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Revision as of 19:49, 12 January 2008

User:MQDuck/userboxes/Right To Resist

This userbox has been deleted and restored 4 times in the last few days.

Delete This userbox is supporting Iraqi insurgency, on the other hand supporting Terrorism. Such userboxes cannot be teolerated. Yes it is true that the Iraq war is controversial, invasion of Iraq is controversial. Incidents like Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse can never be tolerated. On the other hand it is also true that Saddam Hussein's rule is not absolutely right. Iraqi resistance means what? Resistance against whom? Who occupied Iraq? I am never telling that the Americans are "good guy". But it is also need to be mentioned that pro-Saddam activists are also not "good guy". This userbox should be deleted. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 09:56, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

• Speedy delete - On a more basic level, this userbox is divisive, inflammatory, (intentionally?) controversial, and doesn't aid in encyclopedic collaboration. Probably qualifies for speedy delete under WP:CSD#T1. Equazcion •✗/C • 09:59, 12 Jan 2008 (UTC)
• Delete - I have already speedied this, but the DRV people thought that my action was more disruptive that the trollbox, and restored it. I disagree with the nominee - Misplaced Pages should not be in the basis of defining terrorism (which is POV). Judging between evil Saddam Hussein and evil illegal wars is, thankfully, a matter for the UN and not us. But the very fact that this box raises that divisive debate is grounds for deletion. Sure, it willbe argued that WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS but that's not a reason to keep this trollbox.----Doc 10:49, 12 January 2008 (UTC) Replaced with comment below.--Doc 15:11, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
• Comment Speedy deletion overturned, this discussion was started as the result of a DRV decision and is therefore not subject to speedy deletion. WP:CSD is not a tool to forestall discussion over a controversial topic. ~ trialsanderrors (talk) 13:49, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Further comment - I first noticed this userbox whilst patrolling CAT:CSD today, and it had transcluded the all the userpages it was on, into the category. I immediately deleted it, thinking it would remove these. I then decided to restore pending the result of this, but then another delete came in and to be honest, the userbox did look quite divisive. I was told "You should probably close the MfD with a good reason to ensure there's no good reason to restore this again" - keeping in mind that I deleted it under the CSD T1 criterion. (But forgot to add this to the deletion summary) Rudget. 13:59, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
    • T1 expressly only applies to Template space. G10 is narrowly tailored to only apply to direct personal attacks, and not to confrontational political views. Both arguments for speedy deletion have been refuted in the original DRV discussion. This also holds for the other two userboxes you deleted. ~ trialsanderrors (talk) 14:03, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
      • I haven't deleted any other userboxes. Rudget. 14:06, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
        • Sorry, I misinterpreted a talk page discussion. |Link to original DRV. ~ trialsanderrors (talk) 14:14, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
          • Ah, I see. I was unaware of the previous DRV. Apologies. Rudget. 14:19, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
• Comment (firstly, can plain editors comment?) As an editor, I find it a violation of WP:AGF for admins to delete userboxes without due process, and to assume that editors do not adhere to AGF themselves in the articles they participate in editing in. I also think the userboxes add transparency to the process by allowing other editors to know the opinions and potential intents (lord knows we have them) of others, instead of running circles around ourselves. That said, I will break AGF for a moment and point out that the only drama I've come across from these particularly political userboxes (right to resist, Tibetan independence (which has disappeared; can't find discussion at RFD or MFD), et al) have been from admins requesting deletion without much discourse. If this continues to be a problem, I will request mediation. Xavexgoem (talk) 14:12, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
  • I'm not sure of the idea regarding RFM just yet, lets try and discuss consensus here first. Rudget. 14:21, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
    • I was going to add "maybe not" ;) I don't want the arguments presented in the discussion ABOUT the discussion to be conflated with the arguments about the userbox, which I may be aiding in. I apologize. Xavexgoem (talk) 14:25, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
      • I've probably inflated this, and I most probably didn't assume good faith. If anyone is going to apologise, please let it be me. Rudget. 14:28, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
        • Nah, I'm taking this far too seriously for what's really just a vanity item ;) Xavexgoem (talk) 15:35, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Comment with wikilove: I've been known to delete these things - but to be honest, this will probably not be deleted as that's not where consensus lies. The battle for deletion is no-longer one worth fighting. However, I'd just plead with the creator and any others who use such things to stop and think. It may be that it is good to let people know your editing interests, however would it not be less dramatic simply to type "I am interested in editing articles on the Iraq war" - no fuss, no contention - just a mature, informative, declaration. We are here to build a neutral encyclopedia - so let's try to be nice and neutral. Now, some will say that it "is good to declare your biases - that actually helps neutrality" - fair enough. But would it not be better to do so in a way that works towards neutrality, and convinces people that neutral writing is your goal - rather than using proud colourful boxes. What about typing "I have a strong anti-Bush point of view, please let me know if my politics gets in the way of me being a neutral editor"? That declares your biases, but strongly suggests a mature self-reflection, and a desire to work to neutrality, rather than to ensure one POV is reflects.

Now, to those who want to use these boxes, if you want to push policy, it is probably the case that deleting these things is without support and you are within your "rights" to keep them. Consider though that what you "can" do, and what you "should" do, if you are serious about creating a neutral encyclopedia, may not coincide. Could it be better to do things differently?

To those admins who think these things are unwikipedian, and detrimental to the neutrality of our content, then consider this suggestion from a repentant userbox deletionist. Rather then using deletion, or slogging it out on MfD, why not try to change the culture to one where these things are not encouraged and are seen as reflecting the wrong attitude to wikipedia? Use your influence to persuade users to do things differently - and let it be known that when assessing a user's suitability for trusted positions in the community, their commitment to neutrality and collegial editing as demonstrated (in part) by their use of userspace will be a large consideration for you - even to the level of opposing people on RfA for having the wrong attitude. I suspect that will have far more impact, and influence with the community, with far less drama.--Doc 14:24, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

• I agree it could be done better. Although I like userboxes, as do many many others. It would have to be a matter of policy for politically-or-otherwise-sensitive userboxes to be removed. I don't think this will happen, and I don't think it should happen, which is not for me to decide. However, because policy on userboxes probably will not be forthcoming, I see no point in deleting them, since any userbox can take any amount of umbrage from anyone. Examples: (and I DO wear these things on my sleeve): I have a userbox saying I support the right for Iraqi's to resist the occupation, which many people will disagree with; I have a userbox saying I'm gay, which potentially hurts others opinion of me; interest in Islamic civilizations, which potentially hurts my standing in any article that concerns 1/5 of humanity that another 1/5 may very well despise (hyperbole)... which brings me to a problem: For every userbox espousing one view with a tacit implication, there is an opposite userbox that may or may not be acceptable (e.g., support-the-troops, support-the-iraqi's (acceptable, imo); interested-in-such-and-such, despise-such-and-such (unacceptable, imo)). (addendum: furthermore, the first set of examples are not mutually exclusive, and the latter are)

(I broke that sentence terribly, I apologize)...At any rate, I don't see any point in deleting userboxes when A) policy may not be forthcoming, and B) a better culture may not be forthcoming. It seems logical to me that you have the choice of which "evil" you want to put in your user space, whether it be userboxes with unspoken implications, or paragraph-length explanations with still unspoken implications. Xavexgoem (talk) 14:39, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

• Well, I'm mentioned specifically so I suppose I should answer. I understand the argument that declaring positions on controversial issues on your userpage might be divisive and/or disruptive. But this is what happened: I looked at Misplaced Pages's political userbox list and saw that it had boxes for the "acceptable" positions on Iraq and only them, and was dismayed that Misplaced Pages was (in some small way) helping to box people's range of positions to take in. I wasn't about to make it my mission to tear down political userboxes, so instead I gave the universe (well, the political userbox page) some balance. --MQDuck (talk) 15:22, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Just remember that it's not the case that only acceptable opinions are allowed as userboxes, just that the other options hadn't been created yet, which you'd done :) Xavexgoem (talk) 15:34, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

• Keep I don't believe the old consensus for forbidding all political speech in User space is still in effect, regardless of whether or not the speech is in a rectangle or other geometric shape. Doc's suggestion amounts to saying there needs to be either a political litmus test or a unspoken policy of don't ask, don't tell for editors with certain beliefs who want to be Admin's some day. To my mind that goes against the grain of one of our core principles: wikipedia is an encyclopedia anyone can edit. -- Kendrick7 15:32, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment But this is not political speech, this is terrorism. Supporting Iraqi insurgency is similar to supporting 9/11 attack. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 15:37, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
    • That's nice rhetoric, and I'm more or less a pacifist myself, but I'm not going to insist on a don't-ask-don't-tell policy for all users who don't share my POV. -- Kendrick7 15:48, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Comment - The issue here is basically one of political incorrectness. There's only so much of that that usually gets tolerated on Misplaced Pages, for better or worse. Saying something like "I support the US troops in Iraq" is entirely politically correct, whereas "I support the Iraqi insurgency" is extremely politically incorrect. This is despite the fact that they are both basically saying the same thing, only regarding different sides of the argument. Now I could make a political argument here and say that I don't see how you can possibly compare the two sides, when the purpose of one is to kill people and the other is the opposite, but we probably shouldn't get into that. Unfortunately the people who "run" Misplaced Pages can sometimes forget that Misplaced Pages is really not meant to be an American institution, and that we need to be politically sensitive to cultures that hold conflicting opinions -- namely the fact that saying "I support the troops in Iraq" could make certain people feel just as uncomfortable as "us" when "we" see someone saying "I support the Iraqi insurgency".

Therefore, this should probably be a choice between keeping both types userboxes or deleting both. And I think we should delete both. I don't think Misplaced Pages should seek to settle these debates and I also don't think anyone should feel uncomfortable here. If that means sacrificing userboxes which have no real use to the encyclopedia anyway, I think that's a small price to pay. Equazcion •✗/C • 15:40, 12 Jan 2008 (UTC)

• Remove boxES as per Otolemur's massively disappointing comment above. But then, I think that users should still have the option of div'ing up a userbox if they wish (which is a compromise, imho, and localises any upsets) Xavexgoem (talk) 15:45, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
  • What are you supporting? Are you referring to my comment? Equazcion •✗/C • 15:47, 12 Jan 2008 (UTC)
    • Yes. Xavexgoem (talk) 15:49, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
      • Ah okay, thanks for the clarification. Unfortunately though, placing the raw code of a deleted template on a page is against policy, if I remember correctly... perhaps someone else knows for sure but I believe this has been decided in the past. Equazcion •✗/C • 15:51, 12 Jan 2008 (UTC)
        • To clarify, Ot's comment has proved to me that these boxes will always put someone on the defensive, and could go downhill from here or anywhere really quickly. I think in this case, deleting the iraqi userbox while keeping the american one (so-to-speak) is undue balance in support of a status-quo. See? It's personal, and since Ot's comment (which is massively offensive), I've had enough of it. Xavexgoem (talk) 15:56, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
        • To apologize for my unseemly behaviour: I apologize. Last word: WP:UNDUE. *sigh* sorry. Xavexgoem (talk) 16:00, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
• Political correctness is in the eye of the beholder. This is not the United States Misplaced Pages, but the English language Misplaced Pages. Based on English, only about 1/4 of the English speakers (and only 2/3 of even the native English speakers) live in the US. I have little doubt whether the majority of English speakers think "supporting the US troops" is an acceptable position, though I do have some doubt whether they would think "Supporting the right to resist the Occupation" is really acceptable either. OLemur's comment at the top is a little confusing: he complains about the ambiguity of the template: if that is the only problem, he would presumably prefer "I support the right of Iraqis to resist the American Occupation" Personally, how about I support the right of all peoples to resist the occupation of their country by a foreign power who is going to disagree with that one? (Except for complete pacifists--not that I have anything against them). If we eliminate political userboxes, how far are we going to go -- how about , "This usser supports the G. W. Bush" , or even "This user supports the Republican party" or the various US presidential candidates? or even supports the United States? or supports the United Nations? DGG (talk) 16:31, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Care to my comment at the top. Necessity of resistance comes when a country is occupied. But Iraq is not occupied. Who occupied Iraq? So what is the necessity of "resistance"? Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 16:38, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

This is not a discussion of the factual accuracy of the userbox, or Iraq. However, it's troublesome not knowing whether it's up there to be polemical or just expressing an opinion, perhaps for the benefit of other editors. You can think what you will, and that may or may not be part of the point. Xavexgoem (talk) 16:51, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

• (to DGG) Not that this necessarily needs to be decided here, but I wouldn't see anything wrong with disallowing political userboxes altogether. What's the priority here? Allowing Wikipedians the freedom to express their political opinions in their userpages, or making everyone feel comfortable in the pursuit of the actual goal, writing an encyclopedia? However I do see your point -- that event most non-US English speakers probably would not consider it acceptable to support the Iraqi insurgency. Equazcion •✗/C • 16:38, 12 Jan 2008 (UTC)

• I don't think having a policy that essentially smiles upon intolerance and bigotry furthers the goal of writing an encyclopedia. We aren't worker ants or bots, but a bunch of different human beings, and either we give users a page to say who they are or we don't. In the spirit of First they came... and as DGG said, where does it end? -- Kendrick7 16:57, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

• I'm not sure I understand. What policy would that be? Are you suggesting that the elimination of all political userboxes somehow constitutes bigotry? Equazcion •✗/C • 17:02, 12 Jan 2008 (UTC)

• The policy seems to be one of "don't ask, don't tell" but I'm not sure if it's written down anywhere. Forbidding editors to express any political views would be far beyond bigotry, but I'm not sure what the word would be. Whether permission to do so depends on whether it is in userspace or written inside a rectangle is just WP:BURO-cracy window dressing, IMHO. -- Kendrick7 17:10, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

• Well there is a small difference, in that a transcludable box exists outside one person's userspace, so it's now not just his opinion but rather something Misplaced Pages "condones". The word you might be looking for is suppression (of ideas)... It's not bigotry but it could still be bad, though I'd make the argument that it's really not, because there are other places where people can express their views, and an encyclopedia doesn't necessarily need to be one of them. Elimination of that which doesn't help the goals of this particular website isn't suppression, it's just focus. Equazcion •✗/C • 17:18, 12 Jan 2008 (UTC)

• This does have a lot of potential to spiral out of control. Do we have people policing others' user-spaces? I'm revoking my vote (if it means anything - do I have to be an admin?) and just saying keep. It's less effort, there will be a lot of complaining (this userbox has had more drama on this page alone than anywhere else, I think, and who wants to repeat it?), particularly as I think losing this particular userbox while keeping their "opposites" (context, context, context; we'll never know why people put up what they do) is undue weight, but removing their "opposites" will be worse and it'll spill out all over the place once people say A) why did you only delete this particular matter and B) why aren't you deleting the others? Xavexgoem (talk) 17:24, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
• (ec) I believe it furthers the goal of writing a collaborative encyclopedia for us each to know something about each other, and it just doesn't seem like enforced ignorance is helpful. Maybe the word I want is "dehumanization." By your argument, we could get rid of all usernames and just assign us all numbers too; usernames hardly further our goals, right? As to the tired trope: we all know the existence of a userbox doesn't mean wikipedia "condones" that POV; even you felt the need to put the word in quotes. -- Kendrick7 17:34, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

• Keep: If political userboxes are allowed, which the large selection currently available demonstrates, then this should be too. It's far better to have a succinct userbox expressing a user's belief rather than a page full of soapboxing rhetoric saying the same thing. --WebHamster 16:55, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm adding the userbox to the page, for anyone's benefit:

{{User:MQDuck/userboxes/Right_To_Resist}}

We could have discussions between the differences of "supporting" and "recognizing" ;) (also: edit this to align better if you want)Xavexgoem (talk) 16:56, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I just wonder how everyone is supporting this userbox in the name of political userbox. This userbox is supporting terrorism. What is going on in Iraq in the name of "resistance" is terrorism which cannot be supported. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 17:00, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Quit, please, with the polemics. Xavexgoem (talk) 17:05, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

There is nothing polemics. I am giving the reason why this userbox cannot be supported. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 17:07, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Perhaps you should look up the definition of "polemic" before denying its usage. "Terrorism" is a relative term, ie it is POV and therefore has no place here. --WebHamster 17:19, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is the encyclopedia anyone can edit. This may include people you view as terrorists, or their supporters. -- Kendrick7 17:16, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

• Speedy delete per WP:CSD#T1 or otherwise nuke from orbit. We already allow for much leeway in userspace. After all, they don't further the project at all. The line of how much do we allow is pretty much drawn in sand, but what I can tell is that promoting war and killing is waaaaay over that line. Миша13 19:01, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

• If you oppose self determination for Iraqis, that's fine, but I don't believe you can arbitrarily silence those who have the opposite POV. -- Kendrick7 19:10, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Guess what? I actually support Iraqis self determination. But: 1) who cares about my political views? and 2) I hold in contempt those who support killing people in the process. Миша13 19:27, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

• OMG Speedy Keep I personally believe in what he is saying and besides, EVERYONE HAS A RIGHT TO THEIR OPINION! Isn't that the first amendment right, even for those who call this the American English Misplaced Pages. This user is not suporting terrorism, this is supporting Iraqi freedom from George W. Bush. Even if I created a userbox which said I supported terrorism, sure you could throw me in jail but EVERYONE HAS A RIGHT TO THEIR OPINION! George W. Bush is almost a dictator, with it being incredibly hard for anyone to get him to stop this schizophrenic-ego-disorder-war-machiene-thingy. Iraqis should rebel against the US led invasion of their country! In fact, I'm adding this to my userpage. Editorofthewiki (talk) 19:15, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Please assume good faith. We can understand your opinion even without capitals. Rudget. 19:18, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

(e/c) Sorry, but I'm afraid first amendment doesn't work on privately owned websites. Second, nobody actually cares about your opinion here - we're building an encyclopedia here - you can vent your political statements on Myspace. Third, I find your mongering for war and killing distasteful. Миша13 19:23, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

How about leading the way in deleting the userboxes from your own page, M? That one where you declare yourself to be someone who believes all Jews are going to Hell is rather offensive, for example. -- Kendrick7 19:28, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Dude, you're stepping on thin ice. Миша13 19:39, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

It's ok -- I don't mind you expressing your support for this POV on your user page; it's who you are and that's fine, and as far as I am concerned thats what user pages are for. I just wish you'd show others the same courtesy. -- Kendrick7 19:49, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, I'm going to use my one-allowed, off-topic political statement now. I support, and will not under any circumstances withdraw my support for, the right of any people to fight their occupiers. I am not within my rights to make any demands of the resistance that they should act in a way that meets my approval. No occupation force can declare itself the winner of an invasion and declare and all who would oppose it guilty of the crime of war if they resist. And saying that I'm promoting killing is near Orwellian. --MQDuck (talk) 19:29, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Then I suppose you can enlighten me with your vision of armed resistance that does not involve death? Миша13 19:39, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Comment this is precisely the problem. We are a community dedicated to producing an encyclopedia - take ideology an politics and go find another forum!!! No, you are NOT welcome to make "off-topic" political statements here - not when they divert us from our aims.--Doc 19:42, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Oops, you are correct - I got detracted from the point. This must be contagious. *scurries to a corner* Миша13 19:46, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Doc, I've been getting called a terrorist and supporter of killing and so on. I made one single response after all this time, and you take that opportunity to remind me that political statements aren't allowed? --MQDuck (talk) 19:49, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

To Miza: I am the anti-warist, in case you thought that my idea supported terrorism. George W. Bush started the war, and the Iraqis should not use armed resistence, just peaceful resistance. Sorry for giving you the wrong idea, but I guess I will have to sue Misplaced Pages if you think that I don't have free speach here. Its the 💕 here, people! This is my political stace, and you are welcome to your own, but if you can say you don't support it, we can say we support it, and if we can't have one lets not have the other. Editorofthewiki (talk) 19:47, 12 January 2008 (UTC)