to participate. htom (talk) 06:31, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

But not, apparently, waterboarded. Enough with the non-sequiturs, already. -- The Anome (talk) 12:33, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I dunno about that. The much-discussed AP photo (Vietnam, January 1968) indicates that securing the person to a board is not required. All that is required to be called "waterboarding" is securing the person's limbs so that he cannot resist, and splashing water into his nose and mouth. And I notice that the "waterboarding is torture" advocates are eager to claim that the 1st Cavalry soldier who participated was court-martialed for "waterboarding," not some other offense. Was Little Timmy tortured? I can't help noticing that all the "waterboarding is torture" advocates are refusing to answer this question. Neutral Good (talk) 14:31, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

See Straw man. 14:44, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

(conflict)

One of the things the article should say is that before 2001 there was very little citable discussion of waterboarding, whether public, academic, or non-academic, disputatious or not, anywhere. A brief search of googlenews shows that in 1998-1999 the five stories are about an activity that seems related to barefoot waterskiing, none in 2000-2001, and six in 2002 (one of which is still about waterskiing.)htom (talk) 06:31, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

BS we have a french journalist from the fifties saying it was torture. 13:10, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

BS we have the Mississippi Supreme Court in 1926 saying its torture. Now Stop misrepresenting the sources. 13:18, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I said "very little", not "no". Your citations go to proving my point; there was very little discussion. Still waiting for that retraction, btw. htom (talk) 16:29, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Do you have a reliably sourced citation that there was "very little discussion before 2001"? For what it's worth, I actually agree that there was very little discussion - in Talk:Waterboarding/Definition we have several references to reliable sources before 2001 that all refer to the act as torture, and we have no references before 2001 that describe the act as not torture, or describe any "debate" over whether it is or isn't torture. But if you have some reliably sourced historic references that say it isn't, or it is debatable that it is, torture, then please add them to Talk:Waterboarding/Definition so that they can be considered along with the rest of the evidence. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 18:29, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I do not like it but I do not hate it. I think its not a very good sentence. Too vague. --Blue Tie (talk) 07:42, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

We have no need to prove a negative. Negative values, or lack of information, don't matter here. If there is sourced information, it can be added. Unsourced information, if challenged, must be sorted. Simply put, lacking evidence provided to the contrary, we can only know that American sources dispute this torture matter. Lawrence Cohen 10:43, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

That wasn't a negative. You were affirmatively stating that nowhere, outside of the United States, is there anyone who disagrees that all forms of waterboarding are torture. Tempest in a teapot. Just don't misrepresent the evidence again. There is no proof to support such an absolute statement. Neutral Good (talk) 17:47, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Provide sources that demonstrate this disagreement is not a minority viewpoint limited to one geographic area. Lawrence Cohen 19:00, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Resuming statements of support or opposition on consensus

• Support - Let's get this over with. Neutral Good (talk) 17:47, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

• Support. Cuts the Gordian knot. Regards, Bob 68.29.195.234 (talk) 18:31, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

As said below, this RfC has already has had a clear consensus result (see practically every other part of this page for evidence) in favour of keeping the plain "is" wording. Re-opening vote after vote until you get the result you want from a tiny minority of those contributing, and then claiming consensus, is not the way to go. -- The Anome (talk) 18:54, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

"Tiny minority"???? Looks like about 50/50 to me. Neutral Good (talk) 19:30, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

• Moo I have not seen clear consensus from the RfC. But also I do not know what we are voting on here. --Blue Tie (talk) 18:59, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

What we're voting on, Blue Tie, is the "generally" lead first proposed by Randy, and formally offered by Ping. I think it's a good idea and a big step in the right direction. And the RfC was very poorly constructed. Neutral Good (talk) 19:30, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose - This does not need to be "resumed" as the discussion was already ongoing just above. However, if another statement is now necessary I will add it again. The "less cruel" form and the "more cruel" form of waterboarding are both forms of torture, and have been considered as such since the 15th century, by all but four U.S. Republican politicians and conservative opinion columnists. The proposed change is being forced for political/POV reasons, attempting to redefine a well understood term so as to create a sense that this practice is acceptable. As such, this is an abuse of Misplaced Pages's inclusive, consensus practice. Badagnani (talk) 19:39, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

You already expressed opposition above and it is abundantly clear. Please delete. Neutral Good (talk) 21:25, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

No need to discuss this in wartime

I feel that this page should be deleted until the current conflict in the Middle East is over. -Roofus (talk) 07:14, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Whether the US was at peacetime or war doesn't matter, and neither does a sensitive nature of a matter. If it is published in realible sources, it can be discussed here, forever. Lawrence Cohen 10:44, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Roofus, can you explain why you think this article should be deleted until that time? -- The Anome (talk) 12:30, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

The answer is simple, the more we talk about this the less likely the CIA will be allowed to torture people. 13:14, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

That has really nothing to do with improving this article. Please focus on that, rather than making this discussion page a political forum. If you wish to influence US government policy, there are more appropriate venues. henrik•talk 13:46, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

And no, this page isn't going to be deleted. henrik•talk 14:37, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Mediation probably needed

These discussions are getting nowhere. We probably need mediation. --Blue Tie (talk) 14:48, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

How about informal mediation rather than formal mediation, first? --Blue Tie (talk) 15:03, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

We just had an RfC with a clear result. What exactly do you want to mediate? Based on reliable sources, the community agrees that waterboarding is torture, except for a few tendentious editors who seem to be bringing a political dispute onto Misplaced Pages. Jehochman 15:12, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

First, I see no clear result from the RfC. None. Second, the RfC was badly constructed and even a clear result would not have cleared up the issue because of the poor construction. Third, it is policy that consensus on a page cannot trump generally agreed upon widely held policies. See WP:CON. Fourth, it appears to me that several things are happening:

A. Some folks insist on certain wording that it is torture and they are using sources to validate their view.

B. Other folks insist that it is NOT torture and are using sources to validate their view.

C. The folks in group A, claim that they have the majority view and so their view should prevail.

D. I (alone) am insisting that this is not a question[REDACTED] can decide and it must only report. I rest all of my views in[REDACTED] policy and some sources that support that view. I particularly believe that my position is the most neutral, the most consistent with[REDACTED] standards, and yet is is never given any consideration by either side.

I do not think that there is any consensus and there is a need to bring the article to consensus. I have tried a few different ideas. In particular, convinced that if we work on the article and then summarize it in the lead, we could achieve consensus, I proposed that we drop our concerns for the lead and work in the article. This is not acceptable. People WANT to fight over the lead -- and both sides have a specific outside pov that they bring to the discussion.

I do not think that things will end without outside intervention. In particular, I do not believe that I should step aside and let pov on both sides triumph over[REDACTED] policies. And I feel very strongly that if these policies were followed it would result in a greater cohesion and consensus on the article.

So, I would want mediation over the use of policy to guide this page content. So far this has been ignored except to attempt to steamroll one side or the other. --Blue Tie (talk) 15:33, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Mediation works when two editors disagree about content and are willing to mediate. Here we have multiple parties, some of them clearly acting in bad faith, as evidenced by the sock puppetry that has occurred. This situation will either be resolved by the community, or if the behavioral problems continue, go to arbitration. One way or another the troublesome editors will either shape up, or be banned from editing this article. Jehochman 15:39, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the sockpuppet issue can be handled. Most editors are acting in good faith. I do not see a huge number of troublesome editors. But in specific reply, mediation is a method for the community to help resolve the issue. The problem that I suspect is more likely is not that there are troublesome editors in the sense of sockpuppets but rather that editors are not willing to assume good faith. In some cases they have pretty much said so. When there is no assumption of good faith, it presents a problem.

And my concerns about neutrality and using policy to help arrive at consensus still need to be addressed.--Blue Tie (talk) 15:44, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Arbitration might be premature but the obstinate refusal to let sourced material be used is troubling. Nomen Nescio 16:00, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Blue Tie, you said, "D. I (alone) am insisting that this is not a question[REDACTED] can decide and it must only report." You're not alone. Also, I agree that the RfC was poorly constructed. The "209" IP editor offered a far better proposal for the RfC but, as usual, he was steamrollered. Due to the constant steamrolling by the usual suspects in violation of policy, I agree that arbitration is appropriate. There is a related issue about the banning of Shibumi2 which can be addressed at the same time. My attempt to raise that question through community channels has not only been ignored, but deleted. Fast. I think this is inappropriate. Neutral Good (talk) 16:05, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I am not suggesting arbitration. I am looking at 1) informal mediation, 2) formal mediation with 3) Arbitration as a last resort.--Blue Tie (talk) 18:15, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Arbitration is unecessary, we have here are a handful of editors disrupting the consensus to prove a point, habitually misrepresenting policy, ignoring and refusing to accept obvious facts, claiming that reliable sources are simply 'wrong' because they don't agree with them, making straw man arguements and generally gaming the system to promote a personal point of view that is unverifiable and has little basis in fact. I think this kind of bad faith editing just needs to go on the ANI. --neonwhite user page talk 16:41, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

We do not need sockpuppetry and tendentious editing on these pages. The blocking of Shibumi2 for two weeks was entirely appropriate (even lenient) given his sockpuppetry. Those who wish to participate in these discussions must abide by a certain conduct conducive to collaborative writing. henrik•talk 17:02, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

My argument is that the evidence supporting the banning of Shibumi2 wasn't as solid as you may think. Lawrence Cohen claimed that the Sprint wireless IP address, shared by all three accounts that were banned, was uniquely assigned to a single wireless device - which would support a claim of sock puppetry or meatpuppetry. I wasn't even notified that the case was proceeding, even though I was one of the editors named in the case (for the second time in a week). After the case was concluded and the bans enforced, "Bob" demonstrated that Sprint wireless IP addresses are extremely dynamic and are assigned to cell phone base towers and shared by all users in the area, rather than being uniquely assigned to a single device. That undercuts the finding of sock puppetry. Shibumi2 might have been in the same county as the other two accounts but in a different city, rather than in the same body or the same room. But any mention of this new evidence is quickly deleted. Nobody wants to talk about it. And a good editor named Shibumi2, with an abundance of high-quality work to his credit, is being driven away from the Misplaced Pages project. Neutral Good (talk) 17:34, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Even if what you say is true - that entire counties are NATed through the same IP address, consider this: there are about eight editors consistently contributing to this talk page who are geographically dispersed around the world, including ones from non-native English speaking countries. What is the probability that several new editors, contributing only to this page, would all come from the same county in the U.S., and all be using Sprint wireless to access the internet? Vanishingly small, I would imagine.

Ah, you managed to pique my interest; would Sprint really do that? Wouldn't it interfere with instant messaging and UDP transport? So I googled.. first hit for "Sprint wireless nat" says: "Note that Sprint also gives you a (dynamic) public IP address, where the rest of the wireless phone connections I've tried have been NAT translated". So, no, it looks like a Sprint IP address is unique to a particular device at a particular time. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 18:51, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

"What is the probability that several new editors, contributing only to this page, would all come from the same county in the U.S., and all be using Sprint wireless to access the internet?" Pretty damn good, if a Penn State university professor assigned it as a class project. "Note that Sprint also gives you a (dynamic) public IP address ..." I don't see the word "unique" in there anywhere, Chris. Would you point it out for me please? A shared IP address doesn't necessarily involve NAT. You seem to be tech savvy enough to understand that. Thanks. Neutral Good (talk) 22:37, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Looking at the Sprint pdf, it appears that the address may be either fixed or dynamic, with fixed being an option not always available even if purchased. So depending on it for proof or disproof is probably not a good plan.

http://www.sprint.com/business/resources/ratesandterms/Mobile_Access_Product_Annex.pdf

htom (talk) 00:07, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

That's what I'm saying. The IP address is being taken as proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that Shibumi2 is an evil puppet master. And every time anyone tries to raise this question about these dynamic, shared Sprint IP addresses, the question gets deleted. Fast. What's going on? Neutral Good (talk) 00:43, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Proposal: Leaving the lead alone and developing the rest of the article

If we can get a consensus for following idea: To leave the lead alone for now and develop the rest of the article I'll unprotect it. Once the rest of the article is well developed (hopefully within a few weeks) we can revisit the issue of hammering out a lead that summarizes the article. This would mean leaving the lead as it is now, but allowing the editors to work on the rest of the article. Please add your name below. henrik•talk 17:02, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure my proposal was accurately relayed and this may sway votes.

My proposal did not say that the lead should remain the same... but that it should be drastically shortened (horribly shortened) and then ignored until we can flesh it out from a summary of the article. But, I feel even a brief place holder must be consistent with NPOV Policy. The current lead is not.

I would not even have a problem with a lead as short as: "Waterboarding is an Enhanced interrogation technique". Or "Waterboarding is an Enhanced interrogation technique often described as torture." These are inadequate because they do not fully cover the subject, but they do not violate NPOV policy. I like the first one best because it is the most empty and relies ENTIRELY on a second article, thus eliminating disputes here. I like the second one less because I think it will just be dispute war again -- but if everyone can agree on it, I think it is neutral. But I am open to any UNSATISFACTORILY SHORT Lead that is NEUTRAL. The more unsatisfactory as a summary, the better so we can me motivated to do a good job in the article and fix the lead later.

Incidentally on my talk page I am working on a re-write. Not so good yet, but all are encouraged to read and comment, especially after I finish. I find that I am shortening it alot but also that I feel some areas are not well enough cited YET. --Blue Tie (talk) 18:12, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

To clarify, this proposal would leave the lead unchanged (one should note that the lead will remain unchanged while the article is protected in any case). henrik•talk 20:12, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

henrik, you are wrong. Re-read what Blue Tie says just above: "My proposal did not say that the lead should remain the same... but that it should be drastically shortened (horribly shortened)." Badagnani (talk) 20:21, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I consider this now to be Henrik's proposal, not mine. --Blue Tie (talk) 20:24, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

It was my mistake in formulating the original text. I have clarified that this is a different proposal than Blue Tie's. This proposal is to keep the current lead and unlock the remaining article. You can think of it as a partial unprotection. I wanted to give credit to Blue Tie's original (and quite correct) thought that the article consists of more than the lead and that fixing it will be easier when the rest of the article is fully developed. henrik•talk 20:32, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate that view and will take that much credit. I would even be satisfied with leaving the current lead if there were some sort of tag or notice on the article stating that the lead is disputed but on hold. Because I do believe it will be easier to get a lead right if we work to get the article correct and then summarize the article -- meaning we do not even need references for the lead.--Blue Tie (talk) 20:38, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

If your proposal is different, you should have used a second-level heading rather than a third-level heading. Things have been confused so much at this point, the results of this poll cannot be valid and we would need to start over. Badagnani (talk) 20:53, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Agree

• Jehochman 17:04, 1 January 2008 (UTC) per Henrik's original proposal.
• User:Neon White Agree on principle with concerns that some editors may see unprotection as a green light to change the lead. --neonwhite user page talk 17:34, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I also agree, the lead should stay, and we should work on developing the article, particularly to present a balanced and proportional discussion of the minority "not torture" position, but I think we've gone beyond voting now: see the sockpuppeting discussion above, which makes it difficult to count votes in any sensible way. -- The Anome (talk) 19:02, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

• User:Blue Tie If the lead is to be shortened as described above.--Blue Tie (talk) 19:06, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
• The lead is fine now as it stands. ➪HiDrNick! 19:11, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually no, because it is disputed on a variety of points. I am hoping that we can get something very short (the shorter the better) that we can ignore and then go to the article. --Blue Tie (talk) 19:52, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

• Neutral Good. As clarified by Blue Tie above, I support this proposal. It includes an interim modification of the lead sentence to, "Waterboarding is an Enhanced interrogation technique". I can fully support this. Neutral Good (talk) 19:37, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
• Support only if the current NPOV lead that encompasses world history and discards POV pushing of fringe viewpoints that are filling the global concern and tone that Misplaced Pages requires. Reject anything including weasel terms such as Enhanced interrogation technique. There is no consensus for that in any way, if sockpuppetry is excluded. Lawrence Cohen 21:30, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
• Bob. Very short NPOV lead, then we can work on the article. 68.29.253.87 (talk) 23:23, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Disagree

• Neutral Good. We have a halfway decent proposal for a lead and the current one is a blatant NPOV violation. I believe we should accept Ka-Ping Yee's lead as an interim solution, then start working on the body of the article and see where that leads us. Neutral Good (talk) 17:49, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

There is nothing there is not neutral, stop misrepresenting this policy. --neonwhite user page talk 22:29, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

• User:Blue Tie if the lead is to be kept the same.--Blue Tie (talk) 19:06, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
• Lead should remain the same, but not according to Blue tie's criteria: which are as follows (as stated just above): "My proposal did not say that the lead should remain the same... but that it should be drastically shortened (horribly shortened)." I don't believe this proposal originally said this. All editors, please read Blue Tie's new text just above before giving your opinion. Further, the euphemistic neologism "enhanced interrogation technique" must not be substituted for "a form of torture" in the lead. Badagnani (talk) 19:42, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Badagnani is correct. For the record, this was my original proposal. Same basic idea. Short neutral insufficient lead and then ignore it. This may not have come through the way it has been presented. --Blue Tie (talk) 19:49, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

• User:Randy2063 -- I appreciate the thought but this amounts to kicking the can into an even dirtier yard. -- Randy2063 (talk) 20:56, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

New, fully clarified proposal

Blue Tie, half of us are a little confused and the other half are completely lost. Please start over. Right here, this spot here, is a perfect place to start. Compose your proposal carefully. Make it clear from the beginning. Short, strictly neutral lead to serve for interim purposes only.

Waterboarding is an Enhanced interrogation technique that consists of of restraining a person and pouring water over the mouth and nose to induce a fear of drowning. It is generally considered to be a form of torture.

Then we work on the body of the article. Then we compose a permanent lead that accurately reflects the body of the article. Is this what you have in mind? Neutral Good (talk) 21:33, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Euphemism don't belong here. They are not encyclopedic and distort articles. After September 11, a coterie of officials in the Bush administration sought to sanction highly aggressive measures under the euphemistic label "enhanced interrogation techniques." --neonwhite user page talk 22:31, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

If you continue pushing this fringe, US-centric, recentist argument that goes against the community discussion results, you could end up blocked for tendentious editing and disruption. Waterboarding covers a practice that has existed for 500 years, and is described by virtually all reliable sources as a form of torture. Repeating the same rejected arguments that waterboarding might not be torture, over and over again, is a form of disruption. It appears that you are carrying a political dispute onto Misplaced Pages. That must stop immediately. We are not here to take sides in political controversies. Our articles must reflect the plain meaning of what reliable sources say. Jehochman 21:40, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Support (and state your reasons)

• Support Yeah Blue Tie, that sounds like a great idea. It includes the word "generally" that Randy and Ping like. And it's even NPOV. I like it. Neutral Good (talk) 21:37, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Oppose (and state your reasons)

Misplaced Pages is not a democracy. This incessant poll taking is stonewalling and disruptive. I agree with Jehochman that it has gone on too long. --neonwhite user page talk 22:41, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

The basic fact is that according to NPOV policy Articles that compare views should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and may not include tiny-minority views at all. There has been nothing produced so far that categorizes the disputed meaning of this as anymore than a tiny-minority view. In my opinion it is lucky to be included in the article at all and likely is only there due to recentist and american bias. --neonwhite user page talk 22:46, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it would be silly to place the minority view first. Waterboarding has been used around the world for 500 years. Why do we entertain spinning the meaning to suit one puny US administration that is relatively insignificant compared to 500 years of world history?Jehochman 22:49, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

If a handful of politicians decide to start describing the thumbscrew using a euphemism for obvious political reasons, it wouldn't change the article, i fail to see why this should be treated any differently. --neonwhite user page talk 22:58, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Precisely. Using Misplaced Pages as a political tool for the current electoral process is grossly offensive, and needs to be stopped as the height of damage to NPOV. Lawrence Cohen 23:00, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Ummmm ... maybe because it's been the most powerful country in the world for the past 65 years? Neutral Good (talk) 22:53, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

And still only one footnote in history. Misplaced Pages is not designed to favor a view that is favorable to one nation's leadership, as that would also violate NPOV. The US view is no more important that any other view, as waterboarding is a world wide practice that predates the US's existence by 500 years. Lawrence Cohen 22:57, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually I have a reliable source that declares that previously "it" (water torture) was not considered any more out of the ordinary that a cross examination at court is today. So it may not have always been considered torture in times past. --Blue Tie (talk) 23:17, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

It's funny how our own torture article doesn't even mention waterboarding, if the belief that it is torture is so universal. Neutral Good (talk) 23:28, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

What are the views in other countries? I haven't seen any yet, except one French journalist from the 1950s. Has it occurred to you that of the 138 "sources" you cite in the RfC, nearly all of those are also American - including all 115 of the law professors you claim as 115 separate sources? And the US has existed for 231 years. Has waterboarding been practiced for 731 years? Neutral Good (talk) 23:06, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Spanish Inquisition

• Comment - I ask that editors consider these print sources, looking through all of them before commenting further. It is my opinion that the section of our article about the use of this technique during the Spanish Inquisition needs to be supplemented with information from these sources, most of them being specialist history texts about the period of the Spanish Inquisition. Badagnani (talk) 23:31, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree. In fact, the Spanish Inquisition part should not be here because it is not really waterboarding. It is more the Water Cure, which we already have an article on. This article is a different subject -- and the matters need to be differentiated. (they are actually different processes) The section on the Spanish Inquisition should go to the other article, where it belongs.

From what I can tell, waterboarding as we know it in this article is relatively recent -- a 19th or 20th century invention.--Blue Tie (talk) 23:47, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

• Comment - Disagree with the above comment by Blue Tie. The Spanish Inquisition version of waterboarding involved the use of either more or less water, as waterboarding does (the description of the form practiced in Algeria, according to Alleg, using an actual water faucet/tap as the water source). The description of the Inquisition version given in the authoritative print sources matches closely the description we are using in our article (strapped to board, head carefully lowered, cloth over or in mouth, water poured over the face to cause suffocation and possible ingestion or inhalation of water, repetition if necessary). It's clearly the same thing, with variations as with the performance of piano sonatas by different performers. Badagnani (talk) 23:49, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

It was a different process. It involved the forced INGESTION of the water, not the reduction of breathing space and the perception of drowning. Different mechanism. Different effects. But, most importantly we already have an article on this other form. Thus these two articles are differentiated. Evidence for the performance of the other method should not go here and evidence for the performance of waterboarding should not go there. --Blue Tie (talk) 23:52, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

• Comment - From this comment, it is fairly clear that you have not seriously considered each of the print sources, as requested editors to do just above. Thus, your comments are coming from a place of simply making things up regarding the Inquisition practice. Once you've actually looked through all the sources, please come back and comment. Badagnani (talk) 23:54, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Bogus. I am not required to go out and buy volumes of material on this. If you want to assert something you must validate it. If I want to assert something I must validate it. That is the requirement. I will not accept arbitrary assignments from other[REDACTED] editors, particularly when they amount to reading reviews of books and not the books themselves. --Blue Tie (talk) 23:59, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

• Comment - It is even more clear that you did not even glance at the sources, as if you had, you would realize that none of the sources in the link are reviews, and a majority gives the full text of the relevant pages. Before Google Books, one would actually have to go to the library and possibly also utilize interlibrary loan to obtain the relevant books, whereas the Google Books search I provided instantly gives full text to the relevant pages of these books. The fact that the Internet makes things so easy seems, with some individuals, to have the opposite effect of actually discouraging deeper inquiry into a subject. It now appears clear that some editors are only interested in sanitizing the lead by eliminating the word "torture," but quite interested in substantive improvment and enhancement of the other sections of the article, such as the Spanish Inquisition section. Each editor has his/her own perspective on what s/he wishes to edit. But the failure to consider print source material (as the above comment states quite clearly) isn't really acceptable when an editor is attempting to force a serious redefinition directly related to said sources. Badagnani (talk) 00:04, 2 January 2008 (UTC)\

For me, your link provided no text from the books at all. Sorry. But interestingly, I used to know one of the authors -- Kamen. Well, not "know". Acquainted with. --Blue Tie (talk) 00:09, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

• Comment - I apologize; I took for granted that all other editors were familiar with the Google Books search engine. As with the Google search engine, one must actually click on the individual blue links in order to see the text of the book in question. Badagnani (talk) 00:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Abstain -- and departing

I don't concede that the "not always torture" view is a minority one. Many of the "is torture" sources fall into the original research category. The leftist lawyers are valid sources but they're biased. As I've said in the other section, the other governments are silent. So, the sample size is limited.

Having been around for 500 years makes no difference. It's a logical error to say that simply because there was a form of waterboarding during the Spanish Inquisition, and because they tortured people during the Spanish Inquisition, that this means waterboarding is torture according to the contemporary definition of torture.

Regardless, the phrase "to suit one puny US administration" shows a political hostility that can't be overcome here. With that, I'm leaving this article for the rest of you.
-- Randy2063 (talk) 23:29, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

These several dozen print sources, most being historical texts written by specialists on the Spanish Inquisition period, describe waterboarding in great detail, describing it as one of the most notorious/worst/most cruel forms of torture (and the word "torture" is definitely used). The description of this torture matches the description we use in our article. Badagnani (talk) 23:34, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I have a specific, reliable source that indicates otherwise - NPR.--Blue Tie (talk) 23:42, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

NPR states that during the Inquisition period, waterboarding was considered a "normal" part of prison life. Extending this statement to mean that waterboarding was "not a form of torture" is a serious misreading of the source. This print source clearly states that "torture" was a normal part of prison life during the Spanish Inquisition. "Normal" does not equal "not a form of torture." If tortures become "normal" in the United States, as they were during the period of the Inquisition, they will not become "not torture," the way they were not "not torture" during the Inquisition period, though "normal" during that period. Badagnani (talk) 23:45, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I Think we might be reading different NPR articles then. --Blue Tie (talk) 23:53, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Contrary to your implication, the views of the current U.S. administration regarding waterboarding (once they choose to make them public) are certainly notable, and deserving of consideration in the article. What this administration does not get to do, however, is to redefine (euphemistically or otherwise) a well-understood practice. Badagnani (talk) 23:40, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

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