Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 17:51, 5 July 2005

Zillions of Games (the article)

Article is an advert. Zillions of Games has only 602 non-Misplaced Pages-mirror hits.

N.b. there has been a lot of Zillions-based spam (e.g. over 100 articles created) on wikipedia for the last 2 years, that was only recently discovered and VfD'd at Misplaced Pages:Votes for deletion/Zillions games. Consequently, there was time for there to be many different IPs used to create the articles, and the creator's edit pattern seems to be to use an IP/user-name for a while, then bin it and use another, creating a potential army of dorment sockpuppets.

As a result, some editors with over 200 edits, who have been here for more than just a few days, are potentially sock puppets of the Zillions-article creator. This complicates determining whose votes are permissible immensely, and a developer would probably need to check out each voter when the voting is closed. ~~~~ 3 July 2005 14:58 (UTC)

• Delete. ~~~~ 3 July 2005 14:58 (UTC)
• Delete, not notable. Dcarrano July 3, 2005 17:37 (UTC)
• Do we use the same search engine? Searching for ""zillions of games" -wikipedia -encyclopedia" gives me 63,900 hits . I heard from this game before I read the wikipedia article, and think it is quite notable, so keep. The spam by whoever is quite sad, tho. --Conti|✉ July 3, 2005 19:19 (UTC)
• Keep: This issue was discussed over 2 years ago on the the article's talk page. The number 602 non-Misplaced Pages-mirror hits comes from a 2 year old comment on the articles talk page. See the 08:40, 20 April 2003 article talk page; it reports "8,740 hits on google - though only 602 of those are non-duplicates". Currently there are ~67,000 Google references, but I do not know how many are non-mirrors. Wendell 3 July 2005 19:26 (UTC)
  • Karl Scherer's spamming of Misplaced Pages on the other (now deleted) articles started some 2 years ago, that probably has quite a lot to do with the increase in google hits. ~~~~ 3 July 2005 22:02 (UTC)
• Keep. There may has been Zillions-based spam, but that shouldn't mean that this article is automatically removed. It seems a noteworthy enough computer program, and not particularly advertising. Perhaps some rewriting is due, but otherwise I see no reason to delete the article. UkPaolo 3 July 2005 19:37 (UTC)
  • If it is noteworthy, then why can I find zero negative references to it on google? The internet is a very critical place, so out of the things that arent just an advert, you would expect a sizable number of negative criticisms, but there appear to be none. This implies it is all just advertising, i.e. not noteworthy. ~~~~ 3 July 2005 22:02 (UTC)
    • Perhaps you didn't look hard enough. See for a negative review and for some negative comments about the ZRF scripting language used by Zillions. PittBill 3 July 2005 23:08 (UTC)
      • Heck, for that matter, look at the user forums on the Zillions of Games site. *wry grin* Those of us who are enthusiasts of the engine routinely run into its limits. Once I'm home, I'll try to dig up some of the webpages from game programmers on limitations they've run into. -Fuzzy 5 July 2005 12:54 (UTC)

Hmm... i take your point. I've just seen all the other things by this guy up for deletion, and I totally appreciate spam and advertising has been a big problem with this. I still do wonder, however, why the program should deserve no representation on here at all. I fully agree removing countless links in other articles, and rewriting this to ensure an NPOV, but I still just feel that it's notable enough to be represented. However annoying the spam has been. Interesting point you make re the google results however, i'll look into them a bit more. UkPaolo 3 July 2005 22:25 (UTC)

Hmm... well there are some reviews of the software out there so it's not just advertising. Still seems a noteworthy enough program to me. UkPaolo 3 July 2005 22:28 (UTC)

• Keep. Misplaced Pages policy must be consistent. I see noone moving to delete the entry for Microsoft. By the way, I am NOT the vandal. --BadSanta

The behavior of one anonymous zealot is regrettable. Nonetheless, as Dr. Karl Scherer once argued at length and in explicit detail, this article is not a damned ad. Zillions Of Games is the only fully-universal, user-friendly program for creating and playing chess variants of any architecture. In other words, the ZOG program is as indispensible to board game inventors as Microsoft Windows is to most IBM-compatible computer owners (and I sure as Hell do not wish to advertise for Microsoft). By the way, my name is Melvin Rippey. It would be nice to get some input from some Misplaced Pages editors who are not clueless as to what they are talking about yet strangely vocal to the point of trying to get this important page deleted. --BadSanta

User has edits only to Chess variant games, and has not edited for a while (since 13th june) until the VfD on Karl Scherer's articles stopped being edited (2 days ago) ~~~~ 3 July 2005 16:31 (UTC)

I'm not sure that BadSanta's edit history is relevant to this discussion. The fact that a user votes in a VfD discussion that relates to his or her area of interest is hardly suspicious, and the fact that one of this user's absences from Misplaced Pages coincided with VfD discussions related to another user's contributions is only circumstantial grounds for suspicion. NatusRoma 3 July 2005 18:58 (UTC)

The issue is that Karl Scherer's edit pattern (see the IPs) is to use them for a reasonable period, then move on, and occasionally resurrect them. This was over a period of 2 years. This suggests he is capable, and may be likely, to have set up sockpuppets which now appear to be established, though do not make frequent edits, and can then be used to sway a VfD by appearing to be different editors. Consequently, the only way to see if someone may need to be checked out by a developer for sockpuppetry is by flagging up an edit pattern conforming to what would be expected of Karl Scherer. Obviously this could, and is likely to, catch innocent editors, which is extremely unfortunate, and I would have preferred not to need to do this, but developers should soon be able to determine the guilt or innocence of each, when it comes to tally up the vote. ~~~~ 3 July 2005 22:02 (UTC)

• • You are not really allowed to vote twice. Would you like me to move your previous comment down here to make it clear you are only voting the once?~~~~ 3 July 2005 22:02 (UTC)
    • I did not vote twice or attempt to. I don't care where you move my comment or if you move it. --BadSanta
      • Now dealt with. ~~~~ 4 July 2005 18:06 (UTC)
• Keep. Zillions of Games is a must have for any chess variant and abstract board game entusiast, just see how many chess variants are implemented for Zillions engine! Andreas Kaufmann 3 July 2005 21:25 (UTC)

User has only edits to Chess-varient related articles, and Fox and geese which I put up for deletion as something that appears to be written by Karl Scherer, despite being created by Andreas, who claims to be a seperate individual. ~~~~ 3 July 2005 22:02 (UTC)

FYI- Andreas Kaufmann is a seperate individual! Nearly everyone in the chess variant community knows who he is. He made the WinBoard adapter for Zillions Of Games without any financial compensation. Are you going to insult everyone? --BadSanta

So, what you are saying is, Andreas Kaufmann is a significant part of Zillions of Games, just like Karl Scherer, i.e. highly biased, and just as likely as Karl Scherer to have created the article as spam advertising ? ~~~~ 4 July 2005 18:04 (UTC)

No, I am saying the opposite. Andreas Kaufmann is not affiliated with Zillions Development in any way. He made the WinBoard adapter without any financial compensation to benefit the chess variant community, not for a corporation. By the way, Dr. Karl Scherer does not work for Zillions Development, either. He is simply the most prolific board game inventor in the world. --BadSanta

Now, I am very curious why you would title Mr. Scherer as most prolific when it isn't backed up with evidence, given that you have no personal connection to him. ~~~~ 4 July 2005 20:21 (UTC)

The Zillions web site currently lists Dr. Karl Scherer, a published mathematician, as having invented 396 board games- several times more than whoever takes second place (strictly by numerical measure). This is a verifiable fact. You do know what "prolific" means, I presume? --BadSanta

Prolific means prolific not noteworthy. I have written prolific VfDs (I have had over 100 articles deleted via VfD over the last fortnight), but that does not make me noteworthy enough for an article. ~~~~ 5 July 2005 08:29 (UTC)

Neither Andreas Kaufmann nor Karl Scherer 'created' the Zillions article. According to the page history, a user named Chuck Smith wrote the first version in 2002.PittBill 4 July 2005 19:03 (UTC)

• Keep. -Sean Curtin July 4, 2005 17:49 (UTC)

• Keep. I don't think zillions of games need any additional advertisement. It is a major addition to the wealth of human civilization and culture. That's what encyclopedias should be all about -- diversity. And those silly allegations about the guy using fake profiles, that sounds like slander motivated by jealousy. If you had an interesting life of your own, you wouldn't be poking your nose into everyone's business.
• Strong delete with extreme prejudice. The sockpuppetry alone is enough to reach this conclusion. — Phil Welch 5 July 2005 04:26 (UTC)

I gather that a few conscientious editors have been thru Hell over the sockpuppetry. The temptation to get angry and nuke the problem is to some extent, understandable. However, we have a responsibility as editors to not let the unethical behavior of one individual provoke us into spitefully flushing down the toilet relevant material of interest to many. The bottom line is it is difficult to discuss chess variants without mentioning the Zillions program in the modern era. So, it belongs, notwithstanding. --BadSanta

The issue is, is it noteworthy to more than just people who work for Zillions in some manner, and their sockpuppets, i.e. is it more than just fancruft? Given the state of google on the matter 2 years ago before this spamming started - only 602 non-mirror hits, many being message board edits by karl scherer + company themselves - I would say that it is fancruft, and not noteworthy. ~~~~ 5 July 2005 08:29 (UTC)

Chess variants are variants of chess, which require only a board and chess pieces, and someone who knows the rules. I don't see where Zillions is a necessity there. ~~~~ 5 July 2005 08:29 (UTC)

• Keep. My name is David Bush. I am not, nor ever have been, a sockpuppet. Perhaps my home page (such as it is) would provide sufficient evidence about this. Zillions has great value to me as a tool for analyzing lots of abstract games, not just chess variants. It helps me get a handle on basic tactics, which form the basis for deeper understanding. There are probably hundreds of ZoG script writers who have added to the ever increasing body of work. It costs money to "join the club," but once you have the software, all third-party packages are freely downloadable. I have been a playtester for ZoG, which means I got an upgrade for free. I received no money. I don't know Jack about IT issues, sock puppets and the like. But I am very upset about the flame war that has grown up here. Insults don't help. They really don't. Ignoring the guidelines for posting on Misplaced Pages doesn't help. It really doesn't. Those who manage this site have a valid concern that future additions to the ZoG page should observe the rules which are clearly listed for anyone who takes the time to read them. Is it worth their time to continually correct violations, just to keep a page which apparently is read by relatively few people? Can we all get along? Everything you might want to tell the world about ZoG can be done within the posting guidelines. If you are not certain your edit is correct, Misplaced Pages has a "preview" option as well as a "sand box."

--Twixter 5 July 2005 11:44 (UTC)

User has 18 prior edits. ~~~~ 5 July 2005 17:51 (UTC)