Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 10:05, 31 March 2008

It is currently 03:07 where I am

Please place any questions or comments for me at the bottom of this page. Thanks.

Archives

1 - Mostly Exra Wax, Stevertigo, and questions about Jewish articles and anti-semitism 2 - Mostly DNA and genes, WHEELER and fascism 3 - some discussion of capitalism; debates on whether Jesus existed, and the cultural and historical background for Jesus 4 - Jesus, Jesus, Jesus 5 - Cheese Dreams and Jesus; race and evolution, capitalism, circumcision 6 - BCE/CE versus BC/AD 7 - BCE/CE versus BC/AD; FT2 and Cultural and Historical Background of Jesus 8 - Jesus, Bible, anti-Semitism, Martin Luthor, and the tip of the Virago iceberg 9 10 11 12 13 - The Bible, Evolution, Filllllll, Jesus, Race, advice for new admins 14 - a lot of race and intelligence stuff 15 - Fascism, Pharisees, and Race 16 17 - race, ethnicity and NOR 18 September 2007 19 October & November 2007 20 December 2007 21 January-February 2008 (Figs, psychohistory, ethnicity) 22 23 24 25 26 27

Colleenthegreat

Hi, I've looked over about a couple dozen of her contributions. The funny thing is, she edits a lot of obscure articles of which the added content is quite difficult to verify. She seems a little strange, but at the moment I think she's still tolerable... until paths cross again of course. Chensiyuan (talk) 13:10, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

FYI, after this bad decision of hers, I reblocked her to autoblock her IP addresses. Given the time delay, I've added a few days to your block as well. I also protected her talk page (for only a day) so that she will realize that this is not appropriate to do. If you know of what particular articles she was playing with, we should go looking for the other account she mentioned. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:09, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Given her last comment, would you object if I unblocked her? She has a different tone, finally. Perhaps she could use a mentor? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 19:14, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Sahansdsal

I am new to wikipedia and have a ton of questions. I want to add a new "Alternative Views" addition to the Jesus article, which is semi-protected. Can someone give me some guidance? Is there a way to PM users here? Sahansdal (talk) 05:35, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

French people

Hi, don't know how interested you are, but Epf is now saying that he will start a "proper" French peope article called "French people (ethnic group)" which will be about "indigenous ethnic French". I have warned him that this constitutes OR. I also think it is a clear pov-fork. He has not managed to get his way in the French people article, he wants to remove people who he sees as not "ethnically French", but no one agrees with him. I'd appreciate it if you could find time to comment here and here. If you don't have the time then I understand. Thanks. Alun (talk) 11:45, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi Rubenstein. I suggest you ignore these accusations by Alun since although I intend to create a separate article, I have never used the words that it will be a "proper" French people article. The new article I am proposing will be created by users who support it and wish to take part in it, working from a neutral POV and valid references. It will be distinct from the "French people" article since it will focus on the ethnic group and be appropriately titled "French (ethnic group)", simialr to Dutch (ethnic group). The "French people" article focuses on all French, nationals and citizens, regardless of ethnic origins. Most others in the discussion recognize this and so far no one else has opposed my proposition. I had made complaints about the inclusion of people in the photo selection who were not ethnically French, of non-French descent or those who were not born or raised in France (Marie Curie and Josephine Baker) with regards to the current "French people" article but have since retracted them. I have support from one other user in terms of these complaints about that specific photo selection, but again no one apart from Alun has opposed the creation of a separate article on specifically French ethnicity since there is no valid basis to do so. Ciao, Epf (talk) 01:25, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

It's not the same though is it? Dutch people redirects to Dutch (ethnic group), they are not different articles. You want to create two distinct articles (French people and French (ethnic group), based on your belief that ethnicity is primarily defined by ancestry. But French people do not all share a greater degree of ancestry with each other than to people from different groups, they share the greatest degree of ancestry with the people geographically closest to them. For example someone from Marseilles will share a greater degree of ancestry with someone from the proximate regions of Spain and Italy than they will with someone from the very north of France. Alun (talk) 09:10, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Guideline

What do you think about my suggestion for having some sort of guideline for ethnic groups on Misplaced Pages? I seem to be having the same dispute with Epf over and over again at different articles. I think it would therefore be a good idea to have a guideline about ethnic identity that could be used when it comes to discussing ethnic groups or ethnicity here. I'd rather have this argument in one place where we can really thrash it out. I don't pretend to be any sort of expert on this, and it may be that sometimes I am talking a lot of nonsense, which is another reason why I think it would be a good idea to have a guideline. Epf is really annoying me now and I'm increasingly loosing my temper with him, obviously this is a bad thing because it is difficult to remain civil when one's temper is up. You know me, sometimes I get carried away and end up "feeding the troll" when it would be better to keep quiet, old habits die hard. Maybe the guideline is a bad idea, I don't know, but it seems stupid to me to be having the same debate over and over again at different articles. What I don't understand is that Epf is using more or less the same argument and applying it to different ethnic groups, but surely all ethnic groups use different criteria for identification? Or am I just hopelessly ignorant? Anyway I'd very much appreciate your thoughts about whether we need a guideline or not because I have a deep admiration for the solid work you do here and the lucid analyses you provide. Hope all is well with you. Cheers, Alun (talk) 18:21, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Pov-pushers

If someone is truly a POV-Pusher, then evidence to that fact from either community consensus via an RfC or an ArbCom case has proven it. Even so, I don't think name-calling would ever help. Saying such a person's edits seem to be pushing a pov has much less sting and is less hostile than saying "you're a POV-pusher". If somebody tells me that it looks like I'm pushing a POV with such-and-such an edit, they'll get a much more positive response than if they accuse me of being a pov-pusher... I think those criteria are what needs to be put into place. The essay "call a spade a spade" has been abused time and time again to attack edtiors that are being disagreed with for having a different POV than the accusing editor. A majority of the time, the worst pov-pushers are the ones accusing others of being the same. It's an ugly situation that really needs to be addressed. NPA and even CIV say to talk about the edtitorial content of articles and not attack other edtiors. Civil comments about someone's behavior are allowed, but name-calling and hostility are not welcome. If ArbCom identifies an editor is a pov-pusher, and makes sanctions or restrictions - then violations of those restrictions should be pointed out..but what's the point of name-calling and saying "oh, you're just a pov-pusher". Too easily abused. That's the point I'm trying to make on WP:SPADE. I think you were making a similar, but perhaps slightly different point here. Dreadstar † 17:45, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Accusing someone of violating a policy or guideline is fine, but too many times I've seen editors accuse other editors of being pov-pushers while pushing a pov themselves. I don't see how name calling helps. When someone is pushing a pov, that means they're violating WP:NPOV, so saying that the person is violating NPOV with such-and-such edit is fine. But who decides an editor is a pov-pusher? Some editors regularly use it as a weapon to try and disenfranchise or ridicule other editors. So far, I've seen individual or like-minded editors making this decision within their own limited group. Hell, I've been called a pov-pusher, but I'm not...how do I get them to stop calling me that? By filing an RfC or RfArb? Why put the onus on the falsely-accusd to have to prove they're not a pov-pusher. I say put that onus on the ones wanting to engage in name-calling, make them RfC or ArbCom suspected POV pushers and have sanctions applied.

Here's another example of an unfair attack, one that seems to have driven a good editor from editing an article that she has expertise in...it's these types of attacks that need to be dealt with. Giving anyone an excuse to engage in hostile name-calling, like "pov-pusher" or "woo-woo" or "crank" is against civility, there are other ways to identify and deal with problematic editors. Dreadstar † 19:37, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Say, did you mean that name calling doesn't help: in the beginning of this post? Dreadstar † 19:44, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Talk: French people

Wow, resorting to personal attacks and insults with no factual basis whatsoever. It seems that you are both the ones who lack credibility in these discussions. Just because I interpreted a source and its information differently (and clearly more accurately if you look at the description of demographics in other countries of the US Department of State's background notes, which deals with the ethnic composition) from yours does not mean I am "lying". Honestly, I don't really care if you think "I haven't made a good argument" and it is quite obvious that neither of you have made a valid response to them. My conclusion is that both of you have resorted to personal insults (please see WP:No Personal Attacks) because my POV and arguments strongly challenge yours. You are both abrasive and ignorant users and I am personally fed up with your "ganging-up" method of dealing with very supported viewpoints from other users that challenge your own. When someone interprets an issue differently with strong reasoning behind it, it does not merit you to make ad hominem arguments. Whatever relevance you had in this discussion has evaporated. Epf (talk) 15:34, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Clearly you and Ramdrake make good contributions to Wiki like the rest of us, but these latest slew of insults towards myself from the both of you (but not from anyone else) on Talk:French people and Talk: Franz Boas are unacceptable. I have made clear and concise arguments. You disagree with them, fine, but groundless insults are not needed or acceptable to Misplaced Pages. I don't know what your problem is, but give it a rest and stop acting like you have the moral or intellectual "high ground", because its ridiculous.

"...nothing will prove Epf wrong - he is like an unfalsifiable experiment, just not science"
"Epf is a joke."
"...he has returned to his pattern of lying and misrepresentation."
"...his reading comprehension skills are so deficient that one just cannot assign any value to his research."
"My only conclusion would be that he seems to live in a world where the rules of logic differ in significant ways from the ones they have in this world." - Ramdrake

One more thing, I never intended for or stated anywhere that the US Department of State definition of the ethnic composition of the France is alone justification for the creation of a French ethnic group article. Read correctly before you make ignorant comments. You, Alun and Ramdrake disagree with me, fine, but don't resort to "ganging-up" tactics and personal attacks. I have made a valid concern and argument regarding 'French people' but no where made edits about those without consensus or agreement, so please do tell me what the hell is your problem ? I know my research and knowledge in anthropological areas is solid, so your insults don't mean anything, but it is still unacceptable. If you have a personal problem with me, what can I really do about that ? Epf (talk) 16:14, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

My two cents on a question which seems to have been nagging you

To me, it is clearly anti-Semitic, and I would hazard it's personal. The fact that his edit went up very shortly after you chewed his head off one more time for his POV pushing IMHO confirms the fact. Sorry, just had to put in my tuppence. Don't care if Jagz tries to use it as evidence of collusion; to me it ain't, and I'm not going to worry about it: not worth it. Have a good one.--Ramdrake (talk) 21:01, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Went back to ANI, and raised the flag once more.--Ramdrake (talk) 22:26, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Judaism

many thanks for your understanding. Yvantanguy (talk) 12:16, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

		What a Brilliant Idea Barnstar
		Your idea for reorganization of the R&I article is brilliant. TheRedPenOfDoom (talk) 13:20, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Race_and_intelligence#Reorganizing_the_article

Your ideas look great, I just hope the nutters, racists and the rest can be reined in.

On question: are you aware of any cases were IQ has been measured periodically in nations where socio-economic and other environmental factors have improved dramatically? It would seem logical to me that as socio-economic status improves, the educational system should improve, access to literature and other learning materials should increase, more time should be available for exploring pursuits of the mind rather than engaging in physical labour, thus IQ scores should rise. •Jim62sch• 16:10, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

In line with Jim's suggestion, maybe there's enough data on IQ testing say in India over the last 50 to 100 years to make the point. These seem to indicate that many studies on the factors affecting IQ were undertaken in India. Found those with a 5-min search, and didn't read them, so I can't vouch how really germane they are, but someone with a better access to scientific research literature than me could probably have a field day.--Ramdrake (talk) 11:24, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Jim. Your ideas are outstanding, and we're here to help and to lead as necessary. The article, as now written, gives too much weight to the nutjob theories. I only ran across this article because I watch MastCell's page, and so a posting from you. When I read the article, and the edit history, I nearly got ill. OrangeMarlin 00:10, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

• Hi, I've expanded (and then expanded, and then expanded) my thoughts on guidlines for the aricle Guidelines for the Race-IQ edit war, in my sandbox for the moment as I don't want to add yet more yardage to the talk pages Nick Connolly (talk) 11:55, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
• Thanks for your kind comments. I do think we need to rename the article to "The Race IQ debate", as a race and intelligence article it isn't NPOV but as a Race and IQ article its more NPOV :). The leap from IQ to g to intelligence is itself controversial. I think many people have (reasonably) a low opinion of IQ testing and hence any speculation based on IQ tests will look to them very weak. I agree with you statement about experts from appropriate fields but that will occur anyway: Jensens views have been critcised by anthropologists (Montagu), biologists (Leowontin, Gould) and psychometricians (Flynn). Most of that is already in there. I think the best structure for the article, without major rewrite, is as a debate; claim, counter-claims, response. The Jensen et al position gets a boost by being the main focus, the counter-positions get a boost by sheer numbers. Nick Connolly (talk) 20:52, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Brahmo

Thank you for you message about the article Brahmo. It seems to be a rather pointless fork of Brahmo Samaj. I'm not sure what point you are making about images. As I'm sure you know, Roy was influenced by Islamic and Judeo-Christian ideas about an unrepresentable creator-God, and rejected Hindu iconophiliac tradition. However, his 1830 principles involved no proscription of images as such, only of depictions of God within sacred spaces. Some which ago I created an article on one of leading Brahmos, Protap Chunder Mozoomdar, and uploaded an image of him. I have seen no objections on that page or on the pages devoted to Ram Mohan Roy himself. I can see no good reason why Brahmo should not be merged with Brahmo Samaj. Paul B (talk) 01:48, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Dear Mr.S.L.Rubenstein. Mr.Barlow has just placed a "merge" tag on Brahmo and Brahmo Samaj. It appears to be triggered by a message you sent him to which I am not privy. This "merge" tag is quite unacceptable to me and is certain to result in edit wars. It is unfortunate (in my view) that this is being sought to be done when the Brahmo page is under expansion and development to the eventual highest standards of Misplaced Pages - whereas the Brahmo Samaj page is relatively stagnant / static and fails miserably to conform to WP despite passage of time. After going through certain User Talks between yourself and Mr.Barlow I gather that both have you have interacted often. I would not like our little Brahmo article to be used to settle "Abrahamic" debates nor will we take sides but we shall resolutely defend our faith in public in complete accordance with Misplaced Pages norms, protocols and conventions. Your point about "images" is a core issue for Brahmos - you appear to have caught the essence of it (which imho Mr. Barlow has not) but again I am not privy to what you have communicated to Mr.Barlow. Ram Mohun Roy was influenced by many things (some of which are not in the public domain nor should ever be), but as I have said (to you) the fact that he may have been influenced by Judeo (?) ideas is unproveable. You can be assured that User:Ronosen shall not make such unsubstantiated claims in WP again. The fact that Mr. Barlow uploaded an image to Protap Chunder Mozoomdar without objection is irrelevant- since Mr.Mozoomdar (in our view) is not a Brahmo. Mr.Barlow may care to re-read Mr.Sib Chunder Deb's famous 1878 reply to Mr.Mozoomdar who was then Asst. Secretary of the Brahmo Samaj of India. Had Mr. Barlow uploaded an image of Debendranath Tagore to the Brahmo Samaj page there would have been uproar. This is also not the place or time or forum to educate Mr.Barlow about all aspects of Brahmoism. I am also copying this to Mr.Barlow and formally voicing my opposition to his merger proposal and requesting him to remove the merger tag himself. If at all it is possible we should all resolve this privately on MY Talk page rather than on the Brahmo Samaj Talkpage which is like throwing a match into a pool of petrol (gasoline). My apology for any indiscretion/ lapse/ inadvertent offence. Yvantanguy (talk) 05:50, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Dear Slrubenstein.I am very sorry for intruding on your time again. Almost immediately to User:Ronosen's comments on Judaism, the Brahmo Samaj group have yesterday released this document on the internet, http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dssvmvw_57f8j8f4fw which claims that Ram Mohun Roy studied Talmud, Tarjums of Jonathan and Hilel, Syriac, pre-Christ Rabbinacal commentaries etc. The speech delivered in 1933 (the venue is intensely controversial) concludes "Thus the Raja’s mind was enriched with the highest and the best in Semitic culture in both the Hebraic and Arabic traditions, and above all he imbibed in an unbiased spirit the Christian culture, which he traced to a blend of Hebraic stock with Greek, Roman and heathen grafts.". We are very troubled, because it was never our intention to interfere in other people's affairs or thrust into their histories. My question to you is if the said document (in your valued neutral opinion) meets WP standards / policy for citation especially in core theology for WP? I specify that this query is not with respect to Judaism. Yvantanguy (talk) 09:37, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

R&I article

Don't call other editors racists on Talk page. Not even one more time. --Jagz (talk) 05:55, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I've struck out the above "threat" and am reviewing the situation. Sorry for taking so long to respond to your comment.--Jersey Devil (talk) 20:26, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Kinship

• Hi, I just read your post on my talk page and I'm going to go over those sources at some point. I think including the information by Wolf on the ethnic group article is fine, though it does need to be cleaned up a little and condensed. Considering the pertinence between the two articles, do you agree for now with at least leaving the current link to Kinship on the Ethnic group article ? Epf (talk) 07:41, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Community sanction noticeboard for Jagz, anyone?

Like the headline says. I'm about to lose all remaining patience over this. Suggestions welcome.--Ramdrake (talk) 11:00, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Copyright queries about Images hosted on Brahmo Samaj page

Dear Slrubestein. Perhaps recent discussion on Talk page of Brahmo Samaj may interest you. I sense some interesting parallels with your (?) somewhat recent comments under "WHY?" on Mr. Paul_B's Talk page. Thanks and my apology if I am bothering you. Yvantanguy (talk) 17:43, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

mediation

sounds increasingly necessary. some kind of structure is needed. everytime i think we've hit on some point of agreement, one of the dozen or so editors in the discussion says we have not. --Legalleft (talk) 22:58, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I've suddenly understood where the communication problem appears to be. --Legalleft (talk) 23:31, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

How do we now formally procede with mediation? I agree to Tim Vickers, do we each have to send some sort of overt agree somewhere? Nick Connolly (talk) 19:11, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I've put a link to the Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation on the article's talk page. I haven't run a mediation before, so I'm not sure if I'd be the best choice, although I could comment on the text if the mediator thought that would be useful. Tim Vickers (talk) 21:11, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Concerning the mediation, one possible way to go forward would be to proceed with mediation without naming Jagz as a party (basically, considering him as a pure troll). I believe his last objections seem to confirm that he is likely to be one (at least as far as this article is concerned), and that this might be a permissible way to proceed.--Ramdrake (talk) 23:00, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

a useful template

Do you remember the conversation we had last autumn about creating a user warning for hate speech. Well somebody else got round to making one for racially motivated editing - Template:Uw-ra. Hopefully you wont need to use it but its always helpful to have these things to hand--Cailil 23:52, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Glossary of Christian and Jewish terms

Another editor has added the {{prod}} template to the article Glossary of Christian and Jewish terms, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but the editor doesn't believe it satisfies Misplaced Pages's criteria for inclusion, and has explained why in the article (see also Misplaced Pages:What Misplaced Pages is not and Misplaced Pages:Notability). Please either work to improve the article if the topic is worthy of inclusion in Misplaced Pages or discuss the relevant issues at its talk page. If you remove the {{prod}} template, the article will not be deleted, but note that it may still be sent to Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. BJBot (talk) 08:59, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

If you keep up the personal attacks like on the R&I Talk page and Tim Vickers Talk page, I will post a complaint on the Administrators' noticeboard. --Jagz (talk) 10:05, 31 March 2008 (UTC)