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Jay Brannan

Jay Brannan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

A biography of a marginally notable individual who has expressed, in OTRS ticket 2008020210003368, a strong desire that it be deleted, not least because much of the information is (he says) wrong. It has been deleted before, but the previous versions were abject nonsense. This is not abject nonsense, but the subject says it's largely incorrect, and there are very few reliable sources we could use to fix that, especially since he has stated in no uncertain terms that he's not interested in helping us to do so. Guy (Help!) 20:25, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

• Delete. This is my default "vote" for anyone of marginal or unclear notability who wants their own article deleted. I feel in such cases we should respect the subject's wishes. Besides, as written thee subject does not appear to pass WP:MUSIC. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 20:40, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Apparenly you haven't seen Shortbus then. He's not just notable for his music but he does pass WP:MUSIC. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ 20:52, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

• Strong Keep - we don't delete articles just because subjects of the article don't like what's been written about them. Further, I'd say you were out of line by removing sourced content and then nomming the article for deletion. You should restore the content immediately. Regarding your edit summary, Subject says he has no interest in pursuing a gay pride agenda, and also refuses permission for the photo, for which he says he owns copyright. Removing both for now, as a courtesy. It does not matter what the subject of the article has an interest in. We don't pander to article subjects "wants" in articles about them. With regards to the photo, Brannan does not own the copyright to it. It was taken by Jason Anfinsen who attended one of Brannan's performances - Oct 16, 2007; Mercury Lounge, New York City to be exact. Regarding the "openly gay" content that was removed by the nom, when a person has achieved that level of notability that a biography is acceptable, all known facts about the person have an equal chance of being represented. The person, short of pointing out libelous statements, has no special prerogative to exclude certain details. We do not allow this priviledge to Ann Coulter, we do not allow it to Jimmy Wales, we allow it to nobody. It is a red-herring argument that only issues *related* to notability are included. We include a biography based on notability, but once included, each statement does not need to pass notability to be included.- ✰ALLSTAR✰ 20:44, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

• Er, yes, we do if the subject is of marginal notability. Daniel Brandt is the canonical example. Guy (Help!) 21:17, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

• Keep (can we use WP:SNOW here?). He may not be super-famous but he certainly meets notability for bios. If there is something incorrect then source the correct info and move on. There's no reason we can't use verifiable sources similar to media outlets but agree if information is wrong then we should fix it. If the subject and nom want removal of his being gay then they should take it up with those who report it and not wikipedia, our stating what a source has published is not "pursuing a gay pride agenda". That would actually be problematic POV issue, instead we write articles about what gay pride and gay rights are and what people believe is the gay agenda. Benjiboi 21:17, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

• Per WP:ATT, we could have said that he had discussed his sexuality in an interview, or discussed the difficulties of growing up gay in Texas. What we actually did was to edit war with the subject over a statement that he is openly gay, a form of words he clearly dislikes. Please do make an effort to be sensitive to the feelings of article subjects. Guy (Help!) 21:30, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

• Jeff Marx had an issue with "openly gay" in that he found it offensive that it had to be spelled out he is "open" as if it is ever something that should be concealed. --David Shankbone 21:33, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

• Sure, I can see why that particular form of words might be an issue for a lot of reasons. Edit-warring with the subject over it did not make him feel warm and loved. Guy (Help!) 21:39, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

• Keep as he totally meets WP:BIO with significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources. Multiple attempts at engaging the subject about his article, including determining what he sees is "wrong" with it, have met with resistance and no further indication about what might actually need fixing. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 21:24, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
• Comment No opinion, but this is in the interest of transparency. - Mdsummermsw (talk) 21:31, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

There's no issue with alerting the projects who oversee an article, in this case the LGBT project. --David Shankbone 21:33, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Allstarecho canvassed rather more widely than that. Guy (Help!) 21:38, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I didn't "canvas".. I informed people who have participated on the article's talk page, that the article was up for deletion, something you should have done. Were you trying to sneak it by people hoping it would be deleted with no fanfare? - ✰ALLSTAR✰ 21:56, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Are you this obnoxious in real life? If so, who fixes your nose every time it gets broken? All I did was answer an email from a hurt and upset article subject, whose opinion of Wikipedians is that they all act like, well, like you did just then, in fact. We've managed to give him the impression that we do things just because he doesn't want them done. And looking at some of the reaction here, he may well be at least partly right. Guy (Help!) 22:53, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

• Keep - quite notable, with coverage everywhere from the New York Times to a cover piece in The Advocate (though that one's paywalled). Between the music and the movie, he seems to pass. Deleting instead of responding to concerns through editing is a bit harsh...Tony Fox (arf!) 21:39, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
• Weak Keep Although he seems like a jerk, the article is innocuous. Misplaced Pages isn't here to be controlled by the people we write about. It's one thing if something is blatantly untrue. It's another thing if they have these vane "I can't be categorized!" notions about themselves. If he's not gay, is he bi? If he's not bi, is he straight? "I'm none of those things, I'm my own creature! I hate you!" Pfft...whatever. --David Shankbone 21:40, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

• Comment - Please don't make personally-attacking comments about living people in AfD debates. FCYTravis (talk) 21:56, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

• Keep per notability for entertainers, the gay thing is sourced, and there is no deadline— so as long as there aren't BLP violations, I see no reason to delete. Granted, the notability is weak, too, but ironically as a direct result of the guy repeatedly trying to delete the bad publicity (WP:COI), it was actually revealed by other editors that he actually had significantly more verifiable coverage in secondary sources than I had initially thought. That is, I would have happily argued a delete due to notability issues, but as a direct result of the Streisand effect, it seems that the stuff the dude was trying to delete actually ended up helping to solidify grounds for inclusion. :P Let that be a lesson to future editors: always try to use the proper channels. --slakr 21:58, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

• Keep Brannan is notable per WP:BIO, not only for his music, but especially for the movie Shortbus (which also has a song of his) with sufficient reliable sources. All the other issues brought up by him and about him should continue to be addressed on the talk page. And please people, lets all assume good faith. — Becksguy (talk) 22:19, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
• Delete of questionable notability, article is potentially incorrect with few RS to fix it with and subject has requested deletion. Viridae 22:24, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
• Keep. The whole thing seems a bit ridiculous, honestly, the entire point of being an actor and musician is to become notable, otherwise you wouldn't seek the public eye. It seems the subject is upset about his article mentioning his homosexuality, which is another issue completely. If we delete it, and he continues on his career, eventually someone will recreate it as he becomes more notable. Snowfire51 (talk) 22:47, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
• Keep They guy certainly pass WP:BIO and encyclopedic integrity should be the priority here. Obviously being a BLP, and in the interest of getting it absolutely right, the subject's concerns should be heard and responded to but deleting the article is throwing out the baby with the bathwater. There is already serious discussion on the talk page about improving the article to address the known concerns. While it would be ideal for Mr. Brannan to cordially work with the article's editors to come to a speedy and more amicable resolution, if he wishes to persist in hostilities all we can do is rise above the fracas and focus on making the most encyclopedic and neutral article we can. Deletion just for the sake of deletion is not compatible with Misplaced Pages's encyclopedic mission. Agne/ 22:48, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

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