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moldovan flag

Does anyone know why the moldovan flag has the flag of the ottoman empire in it in the form of a bulls horn? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.248.187.200 (talk) 04:43, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Possible Moldova project

Anyone interested in a dedicated group, which is initially proposed to begin as a task force, dedicated to improving content relating to the nation of Moldova is more than welcome to indicate their interest at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Moldova work group. Thank you. John Carter (talk) 15:04, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Xasha's edits

Xasha, I reverted your additions, because I thought many things you added violated NPOV, and it would have been too much of a hassle to try to remove that content. I will try to go back and reintroduce the more uncontroversial edits you made. Some of the things that you added that I found objectionable are saying that the Council only voted for union with Romania because of the influence of the Romanian army, the statement that Romanians wanted Moldovans to view them as brothers, changing Romanian to Moldovan in the inter-war period, even though in the Romanian census the population was recorded as Romanian, and a few other things. Due to the controversial nature of this section, please describe some of the more extensive changes you wish to make on the talk page first so that other users can discuss them. TSO1D (talk) 20:02, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, after I reintroduced some your changes, it seems that the difference between your version and the current version isn't that great. I only omitted a few sentences and words. Please feel free to discuss those issues here. TSO1D (talk) 20:16, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

They were all from the book "Nation-building and Contested Identities", published in the same time at Iasi's Publirom and Budapest's Regio Book in 2001. The author is a lecturer at the University of Bucharest , so you can't say it's propaganda or lies. Here's a presentation of the book. You may not like it, because it doesn't fit the traditional nationalist history, but it is souced. From what I've read on policy pages, you must accept this text unless you can prove the source is biased. However, I'll let you think about it (or prove me wrong) before restoring the text. Xasha (talk) 21:57, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, Misplaced Pages policy in this regard is a bit more complicated. Please take a look at WP:NPOV. One aspect of this policy is that simply because something is sourced does not automatically qualify it to be included. It also has to reflect a neutral point of view attributing all disputed issues to a particular source, providing multiple sources for those issues, and not giving undue weight to one side. Furthermore, it is often better to add details to the relevant subarticle, for example that would be History of Moldova in this case. TSO1D (talk) 22:16, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Who decides what's a NPOV? This is an article of a lecturer of the University of Bucharest, in a book edited by a reputable Romanian publisher and favourably reviewed by Romanian-American historian Vladimir Tismăneanu, so you can't accuse it of Soviet propaganda or manipulative POV. I don't see anything in the Misplaced Pages article that disputes what that source says. If there are some Romanian nationalist who say otherwise, it's not my job to search their writings for their personal views. I find it stupid to prevent the publication of some information just because there may be some book in the world that may dispute it.Xasha (talk) 22:33, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

About the census in interwar Romania: we have proofs that a signifiant number of Ukrainians were counted as "Romanians who had forgotten their mother language", so it's no surprise there were no Moldovans in the census. (It's the only Bessarabian census with no Moldovans - Romanians, on the other hand, appear in every census since 1897). The policy in Romania nowadays is the same: if you say you're a Moldovan, Oltenian or Vlach, you're counted as Romanian.Xasha (talk) 22:34, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

In the census, you can define yourself however you like. For instance, in the last census, there were around 100 people who claimed to be "Dacians". :-) bogdan (talk) 22:41, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

So how come no Moldovans or Vlachs?Xasha (talk) 22:50, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Hey, did it contain a blank field too, like the last Russian one? Were there any Hobbits counted? :-) --Illythr (talk) 23:02, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

From census data: "In the data processing at certain ethnic groups were included: the Romanians – also include the persons who declared themselves Aromanians (25053 persons) and Macedonian-Romanians (1334 persons)", ("Vlach" is exonym for "Aromanian", meaning they don't call themselves "Vlachs" other people, Greeks and Serbs call them "Vlachs") I don't know about Moldovans, I bet there were not more than couple of hundreds who declared themselves "Moldovans" I don't know about "Dacians" haven't found the info, but it's very much possible, the number is probably included in the 151615 "Other ethnic groups" before you jump to the conclusion that most of the 151615 are "Moldovans" in North-East region there are only 6765 "Other ethnic". So there you go... Ah, and hobbits are there too, the ones who declared themselves as such, the rest go undercover. -- AdrianTM (talk) 23:07, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say that all people in Moldavia west of Pruth declared themselves Moldovans in 2002, just that the Romanian government didnt change it's attitude towards Moldovans since 1930. However, I think Moldovans are counted as Romanians, as the Vlachs, rather than "Other ethnic groups". Is there any way to get the raw results of the census (that doesn't add people based on Romania's government policy)?Xasha (talk) 23:34, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I doubt that, when there was an aggregation done it was clearly specified in text. I've never met somebody from Moldavia who declare himself/herself "Moldovan" or "Moldavian" in the sense of ethnicity. Like how Americans declare themselves "New Englanders" or a "Yankees" that doesn't mean "non-American", during the census I doubt many of them declares themselves "Yankees". (and there is no anti-yankee conspiration either...)-- AdrianTM (talk) 00:09, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

In the meetings before the results were released they discussed this "problem", and decided to take care of it by adding the results. Did you meet all the 4,7 million? And the US census is very different from the usual Eastern European census. But let's come back to our discussion: Why were sourced informations deleted from the article?Xasha (talk) 01:00, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

About the census, I agree with you, if people had declared themselves as "Moldovan", they would have been recorded as "Romanian." But that is exactly my point, we should be presenting the results as they were recorded. TSO1D (talk) 02:02, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Of course, but this would have been mentioned just like Aromanians were included in the count and it was mentioned, the census was done by professionals who would not invalidate the results by just recording in a different category. No, I haven't met all the Moldavians (I mean those from Romania, not "Moldovans"), but I haven't met one who didn't consider himself/herself Romanian, of course there's still time... there are even some Texans who don't consider themselves Americans... I don't doubt that there are some who don't consider themselves Romanians, but again that's beside the point, the point is that this is about Moldova not about Romania -- AdrianTM (talk) 03:49, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

BTW, why isn't there any article about the Romanian region of Moldavia?Xasha (talk) 13:13, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

there is. TSO1D (talk) 14:45, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

It's about the principality of Moldova, so it covers whole mediaeval Moldavia and 50 years of Cispruthian Moldavia. Nothing about Moldavia as part of Romania (state which appeared in 1862). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xasha (talk • contribs) 14:57, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Moldova (region) redirects to Moldavia, I guess what needs to be said about region can go into Moldova article, that's how I interpret the redirect. If people consider that's something important to be said about the region that doesn't fit well in Moldavia article then they can edit here directly and remove the redirection. -- AdrianTM (talk) 15:15, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Dear Xasha,

Please do not take my edits as a sign of aggressiveness. I tend to edit boldly, but I wish to believe I tolerate and listen and change my opinion if proven with good arguments. I believe that helps identify the core the problems, avoids mixing several issues, and brings the dispute, if any, to a small number of points. Now, I'd like to answer some of your observations. But before I want to thank you for your contribution. Whether we agree on some political issue or not, it does not mean we can not be nice and civilized, and respect each other's opinions. Anyway, I am not trying to change your opinion about anything, as I am sure you are not trying to change mine. We are here to edit the article, to convey facts/sources/(sourced) arguments in a neutral tone. In fact, I'd add "also to explain to the world" that there are certain divergent opinions about certain things.

Refer to this change.

• why mention an invalid treaty? It is the first time I hear that the treaty of paris is invalid. If that is true, I think we should first proper discuss that issue at the article of that treaty, because it would have many-many more implications in hundreds of articles. So I believe, we need a lot of feedback there. Please, just let me know when you raise the question there, I'd be very eager to listen to your arguments. You just have to present them to a larger audience, than the talk page of a single article.

It's basic international law. A treaty becomes valid when all parties ratify it. Japan never ratified it. Here's an analysis from a prestigious Romanian historical magazine :

"Tratatul de la Paris din 28 octombrie 1920 nu s-a pus niciodata în practica. Pentru ca nu a fost ratificat de Japonia (Rusia sovietica a stiut sa cointereseze eficient Japonia pentru a o determina sa nu semneze, iar diplomatia româna s-a miscat greu si cu mare întârziere în spatiul asiatic). Astfel ca el n-a putut fi invocat de români în 1940. Si nici în 1947. Si nu poate fi invocat nici azi, la alte gânduri basarabene. De parca Nistrul s-ar fi mutat definitiv pe Prut."

This is exactly what I am talking about. We are deciding here whether an international treaty is valid or not. We have no authority to do this. All we can do, is copy the opinions of people who have authority. Otherwise, we are doing original research WP:OR, which is automatically deleted. And again, we can not argue in Moldova that it is not valid, and in Romania and in 100 other articles that it is valid. It has to be discussed elsewhere, in Treaty of Paris. :Dc76\ 21:01, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

We are not deciding nothing. We are not the UN or the League of Nations. Since Japan didn't ratify it, it is invalid. It's the same thing as the European Constitution: it has been signed by all EU countries, it was ratified by a lot of countries, but France and the Netherlands didn't ratify it, so it's invalid, and they had to create another. No original research, but basic international law, which, moreover is also supported by a prestigious source.Xasha (talk) 21:28, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid you did not understand what I meant. You suggest that we apply the "international law". Which is automatically WP:OR. The most we can do is cite sources. You can definitively say "Some claim (and give the reference) that the treaty is invalid because ..." That's what I am suggesting you to do. This way, you would edit in a scholarly way. I'm afraid your edits currently are more of a politician or journalist way to edit. :-) :Dc76\ 14:04, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

The fact is simple: The only source we have says it's invalid. The right formulation is "X author claims this was invalid, while nobody ever claimed the contrary." My style is encyclopedic, yours is something "I know this happened and this not". You must remeber you're not God, so just by "knowing" something, you don't make that a truth.Xasha (talk) 18:38, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I told you a hundred times, the issue belongs to the article Treaty of Paris. Are you afraid to pursue your point there? Prove your point there. European countries had mutual assistance treaties with Romania, had consulates in Chisinau. Would you open a consulate in Chisinau if you don't recognize? Only USSR did not recognize.:Dc76\ 19:04, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll edit the article too. So you "know" European countries recognized Romanian annexation of Bessarabia and opened consulates in Chisinau, or you have sources to prove it?Xasha (talk) 19:28, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

• the pressure form Romanian army was not towards the union, but 1) to bring order and 2) occasionally to slow the agrarian reform! This definitively deserves more elaboration. But in a proper sub-article, like Union of Bessarabia with Romania or Sfatul Tarii or Moldavian Democratic Republic. Here we just say what happen. Since there are clear different opinions, did or did not Romanian army influence, we should not favor one of them. In other words, we need to "outsourse" the issue to proper article devotted to the respective historical events.

From Charles King's "Moldovans", pg. 35:

"with Romanian troops already in Chisinau, Romanian planes circling around the meeting hall, and the Romanian prime minister waiting in the foyer, many minority deputies chose simply not to vote."

From Cristina Petrescu's "Contrasting/Conflicting identities", pg 156(see credentials above):

"it is reasonable to suppose that the presence of Romanian troops in Bessarabia created a situation in which the majority in the Sfatul Tãrii decided to rally the faction that was advocating the union with"

First of all, it is an opinion, it is not a legal fact. There is no Romanian Army ultimatum or smth like that. Now, let's suppose it its true. so what? if some of those 36 instead of being honest with themselves thought otherwise, it is a problem those individuals have with themselves and their electorate. Noone pressured the 86 who voted for to do so. In fact, those 86 repeatedly called for union for months prior to that session! It is simple arithmetic here. 86 pro, 3 against, 36 abstained. BTW, the 3 against, do you know what happened to them. They were normal people afterwords, noone persecuted them for anything. Balamez was even a succesful politician, and has died... in 1941 in an NKDV prison... for being a member of the Sfatul Tarii. "The devil punishes his own" :Dc76\ 21:01, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

"Pressure" is not legal of course. It's quite important: just some months before, with no millitary support whatsoever from the (White) Russian government, the Diet decided to join Russia. Days after Romanian troops entered Chisinau, Moldova split from Russia and was annexed to Romania. Magic? Also, remeber I brought two sources proving Romanian military pressure, can you produce sources supporting the lack thereof? Cause if you can't, there's no dispute whatsoever... just 2 reliable source vs anonymous wikipedia editor Dc76. Xasha (talk) 21:28, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, could you please give a source saying Sfatul Tarii decided to join Russia? What do you mean by "Days after Romanian troops entered Chisinau, Moldova split from Russia and was annexed to Romania." That is total news to me. The Romanian troops entered Moldova after repeated calls from the government of the Moldavian Democratic Republic to help quill the security situation given the large number of deserters from the Russian Army. Afterwards, Moldova proclaimed independence. And Moldova joined Romania by its own will, it was not annexed. I am not trying to deny your right to produce any sources, just place them where they supposed to be. This article should only contain a very-very general overview, not so many details. That's what I am saying. I can produce and will definitively sources saying what happened exactly on that day: who invited who (Moldavians invited the Romanian prime minister, he did not come out of his imagination), Moldavians, not Romanians called for union. I don't, though, understand what sources you want denying that there was any pressure. You can not ask for sources "denying something". Sources "claim", don't "deny". Your sources and my sources can stay together in the same article, and I see no problem with that. But, As I said, let's move to the proper article for this discussion. Cheers,:Dc76\ 14:04, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

This is common knowledge for everyone interested in history. But let's read the proclamation of the Moldovan Democratic Republic of 2 December 1917:

"În puterea temeiului acesta şi avînd în vedere aşezarea rînduielii obşteşti şi întărirea drepturilor cîştigate prin revoluţie, Basarabia, sprijinindu-se pe trecutul său istoric, se declară de azi înainte Republică Democratică Moldovenească, care va intra în alcătuirea Republicii Federative Democratice Ruseşti, ca părtaş cu aceleaşi drepturi."

"Numai astfel vom scăpa noi ţara noastră şi vom feri-o de peire pe maica noastră a tuturor – marea Republică Democratică Rusească."

Surprised? They forgot to tell you this in those "history" classes they teach you in Romania, isn't it? Romanian army entered Bessarabia at the request of a non-Moldovan White Russian general. The Moldovans were quite surprised by this move, and the population didn't quite like their overstay. Moldova was annexed by Romania. Otherwise, you should also say "The Moldovan people, represented by its vanguard, the PCM, requested to join the USSR." 2 sources state the pressure, and none denies it. So, according to wikipedian rules, my information can stay, yours not.Xasha (talk) 18:38, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

care va intra în alcătuirea Republicii Federative Democratice Ruseşti E scris la timpul viitor! A intrat? Nu. Atunci ce mai vrei? A ales sa se uneasca cu Romania. BTW, I learnd history in Moldova, not in Romania. Please, stop personal allusions.

Care to name that general? I can name the minister of foreign affairs of the Moldavian Democratic Republic, Ion Pelivan. He was the one, who convinced Romanian government to send one division.

PCM can consider itself the vanguard of anything. But it was not a democratically elected parliament!

I do not deny that some sources can say some pressure might have existed upon someone. But that is the problem of those (a clear minority of) individuals who abstained from voting against their own conscience. :Dc76\ 19:04, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Every native Moldovan (and most Romanians for that matter) will understand that is just a formulation of the administrative jargon. Moldova did join Russia. Otherwise, why did it have to proclaim independence later?

Of course, General Shtcherbatcheff, the Russian Commander-in-Chief at Iasi. Pelivan had no mandate to request a foreign intervention, and Romania didn't consider its request. Even if it would had, the situation is the same as with the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968: some officials, without any mandate, requested foreign intervention, and Soviets, like Romanians, decided to respond this request.

Sfatul tarii wasn't "elected" more democratically than the Moldovan soviet in 1940.Xasha (talk) 19:28, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

There's no source saying there wasn't pressure, but there are 2 that confirm it. Thus we say it was under presuure (that is if we want to build an encyclopedia, not a collection of personal opinions of anonymous users)Xasha (talk) 19:28, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

• You erased "the union was recognized by the European countries". I assume this is a mistake you did. why erase this? Noone doubts they did, as none doubts that Russia did not.

There was no official recognition since the treaty was invalid.

Dc76\ 19:18, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Xasha (talk) 19:43, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Ditto, per my observation above. :Dc76\ 21:01, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

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