Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 23:57, 30 January 2008

Template:RFMF

Animal rights B‑class Top‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Animal rights, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of animal rights on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Animal rightsWikipedia:WikiProject Animal rightsTemplate:WikiProject Animal rightsAnimal rights B This article has been rated as B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

Archives

1 2 3 4 5 6 7

This page is not the place to give your views on animal testing. This page is for discussing the Misplaced Pages page animal testing.

Draize test

I'm concerned that the current description of the Draize test from the National Anti-Vivisection Society website may not be accurate. I found an article called "The Draize Eye Test and in vitro alternatives; a left-handed marriage?" that describes the test in detail. It states:

Exposure conditions in the Draize Test

What is not highlighted in the discussions so far, however, is surprisingly enough the conduct and course of the test itself, although several investigators have discussed the unrealistic exposure conditions of the Draize Eye Test, i.e., instillation in the conjunctival cul-de-sac of the rabbits eye, compared to potential human exposure (Freeberg et al., 1986 and Roggeband et al., 2000).

For most routine acute and repeat toxicity tests, standard exposure times and/or delivery of dosage (orally, intravenously, etc.) are well-defined. In the dermal irritation test, for example, the entire dosage is held by a patch onto the skin for an exact period of time. In the eye irritation test, however, neither of these well-defined conditions exists. For liquids, pastes and solids, it is impossible to estimate how much and for how long the test substance stays in contact with the eye. For aqueous, non-viscous formulations the standard instillation of 0.1 ml in the conjunctival cul-de-sac of the rabbit and the holding of the eye-lids for 1 s, results in a rapid removal of the material within seconds/minutes through blinking with the nictitating membrane (third eye-lid) and grooming by the rabbit.

This contrasts with the situation for sticky pastes for example, which cannot be removed that easily. The most dramatic variation in contact time and dosage occurs with solids. Even if applied as a 0.1 ml equivalent (the content of the cul-de-sac), the actual amount of a powder/solid that stays in contact with the eye is unpredictable. More importantly, the contact time may vary from a couple of minutes to 24 h, because rinsing the eye is not allowed before the 24-h reading (only recently changed to 1 h for solids in the 2002 update of OECD guideline no. 405).

Note that the animal's eye is only held closed for about one second and that blinking is not prevented. This fits the official OECD test guideline Guideline 405. Similarly in the article The Draize eye test. blinking is again specifically noted.

A solution can be instilled into the lower conjunctival sac or dropped directly onto the cornea. To avoid unnecessary discomfort, a topical anesthetic drug is sometimes instilled before the test agent. Depending on the animal's response, the test substance may remain in contact with the eye, be blinked away, or be diluted by tearing.

Does anybody have any objection to me correcting this description? Tim Vickers (talk) 20:44, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Could you first say here what you'd like to write, to avoid reversions? SlimVirgin 20:50, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

How about:

Eye irritation is usually measured using the Draize test. The protocol recommended by the OECD involves applying the test substance to the eye of an animal, usually an albino rabbit. The effects are then observed at intervals, and any damage or irritation graded. The OECD protocol states that the test should be halted and the animal killed if it shows continual and severe pain or distress, but less severe effects may be allowed to continue for days. The Draize test has been strongly criticised for being cruel, as well as being subjective, over-sensitive, and failing to reflect human exposures in the real world. Although no accepted in vitro alternatives exist, a modified forms of the Draize test called the low volume eye test may reduce suffering and provide more realistic results, but it has not yet replaced the original test. Tim Vickers (talk) 21:09, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

There a very good review on this topic that has just been published this month - PMID 17701961

May I suggest combining the texts?

"Irritancy is usually measured using the Draize test, where a test substance is applied to an animal's eyes or skin, usually an albino rabbit. For Draize eye testing, the rabbits' heads are held in place, and clips used to hold their eyes open to prevent them from blinking away the test solution. The protocol recommended by the OECD involves observing the effects of the substance at intervals, and grading any damage or irritation. The protocol states that the test should be halted and the animal killed if there is continual and severe pain or distress, but lesser effects may be allowed to continue for days. The National Anti-Vivisection Society writes that the test compounds often leave the animals' eyes ulcerated and bleeding. The test has been criticized for being cruel, as well as subjective, over-sensitive, and failing to reflect human exposures in the real world. Although no accepted in vitro alternatives exist, a modified form of the Draize test called the low volume eye test may reduce suffering and provide more realistic results, but it has not yet replaced the original test."

Plus whatever refs are needed for the new information (but please, no citation templates).

If there is a discrepancy between the sources on the blinking isssue, we'll have to look into it further. There are likely to be neutral(ish) secondary sources around for an issue like that. SlimVirgin 23:01, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

We can't state that clips hold animals' eyes open if the reliable sources that deal with this specific topic refute this assertion. The National Anti-Vivisection Society website has no named authors and has no clear editorial process - it is a questionable source. The claims made by this source are in clear contradiction of the more reliable secondary sources that have named authors and have been published in peer-reviewed journals with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. We would need to find a reliable source to support such a claim. I have removed the questionable material for now, until we can come to consensus on replacement. Tim Vickers (talk) 00:20, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm still looking around for a source about the clips. So far as I can tell, the sources who mention it all rely on Peter Singer's 1975 version of Animal Liberation, a claim that is not in his updated version, so it may be outdated. However, I'm not done looking yet. In the course of looking around, I've found some better descriptions of the test, which we might want to use, including a photograph showing a dog used alongside the rabbits. SlimVirgin 14:27, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I had a look at some images of Draize testing and couldn't see anything that looked like clips near the animals' eyes - but that's original research I know! Some of the sources I have read mention that the test was "standardised" in the mid 1980s, so perhaps that did refer to an older version of the test. How about removing that statement and using the Humane Society of the United States as a more notable and reliable source of criticism? Tim Vickers (talk) 17:27, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

"Irritancy is usually measured using the Draize test, where a test substance is applied to an animal's eyes or skin, usually an albino rabbit. For Draize eye testing, the protocol recommended by the OECD involves observing the effects of the substance at intervals and grading any damage or irritation, but that the test should be halted and the animal killed if there is "continual and severe pain or distress". The Humane Society of the United States writes that the procedure can cause redness, ulceration, hemorrhaging, cloudiness, or even blindness. The test has also been criticized by scientists for being cruel and inaccurate, since it is subjective, over-sensitive, and fails to reflect human exposures in the real world. Although no accepted in vitro alternatives exist, a modified form of the Draize test called the low volume eye test may reduce suffering and provide more realistic results, but it has not yet replaced the original test."

That would be fine with me, though I'd like to be able to tweak it around a little with some of the stuff I've found (good sources). But I may not do it, or I may not do it soon, so I'm fine with you inserting what you have. SlimVirgin 18:59, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Great, thank you. Will do. Tim Vickers (talk) 19:01, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Pain section

I've removed this as it doesn't really seem to say anything:

The 1990 Assessment and Control of the Severity of Scientific Procedures on Laboratory Animals, to "aid communication between all those concerned with the use and welfare of laboratory animals", presents a detailed severity index metric for the operational assessing and controlling of pain and distress in laboratory animal procedures based on numerically assigned evaluations of the following considerations: consciousness, anesthesia, preparation, restraint, duration, tissue sensitivity, organ risk, mortality, pain, distress, deprivation, and frequency. Operational control of severity considerations include: management practices, psychosocial influences, disease, objective measurement and record keeping, training, procedure design practices, basic husbandry considerations, and planning for emergency and humane end-points for each procedure.

SlimVirgin 00:20, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

It is a bit jumbled, I don't think it adds much to the article. Tim Vickers (talk) 00:22, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I added that to explain to the reader that "pain" is a complex subject that has numerous aspects and has distinct and seperate componets that are evaluated and weighed in the planning of animal experimentation and during the operational phase. For example the 1990 Assessment and Control of the Severity of Scientific Procedures on Laboratory Animals, was written to "aid communication between all those concerned with the use and welfare of laboratory animals" and it presents a detailed severity index metric for the operational assessing and controlling of pain and distress in laboratory animal procedures based on numerically assigned evaluations of the following considerations:

1. consciousness,
2. anesthesia,
3. preparation,
4. restraint,
5. duration,
6. tissue sensitivity,
7. organ risk,
8. mortality,
9. pain,
10. distress,
11. deprivation, and
12. frequency.

Operational control of severity considerations include:

1. management practices,
2. psychosocial influences,
3. disease,
4. objective measurement and record keeping,
5. training,
6. procedure design practices,
7. basic husbandry considerations, and
8. planning for emergency and humane end-points for each procedure.

I suppose the data is densely packed, but nowhere else in the article do we present any actual details about what the "on the ground" criteria are concerning pain management in animal testing. I think it is important not to just wave our hands and talk in complete generalities. The source is there for anyone who wishes to expand on or better understand the listed considerations. WAS 4.250 (talk) 21:34, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Lead

I combined some refs in the lead and removed some blue to make it look less frantic. I also combined two pargraphs, and put the sentence "the topic is controversial" (which I changed to highly controversial) at the beginning of those paragraphs. Previously it had been at the start of the third paragraph, which suggested that only that paragraph - the anti-paragraph -- contained the controversial points, whereas it's both the pro and the anti positions that are controversial. SlimVirgin 00:31, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Forgot to say that I also removed the thing about Nobel prizes, because it was really just repeating that these were major advances. SlimVirgin 00:33, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Tim, I don't see the point of saying in the lead that we're not including fruit flies, except in a footnote. We say vertebrates, and we link to what it means. And the lead is a summary of what the article is about, not what it's not about. SlimVirgin 00:35, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

This article is about animal testing, it is not about animal testing in vertebrates. Our coverage of animal testing in invertebrates needs to be expanded, if anything, due to the importance of this group of animals in current science. Tim Vickers (talk) 01:06, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

This article is about animal testing in vertebrates. When people talk of animals, they don't mean fruit flies. SlimVirgin 01:10, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

No, animal experimentation or "animal testing" as we dub it in this article is the use of animals in research. Insects are animals and they are used in research - hence they must be discussed in this article. The use of this inexact term "animal testing" as the title of this article is a constant problem, as noted many times above on this talk page, but since that is what we seem to be stuck with, that is what we have to work with. Tim Vickers (talk) 01:15, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Just looking at toxicology testing alone, there are a wealth of sources on the use of invertebrates in animal testing.

• Lagadic L, Caquet T (1998). "Invertebrates in testing of environmental chemicals: are they alternatives?". Environ. Health Perspect. 106 Suppl 2: 593–611. PMID 9599707.
• deFur PL (2004). "Use and role of invertebrate models in endocrine disruptor research and testing". ILAR J. 45 (4): 484–93. PMID 15454687.
• Williams PL, Anderson GL, Johnstone JL, Nunn AD, Tweedle MF, Wedeking P (2000). "Caenorhabditis elegans as an alternative animal species". J. Toxicol. Environ. Health Part A. 61 (8): 641–7. PMID 11132694.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
• Vogel EW, Graf U, Frei HJ, Nivard MM (1999). "The results of assays in Drosophila as indicators of exposure to carcinogens". IARC Sci. Publ. (146): 427–70. PMID 10353398.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

That is before you examine the importance of invertebrates in pure research, where flies and worms are by far the most important species. Is your argument for excluding invertebrates from this article that you think people don't usually consider flies as animals? Tim Vickers (talk) 01:27, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

My argument is that the word "animal" does not include insects; that the sources who discuss animal testing don't dicuss insects; that the government bodies who regulate animal testing don't regulate the use of insects. We go with the sources on these issues. This article isn't about pure research; it is specifically about the issues surrounding animal testing, and there are no issues surrounding the use of insects. Perhaps there ought to be, but there just aren't. SlimVirgin 01:36, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Tim, regarding your use of primary sources, you need to distinguish between sources that constitute animal research (the studies, the writing up and analysis of the studies), and sources who write about animal testing. It's the latter that are more useful in this article. SlimVirgin 01:39, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

1. Animal - animals are a group of organisms that includes insects. People learn this at school, so I don't think our readers will be unaware of this.
2. The secondary sources I provide above (you will notice they are review articles if you read them) show clearly that sources that discuss "animal testing" and "animal experimentation" do discuss invertebrates.
3. The law is only a small part of this article which is instead discussed at Animal testing regulations.
4. Most importantly, this article is not about "the issues surrounding animal testing" it is about animal testing. This is the core of the problem we are having here - you wish to write about the controversy, not the subject. Tim Vickers (talk) 01:46, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Can you show me a source that discusses animal testing and fruit flies -- not particular studies, or particular uses, but a meta-discussion on the role of the fruit fly in animal testing. Just one will do. SlimVirgin 01:55, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

• Why the fly? - meta-discussion on the role of the fruit fly in animal experimentation.
• Nonmammalian Animal Models for Biomedical Research - Two chapters of this book deal with insects and crustaceans, respectively.
• The Experimental Animal in Biomedical Research - Chapter 1 deals with invertebrates.

You might also find these links interesting:

• Model organisms: The fruit fly - Historical background and current uses.
• Human Use of Non-Human Animals - a Biologist's View Looking at the importance of worms in animal experimentation and even examining the moral implications.
• How useful are animal models of human disease? Talks about both worms and flies.
• Scientific Alternatives to Animal Testing: A Progress Report Mentions flies, worms and fish as being particularly useful.
• WormBook - a guide to everything worm-related.

Couple these with almost one million Google Scholar hits for Drosophila and you have a very notable organism. As I said before, this article isn't about the controversy, it is about the subject. Flies and worms are vital to modern animal experimentation, we can't miss them out, and we probably need to talk about them more. Tim Vickers (talk) 02:27, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Okay, thank you. You're right, and I take it back. I would have liked to read the one that looked at the moral implications (the interscience.wiley.com one), but it said I don't have cookies enabled, though I do. I'll try and fiddle with my browser later on to make it work. But otherwise, please do ahead and mention them in the lead if you want to. :-) SlimVirgin 02:32, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Great, thank you. I have a friend who works on Drosophila, she got very upset and angry when I once "dissed" her organism. Once you've listened to the impassioned defense of "why flies tell us everything we need to know" for half an hour it tends to stick in the memory! :) Tim Vickers (talk) 02:49, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

You simply need to google the title, SV, though unless you have a subscription you will only be able to read the abstract. See also If you want I can try and get you a reprint of the wiley paper. Rockpocket 03:16, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. I'll see what I can do to get it myself first, then maybe I'll ask you.

BTW, I'm hoping to add some material to the pain section later today or tomorrow, as I found quite a good discussion of some of the issues. SlimVirgin 21:37, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Quote

Tim, can you provide a source for "impossible to advance biomedical science without the use of animal subjects ..." The page you linked to doesn't show it. SlimVirgin 22:33, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The specific quote is "At present, it is impossible to advance biomedical science without the use of animal subjects for some aspects of research." Rockpocket 22:38, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Can I ask why the quote was changed? No knowledgeable organization would say it is "impossible to advance biomedical science without the use of animal subjects." SlimVirgin 22:39, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

And this is a quote from the Institute for Laboratory Animal Research, not the United States National Academy of Sciences? SlimVirgin 22:42, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The ILAR "functions as a component of the National Academies to provide independent, objective advice to the federal government, the international biomedical research community, and the public." Basically it is the arm of the National Academy that deals with animal testing. Rockpocket 22:52, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. We should attribute the quote directly to them, in that case. SlimVirgin 22:53, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

We don't have an article for them, and one should probably redirect to the academies page. The quote comes from a report from the National Academies. As with most of their reports, are prepared by one of their offices (in this case, the ILAR) Rockpocket 23:01, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

If we say "A National Academies of Sciences report" then we can link to the NAS article. Tim Vickers (talk) 23:09, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

"Some people also claim that it is unnecessary for animals to be used as research subjects and that computer or other nonanimal models could be used instead. In some cases this is true, and scientists strive to use computer models and other nonanimal methods whenever possible; however, many of the interactions that occur between molecules, cells, tissues, organs, organisms, and the environment are too complex for even the most sophisticated of computers to model. At present, it is impossible to advance biomedical science without the use of animal subjects for some aspects of research." - edit conflict, its page 1 and 2. The longer quote might be better, what do people think? Tim Vickers (talk) 22:41, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Can you say why you changed it? -- because you changed its meaning too.

Also, who does this quote actually orginate with? See above. SlimVirgin 22:43, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Tim, please provide a link showing where you got this -- a direct link to the page it is on. SlimVirgin 22:44, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Googling "At present, it is impossible to advance biomedical science without the use of animal subjects for some aspects of research." yeilded http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10733&page=1 Half is at the bottom and the other part is I assume on page 2 which Tim provided as his source above. WAS 4.250 (talk) 23:27, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

NAS is one of the most authoritative sources you could possibly find on the subject, so I replaced a less-notable and important group with an opinion from one of the premier scientific organisations in he world. Tim Vickers (talk) 22:57, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Just throwing this out there. If this is problematic, we could always use the Royal Society (they take a slightly different tone):

• "We have all benefited immensely from scientific research involving animals. From antibiotics and insulin to blood transfusions and treatments for cancer or HIV, virtually every medical achievement in the past century has depended directly or indirectly on research on animals. The same is true for veterinary medicine. Modern biology, with all its contributions to the well-being of society, is heavily dependent on research on animals."

• "Humans have benefited immensely from scientific research involving animals, with virtually every medical achievement in the past century reliant on the use of animals in some way. Developments in the treatment of diabetes, leukaemia and heart surgery transplants, amongst others, have been made possible through the use of animals in scientific research. The majority of the scientific community consider that the benefits that have been provided by the use of animals in research justify this use."

Rockpocket 23:17, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm, I'd hate to choose between the two! Both are extremely authoritative, but since most of are readership are probably Americans, I'd be tempted to cater for parochialism. Especially since most people who have heard of the Royal Society will have probably have heard of the US-NAS, but possibly not the other way around? Tim Vickers (talk) 23:21, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Its just the the ILAR doesn't mean much to the average reader, unless you are aware it is an office of the NA. The alternative, I guess, is linking it and redirecting the ILAR page to the NAS. Which seems a bit weaselly. If we are going to do that we may as well just call it a NAS report. Rockpocket 23:25, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

It's from a book published by the ILAR, I thought. SlimVirgin 23:26, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

"Science, Medicine, and Animals and the Teacher's Guide were written by the Institute for Laboratory Animal Research and published by the National Research Council of the National Academies." since the ILAR is "The Institute for Laboratory Animal Research (ILAR) is a program unit in The Division on Earth and Life Studies (DELS) of the National Academies." (see NAS organisational chart. So it was written by an organisation that is part of the US-NAS and published by the Academy. I can't see what is wrong with describing the report as "A National Academies of Sciences report" Tim Vickers (talk) 23:35, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

You know what is wrong with it. First, it's not accurate. It was written by the ILAR, period. That they are part of this, or part of that, is irrelevant. Secondly, you want to name the umbrella organization because it will sound less POV. If it suited your POV, you'd be strongly arguing in favor of naming the original source. SlimVirgin 23:45, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Since almost all of our readers won't know that the ILAR are part of the National Academies, I took Rockpocket's excellent suggestion and substituted the Royal Society report instead. It is just as authoritiative, and hopefully there won't be any confusion about authorship. Tim Vickers (talk) 00:04, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Question about the quote; please answer

Tim, can you please answer the question about why you changed the quote? This is the kind of thing that poisons these pages and turns them needlessly into battlefields, so I would really like to pin it down. Do you honestly see no significant distinction between: "it is impossible to advance biomedical science without the use of animal subjects," and "At present, it is impossible to advance biomedical science without the use of animal subjects for some aspects of research"? SlimVirgin 23:23, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The two have the same meaning, since it is written in the present tense. It would change the meaning to say ""it has been impossible" or "It will be impossible" but saying "it is impossible" and "At present, it is impossible" means precisely the same thing. For the extension of the quote I thought that if it is "impossible to advance biomedical science without the use of animals" whether this use is wide or narrow doesn't change the statement that it is impossible to do this without using animals. That interpretation is a bit less clear though, so you might be right that shortening that end of the quote was unwise. Tim Vickers (talk) 23:28, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

"At present, it is impossible" does not mean the same as "it is impossible." It is impossible for 2 plus 2 to equal 4, and not only at present. Also, their claim that it is impossible for some aspects of research is clearly relevant, because even they concede that it is not currently impossible for all aspects of research.

Can you please in future stick very closely to what the sources say? There's no need to quote all the time, but they must be represented accurately, so that they would look at what you wrote, and would agree that they had said that thing.

All that's happening at the moment is that, because I know sources are not being represented well, I don't trust your edits, so I feel I have to check everything. This leads to endless back and forth between us, poisons this page, and makes us distrust each other. It would be great if I could know I didn't have to check your edits when I see your name crop up. Even if I disagree with something, I'm still able to recognize it as a quality edit (and welcome it), and similarly I can recognize a bad edit even if I agree with it (and don't welcome it). These disagreements I have with you have nothing to do with POV. SlimVirgin 23:42, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Quote changed again

The previous quote was good, because it's the first time we've actually had anything explanatory in the lead. It cited the source as saying: "'t present, it is impossible to advance biomedical science without the use of animal subjects for some aspects of research,' because interactions between molecules, cells, tissues, organs, organisms, and the environment are too complex for even very sophisticated computers to model."

The current quote goes back to say nothing, and seems to have been changed only to make the source sound more respectable, rather than with the aim of giving the reader information. SlimVirgin 00:51, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

That's a good point. Your summary of the US-NAS report was quite informative. We can have both, without gaining any length, which fits quite well. Tim Vickers (talk) 01:48, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Animal welfare groups

Thinking about the notability of the groups we quote in the lead, I think WP:UNDUE should really apply here. Why are the opinions of the larger Animal welfare groups not cited. The US Humane society and the RSPCA are obvious examples. Tim Vickers (talk) 01:48, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

How would their views be any different? SlimVirgin 02:04, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Americans For Medical Advancement doesn't seem a very notable group. Tim Vickers (talk) 02:02, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Looking at what the mainstream animal welfare groups say, their statements appear more balanced and less extreme than those of PETA and Americans For Medical Advancement. Describing the mainstream scientific view, while only describing the extremist animal welfare group position - and omitting the mainstream animal welfare groups statements - seems to be giving undue weight to a minority opinion. Tim Vickers (talk) 02:40, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

• "As do most scientists, The HSUS advocates an end to the use of animals in research and testing that is harmful to the animals. Accordingly, we strive to decrease and eventually eliminate harm to animals used for these purposes." HSUS Statement on Animals in Biomedical Research, Testing, and Education
• "The RSPCA adopts a constructive and practical approach, judging every issue individually, critically questioning the necessity and justification for animal use and striving to reduce the conflict between animals and science wherever possible." RSPCA Research animals home - Research animals

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, Tim. All opponents of animal research will argue at least one of the following: that it's unnecessary, cruel, poor scientific practice, never reliably predictive of human metabolic and physiological specificities, poorly regulated, that the costs outweigh the alleged benefits, or that animals have an intrinsic right not to be used for experimentation.

Some argue all of these points; others focus on particular issues. That's why it was written this way. SlimVirgin 02:57, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I tried adding the RSPCA quote to show the range of opinion on this topic amongst the mainstream animal welfare groups. It seemed the less woolly of the two, and as this is certainly one of the most important of such groups, its nuanced position is very important. Tim Vickers (talk) 03:03, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it opposes animal testing, so please don't add it among the opposition opinions, unless you can find a clear statement that it does. SlimVirgin 03:10, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

The article, and the lead, should summarise not only opposition to animal testing, but the positions of each notable group of people involved in the issue. The opinions of the more extreme abolitionist groups such as PETA should certainly be discussed in the article, but they should not be given undue weight. Both the RSPCA and the US-HS have clear positions on the issue, and these are very large and important groups of people. To cite Americans For Medical Advancement, which appears to be a one-man organisation, and ignore the largest animal welfare groups in the world, is inconsistent with our policies. Tim Vickers (talk) 03:16, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Crum375, how good to see you again. You always seem to turn up to help when we are having difficulties. What are your thoughts on this matter? Tim Vickers (talk) 03:18, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Tim, I hope you are being sincere. It seems to me that given the space constraints in the lead, we need to focus on just the two sides: pros and cons. The other, less clearly positioned groups can be detailed in the article body if needed. Hence the Welfare groups are not appropriate, as they don't add critical information. Crum375 (talk) 03:24, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

That's an interesting perspective, Crum375, but what do you think about my concern that giving prominence to the smaller and more extreme groups doesn't fit our policy on undue weight? That the largest animal welfare groups do not oppose animal testing on principle seems a very important piece of information. Tim Vickers (talk) 03:30, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

It is only the most notable welfare group in the UK; not even clearly the largest. It's not clear that they don't oppose animal testing, Tim. And it's not clear that they do. They don't really have a position because they don't have much to do with the subject, unlike the specialist groups. So it's odd that you would want to place them in the lead. SlimVirgin 03:33, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

(ec) The issue is controversy, and to describe it in a summary fashion it is best to mention the opposing sides and their views. That there may be huge amounts of people with intermediate views does not shed light on the controversy. Crum375 (talk) 03:36, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that is right, Crum375, the subject of the Animal testing article is not "controversy", that would be the subject of the Animal testing controversy article. Here, we need to summarise for the reader the positions of the notable groups that have taken a position on the issue. Saying some support, some oppose in some cases, and some oppose in all cases, gives a good idea of the actual thoughts of the organisations involved, rather than presenting this incorrectly as a black-and-white issue. Tim Vickers (talk) 03:44, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

The RSPCA isn't a notable group involved in animal testing. They have almost nothing to do with it, and it's not even clear what their position is. The controversy paragraph needs to summarize the controversy, obviously, which is arguments in favor, arguments against, in brief. By all means remove American thingies -- nothing hangs on their inclusion. SlimVirgin 03:22, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I removed them, the very definition of fringe! Since both organisations have position papers and large areas of their website devoted to the issue, they obviously have a view on the matter. What would you summarise this as, SV, reading the material I linked to above? We should be able to summarise this in a sentence or two. Tim Vickers (talk) 03:38, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

The views in the final sentence of the lead need to be attributed. How about:

Animal testing is a controversial issue. Scientific societies such as The Royal Society support animal testing, arguing that is has been valuable in the past and remains necessary for some areas of current research. Some animal welfare groups, such as the RSPCA and the US humane society, aim for the eventual removal of animal testing and try to ensure that research is as humane as possible. Other groups, such as PETA, call for an immediate end to such research, arguing variously that it is cruel, poor scientific practice, never reliably predictive of human metabolic and physiological specificities, poorly regulated, that the costs outweigh the alleged benefits, or that animals have an intrinsic right not to be used for experimentation."

Comments? Tim Vickers (talk) 16:47, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Intro

The "controversy" section only constitutes about 25% of the article, but references to the controversy currently occupy 50% of the intro. Also, the intro doesn't really summarize the "Reasearch classification" section even though it is a major portion of the article. Cla68 (talk) 02:38, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I think you're right, the lead does a poor job of summarising the article as a whole. Tim Vickers (talk) 02:40, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I would say that an article of this length could probably support a four paragraph intro. The first paragraph could include the standard lead-in and the definition of animal testing, the second history and animals used, the third research classification, and the fourth controversy. Cla68 (talk) 02:49, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Animals used could also go in the first paragraph, I think, leaving the second paragraph completely to history. Cla68 (talk) 02:52, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

And what brings you to this article, Cla68? SlimVirgin 02:52, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Have you forgotten the 3RR accusation that drew everyone's attention to this article? I've been watching since then, and have been hoping for over a month that the massive External link farm would be pruned per WP:EL, WP:NOT soon; it's one of the worst I've seen. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:59, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

It just has been pruned. I aim to start looking at the remainder to make sure they're relevant and still working. But again, Sandy, what brings you here? Why the sudden interest? SlimVirgin 03:08, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

As I just said (above), I've been following this article since it was brought to my attention on December 17 via a surprising 3RR warning to Tim (whose talk page I have had watched for a very long time). Since I just saw a partial prune (finally) of a massive external link farm, it seemed a good time to ask that the job be finished. I found several Dmoz categories that could be used in place of the external link farm, but I'm not sure which is best to use, as there are several; you might want to do a DMOZ search, and use the DMOZ cat in place of all the external links, which is a technique used on many medical articles to avoid the WP:NOT a support group issue. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:14, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

For example, see the External links at Asperger syndrome. The article is comprehensive, and since DMOZ contains all the support group links that were always being added, we were able to prune them all by linking to DMOZ instead. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:23, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I did ask on AN/I a while ago that more people put this article on their watchlists, since this is an area where a diverse set of opinions is very valuable in correcting each editors' inherent POV. I'm pleased to see so many people are interested. Tim Vickers (talk) 03:12, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

But what has happened instead is that two people who oppose me over other issues have turned up, one of whom regularly wikistalks me, neither of whom has edited this article before, and neither of whom has any specialist knowledge. I don't really see that as helpful, Tim. In fact, it looks like an attempt simply to get some numbers on your side, which was the kind of attitude I was hoping we could move away from. SlimVirgin 03:16, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Your question has been answered, please stop the conspiracy theories. No one owns this article, and many people have watched this article since the 3RR accusation. I edit across a *very* broad range of medical articles (this is a medical article); I don't know a thing about Tuberculosis, but that didn't stop me from working with Tim to keep it featured, because I do know how to edit medical articles. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:23, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Don't start up here, Sandy. This is not a medical article. This is about animal research, and requires very specific knowledge. It certainly isn't helped by enemies arriving with insults about conspiracy theories. Or do you feel that this exchange is helping the article?

Tim, I think we need mediation if this is the kind of atmosphere you want to edit in. SlimVirgin 03:25, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

That seems a bit of an overreaction to my suggestion that DMOZ can be used to help prune the external link farm. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:31, 30 January 2008 (UTC) Also, would you consider please rephrasing your use of the word "enemies" above? I don't consider myself an enemy of anyone; are you saying you consider me an enemy? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:37, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

It's a reaction to you turning up here, an article you've never edited before, after our situation over Zeraeph. It's a reaction to you turning up with Cla68, who has been regularly wikistalking me for what must be about a year, and who has never edited here before either. Yet here you both are within seven minutes of each another. Please forgive me my conspiracy theory. SlimVirgin 03:37, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

For goodness sakes. I've had to cover my eyes for six weeks, every time I've looked at the worst external link farm I've ever seen, you just started to prune it, so I offered a suggestion. I'll be happy to be quiet now if my presence bothers you so, but please strike the "enemy" comment, unless you consider me an enemy. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:40, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry you feel that way, more input from the community is always helpful in solving problems. For example, Crum375 has just appeared, who is always a useful editor to have around. Tim Vickers (talk) 03:22, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

More input from people who know about the subject is helpful. How does it help us to have input from people who don't? SlimVirgin 03:23, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Please stick to content and avoid personalizing issues; my suggestions to use DMOZ to help trim the external link farm is above. It's been troubling me for six weeks, since I first saw this article on Dec. 17. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:25, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

What's DMOZ? Tim Vickers (talk) 03:27, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

An internet directory (the internet directory). Look at the external links in Asperger syndrome, autism, Tuberculosis, Tourette syndrome probably any medical article I've worked on. It solves a whole lot of WP:NOT WP:EL external link farm issues. Often, there is more than one DMOZ cat that can be used. I was going to do that back in December, but there are several potential cats, so it's best someone else figure out which to use. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:29, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Would it be possible to add several categories? Crum375, what do you think of this idea? It could help make that section more manageable. Tim Vickers (talk) 03:32, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you can add as many DMOZ categories as you need. For example, on many medical articles, I add the main DMOZ category, as well as the Support group category. That helps get around the WP:NOT a support group problem that always occurs on medical articles, where everyone wants to add their group. Look at Tourette syndrome; I think I have both there. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:35, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

SlimVirgin, I don't think I've ever edited the same content article that you were editing before, so I don't understand your accusation either. I think the use of such a label is unfortunate and counterproductive. If you think I'm "wikistalking" you (whatever that really means), I invite you to bring it up on the appropriate forum and we can exhaustively discuss each other's behavior and ethics. My attention was also drawn to this article because of the 3RR warning you gave Tim on his talk page and I've been watching it for some time. In the past I've also gotten involved in other controversial subjects, including Global Warming, Sea of Japan, and Gary Weiss. Anyway, back to my original thought...the intro as written doesn't presently match the article that follows below it. Cla68 (talk) 04:02, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

DMOZ proposal

How about replacing all the external links with:

• Animal Experiments - Vivisection
• Animal Experiments - Vivisection: Organizations
• Animal Experiments - Vivisection: Government

Comments? Tim Vickers (talk) 03:50, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I personally like to have a few well chosen external links (if needed at all) vs. big link farms of any kind. Crum375 (talk) 03:53, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

The problem with using DMOZ that I've seen on other articles is that these lists can be highly POV, and we don't control the content. They're usually not used for that reason on contentious pages. The EL guideline used to say that, but perhaps it's been changed. In any event, it's not a good idea for a subject like this. SlimVirgin 03:57, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Primary sources

Can I ask again that we stop using primary sources so much? What's happening is that people are saying "primates are used to study visual disorder," and are linking to one paper in which they were so used. But if we were to link to every paper about studies that had used a non-human primate, we would need to open our own wiki. Therefore, it's better to use secondary sources who give an overview, discussing how they're used, how many, mostly in what areas etc. Otherwise, we're effectively engaged in OR, randomly picking research papers to satisfy the sourcing requirements, without really looking to see if what they say is directly relevant. SlimVirgin 02:51, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

On that note, the pure research section may require resourcing, since there are a number of primary references used there. I'm a little busy at the the moment, but I'd be happy to tackle that over the next week or so. Rockpocket 03:12, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I think both those sections (pure and applied) need to be rewritten, but there's no rush, obviously. I'm not sure I'm in a position to do it properly, so I hesitate to try. SlimVirgin 03:13, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I could write pages on those subjects, but the area is so incredibly diverse, its near impossible to do anything other than explain what the type of research is and then give a few example in the space we have here. It would be a bit like describing physics or chemistry in paragraph. Rockpocket 03:23, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Are there specific differences in the kinds of animals used, or the way they're used? If there aren't, I wonder if it's even worth highlighting the distinction. SlimVirgin 03:30, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Not really. I mean one could generalize — non-rodent mammals are perhaps more likely to be used in applied research than pure research, for example. I'm just not sure of a better way to give a flavor of what animal testing actually is, from a practical perspective, than select one or two disciplines with examples. If some one can come up with any ideas, then I'm very willing to do what I can to help. Rockpocket 06:23, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

That section is still stuffed with non-review references. I made a start replacing some of them a while ago, but there are a lot left to deal with. The Royal Society and National Academies reports might be particularly good sources for this section, although a bit focused on the historical aspects. Tim Vickers (talk) 16:24, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm pretty confident I can replace most of the primary sources with appropriate review articles. I'll try and complete it by the weekend. The, I guess, we can see where the text can be improved. Rockpocket 18:12, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Request for Mediation

A Request for Mediation on this article has been opened here. Cla68 (talk) 04:18, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Basic problem

As I see it, the problem with this article is that, if someone who knew nothing about animal testing were to read it, they wouldn't know much more once they'd finished, because most of it is waffle. What can we do about that? SlimVirgin 05:06, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

We need to focus on the subject, not the controversy. Easy to say, hard to do. Tim Vickers (talk) 05:10, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

The two can't and should not be separated. I was reading a very good book last night about this, written by a specialist (pro-testing), who writes about researchers' attempts to "scientize" the subject, as though living beings were not involved. He writes about how they carefully choose certain language, all the issues we have seen on this page. I would have added some of it tonight, but as usual I was too busy arguing petty non-issues with you. I don't know where you find the time or energy to engage like this, Tim, I really don't. We are supposed to be writing articles. SlimVirgin 05:13, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I think we need to focus on what secondary sources say about Animal Testing. This is not an Animal Testing How-to — it's what reliable secondary sources have published about the topic. Crum375 (talk) 05:17, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Those two points of view are the core of the problem. I see this article as primarily about "animal testing" - history, methods, aims, and results - with the controversy as one sub-section no more important then any other. In contrast, It seems to me that for you the controversy is the subject, and everything else is seen in the light of that issue. I would recommend this question as the core subject for an RfC. Tim Vickers (talk) 05:19, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflit with Tim as always) Crum, that's exactly right, but for some reason it's impossible to get this across. We don't fill the article on the Arab-Israeli situation with press releases from both sides. We fill it with newspaper articles, books, and scholarly papers about the conflict, written by people on all sides who offer an overview. That doesn't mean that primary sources can't sometimes be used too, but we shouldn't have whole sections, or key issues, relying on them. SlimVirgin 05:23, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Tim, once again you miss the point. You don't produce secondary sources about animal testing either, never mind about the controversy. You rely on your own interpretation of primary sources, but you are not an expert on animal testing. We want to hear expert views about the primary sources, not yours, with respect. SlimVirgin 05:24, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

As a general point, Misplaced Pages articles are not there to give you everything under the sun having to do with the given topic, but what the secondary sources have published about it, from the top level view. Crum375 (talk) 05:31, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Here is an analogy. Imagine we were writing an article about knitting. Tim is giving us the equivalent of:

Blue pullovers are knitted in the UK.<ref>"Knitting pattern for a blue pullover" by Mrs. Smith of the UK.</ref> Pink cardigans are also knitted there.<ref>"Knitting pattern for a pink cardigan" by Mrs. Jones of the UK.</ref>

That's OR, uninformative, and not what's wanted. Misplaced Pages articles should be like this:

Professor Needle of Knotingham University's Department of Popular Pastimes reports that ten thousand blue pullovers were knitted in the UK last year, overtaking the previously more popular pink cardigan.<ref>''Knitting in the British Isles from 2001 to 2008'' by Professor Needle.</ref>

Tim, do you see the difference? SlimVirgin 05:52, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Indeed I do, which is why I try to use peer-reviewed academic reviews as sources. Such as diff 1, diff 2 diff 3, diff 4. Hopefully much more of the article will be sourced to such highly reliable sources in the future. Tim Vickers (talk) 16:17, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

The pain section needs help

The pain section needs help. I suggest:

Pain is a complex subject that has numerous aspects and has distinct and seperate componets that are evaluated and weighed in the planning of animal experimentation and during the operational phase. For example the 1990 Assessment and Control of the Severity of Scientific Procedures on Laboratory Animals, was written to "aid communication between all those concerned with the use and welfare of laboratory animals" and it presents a detailed severity index metric for the operational assessing and controlling of pain and distress in laboratory animal procedures based on numerically assigned evaluations of the following considerations:

1. consciousness,
2. anesthesia,
3. preparation,
4. restraint,
5. duration,
6. tissue sensitivity,
7. organ risk,
8. mortality,
9. pain,
10. distress,
11. deprivation, and
12. frequency.

Operational control of severity considerations include:

1. management practices,
2. psychosocial influences,
3. disease,
4. objective measurement and record keeping,
5. training,
6. procedure design practices,
7. basic husbandry considerations, and
8. planning for emergency and humane end-points for each procedure.

I suppose the data is densely packed, but nowhere else in the article do we present any actual details about what the "on the ground" criteria are concerning pain management in animal testing. I think it is important not to just wave our hands and talk in complete generalities. The source is there for anyone who wishes to expand on or better understand the listed considerations. WAS 4.250 (talk) 17:12, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm in the process of expanding that section, as I said above. SlimVirgin 18:08, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, and I was pleased to read that. I'm hoping for some specifics, and the above was the best I was able to come up with. You appear to be indicating you intend to come up with something better. What exactly is done to limit pain? is the question I want answered. I hope you find further material we can use. By the way, the above source is part of a very large assemblage of sources gathered specifically to teach about this and related subjects. http://oslovet.veths.no/fag.aspx?fag=60 seems authoritative and NPOV with regard to both ethics and science. But you probably already know of other equally good sources. I'm eager to see what you come up with, but if there is too much delay, I'll just put in the above until someone comes up with something better. WAS 4.250 (talk) 18:40, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Not much is done to limit pain, and the source explains why. He is a pro-testing source, so it's interesting to read. He doesn't defend the practice, but also doesn't attack it with invective, so you feel as though you're being educated rather than fed propaganda. SlimVirgin 19:01, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

"Not much is done to limit pain" is the exact opposite what what reliable published sources say. Perhaps you mean to say that "Not enough is done to limit pain". Using flies instead of people to advance scientific knowledge is doing something to limit pain. Do you not understand that the information you removed above explains in detail how pain is in fact limited and the specific considerations used in making sure that pain is the minimum necessary to achieve the specific goals of the experiment being evaluated and/or operated? Or did you delete it because you disagree that it is accurate. You said you deleted it because "it does not say anything". I thought you just did not understand it. Are you saying it does not say anything you want to hear? I'm confused. Do you have evidence this is not a reliable source? Or is the evidence that it says something you disagree with? Help me out here. What's going on? WAS 4.250 (talk) 19:41, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I removed it because it doesn't say anything. Words without meaning. Nothing anyone could or would ever read. Tell me in your own words what this sentence means: "It presents a detailed severity index metric for the operational assessing and controlling of pain and distress in laboratory animal procedures based on numerically assigned evaluations of organ risk." No handwaving please. Imagine you were writing it for the simple English Misplaced Pages, and that your life depended on your readers understanding the sentence. What would the translation be?

It's interesting that you're criticizing what I'm about to write before I've even written it. That's a new one even for this page. SlimVirgin 20:04, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

If you are interested in mainstream press sources, this might be useful. Rockpocket 20:10, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, that's very helpful. I was about to add a section on euthanasis, but I only had one good source. SlimVirgin 23:20, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

""It presents a detailed severity index metric for the operational assessing and controlling of pain and distress in laboratory animal procedures based on numerically assigned evaluations of organ risk." - is equal to - "It presents a detailed and practical way for assessing and controlling pain. This is based on seeing which organ is involved, and then referring to a scale that grades how painful manipulations of this organ usually are." Tim Vickers (talk) 21:40, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Tim, but I asked WAS, because I wanted to know whether he understood what he proposed to add to the article. But you see how stupefying that kind of writing is. And even though your translation appears on the surface to be much clearer, what does it actually say? What is the detailed and practical way of assessing and controlling pain? How can painful manipulations of an organ translate to a scale? These handwaving summaries miss the point that none of these issues are understood by anyone, not by researchers, not by medical doctors, and not by philosophers. Whenever we add anything like this, we have to show the reader that we're familiar with the background, and not just cut and paste material that we don't understand ourselves. Otherwise the reader will be just as puzzled at the end of the sentence as she was at the start of it.

Here is another example of dense writing: "Scientists studying mechanisms of evolution use a number of animal species, including mosquitos, sticklebacks, and lampreys, because of their niche physiology, morphology, ecology, or phylogeny."

Again, for the simple English Misplaced Pages, what does it mean? SlimVirgin 23:18, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Please don't refuse sources because you don't like the style of English that they use. A reliable source is a reliable source. Selectively refusing sources might give the appearance of POV-pushing, which is something that should be avoided. Cla68 (talk) 23:33, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Cla, if you have something productive to add to the discussion, please do so. To explain to a veteran editor, who has significantly contributed to many of Misplaced Pages's existing content policies, what a source is, or how to use it, can be viewed by some as trolling. Crum375 (talk) 23:45, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

The issue here is on using that source for the pain section. WAS and Tim appear to believe that it is reliable and can be used. Slim apparently doesn't like the way it's written, but isn't addressing whether it is a reliable source. That's the discussion here, not whether anyone of us is "trolling". Please keep comments here related to the content of the article and the sources used and how they are used. Cla68 (talk) 23:55, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Now, back to the article discussion...I join WAS and Tim in supporting that source under discussion as a reliable source that can be used for the Pain section in the article. Cla68 (talk) 23:57, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

1. ^ Animals in product testing", National Anti-Vivisection Society.
2. Species Used in Research: Rabbit
3. Assessment and Control of the Severity of Scientific Procedures an Laboratory animals written by the Laboratory Animal Science Association Working Party and republished at the 200-page compendium in laboratory animal science by the Norwegian School of Veterinary Science Laboratory Animal Unit
4. Assessment and Control of the Severity of Scientific Procedures an Laboratory animals written by the Laboratory Animal Science Association Working Party and republished at the 200-page compendium in laboratory animal science by the Norwegian School of Veterinary Science Laboratory Animal Unit

• B-Class Animal rights articles
• Top-importance Animal rights articles
• WikiProject Animal rights articles
• Misplaced Pages controversial topics