Talk:North Macedonia: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 02:00, 8 March 2008

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Important notice: Prior discussion has determined that the name Republic of Macedonia will be used in this article, and changes to the name without discussion at Talk:Republic of Macedonia/name will be reverted. Discussion of the naming issue should be posted to the subpage Talk:Republic of Macedonia/name.

Important notice: Misplaced Pages's naming conventions for entities called "Macedonia" or "Macedonian" are set out at Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (Macedonia-related articles). These conventions represent the consensus of editors here. If you are new to this article and have a question or suggestion regarding naming, please read the naming conventions first.

Misplaced Pages is not censored.
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falsification of History

This article about the "republic of Macedonia" contains misleading information and inappropriate content. Under UN agreement in no way should any document state the F.Y.R.O.M. under the name of Macedonia of Republic of Macedonia. This article should be put under the F.Y.R.O.M. one and should be protected. I am inclined to believe that Misplaced Pages will act accordingly to best of everybody's interest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Deafakos (talk • contribs) 11:08, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages does not answer to the UN, nor any other body. We make distinctions for article based on our own evaluations, it appears that the common English name Republic of Macedonia, or just simply Macedonia. This is also what the country calls it self. This article is not the first, nor the last name dispute, but in this case, if you look t the pages archives you will find that you are only one of hundreds of people who complained, we've been over this before. If we changed the name to FYROM, the people in Skopje would be just as offended as the Greeks. The horse is dead, stop flogging it. Samuell Lift me up or put me down 04:37, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

SO you believe it is better to abuse it than change it to something mutually accepted... This is a pretty "undemocratic" way of thinking... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.88.190.34 (talk) 11:16, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I doubt Samuell is an official Misplaced Pages admin... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.103.139.110 (talk) 18:13, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

The fact is, the name FYROM is not mutually accepted, otherwise the country would call itself that. Misplaced Pages is not a democracy we work by consensus and discussion, not voting. And being an admin just gives you a few technical features such as deleting and protecting pages, it doesn't make you a spokesperson or give you much authority. The policies that support what I said before can be found here and here.Samuell Lift me up or put me down 20:48, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

You are contadicting youself here. How can you reach a consensus without democratic processes and no voting? There is no consensus without measuring the "consensus". If someone reports something ABUSIVE about you and this person claimed that it was true then what would you do? Naming FYROM as Republic of Macedonia is abusive to Greeks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Deafakos (talk • contribs) 01:18, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

And naming Macedonia FYROM is abusive to Macedonians.Silvery Swirls (talk) 15:20, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Fyrom is not on macedon soil its in Dardani and Paeonian soil.Megistias (talk) 15:23, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

MacedoniaLovesYou

www.macedonialovesyou.com is a great site showing Macedonia to the world and should be added in the external links section! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.126.175.158 (talk) 13:15, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Infobox locator map

I notice that there are several locator maps used for European countries. Macedonia's is Mercator, and extends far north and west, leaving the country looking tiny (if it weren't already quite small). Compare at the map used for Italy, which seems to be far more suitable for showing countries on the European mainland, especially towards the south. Can the other base map be adapted for use here? Jd2718 (talk) 01:08, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I was the originator of the PNG locator maps as used in Italy and various other European countries, which are consistent with maps used for most other countries. Surprisingly, there was a prior edit war regarding these maps, with some arguing that the ~~horrid~~ orange Mercator maps should remain without there really being a prior consensus to keep them. Anyhow, it is my intent to produce SVG maps for all European countries when able, but I have been delayed in doing so. This is still on my to-do list, so stay tuned! Quizimodo (talk) 15:32, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Move to F.Y.R.O.M

Can someone please move this whole page and all of its detial into Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia because that is exactly what it is. That is how the UN recognizes it and besides, Macedonia as a place is much bigger in Greece to where it culturally belongs. We can't go ignoring UN policy and more countries recognize FYROM including all of the improtant lands: Western and Central Europe etc. One more thing, Alexander the Great was not FYROM-Macedonian because he lived years before the Slavs came along. Antun Gustav (talk) 11:34, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages does not answer to the UN or any other organization or country. The country calls itself Republic of Macedonia so that is the more common English name (and probably the most neutral). The horse is dead, stop flogging it. Samuell Lift me up or put me down 22:38, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Obviously it should be referred as FYROM simply as that's how UN recognizes -and they themselves accept it that way- and UN is the ultimate place for any de-jure recognition of any state (along with name etc).I mean that's start up things for anyone involved in politics and international law.Otherwise we could name ourselves Republic of Apache and claim billions of dollars for Apache genocide by settlers.Or the Hustler's Republic and hustle anyone within our territory.I mean there is a law you know and UN are the ultimate judge on this law. BTW how ROM is the most "neutral" name.Hhaha lol Eagle of Pontus (talk) 17:24, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Ahahahahahahahahhaahahhahahaha. Balkan Fever 02:03, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Going with that line of reasoning, there should not be an article named Taiwan at all since Taiwan is not recognized by the UN. As Samuell said it, stop trying to beat a dead horse. I think this issue has been discussed over and over with everyone trying to push their favorite POV.--Ubardak (talk) 02:19, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. The archives of this article, the archives of Macedonia naming dispute, the archives of Macedonian language and the archives of Macedonians (ethnic group), among others, all mention this. Balkan Fever 02:30, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

It is obvious that the name of this article is another proof of the many cases where Greeks can get away with murder in Misplaced Pages...-- Avg 02:47, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Fute can be so very entertaining when he wants to, can't he? ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 07:52, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

It should not be called FYROM because the UN recognizes it as that. It should also not be called RoMacedonia because YES THERE ARE SOME RESERVED WORDS FOR COUNTRY NAMES. It should be called RoMacedonia (formerly FYROM), pendig naming issue. 79.103.155.16 (talk) 22:27, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Government of Republic of Macedonia never signs any documents with a name different than the constitutional. For example see this and "I consider this Exchange of Letters as the equivalent of signature." wording. --Kirev (talk) 15:55, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I think Ubardak you must reevaluate your knowledge.FYROM accepted entrance and is accepted as such in UN.RO Taiwan didn't.Don't you see a Pacific ocean of difference;;;;For Christ shake. Eagle of Pontus

Maybe you should reevaluate your knowledge. The Republic of Macedonia did not change its name, it just allowed the UN to use a provisional reference. You don't actually care though, you're just "offended" by the "misuse" of the name Macedonia, and in regards to what you think, no-one cares. Balkan Fever 09:58, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

To User BalkanFever and all BalkanFevers: Yes we do care. If Skopje would like to be called Macedonia, this is fine. We,Greeks have no problem as soon as it pays taxes.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Magicheader (talk • contribs) 06:45, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Maybe you should have asked :). Balkan Fever 07:05, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Please kickbankill BalkanFever for trolling. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.97.51.67 (talk) 14:03, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Until the naming dispute is solved FYROM is the generaly accepted name. Only the US recognised Scopje with its constitutional name. Because of that they should be ignored (the US) by the general public. Their opinion (because is only an opinion) shouldn't be taken into account seriously... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stamatisg (talk • contribs) 22:43, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Please, rename to the United Nations form at once. 213.97.51.67 (talk) 14:10, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

"Republic of Macedonia" is total anti-Greek POV and fully Skopjan nationalist POV. Please, rename the article to FYROM as stated by the United Nations and stop trolling and vandalizing the page with your nationalist POV. 87.219.84.68 (talk) 00:58, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:The Sun too is a star.jpg

Image:The Sun too is a star.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Misplaced Pages article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Misplaced Pages:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Misplaced Pages policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 02:38, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Why lowercase 'former'?

Why should 'former' be spelled without capitals? I'm just curious. diego_pmc (talk) 23:48, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

See Macedonia naming dispute#Compromise solutions and look for the bullet points about two thirds of the way through that section - they explain why. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

References to ancient Macedon in the History section

"Over the centuries the territory which today forms the Republic of Macedonia was ruled by a number of different states and former empires, but Macedonian blood has always run in the genes of the Macedonians living in this region."

Could someone clarify this statement for me? How is "Macedonian blood" defined encyclopedically? Should Misplaced Pages rely on a nationalist, gene/blood-related definition of ethnicity (see Blood and soil)? If Misplaced Pages were to rely on such a definition, then this statement would definitely need to cite a credible peer-reviewed source (preferably one including comparative DNA tests performed on the remains of people living in the region during the past 2816 years).

Of course it could be the case that the author intended a different meaning whereby, at any point in time, the people living in the region called themselves Macedonians. So, in that case, the Greek inhabitants of ancient Macedon called themselves Macedonians in ancient times; while, in our times, the predominantly Slavic inhabitants also call themselves Macedonians. If that is the case, then the whole statement should be removed on the grounds of relying on circular reasoning, as this ambiguity would confuse many of the readers (particularly when viewed in the context of the Macedonia naming dispute - i.e. in what context is the word "Macedonian" used and in what context is the word "Macedonians" used in this statement).

Moreover, the part that refers to the "Ancient Period" contains numerous ambiguities with regards to its references to ancient Macedon. While it mentions early on that "The kingdom of Macedon took over Paionia", it then goes on to refer to Alexander the Great as "Philip's son Alexander the Great (356–323 BC), the King of Macedonia" and "Alexander was born in 356 BC in Pella, the ancient capital of Macedonia". This begs the question of whether the word "Macedonia" here refers to ancient Macedon or to the former Yugoslav Republic. I am not trying to flame anyone here; all I am trying to say is that you people should pick a naming convention and then stick to it... you can't use the words Macedon and Macedonia interchangeably, in this article, for fear of confusion! This is an encyclopedic article; we can't assume any knowledge of history on behalf of the reader, so it is essential to avoid such situations. As a final remark, I should note that since this is not part of the history of the "Republic of Macedonia" per se, but of the history of the "Region of Macedonia", this should not be a part of this article for fear of confusion.

--Radjenef (talk) 00:53, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

You're absolutely right. If the purpose of Misplaced Pages is to transmit knowledge, let's make sure people are not getting "technically" correct but ultimately misleading information. You seem to imply that the blurb on ancient history is sloppily written; however, I think it is intentionally hazy. It is perfectly accurate, yet can lead an unknowing reader to the impression that the Republic of Macedonia has some sort of cultural continuity with ancient Macedon. I conquer, Radjenef, that that whole section should either be clarified or moved to a different article. This also goes for some of those photos appearing in the margin (i.e. readers could be confused into thinking that the emperor Justinian was an "ethnic Macedonian").

Anyway, I find it sadly ironic that in this same article, we learn that:

"The Macedonian State Religion Commission denies the group (the Orthodox Ohrid Archbishopric) to be registered as a religious group saying that only one group may be registered for each confession and that the name was not sufficiently distinct from that of the Macedonian Orthodox Church."

The government of the Republic of Macedonia seems capable of recognizing the obvious problems in the overlap of religious groups' names, but not in the overlap of the names of countries and cultures.... But perhaps I am delving too far into politics here! Nojamus (talk) 17:45, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

The Justinian pic needs to go. He was actually born in Leskovac, Central Serbia, which is quite far from the border with FYROM, he was certainly not a Slavic Macedonian, nor is that mosaic of him located on the territory of FYROM. Therefore there is not a single valid reason why that pic should be included in this article. --Tsourkpk (talk) 19:55, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

And please, add him to the page about Greece or Greek history. 213.97.51.67 (talk) 14:09, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Kosovo

The map of Kosovo is missing. Kosovo should be reflected on the map because it is now a Republic --Arber (talk) 09:51, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

They are still not a republic. Self-declaring something is not encyclopedic fact. It's just news. The same thing is with Skopje. Self-declaring a name doesn't mean that is fact/closed case. We should wait. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.103.155.16 (talk) 22:35, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

It is very biased to describe the Republic of Kosovo as a Serbian Province. We should adopt the neutral sounding "Kosovo" rather than "breakaway province of Kosovo" or "Republic of Kosovo".

Clearly, Kosovo fulfills the all attributes of a state - it has a defined territory, a defined people and defined government.

The only countries that refuse to accept it are countries without a vested interest in preventing the right of countries to declare independence, bacaue they have provinces which might want to breakaway, for example:

Canada with Quebec; Spain with the Basque Country; Serbia which claims Kosovo; Bonsia with the Republic of Srpska; Russia with Chechnya; Cyprus with Northern Cyprus; Sri Lanka with the Tamil Northern areas; China with Taiwan and Tibet; Azerbajan with Nagorno-Karabakh; Georgia with South Ossetia and Abkhazia Moldova with Transnistria

Countries without a vested interest in preventing independence have invariably recognized the independence of Kosovo. There is no chance that Kosovo will not achieve universal recognition shortly - most countries who have not yet recognised Kosovo have explicitly stated that the will not be among the first to do so, so as not to *support" independence. In three months, one year's time, will anyone say Kosovo is not independent. No - those who currently deny its independence will shortky find themselves standing on the wrong side of history. 2007apm (talk) 21:55, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Wow, you're way off base. First of all, Canada has not recognized Kosovo's independence but, judging from its very pro-US government right now, it really is only a matter of days or weeks before it does so. Secondly, there are examples of countries with territorial disputes that HAVE recognized its independence. Have you forgotten the UK and that pesky trouble in Northern Ireland, for example? The point is this: it is impossible to draw many general conclusions about who is supporting and who isn't supporting Kosovo's independence. The only pertinent one I see is that the West generally is, and the East generally isn't, supporting it. This has more to do with who gets to benefit from small, weak, dependent states than it does with whether a country has its own territorial squabbles. But why are we discussing Kosovo on this page, anyway? Nojamus (talk) 18:48, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

MAp

Someone remove the redundant weasel tactic monastery pic and restore the map with the Thracians pertaining to the antiquity to its proper position and size .Megistias (talk) 19:39, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism

Put it back polybiush diff Megistias (talk) 16:13, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

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