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ScienceApologist continuing incivility

User:ScienceApologist has a civility restriction here: Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Martinphi-ScienceApologist#ScienceApologist_restricted. In this diff he violates WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA. It's true he removed it upon advice from someone, but he still said it. He also violates WP:CIVIL here where he's uses foul language to another user several times and "WTF" in the summary. He violates WP:CIVIL again here, removing a users' edit from his (SA's) own talk page, but used foul language again in the summary, but this time in all caps. Sumoeagle179 (talk) 14:36, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Martinphi

Subject to Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Martinphi-ScienceApologist, Martinphi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is not to be disruptive. I find this statement of non-cooperation to be needlessly personal and highly disruptive in our attempts to move beyond page protection: . I removed it . It is my opinion that this user is continuing disruption for the sake of disruption. The current tendentious arbitration request he has made might also be of interest. ScienceApologist (talk) 00:25, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

That was meant to move the debate forward. Please, everyone, read it. It was not a put-down, but a real suggestion which gave people a chance to move forward. Further, it was an assumption of good faith on my part. It says nothing uncivil, though it does say that SA is not a neutral editor, which is simply a statement that he is on one side of the debate- I, also, am not a neutral editor in that sense. In other words, it comments on contributions, not contributors. Reporting here is harassment (also see ). If you read what I wrote assuming that I really meant SA or other editors to do the things suggested (mediation, writing a new lead while taking into consideration the talk page), you will see what I mean. As far as rudeness, I am talking about the many, many edits like this. Also see .

The Arbitration request is a good-faith attempt to bring the situation to the Arbitrators, and was rejected not because it was invalid, but mainly because it was not specific enough. That was a mistake, but the arbitration request is legit.

Anyway, talking about rudeness openly on the Bleep page was an attempt to move the stalled debate forward, and to try and get a useful process going. Both sides have been rude, as I make clear. The process would re-start if my suggestions were followed, and good faith extended. Meanwhile, if there is no AGF, or even a pretense of AGF, things continue as they are, and nothing will get done, just like I said. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 01:07, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

In what way is it an assumption of good faith to tell SA that he can write a new lead but he will have to promise to not revert any changes and furthermore give up his "right" to edit the article ever again? (I suggest he write such a lead, as a good-faith way to express to the community that he is willing to compromise, and that he will abide by consensus. Also, he will need to give up the option to revert any changes he doesn't like, and give up editing the article directly against or without consensus.) I see very little reason not to ban you from editing the article for 30 days under the terms of your editing restriction. If we going to start tossing blocks at SA for being uncivil when baited, I see no reason to allow you free rein to push his buttons. The ban will be enacted in 24 hours unless there is a consensus of uninvolved admins here that I have got it wrong. Thatcher 01:24, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

This sounds like a fine idea to me, but I would like to see Martinphi prohibited from making frivolous noticeboard complaints. A ban from posting on this board might be in order. --Akhilleus (talk) 01:30, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd rather not. We can ignore them or rapidly decline and archive reports that truly have no merit. It still seems early for an outright ban from the noticeboard. Thatcher 01:40, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I think this edit war declaration by SA today and this WQA by SA are pertinent here. Both sides of this overly long debate have taken to filing frivolous claims to solve their issues and need to stop and solve them themselves. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:45, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

See also this diff where SA says he'll make it 10K words and laughs. — Rlevse • Talk • 02:54, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Good grief, are you seriously interpreting this as a threat to disrupt? I realize you aren't exactly fond of SA, but this is too much. Raymond Arritt (talk) 03:17, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Riiiiight. Because I'm such a villain that I always laugh like this: "Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha." I don't know what to make of this: it's almost absurd. Anthon01 was basically declaring on my talk page that only a single sentence of criticism should go in the lead of WTBDWK. I was merely pointing out how ludicrous this kind of proscribing is. Question: is there any edit that I've made in the last five years that placed 10K in the lead of any article? After you look through those 20,000 contributions maybe you can tell me whether or not I was being serious. ScienceApologist (talk) 03:21, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I do not appreciate this administrator mischaracterizing a good faith effort to provide an alternative version in talk space, and a report I filed because the user I was upset with told me to go through dispute resolution. What the fuck do you want me to do? Rlevse has all but stonewalled me and I am collecting his constant harranging comments about what I'm doing. I'm sick and tired of it. I would appreciate it if he just stayed out of this stuff because I don't trust him to be fair or neutral. The WQA was made to try to alert people that there was a problem. The comment from the article talk page being referred to is inviting people to edit a version of a lead that I am offering (my version in talk space: not the article's version). It's far from an edit war declaration, and I am so sick and tired of Rlevse misinterpretting my actions and poisoning wells wherever I go in trying to resolve the issues with the massive POV-wars happening at Misplaced Pages. ScienceApologist (talk) 02:45, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Thatcher, that was not what I meant. That is horrible, and if I said anything similar, SA and everyone has my sincerest apology. I just didn't mean that, but rather that the article shouldn't be edited without consensus, and the new lead should not be under the control of one editor, who would revert anything he doesn't like- not in order to punish SA, but because it just wouldn't work. It wouldn't work for him any more than me.

Anyway, I could defend myself here, but obviously someone has it in for me. I did my best to help out and suggest a way forward, and it is construed as pushing buttons.

God, why would you think I said he should never edit the article again???? What is this???

Again, I'd like a little neutrality here. Not to mention a little fairness and AGF. I won't attempt a detailed explanation, because reading what I wrote in the context of the actual article page and SA's actual suggestions on how to proceed will to a neutral observer show that I was attempting to help, and that only extreme lack of assumption of good faith can say otherwise.

Nothing in the Arbitration said I couldn't criticize anything SA did. I have that right, and it is not pushing buttons. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 01:48, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

For the record, the article in question is currently locked because while every other editor was participating in an RfC to discuss changes made to the lead, ScienceApologist edit warred to make sure his lead was installed instead, against the consensus of several editors who were participating in the RfC. Martinphi's suggestion may have been a bit extreme, but a 30 day ban for making it? This might be a bit much, especially since it was SA's actions that led to the page being locked. I'm not an admin, but I wanted to comment in case arbitrators weren't familiar with the background behind Martinphi's comment. If this belongs on someone's talk page rather than here, please feel free to move it. --Nealparr 01:51, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I meant only that he shouln't make nonconsensus edits- like everyone else. I meant also that it wouldn't work to revert anything he didn't like in a proposed edition of the lead. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 01:56, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Thatcher, It was in context, and should read:

Also, he will need to give up the option to revert any changes to his proposed lead he doesn't like (otherwise the process won't work), and give up editing the article directly against or against consensus. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 02:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

• Martin, I did misread the comment somewhat but it is still patronizing and insulting. Presumably you have not agreed to give up your right to revert "nonconsensus" edits made by SA or any other editor of the article. Thatcher 02:17, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

New section

Let's start over. I misinterpreted Martinphi's comment, although I still don't like it. I need to think some more about a response. And SA's "declaration to edit war" clearly applies to a draft of the article lede he was writing in talk space. So give me a few minutes to collect my wits and see what is really going on here. Thatcher 03:40, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I got an email from a party which is friendly, saying that what I said sounded like a command. I do see that, and I did not mean it to. It would have been better not to address SA directly at all. I could have said the same things without speaking directly of him. It was truly my intent to try and bring both peace and progress (I'm not going to pretend I was very hopeful, but it didn't occur to me he would even report it because I didn't think I said anything bad). It certainly wan't my intent to taunt him or push any buttons. But, I can see retrospectively that it could be seen that way, and you and he have my apology.

Just because I want to say this: I have about a 3 hour limit on being angry. I can be very persistent on an issue, but I'm usually not angry after 1-3 hours, often even in life-changing situations. So, I tend to come and edit normally, and assume others are not angry either. The fact is that while my self-control is good, it isn't as good as it looks: if I'd been as angry as people generally must assume, there would be quite a few instances of my (intended) incivility around here. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 04:32, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Added later: I can see how in context of the general dispute it could be seen as my putting myself above the fray and saying how SA should do things if he wants to play. I just didn't mean it that way. I did mean it to be a true and fair analysis of exactly what needed to be done if progress is to be made. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 05:03, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

You may have been trying to propose a solution, but the way it was worded, it could be interpreted as a command. I'm not saying it was, just commenting that thats one possible intepretation. Anthon01 (talk) 05:09, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, understood and already apologized. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 05:48, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

"Presumably you have not agreed to give up your right to revert "nonconsensus" edits made by SA" Actually, Thatcher, I mainly have: I've been pretty much sticking to 1RR for a long time now, and doing even that almost never. SA has had the run of the articles, and certainly could out-revert me (and has in I believe every article I tried a revert on). ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 04:57, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Request for clarification

It is unclear whether the arbcom's injunction for Martinphi not to participate in "disruption" was intended to apply solely in article space, or whether it also includes activities such as frivolous use of process and baseless accusations against other users. Specifically, in the Arbitration request noted above Martinphi accused a group of editors of carrying on a campaign of "large and ongoing disruptions." No evidence was provided that the editors in question organized their purported disruptions, nor indeed that their "disruptions" were anything other than attempts to present perspectives with which Martinphi disagreed. Thus it would be useful for arbcom to clarify the scope of its remedy. Raymond Arritt (talk) 01:24, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I changed that to "create," rather than "organize," per your interpretation. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 04:44, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

"Any edit judged to be disruptive" and "banned from any page or set of pages" clearly applies to all pages on Misplaced Pages (also by convention in past cases). For example, evidence cited by the Arbs included edits to user talk and the Featured Article talk page. Do you wish to request enforcement for disruption by Martinphi somewhere? Or just asking for future reference? Thatcher 01:28, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Such phrasing by the Committee always means including talk, unless they exempt it. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:41, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Mostly for clarification. Historically Martinphi has tended to read arbcom decisions in a very narrow and formalistic sense, so I wanted to clarify the proper interpretation. Martinphi, do you acknowledge now being aware of this interpretation of the ruling's scope? Raymond Arritt (talk) 02:17, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I have no idea about unwritten tradition. But I don't know why the committee would bother to write it out so carefully if what they really meant was "ban/block him if you feel there is cause." It was obviously very specific and carefully written. I accepted it as written, and endeavored to conform to it. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 04:36, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

The words were: "Should they make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be disruptive, they may be banned from any affected page or set of pages." They went on:

"Should they violate this ban, they may be blocked for the duration specified in the enforcement ruling below." Emphasis added. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 04:39, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

So then, is it your interpretation is that the ruling does not apply to disruption outside of article space? By your reading you'd have to first be banned from a page outside of article space (say, WP:RFAR) and then you'd have to violate that ban before any blocks could be applied, correct? Just trying to make sure everyone is on the same page here. Raymond Arritt (talk) 04:57, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Martin is correct about the manner in which the restriction is to be enforced, if necessary. He may be banned from any page or set of pages he disrupts, and if he violates the ban by editing such pages (or evades it by editing while logged out or using sockpuppets) he can be blocked. Personally, I start with temporary bans and only escalate if problems persist, and blocks for violating any bans similarly start out brief and escalate only if necessary. Thatcher 05:41, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

If I understand what you're saying, does this mean arbcom didn't intend to restrict disruption in Misplaced Pages space (say, frivolous use of process)? Raymond Arritt (talk) 05:54, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Arritt, that isn't what I said: only that a total ban from WP is not in the Arbitration case, but only blocks after violation of specific-page bans. That is not how it was applied before when I was blocked, as I wasn't banned from a page nor did I violate a ban.

And Thatcher, here is the text of the blocking:

1) Should any user subject to an editing restriction in this case violate that restriction, they may be briefly blocked, up to a week in the event of repeated violations. After 5 blocks, the maximum block shall increase to one month.

I was blocked once, and I still can't see how that block was within the specified process.

I also think that my edit at Bleep was not intended to be anything bad, and I fully intend to not directly engage SA in the future in the way I did there. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 05:59, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Again, I'm trying to clarify whether disruption in Misplaced Pages-space is relevant here. Your explanation above indicates that arbcom did not intend that any sanction could be applied for disruptive activities such as frivolous use of WP:RFAR, WP:RFC, and such. Correct? (All this is hypothetical of course; I'm sure you would never consider doing such things.) Raymond Arritt (talk) 06:04, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Raymond, the decision says "Any edits" and both Martin and I have used the formulation "any page" so I am confused at your apparent confusion. The restriction applies to all of Misplaced Pages, including article, talk, project, template, and any other space. (As a matter of personal preference, I would be extremely reluctant to ban anyone from the pages of the dispute resolution process itself, but it could be done under appropriate circumstances.) Thatcher 13:16, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Meowy/IP combination

Meowy (talk · contribs) removed a reference on Shusha pogrom at 17:11, 18 January 2008 and an IP has done the same with an edit summary that reads like it is a follow on. As it appears to be an informed Wikipedian doing the edit, the most reasonable explanation is that it is Meowy, or a meatpuppet. Per WP:RFAR/AA2#List of users placed under supervision, Meowy is under revert limitations. John Vandenberg (talk) 07:08, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

 Confirmed Checkuser. Restrictions notified. FT2  07:13, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me, but what on earth is your point? Where is the rule that says an editor has to sign in before making an edit? As I have just explained on the talk page of that article, my account must have timed-out (or perhaps I just forgot to sign in) when I made that edit. So, unknown to me, my IP address appeared rather than my name. There was no intent to deceive (why would I want to?), and I have not broken the three-reverts rule. Nor was there any "aggressive point of view manner marked by incivility" in my edit, or in anything I wrote in the article's talk page. I explained the reason for my edit when I made it, and it was done on reasonable grounds. So, again, I ask "what's your point?" Meowy 17:55, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

You were notified here that you are subject to a limit of one revert per week per article. However, the first removal is just an edit; the IP edit is a reversion, so you have your one revert per week. Thatcher 01:48, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I had presumed that this edit was essentially a revert of the prior edit with insignificant other modification for it to be called an "edit". These days, it is standard practise for all parties to perform other minor modifications when doing a revert . John Vandenberg (talk) 02:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

User:Mrg3105

At Talk:Iaşi-Chişinău Offensive, I politely requested Mrg3105 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) to refer to "Romania" not "Rumania", while at the same time saying he could call it what he pleased. In his first reply, he used the phrase "as much as you may dislike that personally", although I never expressed a dislike for Russians. I then reiterated my (and sources') preference for "Romania", which prompted a much more incivil second reply (with the edit summary "go for it Rumanians"). Excerpts: "I feel that I can continue to put logic or facts before you, and you will not see it if "it hit you in the face" as the saying goes. You and others are just intent to make the article as Rumanian/Romanian as you can for the sake of Romanian PRIDE you MUST insert as much ROMANIAN CONTENT into the article as possible. Well, go for it, but I will make you work for it, YOU can bet on that. EVERYTHING YOU SAY WILL HAVE TO BE REFERENCED AND SOURCED PROPERLY IN ENGLISH. you go and find your 'majority'". This is completely uncalled-for. I (and others) are attempting to engage in a dispassionate naming discussion, and here comes Mrg3105 to impute sinister motives on my part. I believe this is a violation of the Digwuren general restriction because Mrg3105, "working on topics related to Eastern Europe", has made edits that are "uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith", and thus formal action should be taken against him. -- Biruitorul (talk) 04:21, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Warned him on his talk page. Will leave this AE case open a couple days to see what happens. — Rlevse • Talk • 17:08, 15 January 2008 (UTC)w

Thatcher has also warned him, . — Rlevse • Talk • 22:29, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Is this acceptable? Mrg3105 is trying to discredit participants in a move request due to their apparent ethnic origin: "(look at the pages of these users) Biruitorul (very Rumanian), AdrianTM obviously not without Rumanian POV, Turgidson has a "Romanian Barnstar of National Merit", Eurocopter tigre is Rumanian, Roamataa another Rumanian". This appears to be a violation of WP:NPA, as well as a clear attempt to sow divisiveness on national lines. -- Biruitorul (talk) 12:52, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Noted. Ioeth _{(talk contribs friendly)} 17:45, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

After that note on Mrg3105's userpage, the conversation moved to my talk page here. After I let that conversation die, Mrg3105 posted this request on the Digwuren case talk page. Would someone mind reviewing these? Ioeth _{(talk contribs friendly)} 20:11, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Let's see what happens with his request on the case page. — Rlevse • Talk • 20:32, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

That's fine by me. I would like to note, though, that I think the last message he left on my talk page is the most offensive one I've ever received on Misplaced Pages, which is why I am interested in getting others involved. Thanks. Ioeth _{(talk contribs friendly)} 20:40, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

These two edits are also particularly troubling, as they seem to have spawned from this situation. "Incivility" article and "Logic" article talk page. Ioeth _{(talk contribs friendly)} 22:49, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I didn't pick up on the edit to your talk page at first. Blocked for 24 hours. Thatcher 23:36, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

• I moved the appeal to Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration#Appeals_and_requests_for_clarification. The Arbitrators generally do not watch closed cases. Thatcher 20:36, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok, now what happens to the undiscussed arbitrary renaming of the historically non-extant Battle of Romania into the non-WP:UE, non-WP:MILMOS#NAME, and non-WP:ROR compliant Iaşi-Chişinău Offensive, and the subsequent denial of the RM based on arguments that did not apply to the reasons given for the RM?--mrg3105mrg3105 01:05, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Resolved requests

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Back to the Troubles ArbCom

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

no action needed

I have placed Aatomic1 (talk · contribs) under probation under the provisions of the The Troubles for further revert-warring on Birmingham pub bombings. Please note the history of this editor with this article, this is approximately the fourth or fifth time he's been sanctioned for edit-warring on this article, and less then a month after the previous probation for edit-warring (which was endorsed by ArbCom) expired. I am pre-emptively bringing this up, because of the history of this editor, and his numerous complaints after the last probation was placed on him. SirFozzie (talk) 23:39, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Derek Smart

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

blocked user per below

Per the remedy labelled #7 at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Derek Smart, surrogates of Derek Smart are banned from editing his article. 3000ad (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) claims on the account's user page to be used by the PR department of his company, and is editing the article. I pointed this out to 3000ad, but was told I was misinterpreting the Arbcom remedy. More eyes would be welcome here. - Ehheh (talk) 22:12, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Two things:

1) there is no remedy 7, only 1-5 and by surrogate do you mean sock or spa?

2) role accounts and shared accounts are not allowed and I've blocked for that reason and noted it on the case page. — Rlevse • Talk • 21:20, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

There are five remedies but they are numbered 1, 2, 3.1, 7 and 8, from the proposed decision page. Thatcher 21:23, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah, blockable without the remedy anyway. But it also violated that remedy because it directly edited the article page. — Rlevse • Talk • 21:26, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

User:Zeq

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

no action, see comments by Thatcher

Zeq was banned from Palestinian exodus and placed on probation a little less than two years ago. (case) He's recently been quite disruptive on Palestinian right of return, which is closely related to the Palestinian exodus.

• Move-warring the article to dubious titles:
• Edit-warring argumentative language into the lede:
• Edit-warring a distinction between real "refugees" and descendants of refugees, despite a mountain of sources (see Talk:Palestinian_right_of_return#RfC:_Descendants) showing that this distinction is not widely adopted, and it specifically disclaimed by scholars of international law:

<eleland/talkedits> 16:50, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually I engage in a civil discussion in the talk page and avoided edit warring. for example when my edits are reverted I have asked on the talk page that they would be re-inserted and indeed in some case they were (by others, among them the revrter) and in some cases they were not. The subject is indeed a tough subject and different POVs need to be represnted. Indeed I was requested on the talk page to better ex

PS the diffs above are legitimate edits - there is no edit war. (clearly in his point #3 above in which User:Eleland claims that my edits do not fit what exprest in int'l law have decided he is not making a distinction between a content dispute (a valid dispute in wikipedia) and behaviour which is edit war. (I have not engage in such behaviour but Eleland has a problem with my views not my behaviour)

I have tried different attempts at compromise - again some accepted some don't. I have not done repeated edits - unlike others in this article who have reverted many times. Zeq (talk) 18:02, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

The moves were a bad idea. As for the rest, I will look into it. Thatcher 18:20, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Please, see here, here and last two sections here. Ceedjee (talk) 18:31, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I can agree that at least one of the moves were not a good idea. (the 2nd was made a redirect: - both moves are a good faith attempt to fix a NPOV problem that still exist. After two attempts (not the same one - I tried alternatives) I have accepted the suggestion on talk to keep the name as it is. In any case since that time there were many edits and discussions in this article - all are legitimate edits. There is a big difference between content dispute and edit war. This was not edit war on my part - I avoided reverting although my edits are routinly reverted on this article.

Maybe it is about time to consider the fact that I have been under probation for a long time. Other editors may think that any dispute with me, any revert on their part give them some advantage in the cosntent dispute since I am on probation. If anyone should be snactioned about this article it is those who revert it frequntly and not me - who suggests alternatives to fix inherent problems in this article. btw, if anyone wants to mediate this tough article he/she is more than welcome. As part of my first arbcom case there was a promise by one of the arbitors to mediate the dispute in the exodus article but enfortunatly it proven too tough. Maybe applling an equal playing field to all editors will go a long way to create a more civilized editing environment to all. Zeq (talk) 18:54, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

• Response The diffs given in the report above show 6 edits by Zeq to the article lede over 20 days, only two on the same day. It's not much on which to base a finding of disruption. There seems to be productive discussion on the talk page and a fair amount of prickliness by several editors, and I don't see that Zeq has pushed his own view to the point of unreasonableness, after he's reverted a couple of times he stops and talks about it but the same is true of others. I don't see any basis for a page ban at this time. Zeq is correct that the new broad discretionary sanctions place all editors of these topics on the same equal footing, more or less. Hopefully you can move forward with grace, dignity and mutual self-respect. Thatcher 02:42, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

ScienceApologist's RTV

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

Enough is enough. "This poll sucks" is not uncivil under any meaning that I can think of. I'm also not going to take action on a complaint about a comment made 10 days ago, stricken 9 days ago, removed, and then restored. End of message. Thatcher 02:03, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

NOTE: I moved this here as it is a separate issue from the one it was file under to "reopen". I also renamed it from "Request to reopen Arbitration Enforcement". — Rlevse • Talk • 20:23, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Add case link to Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Martinphi-ScienceApologist. Thatcher 22:20, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I have notified ScienceApologist of this discussion. Cardamon (talk) 03:11, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

ScienceApologist, after receiving at 72-hour block for edit warring on What the Bleep Do We Know!?, applied for the Right to Vanish. His user page and talk page were blanked accordingly. However, ScienceApologist has not vanished. At all. Instead, he has returned to Talk:What the Bleep Do We Know!? where dispute resolution is underway and his first act was one of incivility. Please see this (diff). I, in turn, removed the incivility and posted (IMHO) a very civil message on ScienceApologist talk page (diff). This posting was immediate deleted by ScienceApologist with an edit summary stating: "rv POV pushing by Levine2112" (diff). This was followed by a pretty terse posting at my talk page (diff). -- Levine2112 23:17, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

• You could always try asking your pseudoscience and fringe POV-pushing friends to stop baiting him. That would probably work - unlike pretending your personally-directed rudeness is civil and his more general testiness is not. Guy (Help!) 23:48, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

• There was no baiting involved. ScienceApologist came out of "retirement" to make the uncivil actions I detail above. Can you please elucidate what you mean by my "personally-directed rudeness". A diff would help. Thanks. -- Levine2112 00:36, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

ScienceApologist continues to add uncivil comments to a space where dispute resolution is underway (diff). -- Levine2112 00:39, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Uh-Oh, seems to be a lot of tag team baiting and POV pushing occuring over here, lead by (not unexpectantly - given the editor in question and the subject matter) Levine2112. His postings here should be seen as they are in various other forums (ANi, WQA) as gaming the system to subdue an editor that doesn't agree with his and his posse's POV. Seen it before and probably will continue to see it until the Community decides to stop it. Shot info (talk) 01:35, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages has around six million editors. Of that six million, Levine2112 is in the top five worst possible candidates to be correcting SA on his behaviour or bringing complaints here. I'm sick to death of fringe bullshit POV-pushers baiting SA and then coming running to mommy when he gets riled. If they can't stop obsessively pushing this bullshit - which long experience indicates they can't - then they need to learn to work constructively with those who hold a mainstream POV, not constantly pick fights with them and then complain about the fight. In short, Levine and his pals (and most especially Martinphi) need to stop spitting in the soup. Now. Both Martinphi and Levine should be banned fomr complaining ab out SA, as vexatious litigants. Guy (Help!) 18:43, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

All I asked JzG for was a diff justifying his assertion of "personally-directed rudeness" from me toward SA. He has not provided any, but rather demonstrated his own brand of personally-directed rudeness toward me. JzG, please consider WP:NPA. I believe your attacks to be unwarranted. I am again requesting a diff(s) from you which demonstrates how any of the attacks you have launched onto me here are justified. You can provide that to me here, or preferably in a more appropriate forum. -- Levine2112 20:25, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Stop spitting in the soup. As I said, of the six million or so registered Wikipedians, you are in the top handful of worst possible candidates to be correcting SA on his behaviour. There is essentially no chance whatsoever that he would perceive your involvement as anything other than baiting, and if you had an ounce of self-criticism in your entire body you would realise this. For you to be doing this is basically trolling. Stop doing it. Guy (Help!) 10:52, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Rlevse and Thatcher below that this is a minor infraction. What I don't understand is why Guy is accusing Levine but refusing to provide diffs to support his accusation. Guy, could you explain how Levine is baiting SA? Are you suggesting that Levine should avoid the Bleep talk page since SA would get upset by his involvement there? Anthon01 (talk) 15:34, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

And another of the fringe pushers crawls out of the woodwork. Incidentally, are you Anthony Zaffuto? Guy (Help!) 22:24, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I consider your characterization uncivil. Please retract your statement, and please apply WP:CIVIL in addressing me. Are you going to answer my question? You've accused Levine; please provide diffs. Thank you. Anthon01 (talk) 01:31, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not saying Levine2112 is innocent, but ScienceApologist needs to learn to control his responses as he is being uncivil as the diffs prove. It is also a fact that he RTV'd has his pages deleted, came back, posted a note about being tired of wikidrama, and resumed editing in within a day. Now that is wikidrama. — Rlevse • Talk • 20:27, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, and Levine needs to learn not to escalate it, which is what he did. Although I have a nasty suspicion that said escalation was deliberate. Guy (Help!) 10:52, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

• Wikidrama is not an actionable offense, and if this is the most uncivil comment you can find, then Report declined. Thatcher 20:29, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Thatcher that wikidrama is not actionable, I was just making an observation. — Rlevse • Talk • —Preceding comment was added at 20:35, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

• Look, SA can be blocked for incivility, and we can read that pretty broadly if needed to prevent disruption, but "this poll sucks" is not what the committee had in mind, I think. Think of this board as an emergency room; you don't have to wait for a compound fracture before filing a report, but don't report every hangnail either, please. Thatcher 22:18, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Understood. My hope is that there won't be any emergencies causing me to bring the situation here again. Thanks for the attention which you have given this. -- Levine2112 23:54, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

My hope is that there won't be any emergencies causing me to bring the situation here again. The diff you supplied is an emergency? Seems like the POV pushers will be looking to forum shop now. It seems the Community is tired of your crying wolf over every little papercut... Shot info (talk) 00:40, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

No. As Thatcher informed, it was not an emergency. Note from what you quoted that I said "any emergencies" rather than "any more emergencies". Meaning I wasn't calling the incident which lead me here an "emergency" and that I am hoping there won't be any emergencies. -- Levine2112 01:16, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

OMG the irony. And sure enough, you forum shopped. Predictable - and your crying wolf is noted by all it seems. Keep up the good work! Shot info (talk) 03:39, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I support ScienceApologist. We need editors like SA to fight the supporters of pseudoscience. Masterpiece2000 (talk) 10:10, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not involved in any of these cases that are ongoing but there is a lot going on. I think another editor retired from being an editor on the same day that Scienceapologist was set to retire. I just want to say that I am glad that SA decided not to retire. I watch all of these boards to learn more about policies and to see what is going on here at Misplaced Pages. I agree with the comments made by Masterpiece2000. My feel for all these on going actions is that alternate/fringe editors are trying to get science related editors blocked/banned or so frustrated that they will leave. The sad part to me is this seems to be working. There needs to be a way to allow all editors to be involved without a gang like mentality which is what I believe is going on. This can be seen by the list of editor involvement at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Martinphi-ScienceApologist. This is of course my own personal observations as an outsider but I think all of these complaints should be closed and that warnings should be placed to remind editors that group POV pushing is not acceptable. Thanks for taking the time to listen to me. --CrohnieGal 13:19, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Unless I am missing something, this discussion seems to have moved away from the question. Did the editor use "right to vanish" as a means of "gaming the system"?

I am here because of a related ArbCom action involving a personal attack and threat by ScienceApologist in which SA was instructed remove the offensive remarks and apologize, as a means of avoiding a block. The issue remains unresolved due to inaction on SA's part. In the context of user SA's invocation of RTV, I had his comments removed. Now, upon SA's un-vanishing, I have restored them and consider that matter as yet unresolved. riverguy42 aka WNDL42 (talk) 14:24, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Holy smokes, you restored offensive comments that had been deleted?? Ladies and gentlemen, here we have a textbook case of WP:POINT, one that so perfectly fits the definition that it ought to be included as one of the enumerated examples there. Raymond Arritt (talk) 18:57, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

No SA did not use RTV as a way of gaming the system, he reacted in a common way to a block brought on by an inappropriate reaction on his part to inappropriate but unsanctioned behaviour from POV-pushers, and the complaints are almost all brought by those self-same POV-pushers. Guy (Help!) 22:24, 19 January 2008 (UTC)