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Revision as of 20:42, 14 July 2005

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

Please keep in mind the rules about personal attacks have recently changed. In particular, check out Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks and Misplaced Pages:Remove personal attacks. Samboy 23:19, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Old discussion moved to Talk:Micronation/Archive1 Samboy 23:19, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Um, one question I don't see has been answered is why, if the definition of 'micronation' applies only to fictional nations, are nations which once had real existence also included here? Shouldn't such be considered microstates, instead? - Mike Lorrey 19:05 1/27/05 EST

As far as I can see, the definition doesn't simply apply to fictional nations. In fact, entirely fictional nations seem to be a distinct minority here. The definition seems more concerned with a nation existing but remaining unrecognized. --Centauri 00:10, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

PoV template

Looking at the Talk archive and the page History, it looks as though the person insisting on the inclusion of the template has disappeared. If anyone who is actually involved in editing the page thinks that it should be replaced, then fine — but there didn't seeem to be much point leaving it there to disfigure the page.

By the way, if the anon. user who accused me of 'vandalism' for changing 'territory' for 'land' would like to explain instead of indulging in edit-summary insults (and 'retaliating' by editing my user page), we might get somewhere). Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 13:06, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Apparently the anon user isn't interested in discussion or politeness, only in insisting on an unexplained edit. The difference concerns whether land that's part of a sovereign country, and that was in use by another country's military, is to be described as 'land' or as 'territory'. I take the latter (and the dctionary backs me up here) to involve a political dimension that the former lacks, hence my preference for 'land'. If there's an argument against that, I'd be happy to hear and consider it. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 13:56, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It is very likely that the "anonymous vandal" is the twice-banned abusive crank editor Wik, aka Gzornenplatz, who was the one responsible for slapping the spurious dispute notice on this page in the first place. His attempts at editing can now simply be reverted as a matter of course. --Gene_poole 21:57, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation; I'll be aware in future. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:54, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

No,I AM NOT A VANDAL!As i explained by the empiere of Moravia article,simply seek out the folowing page: http://www.kingnicholas.com/ read the latest news posted on 13th may and then click on the "as follows" icon where you will find that a Micronation that YOU recognised as such (The Copeman Empiere) has recognised "The Empiere of Moravia" in their response,from witch i quote: "I certainly see no problem in recognising your empire's existence." To the "uninterested in discussion" bit...i had other wories with the actual article and its votes for deletion(i mean [[Empiere of Moravia[[ and Self-proclaimed Emperors of Moravia and thei "government" where on boath i stated the former information of "recognition" Your Tomislav I. or a number i simply cant remember.

This is (at least it tries) to be serious encyclopedia. You may try Uncyclopedia, perhaps you will feel better there. And please use four tildas ~~~~ to sign your comments. Pavel Vozenilek 16:18, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Animal Farm

Centauri, I'm curious to know why you think that Animal Farm is not a Micronation. In the category of Exercises in fantasy or creative fiction, it is arguably the best known Micronation. Certainly more so than any of the other examples we've noted. Bollar 13:58, May 25, 2005 (UTC)

"Animal Farm" is no more a micronation than "Lord of the Rings", "Star Wars", "Star Trek", "Harry Potter", "Alice in Wonderland", "Narnia" or any other imaginary realm in literature or creative fiction is a micronation. The definition and examples given suggest that the micronations listed are unique entities in their own right - created as specific self-sustaining projects - and not simply the imaginary settings for stories. There is a separate article on imaginary countries, and if anwhere, Animal Farm belongs there. The 2 concepts are distinct and are only indirectly related. --Centauri 03:39, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

dablink

This article is about small "nations" that are not recognized by any world government. For information on countries that are legitimately recognized, but are geographically tiny ...

The text I cut looks like a disambiguation notice. But it actually creates or exploits ambiguity. It's a sneaky way of legitimizisg micronations by confusing them with microstates - while pretending not to. This is disruptive to Misplaced Pages.

This is an encyclopedia, not a playground. Let's make it quite clear what the micronation movement is about, without endorsing (or ridiculing) it. Uncle Ed July 8, 2005 22:02 (UTC)

Conflict of Interest

I am removing the link to Empire of Atlantium on this page because the users who add the link are members of this Empire, or know members well enough to allow them to use their Misplaced Pages account. This is a conflict of interest (especially since the members of Atlantium also delete links to other micronations), so I am removing the link until another known Misplaced Pages editor feels it is appropriate to mention them. Samboy 17:41, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I am restoring the links that have been removed by Samboy because they are important to the topic, particularly as they describe a somewhat unique event that is documented in external sources (and which is featured in a BBC television series, no less), which have been properly cited as such. I also note that Samboy appears to have a personal conflict of interest on the subject of micronations due to past conflicts with other editors, which seems to be biasing him against selected content. --Centauri 23:26, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Samboy that this "Atlantium" self-promotion is inappropriate. The whole detailed description of a single, not particularly notable exhibition seems to serve no other purpose than to get a mention of "Atlantium" in the article. NoPuzzleStranger 14:38, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

I fail to see the notability of this event and suggest the entire paragraph be deleted. Bollar 00:18, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

The first major exhibition about micronations, held on both sides of the Atlantic and filmed by the BBC as part of a nationally-broadcast TV series is certainly notable enough to belong in Misplaced Pages's article on micronations.--Centauri 00:37, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

The fact that there was a TV documentary on micronations, isn't, in inself, notable. Nor does it make the participants notable. Even the fact that a few micronations gathered doesn't seem notable. Perhaps something was discussed or revealed that was notable? Hard to say since the program hasn't aired yet.

The fact that it has never happened before is notable. In fact, there is no possible way for it to be not notable. --Centauri 01:10, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

I don't see how the "first TV documentary" or "first exhibition" about anything is automatically notable. All the time documentaries or exhibitions are made about the most trivial, unencyclopedic things. And I wouldn't even insist on removing all mention of the exhibition; however, the list of the specific micronations involved is surely not necessary and your insistence on including it just shows your intent to promote your own "empire". NoPuzzleStranger 01:24, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

The issue here in terms of notability is that Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox. In particular, Misplaced Pages is not a place for self-promotion. This is why I do not edit the article on my open-source project and why people involved with the Empire of Atlantium, IMHO, shouldn't be trying to link to the article from other pages. Samboy 03:55, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

And what has any of that got to do with me, or anyone else here, for that matter? --Centauri 04:07, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

I didn't want to bring it up, but this evidence indicates that you share an account with the founder of the Empire of Atlantium Samboy 04:49, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Can I suggest you look up Occam's Razor? That George Cruickshank has been assisting me with my research for a period of some months now is a matter of public record. That on one occasion he has used the same laptop as me, unwittingly logged in as me, to access Misplaced Pages is, as you've shown, also a matter of public record. However, to suggest on that basis that I am a member or sympathiser of his micronation is fanciful speculation to say the least. I've also interviewed Prince Leonard of Hutt River Province, Prince Peter of the Principality of United Oceania, Tom Barnes from the Independent State of Rainbow Creek and numerous other Australian micronationalists; by your reasoning this should preclude me from contributing to these topics as well - which is plainly a ridiculous proposition - unless of course your actual motivation is to prevent the inclusion in Misplaced Pages of information on subjects that you are on record as expressing extreme personal distaste for. --Centauri 05:21, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

If you don't see how a unique event about a subject that is of obvious broad public interest (if judging by the level of editing activity on this and similar pages over the past few years is anything to go by - and it is), then I can't really help you. I notice that you seem to have a bit of a history with problems of that nature. --Centauri 01:34, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Broad public interest? You have got to be kidding. No one cares about "micronations". The level of editing activity here is due to revert wars involving a few (well, mostly yourself) POV editors who try to promote their own "micronation" either directly or indirectly by promoting the concept itself, and a few NPOV editors who try to stem that tide. NoPuzzleStranger 01:40, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

I don't suppose you have any actual evidence to support that eccentric rant, do you? --Centauri 01:46, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

"Broad public interest". NoPuzzleStranger 01:51, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

Is 34,700 broad enough for you? --Centauri 01:55, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Google proper does not reflect "public interest", or at least 34,700 is not enough by far. Any individual micronation can produce thousands of hits about itself, and it adds up. Google News, however, shows if the public really cares about something, since you can't easily force your own propaganda into there. NoPuzzleStranger 02:00, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

Of course. It's all part of the grand micronation conspiracy to take over the world - or failing that, Misplaced Pages. And it's not just the micronations either! The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, who no one cares about, the Mauryan Empire, who no one cares about, and those shifty-eyed Carchemish-promoters who no one cares about are all using Misplaced Pages to push their secret agendas too. It's a scandal, I tell you! --Centauri 02:06, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Centauri, thank you for being open about your connection to the micronations movement. I am also open about my leadership in the Unification Church.

You might not be aware of how an apparent conflict of interest can affect one's standing in various situations. I studied this as part of an ethics course, when I was in the US Army.

If I recall the textbook correctly (after 20 years!), it said:

"An officer must not make any decision or carry out any act, as part of his official duties, which accrues to his personal benefit."

This means that an officer must put his duty ahead of any personal interests. If the two conflict, that is the textbook definition of a conflict of interest. Judges don't hear cases involving their own family or property, for the same reason.

But the textbook goes on to say that even the appearance of a conflict of interest can be detrimental to morale, order, etc. It's not enought to "be good". You must inspire others with confidence in your goodness, so you must "look good". Both are needed.

This is not to demean, belittle, or accuse you in any way. I am just proposing a standard for us all to follow at Misplaced Pages. I guess I should turn this into a Misplaced Pages:policy page.

I personally hold a lot of controversial opinions, and quite a large number of Wikipedians consider me to be the single most controversial person here on that account. But I have a reputation for being able to write neutrally, even on subjects I feel strongly about - partly because I am quick to reveal my Misplaced Pages:POV and moreover to ask others to help my overcome any unconscious bias I may harbor. And when others lose faith in my ability to write neutrally on any subject, I withdraw from it (for a while, anyway), e.g., on global warming.

I hope this helps. Cheers. Uncle Ed 12:11, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure that it's appropriate to conduct a discussion of of this nature on this page, however since you've initiated one I will take the opportunity to respond:

1. I am not part of, nor do I have a "connection to" any "micronation movement" because there is no such thing. I have over the last year or so developed an interest in what is generally accepted to be a notable, albeit eccentric, real historic phenomenon, and to research that phenomenon I have actively sought out those involved in it, as would any reputable researcher.

2. My opinions on the subject of micronations are not at all controversial. They are the same opinions held by most external observers and commentators who have reported or written about them since the 19th century. My opinions are based on facts and reputable sources, and they favour no-one, as all of my contributions to Misplaced Pages on the subject show.

3. I do not intend to cease contributing to Misplaced Pages on this subject merely because one or two other editors with troubled histories and an inability to conduct themselves in a civil manner can't deal with others, better-informed than themselves, playing in what they believe to be their sandpit. In fact, events in recent days have motivated me to look beyond the 3 micronation articles I have contributed to date, and I now intend to expand my contributions in this area.

I hope this clarifies things. --Centauri 13:26, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Actually, it doesn't. So I'll ask you point blank: are you using Misplaced Pages to promote the concept of micronations? Uncle Ed 13:48, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

Actually, it does, and I'd appreciate you doing me the courtesy of reading the comments I've taken the time to write - particularly point 2 above. --Centauri 14:06, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Since you've refused to answer my question, I no longer feel even a pro forma obligation to assume good faith. I hope this situation changes, but until it does I have to take your refusal into account in all my future decisions. Uncle Ed 21:10, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

Unfortunately I can't find any reference to a Misplaced Pages policy that requires me or any other editor to be accountable to, or "answer" questions that make no sense in the context of the discussion, framed for unknown purposes, by Uncle Ed. If you're having trouble understanding me, message me on my talk page. --Centauri 01:11, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Endorsement and all that it entails

cut from the article:

A "summit of micronations" hosted as part of the exhibition was attended by representatives of Sealand, Elgaland-Vargaland, New Utopia, Atlantium, Frestonia and Fusa

The use of the word representatives implies recognition of the micronations as the sovereign entitities their conceivers claim them to be. Misplaced Pages should remain neutral on the question of whether these entities are entitled to that recognition. Uncle Ed 20:42, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

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