Misplaced Pages

Talk:Duchy of Pless: Difference between revisions

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
Browse history interactively← Previous editNext edit →Content deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 14:56, 10 January 2008 editMolobo (talk | contribs)13,968 editsNo edit summary← Previous edit Revision as of 23:22, 10 January 2008 edit undoPiotrus (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Event coordinators, Extended confirmed users, File movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers286,053 edits →Now germanizedNext edit →
(3 intermediate revisions by 2 users not shown)
Line 70: Line 70:
*The most natural reading is that Pless became a German-speaking town and district, just like, say, ]. This does not appear to be true; we should not mislead the reader, if we ever have one. *The most natural reading is that Pless became a German-speaking town and district, just like, say, ]. This does not appear to be true; we should not mislead the reader, if we ever have one.
*I gather it is intended to mean that the ''name'' Pless, or rather ''Pleß'', came into use around 1740. I don't see any evidence of this, and I think it unlikely; Pless had been under Habsburg suzerainity for two centuries. ] <small>]</small> 22:47, 9 January 2008 (UTC) *I gather it is intended to mean that the ''name'' Pless, or rather ''Pleß'', came into use around 1740. I don't see any evidence of this, and I think it unlikely; Pless had been under Habsburg suzerainity for two centuries. ] <small>]</small> 22:47, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

:First point doesn't contradict Germanisation-it doesn't have to be done by force.
:Second point doesn't contradict the fact that originally this wasn't a German town with a German name so change to German population and name is germanisation.--] (]) 14:56, 10 January 2008 (UTC) :Second point doesn't contradict the fact that originally this wasn't a German town with a German name so change to German population and name is germanisation.--] (]) 14:56, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
::It had a name in Polish (and I presume Poles still used it even in the nineteenth century); it had a name in German, which is likely to go back far beyond the Renaissance. It became noted in English when it was ruled by the von Hochbergs, as part of Prussia. They spoke German, although partly of Polish descent (which is their claim to the duchy); German was also the administrative language of Prussia. Therefore the English adopted a variant of the German name. No, that is not ]; it's not what the word means. ] <small>]</small> 19:29, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

The town remained Polish despite heavy Germanisation efforts-even in 1829 according to German sources the po Polish
population was 94,3 %--] (]) 14:58, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
:Precisely; it was ''not'' Germanized, and saying it was is inaccurate. ] <small>]</small> 19:31, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
::The name, however, was.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 23:22, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Revision as of 23:22, 10 January 2008

WikiProject iconPoland Stub‑class Low‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Poland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Poland on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PolandWikipedia:WikiProject PolandTemplate:WikiProject PolandPoland
StubThis article has been rated as Stub-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was move. The argument for using the English-language name is clear. The arguments from the opposers are not clear to me. DrKiernan (talk) 15:43, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

Duchy of Pszczyna → Duchy of Pless — Pless shows up more often than Pszczyna among literature written in the English language regarding its existence as a duchy and as a title. —Charles 18:30, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Misplaced Pages's naming conventions.

Is there any evidence for the assertions given in the move request? Knepflerle (talk) 18:38, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

No, but there is evidence for rejection of the move: in Google Print, "Duchy of Pszczyna" vs "Duchy of Pless" wins 1:0 :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 21:32, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, Piotrus. The English summary of Zarys dziejów kartografii śląskiej do końca XVIII wieku (Warsaw, 1976), which is what your one hit is, is perhaps the weakest testimony to the usage of actual anglophones that I have ever seen.;-> Who is the translator? Could he actually speak English? Had he done so in the previous thirty years? And as for 1-0 meaning anything, see WP:NCGN#False positives. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:30, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

Although I disagree with either, I wonder: why Pless, not de:Pleß? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 12:06, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

For my part, because Pless is what we normally use in English, as Daisy attests. I would oppose Pleß as artificial nationalism. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:15, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Please do remember, especially the two editors inclined to use such language as mess, that Eastern Europe is under a general sanction. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:18, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Changes

Since it has been established that Pless is used in English, I have changed the article to use that form throughout and also maintained Pszczyna as an alternative at the top. The name reflects what the lands were called in English when the duchy existed. Charles 16:00, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't see the reason for removal of the alternative name of Duchy of Pszczyna. Also, Pszczyna should be called Pszczyna, not Pless. PS. The Germanization reference is added to explain the shift in naming from Pless to Pszczyna. PSS. See also Talk:Gdansk/Vote.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 16:28, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
This is contrary to WP:NCGN. Nineteenth century Pszczyna was then, and is now retrospectively, called Pless in English. Please note also that it does not appear to ever have been called Pless in German - the German is Pleß; assertions to the contrary are errors of fact. I remove "now Germanized" as particularly misleading; it appears to have been among the least Germanized areas in Silesia. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:40, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
The alternative name is still there at the top. There is no evidence provided for why Pless should apparently be called Pszczyna. There is also no source given that a "shift" even exists for Pless/Pszczyna in English usage with reference to its history as a duchy. Also, what is with this Gdansk vote? Don't quote something without explaining how it applies. Really, how does it apply here? Also, for clarity, can we leave spaces between the replies? The replies are running into one another and it gets confusing between that and edit conflicts. Thank you. Charles 16:44, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
  • The Gdanzig vote was before WP:NCGN, and inspired its formation; but it itself has no force of precedent (that was part of the agreement, IIRC), and in some ways defies present consensus.
Article is now under German (or English, ehm) name, so I see no problem with having Polish variant of name there. Also content disputes are different from name disputes. There is no controversy in Germanization statement, it explains the evolution of the name of that entity, although I agree it should be explained more precisely. I don't think Piotrus wants to move article back or something like that. - Darwinek (talk) 16:45, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
There is no problem having the Polish variant listed, it's in the very first line after all. There is also controversy in the "Germanization" statement, since really, the name was not Germanized, it was Anglicized to a form which was similar to the German form. That's it. Really a note on Polonization would be more appropriate (but still not appropriate), since going from Pless to Pszczyna is exactly that. Charles 16:48, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Pless can be used for 19th century Duchy, sure - but for its origins under Silesian Piasts before 14th century Pszczyna is the correct one.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:05, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
How so? Why is that allegedly the correct name? Charles 17:07, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Simply due to Talk:Gdansk/Vote. In the context of creation of creation of the Duchy in 12th century the name Pszczyna, not Pless, should be used. The Duchy may be more often known as Pless, but its capital is Pszczyna, not Pless.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:18, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Would you please point to the passage of the vote that states that? Also, it has been determined that the duchy is called Pless. Why, at the same time, would its capital be called Pszczyna? Charles 17:35, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
We are not discussing 'Duchy of...'. That discussion has ended in the preceeding section. We are discussing the naming of the town, which is pretty simple.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:19, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Now germanized

In the War of the Austrian Succession most of Silesia (including (including now Germanized Pless) was conquered by Prussia;

I have removed the three marked words for two reasons, besides the duplication:

  • The most natural reading is that Pless became a German-speaking town and district, just like, say, Leipzig. This does not appear to be true; we should not mislead the reader, if we ever have one.
  • I gather it is intended to mean that the name Pless, or rather Pleß, came into use around 1740. I don't see any evidence of this, and I think it unlikely; Pless had been under Habsburg suzerainity for two centuries. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:47, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Second point doesn't contradict the fact that originally this wasn't a German town with a German name so change to German population and name is germanisation.--Molobo (talk) 14:56, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
It had a name in Polish (and I presume Poles still used it even in the nineteenth century); it had a name in German, which is likely to go back far beyond the Renaissance. It became noted in English when it was ruled by the von Hochbergs, as part of Prussia. They spoke German, although partly of Polish descent (which is their claim to the duchy); German was also the administrative language of Prussia. Therefore the English adopted a variant of the German name. No, that is not Germanization; it's not what the word means. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:29, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

The town remained Polish despite heavy Germanisation efforts-even in 1829 according to German sources the po Polish population was 94,3 %--Molobo (talk) 14:58, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Precisely; it was not Germanized, and saying it was is inaccurate. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:31, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
The name, however, was.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 23:22, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Categories: