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Bulgaria B‑class Top‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Bulgaria, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Bulgaria on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BulgariaWikipedia:WikiProject BulgariaTemplate:WikiProject BulgariaBulgaria B This article has been rated as B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

Founding Date

Does anyone know in what year Plovdiv was founded? If so please add the year to the article.--Moosh88 02:47, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

No, it has been a settlement since prehistoric times.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.158.78.231 (talk • contribs) 10:07, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Reference, please? +ILike2BeAnonymous 16:59, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Deleted Filibe

Filibe was a name of Plovdiv during the Ottoman rule (XIV — XIX century). Nowadays Plovdiv in Turkish is... Plovdiv. I think it is not needed to give names in other languages than national as we have multilingual encyclopedia and making an article in different languages is very easy.--Valkov 16:57, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Article needs to be rewritten in standard English

One problem with this article is that it is quite obviously written by a Bulgarian.

Don't misunderstand me: I love Bulgaria and Bulgarians. But since this is an English "encyclopedia", it's supposed to be written in standard English. The article is full of non-idiomatic phrases and word usages, not to mention random and non-standard punctuation. I've started cleaning it up. Plus, there's a little too much "chamber of commerce" type promotion and over-flowery language used to describe things here. ==ILike2BeAnonymous 18:42, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Captain Burago

I'm hoping that somebody who lives in Plovdiv could help with this — I've created a stub on Captain Aleksandr Burago, and it would be great to have a photo of the monument in Plovdiv for the Misplaced Pages article. Also, could somebody please help exacting his first name — some references suggest that he might be Aleksandr and not Constantin? Please respond over at Talk:Aleksandr Burago. TIA. --BACbKA 12:06, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

External Link - Plovdiv - Granada of the East

The article (http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ahm/plovdiv.htm) is extremely biased. First of all Plovdiv WAS NOT 125,000 in 1878 - this is a grave overestimation - if there were an exodus of 90,000 people, this would have been recorded by the western media... None of this happened. The western media however DID RECORD the massacres in nearby Batak in 1876, so it is not fair to say that it was not interested in the region. The article may mention historical thruth, but it also wrongfully accuses and humiliates the current christian population of the city... I thought that this is an encylopedia, and not a religious propaganda machine...

Further on, the link cites incorrect population numbers - there are not 60,000 Turks + 30,000 muslim Romas in Plovdiv - the data from the last official census (2001) states 60,000 muslims for the ENTIRE PLOVDIV PROVINCE. Plovdiv Province has a population of over 700,000 (please see http://www.nsi.bg/Census_e/Census_e.htm). These incorrect numbers in the 'artcle' further diminish its historical significance - the author does not provide us with correct information for today's demographics of the city, and I do not see how he can be trusted about events that happened 130 years ago... In addition to that, the article states 'formerly insignificant town which had flowered under the aegis of the Sultan and the Islamic economic system' - this is extremely incorrect - Plovdiv was a major centre in the Roman empire. In the Roman times Plovdiv was a capital of Thrace province, and one of the biggest cities in the peninsula. In the Middle ages the city was (among with Constantinople and Tessaloniki) one of the most important centres in the region! How come this can be underestimated! I believe that the article creates a wrongful impression that the city thrived ONLY when it was part of the Ottoman empire. In addition, the author states in the second paragraph that the Muslim and Jewish population of the city fled after Plovdiv was taken by the Russians - this is not true. Bulgaria was one of the few countreis that saved its Jewish population in WWII, and it has also preserved its Muslim population (despite the disgusting attempts of the communists to destroy religion in the country), and I do not see how the Bulgarian population would have started massacres in 1878.

I have nothing against adding a link that discusses the muslim connections of the city, but this is just outragious. The article does state some truths about the Communist rule, but most of the other stuff in there is extremely twisted. Cnn lies 02:55, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree with him. This link semms to me as a falso Turk propaganda and many of the thing written there are lies. For instance may I ask how many churches survived during the ottoman rule from the medieval period?! They are perhaps fewer than 20 in the whole country, and there used to be thousands, and it was the muslims who destroyed them. When the ottomans conquerred Bulgaria, it had a population of around 3,000,000 as England, and when Bulgaria liberated five centuries earlier, it had the same population, while england had more than 40,000,000. And there is almost no cultural legasy left from this peroid, so tell me is it not an age of setback and decline?

And, the Muslims should not complain because now they have more than 1,000 mosques in Bulgaria against 5,000 churches, while they are 10% of the population. And there are 2 large mosques in Plovdiv, one of them in the very centre where there should be a cathedral.

The link is outragios. --Gligan 09:42, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Ditto that. The article is anti-Christian and anti-Bulgarian, and it represents a strong and unsupported point of view; it also totally messes up facts and statistics. It has no place in External links or anywhere else. We don't need propaganda, end of the question. Todor→Bozhinov 10:58, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

+ the user that constantly adds this is well into all sorts of propaganda --Laveol 14:18, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

The link has just been reinserted, so the issue is still with us. Let me try to take this discussion in a slightly different direction and see if that gets us anywhere.

Certainly the linked article is written from a Turkocentric and Islamocentric point of view; that should be obvious to the most casual reader. And let's leave aside, for the moment, the veracity of the claims made in the article. In fact, let's assume for the sake of discussion that the article does contain historical inaccuracies. My question is then, does this automatically disqualify the article for an inclusion as an external link to this article? Mind you, this is a different question from "should this material be incorporated into the article?". We're only discussing whether this belongs here as a link, one which may or may not be followed by readers of the article.

I'd also like to point out some of the obvious baggage connected to this article, at the risk of pissing off people of various ethnicities. Having been to Bulgaria, I can confidently say that, in general, Bulgarians do have a kind of blind spot when it comes to Turks, and possibly even Muslims. This is completely understandable, as the fact of 500 years of Ottoman occupation is inescapable as one travels around the country. But it leaves Bulgarians somewhat in the same position as the Turks themselves, say, regarding their (Turks) insistent denial of the Armenian holocaust; that's another gaping historical blind spot. In general, it seems that no discussion among Balkan people can occur without large amounts of accusations of various crimes against humanity, dredging up of ancient histories, and all that. As a Western observer, it sometimes seems as if people "over there" never forget the slightest injustice, whether it happened last week or a thousand years ago, and this tends to make some of us in the West throw up our hands and say the hell with it. Some of that historical sparring seems to be occuring here. Fine: I understand that there are reasons for this. But perhaps, maybe just this once, people here could put their swords down for a moment and try to look at this somewhat objectively.

My own opinion of the Murad article really doesn't matter, as I'm not qualified to comment on this area of history; it does strike me, though, as very well written, somewhat colorful, and possibly a useful addendum to the article, even taking into account whatever inaccuracies, perceived or real, it contains. +ILike2BeAnonymous 20:17, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I think that you have said it for youtself - the article contains historical lies and bias. I am sorry, but I will not favour the inclusion of the link. The article is an obvious propaganda - my opinion is that it does not have a place in an encyclopedia that claims to give a comprehensive and neutral information. Can you see any Bulgarian nationalistic links around the article? There are some of them around the Internet I am sure, but where is the reason for their inclusion - they will not add anything useful to the contents of the Plovdiv article and I thought that this is the purpose of the external links. Does the existence of a radical theory/article/work make it absolutely necessary for inclusion in Misplaced Pages?

Your comparison with the Armenian genocide is completely flawed. The oppresions of Turks during the communist rule has been aknowledged by different Bulgarian governments many times after 1989. Also a FORMAL appology to the Turkish side was issued by one Bulgarian government - the one led by Ivan Kostov (1997-2001). I do not know the exact date when this happened, but I am certain that this is true. I do not think that ANY Turkish government has come anywhere close to that with regards to the Armenian genocide.

Now, I, myself, do not have any prejudice or bad feelings against Turks - I used to study with some of them at university, back in Bulgaria and with one of them here in Vancouver; and even hang out with them (you may think that I lie, but I DO NOT). It is true that there exists some tension between the two groups, but this is NOT comparable to what has been happening in the neighbouring countries, and people must give credit to the citizens of Bulgaria for that - unfortunately, this is something that noone does. Instead, people are constantly spreading propaganda and hatred around just for their own good feeling... Currently I live in Vancouver, Canada, and there are some Bulgarian Turks and Muslim Bulgarians among us here, and we DO socialize - the distance from the Balkans drives people to a slightly different view of life. But the only thing that I can say is that articles like this one, fueled with obvious and intentional historical lies, are the moving force behind ethnical distrust and hatred. For me, this is a question of principles - being neutral does not necessitates the inclusion of tons and tons of propaganda from any two extremes, it requires support of the middle ground.

If you want to place pictures of the two mosques, do it, no one will stop you from that, otherwise I do not see a reason there should be two links (surprise, surprise) to the article. I want to ask you to stop the game and edit and discuss from ONE USER ACCOUNT. I do not think that editing as 2-3 separate users will help you here - it's against the rules. Cnn lies 01:58, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

On that last note, just for the record, I have nothing to do with the editor who put that link in the article, nor do I have any vested interest in that link one way or the other. (I guess I can forgive you for being suspicious.) Just trying to reach some reasonable accomodation here. +ILike2BeAnonymous 05:16, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the comments about this link, I believe it is being allowed to stay because it is written by a prominent Muslim scholar, but the article is too biased and doesn't represent a true picture of the time period. +Koal4e 12:20, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the link due to the following violation of Misplaced Pages rules

2. Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research. See Reliable sources for explanations of the terms "factually inaccurate material" or "unverifiable research".

The article is misleading as it does not offer an unbiased view of the true history that happened. It talks about horrific massacres of the Muslim population without talking about what the Ottoman Empire had done to the Bulgarian people of Plovdiv thus giving the view that the Ottoman Empire had not caused attrocities themselves. The article also talks about mile after mile of empty shells of communist era factories when the truth is that the Plovdiv of today is one where the economy is thriving greatly and new buildings are being erected at a fast pace to keep up with demand.

The writer is clearly against Bulgarian people as he writes about a mosque in the city "The outside walls are used as a urinal by Bulgarian drunks," to me an external link that is factually incorrect and demonises the same people this article is about does not belong here. +Koal4e 15:50, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Remove that link once and for all! It is full of lies writen by this Tim guy who has converted to islam and is now preaching his lies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.72.93.24 (talk) 19:38, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I have repeatedly removed this external link because I and all other Bulgarians who have shared theit thoughts on the duscussion page findit bias and fual of false information that may mislead its readers.Further more I live in Plovdiv and I find the contents of that article insulting. By the way why don't you write the authors new arab name and not his old one at least the readers may understand why was that thing written. Avidius--Avidius (talk) 22:17, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I reverted your edits because you gave no reason for the removal in the edit summary. Sorry, I did not notice the discussion on the article talk page. Please use the edit summary when removing content/links to avoid any future confusion, as it may not be clear why you are removing it. I will not restore the link now that I know the reason you removed it. I have moved this from my talk page, as I think is more relevant on the article talk page.--CoJaBo (talk)

I have once again removed the link due to the following violation of Misplaced Pages rules

2. Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research. See Reliable sources for explanations of the terms "factually inaccurate material" or "unverifiable research".

The article is misleading as it does not offer an unbiased view of the true history that happened. It talks about horrific massacres of the Muslim population without talking about what the Ottoman Empire had done to the Bulgarian people of Plovdiv thus giving the view that the Ottoman Empire had not caused attrocities themselves. The article also talks about mile after mile of empty shells of communist era factories when the truth is that the Plovdiv of today is one where the economy is thriving greatly and new buildings are being erected at a fast pace to keep up with demand. I also want to add that there is no Leningrad avenue in Plovdiv (you cant even put Leningrad and avenue together as one is masculine and one feminine) but there is a Leningrad Boulevard which is full of shops, new hotels and apartments etc so this is another inaccurate comment.

The writer is clearly against Bulgarian people as he writes about a mosque in the city "The outside walls are used as a urinal by Bulgarian drunks," to me an external link that is factually incorrect and demonises the same people this article is about does not belong here.

My knowledge of Plovdiv is quite strong given I am there for a few months a year and my wife is from Plovdiv. +Koal4e 08:55, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Clean up External Links

I have removed two external links, one from zonebulgaria which had a small paragraph about Plovdiv and that was all, the other was a link to photos that just came up with items not found.

I left the external link - Plovdiv - Granada of the East as there is a deep discussion regarding this although my opinion is that it should be removed until it has more fact based information included and is less biased against the Bulgarian people. +Koal4e 12:20, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

The link Plovdiv-Granada of the east should be removed it has strong antibulgarian purpose and manipulates history e.g it tries to make Plovdiv a historically musslim town and talks about musslims being slaughtered while omitting the fact that when the Ottomans captured it they promptly slaughtered the christians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.72.93.24 (talk) 16:54, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

None of you have given any compelling or valid reasons for constantly removing this link. So far as the objection of the linked material being "biased" goes, so what? It's not part of the article proper, where biased material should be removed: it's an external link. The ridiculous accusation of being "against the Bulgarian people" is neither here nor there: again, such a perceived bias doesn't matter. The article is a scholarly one, and it presents a valid alternative view to the "official" Bulgarian one, which (understandably, perhaps) seeks to erase much of the historical past, especially the parts pertaining to being occupied by the Ottoman Empire. So until someone presents a valid, compelling reason why it shouldn't be here, I'll continue to restore it. +ILike2BeAnonymous (talk) 20:50, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Metro

The population of Plovdiv's metro area is bigger than 400 000 I don't know who changed it but it will be good if shows a source. A more precise number is listed in the operational programme " Regional Development" 2007-2013 created by the Ministry of regional Developments and Public Works. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Avidius (talk • contribs) 16:24, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Population

I have updated the population figures according to a more reliable source. This source is also used as reference for the population of other Bulgarian cities e.g. Varna. Avidius (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 13:41, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

За линка "Пловдив - Гранада на изтока"

Няма ли българи, които да ми помогнат да спрем постоянното включване на тази гнусна статийка написана от някакъв си псевдоучен, който на всичкото от горе туко що приел исляма и вече за да се покаже угоден на Алаха пише тези лъжи. Avidius--Avidius--Avidius (talk) 22:51, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I know this concerns the link to the article "Plovdiv, Granada of the East" from what little Bulgarian I know. Do you mind writing in English here, as this is an English-language project? +ILike2BeAnonymous (talk) 04:10, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Translation...

For link "Plovdiv - Granada of the East"

Isn't there Bulgarians who can help me stop the constant inclusion of this disgusting article written by someone who calls himself a scholar who on top of everything else has accepted Islam as his religion and in order to show himself good to Allah is writing these lies. +Koal4e 09:12, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

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