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Free sites preferred

When the guideline says that we prefer links to free sites, what do we mean exactly? For example, we almost always prefer scholarly articles to non-scholarly ones, and generally you have to pay to read the former online, unless you're a member of a university library. SlimVirgin 22:30, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

That leads to an interesting point. If the article/journal itself is locked behind JSTOR or Elsevier, but an on-line copy exists on a less reliable platform, can the original (printed or on-line) article be the reference, and the URL be solely a convenience link? -- Avi (talk) 22:33, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps, subject to WP:COPY#Linking_to_copyrighted_works and WP:RS constraints. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 23:18, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the guideline should be that if exactly the same information is available for free, or for a fee, the free version is preferred. Also, if substantially the same information from sources of comparable reliability is available for free or for a fee, the free version should be preferred. But if substantially the same information is available from both a free and a non-free source, and the free source is less reliable than the non-free source, the more reliable source should certainly be cited, possibly with an additional citation to the free source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gerry Ashton (talk • contribs) 22:38, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Regarding scientific papers. I think we agreed we should always refer to the full pint (hardcopy) information as well as the DOI identifier. That will solve most of the problem. Regarding referring to less stable versions of a paper. There is a very good chance the free copy is copyright violation which will disappear as soon as the legal deparments of the copyright holder (e.g. JSTOR or Elsevier or whoever else) finds out that. Anyway I think we should be very careful linking to suspect sources; so make sure the non-official version is not actually an illegal copy. Arnoutf (talk) 22:44, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

The danger of advocating links to free sites is that we may inadvertently encourage courtesy links to copyright violations. As I see it, the issue of whether the site is free or not is irrelevant: what counts is the quality of the source. SlimVirgin 22:55, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't say whether the site is free or not is irrelevant, I would just say that reliability, absence of obvious copyright violations, and stability are more important than the site being free. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 23:01, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I think there's some merit to the "free" recommendation, as papers may be available from a variety of reliable sources. And with all due respect, the copyright concerns are highly overblown, and out of our purview. There's a substantial effort underway to encourage faculty to self-archive their own publications, many reputable journals now have official author-retain-copyright policies, many journals have some level of open-access policy, and there are a number of publicly available archives of scholarly material. It's worth talking about assessing reliability of sources, but we definitely ought not assume that sources violate copyright nor require that WP editors ascertain copyright status before linking to something: Ascertaining copyright status is a full-time, difficult job that can require significant legal expertise, inside information, hours of investigation, and so on. --Lquilter (talk) 23:05, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

How about this?

Where material of equal stability, interest, and reliability is available on a no-cost site, this will usually be preferred to one that charges a reading or subscription fee, but bear in mind that the quality of the source takes priority. When providing courtesy links, editors should be careful not to link to obvious copyright violations.

SlimVirgin 23:11, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Umm, provisionally it looks okay to me as a draft, although I want to tweak in a bit, but let me just make sure I understand what we're comparing it too -- we're all talking about the section in "Convenience links", and only that section, right? It currently reads:

Convenience links

The term "convenience link" is typically used to indicate a link to a copy of a resource somewhere on the Internet, offered in addition to a formal citation to the same resource in its original format. It is important to ensure that the copy being linked is a true copy of the original, without any comments, emendations, edits or changes. When the "convenience link" is hosted by a site that is considered reliable on its own, this is relatively easy to assume. However, when such a link is hosted on a less reliable site, the linked version should be checked for accuracy against the original, or not linked at all if such verification is not possible.

Where several sites host a copy of the desired resource, the site selected as the convenience link should be the one whose general content is most in line with Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view and Misplaced Pages:Verifiability. While no-cost sites are preferred, convenience links to non-free archives such as JSTOR are permitted, provided the material is available to the public (in libraries, for example).

So, SV, is your proposed text to revise the second (last) paragraph of this section? --Lquilter (talk) 00:18, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

To replace the last sentence, starting "while no-cost sites ..." I'd also want to copy edit the previous sentence. SlimVirgin 00:33, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I'll agree with SlimVirgin's suggestion. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 00:43, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

• (Outdent) I would suggest changing the final sentence to "While no-cost sites are preferred, convenience links to non-free repositories are permitted, provided the material is available in free repositories (such as libraries)". Wjhonson (talk) 00:50, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
• I'd suggest changing the first phrase ("Where material...") to ("Where copies of the reference...") just to be clear that we're talking about the same "material". --Lquilter (talk) 14:24, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

That wouldn't make any grammatical sense in that sentence. SlimVirgin 15:19, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Looking at this again, I can't even see what it has to do with convenience links, which is the section it's in. I think this was maybe written by someone who was just confused, so I've removed it and copy edited the rest of the section. SlimVirgin 15:34, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

• I think that's fine. --Lquilter (talk) 15:40, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. SlimVirgin 16:02, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

• Looks good. -- Avi (talk) 16:05, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

• User SandyGeorgia inserted a couple of sentences about copyright (diff). I took out the second one, which adds extra detail about whether or not the site has licensed the content. I think it goes beyond the current policy on linking to copyrighted information, and at any rate, it introduces the possibility for duplicates & ultimate inconsistency. So long as we link to the copyright policy & say linking it is in conformity with that, it should be okay. Other thoughts? --Lquilter (talk) 16:51, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not keen on having this guideline say anything about copyright. I took out that sentence I proposed, Lquilter, because of your previous post. It's a very complex area, and it's often used on WP as an excuse to remove links that are objected to on POV grounds, rather than out of a serious desire to respect copyright. SlimVirgin 17:00, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

• If a cited source has a web page for the cited item (such as a web page for a journal article) then that URL is preferred. For many journals, that URL is to a page which only has a citation or abstract of the article (with links to access the full article). If someone finds what seems to be a legitimate copy of the same article elsewhere, I suggest a separate citation for that item (which also takes care of the problem of preprints before changes, or an article and a book having the same name). If more than one source exists (such as full PD text of Treasure Island) then a free version would be preferred over one for a fee. -- SEWilco (talk) 17:44, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I totally hear what SV is saying and, wonder of wonders, we agree! Just for the record -- I'd rather not mention it at all, as I feel it contributes to copyright paranoia more than serves a useful purpose. But, I'm not strongly opposed to mentioning it, so if others think it's important to keep it in, that's okay; however, I do feel we shouldn't unnecessarily replicate information in multiple fora. Simply referring is better than restating & explaining in another place. --Lquilter (talk) 18:07, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. SlimVirgin 19:04, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Language

In Greece in the Eurovision Song Contest 2008 the references state the language that the source is written in. I added the retrieval dates, but should the language be there at all? Is there a standard for internet sources?Grk1011 (talk) 00:20, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

It's not necessary, but it's definitely helpful. SlimVirgin 00:31, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

In publishing references it is generally seen as a good idea to mention if a source is in a foreign language; but not if a source in the language of the publication as that can be considered standard. In the case of English Wiki; I would suggest to make a note of the language of non-english references only. An example of this is found in Dutch general election, 2006#References where almost all refs are tagged Dutch except for the few English ones (admitted because of the heavy coverage by Dutch sources this is not very clear). Perhaps time for a guideline how to handle foreign language sources in the references? Arnoutf (talk) 16:44, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

By all means have a go at drafting something, Arnout. It's a subject that people have strong feelings about. Some editors feel that sources should be predominantly in English so that readers can understand them; others feel that even hinting at this furthers systemic bias. If you feel you can pick your way through that minefield, it would be very helpful. :-) SlimVirgin 19:07, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

• I like the idea of including a (French) or whatever after non-English sources. We are definitively "English-language" WP, so I think we can distinguish non-English sources without necessarily prejudicing against them. --Lquilter (talk) 15:54, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok, some first draft would be something like this, I would place it as section 4.4:
===Citing non English language sources===
When citing a source written in another language than English, report the language of the source, by placing this name between brackets in bold immediately after the title. This prepares editors to judge whether it is useful to check a source based on the language of that source.

Example:
Mulisch, H (1992): "De ontdekking van de hemel" (Dutch), De Bezige Bij, the Netherlands
please comment Arnoutf (talk) 19:11, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

okay that works, i was putting the language if other than english at the end tho, ill start putting it after the title i guess.Grk1011 (talk) 19:39, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I have no problem where it is placed, whatever works best for all. This was just a suggestion. My reason for this suggestion is that it easily works with templates, just type the whole "De ontdekking van de hemel (Dutch)" as title in the template and it will work; but other suggestions are welcome. Arnoutf (talk) 19:45, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I believe that most of our citation templates already have a property for language. Make sure either that any new policy we introduce is compatible with what the templates already do, or that the templates are changed accordingly. In any case, sneaking the information into the "title" property of a template is a bad idea. If there are templates that need a field added for this, we should do so. This information should remain logically separate from the title. - Jmabel | Talk 18:48, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Edits

SallyScot has been making edits that have substantially changed parts of this guideline since roughly October, and repeatedly reverts when challenged. She does this even when her edits have clearly caused the writing to deteriorate.

If SallyScot is who she says she is -- a new account, not a sockpuppet -- then she arguably doesn't have the experience to be going around changing guidelines or policies. She has made only 481 edits to the encyclopedia, 273 of them to just one article. Of her other edits, 103 have been to this guideline or its talk page.

Alternatively, SallyScot is not who she says she is, and is indeed an account belonging to another user, in which case I would like to remind her that sockpuppet accounts are strongly discouraged on guideline and policies.

Either way, it would be appreciated if this kind of editing would stop. The guideline has to be reasonably stable, and material that has been in it for a long time shouldn't simply be removed on a whim. Similarly, we have to try to maintain a decent standard of writing. To call a template a "technique" is strange writing. It is a style or a format or a method, perhaps, but "technique" is just odd. And yet I am being reverted by her for correcting it. It is starting to feel as though I'm being trolled. SlimVirgin 15:13, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

The style or format would be the resulting rendered HTML - a template or "raw" wikitext are techniques for getting that rendered HTML; even if you don't agree with the terminology, this is at least a reasonable distinction to make. —Random832 08:31, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

---

Slim, Can you back up your claims about my history of repeated reverts when challenged on this article since about October with some examples other than those which relate to your own edits? It will be helpful if you take into account and include reference to edit summary comments. - From my perspective there was no great issue with repeated reverts here until you got involved.

You are as entitled as anyone to get involved at this or any other stage of course. That applies to each and to all. But this attitude of attributing your own edits greater importance based largely on criteria such as previous Misplaced Pages total edit count rather than more reasonable arguments just smacks of cliquishness.

Let's go over the issue of citation style / citation format.

'citation style' was changed to 'citation method' at 12:00, 24 January 2008 with the edit summary comment: (→Citation templates - The term "style" is misleadingly suggestive or at least ambiguous with sense of style as per e.g. the Chicago Manual of Style. We are talking about a behind the scenes METHOD.) - IP edit - SallyScot accidentally logged out.

reverted 15:13, 24 January 2008 SlimVirgin (style is correct)

Also posted on my talk page 15:15, 24 January 2008 - a second query about sock-puppetry...

"Please say what your main account is. You're continuing to revert on tiny little points in what looks like an effort to stir up trouble. Either quit it, or come clean about who you are. --SlimVirgin 15:15, 24 January 2008 (UTC)"

So, Slim didn't think much of 'citation method' then. What about 'citation technique'?

19:11, 24 January 2008 SallyScot (→Citation templates - the term "citation style" invites some confusion with distinct citation formatting conventions as in e.g. Chicago Style or MLA Style, "citation technique" is better)

Then it goes like this...

02:59, 25 January 2008 Jayjg (→Citation templates - techniques aren't distinctive, styles are)
03:47, 25 January 2008 Gerry Ashton (The style is the appearance seen by the reader. The technique is the markup which creates the appearance. We don't want the markup changed to or from templates; that's technique.)
12:57, 25 January 2008 SlimVirgin (technique -> format, and restored the References section, which was clearer before the copy edit)
14:40, 25 January 2008 SallyScot (→Citation templates - 'format' is synonymous with 'style' and invites similar confusion. Reasoning for use of 'technique' has already been given. Better argument for alternative is yet lacking.)
14:45, 25 January 2008 SlimVirgin (it's not a "technique" -- please don't edit in a way that causes the writing to deteriorate)
15:03, 25 January 2008 SallyScot (It IS a technique, for the reasons already given. Stubbornly saying otherwise is simply contradiction, not counterargument. You need to calm down and explain WHY you think it's not a technique.)
15:20, 25 January 2008 SlimVirgin (your changes were objected to, so please discuss on talk rather than just reverting)

With at 15:13, 25 January 2008 SlimVirgin's post above - i.e. the initial post of this 'SallyScot' section.

It looks as though a reasonable case has already been put against use of either the terms 'citation style' or 'citation format' in the Citation templates section. By comparison the arguments for continuing to use either of these terms seem to me more like stubborn contradictions "style is correct" or "it's not a "technique"" without a reasoned supporting argument.

It looks as though all SlimVirgin has to do to keep their edit in place is object in a simple "oh no it isn't" kind of way.

I'd like some clarification on the rules of engagement here.

--SallyScot (talk) 18:32, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

---

In the spirit of compromise and in the interests of working to a consensus I refer to the part of SlimVirgin's post above that says "a method perhaps" and propose a wording change from 'citation format' to 'citation method'.

If there are no counterarguments put forward in the interim (and no one does it before me) I'll do this in the next few days.

--SallyScot (talk) 23:16, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Frankly, SlimVirgin is correct; someone who has made fewer than 500 actual article edits shouldn't be attempting to re-write our guidelines. Experience is critical in understanding what works and what doesn't. Jayjg 23:33, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

And as someone with over 20,000 edits, I think I can say I have a fair working of wiki, and I agree with almost everything Sally had to say, Jay. -- Avi (talk) 01:07, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

My point was that people who don't have a lot of article editing experience shouldn't be trying to re-write policies or guidelines. That obviously doesn't apply to you. Jayjg 01:34, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Jayjg's point is a topic for wider discussion. However, in this case, it is clearly now moot. I have the support of at least one editor with over 20,000 edits. Counterarguments relevant to the proposed wording are thus called for. --SallyScot (talk) 11:45, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Citation method

So far...

SallyScot - "the term "citation style" invites some confusion with distinct citation formatting conventions as in e.g. Chicago Style or MLA Style"
Gerry Ashton - "The style is the appearance seen by the reader. The technique is the markup which creates the appearance. We don't want the markup changed to or from templates; that's technique"
SallyScot - "'format' is synonymous with 'style' and invites similar confusion"
Random832 - "the style or format would be the resulting rendered HTML - a template or "raw" wikitext are techniques for getting that rendered HTML; even if you don't agree with the terminology, this is at least a reasonable distinction to make."
Qp10qp - "I don't think is anything to do with templates. Presumably this refers to changing footnote format to Harvard, or whatever. I don't think it matters whether editors use templates or not, since the reader will not notice"
Qp10qp - "the expression "citation format" made to apply muddlingly both to what appears on the page and to what appears in the edit box: two different matters"
Avi - "I agree with almost everything Sally had to say"
SlimVirgin - "...a method, perhaps"

--SallyScot (talk) 22:06, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Citation method or technique versus style or format

You may have noticed my proposed change was reverted yesterday by User:Dreadstar with what I believe was a rather inappropriate edit summary exhortation - "Find consensus for this change, no edit warring".

I've invited further elucidation on Dreadstar's talkpage, pointing out that if they personally disagree with the edit then the onus is really on them to explain why.

My holding back from immediate editing and inviting discussion here has been done in good faith, with project page's stability in mind, and precisely in order to avoid edit warring. If edit warring is understood as an attempt to win a content dispute through brute force then it's those who revert without engaging in reasonable discussion who are guilty, not me.

Once again, I state my intention to post an edit that fixes the muddled use of the term 'citation format' in the Citation templates section.

If no counterarguments are forthcoming then I'll do this sometime on or after 04-Feb-2008.

Thanks, --SallyScot (talk) 17:39, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

First of all, this section, of arguments over a one-word change, is a waste of bytes. And note that my comment did not endorse any specific wording, only that the difference between, say, Harvard vs footnotes is of a different sort than the difference between using and not using templates, since one is reader-visible and the other is not. "style" can reasonably refer to either, though. My comment was more directed at her failure to AGF, and was not intended to say that you are right and she's wrong about the content itself. —Random832 18:10, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. Agreed, it's only a one word change, but it's one that I feel is an improvement.

The terms 'citation style' and 'citation format' are confusing when applied to the issue of usage or non-usage of citation templates. If you Google search the term "citation formats" for example you get pages such as academic guides from universities and other educational institutions telling you about the different formats such as MLA, APA, Chicago, Turabian, AMA, etc. - e.g.

Dictionary definitions of 'technique' include - "method of performance; way of accomplishing" and the application of "procedures or methods so as to effect a desired result." So, in the context of citation templates, the connotation of 'technique' as in 'tools and techniques' is clearly a better term than either 'citation format' or 'citation style'.

I happen to think ‘citation technique’ is better than ‘citation method’. But even so, even so, I changed 'technique' to 'method' in the spirit of compromise and in the interests of working to a consensus. Slim's post had said "a method, perhaps" after all.

--SallyScot (talk) 19:35, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Referencing different pages in the same book?

I have been learning how to add citations and references for a while now, but I still do not know exactly how to make multiple references to different pages in the same book. I could just reference a book without a page number, give the reference a name and make multiple references but I want to make my citations more precise.

I hate not backing up statements and claims without the exact page number listed. Despite checking many times, over a period of months, I find that the help pages are not clear enough for me to understand how to do this. - Shiftchange (talk) 22:51, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

One solution is to use {{Harvnb}} and {{Citation}} in combination with one another. See Philippine-American_war#Notes for an example. Click wikilinks to get from footnotes containing (possibly page-numbered) references to the associated citation or a work to which the references apply. Use the browser's Back button to get back. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 00:55, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

The inline citation method Short footnote citations with full references covers this. It's documented with examples on the project page. --SallyScot (talk) 11:38, 12 January 2008 (UTC) - This has since been removed as a consequence of 'Deterioration' edit (see section further above) --SallyScot (talk) 11:43, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the way most people do it, Shiftchange, is simply to write <ref name=Smith25>Smith, John. ''How to Write References''. Random Publisher, 2008, p. 25.</ref> Then if you reference the same page again, write <ref name=Smith25/>. This avoids the need for citation templates, which can make the text hard to edit. SlimVirgin 13:37, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

It's a good idea to actually make it <ref name="Smith25">, so that if you have spaces or other weird characters in the refname, the system doesn't bug out. --Lquilter (talk) 18:06, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

It's also very possible to combine these approaches: named ref element for same page + use of {{Harvnb}} for the reference itself. Whether templates make things easier or harder is a matter of taste. - Jmabel | Talk 18:52, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Proposal for handling page numbers with <ref> format_format-2008-01-26T05:39:00.000Z">

There's needs to be a better way to cite the same source with a different page numbers in the same document so that someone still knows which page related to what quote/statement. For example:

You might have <ref name="NameOfSource"> Full citation</ref> and <refpage name="NameOfSource">p.30</refpage> and later in the article you might use <refpage name="NameOfSource">p.35</refpage>. You can still use <ref name="NameOfSource" /> for simple citations that don't require page numbers.

---Action potential 05:39, 26 January 2008 (UTC)_format"> _format">

Not sure I follow your question, AP. There are different ways of handling it. The way I write them is <ref name=Smith70>Smith, John. ''Name of Book'', 2008, p. 70.</ref> Or if I'm using short refs <ref name=Smith70>Smith 2008, p. 70.</ref> If I'm certain I'll only cite page 70 once, I leave out the ref name. Or have I missed your point? SlimVirgin 21:55, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

---

I think the question has been asked (and misunderstood) before. I've moved earlier section from further above to immediately above this section for comparison. I think it's asking how you refer to different pages in different citations, but from the same basic reference, such as from the same book. Like, if you have...

The Sun is pretty big, but the Moon is not so big.

References

1. Miller, E: "The Sun", page 23. Academic Press, 2005.
2. Brown, R: "Size of the Moon", Scientific American, 51(78):46.

...using Footnotes referencing method, then how would you add to the text "The Sun is also quite hot." referenced from another page, e.g. page 34, of Miller's same "The Sun" book?

--SallyScot (talk) 01:37, 27 January 2008 (UTC)_format"> _format">

Thanks for translating for me SallyScot. That's exactly what I meant. In Stanford referencing it is simple, you can use (Miller 2005:23) for the first example you gave and (Miller 2005:34) for the second. I don't know how to handle it properly in the current wikipedia referencing system. Perhaps I'm looking for something like: <ref name="Miller 2005:23">Miller, E: "The Sun". Academic Press, 2005.</ref> and <ref name="Miller 2005:34"/> . The actual page of the quote would be added to the reference list which will help in fact and reference check. ----Action potential 02:53, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Another whack at an explanation — In the article prose, you might have something like this for inline harvard referencing:

The Sun is pretty big,{{Harvnb|Miller|2005|pp=12,236}} but the Moon is not so big.{{Harv|Brown|2006|p=57}}. The Sun is also quite hot.{{Harvnb|Miller|2005|p=34}}

or, with the harvard refs placed to footnotes in an endmatter Notes: section:

The Sun is pretty big,<ref>{{Harvnb|Miller|2005|pp=12,236}}</ref> but the Moon is not so big.<ref>{{Harvnb|Brown|2006|p=57}} (Brown was quite an expert on the moon)</ref>. The Sun is also quite hot.<ref>{{Harvnb|Miller|2005|p=34}}</ref>

Then, in the endmatter, something like:

If footnotes are used:

==Notes==
<references/>

and

:==References==
*{{Citation
|last=Brown
|first=R.
|title=Size of the Moon
|journal=Scientific American
|volume=78
|issue=46
|month=October
|year=2006}}
*{{Citation
|last=Miller
|first=E.
|title=The Sun
|year=2005
|publisher=Academic Press}}

See and the documentation for the {{tl{Harv}} {{Harvnb}}, and {{Citation}} templates. {{Harv}} and {{Harvnb}} generate forward links matching the {{citation}}: Empty citation (help) entries which have matching last= and year= values. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 07:25, 27 January 2008 (UTC)_format"> _format">

When other full citations are extensively in Footnotes already_format-2008-01-27T12:38:00.000Z">

I was wondering what the view is when contributing to an already well-established article. Supposing an extensive list of full citations already exist in a familiar Notes section (i.e. via <ref> tags and <references />), would the "refs placed to footnotes" approach then create a new Reference section and put the single new full reference there, and supporting multiple short citation references to it for the different page numbers via Notes (via <ref> tags).

In other words, so that the Notes section contains a mix of full citations and short citations?

--SallyScot (talk) 12:38, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

It's pretty common to have a Notes section that contains full citations to things that are only cited once (or where the same note is repeatedly linked from the text, because it is a web source and page number doesn't apply) and some kind of abbreviated citation for page numbers in books (used in conjunction with a "references" section). See John Considine (Seattle) for an example. - Jmabel | Talk 19:20, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

---

Thanks Jmabel, John Considine (Seattle) is exactly the kind of example I was looking for.

It makes for interesting comparison with an article such as Sophie Blanchard, where short citations with full references have been used consistently throughout (i.e. even when there's a one-to-one relationship between citation and reference).

The project-page section relating to this suggests that the reason for including an alphabetised listing of full references in addition to short notes is to "help readers to see at a glance the quality of the references used". So the question I would ask of John Considine (Seattle)'s approach is: Doesn't it look somewhat like a fairly arbitrary partial listing of some references, while other full citations appear in notes?

--SallyScot (talk) 13:59, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Too many sources?

I was just reading today's featured article, Treatment of multiple sclerosis, and although it is immaculately referenced, I feel there are so many references that the readability of the article is impaired. This is something that I notice from time to time in many big articles. My immediate concern is not whether or which citations might be "removed" (see below) from this particular article, but that WP:CITE doesn't mention this at all, so I don't know if there has ever been a consensus sought.

The main issue with the article linked is that it has a lot of lists of drugs, each wiki-linked to their own article, and then referenced with a citation to a journal that shows that the said drug has been used to treat the said specific symptoms. WP:LS#Citations already advises against redundant references in the lead section, and I think this should also apply to topics like this where the main article on that drug/whatever should be expected to restate the fact described by the list, and have that citation there.

If people disagree on this front, then WP:CITE should include something along the lines of, "If the same contentious statement is made in more than one article, such as when the subject of a statement on a broader topic has its own article, a citation should be provided in all the concerned articles, even if the same source is repeated, as each article must be independently verifiable." However, I don't think this should be the policy. If you saw a drug listed and thought, "I don't believe that this drug is used in this way" it would be logical to follow that article's link and find the citation on that page. Alternatively, to avoid WP:original research-ness as much as possible, a link to a secondary source with a related list would be appropriate. Anyone with me on this? BigBlueFish (talk) 15:01, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

This has come up before and is indeed an issue for debate.

I agree the Treatment of multiple sclerosis is very heavily referenced; and I would agree that listing 4 sources for a single sentence maybe both overdoing it, and disrupting the flow of reading.

While I agree the Lead should not have references redundant to the body text of that same article, in my opinion this is something completely different from information referenced or not somewhere in (I am overstating to make the point) another article of unknown quality. In my opinion it is simply not maintainable to keep track of all such articles, and this may mean that one of the articles is detoriating into a really bad one. This is obviously different from lead to body text as this both reflect same article. Basically my argument is a reason why I am a strong supporter of the guideline that other Wiki articles can never be used as reference. That would include this situation, each article has to verifiable from sources, not from other Wiki articles, so whereever sources are needed they have to be used. Arnoutf (talk) 15:30, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Your comment on maintainability is very insightful. I agree that from an editing perspective (always important on Misplaced Pages the incomplete encyclopedia) it is a pain not to be able to see what statements are sourced and which aren't. For the purposes of scrutiny, however, both for the reader and the editor, a statement isn't any more verifiable for lack of source on the broader article. Clicking the main article is a fairly minor step when looking up the said citation and deciding on what level it justifies the statement and how reliably.

I wonder whether this calls for some sort of expansion of the syntax. What immediately comes to mind is something like <ref name="p55" from="Stede Bonnet" />, which perhaps obviously would transclude the <ref name="p55"></ref> tag in the article Stede Bonnet. References such as this could be turned off by default and have the capacity to be turned on in user preferences or by a special page action. The reflist at the bottom could even include a note, "Other articles linked to by this article contain additional references which may be relevant to subjects discussed here. You can turn these references on in your preferences or show them now."

This would have the advantage of making all articles concerned more maintainable, as well as more readable for the majority. References can already be conditionally cited by putting the reference in a template, so I don't think that getting the preprocessor to transclude a relevant reference would be difficult to implement.

The issue of what is default and how to change it might be an issue, but I think my above suggestion would work nicely. Note that even if the visibility of references was permanently on, it would still make it easier to maintain citations of facts repeated across multiple articles, so if a better source is found or an update is made, the changes propagate across all the articles immediately. BigBlueFish (talk) 21:12, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Provide page numbers

Is this part new? I've submitted four featured science articles in the past without this being a requirement (the last in December), I've always followed the method used when writing journal articles, which is just to include the book title (or chapter title if it is a section like collected conference proceedings) and assume that people are capable of using indexes. I can see why this would be important if you're refering to an unindexed older text book or popular science book, but is it a requirement when citing an indexed monograph or handbook? I ask because it's been raised in a recent FAC (House Martin) as a possible objection. Sabine's Sunbird talk 21:43, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

No, it's been there for a while. I'm not clear what difference it would make if you were quoting from a monograph or handbook, Sabine. SlimVirgin 21:49, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Citing page numbers had been implicitly stated in the guideline before it became explicit with an edit on June 30 2006. It was still there in December 2006. The section was removed for a time, but I reintroduced it as a requirement last summer (July 1 2007). --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 17:33, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, any scientific text I mean. So this is a valid reason to oppose an FAC? Jeeze.... Sabine's Sunbird talk 21:56, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I would say it is, yes, because it's easy to give page numbers if you're reading the text yourself, and obviously you'd be reading it if you were citing it. So it's hard to see why we wouldn't want to. Sometimes you can give a page range, if you're citing a lot of material between, say, pp 50-70 -- you wouldn't necessarily have to cite every separate page, especially if the stuff's non-contentious. But to have no page numbers at all could be problematic at FA. SlimVirgin 21:59, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

If material could be easily located using the index, that would ordinarily suffice for the purposes of verifiability. However, the possibility for reviewers to place form over function is a well-discussed issue with the FA system. — Carl (CBM · talk) 22:09, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

The purpose of a citation is to efficiently lead the reader as close to the source as possible. The closer and more efficiently, the better.

Arguing that something could be located using an index is like arguing that only an ISBN number is sufficient. That would technically "suffice for the purposes of verifiability", but is not good citation. -- Fullstop (talk) 08:17, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I took at look at the FAC Sabine was referring to, and it did look as though the commentators were asking for too much. I think as Carl said this was a case of form over function. SlimVirgin 19:07, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Ahem. In that particular case, there is no chapter title provided in the citation either (and still isn't). A book titled "Swallows & Martins" could have a chapter titled "House Martin" of course, but commentators can hardly be expected to assume that.

I'd actually be surprised if anyone had done so: It would be more natural for an FAC reviewer to assume that a book titled "Swallows & Martins" would have info on Martins (House or otherwise) scattered throughout it (thus provoking the demand for page numbers).

Would you not demand page numbers for references to "Pretorians" in a book titled "The Romans"?

-- Fullstop (talk) 19:32, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Personally I would provide page numbers, yes, or at least a range. But there was something odd going on with that FAC -- someone was adding fact tags unnecessarily and repeating the same source over and over in the same paragraph. It looked like overkill. SlimVirgin 02:18, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Don't know if this has been discussed, but I find that some internet versions of sources do not provide page numbers, such as some Lexis-Nexis texts. (Personally, I find it's easy to deal with because such texts can be searched.) HG | Talk 02:07, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The reviewers can indeed be expected to actually look at the cited book, or have first-hand knowledge of it, before they complain that the reference isn't specific enough. I would expect that out of a referee for an article, and they're anonymous, unlike FA reviewers. The fact that reviewers may complain about references that they are not actually concerned enough to check is precisely what I meant by "form over function". — Carl (CBM · talk) 02:13, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Use of terms Reference and Citation

A Use of terms section has been added to the project page which says - This guideline uses the terms "source," "reference," and "citation" interchangeably.

I asked the question a while ago (Archive19) - "aren't the terms "References" and "Citations" fairly synonymous?", and it was pointed out...

"Maybe there is different jargon in different fields. In the field I'm in (math), references are published works and we cite those references in the papers we write. So the article Sophie Blanchard matches our usage of the terms. — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:37, 21 November 2007 (UTC)".

I was looking at the former featured article Sophie Blanchard at the time, and wondered if its two section headings, one called Citations and one called References weren't interchangeable.

Another response was...

"I don't know, that article seems fairly intuitive to me. One list contains a list of works to which the author referred in writing the piece ("References"), and the other contains instances in which the author actually cites those works in order to substantiate the content of the piece ("Citations"). Christopher Parham (talk) 00:56, 21 November 2007 (UTC)"

So, after this, I thought I understood the difference.

However, the new 'Use of terms' section seems to be leaning toward the idea of citation and reference being the same thing.

This is true enough when full citations are included within <ref> tags using the Footnotes approach and generated in a References section using <references /> tag (or {{Reflist}} template). In this case they do seem to be one and the same thing.

But with Harvard referencing (for example) I thought the citation would be like, (Miller 2005, p. 23).

And the Reference...

• Miller, E (2005). "The Sun - Our Nearest Star", Academic Press.

So, my question is, do we need to make a distinction between citations and references or not?

--SallyScot (talk) 17:42, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

---

You see, I think it's one thing to say at the outset that these terms are used in this guideline somewhat interchangeably, so that newbies don't overly concern themselves about the nuances, but it's another for the guideline to go on and actually use them in a way which unnecessarily confuses those nuances for those that know them.

For example, the section that says...

Provide full citations
All citation techniques require detailed full citations to be provided for each source used. Full citations must contain enough information for other editors to identify the specific published work you used. Full citations for books typically include: the name of the author, the title of the book or article, the date of publication, and page numbers. The name of the publisher, city of publication, and ISBN are optional. For journal articles, include volume number, issue number and page numbers. Citations for newspaper articles typically include the title of the article in quotes, the byline (author's name), the name of the newspaper in italics, date of publication, page number(s), and the date you retrieved it if it is online.

This could as easily be written...

Provide full details
All citation techniques require full details to be provided for each source used. References must contain enough information for other editors to identify the specific published work you used. Full references for books typically include: the name of the author, the title of the book or article, the date of publication, and page numbers. The name of the publisher, city of publication, and ISBN are optional. For journal articles, include volume number, issue number and page numbers. References for newspaper articles typically include the title of the article in quotes, the byline (author's name), the name of the newspaper in italics, date of publication, page number(s), and the date you retrieved it if it is online.

Which reads in a way that still doesn't bog the beginner down, it doesn't insist that you know the difference, but at the same time doesn't unnecessarily muddle the distinction between what technically is the citation and what is the reference (i.e. the distinction I made in the previous post which may apply e.g. for Harvard references).

--SallyScot (talk) 23:53, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Short footnotes with "Reference" section

If a complete reference section is being supplied, then short footnotes should be used. Firstly, they cut down on the in-text clutter, which I know is a dearly held concern of yours, Slim and Jay. Secondly, there is absolutely no reason to have every citation umpteen times in the notes section, of all that is changing is a page number. Put the author-date-page number in the ref tag and the complete citation in the Reference section. Do you have any compelling arguments as to why it should be otherwise? -- Avi (talk) 01:26, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Avi wants to say that short footnotes must be used if a separate References section is maintained. Note -- must be used. Do we want to force editors to do that? If so, what do we mean by short footnotes exactly, because they can mean several things?

In my view, we have enough rules here, and we shouldn't be forcing people to write citations in certain ways if they don't want to. SlimVirgin 01:27, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

"Should" <> "Must", it is a strong recommendation. Is there a reason why we should not recommend it, Slim? I thought you were all in favor of reducing in-text clutter? -- Avi (talk) 01:32, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

For those, who want to see the issue here:

Version A:

If a reference section is included, the footnotes should be in a separate section entitled "Notes" or "Footnotes" and short footnotes should be used, giving the author(s) and the page number, and perhaps the title, but without a full citation, which should be placed in the "References" section.

Version B:

If such a section is included, the footnotes should be in a separate section entitled "Notes" or "Footnotes." Where an alphabetical list of references is provided, short footnotes may be used, giving the author(s) and the page number, and perhaps the title, but without a full citation.

Wjhonson (talk) 01:31, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure it should be a rule, but I think Avi's approach is a fairly good idea. This seems to be an invention for Misplaced Pages; the style manuals I'm familiar with don't mention this exact approach. If we are inventing something new, should we make the format clearer? Some points that have not been addressed are:

• • • What is the exact format for the short note?
    • If writing freestyle endnotes and bibliography entries, how can I create a link from the endnote to the bibliography entry? --Gerry Ashton (talk) 01:35, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

The question is whether it should be introduced as a rule. My version says short footnotes "may" be used if there's a separate references section. His version says "should." I would like to leave it as "may," because I think we already have too many rules for writers. What matters is that we know who their sources are, and that they use a consistent style.

And people understand different things by "short footnotes" anyway. SlimVirgin 01:40, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Responding to Gerry Ashton - one way would be:

• In the article prose: <ref>a footnote with a harvard-reference to {{harvnb|Author|2008|p=123}}.</ref>, placing something like the following in the Notes section:

27. a footnote with a harvard-reference to Author 2008, p. 123

• In the Notes section: <references />
• In the References section.

• {{Citation|title=A book about something|last=Author|first=John Q.|year=2008}}

The {{Harvnb}} creates a link to #CITEREFAuthor2008, and {{Citation}} creates a <cite id=...> with that ID. No backlink is provided -- the browser's Back button can be used to back up from the citation to the link which navigated you there. {{Citation}} supports an optional ref= (lowercase 'r') parameter which you can use to specify the cite ID yourself, and {{harvnb}} supports a Ref= (uppercase 'R') parameter to specify a matching link href.

Also, you can place literal links like #Joe's book or , etc. in your article prose and/or in your footnotes and manually place a {{anchor}} with the matching ID at your citation for Joe's book.

Here are targets for the links above:

• Author, John Q. (2008), A book about something {{citation}}: |last= has generic name (help)
• Joe Blow wrote "A book about nothing". -- Boracay Bill (talk) 03:27, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Boracay Bill, thank you for trying to respond to my post, but apparently you missed the word "freestyle" in my post. Your suggestion relies on templates. Furthermore, you suggest the use of the Citation template in the references section, but that template separates elements with commas rather than full stops, and therefore goes against what one finds in most style guides. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 04:29, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Gerry Ashton: OK, without formatting templates and using a dot rather than a comma after the year -- similar to my second example above regarding Joe Blow's book, but using the HTML <CITE> tag instead of {{anchor}} in order to get the styling hilite working:

Some text using an inline harvard ref to cite a book. <small>(])</small>

and

<cite id=CITEAuthor2008>* Author, John Q. (2008). ''A book about something''.</cite>

modify as needed to tweak the style but, done as shown above, producing the following:

Some text using an inline harvard ref to cite a book. (Author 2008:123)

and

* Author, John Q. (2008). A book about something.

If there's further on this, let's discuss it on my talk page as this sidebar discussion is a distraction here. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 05:32, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

(<-) Back to short notes, Gerry, there does not need to be a fixed format, but something along the lines of <ref name = "NameNumber">LastName, Year, pg #</ref> with the full citation (templatized or not ) in the Reference section seems much more manageable. -- Avi (talk) 16:33, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

That's fine, and the guideline gives it as an option, but I wouldn't want this page to try to enforce it. We already have too many citation rules, and people are feeling overwhelmed by them, particularly at FAC. The tone of this guideline has always been, "Here are the options; you choose which one to follow; just be consistent within pages and don't force style changes on other people." People may use footnotes or Harvard refs, with or without a separate Refs section, and if with, then with or without short footnotes. SlimVirgin 17:01, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

On the specific issue of "should" versus "may" I'm in agreement with SlimVirgin here. Requirement-creep is we don't want, unless there are many invisible flame-wars going on (of which I'm not aware), over people trying to force style changes on others. For my own, I don't like template, and I'm blithely (sp?) unaware of standard referencing. Personally I like full-citations in footnotes, but I'm not terribly consistent. However if someone were to fix my footnote citations, and add a references or bibliography section, I would think that's super. We don't want style to be so burdensome that it causes new editors grief. I think "should" has more potential to cause biting, then "may" has to create it. Wjhonson (talk) 17:18, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough, Slim and Wjohnson, we'll leave it at may. What about this last edit? And yes, I did restore "some editors" as opposed to "it can" as I think that as the guideline is essentially wikipedia talking, it should be as neutral as possible. -- Avi (talk) 17:48, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I like your latest wording better yes, I have no contention with it. One quibble, here

If short footnotes are used, the full citation, which should be placed in the "References" section.

, you have an extra "which" which — isn't grammatical. Wjhonson (talk) 17:53, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that was hideous. Thanks! -- Avi (talk) 18:34, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Avi, please stop trying to force your template change in. Four or five people have explained here on talk what the problem is. You've already tweaked and tweaked at it to the point where it doesn't make as much sense anymore, but every time you make another edit, you have to tweak it some more. Please leave it alone. SlimVirgin 19:00, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

You reverted the changes to the Maintenance section as well, perhaps inadvertently, when you restored the "subject to" sentence. I fixed those changes back to what was discussed here, left the sentence you feel is critical in the text, and would ask you discuss it in the section immediately below above. -- Avi (talk) 19:39, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

How to cite flash

Let's say we have a corporate website, and we're trying to source a fact. They happen to heavily use flash on their website. Which means there is no direct link to the section you want to source. How can we properly source this?--Crossmr (talk) 04:15, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Setting aside the reliability issue with corporate websites, the fundamental issue is verifiability. Verifiability is needed for controversial facts, so if its not controversial, don't cite it. To be verifiable a cite should be in print, a web link is a convenience link that supports the underlying printed source. Flash doesn't seem convenient at this time.--Paleorthid (talk) 05:01, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

It's very annoying when websites do that. They do it deliberately so that people have to go into the site via the homepage, rather than being able to deep link. You can site the main page as the source, but if the issue is contentious, someone's going to click on it in future, not find the supporting material, and remove the edit, so it's better to find another source. You could also write to the company and tell them they're shooting themselves in the foot with this flash business. SlimVirgin 05:29, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The owner of the site might not be aware of the problems. Often Flash problems are due to a web artist that is unaware of usability and access issues. Several of my web browsers are unable to use Flash due to technical or corporate policy issues. If you can't find a useful way to describe how to access the info on the web then you can't use it as a Misplaced Pages source. You can try to contact the Flash-impaired site's staff and tell them how you can't use their site. -- SEWilco (talk) 18:16, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Template help

I have been writing the article Elderly Instruments and I ended up using some "cite news" and "cite journal" templates because of the different nature of my source. Can anyone look at the article, in the References section, and see that the template I used for footnote #9 places the date at the end of the source? Is that correct? It just looks weird to me since the rest of my sources place the date after the author name.--Laser brain (talk) 17:05, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

You have a point as per the Chicago Manual of Style chapters 17.164 and 17.188. 17.164 deals with journals and the date is supposed to be in parentheses after volume and issue number. The current template places it after the authors name. I have started a discussion about that here: Template talk:Cite journal#The date in parentheses should be moved after the volume/issue.. As for newspapers, 17.188 does have the style as the template, in that it is name, title, publication, and date sans parentheses. -- Avi (talk) 17:27, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Alternatively, you could just write the citation without a template, then you could put the date wherever you want it. SlimVirgin 22:40, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Archive needed?

This talk page is currently ~340,000 bytes long. Isn't it about time to archive some of it? My laptop, which admittedly needs more memory, is taking about 15 seconds to display the page under Windows XP / IE 7 with 512KB memory. Wdfarmer (talk) 07:46, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Done. SlimVirgin 07:49, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Question re tagging

Is there a tag to use to indicate that although a reference is provided, an editor feels that it isn't a suitable reference, and should be replaced with a better one? Something like {{betterref}} which would display a message saying "A better reference is required" rather than having a ref deleted and replace with {{fact}} Mjroots (talk) 15:32, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Not to my knowledge. The best thing is to ask for a better reference on talk, or to find one yourself. SlimVirgin 22:38, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

"Subject to agreement…" phrase in template section

It appears that as this Wikipedia_talk:Cite_sources/archive20#"Subject to agreement" phrase in template section was archived off of the talkpage without anyone responding to me, that there was no valid counter-arguments to my statements, and thus that there is no opposition to my removing that sentence from the guideline. Just to ensure that fact, I will ask one last time for a valid reason to keep the redundant and confusing statement in the guideline, otherwise I will remove it. Thanks. -- Avi (talk) 20:57, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Do you agree that the other statement in the Citaton templates section that controls changes, "editors should not change an article with a distinctive citation format to another without gaining consensus", means that editors should not add or remove citation templates from existing citations unless they gain consensus, or unless the format of the existing citations in an article are so mixed up that there is no discernable "distinctive citation format"? Do you reject the concept that citation templates may be added or removed at the whim of any editor, so long as the final appearance to the reader isn't changed? --Gerry Ashton (talk) 22:01, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with the removal of "subject to agreement." The point of it is to protect editors on existing articles from having templates imposed on them without their agreement. SlimVirgin 22:37, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Ideally for me the wording would more reflect the idea that you should find editors more relaxed, and you'll see articles happily containing both freehand and template citations. Misplaced Pages is meant to be a collaborative project after all. Ideally I'd like to see something that would encourage editors to be respectful, tolerant and accommodating of the different preferred approaches as long as the results render similarly well to the reader. I'd say that pre-existing citations added by other editors should not subsequently have change imposed on them. That's not to say that an editor can't "be bold". Nine times out of ten commonsense will prevail, only if subsequent agreement can't reasonably be reached then bear in mind the pre-existing citation techniques, and that it should work both ways, so don't impose change from freehand to template, or vice-versa. However, in lieu of such idealism, the proposal to simply remove the "subject to agreement" phrase gets my approval on the basis that it is somewhat redundant in light of the boldface closing part, and also somewhat unbalanced in tending to suggest only template addition is subject to approval and not template removal. --SallyScot (talk) 23:38, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

We don't encourage being bold when it comes to imposing style changes on articles, as more than one ArbCom case has upheld, as has already been explained. I'm confused as to why this keeps on being raised by the same people, because others have already said several times that they don't agree with the proposed change. SlimVirgin 23:48, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I think you may be confusing the issue of style changes. I'd appreciate it if you could direct me to the most relevant ArbCom cases that you are aware of in this instance. Thanks, --SallyScot (talk) 00:18, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure why we are going over this again. Many people object strongly to citation templates as an unwieldy group of over 80 inflexible templates, each with its own special language, and all making the article harder to edit. This entirely reasonable and valid objection was accommodated in this guideline by wording that made it clear that they should not be forced onto articles - and, in reality, it is the citation templates that are forced onto articles, never the other way. I've never seen someone go and convert a bunch of template references to the easier to use non-templated ones, but I've seen it done the other way literally hundreds of times. If someone has managed to impose these templates on another article without objection, well, they've won and Misplaced Pages has lost - but that shouldn't be the case where editors object to them. Jayjg 02:25, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Jay and Slim, you seem to be misunderstanding my point. I agree that templates should no more be forced on articles than removed. However, the operative criterion needs to be consensus, not the less-well-wiki-defined objection. There is no reason why template removal should be easier to perform than template addition, as long as the template being added is not against an existing distinctive style, which is admirably taken care of by the statement Gerry pointed out (as I did a while back) "editors should not change an article with a distinctive citation format to another without gaining consensus". In a nutshell, Slim and Jay, why isn't that enough to cover all bases? Your personal dislikes notwithstanding, do you have a valid reason to apply a different standard to removing templates than adding them? Once again, editors should not change an article with a distinctive citation format to another without gaining consensus should be sufficient to cover all cases equitably, and I have still not heard a valid counter-explanation. Thanks. -- Avi (talk) 02:44, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

From my perspective, it's you that keeps missing the point, Avi. It's not a question of consensus. The issue is that these templates cannot be imposed on an article if there is an objection, as with any style issue (a principle upheld by ArbCom). As Jay says, people don't turn up at articles with the sole intention of removing templates, but they do turn up with the sole intention of imposing them. Hence the wording, and there is no agreement here (or consensus) that it be removed. SlimVirgin 04:33, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Which is covered by the last sentence, so why the redundancy? Further, per ArbCom rulings, the objections can only be used to revert the change if there is a pre-existing distinctive style for which either the addition or the removal of the template comprises a "change" to the citation style. The sentence there now does not make that clear. Removing it, however, leaves the last sentence as the clear guideline that any change against consensus is not allowed. So, once again, why leave it LESS clear? -- Avi (talk) 04:39, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

The "subject to agreement" wording has been in the guideline since 2004. It has served people well, because it means that the templates can't be imposed on articles over objections. This follows the approach of the ArbCom to style issues in general. To change it now could lead to pointless edit warring. Secondly, since 2004-5, the policy has said in general of citation style changes that, if there is disagreement, the style used by the first major contributor to use one should be respected. This is also in keeping with the ArbCom rulings. There is no need to change any of this wording now. SlimVirgin 05:04, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I must take issue with SlimVirgin's statement "The issue is that these templates cannot be imposed on an article if there is an objection, as with any style issue (a principle upheld by ArbCom)." Suppose, for example, there is an article about a unit of measure that was in use in the U.S. and the U.K., but in 2011 the U.K. bans it. An editor asks on the talk page if it would be OK to change the spelling in the article to U.S. spelling, since the unit has become exclusive to the U.S., and nine editors agree, but one disagrees. According to SlimVirgin, the spelling in the article couldn't be changed. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 05:11, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

It would depend on the article. In the case of spellings, the MoS says that there has to be a strong reason to change from BE to AE or vice versa e.g. the article is about an American, and the ArbCom ruled that people shouldn't arrive at articles for the purpose of making these changes. You can definitely find exceptions to all these rules, but the point is that editors arriving at pages to impose their style changes over objections is strongly discouraged. We went through a period of it in 2004-5 with various style issues, and it led to a lot of trouble; hence the wording here. SlimVirgin 05:31, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I think you may be confusing the issue of style changes. I'd appreciate it if you could direct me to the most relevant ArbCom cases that you are aware of in this instance. Thanks, --SallyScot (talk) 08:54, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Gerry, for getting my point :) Slim, "arriving at an article to make changes" when the article already has a distinctive style is covered by the last sentence. Where in the following text does there appear any license to force templates on an article:

The use of citation templates is neither encouraged nor discouraged. Some editors find them helpful, arguing that they maintain a consistent style across articles, while other editors find them distracting when used inline in the text, because they make the text harder to read in edit mode and harder to edit. Because templates are optional and can be contentious, editors should not change an article with a distinctive citation format to another without gaining consensus.

-- Avi (talk) 18:55, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

The thing is, as has been pointed out, no-one goes around turning citation template references into normal references; but the opposite it unfortunately common. That's why the guideline has to specifically address it. Jayjg 02:05, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Re ArbCom: The repeated vague allusions to previous ArbCom rulings are quite misleading (and it's not as if I haven't asked for further specific examples). I think there’ll only be incidents relating to true changes of citation style/format - i.e. in the proper sense of those terms - i.e. something that would render to the reader. What we're talking about with citation templates is a technique - i.e. a way of accomplishing a desired result. I'm not saying that no one is entitled to disagree with template use in given contexts, e.g. forcing inline use against consensus, but I do have an issue with continued attempts to bolster a wider argument with inapplicable inferences about precedents set by ArbCom rulings which simply have no bearing.

Re -"The "subject to agreement" wording has been in the guideline since 2004. It has served people well" - Appeals to tradition can be fallacious arguments at the best of times, but in this case it I think it's especially misleading. I haven’t looked at each of the 3000+ individual edits to the article since 2004, but I did see enough to suggest that, for example, for latter part of year 2005 (August onwards) and most of year 2006 there was no such wording included. Similar wording may have been in the separate Citation templates guideline, but away in a linked document it was arguably under the radar here. In any case, I don't see the stability that Slim suggests was there before this more recent discussion. From when the wording was reintroduced in August 2006 there are enough edits to suggest ongoing issues with its overall neutrality. And Slim's repeated sock-puppet accusations in reaction to my recent contributions are also quite telling, as they further suggest (among other things) a prior history of some dispute. Others in the past may have given up out of sheer frustration.

One or two editors presiding long-term (+ full-time) here shouldn't mean that others can't reasonably contribute. In this regard, even though I don't think Avi's proposed wording is as good as it could be (e.g. such as it referring to citation format rather than technique), and while I reserve the right to argue for further improvement, I do think Avi is at least asking direct and reasonable and questions that deserve direct and reasonable answers.

--SallyScot (talk) 22:29, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Jay, I'm glad that someone is finally admitting that the guideline, as it stands, is inequitable, partial, and biased against templates. I understand that statistically speaking, at least on the articles that you and Slim edit, you may find the proportion of changes more one way than the other. Speaking as a professional statistician, have you ever considered the fact that your observations are materially biased by selection? The articles you work on predominantly do not have templates, because of your and Slims predilections, so your collective negative experiences will be in regards to additions. For someone such as myself, who predominately uses templates, my negative experiences will be with removal. Be that as it may, the guideline must address both situations imaprtialy, fairly, equitably, and in an unbiased matter. Therefore, it must either discuss the addittion and removal simultaneously and BOTH can be removed with mere "objection", or, as I would prefer, and believe is in the spirit of wiki-policy, BOTH addition and removal must be subject to consensus - either overtly in the text, or more efficiently, in the suggestion I made above, which removes the inequitable and ambiguous sentence. The guideline, as it stands, is non-equitable, and thus improper and against policy--and thus must be changed. -- Avi (talk) 13:38, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't see the current text being biased one way or anther - it simply says that they are neither encouraged nor discouraged, and that the style shouldn't be changed unilaterally. Can someone point out to me where the biased part is? — Carl (CBM · talk) 14:12, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

The italicized sentence:

The use of citation templates is neither encouraged nor discouraged. Templates may be used at the discretion of individual editors, subject to agreement with other editors on the article. Some editors find them helpful, arguing that they maintain a consistent style across articles, while other editors find them distracting when used inline in the text, because they make the text harder to read in edit mode and harder to edit. Because templates are optional and can be contentious, editors should not change an article with a distinctive citation format to another without gaining consensus.

The current wording allows one editor to come to an article, claim an "objection" and start removing templates. Why is it not subject to consensus like everything else. I prefer the following wording:

The use of citation templates is neither encouraged nor discouraged. Some editors find them helpful, arguing that they maintain a consistent style across articles, while other editors find them distracting when used inline in the text, because they make the text harder to read in edit mode and harder to edit. Because templates are optional and can be contentious, editors should not change an article with a distinctive citation format to another without gaining consensus.

Which is exactly the same but without the unfair sentence, so EVERYTHING is subject to consensus, and ANY change against a specific existing style is covered. -- Avi (talk) 15:22, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

---

"no-one goes around turning citation template references into normal references" - Not only is this claim untrue, it is demonstrably untrue. In fact, no lesser an editor than SlimVirgin goes around and turns an article's citation template references into 'normal' references only an hour or so after Jayjg's post above - see this comparison of previous with revision as of 03:13, 8 February 2008.

Here the citation templates were not even being used inline. They were sitting in a separate References section. The article was using short footnotes.

Replacing short footnotes with longer freehand full citations in the article text, as Slim has done, clearly blows out of the water any pretence that it is templates interfering with the article text that is their real reason for removal.

So do we just have to accept that a few stubborn editors simply find citation templates annoying in any context and there'll be no reasoning with them?

--SallyScot (talk) 17:12, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I've changed it back. Thank you for pointing out specific examples of apparent hypocrisy. -- Avi (talk) 17:32, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Also, still objecting to the "can be contentious" wording, which is prejudicial and was added only recently. I personally dislike cite templates and rarely use them, but there is no doubt that they are used in the majority of featured articles, enjoy widespread support on Wiki, and there is no reason for this guideline to contain unwarranted and unfounded bias against them. Better would be to get them standardized. By the way, I'm also still noticing an inappropriate section heading on this page, here. Per talk page guidelines, section headings shouldn't be personalized. Please adjust before it is archived (whether the accusations in that section even belongs on this page is another issue). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:20, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Books

I got a question. How exactly should look like the source of a citation in Misplaced Pages if it is a book? Another question: Can (if yes - how) can I cite books, that are in other languages? Thanks--Lykantrop 14:48, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

You can cite books in other languages the same as books in English, but be prepared to offer translations of key passages if someone asks you to -- and it's a good idea to offer translations in a footnote without being asked.

The simplest way to write a book citation is <ref>Smith, John. ''Name of Book''. London: Name of Publisher, 2008, p. 1.</ref> SlimVirgin 16:14, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Multiple Sourcing

I can't find the answer to this anywhere I look. If we use the same source multiple times in the same article, how can we source it without linking to it over and over? Meaning I referenced XYZ.com 4 times throughout the page, linking to the same page, and not all in a row. Do I have to have all the refs in the page (I have a good 20 or so for a small page because of it) or is there a way to cut down and link to the same one? 137.142.181.179 (talk) 17:53, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi, you can use the same ref multiple times by writing, the first time:

<ref name=Smith>Smith, John. ''Name of Book''. London: Name of Publisher, 2008.</ref>

and then every time thereafter:

<ref name=Smith/> SlimVirgin 17:57, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Tools

I've made a simple bookmarklet that helps to create formatted citations. You can find it here, with a description and example usage. Much lower-rent than Zotero, but I find it frustrating when Zotero won't extract perfectly good metadata. I don't want to blow my own horn by adding it to the list of tools straight away, since I don't know if anything like this already exists (I couldn't find anything quite like this), or if anyone else would find this useful. Feel free to have a play with it, and if you think its worthwhile, add it to the page. --Bazzargh (talk) 21:33, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi Bazzargh, thanks for that information. You might also want to post to Misplaced Pages talk:Citation templates. Cheers, SlimVirgin 00:41, 8 February 2008 (UTC)