Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 01:30, 8 April 2008

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Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search)

• Refining the administrator elections process
• AI-generated images depicting living people
• Blocks for promotional activity outside of mainspace
• Voluntary RfAs after resignation
• Proposed rewrite of WP:BITE
• LLM/chatbot comments in discussions

Betacommand and SVGs

(Moved to AN/B --Random832 (contribs))

Timestamp --Random832 (contribs) 14:33, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

User:Grawp mass talk page protection

I've already announced this on IRC, but I have just pre-emptively locked all user talk pages of any suspected or confirmed account of User:Grawp. Anyone who has any experience with this user will know why I've done this - for those who don't, Grawp is a page move vandal with over 200 known sock accounts and more appearing by the minute. Since most of his accounts are now blocked, he's recently taken to (I assume with the help of a bot) adding an unblock template to each of his talk pages, along with a 2MB image that will cause even the fastest connection to lock up. This of course attracts the attention of unsuspecting admins, who immediately start cursing their computers when they hang up. To avoid this, all known accounts have had their talk pages indefinitely protected - this does include IP's, which I am about to go back through and review, but I'm afraid even those we can't really afford to unprotect for long, if at all. He immediately picks up on any page he is able to edit. Admins should delete (G3) and immediately salt any of these talk pages they encounter. For a while, at least, it may be a good idea to use popups to view page histories before viewing the actual page at CAT:RFU, because more accounts are constantly surfacing. Hersfold 06:26, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

You may have missed this one My mistake, it's been blocked. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) 09:28, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Just to clarify; they are about 1900KB, or nearly 2 million bytes in size. So yeah, they're pretty big, and will probably lock your browser, unless you load the history, like Hersfold said. - Rjd0060 (talk) 14:24, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

In case anyone is curious, the pages are 12 copies each of two absolutely-positioned objects: a large table-background-color image of Goatse, and a smaller pure ascii-art "LOL WUT" avocado. --Random832 (contribs) 04:13, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

The link included in the edit summaries takes you to the same thing. Some way to snip the edit summaries so unsuspecting newbies don't get lured in? Nobody of Consequence (talk) 02:59, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Deleting the page works for that. --Random832 (contribs) 14:46, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

That, and recently, the edit summaries have not included links. -Jéské 19:41, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

User:Stone put to sky continues to make personal attacks

User:Stone put to sky has been blocked for 3RR violations, using multiple sockpuppets, personal attacks against me, and violating WP:Username by making attack accounts on my name.

Warned again one month ago for new attacks.

Continues now with new attacks.

"Blah blah blah. One hoppy 'roo can confuse even the best tracker. Trainor is Ultramarine's boy, and all here know it. What comes out of one goes right in the other, in and out in an ugly smear, and neither could reckon straight on the least part of their back yard, much less anything outside their beloved U.S. Keep your eyes on the content, boys, and stop -- how do ya say it? edit warring? Stop. I have nothing wrapped up in this place and will be happy to take your names before the grand board of hoo-hahs."

"But anyone who knows wikipedia and has been around this page for any length of time knows that the only person who behaves dishonorably here is you"

"You've been kicked out of Wikiipedia so many times that your backside has treadmarks on it."

Aho aho is a sockpuppet of Stone put to sky..Ultramarine (talk) 11:38, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I think that some strong words are needed to calm everything down. Maybe some informal admin mediation? But certainly the atmosphere is too bitter.

As for the request user result, what does "likely" mean for Misplaced Pages's purposes? Is it treated as the same as "confirmed", or what? Sky has already been blocked for sockpuppet use. If people believe he is doing it currently then that should be stopped, especially as it is not a declared sockpuppet account. Given the level of disagreements over the article in question using sockpuppets is even more dangerous than usual - assuming he is. John Smith's (talk) 14:46, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

As a point of reference, of the four "likely" sockpuppets listed in the checkuser request, only User:Thecryptthing was indefinitely blocked - the others were not, however. I'm not sure why this is. John Smith's (talk) 14:52, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

For the record, Thecryptthing was blocked after an earlier case, along with the others that were, in that case,  Confirmed. — the Sidhekin (talk) 11:32, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Ah, so that's why that account was blocked. But what happens with "likely" results? I think this is where I'm not clear on what should be done with these other accounts. It is suspicious that of the three not blocked, only Aho aho continued to post - the others stopped. John Smith's (talk) 13:17, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

• • Moriss levy (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
  • Thecryptthing (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
  • Aho aho (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
  • YumpinYimini (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
  • Ultrastoopid (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
  • UntimelyMaroon (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
    • Are all abusive sockpuppets of User:Stone put to sky per User:Thatcher's checkuser. All those accounts need to be blocked and SPTS needs to be blocked as an abusive sockpuppeteer. --DHeyward (talk) 05:50, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

So can we get an administrative remedy here? A timed topic ban perhaps? Otherwise he will keep attacking these pages with socks. - Merzbow (talk) 02:09, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Ultramarine and Stone put to sky have been editing warring on the same controversial page for months. I agree with User:John Smith's, the only person, to my knowledge, who has not been personally involved with Stone put to sky that some "informal admin mediation" is appropriate.Trav (talk) 13:43, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Close, but it's really Ultramarine and SPTS's army of sock puppets, including two that were crated to disparage UM's user name, that have been edit warring. User:Stone put to sky should be blocked for violating policy and it will end two problems. --DHeyward (talk) 14:06, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

My two cents are they should both be blocked. The page has turned into a war ground for both of them, the few attempts I make to reach a middle ground with either are often met with repetitive arguments, such as Ultramarines continued insinuation that there is a double standard, even though everyone has told him otherwise, and Stone's continued need to battle him. Ultramarines passive aggressive behavior should be examined, and Stones harsh replies to it. While I myself have been annoyed with Ultra for his constant circular arguments, and appeals to random policies as it suits him, the goal is to maintain civility on such a hot button topic. Due to both, primarily Ultra, and it seems the new arrival of DHeyward, I have had to step back from the article.

The participants on it seem to feel they are in a war for the United States, taking each item in the article as personal attacks, renaming the article after not even participating on the talk page, and worst of all appearing here to ask one of the problem people have action taken against them and not the other. Unfortunately everyone's, including my own behavior, has been sub par, perhaps the article should be deleted to save Misplaced Pages, what appears to be, a handful of good editors.

Just to add it was eluded by Giovanni33 that John Smith and himself are suppose to be avoiding each other due to past admin action, yet John Smith appeared on the page a short while ago, of course arguing the point counter to Giovanni, this article has been turned into a battleground, I am starting to wonder if anyone is really arguing over the article content anymore, or if its a continued fight over past issues. --N4GMiraflores 16:00, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Giovanni is incorrect. There is no restriction on either of us avoiding pages that the other works on.

If a community sanction is to be placed on both Ultramarine and Sky then that may be appropriate. However, that does not address the issue of whether Sky has been abusing sockpuppets. There was a "likely" result that was not properly processed. I still would like clarification as to how the administration deals with "likely" results and a formal decision made as to whether any action will be taken over the report or not. If it is left idle that will cause more problems. John Smith's (talk) 18:22, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

This article was a mess when I dropped out months ago and is still a mess. It's always been under attack by banned users and socks (socks of NuclearUmph and FAAFA were caught and banned there), when it's not under full prot. Certainly there has been bad behavior on all sides, but abusive socking is unacceptable and needs to be immediately addressed. The alternative is going to be ArbCom (which may in fact be the only entity capable of cleaning this up). - Merzbow (talk) 18:24, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

User:Meowy deleted talk page

User:Meowy deleted talk page documents and edits on Talk:Armenian Genocide. this is not first. i want to NPOV article. i have documents. some peoples blocks and delete this documents from article also from Talk Page. someone hide facts.--Qwl (talk) 20:18, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

The overall diff for reference. Grandmasterka 20:29, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

The removed talk-page material was clearly off-topic and would not have led to any improvement to the article. In the past the talk page for Armenian Genocide has been particularly badly affected by off-topic clutter that often pushes out legitimate and constructive contributions. I should also point out that the article and talk page has recently become a magnet for those seeking only arguments due to an email that has been sent to http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2008-March/092492.html a wikipedia mailing list, and that has also been mentioned in Turkish and Armenian websites, news reports, and forums. Meowy 16:45, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

if there is magnet you think somethink is wrong. rules are clear. deniers documents and references are clear. but Armenian Genocide full biased. and someone still try to block article and also talk page. Where is 💕 NPOV rules? and where is Admins? trolling!POV FORK--Qwl (talk) 19:52, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

BTW, that email sent to Misplaced Pages originated from "The Turkish Association for Fighting Against Unfounded Genocide Allegations", based in Erzurum's Ataturk University, an institution renowned for churning out genocide-denialist propaganda. They are curently running an email campaign against Misplaced Pages. Quote, from their chairman, "When you browse the English version of Misplaced Pages which publishes its content in various languages, one notices an issue in complete contrast with the Misplaced Pages principles. In the english website while the article on Armenian allegations concerning the incidents of 1915 contain all the thesis of the Armenian diaspora, the Turkish thesis are excluded. The web site allows users to make editions in all subjects, but it does not allow edition of the article on Armenian allegations. The site only provides the theses of the Armenian diaspora. This is a great injustice against the Turkish Nation". Meowy 21:46, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

what do you want to do? do you try to legalize hiding of documents and deletion with a reference of deniers organisation email.?

not Only Turkey. six countries refuse the genocide! here:genocide deniers Turkey , Azerbaijan , UK , Israel , Denmark , Bulgaria. this article series are full biased--Qwl (talk) 15:45, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Sesshomaru and Tyar

• On User talk:Sesshomaru there is an edit war going on between User:Sesshomaru and User:Tyar. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 20:30, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't even know what Tyar's problem with Sesshomaru is even after looking at his contribution history, but this sort of harassment and crap is unacceptable. Tyar was blocked for a week just now and I endorse it. Grandmasterka 20:39, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Sesshomaru has dealt with a lot of sockpuppets lately, mostly from banned user JJonz. Redrocket (talk) 20:46, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

He also is very quick to call things vandalism whether they are or not. A recent example involved User:Tylar, and is probably the origin of Tylar's bad behaviour, if yer curious. 86.44.26.69 (talk) 02:36, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I disagree, but for the sake of discussion, the blocked user you're referring to is actually Tyar. Tyar was blocked yesterday, and has also been blocked again today as 75.183.4.204 for personal attacks and sockpuppetry.

Thanks! Luckily User:Tylar is a redlink. I'm sorry you disagree about the other issue. I came across three other examples yesterday before seeing this thread. Template:uw-vandalism4 had been added in two of them. It's not a good practice, misleads newcomers and leads to drama. Misplaced Pages:Vandalism is a good read on this. 86.44.26.69 (talk) 00:48, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I'll agree with you that sometimes users jump too quickly to V4 warnings, thus biting the newbies. However in this situation, User talk:Tyar had already been blocked twice for edit warring and harassment. Redrocket (talk) 01:00, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

User:Luksuh massively adding {{references}}

I've got several articles in my watchlist with this user's last edit adding {{references}} with an edit summary of {{references}}. He added this template to hundreds of articles when it is obviously not necessary. For example, there's no need to add this template in a music album article. Please refer to the user's contribs for evidence Should we revert all his edits? Maybe ask him about this? Tasc0 21:00, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

• I don't see why it's unjustified in an album article such as this or this. I see no reason to revert these, as they appear to be in good faith and accurate. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • 21:07, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
• Are music albums exempt form WP:V and WP:RS, then? Guy (Help!) 21:09, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
• What admin action is needed here? Tiptoety 21:41, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I understand that if an album article has some information about how many units were sold or in what charts the album peaked, the template should be placed. But like the first example you have (Noble Justice) there's no need to add this template.

I also understand these edits are made in good faith, but that does not mean they are correct. That's why I asked it here. Tasc0 22:14, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Noble Justice is Young Noble's debut studio solo album, released in 2002.{{fact}} --Haemo (talk) 23:33, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

• Ahem. All articles require references. That is all. ➪HiDrNick! 23:20, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I would of course agree usually, but most album articles have so little content, amounting to ' x is an album by y' and a picture of the album cover, they are IMHO only worth redirecting to the artist anyway. We typically don't need refs in the lead sentence, so if there's only one sentence, a listed ref might be longer than the article. But if people want a source for 'x is the third album by y' or, rarely, a list of the songs on the album, all of which is often in the article about the artist anyway, I suppose we could have it. Sorry- rant over lol.:) special, random, Merkinsmum 00:33, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, yours is an excelent arguement against the strange practice of alblums inheriting notability from their artist. But that's neither here nor there.  :) ➪HiDrNick! 02:47, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

• I don't see how a release date should be cited with a source. Let's all add this template to every single article that does not have at least one source cited. Tasc0 03:44, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
• WP:V. any material challenged or likely to be challenged should be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation. "Noble Justice is Young Noble's debut studio solo album, released in 2002." is not a statement that is likely to be challenged. Obviously the article has no references; we can see that. We don't need a massive boilerplate to tell us that. dihydrogen monoxide (H₂O) 03:49, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
• I suppose editors will likely have different perspectives on what information is "challengeable" or "likely to be challenged". With that said, the templates were added (I'm going to presume) in good faith. Those tags can be burdensome to look at, a little obtrusive, but all articles should have reliable sources. Just because something has little to no content is not a reason for exemption. In fact, if there aren't any because of that reason, one might have to question whether there should be an article on it period - an album/song for instance. Merging is always an option. Wisdom89 _{(T / )} 05:21, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
• I'm truly very, very sorry for any controversy I may have caused, but it is my understanding of Misplaced Pages:Verifiability that all articles require verifiable sources. As is said on the policy page: "...readers should be able to check that material added to Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source." I interpret this to mean that all articles need references. If I am wrong in assuming this, could somebody please explain the actual policy regarding references to me? Luksuh 05:41, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Luksuh, if you say that all articles require verifiable sources, how you'll verify the existance, let's say for example, of God? Not every single article in Misplaced Pages needs references. On a side note, at what point the community had a consensus on this? Is it really necessary to "verify and cite" a release date and track listing? Tasc0 06:01, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
    • No, it's not, and broad WP:ALBUMS discussion has agreed on this. Luksuh, please remove the references tag on articles where there is nothing to cite (ie. it was place correctly in some cases, with reviews etc., and there it should stay) and please be more careful in future when dealing with the award center. dihydrogen monoxide (H₂O)Signed retrospectively at 06:14, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
      • I'm also willing to remove the tag where there's no content to cite with references. Tasc0 06:12, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
        • That's fine with me... dihydrogen monoxide (H₂O) 06:14, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
    • how you'll verify the existance, let's say for example, of God? Simple: You won't. That's for Conservapedia, not an encyclopedia. You can, however, verify the existence of the concept of a God by citing verifiable, reliable sources that state "I/we/they/these particular people believe in a magical pixie-man on a cloud who is called God" or words to that effect. I'm not altogether comfortable with the {{ref}} tags being removed. They help establish notability, and give examples of the notable coverage an album has received. I wouldn't imagine WP:ALBUMS would "override" WP:V. --Badger Drink (talk) 07:25, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
    • how you'll verify the existance (sic), let's say for example, of God? See: God#Notes. Luksuh 19:29, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
      • Not going to the God topic because it's unrelated to this and it was just an example. This tag confuses a lot of users who read Misplaced Pages. Let's say a user is reading the artile used as example in this discussion (Noble Justice) and spot the tag, what they possible could think about that? "This album was not released in that date" "This artist did not make that album"? This massive tagging is just wrong. I'll be removing the tag like I said above, if somebody have any questions ask here or my talk page. Tasc0 23:35, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Template:Emmerdale episodes

This might seem quite trivial, but none the less it's frustrating me somewhat. The template Emmerdale episodes is used as a running tally to record episode numbers. Because of constant inconsistancies in date, I decided to change it to use the FULLDATE template which grabs the day when a date is entered. However, another "editor" (I use editor lightly) is persistant in reverting my change, with his reasoning being that "he prefers it the American style". This has nothing to do with cultural differences, as the show in question for the tally is British, coupled with the fact that his change means the day doesn't show, which has pretty much created an edit-war somewhat.

Ok, so that's pretty much the issue. As I said, I know it's trivial and I couldn't really see it as "vandalism", or at least what is normally described as vandalism, but possibly falling into edits without good reason with disrespect towards my civillity (I have been civil on his talk page). What's the best way to approach this? Cheers. Bungle 21:15, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Is there a standard for TV episode stamping? Whilst Emmerdale doesn't fit into a numbering system per se, it's easier it all TV episodic shows follow the same guidelines. Minkythecat (talk) 21:42, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Cultural rather than television; per WP:MoS (which is 'pedia wide) British related subjects should use Br-En grammar etc. conventions. Project guidelines should generally follow WP where there are multi-cultural applications (not that I wish to suggest that Emmerdale is "cultural" in anything but the loosest sense of the word!) LessHeard vanU (talk) 00:16, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

No idea what the situation with the episode numbering is, so I'll leave that for more informed people to resolve, but the matter regarding the date format can be resolved by recourse to WP:DATE and MOS:SYL. Have reverted to the last edit by Bungle and low-level-warned the other user accordingly. Note that my edit made some other change to the episode numbers - that may need to be looked at by someone else. Orderinchaos 04:40, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for raising the note about date formats and user-specific preferences. I don't believe there is a "set standard" for formatting with this kind of template, but as mentioned before, there is set standards and preferences for date formatting per geographical location. Orderinchaos, the actual numbering you mentioned is negligable to the problem and easily sorted, but my appreciations go to you for referring some useful and noteworthy policies, hopefully finding some resolution. Bungle 09:09, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Just calling attention to this one - The user Wingard (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is sterile-reverting edits to this template, including my most recent attempt to resolve the issue. A couple of eyes on this one would be good - thanks. Orderinchaos 19:10, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

This still continues to be an issue and the user in question doesn't seem to be changing his habits or indeed acknowleging there is a problem. Bungle 19:11, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Problem with IP address user- has dynamic IP so editing from constantly changing address

Special:Contributions/86.29.134.157 Special:Contributions/86.29.141.12 Special:Contributions/86.29.133.181 Special:Contributions/82.152.16.153

This user has ONLY made vandalism-related edits, so simply checking the logs for the IP addresses he/she uses will be all that's necessary.

This person has targeted myself, User: Bsrboy and User: Realist2. We all recently contributed to the Ivybridge Community College article and I suspect it is a student from that (my) school. The IP addresses would certainly place it within the region. Bsrboy is also a student at my school but not one in affiliation with me before our recent edits to the same Misplaced Pages page (we didn't even know each other existed) so my guess is that this is a non-personal assault by a student on anyone editing the page. He has posted photos of naked men on userpages, sworn ("Fuckers") used racial slurs and generally just...needs getting rid of. Realist2 was going to report this himself, but I'm sure if I do then there is no need for further comment from him unless you ask it of him. I don't know quite what is going on but I think it is clear that this is not something I can deal with. Please help if possible, thanks. (The Elfoid (talk) 01:11, 6 April 2008 (UTC))

Special:Contributions/86.133.6.176

Yet another alias of this same user. Can a dynamic IP be stopped?(The Elfoid (talk) 01:23, 6 April 2008 (UTC))

• All blocked for a week for harassment. They don't seem to realise that the more they do this, the more evidence there is a for a rangeblock which will cut them dead, but at present, it's not there. But it's close. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 01:39, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

There should be a perminant ban for using racist language (lol if only i was the King of wiki). Realist2 (talk) 02:46, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

My talk page got it again. I'm starting to wonder why anyone would be so dedicated to doing this....I have no enemies. (The Elfoid (talk) 00:18, 7 April 2008 (UTC))

86.29.135.72 - forgot to post the latest IP (The Elfoid (talk) 00:19, 7 April 2008 (UTC))

I just got caught in the middle of this, but it's a pretty serious problem. User:86.29.141.188 was just blocked, but as it seems only for a day. I'm going to request protection of Realist2's talk page for now. —  scetoaux (T|C) 01:30, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

User:Hoponpop69

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

This user was recently blocked for personal attacks, disruption, harassment, and abusive sock puppettry see here Then when the block expired, literally minutes afterwards he makes another personal attack. See here Dwrayosrfour (talk) 03:53, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

True, but the message that was being responded to was sardonic and goading. Wisdom89 _{(T / )} 05:23, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

That matters why? It was literally minutes after his block expired. He knew he was wrong, he quickly reverted this hoping no one would see it. The statement he was responding to certainly did not justify name-calling. Certainly not, seeing how hoponpop is infamous for this type of behaviour. Think about it, if you were minutes past the expiration of your last block and it was for this type of thing, would you start name-calling right away under any circumstances? This user has been warned no telling how many times, and has been blocked for this a few times as well. Dwrayosrfour (talk) 05:45, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

It matters because excluding context leads to poor decisions, and because admin powers should not be used to enable any one user to heckle others, nor to produce a chilling effect when the heckled user fails to react with saintly grace. This is an imperfect situation, yes, but it seems worth trying to salvage, at least at first glance. – Luna Santin (talk) 06:01, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

If I'm not mistaken he started the heckling, then called the guy a jerk when he heckled back. Dwrayosrfour (talk) 06:17, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

He undid his edit. But you were in a big rush to report him. I don't blame you, if you think he's a nasty editor, from doing this. But let him off for now as he reverted. If he's as wrong as all that, he'll do something again and get blocked soon enough.special, random, Merkinsmum 11:33, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

"Think" he is a nasty editor? The previous personal attacks, amongst other things were not minor. He was calling ppl horrible names i.e. retard, blind, stupid, dumb, self-hating Christian, ignoramus, etc. I too find it odd that under any circumstances it is ok for him to be minutes past his last block and resume name-calling. He obviously did not learn his lesson. I reported this user last time, and I think if nothing else he needs to be further warned about his actions. Hoponpop69 has been warned for this more times than one can count, and blocked a few times as well and this needs to be taken into consideration. I realize the term jerk isn't all that serious, but these are special circumstances. Landon1980 (talk) 16:06, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I want to add that the block he was minutes past the expiration of when he made another personal attack was the 8th block for the exact same behaviour. Landon1980 (talk) 15:55, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

It seems to me that the user is working on his behavior. He made a mistake, realized it on his own, and immediately fixed it. I think we should ignore this little incident. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 16:02, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh of course you do, you are right he does seem to be trying really hard. The fact he waited nearly 30 mins to resume name-calling proves th is, had he not been trying he would have just done it immediately. Also, it should also be ignored because he has only been blocked 8 times for the same thing, if it were around 500 blocks I would see the issue. Eight blocks just simply isn't enough for him to understand that he shouldn't do that under any circumstances. His last block was also for very minor things i.e. disruption, edit warring, harassment, abusive sock puppetry, and personal attacks so this also makes sense. The personal attacks themselves were very minor, it was merely names like blind, dumb, stupid, self-hating Christian, ignoramus, fool, retarded bastard, etc. Clearly not enough to have even constitute a block. In my opinion hoponpop is being treated unfairly, the blocking admin was clearly abusing his/her powers. I sure hope he stays after all this. He has definitely learned his lesson though, 8 blocks is always the magic number, 7 is clearly never enough. Landon1980 (talk) 22:21, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Ku Klux Klan

Ku Klux Klan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

God Save the South (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

GordonUS (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Hersfold (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

This needs some uninvolved admin eyes. My involvement is that I declined an {{unblock}} request from User:GordonUS, who had been blocked for 3RR. Today, I removed some racist POV pushing from the article. User:God Save the South, who has uploaded photos that he took at several Klan rallies and thus presumably an inference can be drawn there, added on several occasions today some pro-KKK POV to the aforementioned article. It was removed by several editors including me. I made a 3RR report and the user was blocked by User:Rudget for 48 hours. I would think that would be a non-controversial block. User:Hersfold removed that block without discussing it in any way - before or after - with the blocking admin and imposed instead a 48 hour article ban. He then threatened to block User:Baegis, a valued editor in good standing, for questioning this action. This needs review all around - the unblock needs review and admins are needed to keep an eye on the article to keep it from being whitewashed. --B (talk) 05:04, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I've fully protected the article until these disputes can be sorted out. I removed some KKK associations with the Nazi's yesterday on the basis that they were wholly uncited (edit warring had occurred previously on that topic), and I returned to the article today for another review and found it to be full of uncited original research... and a lot of pro-KKK POV. This crap is kind of getting old, so protected it shall be until the edits can be fully discussed. seicer | talk | contribs 05:33, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Just a note to tell that I was on the unblock IRC chan when the User:God Save the South made his unblock request. Rudget definitely sought input from us before lifting the block. The spirit was that since the user was blocked for not communicating, and was requesting unblock for being able to edit the talk page of the article (the unblock request was clearly implying he wouldn't edit the KKK article during the remaining time of the block), it was a win-win situation considering the amount of edits that were happening on this page (since the block was made to prevent this user from editing the article). -- lucasbfr 09:25, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Just a note, I think you meant I sought input before lifting the block - which I did. Lucas has made a good summary of the reasons for the unblock, which I have further elaborated on here. I would also note that I was not informed of the opening of this thread. Hersfold 17:13, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

• Just a note for any still concerned, hours after the situation seemed to have cooled off, OrangeMarlin has been blocked by Firsfron (link to block log). Happily, the user:God save the whatever, is free to do as he pleases (well, maybe he'll abide by the gentlemen's agreement not to edit the KKK article for the next few hours). That is all, R. Baley (talk) 23:48, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

• This was an extraordinarily ill-considered block, which I have reversed per WP:CDB and just plain common sense. The situation was gradually winding down and a block such as this would only serve to revive the flames. Raymond Arritt (talk) 00:01, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

The situation was certainly not "winding down"; as little as an hour ago OM was still hurling insults at the unblocking admin. However, if a block made less than an hour after the last insult would "fan the flames", it should be reversed. Firsfron of Ronchester 00:12, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

As for me, I'm trying to decide what was more extraordinarily ill-considered, Hersfold's unblock or Firsfron's block... El_C 06:34, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I've read the talkpages involved and I don't see OM "hurling insults" at anybody. He certainly seems aggrieved, but blocking him for saying that a member of the KKK is a racist would probably be upsetting to anybody. This looks like a simple statement of fact, rather than an insult, since I would think that by definition all members of the KKK are racists. Its like blocking somebody for saying that Nazis are antisemitic. Tim Vickers (talk) 23:02, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Continued harassment by Sethie

User Sethie has not stopped from disrupting the article I am trying to write in my user-space, . Even though I have made repeated request to him to stay out from disruptively editing the article, he has already voted for deletion of the article in MfD discussion, and does not wish to see an article about the subject on wikipedia, initially i assumed his good faith but his edits are more then disruptive, he is claiming that a supreme court docket is not a notable source and has removed the link form the article., Any attempt that i am making in working on the article he is simply reverting it from my user-space , , , same page has been tagged for speedy deletion twice by his group on wikipedia ,,and was rejected both times, then again it was tagged for MfD , by Renee, but they continued to disruptively edit the article and have not allowed me to work on the article so that I can finish it, get community feedback by filing RfC concerning all wikipedia guidelines and then publish it. I have also brought the matter in notice of ArbComm here. My request is, Sethie, Renee and their other wikipedia group members should not be allowed to disruptively edit the article I am trying to write. Help needed in this regard. --talk-to-me! (talk) 05:42, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Sethie has also removed my comments from MfD discussion stating that my comments about the discussion is blogging . He is not allowing me to write anywhere, be it my user-space or my input to MfD discussion. --talk-to-me! (talk) 05:46, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Please note that the blogging was not removed, but moved to the talk page of the MFD, as clearly noted in the edit summary here.

Also, please note that this user persists in posting libelous information putting Misplaced Pages at risk for a lawsuit (see this as an example, and this for explanation). Two courts in India have found that allegations of sexual abuse are prima facie libelous and defamatory with absolutely no basis in truth, and despite multiple reversions, this user persists in re-posting such libelous info. Sethie has been reverting the libel because the page it is getting Google hits.

It is my understanding that Misplaced Pages has zero tolerance for this sort of thing. Thankyou. Renee (talk) 08:52, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

p.s. BTW, this and this were the responses Cult Free World got when he "brought the matter in notice of ArbComm."

this is his user space, where he is mainly starting an article, those allegations mentioned from ex-members were subjects he thought should be discussed in the article, if we assume good faith. He may develop them from a neutral point of view, if not, other less-involved editors can help him, without blanking. For instance, to say "X has been alleged by ex-members, however Y has not been convicted of anything in a court of law." or something. I doubt Cult Free World will accept your input however, as you seem to have an ongoing disagreement. You would be best not to edit his userspace if he has made it clear that he doesn't wish you to do so- simply because it won't help. If you have concerns about anything he's written on a prospective article which he admits is not in a finished state, in his own user space, you can contact admins or others to take a look. But it should be bourne in mind that you may have a conflict of interest about this subject. Have you discussed your concerns about this article with him recently on his own user page? Or have you just blanked or altered parts of his user space, without further in-depth comment? special, random, Merkinsmum 11:49, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Dear Merkinsmum, I don't know if your note is to me or Sethie. First, I have reviewed the COI policy and can confirm I do not have a COI. This is one of the user's tactics, to say one is a paid member of a group (which is absolutely a lie) and he was blocked for making such personal attacks here. Knowledge about a topic does not equal COI; editing in a biased manner to safeguard some way of life or belief does. This is why this user has a serious conflict of interest -- he runs a blog on this group which makes it difficult for him to edit in any other way than in line with his POV user name.

And yes, most importantly, I and many of the other editors have tried to work with him (in this and his other incarnations (see this, this, this, and this), but all he does is attack, insist his sources are reliable and valid despite others not on the article pointing they aren't (see this, and

Renee anyone reading your comments on this discussion here will clearly understand your COI, this has been confirmed by another admin, whom you approached to get me blocked so that the article cannot be published . Your attempt to manipulate users on wikipedia also confirms your COI regarding this topic. This is the only reason as why i had requested you to stay out of development process. You have already tagged the page numerous times for deletion but every time it has been rejected by community. Your comments at this page, when this notice was for Sethie and not you also confirms your COI regarding this subject. This is the sole reason as why i have requested you many times to let me finish the work, so that i can get community feedback. and once again i am requesting you to stay outside the building process, so that i can finish the work soon. Once again kindly let me finish the work do not interrupt as you have done here The MfD discussion itself indicates that you do not want the court cases to come out in public domain, (your first edit was to remove all the court dockets) kindly understand wikipedia works on verifiable truth, do not attempt to hide information i have replied you here also. Now let me finish the work and let me get wikipedia standard confirmed by community and not by you. --talk-to-me! (talk) 15:07, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

None of what you post above reflects a COI of any sorts and no admin has ever confirmed such a thing; you only assert this, which again is a personal attack, please stop. The only thing the posts above show is a real effort to get us to abide by Misplaced Pages policies, i.e., WP:NPOV, WP:V, WP:R. I have not touched the article save for once since filing the MFD (and this was filed only because you refused to discuss and chose to go down the same attack strategy as you did under your other user names); and, the only thing I did was make the changes suggested by 4d-Don about the correct translation. Please understand, I have no vested interest if court cases come out in the public domain, as you say. What I object to is that they are primary documents, as administrators have noted (e.g., ), and that your labeling of them was inaccurate and POV, which is why we need secondary sources that review the documents (otherwise it is OR because it is the selective choosing of testimony to support a POV).

Now, having said all this, I was pleasantly surprised to see your recent post on the talk page where you ask which source is not up to WP standards, so I'll take this there in the hope that we can discuss things intelligently and from a NPOV. Renee (talk)

Let me copy paste the statement made by the admin you approached to get me blocked, link i have already given, but since I have experience that you always try and manipulate user's on wikipedia, as you have attempted here, as such i am forced to demonstrate your contradiction, on this page itself, first your statement:-

• None of what you post above reflects a COI of any sorts and no admin has ever confirmed such a thing.

And now what other admin whom you approached to get me blocked had stated.

• I am starting to realize this matter isn't just about personal attacks anymore but some conflicts of interest on both sides. Just to let you know, I'm going to leave a message on Reneeholle's talk page so she is aware of what I have stated here.

I know you will never accept your COI regarding this subject, but unfortunately you have not been able to maintain the wikipedia standard regarding this subject, this is evident from the fact that you nominated the page for speedy deletion immediately after it was rejected for the same . Even after two successive refusal from community you nominated the page for MfD , This by no means indicates your good faith attempt for building the article, but only show's your COI. Kindly allow me to work on this, You cannot prevent anyone from writing an article you don't like, just that the article should be as per wikipedia standard, and it will be confirmed by the community, not by YOU. The process for taking community feedback is by filing for RfC about the article, and not opinion of user's who are directly involved with the subject. My experience with you is, it is close to impossible to work with you given your extremely inflexible view point, and your personal interpretation of court order's.. As such it will be in benefit of article and wikipedia in general if you stay out of this article, as you COI is evident. --talk-to-me! (talk) 17:39, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Note view of two more user's about Sethie and your disruptive edits and . And also note even after my request to follow neutral admins advice , Sethie has added tags to the PRAPOSED article, in my user-space , this article is still not over, and any attempt that I am making in writing the article is simply reverted by Sethie. This behavior is astonishing !! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cult free world (talk • contribs) 18:18, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Please note the MFD was filed on advice from this ANI board here. Thanks. Renee (talk) 18:31, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Yet another revert by Sethie citing no reason at all. This is pure vandalism, any speedy help will be highly appreciated. --talk-to-me! (talk) 19:25, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Cult Free World/talk-to-me, if I had to bet I would bet that it's because you continue to post material declared libelous by two courts of law. And, you continue to post previously deleted content with no new secondary sources (which, btw, is the reason for the MFD and the speedily delete tags, see this, not some wish to stop information as you allege). An article is more than welcome under Misplaced Pages's guidelines which are WP:RS, WP:V, and WP:NPOV. With only primary sources there is a lot of OR, which is why this content was deleted previously.

The Misplaced Pages model is consensus, otherwise, this page just becomes a mirror of your and 4d-don's blogs, violating WP:NOT. So, why don't you provide a reliable secondary source and we can build it together from there. I've searched my university website and cannot find any otherwise I would provide the first. Renee (talk) 19:42, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Renee, your imaginary incarnation will not conceal your COI, noted by more then one admin. It is wikipedia only which has a policy for COI, kindly refer to the link provided above by the neutral observer. --talk-to-me! (talk) 20:15, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

"Cabal" policy discussion

Hi. This is a cross-posted courtesy notice to ask for opinions regarding User:Master of Puppets/Cabal policy. This is in response to WP:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Great Cabal Debate and the discussion at WP:Requests for comment/Cabals. Your input would be appreciated to come to a consensus in a reasonably efficient manner. Thank you. Keilana| 06:08, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

• The Cabal (TINC) does not wish there to be any policy on cabals. That is all. Guy (Help!) 20:29, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Having difficulty with User:Helixweb

Order of affairs:

• User:Iamwisesun adds a category
• I revert that change.
• I make another content edit: remove a piping that misrepresents the source. Perfectly ordinary content edits so far.
• Here's where User:Helixweb comes along: and reverts me, calling my edits vandalism when they are clearly anything but.
• I post a note on User talk:Helixweb reminding them of WP:AFG and neutrality. In a terse tone, I admit. But you can read for yourself what I wrote.
• User:Helixweb:
  • removes the note
  • Posts a rude accusation and another
  • reverts my content edit seemingly without even reading it.
• I:
  • revert the change, adding a fact tag
  • fix up some references on the page concerned
  • remove the rude messages since User:Helixweb is clearly not in a mood to discuss.
• User:Helixweb:
  • wholesale reverts, this time clearly without reading my edits.
  • and here's the bit that pissed me off, restores the rude messages which I had removed from my own talk page.

It's not the first time I've run into editors like this on this page (Gedhun Choekyi Nyima) - and I've hardly ever run into anything like this in other pages. I don't know whether this page is jinxed or whether there's a band of "like-minded" editors watching it. In any case, User:Helixweb is clearly not going to let me edit this article, even edits fixing up errors in the footnotes! - and is not even going to let me control my own talk page. Please can someone do something about it. Regards, --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 08:53, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Have notified User:Helixweb: . --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 08:57, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Update: User:Helixweb is now Wikistalking me across my contribution history:

• On Edamame (yes, the soy beans)
• On Olympic Dream for Darfur
• On Two Chinas (reverting edits that have stood for weeks)

This is getting ridiculous. Can someone please do something about it! --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:01, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I've offered informal mediation between these editors and asked User:Helixweb for some clarification on the cited reverts. Maybe if you both take a cool down break this won't have to escalate.--Torchwood Who? (talk) 09:10, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

As of this instant User:PalaceGuard008 has agreed to take a cool down period and I have relayed that information to User:Helixweb with the suggestion that he avoids PalaceGuard for a while. I noted that if he believes PalaceGuard to be a vandal there are several other editors on recent changes patrol that can revert disruptive edits. I have not heard back from Helix, but he has not made an edit since I posted to his talk page, so I am assuming he too has taken some time to cool off.--Torchwood Who? (talk) 09:32, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

A cooldown is of course a good idea. However, my sense is that Helixweb could also benefit from some mentoring, as he is rather new and gets carried away with the vandal-fighting spirit. Quick on the revert button and tends to escalate confrontation. This is based on my experience as collateral damage of one of his conflicts. He is clearly a well-intentioned user, however. Jpmonroe (talk) 07:59, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

User:Thamarih Personal Attacks Continued

If this were the first event I'd be on wikiquette alerts, but there are several warnings in-place already. User:Thamarih has engaged in an long-standing series of personal attacks, sockpuppetry accusations, incivil conduct, and ad hominem reasoning in every article he's edited. This diff contains personal attacks of sockpuppetry and personal attacks. I can confirm personally that his accusations of of-campus collusion on article content are unfounded. He has no way of knowing such a thing in the first place, so the accusation is particularly vile. MARussellPESE (talk) 12:56, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Without looking at the specifics of the comment I reviewed Thamarih's contributions and note that they have previously been warned and blocked for making comments regarding yourself. As such I issued an level4 npa warning. If they transgress the npa policy again with particular regard to you, and sectarian commentary generally, I would support a block in excess of a week - and a rapid escalation of tariffs for repeat npa violations. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:10, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

User:Firefly322

This user is getting much problematic including uninformed WP:POINT prodding of articles and personal attacks against other editors.

• His vote in Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Islamophilia (third nomination). The article was original synthesis and he voted "strong keep" in the article. While due the problems with the article, I voted "Strong Delete".

In response, he proded the article Corruption in India which I created without informing the primary contributor . NPOV disputes should be solved by editing, not by deletion. This was a WP:POINT prod by this user.

• Regarding Islamophilia, if administrators read my contribution to the deleted article on Islamophilia and the reference that I used, any scholarly assessement will conclude that my analysis of the material and my contribution were objective. My subsequent vote of Strong Keep were completely in line with the discovery of such material. --Firefly322 (talk) 14:07, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

• As for proding Corruption in India, I can honestly say that it had nothing to do with Otolemur crassicaudatus's vote in Islamophilia. The events were far apart in time.

• Personal attacks against User:Pedro.
  • Both having concerns with adminstator activities and voicing them does shift the focus from topic, making things possibly and unfortunately personal. But such a shift, with reason, does not constitute an attack. Yet writing here "Personal attacks against Perdo" is an unspecified, general claim of a personal attack. To quote policy (WP:NPA): Accusing someone without justification of making personal attacks is also considered a form of personal attack. --Firefly322 (talk) 14:32, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Now there is a discussion about the article Jonathan Wheeldon in Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Jonathan Wheeldon. WP:ATHLETE says athelets will be notable if "Competitors and coaches who have competed at the highest level in amateur sports (who meet the general criteria of secondary sources published about them)". Which is not the case of Jonathan Wheeldon. While hovering AfDs, I voted delete in the article for failing WP:ATHLETE. In response he made this comment .

• In Otolemur crassicaudatus and Jwire hovering my activies, they voted in a way that strongly seemed to be making a point. If there was a disruption (and I'm not claiming there neccessarily was), it wasn't in the message (i.e., don't shoot the messanger). Ideally, it would be better if such things didn't happen on wikipedia. --Firefly322 (talk) 14:59, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Can anyone look into the matter. Thanks. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 13:55, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Also see this pointy vote at an AfD I started, after I deprodded Corruption in India (IP edit, he logged in and fixed the signature in the next edit). Jfire (talk) 15:39, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

• • (IP edit, he logged in and fixed the signature in the next edit) And correcting my log-in error is a problem? How so? Seems like good etiquette, fixing my mistakes. Jfire is pointing out something good. --Firefly322 (talk) 15:10, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

• Fixing the signature is perfectly fine, I was merely pointing that out as it might not have been clear that the initial edit that I linked to was done by you. The problem is the appearance of a vote that seems to be tit-for-tat retaliation, backed by an argument that both misunderstands policy and accuses another editor (me) of being out of line with respect to said policy. That sort of thing, combined with the things that Otolemur notes above, is what brings up the concern that your recent edits have been somewhat WP:POINTy. Jfire (talk) 20:05, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I have notified the editor of both this complaint and the concerns raised here on their talkpage. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:24, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Note there is some commentary on my talk page at User_talk:Pedro#User:Firefly322 that may be relevant. Pedro :  Chat  21:28, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

• Again, as an administator, I would think that User:Pedro would not hover in on AfD's that I'm involved with (as Pedro has just done on Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Dennis Fairclough ). It gives the appearance of point making by an administator, which is especially troublesome to newcomers WP:BITE. This has been one of the things at the heart of my grievances with User:Pedro). Ideally, point making and the appearance of authority of one editor over another editor would not happen on wikipedia. --Firefly322 (talk) 15:49, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

* Regarding Islamophilia, if administrators read my contribution to the deleted article on Islamophilia and the reference that I used, any scholarly assessement will conclude that my analysis of the material and my contribution were objective. {emphasis mine}

Wouldn;t the phrase "My analysis" indicate insertion of an opinion ? F.U.R hurts Misplaced Pages 16:11, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

According to wikipedia guidelines, each and every contribution made to an article on wikipedia is the analysis of some reference. Oftentimes the inclusion of the reference is overlooked when the analysis seems common sense or common knowledge. Every contribution someone makes to wikipedia is my or your or his or her analysis. --Firefly322 (talk) 16:49, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I would think that User:Pedro would not hover in on AfD's that I'm involved with - Apparently you're not familiar with the idea of quality control. And as you're not a newcomer, how, exactly, does WP:BITE affect you in the slightest? --Calton | Talk 16:57, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Stalking

I am tired of user:SWik78 stalking. He has been warned about that on 2 April but he has not stoped. On 16 March I have recieved WP:ARBMAC decision with which my reverts has been limited to 1 time in 48 hours.

• On 18 March user:SWik78 has given me warning about my reverting .It is important to notice that he has never earlier edited that article.
• On 31 March I have made editorial change in article SAO Western Slavonia. My changes has been deleted less of 24 hours latter by user:SWik78 to clearly POV version of article . It is important to notice that this user has never earlier edited this article.
• On 1 April he has warned me about my changes in article Croatia Records after which he has recieved my stalking warning because he has never earlier edited this article
• On 6 April I have deleted parts of article Creation of Yugoslavia . My deleting has started small editorial war between user:PaxEquilibrium (which has sneaked this part of article in February) and user:Hobartimus . Few hours latter user:SWik78 has reverted user:Hobartimus . It is important to notice that user:SWik78 has never earlier edited this article !!

In my thinking because of this stalking evidence user:SWik78 need to recieve small award--Rjecina (talk) 15:24, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Similar to my situation user:SWik78 is stalking user:GriffinSB ( he has never earlier edited this articles) which is clear evidence of his stalking policy--Rjecina (talk) 15:43, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry but the evidence above shows him checking your contributions rather than stalking. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 17:15, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. If the user is undoing edits made by the above editor at multiple locations where they do not regularly/ordinarily edit in order to be disruptive, then it is clearly a form of harassment. Wisdom89 _{(T / )} 19:31, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I am wary of any one editor who makes a conscious attempt to review the edits of another contributor who has a revert restriction, and then edit in a manner to which any response will be a violation of that restriction. That the original editor has a editing restriction may be indicative of a past poor record, but such a restriction was not intended as a means by which another editor may attempt to provoke a reaction. Per Wisdom89 I feel that there is likely an intent to harass. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:33, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

About my ban or "poor record" I will show administrator words .There is no need to say that I am angry about that. --Rjecina (talk) 06:14, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

If he is NPOV user (or similar to that) I will not have problem with his stalking because I am stalked by more of 5 users from Balkan region but his Misplaced Pages:Tendentious editing (both article edits has without any question been POV) and warnings are !

I think that his tendentious edit is clear. In article SAO Western Slavonia he has deleted my edits which speaks about Croatian and Serbian warcrimes so that only Serbian warcrimes are deleted .

In article Creation of Yugoslavia he has added section Vojvodina. Problem is that users outside ex Yugoslavia and Austro-Hungary do not know that this is nothing else but Serbian name of Banat, Bačka and Baranja so that now article is having 2 section which speak about 1 province my statement is possible to confirm in article Banat, Bačka and Baranja--Rjecina (talk) 07:37, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I must agree with Wisdom89 and LessHeard vanU that the evidence shows propable harassment here done by user:SWik78. He should be notified of this thread and given a chance to explain his actions. Hobartimus (talk) 13:50, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Hello everyone!

I'm not quite sure where to begin so let me just say that I in no way, shape or form intend to harass or cause distress to Rjecina (talk · contribs) or anyone else who is working on this project out of good faith. I believe the evidence here has been misrepresented in order to label me as the bad guy even though I don't believe there is a bad guy in any of this. I believe Rjecina takes criticism of his edits a little too personally and sees these criticisms as personal attacks when in fact they're nothing of the sort. I would like to make a few points here so as to explain myself. I will do my best to only defend myself and refrain from accusing others of misdoings so please let me know if I stray from that path.

1. The first thing I would like to do is provide links to my contributions and to a Wannabe Kate summary of my edits. I assure you that these are not listed to brag of any imagined accomplishments in editing (honestly, I haven't accomplished all that much) but they are listed to display the diversity of my edits. I have never concentrated on one single topic, article or editor, rather I spread my contributions to as many different aspects of Misplaced Pages that my (to this point fairly limited) knowledge allows me to. Most of my efforts have been concentrated on fighting vandalism but I regulary patrol new pages, request speedy deletion of articles, participate in WP:AFD and, not as often as I should, participate in WP:RFA discussions. My user page also lists some of the articles I've created. Again, I'm not looking for any kind of recognition for my work but I only intend to prove the intent of my diversity on Misplaced Pages. The articles I've created range in variety from a Croatian actress (Zrinka Cvitešić‎), to a Finnish actor (Markku Peltola), to a pshychological cognitive bias (Subjective validation), to a Canadian film producer (Norman Cohn (film producer)), to a mountain in Croatia (Petrova Gora), to a Dutch musician (Marijne van der Vlugt), to a Finnish film (Drifting Clouds (film)), to an American musician (Carl Broemel), to a low budget American film (The Celestine Prophecy (film)‎). Once I am done responding to these accusations, I will cease my edits for a short period of time so that the above provided 2 links can be used by the community to reviewe and scrutinize my edits for any alleged Misplaced Pages:Tendentious editing or bias.
2. Although it may seem logically or chronologically out of order, the next item I'd like to discuss is my involvement in the Croatia Records article. As Rjecina noted above, I have never edited this particular article. It is a misrepresentation to stop there and say nothing of the fact that as a member of Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Former Yugoslavia, I have edited and watchlisted many ex-Yugo music related articles (Toše Proeski‎, Đorđe Balašević‎, Novi fosili‎, Srebrna Krila‎, Doris Dragović‎, Bajaga‎, Prljavo kazalište‎, Thompson (band)‎, Marko Perković‎, Vesna Zmijanac‎, Miroslav Ilić‎, Tanja Savić‎, Bježi kišo s prozora‎, Tamo gdje ljubav počinje‎, Oliver Dragojević‎, Zdenko Runjić‎, Tereza Kesovija‎, Diskoton‎, Jugoton‎, PGP-RTB‎ and others). Recently, there was a content dispute started between Rjecina and 64.46.2.216 (talk · contribs) on the Croatia Records article. During their dispute, Rjecina did in fact delete a disputed section in this edit. I didn't revert the edit because I lacked the knowledge of the subject but I did post this warning on his page because in his edit summary he accused the IP editor of vandalism when it clearly was nothing more than a content dispute. In his accusation of me stalking him, he failed to advise this notice board of the fact that I left a similar warning for the above named IP editor for the same exact thing because he made this revert and in his edit summary called Rjecina a vandal (rvv = reverting vandalism according to Misplaced Pages:Edit_summary_legend#Revert to a previous edit). Furthermore, I believe it speaks of my neutrality to say that the IP editor left this message on my talk page after the warning I left for him and spoke some more of his reasoning to label Rjecina a vandal. I, then, posted a response to him in which I strongly defended the same editor I'm being accused of stalking (my exact words were Rjecina's edits are not made in bad faith, therefore, you are incorrect in calling him a vandal). Therefore, the situation is being misrepresented because warnings were left for both sides involved in the dispute and both sides were given a link to WP:VAND#NOT to familiarize themselves with what vandalism is not.
3. This edit I made on SAO Western Slavonia that Rjecina refers to twice in the above summary of events and which he calls clearly POV was a revert of this edit of his so I only reverted to a version previous to his which I don't believe to be POV. I will do my best not to bring content disputes to this noticeboard but I just want to say that I reverted his edit because I generally find it unneccessary to keep listing Serb war crimes and Croatian war crimes out of context and simply for the reason of it being there. I felt, in utmost good faith, that the sentence he inserted was out of context in this article and did nothing to further explain Serbian population's reasons to separate. I believed it to be a sort of WP:COATRACKing.
4. Another edit that he refers to twice is my reverting of this deletion of his. The section that he deleted was quite large, well written and well sourced. At the time of his deletion, there was no discussion on the article's talk page about this section and the edit summary he left included the question Can somebody please explain what is having "Serbian" Vojvodina with Creation of Yugoslavia?. I believe that this question he asks might be a valid question but, instead of being asked on the talk page to reach a consensus, the question was asked after the paragraph was deleted and, therefore, it served no purpose. When I placed the section back, I also attempted to neutralize it by removing the word Serbian from the heading hoping to ease the tensions somewhat. Please note that I did not add the section to duplicate another existing section as is claimed above. The section has been there for some time and I had nothing to do with its creation, I only have an issue with large chunks of well written and well sourced text being deleted without consensus or even a proper explanation. I would revert the same edit from any other editor, including an administrator, if I felt that the removal was unjustified. Also, note that PaxEquilibrium (talk · contribs) has also replaced that section in the article believing it to be valid. Both PaxEquilibrium and myslef only replaced the deleted text so I would challenge the statement made in Rjecina's above summary that my edits have without any question been POV.

I'd only like to say 2 things in conclusion:

1. Contrary to what I'm being accused of in the POV department, I also revert POV edits from Serbian editors as can be seen here, and here. I also suggested here that an article defended by Serb editors and not liked by the Croatian editors (Petar Brzica) be nominated for deletion where I would vote to have it deleted. My motivations are not political, they are Wikipedical.
2. I earlier stated that I would refrain from accusing others of misdoings. If my following statements make me break my own promise, I do apologize but I deem it necessary information. Immediately after the warning I left for Rjecina in which I informed him of incorrectly labelling others as vandals, he posted these messages (, , ) on other editors' pages in which he accused me of WP:STALKING. First of all, the definition of stalking states that it is editing the same articles as the target, with the intent of causing annoyance or distress. As per the evidence I provided earlier about my contributions and edit summary, I edit a very small portion of the articles that Rjecina edits and they in turn constitute a small portion of thousands of other articles I have edited. I promise all of you that my intent is not to cause annoyance or distress even though this seems to be that case due to Rjecina taking this to heart. I explained that to him when he first accused me of stalking and tried to explain that I'm commenting on his edits, not him as an editor. However, I question the sincerity of the intent of his accusations due to something he mentioned several times. I believe that he wants to see me punished more so than he wants me to leave him alone. In this and this edit he speaks of an administrator tool given to me by administrator Future Perfect at Sunrise (talk · contribs) and he is referring to the WP:Rollback feature. I must say that explicitly asking Fut. Perf. to remove this from my control (Maybe it will be OK for you to delete his administrator tool) seems punitive rather than preventative because I have never, ever misused this tool against Rjecina nor enyone else and I have fully abided by the rules governing the use of this feature. Indeed, if I was not denied permission to keep using rollback in my daily vandal fighting, it would in no way affect Rjecina negatively (or positively) in any way what so ever. I believe I use the tool well for what it was intended and I appreciate being given the opportunity to prove myself responsible with it.

So I will end it here. I thank you for your time and ask that you please accept my sincere apologies if I overstepped my boundries by by taking up too much of your time to read such a long diatribe but I felt the details necessary. As stated before, I will cease my editing for the rest of this day so that my edits can be reviewed for any alleged pattern or bias. I do welcome further questions from any administrators either here or on my talk page.

Thank you again!
Sincerely, SWik78 (talk) 16:17, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

User:MacedonianBoy

Personal attack, impoliteness and incivility by User:MacedonianBoy here. The Cat and the Owl (talk) 16:21, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

He is continuing: . The Cat and the Owl (talk) 16:52, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Wow :| The user being discussed called someone "stupid animal" - rather full on. Orderinchaos 16:55, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

My thoughts exactly ... blocked for 24 hours. Blueboy96 17:03, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Good call, obviously. Note that this outburst was triggered by 3rdAlcove's complaining about what he saw as irridentist political propaganda on MacedonianBoy's user page, a topic that was only today independently brought up on my page too, (here. The issue of just how much Macedonia-related political ranting is acceptable on user pages has come up repeatedly. Comments welcome. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:23, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I also directed him to the Serbian-language version of "no personal attacks" - have contacted a Macedonian admin to see if a translation is available in that language. Orderinchaos 17:25, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

So? Does that excuse him, Future? My comment was in response to -his- calling editors 'propagandists', I couldn't care less about what he puts on his user page (which I first noticed about a week ago or so, actually; notice that I didn't complain about it). Add to that his calling me a "subsaharian(sic) asshole" and older comments about "subsaharan Greeks" and "tatar Bulgarians". Since he has contributed a few articles (peppered with some ethnic Macedonian POV-pushing here and there, of course), I propose that no action be taken at the moment against him -if any would be taken, that is-. Next time he should be banned for as long as it takes him to cool down, though.

Edit: I just noticed the 24-hour ban. Ah well, it's not that long, anyway.

Edit 2: Sorry if I misinterpreted you btw, FPaS. 3rdAlcove (talk) 17:56, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

No problem. I wasn't criticizing you and I wasn't excusing him. Just wanted to see if there's some more opinions about that wider issue. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:23, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

"I am ready to sacrifice my self for the truth and the facts. I do not care about your opinion at all." - nice consensus-building style there :/ I am done there - I think the 24 hour block is appropriate and if future problems arise they can be dealt with in future. Orderinchaos 18:52, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't have a dog in this fight, but i must say that User:MacedonianBoy seems quite rude indeed. EraserGirl (talk) 16:25, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

In other words, that mean I am the only one so called rude one. I do not believe it. --MacedonianBoy (talk) 18:04, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Please tone it down. You are skating on thin ice as far WP:ARBMAC is concerned. Moreschi (talk) 18:46, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, but I do not want to be bad guy here, that is all. regards.--MacedonianBoy (talk) 19:47, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

User:CarlosRodriguez

This user continues to make horribly POV edits to Jeremiah Wright after being warned numerous times about his actions. He was reported to AIV previously, but the admin declined because he wasn't really vandalising. But the admin did say to come here if the disruptive behavior continued - it did. Here is the warnings I gave to him on his talk page, with diffs as well:

This is the last warning you will receive for your disruptive edits.
The next time you violate Misplaced Pages's neutral point of view policy by inserting commentary or your personal analysis into an article, you will be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages. Grsz11 04:03, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

yet more bullying with no specifics from a passionate edit warrior

, , . You know quite well what I'm talking about. Grsz11 04:21, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I have commented the WP:AIV report, declining to block now on the grounds that it is - even though obvious policy nonconform - not persitent vandalism or spamming. However, if this behaviour continues, I will block you. Poeloq (talk) 17:08, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I believe we can work towards a consensus on the talk page to include some of your material . Please join us there to discuss your proposed changes.--Die4Dixie (talk) 13:51, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

More violations: , , , .

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. Grsz11 17:28, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

You can check the page history for additional disruptive behavior. He refuses to acknowledge the significance of NPOV, consensus and original research, and takes it out through edit warring. Thanks, Grsz11 17:33, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

The edit warring behavior looks troubling to me and that history page has been consumed with reverts as a result of it.--Jersey Devil (talk) 18:29, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm worried about 3RR myself. Luckily, there's several other users there, and we've been pretty evenly undoing. Grsz11 18:34, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm actually concerned about the way the warnings read, and if they may have contributed to the problem rather than having helped. I think that working in tandem with others to avoid a 3RR block is gaming the system.--Die4Dixie (talk) 18:57, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Um, no, when everybody else realizes what he's doing is wrong. It isn't working "with others to avoid a 3RR block," it's keep the article safe from a user who wants to push his POV all over the place. Grsz11 19:01, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

CarlosRodriguez has a history of disruptive editing, as his own talk page attests and the talk pages on other articles, such as Blackface, confirm. Adding Black Hitler and other stuff CarlosRodriguez has attempted to the Jeremiah Wright article really is inappropriate. TheslB (talk) 19:24, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely. A quick history check of your own talk pages will reveal that you have both also been administratively warned for your edit warring on that page, and one of you has recently brought two unfounded complaints to this board in the recent past.Carlos is out of line, but some black pots are here too. Enough blame to go around for the three of you on that page--Die4Dixie (talk) 19:34, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Please stop wasting space. This isn't about your ridiculous accusations against other users. Grsz11 19:45, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Also note, the warnings came about as a result of undoing this guys edits. Grsz11 19:46, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

No sir, from also undoing mine without talk page consensus and generally running roughshod over WP policies and your undoing ever editor with whom you disagree no matter what page you find yourself on. You are right about Carlos, but your tag team hit jobs on editors are noteworthy on any complaint that you make.--Die4Dixie (talk) 19:54, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

"You are right about Carlos" — then please do not make this about me and you. TheslB (talk) 20:30, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Sad that it came to this, Grsz11. Grsz11 has broken 3RR with 5-6 reverts per day. A quick look at the history page will show this: CarlosRodriguez (talk) 18:19, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

If they looked they can see you greatly exaggerate. Over the past 24 hours, I've undid you twice, and Fovean twice. ThesIB has also had to undo your edits. There's a difference between edit warring out content, and reverting vandalism, which is essentially what your edits have become. Grsz11 19:56, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Please link to one vandalistic edit that I have made on my talk page to sustantiate you claim. The warnings that you blank on your page attest to who the real vandal is.--Die4Dixie (talk) 20:01, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about Carlos. PLEASE stop wasting everybodies space and time with your rants against me. Grsz11 20:03, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Grsz, you have broken 3rr shamelessly and reverted most everyone's edits that don't adhere to your POV. I didn't want it to become an administrative matter, but now you've brought it here CarlosRodriguez (talk) 20:20, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Again, you've been warned several times about your POV edits by myself, and others. The diffs above clearly show that you are trying to push your opinion across on the article as fact. There's a difference between my reverting edits that I don't like, and reverting edits that have been discussed and warned against. Grsz11 20:31, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

• And you do do both.--Die4Dixie (talk) 20:40, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

All three of you, stop it now. AN/I is not the place for arguing. Wait patiently for an admin to have time to review the situation and decide if any action is necessary (unfortunately, I don't have time right now). If you really want to argue with each other, do so on your talk pages, but any incivility from any of you and you'll be blocked, regardless of the merit of your arguments. Consider this an official warning. --Tango (talk) 21:10, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Tango. For the reviewing admin: please note a totally uninvolved editor reverted CarlosRodriguez' similar edits yesterday and reported them as vandalism here. This led to an ANI AIV admin warning CarlosRodriguez that if the behavior continued, a block would be forthcoming. TheslB (talk) 21:59, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Not being "Dense", but to which three editors do you refer, as four had weighed in in addition to a SYSOP?--Die4Dixie (talk) 22:10, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Please see Tango's statement above. I am not going to get into an argument with you here. TheslB (talk) 22:46, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Being able to count is not a prerequisite for being an admin. ;) --Tango (talk) 00:13, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I most respectfully deny that I asked you to. If you have anything resembling an argument, please post to your talk page which i have now added to my watchlist and I will respond there.Cordially,--Die4Dixie (talk) 01:29, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

•  Done User blocked for 24hrs for disruption and edit warring. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:33, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Edit warring by blocked User:Fredrick day

User:Fredrick day is blocked for vandalism and severe incivility. Coming in through identifiable IP, see Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Fredrick day and Talk for that SSP page, he is edit warring with removal of his edits. See Special:Contributions/87.113.2.240.

He is attempting to call attention to my behavior through this, but what I've been doing with another blocked user would likewise be legitimate with him. Another user is blocked for various reasons, but has a history of good contributions. He is being reverted practically automatically when his IP edits are found, which is legitimate. Then, any other user who sees these edits and who wishes to take responsibility for them, may bring them back in. This is not meat puppetry, it is reviewing the edit history of a page and deciding to bring back in removed material based on the content, not on the identity of the editor.

I have reverted Fd's edits, without regard for content (as is being done in the case he refers to.) Any legitimate editor may see these edits and bring them back in, I have utterly no objection to that. I happen to see Fd's edits because he edits pages I watch; then I check his contributions and am reverting on sight. Sometimes I note this in Talk to specifically call attention to the edit so that other editors may review it.--Abd (talk) 17:49, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

• I hope someone blocks his IP soon. How strange that someone who appeared to be a legitimate contributor degenerated so quickly into vandalism and trolling. It seems like what you're doing is perfectly OK. I am reviewing his contribs now to see if anything should be kept. -- Naerii 17:51, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
• He's back Special:Contributions/87.113.42.143. -- Naerii 17:59, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I rolled back all but one edit from the first IP that wasn't rolled back already--the only one I didn't touch was when he reverted an obvious BLP violation. In my view, about the ONLY circumstances under which block-evading socks can't have their edits reverted on sight is when there are obvious BLP or copyright violations. Can we consider him banned and be done with it? Blueboy96 18:00, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah I see no reason why their edits shouldn't be reverted on sight, but then again there's no point keeping incorrect content so there's nothing wrong with going through later and restoring any edits that are worth keeping. I seem to recall this being done in past cases? If it's against policy never mind I guess. I just feel a bit icky about restoring incorrect information and leaving it indefinitely until someone unrelated notices. -- Naerii 18:02, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

That's perfectly fine--as long as the edits aren't in any way associated with a block-evading or banned user, you can restore them manually. Blueboy96 18:06, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Great. Thanks for blocking. -- Naerii 18:08, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) Thanks. What I'm doing is a solution to a problem that arose when User:Larry E. Jordan was blocked, but was also known for some very good contributions -- not perfect, but good seeds for articles -- in parliamentary procedure. He continued to try to make good contributions, but they were being reverted due to block evasion. Which is, of course, legitimate. After discussing this with the administrator doing most of the reversions, I came up with a solution, announced my intention to do it, waited, then started doing it. I looked for these reverted edits, reviewed them, and if they seemed solid -- I checked sources where possible, or flagged the edit if it seemed good but couldn't be immediately verified -- I brought them back in. I also listed what I was doing on the project page involved, and invited other editors to do the same, and one did, cleaning up everything I'd found. Fredrick day may be making some good contributions. So any other editor may review those edits and bring them back, if the editor is willing to take responsibility for them. I'd be careful though. This guy is positively venomous. But I'm not going to get into that. Any legitimate editor brings back his edits, I'm no longer involved in that content. (Unless it is blatant sock puppetry, another story.)

By the way, I'm pretty sure he planted that BLP violation removal, attempting to trap me with it. "See! He's removing necessary edits!"--Abd (talk) 18:09, 6 April 2008 (UTC) As I have time, I'm listing the IPs involved on Talk for his SSP page. Note that his IP editing predated his block, he was "good hand" Fredrick day, though I didn't think him so good, and very, very "bad hand" Section 31. He was nailed when he forgot he was logged in once, and linked Section 31 with his registered account, though KMweber had already pretty much pinned him.--Abd (talk) 18:09, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

He's back again, and leaving irritating posts . Someone please block Special:Contributions/87.115.12.23, though he'll be back on another IP shortly I expect. -- Naerii 19:32, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps not a popular opinion, but...

I hesitate to point this out, because I do understand the aggravation that this banned user is causing. However, each of us has to bear in mind that we are personally responsible and liable for any edit we make. If we insert information that violates WP:BLP - for example, negative unsourced information about a person - we are responsible for doing so. It does not matter if one is reverting someone else's removal of that information, or one is inserting the negative unsourced information of one's own volition. The Wikimedia Foundation makes it pretty clear that we are on our own with respect to any edits we make to any article. The Foundation has provided user-specific information in at least one previous lawsuit without notifying the involved users, back in December 2007 IIRC. If you do not want to be personally liable for inserting negative unsourced information into an article about a living person, then don't do it, even by reverting a banned user. Our readers don't care who makes the edits, they only care that the information they read is correct. I'm sure the subjects of our articles feel the same way. Risker (talk) 00:02, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Libellous material and self-evident BLP violations should never be reinserted in an article, regardless of any other policy or procedure that might otherwise apply. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:05, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

No policy states it should be, even WP:BAN states "When reverting edits, care should be taken not to reinstate material that may be in violation of core policies such as Neutrality, Verifiability, and Biographies of Living Persons". That's been thrown out of the window tonight though, with unsourced claims that a living person infected multiple people with the HIV virus being added back to articles, amongst other things. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 00:06, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Someone wants to "smash my face"

Now I know people often treat each other like dirt on Misplaced Pages, but this one's gone too far. I've had the beginning of a revert war — something I don't much like, and usually wind up abandoning (I mean who cares what silliness people want to do?) with some shifting anonymous, over something pretty minor, and in fact in this case it's actually reasonable on both sides, or should be; and I may have started the ball rolling by saying that their edits might be vandalism. I was maybe not as civil as it could have been, but no harsh words, ad hominem remarks or calling people liars or anything of that kind.

But apparently this anonymous user wants to "smash my face"; topping off a barrage of excessively violent reaction.

Now I intensely dislike hostility, so I'm outta here for a few weeks; but someone should keep an eye on this person, probably.

I used to be a hard-working editor at Misplaced Pages, as can be seen from my edit history (I'm also on Misplaced Pages's white list) but I've got less and less involved: and this is one of the reasons why. Bill (talk) 18:30, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Have you considered reporting it per WP:TOV. Bstone (talk) 18:33, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I blocked for 24, there's no excuse for that. RxS (talk) 18:44, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Is WP:TOV beneficial/usable while it's still being constructed? User was right to bring it here though. Wisdom89 _{(T / )} 19:27, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I think this was the place to bring this up, with or without WP:TOV. Gwen Gale (talk) 19:31, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

WP:TOV says to report it here but also gives you ideas and information as how to go about dealing with the threat, including contacting the police. Bstone (talk) 00:22, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I note that the IP adding the threat is not the IP whose Talk page it is. Just pointing out that this might not be a trivially simple case. Sheffield Steel_stalk 15:52, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

How to deal with constant attempts to get others blocked?

How do everyone suggest dealing with attempts to get other people blocked, including massive incivility? See this and onward on my talk page. There seems to be a mess of arguments between User:Squash Racket, User:Nmate, and User:Hobartimus on one side versus User:Tankred, User:MarkBA, and User:Svetovid on the other. Some also seem to be using the warning templates aggressively probably in a harassing fashion. Now, I've blocked Svetovid earlier for continuous arguing and incivility from Hedvig Malina. Otherwise, I've told everyone to use the warning templates and WP:AIV. Any suggestions beyond removing all the comments my talk page and telling everyone to deal with it themselves? Block people for harassing other users? I've had some edit disputes, I guess, with a few so could an outside admin look at this? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 19:44, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Also, I'm curious if anything should be done about the user who started this nonsense saying that he's complaining about me "as suggested" and "Let's see if we can't get him and his kind kicked out of here." Some meatpuppetry going on? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 19:44, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry no-one else has responded. As far as you are aware, are these editors only edit-warring on the Hedvig Malina article or is that part of a group of articles? I'm inclined to protect the article page for a day and give a stern conduct warning on the talkpage. Will there be many other editors caught by a article protection, from your experience? LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:44, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

The edit-warring at Malina seems to have calmed down, so I don't protection would be that necessary. Another article was been Bratislava Castle which again has calmed down. This seems like part of a larger nationalist argument that I cannot piece together. I'm just wondering if it's worth doing anything beyond wiping my talk page clean and ignoring everyone. How many times is it appropriate for admin to tell others than I am not interested in being their cop before *I* can just block them for bothering the hell out of me? Just need an outside opinion as to how to respond. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:28, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I have not posted anything on Ricky's talk page in the last couple of days and already apologized for the earlier comments there answering another editor's accusations (and suggested deleting the whole part or using a hide/show template).
Some users post reports there that belong on a noticeboard and if it goes unanswered, the administrator will probably think it's completely valid. If I cut and paste those reports to where these belong, I would edit others' comments which is not allowed.
Still I decided to pass on yesterday's new report there though I could have added a few things. Since Ricky asked me recently to use WP:AIV I stay away from his talk page.
What to do when another editor who received the same message reports others directly to Ricky instead of a noticeboard? Squash Racket (talk) 04:24, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

If the edit war has calmed down, I concur that you should wipe (or archive, just in case) the material and replace it with a notice that you do not wish to involve yourself with the matter (with a suggestion of taking it to WP:AIV). Like everyone here, you are a volunteer and you decide how you are going to help the encyclopedia. If you do get the sharp end of a few comments, and you are unable to ignore them, post a level4 warning and take it to AIV if repeated. I hope editing becomes more fun for you. LessHeard vanU (talk) 12:54, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

You already got involved by your unexplained and seemingly biased comments and actions towards me, Ricky. You still haven't explained or apologized for that. Saying that you now don't want to be part of this seems a little strange now.--Svetovid (talk) 21:14, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I warned you about your uncivil comments ("Do have a look at the following articles: Fallacy, List of fallacies and specifically Ignoratio elenchi, Straw man, and Poisoning the well."), you went into a rant about nationalists again, and then I blocked you with an explanation. You had ample time during your block to request an unblock and if another editor thought it appropriate, he could unblock. I am not in the mood to rehash arguments you yourself used as a reason to complain to another user who posted it at WP:AN. You can't have it both ways. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:30, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Also, I have further told you that comments like this ("watch out or you may be blocked for complaining without any explanation from Ricky") are not helpful and rehashing arguments at Hedvig again and again simply to get a fact tag slapped on a page that you obviously wanted deleted from the start is also not helpful. If anyone else has a suggestion, I'm open to it. I'd suggest a block because I frankly have yet to see a lot of anything other than POV pushing from him (check his last edits for reverting back in a number of articles using popups). -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:30, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

User:Angrymansr

This user continues to attack and harass me. His behavior isn't limited to just my talk page, or his. His edit summaries as well have been abusive and rude. He's even gone as far as changing my comments (that are on his talk page) to make me look stupid. RobJ1981 (talk) 20:02, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest going to Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette alerts first. You'll probably get a quicker response there. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 20:15, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Are you in the right place? To report impolite, incivil, or difficult communications with other editors, see wikiquette alerts. --Pixelface (talk) 22:54, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

What qualifies as editing by proxy?

I'm not sure who the banned user is supposed to be, but an IP editor who is supposedly banned is being reverted for removing material from the Seal (musician) article citing WP:BLP. While I think that their removal is probably more extensive than it needs to be, there does appear to clearly be material that should be sourced if it's going to remain. I'm on my way out for a bit, and I don't have the time to go through and just remove certain parts...but I'd prefer not to just revert back to a banned users version. Does anyone have time to give a couple minutes attention to this article? --Onorem♠Dil 20:33, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

• OTRS volunteers edit by proxy all the time, the key in my view is that (a) the editor identifies and is prepared to stand by the material on their own and (b) the edits should not be furthering the disruptive activity that got whoever it was banned. So, for example, when JB196 was banned for dicking about with wrestling articles, people who dicked about with wrestling articles aided and abetted by JB196 ended up in deep trouble. On the other hand, ColScott is banned from editing, but if he were to email OTRS or an editor he trusts with a necessary fix per WP:BLP then there would be no problem. That's how I interpret it, anyway. Guy (Help!) 20:47, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

It seems pretty clear. Consider an edit by a blocked user as a suggestion from someone. Could be anyone, except that if the user is blocked, you might be extra careful. You can implement that suggestion. Since the edit is in history, it might be pretty simple. But, remember, you are responsible for that edit if you bring it back. Whether or not you do bring it back, you can comment on it in Talk, should you need help. Let a regular editor of the article make the decision.--Abd (talk) 20:57, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that's what I'd say. If you personally think the edit is a good idea, then make the edit. The fact that someone else suggested it doesn't really matter. Proxy editing is usually a problem away from the article space - in the article space, edits stand on their own merits. Elsewhere, who makes them can be significant. --Tango (talk) 21:06, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Have a look at WP:Meatpuppet. If someone has been recruited to open an account only for the purpose of helping someone evade a black/ban, the new account and the blocked account are treated as one and the same. Gwen Gale (talk) 21:13, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Looks like the answers here mostly echoed my interpretation. Thanks for the replies. --Onorem♠Dil 12:47, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Need an admintrator's intervention

The User talk:Udonknome has been deleting content from the article Eros Ramazzotti. He/she first claimed on my talk page that he's the one who has created the article ,therefore, he feels as though he's endowed by the right to delete anything he/she wants from the page. The user replaced the original discography section with something that not only does not serve the purpose the former did but also it is now located in the middle of the article which I cannot revert or correct because an admin. has protected the page due to ongoing disputes between I and the other user.--Harout72 (talk) 21:15, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think he's a vandal just for disagreeing with you, and we don't normally use template warnings for regular users, only for newbies. What you two have is a content dispute; there are good suggestions at WP:DISPUTE for strategies to come to consensus. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 21:29, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I am not saying he's a vandal for disagreeing with me, however, he should be treated like one for removing whole chunk of informative content from pages without discussing them as well as making the pages look as he has done to Eros Ramazzotti with the discography section in the middle of the article as well as replacing the word Forward with Foward, that's not having a difference of an opinion but it's rather destroying the page. --Harout72 (talk) 22:48, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

We only use template warnings for newbies? *cough* You dont think that smacks of elitism and poor reasoning? If you think the templates are bite-y and harsh, they're that way for everyone and no one should get the things. And if new users somehow deserve less consideration, thats just flat out incompatible with our communal norms. Everyone deserves a unique warning if you think they've gone out of line, we aren't less courteous to new users. -M 01:17, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

You may want to read through Misplaced Pages:Don't template the regulars - the reasoning behind it is that template messages are designed to educate users about the relevant policy or guideline, which we can generally assume the experienced editor would already be aware of. That's not to say experienced editors are above being warned: rather, they should be warned with a more personal message that encourages further discussion. Such would also work for newbies as well, it goes both ways; it's just that for them, it's best to give them the link, have them read it, then discuss any questions they may have. It doesn't do much good to discuss things when one party doesn't have a clue what they're talking about. Hersfold 02:09, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Read that page many moons ago :) It's the other way around from what you've said, i've found. The big scary icons and lack of good faith on the templates is much more damaging to newcomers then regulars. A link to a policy and washing your hands of it is likely the wrong approach to take with someone unaware of the labyrinthine network of policy, and the 'ZOMG STOP!' visual nature is likely to chase off what would be productive editors were it not for the bite-y aspects. The wording on most of these templates was extremely soft originally, going by memory on when they become prominent a few years ago, but has gotten harsh enough now that a hand written message is superior in, well, almost all cases. -M

Not disputing that at all - several of the warning templates, the lower-level ones mainly, definitely need some work done. But then that's a discussion for another place and time. :-) Hersfold 03:59, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Persistent, serious personal attacks by User:PetraSchelm

PetraSchelm (talk · contribs) has explicitly or implicitly accused other Wikipedians of paedophilia repeatedly. For example:

• "It looks like the people who were most vocal in getting the articles renamed "sexual attraction to children" from "sexual abuse and pedophilia" were self-identified pro-pedophile. One of them states on his userpage that his "agenda" is pederasty articles, and has claimed that 13 year old boys can consent to sex. Another, Tony Sandel, clearly identifies himself as pro-pedophile on his userpage. I don't get the impression that that they think pedophile is an insult; on the contrary that is how they identify themselves." These statements are false. The userpages in question are User:Tony Sandel and User:Haiduc, and both have made clear elsewhere that they are neither paedophiles nor pro-paedophile.
• "I think you should actually read the lists which were named "Pedophila and Child Sexual Abuse in film/theatre/song/books, and have all been renamed by a small pedophile faction "sexual attraction to children in film/theatre/song/books")
• "The argument for changing the name seems to be that "sexual attraction" subsumes "pedophilia and child sexual abuse." Uh, only from the perspective of pedophiles.")
• Etc.

The issue she is so incensed over is that several lists are named in the format of "x that portrays sexual attraction to children or adolescents," rather than "x that portrays child sexual abuse." As has been discussed on the talk pages of these articles, which Petra has neglected to use, this is so because many of the books, films, or songs do not include child sexual abuse -- the paedophile in Death in Venice, for instance, never acts on his attractions. This is clearly not pro-paedophile reasoning (though personally, I still disagree with it); Petra's attacks are unjustified.

She has continued after being reminded of our civilty policies. --AnotherSolipsist (talk) 22:11, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

It's evident from Petra's contributions that she is either a sockpuppet or at the very least a single purpose account. Within just a few days of registering she's found some of our most esoteric policies, managed to nominate several articles in one of the most contentious regions of Misplaced Pages for deletion, and especially, articles that themselves are the result of a remarkable consensus effort between editors on both sides of the pedophilia equation; while at the same time managing to brand other editors as pedophiles or pro pedophiles, or even tolerant of child abuse. ⇒SWATJester 22:25, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

(ec)I have left a strongly - and hopefully comprehensive - warning at her(?) talkpage below your notice of this section. While not specifically noted, it should be regarded as a final warning should the editor continue making these comments. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:28, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

That seems fair enough, and I have also tried to explain to her why this is so and hopefully this will be the last we hear of it. Thanks, SqueakBox 22:38, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I see you explained to her that calling people pedophiles on flimsy grounds was generally frowned upon, but that it is acceptable to accuse them of promoting a pro-pedophile viewpoint . That's very helpful of you, and certainly contributes to the atmosphere of camaraderie and peaceful discourse that surrounds those articles. May I remind you, though, that people have been blocked for exactly that (purportedly promoting a pro-pedophile viewpoint, that is), and that it might be polite to refrain from such deleterious claims as well? "Thanks," Bikasuishin (talk) 23:04, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I thought SqueakBox did tell her that. Regardless, if it wasn't him, it was someone else because I definitely remember someone having mentioned that. And even so, Less Heard vanU referenced it in their final warning. ⇒SWATJester 23:15, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Yup. LessHeard vanU (talk) 23:19, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I mean in the same way one would accuse another editor of editing in a pro-cannabis way or a pro-US army way, concentrating on the content and slant of the edits but not saying the uiser is stoned or whatever, we all have our POVs but we must not edit wikipedia to promote any POV. Indeed all I have been trying to do is get this particularly online (ie working with us constructively|) and unfortunately I seem to have failed. Thanks, SqueakBox 23:11, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm convinced that you mean well. However, people usually don't get blocked for editing with a pro-US military viewpoint, unless, I guess, when it gets particularly egregious and disruptive. A pro-pedophile bias or any semblance thereof, on the other hand, is something that gets editors indefinitely blocked, so it might be best to exercise proper circumspection before branding a fellow editor with such a label. I'm not sure a remark like "this editor promotes a pro-pedophile viewpoint" really qualifies as "commenting on the contributions rather than the contibutor", even if it is meant that way. Anyway, sorry for this slightly off-topic comment. Bikasuishin (talk) 23:33, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Unfortunately, she's responded by affirming her claim that Haiduc is pro-paedophile. For the record, the statement she interprets as supporting this is: "Agenda: To promote accurate and comprehensive treatment of LGBT history, in particular of pederastic homosexuality, in its sexualized as well as chaste manifestations." --AnotherSolipsist (talk) 22:40, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

This user has been consistently disruptive and unresponsive to discussion or reasoning. I too am of the opinion that he is a sock, and while I could not care less about the personal attacks the fact remains that his constant attempts to introduce a political agenda are inappropriate. As long as this kind of behavior persists unchecked it is corrosive both to the work that we are doing here and to the atmosphere of collegiality and reason that needs to be cultivated. Haiduc (talk) 22:54, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Blocked for 1 week for personal attacks re this edit. See AnotherSolipsist's reference above. I've also warned that since this is a very serious accusation, next block will be significantly longer. Given the suspiciousness of the account, that should not be unreasonable. ⇒SWATJester 23:05, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Her block log is empty. ? --AnotherSolipsist (talk) 23:21, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Likely a bug, she is clearly blocked, see . Thanks, SqueakBox 23:30, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

It is well that this user is blocked, but what happens to his disruptive votes in the many AfDs he has been involved in? Haiduc (talk) 23:43, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I think unless it can be proven she is a sock of a banned user then they should stand as they were made before bing blocked. Thanks, SqueakBox 23:46, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Correct, this is a block, with no allegations of being a banned user, the votes stand. Regardless, even if they were to be removed they'd make no difference in the outcome. ⇒SWATJester 00:26, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

My Own Edits

Hello! I would like to remove the title of "vandal" for this IP: 67.171.175.42 Unfortunately, I was logged off when editing my own page (I'm not sure how), and someone else reverted it and gave the IP a warning. I'm sorry for the trouble - I just wish to take any "black marks" off of my IP. Sorry about the trouble, I'm removing the warning. Thank you! BlackPearl14 00:37, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Rad. Do what thou wilt with your talk page. the_undertow 00:49, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

New wikidrama

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

Apologies extended by dihydrogen monoxide; let's hope for the best. El_C 08:25, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

It started with a dispute between User:Drmiko and User:Compwhizii concerning a cleanup tagging of Vasojevići, with incivilities from both sides. Then user:PhilKnight and user:dihydrogen monoxide tried to moderate the dispute. Finally, they exchanged cookies ( and ). Then user:dihydrogen monoxide posted a blog off-wiki: . It resulted in this. I bring this to your attention since it may have complications. Cenarium 01:23, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Well there is certainly no better way to alleviate drama then to rehash it in a blog. Giggy should be reminded that although NPA isn't policy outside of wikipedia, the spirit should remain in tact. Other than that, I don't know what administrative action can be taken. the_undertow 01:31, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Agree that there is no admin action that can be done here other than reminding DMHO that words can hurt people. Tiptoety 01:35, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think there were personal attacks in the blog post. Also, incidents like this can be talked about more generally, to a wider audience. We could all do well to be more hospitable to newcomers. If people can't or aren't comfortable answering people's questions, then tagging their work as needing improvement may not be the area of wikipedia best suited for that person's skill set. - cohesion 02:41, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree that I could have worded my comments in a less aggressive manner, and for that I apologise. I hope Compwhizii reconsiders his retiring. dihydrogen monoxide (H₂O) 07:21, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

To expand, I have been making a conscious effort, of late, to "self-control", if you will, in giving my opinions on others. In this case, Drmiko obviously took this better then I did - I really wasn't pleased with how he was treated. I can only say that I will try harder in future. I have emailed Compwhizii apologising, and I apologise to anyone else who has been offended or harmed by my comments. Regards, dihydrogen monoxide (H₂O) 08:08, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

As an adult, you need to exercise special restraint when "giving an opinion" about a 13-year old. El_C 08:25, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Reverting on WP:COI

Over the last few days, editors have been discussing the "tension" between WP:COI and the principle that editors should be allowed to edit pseudonymously. One site of discussion has been on WP:COI, in relation to text stating that "Revealing the names of pseudonymous editors is in all cases against basic policy." As was pointed out, this seems to contradict text in the same paragraph recommending that editors approach COIs directly, as well as the general practice on WP:COIN where identity is somewhat regularly discussed as necessary. Discussion of this went on for a couple of days between Crum375 and myself, with some others coming in and generally agreeing that there is a tension here which needs to be acknowledged in one form or another. Crum375 has argued in contrast that there is no tension and that discussion of COI should never involve identifying an editor who does not identify themself. Crum insisted in turn that because WP:Block states that editors may be blocked for revealing identifying information, WP:COI must state that identifying a pseudonymous editor is in all cases against basic policy. Of those discussing on the page, Joshuaz and I directly disagreed with this, while Privatemusings sought a compromise. When it became clear that views on the page were not being further developed, and that editors generally agreed that the change was necessary, I attempted to reinstate the original edit. Crum reverted, but Joshuaz replaced it noting agreement on the talk page.

My concern is that, following this, both SlimVirgin and Jayjg arrived in the next hour to revert back to the original version. SlimVirgin had left a comment earlier but had not stayed around. Jayjg had not commented at all. Elonka then arrived and protected the page for 48 hours. The issue, of course, is that it seems inappropriate to me for two admins to arrive on a policy page and revert in this fashion without attempting to participate in talk. The general pattern of these editors working together, recently discussed on this page here, also seems relevant. I raise it here for discussion. Mackan79 (talk) 02:12, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Mackan, you are forgetting that lots of editors have the policy and guideline pages on their watchlists. In addition, SV had commented several times on WT:COI prior to her recent edits. The issue is very simple: outing is prohibited. That COI allegations somehow trump the blocking policy which prohibits outing, is not anchored in any policy or guideline. There is a wide consensus on WP that outing is unacceptable, and it conforms to the existing policies and guidelines. I don't think in any case that ANI is the place to discuss policies, but your assumption that people must be actively engaged in talk page discussion prior to preventing edits that they see as contradictory to long standing policy is simply wrong. Crum375 (talk) 02:32, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I raised the policy issue here only so far as is necessary for background. In my view, if editors have a history of working very closely together across unrelated pages, they should take particular care not to show up and revert for each other without any comment on the talk page. I think this is particularly the case if the discussion has been quite involved as it's been here. Mackan79 (talk) 02:39, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I see no evidence of any such "consensus" that "outing is prohibited" as alleged by Crum375. One relatively small group of users (SlimVirgin, Crum375, JzG, and a couple of others) favor this position. Another relatively small group of users (Dan T. and Cla68 come to mind here) object to that interpretation of policy. The vast majority of Wikipedians don't really give a damn. That is pretty much the definition of no consensus. *** Crotalus *** 02:51, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I am in agreement with Mackan79 that it's a bad idea for an editor to just show up and revert, without participating at talk. When I saw that the page was getting yanked back and forth, I took a look at the talkpage, could not see a clear consensus either way, and opted to simply protect the page. I am offering no opinion on which version of wording is better, but edit-warring about it is not the way to go. --Elonka 05:19, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Re Crotalus, there is certainly also an issue with Crum375's tendency to frame issues in ways that seem to justify any amount of reverting. This happened recently in an arbcom case, where Crum was blocked after first reverting the evidence page 8 times against multiple editors and admins entirely by themself, without ever stopping to discuss the issue (and causing a minor uproar), and then returning after the page was unprotected to do this again. Crum was blocked for this by the ArbCom clerk, despite the lone claim that it was a BLP issue. Here, Crum managed to claim that removing the disputed statement about "basic policy" was itself a violation of policy and therefore also beyond community consensus, justifying Crum in reverting twice against two editors and then a third time after SV and Jayjg arrived. I don't know how JoshuaZ feels about the issue, but all of this was after he noted that Crum was becoming tendentious, and I noted that believing you alone are right does not justify continual reverting. It seems to me someone might clarify to Crum375 that this approach isn't generally considered productive. Mackan79 (talk) 11:05, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I am not taking an absolute stance either way at this time. There are times when one may draw a reasonable inference that an editor is conencted with a subject, and that does not necessarily violate their privacy, but we should be absolutely firm that publishing anything that is not trivially available from a user's own comments is at the very least extremely problematic. Outing pseudonymous individuals as a way of gaining an advantage in a content dispute, or in revenge for your POV failing to achieve consensus, is unlikely to have any good result. I don't think we need new policy to cover this, I think judicious application of Clue should be sufficient. Inferring a connection between User:BigJim and his article Big Jim's Steak House would hardly qualify as "outing". The most obvious example I can see here is user:THF, who asserted that if he had not revealed his RWI, no COI allegation would have been made. I dispute that, as his edits were often tendentious. I also have a problem with anybody who is more active in improving Misplaced Pages Review than improving Misplaced Pages making any kind of comment about outing, especially when said person seems to dispute the existence of harassment of editors. If he'd like to answer my 3am hang-up calls from a certain banned user, he's more than welcome. Guy (Help!) 13:04, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

If you're talking about Dan Tobias; he has already answered your accusations that he supposedly disputes the existence of harassment. --Random832 (contribs) 13:49, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Guy, this is similar to what people were saying on the page. If your last comment is directed at me, however, I can't be sure how much of the page you read. I think harassment is a serious concern here, specifically the serious concern, which isn't furthered by saying we can't discuss obvious conflicts, even as we do. I think other problems are also caused by that approach. But that's the policy issue, which isn't what I intended to raise. We could tie it to even bigger issues of who is on the right side of what; I think it's fair, however, simply to raise whether editors who almost constantly work together should show up and revert for each other in this way. It's a difficult issue, yes, but I don't think one that benefits from tag team revert warring. Mackan79 (talk) 14:10, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Inappropriate Archiving?

On User talk:Kei-clone, editor Kei-clone has stored a copy of MyAnimeList, an article fairly deleted through AfD on April 2nd for failing WP:WEB (by his own statement, it has now been deleted three times though only once through AfD). He first put this article on his talk page back in January, then removed it on March 17th when he recreated the page. The page was nominated for AfD on March 25th, at which point he archived the page to his user talk page again. The page was deleted, along with a related page. I left Kei a note suggesting he now remove the article, per WP:USER or move to a subpage if he intends to work on the article to try to meet notability (which was never able to be established during the entire AfD). He said he can leave it on his main talk page if he wants to because it doesn't violate WP:USER. Additionally, User:CanadaAotS has also archived the same article, on her user page, and has had that archive up since January.

I feel both of these archives our violating WP:USER, as neither is showing any sign that they are doing anything but just simply trying to keep a copy of the article on Misplaced Pages. Both archivings make their user pages appear to be an article rather than a user page. I'm asking for an admin to address this as I'm uncertain on the rules concerning this since these are main user pages instead of user subpages, and Kei's reaction makes me suspect both editors will ignore anything said by a "regular" editor, particularly the one who AfDed the original articles. Collectonian (talk) 02:29, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

If it is in usersapce, it will not come up on a wikipedia search. The question is whether it sets out to be misleading. On User talk:Kei-clone, given there is a welcome template above it and talk messages below it I'd be inclined to answer this as 'no', though one might reconsider if done up exactly to look like an article page. The second user also has a proviso above it, so in this case (at this stage) I wouldn't do anything about it. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:03, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, I am going to respectfully disagree with Casliber. I am concerned that what appears to be a full article is being "sheltered" on a talkpage, especially since the information was recently deleted at AfD. If the information is not being worked on, then the article should be blanked off the talkpage, and a diff can be included which links to the information in history. User talkpages should be used for communication between editors about Misplaced Pages content, not as archive space. If the draft is being actively worked on, then it should be moved to a subpage, though if after a reasonable period of time it appears that the subpage is just being used as a free archive to dodge the AfD, then the subpage can be nominated for deletion via Prod or Miscellany for deletion. --Elonka 07:07, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

WP:NOT#WEBHOST is relevant, here. The "article copies are okay in userspace if you're working on them" rationale seems to fall flat once the community's decided to content should be deleted. Maybe give it a little time, see if they're working on a deletion review request or something else productive and reasonable, but if it's just sitting there and they're not doing anything else, it seems we're being used as a webhost of sorts. Should the information really be needed, it'll still be available in history. GFDL compliance may be a concern, here, I haven't looked. – Luna Santin (talk) 07:23, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

once the community has decided a page should be deleted, it is especially appropriate for it to be in user space if for the purpose of improvement. Not that I think that this was being done here. And we may need a statement that such uses should be on a subpage. DGG (talk) 12:30, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

If it is in usersapce, it will not come up on a wikipedia search Er, no, it does: this is the result when I put the name in the "search" box. If you meant Google...well, User pages show up there, too, which I suspect is the entire point.

If the editor doesn't want to work on it, he can keep it on his own hard drive until he's ready. --Calton | Talk 14:56, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Scott A. Brown: W.T.F.? Suicide threat or hoax?

See Edison (talk) 03:32, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

See . Edison (talk) 03:34, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Trolling. Just delete. -- Naerii 03:34, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

See also Edison (talk) 03:36, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah I removed the messages he's been placing on article talk pages. He's probably pissed cause CFIF deleted an article of his or something. -- Naerii 03:37, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Neither threat nor hoax, just a random rant/trolling so its now deleted. - Caribbean~H.Q. 03:38, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I blocked the account. If anyone has the slightest impression that this is anything other than a troll, feel free to report to the appropriate authorities, whoever they are. --Yamla (talk) 03:43, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Just as a notice, I found some other disruptive users a couple days ago attacking CFIF, such as User:NO MORE CFIF. These might be sockpuppets. Soxred93 | talk bot 03:59, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Not sure where this belongs - USERPAGE: EBDCM

Had it on my watchlist to see the outcome of the block (not sure what happened to the ANI thread on it?). I noticed that today QuackGuru erased the users userpage completely. EBDCM noted on his talk page that he is taking a wikibreak until monday. I don't think we should be erasing his userpage in the meantime - or is this normal when someone is blocked? (diff) DigitalC (talk) 03:55, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

If he's been indefed then he's persona non grata. Blanking a user's page isn't unusual. HalfShadow (talk) 03:57, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Some previous discussion has been archived at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive394#User talk:EBDCM unblock review. --Newbyguesses (talk) 04:15, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

It is normal practice to put an indef-template on a userpage for an indef-blocked editor. EBDCM is being incivil again by claiming it was done in poor taste. QuackGuru (talk) 20:00, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Live mirror

Sorry, wasn't sure where to report this. appears to be a live mirror. Stevage 04:03, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages's material is freely available per the GNU license, what is particulary relevant about this mirror? - Caribbean~H.Q. 04:13, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

It appears to be "live", based on the frequency of updates. Anyway, looks to have already been reported at meta. Stevage 04:23, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Deleting pages of banned users

I wandered onto Editor Review and noted the , where I noted:

Misplaced Pages:Editor_review/Solumeiras Misplaced Pages:Editor review/Littleteddy

should they be filed somewhere or just deleted? Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:47, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I'd probably recommend just leaving them. We don't necessarily need to expunge all existence of departed users (even the forcefully departed), and I suppose there's a small chance they might be useful for some reason, later. But that's not a particularly strong opinion. – Luna Santin (talk) 06:51, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

breeched name

My user name has been hacked. It says i editted something three days ago. Well, the only problem is i have been away from my computer for a week. I believe user named Jakew is probably responsible. I think he had problems with my neighbor and he's taking it out on me. I swear! I havent even been home for a week yet it says i editted something on april 5. This is IMPOSSIBLE. What do i do? I already changed my password. Mayday2010 (talk) 06:02, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Assuming your story is reliable, there's nothing much for admins to do, here. You're responsible for the security of your machine and your account. If your account's been compromised, changing your password is one step; you may also want to disable any "remember me" features or otherwise protect your physical security. Mostly, though, take this as a lesson learned and be more careful in the future. – Luna Santin (talk) 06:42, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Also, make sure that the user who broke into your account can't get a new password e-mailed to him/her. Open your preferences, and make sure that if there's an e-mail listed - that it's an e-mail under your control. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 07:37, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

You'll also want to secure your wireless network using WPA (not WEP) if you haven't done so already. Additionally, avoid public wireless networks when possible. If you do not do so, someone can hijack your session by sniffing for your session cookies and/or sniffing your login information. --slakr 11:17, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

This is slightly confusing, because eleven minutes before you wrote the above message, you made an edit in which you said that you did make those edits. Five minutes after that, you deleted that message, and then a minute later you left another message for the same user saying that you didn't. Perhaps you could clarify the situation? Jakew (talk) 11:33, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Mayday2010, I also don't see where User:Jakew harrassed you - perhaps you could point that out? Because at the moment my finger is hovering over the block button for that edit. Black Kite 12:19, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I would also point to a similarity between the edit summaries of Mayday2010 and User:70.114.38.167 - the use of tildes in the summary. I wonder if there should be a RFCU between Mayday2010 and the ip, and Jakew (just to be on the safe side). I am not inclined to get further involved in this, since I am considerably irritated by the messages now on my talkpage. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:05, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Wow, that's a lot of good faith we're assuming here. User:Mayday2010 and User:70.114.38.167 are so obviously the same person, and so obviously out to harrass JakeW, that the only reason I'm not blocking Mayday2010 indef myself is that several admins with more experience than me have reviewed the situation and declined to do so. Please review the early history of User talk:Mayday2010; they were caught in 70.114.38.167's autoblock, and multiple admins declined the unblock request; I don't have time to wade thru the block logs to figure out how Mayday actually got someone to undo the autoblock, or who the unblocking admin was, but before I leave WP for the day, my suggestion is to block the sockpuppet. Not only is it a sock, but it's being used to harass. --barneca (talk) 13:19, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

In fact, I'm going to trust my instincts. I'm blocking Mayday2010 indef. as a harassing sockpuppet. Anyone who thinks there's more than a 0.1% chance Mayday and the IP are not the same person is welcome to revert without discussing it with me; I'll be offline for several hours. --barneca (talk) 13:27, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I think you were correct to do so - I didn't do this earlier since I was peering through a red mist, and I didn't want to make a mistake. Thanks for your actions. LessHeard vanU (talk) 18:40, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Harassment and stalking against Romanian editors

Nowadays, there are many signs against harassment and stalking against Romanian editors. I have to complain since I've been one of the witness of such campaign. See for example template:Romanian diaspora; Central Europe; Bălţi and Moldovans articles. I urge the stalkers to stop their continuous edit war and their campaign against Romanian editors.Marc KJH (talk) 10:58, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Here is the list of Romanian editors that have been the victim of stalking and harassment:

• User:Olahus
• User:Rezistenta
• User:Marc KJH —Preceding comment was added at 10:59, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Among the harassers are:

• User:JdeJ
• User:NeroN BG
• User:Buffer_v2 (he was blocked for using socks, but only for a week, now he's again edit warring) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marc KJH (talk • contribs) 11:00, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

As a result, I had to open RfC against the first user:JdeJ. - Marc KJH (talk) 11:11, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to state this as forthright as I can, and I mean no offence: no-one will give a damn. They'll see it as more ethnic bickering, and it's so commonplace these days... Sceptre 11:13, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Just to comment. The above user, Marc KJH, is far from a witness nor a victim. He's the one who has just returned from a one week block because of harassing editors who don't share his opinions and, like many others before him, now wants to report those who reported him. Fine, I would then expect him to provide diffs of our harassment. I'm the first to agree that I have warned some of the users above. They are repeatedly deleting fact tags and other tags from the article Central Europe and never bother to provide any sources. I won't go into that discussion here as it is already very long on the relevant talk page. I do wan't to point out that comments about consistent deletion of tags is hardly harassment. As for Olahus and Rezistenta, I disagree with both users at times but outside our differences of opinions, I have no problems with either of them. Marc KJH is another matter, as he has returned almost immedediately to harassing me after his previous block for the same offense ended. This remark out of the blue is a case in point . JdeJ (talk) 11:16, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

The proof is that you have never edited Romanian articles only after you started to harass Olahus and me. You can't deny this fact. I have never invited you, nor will do it since you prove to be a stalker and harasser. You followed the articles that we edit. So, you're a stalker. Marc KJH (talk) 11:45, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I have had several European Geography articles on my watchlist for months, you came to most of them after I did. As far as I can remember, I have only made one or two edits ever to articles dealing specifically with Romania. JdeJ (talk) 12:08, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

You haven't appologize for your stalking and harassment. I want to see it from you as a good sign. What's important is to get along. If you want it.Marc KJH (talk) 12:13, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I haven't apologised for the fall of the Roman Empire either. As long as I haven't harassed anybody, and not even a diff of such an action has been provided, it's rather hard to apologised for something nobody but you thinks has happened. JdeJ (talk) 12:15, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I feel compelled to inquire why a user such as Marc KJH is editing articles on English Misplaced Pages in the first place, given that his command of English appears to be poor. I have some rudimentary French, but I wouldn't think of going to edit the French Misplaced Pages. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) 12:16, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Uh-oh. A newish user engaging in Romania-related edit wars, complaining about edits to Balti, and filing querulous RfC's? Who just happened to install Lupin popups in his monobook three minutes after his first edit? I know a checkuser or two might be interested to take a quick look at this case. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:21, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

...began with some unrelated articles, moved to Romania-related articles in a rather characteristic fashion, complained in a rather typical way on ANI a few hours after his first edit, engaged in clandestine redirecting of same old, harassed other users and actually been identified as a sockpuppet account! Future, you're losing your touch (or rather, Rouge-ness)! ;-) --Illythr (talk) 17:02, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

User:Hkelkar sock

Possible Hkelkar sock. Special:Contributions/Hansel_gretel_toothdecay. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 11:34, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Model (person)

Something needs to be done, but I'm not sure if protection, blocking, wrist-splapping, or what is in order. Over at Model (person), there has been a slow, continuous edit war over the "correct" image of Gisele Bundchen to use. Of course, not a single entry on the talk page.

• User:Opinoso sets it to one
• User:FireOcean sets it to the other
• User:Opinoso sets it to one
• User:Mywikipedista sets it to the other
• User:Opinoso sets it to the one

This goes on, well, nearly forever in edit-warring timelines. On March 9th, the article was protected to put a stop to this. It worked until March 29th, when Opinoso starts it up again. Kww (talk) 13:50, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I have applied a simple solution - I have removed the image entirely and replaced it with another model image from further down the article. The next person to put either of the darn Gisele Bundchen images back in (neither of which is particularly great, anyway) gets blocked. WP:LAME is the appropriate spot for this edit war. Neıl ☎ 14:05, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Bobby Bones Show

A gaggle of IPs seem to be using Bobby Bones Show as a chat-room. Perhaps it should be semi-protected to give a chance to clean it up. JohnCD (talk) 13:53, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I know vote soliciting is frowned on, guidance please

User:Doc glasgow/BLP watch I know vote soliciting is frowned upon. Is there a policy or guideline that addresses vote soliciting? An essay? If so, could someone direct my attention to it? I looked. I can't find it.

If not, let me lay out the disturbing circumstances.

Two years or so ago a nominator admonished me for leaving some heads-up on the talk pages of some people who said, "if another article like this gets nominated, let me know". I didn't know this was frowned upon. And I haven't done it since. The nominator who admonished me showed me how to use the deletion sorting project.

Now, if I understand this issue, the use of the deletion sorting project is not considered vote soliciting because it is conducted openly and transparently. In particular the person who places a note about the deletion, or whatever, on the deletion sorting page, they put a link back to the deletion sorting page in the forum. I found someone I disagree with has used a similar mechanism, to draw the attention of people to a formal procedure discussion, but, in this case, they did so silently, and did not add a link back to their watch page in the discussion. I am concerned because this does not seem open and transparent to me.

Note: I did not mention the name of my correspondent, or the venue of the discussion, on purpose, because I am sure regular readers here would appreciate that discussion not slopping over here.

Thanks! Geo Swan (talk) 13:55, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

You could read up on WP:CANVASS and WP:MEAT. I'll check back in an hour or so, got to go to class. Grsz11 13:56, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

• I transcluded it into this section. Your starter for ten and no conferring: which way are we asking you to vote in each of the debates? Bonus points if you can spot the words "keep" or "delete" anywhere in the template. Geo Swan seems to be sore that Ahmed Adnan Muhammad Ajam was deleted and looks set to be endorsed, and that Muhamad Naji Subhi Al Juhani is vulnerable to a similar deletion, with a majority for keep being overwhelmed by WP:BLP and the fact that the sources are not about the subject but about the processes in which he has been involved. As I said in the close of the Ajam debate, keep !votes adequately establish that the detention camp, and the detention of this individual, are notable, but not that the detention of this individual is notable individually, distinct from other detainees, and not that the detainee is himself notable. No significant sources independent of the detention are provided. The knockout blow in the Ajam case is the lack of any secondary biographical sources, and the same applies for most of the Gitmo detainees. Lots of articles about the camp, the perfectly valid criticisms of the US government for engaging in detention without trial and abrogating its responsibilities under the Geneva Convention, but no actual biographical sources primarily about the individual detainees. DGG says at deletion review that this accurately reflects consensus, but in his view consensus is wrong. I can entirely accept that there are people who accept while disagreeing with consensus that living individuals notable only for one event, should be covered as the event not as biographies. We can disagree on this in civil terms, one of the many philosophical debates on Misplaced Pages at any one time. Still and all, it seems that Geo Swan considers that the consensus is wrong and listing debates related to the consensus is also wrong. That is a more contentious view. Guy (Help!) 18:36, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, if you did it the old-fashioned way, and not on a protected sandbox page in Doc's user-space, this practice might not be so poorly received. Something like {{subst:delsort|Living people}}, i.e.

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Living people-related deletion discussions.

would blend in perfectly with the others and nobody would care too much. Amid the growing BLP pandemonium I'm surprised this hasn't been created already. — CharlotteWebb 21:04, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

WP:DRAMA = WP:ANI ?

I'm just a lurker, but is WP:DRAMA really supposed to link to this noticeboard? That seems odd... Dgcopter (talk) 14:58, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Funny. My last edit. --Relata refero (disp.) 15:01, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

and --barneca (talk) 15:04, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I think it's intended to be one of those little harmless, but still amusing, things that keeps us admins somewhat sane. Hersfold 15:32, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Apparently it is supposed to link here. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 15:52, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I like the humorous redirects. I use WP:SMITE all the time. Neıl ☎ 18:59, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

PFFFTT! I didn't know SMITE existed. I'm using that too. In the same vein, I believe WP:SMOTE should go here. Any takers? Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 20:55, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I would love for WP:PWNRSHP and/or WP:PWNAGE to go to WP:OWN. Also, WP:PWNED could possibly go to something block- or ban-related. Mike R (talk) 21:33, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

It used to... — CharlotteWebb 22:05, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

<outdent> Just an FYI, WP:SMOTE was a redlink when I posted above. Now it goes where I thought, humorously, where it should go. Ack. What have I gotten myself into??? :-) Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 00:58, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

All the Crazy™

Heya, I am dealing with some rather "interesting edits" in the Fitna article. Some pretty aggressive behavior in the article discussion page, which is translating to some edit-warring in the article. I was going to request semi-protection as there appears to be some sock-farming going on there. Aside from the socking, a lot ofthe folk contributing there are pretty new, and its a bit Wild West-y there. A wikiquette alert report was filed (against me) complaining about my Obtructionist behavior in not allowing flagicons and whatnot, and I am increasingly of the opinion that the tone of the article discussion is being run on caffeine and aggro, and maybe even some good, old-fashioned oversensitivity. Maybe someone with deep boots could one-stop-assist with a semi-protection tag and a bit of that calming balm of an admin post suggesting folk cool their jets? - Arcayne () 15:20, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I took a look at the conversation between you and the IP. Protection would be the worst action here, as it would prevent the IP from editing - and other editors have opined that it's a dispute between you and the IP. Your concerns about the use of a sock are valid, because one editor is using several IP addys to edit the article. His admission of such does not alleviate him from all responsibility because it is very confusing for all editors involved. Feel free to file a sock-report and if you are not happy with my unwillingness to protect the page, you can go to WP:RFPP. Other than that, I don't see a need for administrative action. the_undertow 18:57, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

An aggressive sock puppet?

Could anyone check please if an IP 206.186.8.130 (please see his talk page ) is a sock puppet of User:RJ_CG? They both conducted RR warring at the same page Chekism: . Note that User:RJ_CG inserts poorly sourced defamatory statements in BLP of Yelena Tregubova right now .Biophys (talk) 16:15, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Consistent edit warring

 Done

User:CarlosRodriguez has made several identical edits over the course of the last two days. He's been warned about these edits, that serve to push his POV by numerous users: , , , , , , , . Thanks, Grsz11 16:31, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Isn't this the same issue as WP:ANI#User:CarlosRodriguez (above)? --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 21:35, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, and that didn't get attention because another user turned it into an attack against myself and other user who was trying to show support for the complaint. It was resolved. Grsz11 21:38, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

IP 71.138.49.121

This user is perhaps the single most persistent person I've come accross. Numerous attempts of contacting him have been made (with little or no result), he has been warned numerous times, and he has been blocked numerous times (check e.g. User_talk:71.138.49.102, User_talk:70.137.65.163, User_talk:Markfish, User_talk:70.230.215.18, User_talk:71.134.211.156, and User_talk:69.232.66.4). Recently, under IP 71.138.49.121, he has been active on Greg Bahnsen (, , , , ), eventually leading to a block (), and it appears he has kept away from that article since. He is still very active in another article, cichlid, which he first set his eye on more than a year (!) ago. For a small intro into the situation regarding this and associated articles, check this on the talk page for WikiProject Aquarium Fishes, and this on the talk page for cichlid. While the issue of changing numbers in cichlid may seem like a small thing, his persistent doing so without being willing to provinde any sources at all (indeed, changing the numbers within a fully referenced sentence, making it appear as if "his version" was supported by the ref's) has also been at least part of the reason for valuable contributors just loosing interest in the article, as indeed evident by the abandonement of List of things to do prior to going to FA. Following recent changes by him in early March (, , , , , and ), leading to several warnings ( (two warnings there), and ), and eventually the article was semi-protected (). Following this, I forwarded a note saying I was fully willing to add "his number" if he could provide a reference (see entire section in green here), but as usual this has been met with complete silence from his side. Unfortunately, just a few hours after the one month semi-protection ended, he returned (), and has been going on from there (, and ) despite warnings (, and ). How can we deal with this? The semi-protection of cichlid evidently did not stop him, and based on the timing of his edit after it was lifted, one can only suspect he simply was waiting for that day. The temporary block seems to have resulted in him keeping away from the Greg Bahnsen article, and as this most recent IP seems fairly stabil (he evidently has had it for at least a month, since March 4 ()), I therefore request a temporary block of this IP. Alternatively, are IP range bans from certain articles possible (as I suggested here)? RN1970 (talk) 17:27, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

• If the lack of response indicates that I am posting this in the wrong place or doing something wrong, I would greatly appreciate a hint from a more experianced wikipedian (I'm still fairly new at this). Since my last post, he has been there again. RN1970 (talk) 00:47, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Oversight needed?

Someone just vandalized European windstorm and inserted the name and supposed phone number of someone. Does this require oversight? Sorry if my question is stupid but I'd rather ask and look like a fool than ignore it. EconomicsGuy (talk) 17:31, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I would say yes, and in the future questions like this (and this one specifically) could be more usefully directed to oversight-l (AT) lists.wikimedia.org. Avruch 17:35, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

The revision was deleted - the edit can still be oversighted, its at the discretion of the oversighter (and the policy) so an e-mail to them might still be useful. Avruch 17:38, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

hay Avruch, you might want to use AT instead of @ in emails. that way spam crawlers dont pick it up. β 18:31, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Will do and I'll remember to contact them directly next time. EconomicsGuy (talk) 17:41, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Jerry Covington and Covington's Customs

Jerry Covington has been editing disruptively, using all of the following user accounts in the past few hours:

• Covingtons (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• BanThisNameillMake10More (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 75.127.109.26 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 68.93.183.59 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Random667 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

He has been edit warring on Jerry Covington with various user names, and has been recreating Covington's Customs over and over again, despite the fact that it keeps getting speedied. Two of his accounts have already been permanently blocked, but much more drastic action is required here. Qworty (talk) 18:03, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Protected Covington's Customs for a while to prevent recreation. seicer | talk | contribs 18:08, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I've also indef. blocked Random667 for recreation of other blocked accounts. seicer | talk | contribs 18:23, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Comment. I am not sure it is Covington himself, an employee, or a fan, but yes, whoever it is, they have been edit warring and generally being disruptive. Maybe worthwhile protecting Jerry Covington too for a short period. – ukexpat (talk) 18:13, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

• That article sucks very badly. Hopefully any fix will not prevent it being improved, preferably by completely rewriting. Guy (Help!) 21:51, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Return of problem editor A B Pepper

A B Pepper has been a problem editor off and on over at Christian views about women. He's very disruptive, uncivil, and inserts POV against consensus into articles. He received a 3-month block followed by an indefinite one for this behavior .

He's recently shown up again as IP 97.88.222.103. His behavior and POV are identical. For an example, compare this edit from the IP with the edit summary from one of A B Pepper's old edits here.

This guy will probably continue to be a problem off-and-on for a while. Sχeptomaniac 19:52, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Note Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/A B Pepper. 75.132.95.79 is also blocked as this editor. Reviewing the history, I agree that this editor is now using IP 97.88.222.103. This version of their deleted talk page (admins only) expresses their reason for being here, and Durova's comment on it explains the behavior issues that have recurred. I'm not sure what, if anything, we can effectively do about this editor. We can play whack-a-mole every so often when he or she makes his or her identity clear. Unless they learn to avoid the personal attacks, by the time the identity is clear there will also be reason to block. Can anyone think of a way to mentor this editor? Or are we doomed to another whack-a-mole game? In the meantime, blocked. GRBerry 20:29, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Frankly, I doubt he could be convinced to accept mentoring. His behavior leads me to believe he's not as interested in building an encyclopedia as he is in proving his superiority to everyone else. Sχeptomaniac 20:57, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

If he turns up on that IP once the block expires, just block it again for 6 months. Tim Vickers (talk) 23:05, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

User 216.125.163.43

User_talk:216.125.163.43

Has been repeatedly blocked in the past and has started on a new string of vandal edits. Dialectric (talk) 20:33, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Maternity clothing

I've been reverting edits to Pregnancy and Mother by Danmasri (talk · contribs) and 71.249.69.142 (talk · contribs) that added Maternity clothing to the See Also sections. At first it was annoying. Then I determined that maternity clothing was just an advertisement for, guess what, maternity clothing retailers. I put that up for speedy delete. But I'm going to get hit for WP:3RR on Mother, because I keep making the same edit. Can someone block these two (I assume they're sockpuppets of each other), delete the Maternity clothing article, and let me go back to editing? Thanks. OrangeMarlin 22:48, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I tend not to hang around this page very much, but I had to find out what the heck you were doing with maternity clothing, Orangemarlin.  :-) Glad to see it's merely an edit war with spammers. I'll keep Mother on my watchlist too. Risker (talk) 22:56, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Looks like the speedy worked. I doubt if anyone would clobber you on WP:3RR for reverting persistent addition of links to, essentially, spam. However, I'll watch Mother, if not Watch with Mother. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 22:58, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, it's nice to know that AN/I watchers have a sense of humor. Do I dare click on some of these links? OrangeMarlin 23:04, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

On a more serious note, why do we not have a proper article about maternity clothing? — CharlotteWebb 23:21, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Why should we? It's not important in either Star Trek or Pokemon. Tim Vickers (talk) 23:25, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I thought we did: Loose Fit and Baggy Trousers for a start. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 23:28, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

3RR doesn't apply to removal of spam (Misplaced Pages:3RR#Exceptions). But I suppose there's no harm in being on the safe side. James086 23:59, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

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