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Revision as of 13:43, 15 February 2008

Lets get started

Just a note saying that I'm ready to start presenting evidence, but would like to give the named parties a chance to present theirs first. In other words, lets get to it. Cla68 (talk) 23:52, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

my advice is that if you've got it ready, just leave blank sections at the top for the named folks to use....better to get it out there so there's plenty of time to look at it and refine it (IMO). --Rocksanddirt (talk) 00:06, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I think I'm going to assemble at least some of it on a userpage sandbox before I formally present it so it will be ready for primetime when posted. Cla68 (talk) 01:03, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Evidence, especially if it is well-organized and not duplicative, is very welcome from any user. There is no need for any user to wait or particular order in which the evidence needs to be submitted. Our only request is that everyone submit his or her evidence or comments within no later than one week of the case opening so that our decision can be issued in as timely a fashion as possible consistent with a thorough review. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:11, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Go ahead

I am pretty despondent at this point.

I doubt that a committee that serves at the pleasure of Jimbo would disagree with him.

I used similar sorts of evidence as previous sockpuppet inquiries. I imagined that adding user comparisons would make the evidence more persuasive, not less. We've banned people on much less, but this case requires nothing less than a doctoral thesis for some reason—for the benefit of people who received off-site emails on exclusive lists. These emails supposedly demonstrate that they're separate individuals. (It's something about their style or tone, never quite defined.) They're staking everything on their estimation of their own hand—emails, which we can't see. They've already made up their minds and they're all in. I guess sometimes nothing's a pretty cool hand, 'cuz I'm about ready to fold. Cool Hand Luke 06:14, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Please go ahead and present your evidence. I like to think that at least most of our current arbitrators are willing to respectfully disagree with Jimbo if they feel it's warranted to do so. Your evidence is very compelling and should be presented. Cla68 (talk) 06:25, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I think you should present your evidence. You don't need to argue its relevance, its proprietary, or even explain why you used the examples you did. Just put it out there for the Arbs to consider. Of course, if you really don't want to... you have released it under the GDFL and I have no qualms in presenting it myself! ;~) LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:41, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Proxify.com

Thatcher's comments regarding Checkuser evidents state SamiHarris used Proxify.com. There is then talk about computer setups and how SamiHarris and Mantanmoreland had very different computer setups. Thatcher then comments that paid subscribers to Proxify.com can mask these setups. However, from a quick check ONLY paid subscribers can use the POST function anyway, so surely the SamiHarris account was a paid-for account?

Note: I just performed a test post attempt on se.wiki through Proxify and received the following message:

"POST access and interactive content are available only to paid Proxify subscribers. Subscribe to Proxify now and get special access to this and much more. Subscribers enjoy faster, ad-free access to all of Proxify's features. Please click here for more information."

So I think that may rule-out the computer setup argument? Whitstable 00:55, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Even assuming Samiharris was a paid subscriber, that indicates that user agent spoofing was available to him but does not prove he used it. User agents can also be spoofed by various other means. I am not offering an analysis of the evidence, merely providing a summary of my findings. Because proxies are involved and user agents can be spoofed, the value of my "evidence" may in fact be quite small, but I would not want other involved editors to think I was keeping information (pro or con) hidden. Thatcher 01:08, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate that, and even if the evidence does prove to be quite small it is clearly crucial to have it included. But I think it should be made clear that to save an edited page through Proxify.com, a user has to be a paid subscriber. So even if SamiHarris did not use the Proxify.com option of agent spoofing, the option would have been available. It may only be a small point, but I would like it to be emphasised that "as a paid user, agent spoofing would have been available to SamiHarris" Whitstable 01:13, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree, the value in this is just how difficult any definitive statements that rely on technical evidence are going to be. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 01:14, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

In case anyone doesn't already know, there are extensions for firefox that can change user agents and proxies - including proxify proxies - at a single mouse click. (Use this knowledge only for good, my children.) The pattern of edits between SH and MM, however, strongly suggests two different computers to me. Relata refero (talk) 08:29, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Warned IP

This edit is that IPs only edit. I've warned him. Thanks to CHL for reverting it. — Rlevse • Talk • 02:18, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

While I'd rather we didn't blanket revert stuff, that was irrelevant, unless the ip has a whole lot of on wiki information to add to it. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 04:27, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

It was inmaterial to the case as I saw it. — Rlevse • Talk • 11:09, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Unseen off-site emails

Jimbo has made reference in his evidence to off site e-mails received from Samiharris and Mantanmoreland. I know JzG has referenced these also and I believe others have as well. I find reference to evidence that no one else can take a look at extremely problematic in a case like this. There is a lot at stake in this case and transparency is extremely important in my opinion. As much of the evidence as possible should be evaluated by the community, rather than just Arbcom and/or Jimbo and a select group of users who received e-mails from the users in question.

As such I highly recommend that someone - probably Jimbo - contact Sami and Mantan and ask if they would be okay with a significant number of these e-mails being released (of course it is entirely up to those users). Significant identifying information and comments made in the e-mails which the users would not want others to see could of course be redacted (probably by someone like Jimbo or JzG who has the original e-mails in their possession). If even 20-30 such e-mails were released (the more the better though obviously) this would provide a means for editors (particularly those that have developed much of the evidence to date) to see for themselves if the assertion of Jimbo and others that these are two different users seems likely to be true. Personally I remain very much open to that possibility but so far have just seen no evidence that convinces me. If these e-mails are really a smoking gun that absolves Mantanmoreland of the sockpuppetry allegations and wraps up this whole mess then I think it is in everyone's interest for them to see the light of day.

Obviously I understand that this is a dicey matter since these were private e-mails. In no way should the users in question be forced or even heavily cajoled into allowing members of the community to look at them, and a refusal to do so should not be interpreted in a negative light. However if the community cannot see these e-mails then I don't think they should have much bearing on this case (if Arbcom members can look at them that would be a little better, but even that is not advisable in a case like this). I would hope that the committee (and Jimbo) understand that "secret evidence" that is highly determinative of the outcome of the case could have a real deleterious effect on community trust, and that a number of editors will not be convinced by the mere assertion that a number of private e-mails prove these are two distinct users (largely because evaluating that kind of thing is quite subjective and open to different interpretations). Rather they will understandably want to see that evidence for themselves.

I don't think this is at all an unreasonable request, but as I said it is entirely up to Samiharris and Mantanmoreland.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 13:43, 15 February 2008 (UTC)