Talk:Islamophobia: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 10:41, 18 July 2005 editGermen (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users3,144 editsm →B Violent tendencies towards non-Muslims ← Previous edit		Revision as of 10:42, 18 July 2005 edit undoGermen (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users3,144 editsm →B Violent tendencies towards non-Muslims Next edit →
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	::::Germen is, indeed, interpolating citations in an completely original way so, in the sense you use and for the purposes of Misplaced Pages, he is "making it up as he goes along"... in other words, ] (or what was once called here as ]) as I have pointed out above in the Runnymede Definition section. None of the "evidence" Germen has submitted is usable unless he can actually demonstrate with his own reputable citations that others have applied it in the same way (i.e. to "disprove" the RD). I think this is clear and, without such evidence, his original reasoning can be safely ignored. ] 09:55, 18 July 2005 (UTC)		::::Germen is, indeed, interpolating citations in an completely original way so, in the sense you use and for the purposes of Misplaced Pages, he is "making it up as he goes along"... in other words, ] (or what was once called here as ]) as I have pointed out above in the Runnymede Definition section. None of the "evidence" Germen has submitted is usable unless he can actually demonstrate with his own reputable citations that others have applied it in the same way (i.e. to "disprove" the RD). I think this is clear and, without such evidence, his original reasoning can be safely ignored. ] 09:55, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
	:::::If you differ with me, ] as per Misplaced Pages policy. I did cite my sources, therefore I did not do original research. These are quotes from the YusufAli translation of the "Noble Qur'an". --] 10:35, 18 July 2005 (UTC)		:::::If you differ with me, ] as per Misplaced Pages policy. I did cite my sources, therefore I did not do original research. These are quotes from the YusufAli translation of the "Noble Qur'an". --] 10:35, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
	::::Please carefull read ] - the burden of proof to dispute the RD is with you, not I: please cite your sources that demonstrate that the RD has been disputed. Please do not ignore the points I raise above so I do not have to repeat myself. ] 10:38, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
	:'''Quran 47:4''' Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; at length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind (the captives) firmly: thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.		:'''Quran 47:4''' Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; at length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind (the captives) firmly: thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.
	:: If this is not a violent attitude towards non-Muslims, what is? --] 10:41, 18 July 2005 (UTC)		:: If this is not a violent attitude towards non-Muslims, what is? --] 10:42, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
	:'''Qur'an 5:51''' O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.		:'''Qur'an 5:51''' O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

Revision as of 10:42, 18 July 2005

Older talk is archived at Talk:Islamophobia/archive, Talk:Islamophobia/archive2, Talk:Islamophobia/archive3 and Talk:Islamophobia/archive4

Draft

I have created a draft version of this document so that we can all work on it to get an agreed version before the page protection expires so as to avoid edit wars. In particular, we should focus on the following issues: Axon

Introduction

The introduction is obviously the most contentious issue: what belongs here and what doesn't? Axon 10:12, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. The edit war concentrates on the introduction. I suggest to stick to the dictionary definition of 'islamophobia', which is clear and NPOV and move all POV content, such as the definitions of people like Said and the leftist Runnymede Trust to sections 'proponents' and 'critics'.

Islamophobia encompasses the belief that Islam promotes religious fanaticism, violent tendencies towards non-Muslims, terrorism and rejects concepts such as equality, tolerance, democracy and human rights. POV. 1. Empty word. What is religious fanatism? Every religion promotes adherence to the doctrines of the faith. 2. Islamic sources, e.g. Quran e.g. Surah At-Taubah, Hadith of Bukhari, Muslim etc contain orders to subjugate and kill non-Muslims. All scholars agree on this, there is only difference in POV on its scope. 3. Define terrorism. When terrorism is defined like 'violent actions towards non-combatants in order to strike fear in them in order to achieve political goals', jihad practice as described in the Qur'an and Sunnah fits the bill. 4. The Quran, Sunnah and, therefore, Shari'ah discriminates between men and women, Muslim and non-Muslim, idolator vs. "People of the Book". 5. Define tolerance. According to two madhdhabs, only people of the book can live as subjugated, 'protected', dhimmi's and continue practicing their religion under Muslim rule. According to the Shafi, polytheists as well can live as dhimmi's, while the austere Hanbali school doesn't recognize dhimmi's. 6. The Qur'an contains an injunction to rule by Allah's laws only, not by human law, otherwise, 'you will be among the losers'. 7. Islamic human rights are different from the UN Declaration of Human Rights. Exactly because of that reason, islamic countries have come with their own "Cairo Declaration".

It is seen as a new form of racial prejudice... With all due respect, this is weasel wording. Seen by whom? Many people see islamophobia as a consequence of violence by Muslims.

--Germen 1 July 2005 12:45 (UTC)

I see you are back, Germen. I hope we can all work together construcively and avoid some of the more unpleasant tactics we've seen here.

I hope this as well. Because I don't want to mobilize a group of supporters, I was forced to violate the 3RR rule in the past. --Germen 1 July 2005 16:40 (UTC)

You were forced to do no such thing: no-one held a gun to your head and made you revert the changes. If you wish to avoid the above impasse I ask you contribute to the discussion here constructively without recourse to calling out the muslims in the discussion and other such tactics. Axon 4 July 2005 10:36 (UTC)

A group of people tries to push their POV by misusing their number to revert again and again. In order to keep opinions balanced I was forced to revert more often than three times within 24 hours.

I think identifying the members of one group as Muslim is relevant to the discussion, because their POV is pro-Muslim and therefore biased. Muslims believe they get a kind of spiritual air miles, 'hasanat', to defend and whitewash their faith. --Germen 5 July 2005 11:31 (UTC)

Yet, you were warned about the 3RR. This is how Misplaced Pages works and, if you don't like it, I ask you either refrain from reverting or you move to another forum.

I think identifying Muslims is prejudiced and the essence of Islamophobia. On Misplaced Pages we are all equal and entitled to a fair say in the content of articles. Ones own biases and prejudices, including your own, are irrelevant to the discussion and are a show of bad faith. Axon 5 July 2005 11:42 (UTC)

This means next time, the group with the biggest number of supporters or generate sufficienty aliases to win the reversion war.

If you think that will improve the quality of Misplaced Pages, OK, go ahead. I was honest till now, because I believed in good faith.

Perhaps, but the 3RR is not there to ensure the POV with most numbers gains precedence, but to cap edit wars. You can always come back the next day and revert the edits. Once again, if you dislike the rules of Misplaced Pages that is fine but this is not the forum to do so. What is more, this is not a scientific discussion, no the House of Reprensentatives, nor Yale: this is an encyclopaedia that anyone can edit with its own special rules to deal with that. There are no excuses for violating the 3RR and an admin will block you if you breach it again, possibly resulting in further consequences. Axon 5 July 2005 17:49 (UTC)

I note you still maintain the defintion of islamophobia as it is defined by the Runnymede Trust et al is "disputed" but have yet to provide any alternative defintions with citations. This would be most helpful, otherwise we have no reason to believe the defintion is contested.

I think we already have an agreement: islamophobia = prejudice against islam and/or Muslims. This is an alternative, uncontested and clear definition of islamophobia.

In order to find out whether a certain negative POV about islam or Muslims is a prejudice, we must find out which is the objective truth. I will open a section in Talk especially about the Runnymede Trust definition where we will examine the claims. Agreed? --Germen 1 July 2005 16:40 (UTC)

No, because you have yet to demostrate the definition as provided by the Runnymede Trust is actually disputed by a non-significant minority at the very least (your own disagreement is not evidence of such). What is more, discovering the "objective truth" about Muslims is not what this article is about. If you wish to write about Muslims I ask you contribute to the Islam article. The "objective truth" about Muslims (such that it can exist over such a controversial subject) is irrelevant to writing an encyclopaedia article... we are not out to prove whether Islamophobia is justified or not (see WP:NOR). We are here to summarise existing knowledge in an encyclopaedic way. Axon 4 July 2005 10:36 (UTC)

Argumentum ad populum. I gave you the concise definition of islamophobia in reputed online dictionaries. The Runnymede Trust Definition violates this definition and is internally inconsistent as I proved.

The Runnymede Trust is a partisan, leftist organisation with the stated goal to promote a so-called "multicultural society".

So this means both the source and the quality of the definition is disputed. QED.--Germen 5 July 2005 11:25 (UTC)

Sorry, but your line of reasoning above does not follow. Simply because some consider the Runnymede Trust to be biased it does not naturally follow (QED) that the definition they provide is similarly disputed. What is more, the two defintions do not seem inconsistent to me.

Again, this is just your POV and you need to demonstrate it is more than just a no-significant minority view (i.e. not just your own) to satisfy the basic rules of inclusion for Misplaced Pages - that is, a primary or secondary source offering an alternative defintion or dissenting or criticising the Runnymede definition. Your own "logic" is irrelevant to the discussion. I'm certainly not going to discuss the inconsitency or lack thereof the Runnymede Definition (I shall refer to this as the RD from now on) since that would be original research and this is not the forum for that.

Side note: could you also indent all your comments, including subsequent paragraphs and not just the first. This helps with clarity and figuring out who said wait. Cheers :) Axon 5 July 2005 12:44 (UTC)

I would also like to point out that a lot of your points above are spurious. We have to accept some common ground (i.e. the definition of religious fanatacism) otherwise there would seem to be little discussion/ Again, you are really just re-stating your opinion as uncontested fact ("Islamic human rights are different", etc) without considering that we are attempting to discuss the definition of islamophobia, not whether that definition applies. Axon 1 July 2005 16:26 (UTC)

OK, we will concentrate on the definition of islamophobia first. We both agree to the dictionary definition of islamophobia: any prejudice about Islam or Muslims. --Germen 1 July 2005 16:40 (UTC)

--Germen 5 July 2005 17:35 (UTC)

With all due respect, the christophobia entry allows for the POV of Christian haters which practically defines the term and does say that christophobia is brought on by the past violence of "Christians". This article should probably do the same. I didn't think that encyclopedias were supposed to be p.c. and subject to 'popular' thought.

The RMT definition is overly broad. It's entriely possible for non prejudiced people to beleive that:

Islam promotes religious fanaticism

Taliban existed in one country.

violent tendencies towards non-Muslims

These were strictly military expeditions.

terrorism

and rejects concepts such as

1. equality

This hasn't been practiced in centuries and it was tolerant for its time.

1. tolerance

This hasn't either and it was very tolerant for its time.

1. democracy

This is an islamic empire.

1. human rights

Only a few countries practice this.

because quite simply because Orthodox Islam as promoted and practiced by most muslims fulfills every quality of the RMT definition of Islamophobia. Far better to define Islamophobia as a hatred of or prejudice against muslims. That is the plain meaning of the word, and the rest is commentary. Klonimus 05:05, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

What occurs on the "Christanophobia" article is irrelevant to the discussion here: it is best you discuss problems with that page at the appropriate talk page. I'm surprised that such a page even exists given that it is patently a neologism created purely in reaction to islamophobia and homophobia.

Encylopaedias are not supposed to be "subject to 'popular' thought" but are supposed to summarise existing knowledge, not generate new knowledge. Please familiarise yourself with WP:NOR and the extensive discussion above and below on this very topic.

Finally, Do you have any actual evidence to back up the claim that the RD is "overly broad", other than spurious links to other Misplaced Pages articles? Axon 11:50, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Islamophobia and the Crusades

Germen removed a section in the original version on the crusades and how it relates to islamophobia. I think this should be added back to the article, but with citation. I propose a call for comments and references on this topic. Axon 10:12, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Crusades were wars. Christian pilgrims were attacked and they tried to defend themselves. Do you want to say that since Christians did not surrender lamely and tried to fight back, therefore they are prejudiced against Islam? I, for one, won't be surprised. 70.105.188.134 23:57, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Really, what source are you using? Your recent contributions indicate a highly anti-Islamic "source".--Anonymous editor 00:03, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)

All contributions you've made till date to Misplaced Pages are biased and highly pro-Islamic (Islamophillic). But that's not the point. Read any trusted source on crusades. The wikipedia article would be a good starting point.

I look forward to finding these so-called "trusted" sources, perhaps they are other hindu extremist ones like you have used in the past to add biased information to articles. You are saying that Christian pilgrims tried to "defend" themselves and so genocide of civilian population was justified? Ridiculous. The christians were indeed prejudiced against Islam, thats why the Pope's call to war was so successful. The constant calls to war made zealous christians eager to go to the lands and "fight". Everyone knows it was fear of the Muslims in this case, especially Muslim expansion. Any credible source, even Christian ones will tell you that. Anyways I don't know why you are bringing this up when the article is already locked for disputes. Thanks. --Anonymous editor 05:36, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)

This article is protected from editing "until disputes have been resolved on the discussion page." I don't know what are you saying about why this should not be brought up. Please read wikipedia policies. Locking does not mean that the locked version is endorsed by wikipedia. It was a good strategy to make the article correspond as closely to your POV as possible, and get it locked immediately. Yes, of course it was fear of Muslim expansion, as you said. But where exactly do you find irrationality or prejudice in that? What else could be have been expected? Christians welcoming Muslim invaders with open arms? As mentioned earlier, the wikipedia article on crusades provides fairly good elementary information about the reasons behind the crusades. Please read it. Additionally, you might want to read the causes of crusades section of the Encylopedia Britannica article on crusades. I dont't think I need to pin point at particular portions of these article. Tell me if I do. It is at best, an undefendable POV that the crusades represented Christian prejudices against Islam, or were a symptom of an irrational fear of Islam. 70.105.188.134 06:40, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Funny, the dispute was not mine. It was between Germen and other users. I just got here a day ago. Please get your facts straight before accusing me of having a "good strategy to get the article locked". Btw, "fear of Muslims" as you wrote = Islamophobia and there was prejudice against Muslims in the Christian world of the crusades, resulting in so many volunteers to the Pope's call to fight them. And the article you cited is not from the Encyclopedia Britannica. Thanks. --Anonymous editor 06:46, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)

Not at all. Only a few editors like you have claimed "fear of muslims = islamophobia", which has been debated even by the proponents of the term. I would go by the more established definition: "prejudice against Islam and Muslims." I didn't even say "fear of muslims". I said "fear of muslim expansion." What makes you think it was prejudice against Muslims that led Christians defend themselves and try to recover occupied territories including their holy cities? I am not surprised you are following double standards here too: While muslims were justified in invading the Byzantine empire, occupying Spain, destroying the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem and persecuting pilgrims, Christians were irrational in even fearing Muslim expansion into their territories. 70.105.188.134 07:02, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Please read more on the crusades as you are clearly misinformed by what they were, or how many there were and why did they occur so many times in prolongated periods. I have no time to sit here and have you accuse me of "Double standards" when I didn't even really add/remove from the article. If you have a personal problem with Muslims, please deal with it rather then making extensive debates on talk pages. Thanks. --Anonymous editor 07:07, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)

The article is from the eleventh edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica, first published in 1911, and now in public domain. Your quick reply suggests you did not read any of these articles. 70.105.188.134 07:08, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Your lack of knowledge says the same. Anyways, I don't really care to carry this any longer as there is no motive, beside your constant rants, quick false accusations, and lack of knowledge on the subject. I am sure the other editors here who know history will be happy enough to debate with you. Thanks. --Anonymous editor 07:11, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)

Another very typical behavior. When nothing else works, just say "you know nothing." Seriously, there's not point talking to you.

Indeed, Anonymous. This is a common discussion technique among Muslims (like Anonymous editor). They mimick it from the Quran, in which Muhammad stated: "Allah knows what you do not know", after he was confronted with some critical questions of non-Muslims. So they follow qiyaas (Arab for 'analogy'). Too bad it doesn't help to advance science in this way. For that reason, human development in Arab countries is extremely low. --Germen 5 July 2005 11:58 (UTC)

Readers, please read about the causes of crusades and be cautious of the logical fallacy of argumentum ad populum. Articles such as this one are nurtured by sheer numbers of editors and administrators who want to use wikipedia as a platform to promote certain ideologies. 70.105.188.134 07:25, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If you wish to give yourself some more credibility I ask that you register a user name and log into Misplaced Pages, familiarising yourself with our poliicies, in particular NPOV. Your comments above and the IP address you are editing (its history includes vandalism of a user's talk page) do not do your argument any favors. Previous experience has taught many of us to be wary of anonymous comments.

That aside, though the Arabs were by no means innocent of bloodshed, to characterise the crusades simply as the Christians "defending themselves" against hostile muslims is not accurate either. This is all irrelevant: many have compared the current islamophobic climate with the climate of the crusades and thus the point need be raised in the discussion of this article. How that is done depends much on how constructively you engage in discourse on this talk page. Axon 09:18, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You are right that it is irrelevant. Even if it were true that the Christians were the agressors and entirely responsible for the wars, it does not mean Islamophobia. Nobody would claim that the wars between England and France imply any phobias although the terms Francophobia and Anglophobia do exist. Please cite trustable sources (which do not include quran.ca and khalifah.org)on who are these many people who have compared the "current islamophobic climate" with the climate of the crusades. Also, since this comparision does not amount to saying that crusades were a manifestation of Islamophobia, if you happen to have any authentic sources, I think still the article should contain exactly what you just said: "many have compared the current islamophobic climate with the climate of the crusades" and not something that implies that "the history of Islamophobia goes back to the crusades." I always include my IP (which identifies me uniquely.) Please refrain from changing the topic and resorting to personal slander. 70.105.188.134 17:51, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Indeed, Axon frequently resorts to personal slander. --Germen 5 July 2005 11:48 (UTC)

I dispute the accusation of slander: I clearly ask people to confirm if they are the parties responsible and have not made any accusations. In the above case i was quite correct that teh anon IP had been vandalising IP addresses (see evidence below). Axon 5 July 2005 17:35 (UTC)

If you read my starting remark you will see I started this discussion with an open call for citations and references on this topic.

I'm not making personal slanders... if that IP address marks you uniquely, then you have previously vandalised a user's page here, here and here. As we've seen, unpleasant activity from anon IPs have caused us other problems on this page. Axon 19:33, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Why, then, even in the absence of any references, you are still adamant to keep this highly POV Christianity bashing speculation in the article? 70.105.188.134

I'm not adamant about anything, I'm just asking for a call of references for the inclusion of this content. If there are no references to source this material, I agree it should not be in the ariticle. Given time, though, I'm sure some references can be found to back this up.

BTW, do you have anything to say about your vandalising of user's pages above? Axon 19:43, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

More slandering of Axon. Talking about hypocrisy.... --Germen 5 July 2005 11:48 (UTC)

Once again, there is evidence of the vandlising above and I quite clearly am asking for information about whether the user has or has not vandalised user pages. I see no reason I should not ask. Axon 5 July 2005 17:35 (UTC)

Normally it works this way: You first read about the topic, find a lot of references stating a particular position, and then you decide to include it in the article.

It does not work this way: You first write whatever you would love people to believe, let it stay as long as people don't object, and when people object, just keep it there and wait for an indefinite time wishing some references would spring up. This page is meant to discuss the article on Islamophobia. Please don't bring other issues here. 70.105.188.134 20:12, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I've always wanted to ask: does bolding or capitalising your comments ever actually convince anyone of anything? It must do as so many editors (see above) seem to resort to it.

I wasn't aware there was a right and wrong way of calling for references for writing articles! Which Misplaced Pages policy or guideline are you referring to above?

That aside, a google test returns 3k+ hits for islamophobia and the Crusades (some of which are mirrors of this article) demonstrating the link has been made before by others before. An article in the New Statesman also seems to make reference to this link as well as the following paper/book: Constructing the Muslim Enemy Edited by Emran Qureshi and Michael A. Sells. Now, that's what I call a constructive contribution to the dialogue. Axon 28 June 2005 13:34 (UTC)

On "other issues": I don't see how the subject is seperate to this discussion. All three incidents seem related to editing on Islam-related pages, bear a stricking resemblence to bad-faith remarks made elsewhere on this talk page and do require some explanation to help build the trust and confidence that is the hallmark of cooperative Misplaced Pages editing.

With this in mind, I once again ask you to explain these edits to user pages. Were you responsible for these edits? If so, why did you do it and will you do it again? Can I expect my user page to be vandalised? Axon 28 June 2005 16:11 (UTC)

And more unnuendo and slandering.... --Germen 5 July 2005 11:48 (UTC)

Once again, Germen, you accusastions of slander are misplaced. I'm clearly asking for confirmation and an explanation and not making an accusation. Given the behaviour of yourself and other anonymous IPs on this page I think this is fully justified. if you did not want to be "slandered" you should not have indulged in your own reprehensible behaviour (violating the 3RR etc) and broken down the trust on this page. Axon 5 July 2005 17:35 (UTC)

Interesting, your IP signs one of it's remarks here as deeptrivia. This would mean not only did you vandalise user pages but you also attempted to vote twice on the VfD for Islamophilia, once as 70.105.188.134 and again as Deeptrivia . You also appear to have attempted to similarly vote twice on the Vfd for Persecution of Muslims. Please explain? Are you and Deeptrivia the same person? Axon 28 June 2005 16:21 (UTC)

More slander.... --Germen 5 July 2005 11:48 (UTC)

Once again, the edit history clearly confirms this and Deeptrivia has yet to deny this. I am not making slander, I am asking for an explanation to the evidence I have found here. Axon 5 July 2005 17:35 (UTC)

Whoa! After Axon's convincing demonstration that many people have linked Islamophobia with the Crusades, no doubt should be left. Following his footsteps, I found out that there are many other things that people have attributed to the crusades. I think the first step towards improving the factual accuracy of Misplaced Pages would be to mention crusades on all these pages:

Rugby 108,000 + hits
Television 729,000 + hits
Internet 885,000 + hits
Cloning 57,700 hits
Lesbianism 7,700 hits
Photography 182,000 hits
Anti-semitism 95,000 hits
Communism 170,000 hits
Cybercrime 3500+ hits
Organic farming 19,000 + hits
atom bomb 50,000 + hits

and many more.

This was an eye-opener for me because I did not know the crusades were so important in the history. But the way, the articles you mentioned just says that Islam is mentioned in British textbooks only for its confrontation with the West during Crusades (the word is used only once in the article). Although that doesn't prove anything that you want to prove, the google test by itself is the most convincing proof of anything I've ever seen. 130.203.202.156 29 June 2005 00:31 (UTC)

Please register and login: anonymous user's are generally distrusted. To respond to your rather over-elaborated point, I supply other evidence to back up the assertion a comparison between current islamophobia and the Crusades (which you selectively choose to ignore) and not just the Google test to demonstrate the link has been made. Your comments above are in bad faith, and are not really constructive. If you have any actual evidence or citations, please mention them and refrain from silly remarks.

I also notice that this IP address has also been vandalising user pages and shares a editing history similarity with other logins/IPs. Please verify, are you the anonymous IP address that has been commenting on this talk page and who may be Deeptrivia. Axon 29 June 2005 01:06 (UTC)

Yes, and I object to your hawkish attitude. My point might be witty, but it is not in bad faith. I am concerned about the degrading standard of wikipedia. I was shocked by the pathetic quality of arguments some editors have been presenting in an attempt to justify the inclusion of crusades in this article. I commented on the other accessible source that you pointed out, , which does not prove anything at all. I don't intend to buy an expensive book written by Emran Qureshi et al. which would either be like rest of the sources, just containing the word crusade in some unrelated context, or simply some Mein Kampf kind of book. In any case, Emran Qureshi is not even a historian. deeptrivia 29 June 2005 02:46 (UTC)

My IP is 130.203.202.156 Thank you. deeptrivia 29 June 2005 02:53 (UTC)

PS: This is a University IP which might be shared by others. deeptrivia 29 June 2005 02:59 (UTC)

PPS: By the way, what evidence do you want me to present? Since you are making a claim, you have to present evidence. If someone tells me that Martians were involved in the Trafalgar 'battle' , it is not my responsibility to find sources that disprove it, and I am sure none would exist. deeptrivia 29 June 2005 03:08 (UTC)

I removed the reference to the Crusades because they were a consequence rather than a reason for islamophobia. It would be more logically sound to mention the conquest of the vast Christian territories of North Africa and the Middle East and the endless Muslim invasions of Spain and southern Italy as a plausible reason for 'islamophobia'. --Germen 1 July 2005 12:56 (UTC)

As we can see from the above evidence I have provided, the comparison between the current climate of Islamophobia and the Crusades has been made before, at least by a signicant minority and in respectable publications like the New Statesmen. For this reason, I hold that this should be noted in the article. Axon 4 July 2005 13:40 (UTC)

You have not provided any solid evidence, you repeated islamic and leftist propaganda. The New Statesman is, according to Misplaced Pages, known as a leftist journal. Please state the logical chain connecting crusades as a cause and islamophobia as a consequence. As long as you cannot prove your bold assertion, this claim does not belong in the introduction. --Germen 5 July 2005 11:41 (UTC)

As clearly pointed out by deeptrivia, the Statesman article that you are showing as evidence just says in one line: " at my own school, I came across Islam only in the negative and confrontational context of the Crusades." It doesn't even come close to saying that the crusades were caused due to/in spite of/ were a result of Islamophobia. At the very best, this describes the Islamophobia of the British authors who wrote these textbooks a few decades back. You are yet to show any credible evidence. 141.151.236.224 4 July 2005 17:23 (UTC)

Exactly. --Germen 5 July 2005 11:41 (UTC)

Please register and login - remarks and comments from anonymous IPs will be treated by suspicion on this page, given the high incidence of hostile anonymous IPs editing on the subject of Islam.

No-one is claiming that: what we are examining is the relationship between the Crusades and Islamophobia as highlighted in the article and references above.

Some more references:

Today Europe relishes in the propaganda against Islam, creating myths and stereotypes and perpetuating them in order to create a climate of Islamophobia. Words like Saracens, barbaric and Infidels where created in the past to negatively and wrongly stereotype Muslims and today they have been replaced by words like Terrorist, Fundamentalist or Extremists we often see in the western media.

Private webpage. Not very objective as a source. Further: I agree, we should call Muslim terrorists, fundamentalists and extremists pious Muslims, as they follow the example of their "Prophet"Muhammad (pbuh). --Germen 5 July 2005 11:53 (UTC)

Perhaps, but I think i've provided more than enough reputable sources to demonstrate the association has been made before. Axon 5 July 2005 17:28 (UTC)

We cannot afford the easy, facile prejudices that inform thinking about Islam and have since the middle ages. When I was in Jerusalem, I saw that our tradition of Islamophobia developed, at the time of the crusades, at exactly the same time as our tradition of Jewish anti-Semitism. The two were linked, and in the 20th century we saw where such bigoted thinking could lead. We simply cannot afford to do it again. Axon 4 July 2005 17:29 (UTC)

As I requested before: please state the locical connection between crusades as a cause and islamophobia as a consequence. If you cannot do so, acknowledge. --Germen 5 July 2005 11:53 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm not sure what you are getting at here. I'm discussing the relationship between islamophobia and The Crusades, a comparison which has clearly been made before. I'm certainly not trying to state that islamophobia was a consequence of the Crusades, logical or otherwise, just that The Crusades was a period of islamophobia as we would define it today. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, but constructive contributions to the discussion are welcome. Axon 5 July 2005 17:26 (UTC)

Axon please summarize all the reputable sources that you said you have mentioned, showing clear comparision between the crusades and Islamophobia, so that it is convenient for us to go through them. I went through the whole conversation again, and couldn't find any. Also, I hope, according to Misplaced Pages Policy, Mein Kampf cannot be used as a source to justify that Judaism and Communism are the twin evils of the world, and that Aryans are the master race. I mean to say, not all published books are valid sources. The credibility of the author is important. 130.203.202.156 5 July 2005 20:44 (UTC)

I almost hate to intrude, but I had always linked the two myself. Of course, since I am not published, no one could use me as a source. Nice to see we've invoked Godwin's Law a second time here, though! Perhaps reference to the far less than credible Protocols of the Elders of Zion would have been more approrpiate? --Habap 5 July 2005 21:06 (UTC)

I would ignore the remarks from anon IPs: that one looks like one of Germen's IPs, but it is difficult to be sure although the edits the IP makes mirror his own closely. It could also be Deeptrivia who is known for logging in anonymously. I lose track. I leave it as an exercise for individuals to find my citations above since I can't be bothered to sift through the endless commentary above and below. Axon 5 July 2005 21:47 (UTC)

Actually, it's me. I keep forgetting to log in. Now, can you kindly summarize the sources. I failed to find any reputable source. deeptrivia July 5, 2005 23:46 (UTC)

It is a fact that right before the crusades started Muslims invaded Turkey which was Christian (remember Constantine?) at the time, and then the Pope called for the defense of Christian lands. I would say they awoke the sleeping giant. (comment by User:152.163.100.6 )

In absence of any sources, I think it is high time to finally decide to remove the alleged causal relationship between crusades and Islamophobia. deeptrivia 02:42, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

I did note reputable several sources above (Guardian, a book on the subject, New Statesmen, etc). The google test demonstrates numerous examples of people contrasting islamophobia with the crusades. Please do not ignore the comments and sources I took time and effort to dig out otherwise you waste my time. Axon 13:43, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Please address the objections raised against these sources in the preceding talk. For example, the New Statesman article "describes the Islamophobia of the British authors who wrote these textbooks a few decades back." (comment by 141.151.236.224 4 July 2005 17:23 (UTC)) deeptrivia 04:48, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

I believe i have addressed the concerns above. Once again, I'm not going to go through all this again (hours of pointless, incompromising talk) just to because you demand it. If there is anything you think I missed or didn't properly respond to I recommend you wade through the discussion above yourself and precis them in a new section below. The above is too incomprehensible to me, mostly thanks to people not properly formatting their comments. Axon 08:50, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Your belief is wrong, you have not provided even a spat of evidence. --Germen 11:56, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Runnymede Trust Definition

Islam is seen as a monolithic bloc, static and unresponsive to change.

Islam is seen as separate and 'other'. It does not have values in common with other cultures, is not affected by them and does not influence them.

Islam is seen as inferior to the West. It is seen as barbaric, irrational, primitive and sexist.

Islam is seen as violent, aggressive, threatening, supportive of terrorism and engaged in a 'clash of civilisations'.

Islam is seen as a political ideology and is used for political or military advantage.

Criticisms made of the West by Islam are rejected out of hand.

Hostility towards Islam is used to justify discriminatory practices towards Muslims and exclusion of Muslims from mainstream society.

Anti-Muslim hostility is seen as natural or normal.

In order to validify the Runnymede Trust Definition, we have to check whether the eight statements above are the result of prejudice, i.e. whether they are true or false.

My bit: 1. Muslims are not a monolithic block, but the Islamic source materials, Qur'an and sahih hadith, are generally considered as unchanged and authoritative. Most Muslims feel more solidarity with other Muslims than with infidels, even if the infidels are not at fault. This is manifest by the outrage about the fate of the Palestinians (2000 dead) while mass murder by fellow Muslim in Darfur (200 000+ dead) is ignored. /

2. Islamic theology has a word, bid'a, for non-islamic cultural innovations from other cultures. Mainstream islamic theology rejects bid'a. Nevertheless, there is cultural exchange between islam and other civilizations, of course. Not because of islamic theology, but despite of it. /

3. From a Western point of view, islamic theology, islamic jurisprudence as well as islamic civilization do not match to Western standards at those points, e.g. hand-cutting, stoning, women get half of the share of men, killing of apostates, rejection of rational scepsis, killing gays. Refer: al-Ghazali.Counterexamples are welcome. /

4. Most Muslims think this way, as is manifest from opinion polls. They get their ideas from islamic theology. Both Qur'an and Sunnah differentiate between the Muslims and the infidels and consider the non-Muslims as enemies. /

5. The dominant fundamentalist POV does so. Moderate muslims don't want or cannot stop them. /

6. OK, valid, but it can be a manifestation of chauvinism as well. /

7. Unclear sentence. How can "hostility" justify discrimination? Besides: this is not a prejudice, this is discriminatory behaviour resulting from "hostility", which means, I guess, negative prejudice. So it doesn't belong in the definition. /

8. Hostility towards criminals, racists and neonazis is "seen as normal" too, because they harm their fellow human beings. It should be studied whether there is a valid reason for this hostility. Therefore I press for an analysis of supposed prejudices. --Germen 1 July 2005 17:35 (UTC)

No offence, but your dissent with the definition is irrelavant to this article and the discussion on this page. See WP:NOR. Axon 4 July 2005 14:02 (UTC)

No offence, but you use this "Runnymede Definition" to support your definition of 'islamophobia'. This makes it relevant. Please read your preceding comments. --Germen 5 July 2005 11:16 (UTC)

Start Quote from AxonI note you still maintain the defintion of islamophobia as it is defined by the Runnymede Trust et al is "disputed" but have yet to provide any alternative defintions with citations. This would be most helpful, otherwise we have no reason to believe the defintion is contested.End quote from Axon

I don't really understand your point here: both my remarks you quote seem to back each other up. I asked you to demonstrate evidence that the defintion is disputed and you have yet to do so. Your own disagreement is not adequate evidence of dispute and, hence, irrelevant. Again, please refer to WP:NOR and other Misplaced Pages policies. Axon 5 July 2005 11:45 (UTC)

I have demonstrated the Runnymede Trust Definition is inconsistent both with the dictionary definition and with itself. Hence it is disputed. You sound like a Middle Ager who refers to Aristotle instead of opening its mouth and counting, in order to find out how much teeth a horse has.--Germen 5 July 2005 12:04 (UTC)

Have you? You have described why you feel the Runnymede Trust Definition is inconsistent. This is not the same thing. Once again, I advise you to familiarise yourself with the workings of Misplaced Pages and the no original research rule and why we have it. From one perspective, we are like the Middle Ager in that counting the horses teeth would be original research, but this is the nature of an encyclopedia and not a research journal. Axon 5 July 2005 12:33 (UTC)

Logical deduction and synthesis is considered as legitimate for writers, see your link. Besides, I would like to point to more critic on the islamophobia concept as defined by the Runnymede Trust:

"Logical deduction and synthesis is considered as legitimate for writers" Not on Misplaced Pages it isn't and nowhere on the NOR page does it mention that original deducation and synthesis, especially as above, are permitted. Axon 5 July 2005 14:45 (UTC)

http://www.cddc.vt.edu/host/lnc/papers/Richardson_04_09_Islamophobia.doc

Stay Strong

Stay strong my brothers, Yuber and Axon and Mustafaa. We will defeat the kafir and we will have the kalifah once more. It is only a matter of time. Fight them here and everywhere.

Constructive comments welcommed, snarky silliness will be ignored. If you want to see a more neutral version please get involved constructively. Axon 09:21, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Agree with Axon. Sounds like a user who knows one or two Islamic terms making a silly comment, nothing more. --Anonymous editor 20:06, Jun 25, 2005 (UTC)

Well, I'm deeply offended. If you're going to attack their objectivity by making snide remarks about their religion ... what am I, chopped liver? It's kind of like failing to make Nixon's enemies' list. :) BrandonYusufToropov 28 June 2005 19:10 (UTC)

I think it makes more sense to look at objective arguments than to take resort to name-calling. For the record: Yuber, Mustafaa, BrandonYusufToporov and "Anonymous User" are all Muslims. I am not a Muslim and I do admit I have a negative POV on islam: according to me the world would be a better place without islam.

I have valid, objective reasons for this view, i.e. Quran, Sunnah, fatwa's and Muslim records at several theaters. Therefore I believe a NPOV approach will be sufficient to defend my view. --Germen 1 July 2005 13:04 (UTC)

Um... theaters? Can you elaborate on this? BrandonYusufToropov 5 July 2005 17:37 (UTC)

I refer to Muslim political and militant activism in several countries in Africa (Egypt, Algeria, Nigeria, Sudan etc.), Europe (Netherlands, Bosnia, Kosovo, Chechnya/Dagestan, France) and Asia (Saudi-Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Jordania, Turkey, Yemen, Pakistan, Afghanistan, India (Kashmir etc.), Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines). Everywhere in the world Muslims harass, torture, rob, rape and intimidate non-Muslims or secular Muslims. Only areas without Muslims are free from this problem. --Germen 5 July 2005 17:53 (UTC)

An interesting perspective. I have to confess, though, I'm still muddled. By "theaters," do you mean "cinematic and/or dramatic exhibition venues" or "theaters of war"? BrandonYusufToropov 5 July 2005 18:07 (UTC)

The second meaning :) --81.58.29.90 21:25, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

So, you admit the anonymous personal attack you made above, was you? How do you think making this kind of comment helps to resolving the issues here? It is frustrating getting blocked, but you only have yourself to blame for breaking the 3RR and taking petty revenge as above is a show of bad faith and a breach of Misplaced Pages policy. If you are responsible for the above remarks, I ask, as a gesture of good will, you apologise and confirm that you will not do this again.

What is more, the religous convictions of editors is also irrelevant to the discussion here. It should be discounted during discussion here. Axon 1 July 2005 16:38 (UTC)

I did not make the first comment in this section. --Germen 1 July 2005 16:43 (UTC)

And the religious convictions of authors influence their opinions about religion deeply, so their opinion about them as well. They are shareholders in the stock of their religion. Hope this will sink in your American brain. --Germen 5 July 2005 17:53 (UTC)

As do your own right-wing prejudices, but that is besides the point as regardless of whether you are muslim, a member of the BNP or all view poits in between, on Misplaced Pages your view carries equal currency. However, calling out the muslims as being somehow untrustworthy is racist, IMHO, and I ask you to refrain from doing so. What is more, your own personal attacks against me and assumptions about me do you no favors: FYI I'm a UK citizen. Axon 5 July 2005 17:59 (UTC)

1. Being critical about islam is not right-wing.

2. It is racist to attribute human qualities because of their race. Muslims are not a race, they are adherents of islam. So attributing qualities to muslims is not racist. 3. Muslims MUST defend their faith, it is considered a part of jihad, i.e. jihad with the mouth (see Bukhari). They cannot be neutral in this issue, otherwise they commit a sin and risk hell-fire. These are the facts, you can verify them in all complete sahih hadith collections. I do not say muslims are untrustworthy, I say most Muslims cannot be impartial regarding their faith. 4. So you are Briton. Too bad, even you haven't learned your lesson about islam now. Fortunately many of your countrymen are wiser than you.

--21:24, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

If anti-semetism can be generally considered racist, I see no reason to not consider islamophobia racist either. Regardless, I find you ignoring my original point: your tactic of calling out the muslims is, if we cannot agree racist, prejudiced and bigotted and I ask you desist, as much for the sake of your own argument, as for the general civility of discussion on this page. We all have our own POV here, but the point is to get past these.

Racism means the belief in both human races and believing race is a major cause of human action. Antisemitism (when definied as antijudaism) is racist when it is directed to the Jews as an ethnic group, Muslims are not a race but adherents of the religion of islam, therefore anti-muslim bias is not racist. --Germen 14:47, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

The same argument you use for anti-semetism above can be used for Islamophobia. Axon 15:44, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I think we have learnt our lesson about Islam: in Britian we live with muslims closely, I have several muslims friends and generally the communities get on very well. Except for one or two unpleasant examples, there has been much support of the muslim community from all British quarters despite recent events. It makes me proud to be British, for once, and I thank you for noting it even if your point is in the poorest taste. Axon 13:34, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Fortunately most British do not share your point of view and they are slowly awakening as we in Holland already have. Considering your utopic view on the peacefulness of our Muslim friends, I would like te refer to this report: http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?PageID=811

Yes, fortunately. I guess you think the death of an innocent 48 year old Pakistani man the other day to be very fortunate. Actually, if you read further down the page you'll see Germen chuckling at the story. You are becoming just as bad as the terrorists themselves. How long before we see you killing innocents in revenge?Heraclius 15:10, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Of course I deplore the killing of innocents. I do not advocate this kind of illegal actions. But it is a fact that a majority of Muslims support suicide bombings with conditions, support terrorist activity and wish islamic influence increases. See the report up here. Obviously, there is a huge problem within the Muslim community and we have the right to implore them to eliminate radical elements and thoughts in order to protect our own safety. Suicide bombers base their actions on the writings of Sayyid Qutb and other thinkers like al-Ghazali, which base themselves in turn on Qur'an and sahih Hadith. A critical attitude of the non-Muslim population towards this violent elements within islam is essential in order to promote the much-needed reform within the islamic community. This is not racist, this is common sense. --Germen 15:28, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Strawman much? I really don't have the faintest idea what you are talking about or why you would attribute such claims to myself. Please be warned: your incivil remarks may also constitute a personal attack.

Fortunately most British do not share your point of view Don't they? One study from an obscure source does not demonstrate this adequately to me. Axon 15:21, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Interesting findings: most Muslims consider themselves Muslim rather than citizen of their country, most Muslims want Islam to play a bigger role in the world and in their country, support of suicide bombings is massive, .... (anyhow, read yourself). OK, anyhow, good luck with self-destructing your country. --Germen 14:47, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

My country seems to be doing pretty well at the moment and, from where I'm sitting, I can't see much sign of destruction, self-inflicted or otherwise, thanks. Axon 15:21, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

OK, let's see. The proof of the pudding is the eating. --Germen 15:28, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Solving the unsolvable

I voted to keep this page on its VfD, and it has since errupted into an edit war. I think I echo others when I say that articles such as this are doomed to POV, not becuase they are inherently so, but because of the number of people with axes to grind, subconscious or otherwise, who are determined to bend the article over and fuck any usefulness in an attempt to perusade us that Islam is right/wrong, leaving nothing encyclopedic or useful. Hence, I propose that we ask for someone who has no previous knowledge or experience of Islam to do some research from a few books and come up with a shorter, far more encyclopedic article. Failing that, the article ought to be stripped to its barest of bones, a few basic statements of fact (areas found in, organizations found in, a very brief history) and a dictionary definition that are indisputable. Any additions could then be discussed before being added. Stephen 30 June 2005 01:08 (UTC)

I'm not sure if the above remarks are entirely helpful in settling the dispute. All constructive comments and edits you can make are gratefully received, but the more inflammatory editors (i.e. Germen and Yuber) no longer seem to be involved in this page and those who are left have been attempting to find a reasonable compromise by editing the draft and discussing references.

I'm not sure what a person can do about any "subconscious" biases they might have, but I'd still like to give the traditional Misplaced Pages method a go. I have posted this article for a RfC, although we are yet to get anyone helping out here from the RfC - not sure if I did it correctly! If you would like to create a seperate draft of your reduced version of the article in a sub-namespace here, however, that would be useful.

It is also worth pointing out that some editors dispute the "dictionary" definition of Islamophobia: nothing is quite so clear cut. I ask you familiarise yourself with the various points of dissent above. Axon 30 June 2005 09:31 (UTC)

Responding to RfC... Axon, do you really need another editor to tell you this?? Germen's argumentation has been ridiculous: he counters your good-faith attempts to find neutral references with cites from the lunatic fringe; he responds to your good-faith attempts to argue with ad hominem attacks that basically state that those coming from the Muslim point of view inherently lack credibility; he refuses to answer honest questions by accusing you of slander; he consistently makes outrageous Nazi analogies; he's probably sockpuppeting; etc. etc. etc. You should get a higher-up to set him straight. Dcarrano 02:49, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

I'm with Dcarrano on this. Germen is not acting in good faith and is apparently Islamaphobic himself. Sigh. --Habap 13:36, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

I have considered putting him up for an RfA especially considering his recent actions. I would like to give him a chance first, on this talk page, so any contributions you guys can make to the discourse above would be gratefull received. Axon 13:38, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

I think an RFC would be more suitable at this stage. ~~~~ 19:56, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

There is already an RfC for this page: do you mean an RfC specific to the user? Axon 08:46, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

People who cannot win by arguments are resolving to baser means of achieving their goal. I already have received several complaints of people that Islam-critical articles get censorec here, even when references and sources were sufficient.

--Germen 14:56, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Page protection

I'm trying to figure out if we need to keep the page protected. Things seem to have calmed down a bit, but I'm not sure I yet see consensus on what the page ought to say. Noel (talk) 19:43, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Despite the fact this page is a version preferred by Germen, I would recommend we keep this page protected for now. Judging from the comments above, further edit wars would not be unlikely at this point. No real agreement has been made and disruptive behaviour is breaking out on pagesa round this one (see Prejudice (islam) and Prejudices (islam) and the VfD there) for example. Axon 08:47, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to add a link to the external links section. Maybe someone could add it when the page is unlocked? Or if I remember, I'll come back and do it. It's here:

"Islamophobia blamed for attack" by Vikram Dodd, The Guardian, July 13, 2005

It's an article about a man from Pakistan beaten to death in the UK by young men who shouted "Taliban" before they killed him. The Muslim community is angry because the police registered the attack as racist, instead of Islamophobic. It might be an interesting point to make in the article — that incidents that are possibly Islamophobic are being wrongly classified and it's therefore hard to keep track of numbers. Cheers, SlimVirgin 10:04, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

So, islamophobia IS something different than racism? From the horses' mouth. Hehehe. --Germen 15:05, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I think you're confusing me with SlimVirgin and the above is by no means evidence for anything except that some racist attacks should be more narowly defined as islamophobia. Axon 15:38, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I did not confuse you both. Sorry to correct you though. A "wrong classification" means wrong category. If islamophobia is a subsection from racism, the category is not wrong, but not specific enough. --Germen 15:45, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

You're not , stricly speaking, "correcting" me but interpolating what SV wrote (he said "wrongly classified" by the way which could mean an mis-sub classification). Perhaps that is what SlimVirgin meant, perhaps not, perhaps we'll never know, but what I do feel is that it is probably irrelevant to the discussion here. Axon 15:51, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

When I said "wrongly classified," I was paraphrasing what was said in the article. I don't know whether the Muslim community in the UK wants a new category or a sub-category. Either way, they want Islamophobic incidents to be recorded as such, so they can keep track of how prevalent they are. Nothing else should be read into what I wrote. SlimVirgin 18:16, July 16, 2005 (UTC)

Evaluation of supposed islamophobic claims

Several authors define islamophobia more specifically. According to them, Islamophobia encompasses the belief that Islam promotes

a religious fanaticism, b violent tendencies towards non-Muslims, c terrorism and rejects concepts such as

d equality e tolerance, f democracy and g human rights.

A Religious fanatism

This term, of course, is subjective. All religions with the possible exception of Zen buddhism praise adherence to their doctrines. The hadith contain a much-cited injunction to follow the middle path. Muslims which are adherents of more austere brands of islam, such as Salafism, define this middle path as the exact replication of Muhammads behaviour. Exceeding Mohammads example, e.g. praying seven times per day instead of five times, is considered extremism by this group.

Quotes and references from Salafi sources, please. Don't just summarize what you believe they believe to be "extremist."

Quote follows below: "Moderation in religion means following the example of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Exaggeration means trying to do more than he did, and negligence means not reaching that level. " - http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=9466&dgn=4 --Germen 09:55, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Your assessment of Zen Buddhism as a faith system that does not "praise adherence" to its "doctrines" may be oversimplifying things a little. Soto school and Rinzai school, and their respective offshoots, had and have a historic disagreement on the nature of the practice, and the role Zen played in promoting Japanese militarism before and during World War II is only now coming to light . BrandonYusufToropov 17:49, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

I am not a scholar of Zen, therefore I said possible. OK, what you said is well possible. Please note that Japanese Zen buddhism has some deviations of the original Chinese Zen. --Germen 09:55, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

B Violent tendencies towards non-Muslims

Qur'an 98:6: those who do not believe are the wordt of creatures

To the degree that you are deleting words from the middle of this verse, I respectfully maintain that you are MAKING THIS STUFF UP AS YOU GO ALONG.

The literal translation of this verse follows below. Qur'an 98:6 Those who disbelieve, among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures. I did not add it because it is Misplaced Pages policy not to repeat available sources.

I'm not even going to bother checking the rest of your citations. Citing a translation and quoting it accurately, rather than rewriting the Qur'an on they fly, might help you move a step away from obvious bias. If that's a priority. BrandonYusufToropov 17:58, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

If you differ with me, cite your sources as per Misplaced Pages policy.--Germen 13:37, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Germen is, indeed, interpolating citations in an completely original way so, in the sense you use and for the purposes of Misplaced Pages, he is "making it up as he goes along"... in other words, original research (or what was once called here as spoon feeding) as I have pointed out above in the Runnymede Definition section. None of the "evidence" Germen has submitted is usable unless he can actually demonstrate with his own reputable citations that others have applied it in the same way (i.e. to "disprove" the RD). I think this is clear and, without such evidence, his original reasoning can be safely ignored. Axon 09:55, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

If you differ with me, cite your sources as per Misplaced Pages policy. I did cite my sources, therefore I did not do original research. These are quotes from the YusufAli translation of the "Noble Qur'an". --Germen 10:35, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Quran 47:4 Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; at length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind (the captives) firmly: thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.

If this is not a violent attitude towards non-Muslims, what is? --Germen 10:42, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Qur'an 5:51 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

C Terrorism

Qur'an 59:2 It is He Who got out the Unbelievers among the People of the Book from their homes at the first gathering (of the forces). Little did ye think that they would get out: and they thought that their fortresses would defend them from Allah! But the (Wrath of) Allah came to them from quarters from which they little expected (it), and cast terror into their hearts, so that they destroyed their dwellings by their own hands and the hands of the Believers. Take warning, then, O ye with eyes (to see)!

--Germen 10:07, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes, because the modern definition of the word terrorism works so well with a translation that more accurately is represented by the word fear. And notice that it is Allah doing the casting here.Heraclius 04:37, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

The language in this aya is quite convoluted (as is characteristic of the Qur'an, I would like to say). If you read this verse over and over, it gives the impression that Allah instills terror by means of a Believing army. Disputed, I know. In other verses Believers are seen as instruuments of Allah which cast fear in the hearts of the enemies of islam. Terrorism basically means: spreading of fear. --Germen 09:29, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

D Equality

Qur'an 4:32And in no wise covet those things in which Allah Hath bestowed His gifts more freely on some of you than on others: to men is allotted what they earn, and to women what they earn: But ask Allah of His bounty. For Allah hath full knowledge of all things.

Qur'an 4:34Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, Great (above you all).

Qur'an 66:5It may be, if he divorced you (all), that Allah will give him in exchange consorts better than you,- who submit (their wills), who believe, who are devout, who turn to Allah in repentance, who worship (in humility), who fast,- previously married or virgins.

--Germen 10:07, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

E Tolerance

Qur'an 3:85 If anyone desires a religion other than Islám (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost.

Qur'an 3:87Of such the reward is that on them (rests) the curse of Allah, of His angels, and of all mankind ;-

Qur'an 61:7Who doth greater wrong than one who forges falsehood against Allah, even as he is being invited to Islám? And Allah guides not those who do wrong.

Qur'an 9:30The Jews call Ùzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

--Germen 10:14, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

F Democracy

Qur'an 33:36 It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path. (i.e. only theocracy is allowed)

5:44 It was We who revealed the Torah (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islám) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear Me, and sell not My signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are unbelievers. --Germen 10:23, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

G Human rights

The question whether islam promotes or objects to human rights can only be answered when it is known what is meant by human rights. When the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights is used as basis, there exist several points in which this Declaration is at odds with some or all branches of Islam.

Article 1. All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. 
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Islam agrees on that all human beings are born free. Islam considers Muslims as more dignified than "People of the Book", which are considered more dignified than polytheist or atheists, the "worst of creatures" according to the Qur'an, 98:6.

Islam recognizes only brotherhood between Muslims. Brotherhood between Muslim and non-Muslim is forbidden according to the Qur'an (5:51).--Germen 11:50, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Article 2. Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.
Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Islam distinguishes between Muslims, People of the Book and polytheists/atheists, see Article 1. Men have more rights than women, see article 1.

Islam does not recognize ethnic boundaries, although in some Hadith ethnic Arabs are seen as superior to non-Arabs.

Article 3. Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Islam recognizes four categories of people: Muslims, subjugated people (dhimmi's), infidels which are at (temporary, maximum ten years ) truce with the Muslims and infidels which are at war with the Muslims (e.g. have not a temporary truce with the Muslims).

Dhimmi's are discriminated (see dhimmitude, infidels are warred against, thus have no security.

Article 4. No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

The shari'ah allows slavery and the enslavement of infidel prisoners of war. Releasing slaves is considered meritorious in islam.

Article 5. No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Of course, which is torture or cruelty or not is subject to debate. Shari'ah prescribes punishments as flogging, stoning, cauterizing and cutting hands or feet. Most non-Muslims regard those as torture and cruelty.--Germen 11:50, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Article 6. Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

Islam agrees on this, although Shari'ah considers non-Muslims as less trustworthy than Muslims and women less than men. --Germen 11:50, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Article 7. All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law.
All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

According to Islam, men and women are treated differently for the law, as are Muslims, "people of the book" and infidels. In general, women have less rights than men (exception: the obligation of the husband to support the wife) and Muslims have more rights than non-Muslims (exceptions: non-Muslims can change their religion without being killed while Muslims are subject to death penalty after doing so, Muslims are obligated to participate in Jihad when their leader orders them while non-Muslims aren't).--Germen 11:50, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Article 8. Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

Shari'ah allows all people, including non-Muslims, to appeal for a Qadi (judge). Of course, Shari'ah law regards the testimony of non-Muslims as less (or completely invalid) than that of Muslims and the testimony of women as less than that of men, so their chances to win the appeal are less. "False" witnesses, e.g. witnesses which cannot prove their accusations (e.g. because they are women or non-Muslims), are punished by flogging.

Article 9. No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

Islam agrees on that. Nevertheless, Shari'ah regulations are at odds with the international standards of law as we saw, hence its judgements often do not meet this requirements.

Article 10. Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal,
in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

Islam agrees on that. Of course, a shariah court discriminates non-Muslims and women, so they will be discriminated against impartially.

Article 11. (1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law
in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.

Islam agrees on that.

(2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence,
under national or international law, at the time when it was committed.
Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.

Islam agrees on that. Note, however, that actions not considered a penal offence in meny countries like adultery and leaving Islam are considered 'hadd' in islam.

Article 12. No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence,
nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation.
Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

Shari'ah deals with all facets of human life, outside of the house as well as inside the house, so arbitrary interferes with privacy, family, home and correspondence. Islam protects against attacks against someone's honour or reputation: false witnesses are punished by flogging. Of course, Shari'ah rules of evidence apply, i.e. the witness of a Muslim man is more inportant than the witness of a Muslima or non-Muslim.

Article 13. (1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.

Non-Muslims were banned from the Hejaz (land around Mecca and Medina). Many Muslim countries ban Jews. Non-Muslims are not allowed to enter Mecca or Medina.

(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

Islam agrees on this. Muslims are encouraged to leave infidel lands.

Article 14. (1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.

Islam agrees on this.

(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Shari'ah does not allow a Muslim to be extradited to a non-Muslim country.

Article 15. (1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.

Islam agrees on this, it must be noted that islam recognizes only the islamic Ummah as the nationality of a Muslim.

(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

Many islamic countries, e.g. Morocco and Turkey, have a hereditary nationality which cannot be revoked. When islam ios considered a nationality, as Islam does, islam denies this right to Muslims. When a Muslim wants to leave islam, he is considered a murtadd (apostate) and according to Shari'ah, must be subjected to death penalty.

Article 16. (1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.

Within islam, men are allowed to have up to four wives and an unlimited number of concubines or sex slaves. Women can only marry with one man. Muslim men can marry Muslim, Christian and Jewish wifes, Muslim women only can marry Muslim men. The wife must obey the husband. Both can divorce at will, however the woman who divorces is considered as inferior, unless she divorces her husband because of his apostacy.

(2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.

islam agrees on this, but "the silence of virgins is considered as consent" (hadith).

(3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.

islam agrees on this. Exceptions are families of captured infidels, the marriage is considered annulled, children can be sold at will and the wife can be kept as a sex slave after she has menstruated in order to exclude pregnancy.

Article 17. (1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.

Islam agrees on this, with the exception of the property of infidels at war with islam and apostates.

(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property."

Islam agrees on this, note however that apostacy and war conditions are considered non-arbitrary deprivement of property.

Article 18. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Islam denies this right to Muslims. A Muslim who leaves islam muist be sentenced to death. Non-Muslims who live under the protection of islamic authorities, dhimmi's, are not allowed to convert Muslims to their religion. According to shari'ah, dhimmi's are not allowed to build new churches, temples or synagogues.

Article 19. Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Islam recognizes this right with the exception of questioning islam, Muhammad or the shari'ah.

Article 20. (1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.

Islam recognizes this right.

(2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association.

Islam recognizes this right, with two exceptions. Muslims are compelled to join a jihad effort when they are called upon by their leaders. Muslims are not allowed to leave islam, so if islam is considered an association, this can be interpreted as compulsion.

Article 21. (1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.

Islam forbids the rule of a non-Muslim over a Muslim. There exists a limited self-rule for non-Muslims.

(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.

Islam recognizes this right, however limited rights for dhimmi's apply.

(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

According to Islam, the will of Allah shall be the basis of authority of government. Leaders may be appointed by democratic procedures, but they are not allowed to introduce laws which contradict the teachings of the Qur'an or the Sunnah.

Article 22. Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.

Islam recognizes this right for Muslims, within the restructions of islam. Non-Muslims have limited rights.

Article 23. (1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.

Islam recognizes this right for Muslims.

(2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.

Islam does not recognize this right explicitly. Introducing this right, however, does not violate islamic teachings.

(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.

Islam recognizes this right.

(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

Islam does not recognize this right explicitly. Introducing this right, however, does not violate islamic teachings.

Article 24. Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.

Islam does not recognize this right explicitly. Introducing this right, however, does not violate islamic teachings.

Article 25. (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

Islam does recognize this right to some degree. Children should take care for their parents. Widows or divorced women can marry to married to unmarried men. Old people without children, unattractive women and orphans are often forced to become beggars.

(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

Islam knows a limited period (several months) in which the father should support children, even after divorce. After this period expires, no conditions apply.

Shari'ah does not recognize children born out of wedlock. Their mother can be sentenced to stoning, as the punishment of wedlock is death.

Article 26. (1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.

Islam agrees on the right of every individual to learn about islam. Sciences which violate islamic teachings are problematic. Islam does not recognize the other rights per se, but they are not in conflict with islamic teachings.

(2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.

Islam restricts this right to education in islam. Islam considers only other Muslims as legitimate friends and brothers.

(3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.

Islam agrees on this.

Article 27. (1) Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.

Islam restricts this right to activities which do not interfere with islamic tenets.

(2) Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.

According to several fatwa's, islam does recognize this right.

Article 28. Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized.

War against other islamic nations is not allowed. According to islam, peace with infidels for longer than 10 years is forbidden. The truce can be broken if this favours the Muslim cause, see Treaty of Hudabya. A truce is allowed only when this truce improves the strategic prospects of the Muslims.

Article 29. (1) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.

Islam supports this statement.

(2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.

Islam restricts this rights.

(3) These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Not applicable

Article 30. Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.

Not applicable, unless this interpretation is seen as islamophobic. --Germen 11:50, 17 July 2005 (UTC)