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India: Karnataka / Tamil Nadu Start‑class

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Spelling

Is the spelling (Hogenakal with one "k") correct? I am aware of the fact that the Latin spelling of Indian place names is subject to variations, but Hogenakkal (with two "k") scores significantly more Google hits than the spelling with one "k". At the least, a redirect from one spelling to the other would be prudent. -- 129.69.181.199 14:01, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Hogenakkal

Which state is Hogenakkal Falls located in ? I was under the impression that it is in TN, as is reported by this site.

Why do we need both Tamil and Kannada transliterations ? Depending on what state it is located in, I think we should remove the other.

Since no objections have been raised, I presume it's ok to remove the Kannada transliteration. Lotlil 14:22, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Tamilnadu Tourism Official website mentions here that the falls are on the border, so makes sense to retain both -- Amarrg 09:15, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

While I think you've misunderstood the meaning of that statement in Tamilnadu tourism website, you at least had the decency to bring citations and argue, unlike some vandals who keep reverting without knowing squat about anything. In any case, it lies on the border, but comes under the jurisdiction of GoTN, so even if you want to include Kannada, it has to be behind Tamil. Lotlil 13:46, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Nope, I dont think I have misunderstood. By the way, the question on who has the jurisdiction of the falls is inconclusive as seen here. The current order is good enough. Moreover, Hogenakal is a word derived from Kannada and hence Kannada transliteration deserves to be the first -- Amarrg 13:56, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Jurisdiction of Hogenakal Falls is not disputed, it is firmly with TN. The website you listed only says the following:

"...condemning the encroachment of an island near Hogenakal Falls."

So what is being questioned is not the falls itself, but an island near it. Lotlil 14:25, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Please see this article (which is the Dharmapuri District official website and says - Hogenakal is at the border of Karnataka) and this (The Hindu - which says that the actual boundary is in the middle of the Cauvery river, and hence the Hogenakal Falls). Actually Kar and TN wanted to do a joint survey of the area to clear the dispute, but it has not happened. Till it is through, we cannot say that one state or the other has a jurisdiction over the falls itself. Hope this clarifies -- Amarrg 16:17, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Again, your link only says the following:

"Even as the argument between the State and Tamil Nadu over an island near Hogenakkal Falls threatens to become a serious dispute..."

So, again, the dispute is about an island not the entire falls. The boundary being the middle of the river is only where the river forms the boundary of the states. This is only true at the higher elevations and does not follow along the waterfall. And, I dont see any mention about joint survey, could you give a link? Lotlil 16:41, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

You can interpret it the way you want but IMHO if Dharmapuri district (and TN tourism website) had complete jurisdiction on the falls it would have mentioned that the falls are in the district and not on the border of Karnataka. If you want to discredit the contents of an official district website of Tamil Nadu, I will find it futile to discuss further on this... -- Amarrg 16:51, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Amar, please.. Sarvagnya 21:03, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

I had been ignoring this page for a while since I got busy elsewhere, but there seems to be some activity of late, so I thought I'd chime in. Amar seems to interpret "being at the border" to mean "shared jurisdiction". While I don't agree with the interpretation, I can see that there's some ambiguity at the source. So, I want to bring in a more authentic and explicit reference from GoI. This link pretty much walks you through the course of the river, saying what part of it lies in what state. Excerpt:

At Sivasamudram, the river dips by about 97m. in a series of falls and rapids and, after flowing through a very narrow gorge, continues its East-ward journey and forms the boundary between the States of Karnataka and Tamil Nadu for a distance of about 64km. Below Sivasamudram, it receives the Shimsha, and then Arkavathy, just before entering the territory of Tamil Nadu. In Tamil Nadu, the river Cauvery continues to flow East-wards upto Hogenakal Falls and takes a Southerly course and enters the Mettur reservoir. It leaves the Eastern Ghats below Mettur and is joined by Bhavani, about 45 km. downstream.

Lotlil 21:04, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Amarrg's contention is that since Tamilnadu tourism site states its on the border with Karnataka, it belongs to Karnataka. But the Karnataka tourism doesn't even mention the falls. If it were to lie on the Karnataka side of the border, it should have been mentioned in the State's tourism site. Also there is a lot of talk about a dispute whether Hogenakkal belongs to Karnataka or Tamil nadu. This allegation is baseless as there is no such claim made by the Karnataka government at any time. There is only a dispute regarding some islands near the falls and the surveys were meant to iron it out. 159.53.46.141 (talk) 16:34, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Kindly note that Hogennakal falls is in Tamilnadu and not in karnataka. i guess we need to stop the editing of this article and revert it back to its original form of the falls being in tamilnadu. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aravind.iyer (talk • contribs) 08:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

You are wrong.hogenakal belongs to karnataka.not tamilnadu —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.92.194.90 (talk) 06:49, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

How far is it from Chennai

Hogenakal is more than 350 KMs from Chennai. It is 20 KMs from Male Mahadeshwara Hills in Karnataka and 45 Kms from Dharmapuri in Tamilnadu. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kanindian (talk • contribs) 20:32, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

its all fake... hogenakal belongs to karnataka has the name only suggests its belongs to karnataka no more arguments..

There is a dispute in the content of "Land dispute" link in this page.

The fact that the content under "Land dispute" in this page is abruptly written and abruptly ended too seems to expose the misquoted content of the page that it is linking to. Has Misplaced Pages referred to this link and examined its reliability? As far as facts go, there is no such claim made by Karnataka state to have Erode and such places in its possession. Besides, I wonder why a dispute about these lands needs to be mentioned here on a page talking about Hogenakal falls and perhaps the dispute of the border between KA and TN states. Erode is visibly far away from the border nearing these falls.

I strongly urge re-phrasing the land dispute section to make it sound more reasonable in this context. This link would be helpful in understanding the context —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rohith.br (talk • contribs) 15:28, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

i too know erode is far away but that is what kannada saluvali katchi thalaivar had to say..please get a tamil interpreter to read the text in this widely circulating respected newspaper dated 2 april 20008 @ http://dkn.dinakaran.co.in/firstpage.aspx# Lieskillme (talk) 18:10, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Location of Hogenakal falls

Since the Hogenakal falls is originally considered (and a fact indeed) to lie well inside Karnataka's border, and never, inside of Dharmapuri district of Tamilnadu, it makes little sense for Wiki to be talking like this about this waterfall of Karnataka. It is agreeable that there is an ongoing dispute in Indian courts about this border, but please give it a thought before telling me what sense does it make for one to provide google map links to prove (a myth that it is) one's point? Does the satellite see the borders that really matter? Google maps can only show you the maps that it has been given by the central govt of India - and that is what is being disputed. So now, tell me, if you think that providing this kind of evidence to (mis)quote things is congruent with Wiki principles.

Besides, I have shown it very clearly, and everyone accepts it too. The name of the waterfall is in Kannada, and that it goes to show how much it belongs to Karnataka itself. And its not that it has been named only recently like that, unlike some places names in today's Karnataka, which the Tamils may come back claiming, but Hogenakal has been its name since the waterfall had been spotted by people in that area - and those people spoke Kannada then, and not Tamil.

Even today, people originally belonging to that place speak Kannada, and are part of the Karnataka state, not Tamilnadu.

"Stop publishing that Hogenakal falls belongs to Tamilnadu, accept reality, speak to your own mind, and then think about what you want, and a fair way of getting it." - this is to the person repeatedly editing the content on this page in favour of myths and lies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rohith.br (talk • contribs) 02:36, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree,Hogenakal belongs to karnataka. - MCM19 (talk) 09:32, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

To thow some more light:- Hogenakal is a confluence of two words Hoge --> Smoke and kalu --> Rock / stone in Kannada.This verdant falls is engulfed by smoke. The apparent smoke is formed by the water descending from the falls. Hence this was named as smoke rock. This aboriginal name was coined from the language of the land Kannada. Hogenakal is situated in Chamarajnagara District, Karnataka State. Although this has been made a controversial land, TN has weak arguments to claim. This has been branded as disputed land, much unfortunate for Karnataka. Still Karnataka has the right over the land until the Issue is resolved. All law of Karnataka Government and only Karnataka Government is officially applicable in Hogenakal. One Illustration: Law and order perspective: Any crime, theft,.. are reported to Chamarajnagara Police station (in Karnataka state). First information report (FIR) is filed in Chamarajnagara Police Karnataka State. --59.92.140.116 (talk) 09:10, 6 April 2008 (UTC)Subramanya

Please provide references on when Karnataka Government contested Tamil Nadu's juristriction over Hogenakkal Falls. As per the quotes provided in this site, only some islands near the falls are disputed by Karnataka Government.

Also please provide references (Website quotes from karnataka govt/Central govt or tamil nadu govt sites) that it belongs to Chamarajanagara district in Karntaka.

If your claim is purely based on the origin of the name "Hogenakkal", it stands no legal ground just like the fact that Belgaum does not belong to Maharashtra inspite of that place having a Marathi speaking majority and the mayor of that city passing a resolution to join Maharashtra according to the wishes of the people of that district.--Gthorvey (talk) 19:40, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I guess this discussion is leading to a troll with POVs. Lets get WP:RS over here with what we gotto say. Did Karnataka give a go to TN for the Hogenakkal water project? Yes as far as the old news that we can see and also . If someone can produce references before the current year (since the crisis has risen up now), then we can see some logic in it. Yes Hogenakkal is a Kannada word and so is India a Latin word of Greek derivatives. But lets keep our own POVs and ORs out. Cheers Wiki San Roze 17:26, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

River as border

According to the co-ordinates given in this site and according to Google Maps, WikiMapia and MSN Maps, the river never forms the border between Karnataka and Tamil Nadu .

According to this map, the river flows through mutthathi forests in Karnataka, enters Tamil Nadu and continues to flow into Billgundala in Tamil Nadu and re-enters Karnataka beyond Hogenakkal falls.

A Youtube video reference is provided of Mr. H N Nanje Gowda. This guy happens to be a former Karnataka Minister belonging to BJP, which TamilNadu is accusing of starting this controversy for political gains in the upcoming Karnataka general elections. How can his statement be considered as neutral or authentic?

Please remove this section if further references are not given.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Gthorvey (talk • contribs) 16:13, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Youtube can't be used as WP:RS, agreed on that. The news of his support for the project and his view that the falls comes under the TN territory was report here. Although this is not english WP:CITE states that ...However, do give references in other languages where appropriate. If quoting from a different language source, an English translation should be given with the original-language quote beside it... It can also be argued again that this is a Tamil website and would support TN stand-point. But thatstamil.com is part of oneindia.com which also runs thatskannada.com and hence they cannot be argued as single sided. But to keep out trolls and maintain calm here I shall rephrase the sentence there. If someone still feels that it has not been phrased properly leave a {{lopsided}} tag there. Cheers Wiki San Roze 16:56, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree that this statement cannot be argued as biased but is it accurate? The below statement contradicts the state boundary according to Google Maps. Which one do we take as accurate?

The Kaveri river which flows on a stretch of around 60kms (on the periphery of Chamarajanagara district, Kollegala Taluk, in Karnataka), having Karnataka on one side and Tamilnadu on the other forms a virtual border between the two states.

--Gthorvey (talk) 17:51, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Yup Gthorvey, I don't think that is right. Feel free to remove it, lets see if someone comes up with a ref for that. Well spotted. Wiki San Roze 02:35, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

edited the article with actual references

i have edited the article with actual references from both the state and central governments records . and stubbed it as Tamilnadu geo-location stub .--@ the $un$hine . (talk) 12:25, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I've reverted your edits.
Reason->boundary is still in dispute
see http://www.hindu.com/2005/09/30/stories/2005093006130400.htm - MCM19 (talk) 14:39, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Hey MCM19! Please read your own reference. It states Row between State and Tamil Nadu on jurisdiction over island near the tourist spot of Hogenakkal Falls. There is no dispute on the falls (on which this wiki article is about) but only about an island near the falls. Cheers Wiki San Roze 14:52, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

MCM19's Deccan herald reference

I think MCM is failing to read that his own reference says that the falls is in TN. It clearly states Hogenakal Falls is undoubtedly one of the most beautiful places in Tamil Nadu state. and I dont see how you can call Deccan herald better source over Govt websites. Although right now I would like to AGf with you, please refrain from adding things without reading to wikipedia. Cheers Wiki San Roze 15:21, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

it cleary states hogenakkal falls is situated in karnatka -tamilnadu border.can you see it?? - MCM19 (talk) 15:24, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Tell me how is Deccan herald more RS than Govt website? And it states both that it is in the border and on the TN. Which part of this is hard to understand for you? Wiki San Roze 15:27, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

previous references which is added by User:Pearll's sun is not from a government website. please recheck it. - MCM19 (talk) 15:31, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Do you know what NIC.IN stands for? Do you know who owns it? Do you know who hosts websites for President of India to all the ministries? Please get your info straight. Cheers Wiki San Roze 15:39, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

sorry,i've no idea about NIC
those reference links cites for Hogenakkal_(village) not about hogenakkal falls - MCM19 (talk) 15:46, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

NIC is Govt establishment. Where does it state that it is about the village and NOT about falls? Is this your OR. Remember that you have already breached 3RR. It is best practice to revert your changes. Cheers Wiki San Roze 15:48, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

sorry ,i'am in sleepy mood,unable to reply.do whatever you want,add anything you like.i never comeback to this article page again.bcoz i failed to prove the information which is true. - MCM19 (talk) 15:54, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

so u must have been in a sleepy mood while you edited all those references .lol. so you'v failed to prove your informations , you must first agree to the point that when you fail to prove something it's better to recheck the trueness/actualness of all those you've learn t which may or may not be correct , and moreover as User:Wiki San Roze stated all NIC websites are a part of the ministry of information and technology and is in no way a private concern so you have no way other than to trust it . we never discourage members who produce true references from trustable\good sources . it's wise to learn something that is true than to quit it , simply quitting leaves you simply leaves you to trust false claims .--@ the $un$hine . (talk) 17:26, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Village or the falls

There has been a new perspective arised by some editors that the census data may point out to the village and not to the falls. The website doesnt say that it is not the falls but only the village and people who have been indeed following this issue would know that the dispute has always been only on the island and not on the falls. A clear case of misunderstanding is very evident. Coming back to the point of village or falls unless someone comes with a RS that the census data on nic.in domain is pointing to the village. As I said earlier in the previous section, this would stay as an OR to claim that the census is talking about village, unless someone comes up with an RS on it. Please do not troll, edit war without sources. Moverover, may I request all editors to discuss before making changes. I am indeed aware of WP:BOLD, but for a disputed article like this, anyone who wants to maintain peace will discuss before making major changes. And please use your own reasoning if your changes are prone for edit warring and if it does, please discuss. Cheers. Wiki San Roze 17:52, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Please refer to this report on Cauvery issue on Ministry of Law website(THANKS TO Lotlil). It clearly states that the FALLS without any ambiguity that it is within TN. Cheers Wiki San Roze 18:10, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

i wish if all the members who edit the article without knowing the actual facts from the government websites . so im here providing all the infos which are mentioned in the government gazette . . --@ the $un$hine . (talk) 18:27, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

It is really shameful to see that people are still reverting their own POV in spite of loads of references provided that the falls was always regarded to be part of TN. Even Karnataka State Tourism Development Corporation (THANKS @ the $un$hine) agrees on it. So what is the problem folks? Pushing your POV on Misplaced Pages? The only reason neither @ the $un$hine nor I are not reverting the POVs is that we are running a risk of 3RR which am sure the POV pushers will be so glad to point out. What more do you want folks? The Law Ministry accepts that, Karnataka's own KSTDC accepts that, but a bunch of[REDACTED] editors cant? Can't beleive we do live in a civilised world!! Wiki San Roze 09:53, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

yup ! this claim inspite of concrete references from the Karnataka State Tourism Development Corporation is really a shame , some are even claiming more parts of TamilNadu . during chola dynasty the tamil rulers even had more lands under their rule which are now as various states and nations , does any one claim the same now ?? even the english ruler's had a many nations under them , if all start's to claim their presence then where will this issue lead to ?? people must think what they are up to and the result of the same . one thing they should be aware that each and every event is now gets marked in the history so these such claims will sure do no good for a healthier future . --@ the $un$hine . (talk) 12:41, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

article tagged as not neutral , needs cleanup & disputed

i have been forced to tag an article which was once a good one , but now to preven poor wikipedians from reading false claims im tagging . —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pearll's sun (talk • contribs) 12:44, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

tag's removed as the article is cleaned and now clear from any disputes and all such earlier disputes have been addressed with real references . --@ the $un$hine . (talk) 23:06, 14 April 2008 (UT

Request

Keep the article focused as a beautiful falls of India that belongs to both Karnataka and Tamil Nadu. Disputed political issues do not belong to the article.Naadapriya (talk) 15:21, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Questions

1. Is this site the location of the proposed project or not?
2. Does the section on the project claim anything against any of the states?
3. Refer to article on Kaveri river where it mentions about the dispute and directs it to another article. What difference do you see here?
4. Does mentioning it here make the falls less beautiful in the minds of the reader?

Awaiting to hear from you. Cheers Wiki San Roze 15:28, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Above everything, this is an encylopedia (or that is what I believe). To talk about the beauty alone is to make it a tourism website. To go in details about the issue is WP:UNDUE which I would agree not to be here. Nevertheless a small section to be removed is unwarranted. Cheers Wiki San Roze 15:32, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

1.Is this site the location of the proposed project or not?

There are many water projects, dams anecuts along Kaveri. Water project can be located any where not necessarily near the falls. The article is about the falls not about speculative surrounding activities. Speculative talks about a project that may or may not happen is beyond the scope of current article.

Reply

Anything that is planned to go on there will be mentioned. Read it and it will say that it is proposed and thats the fact and thats what it states. Wiki San Roze 08:21, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

2.Does the section on the project claim anything against any of the states?

I did not say that project claimed anything against any state. It is proposed by one state and other state still has to either approve or disapprove it. Speculative information about a unilaterally proposed project on a jointly owned location is not Misplaced Pages material.

Reply

Approve or disaprove? O dear Lord! You need to read some news outside Karnataka for God's sake. To start with an old news and a current one , both are WP:RS.

3. Refer to article on Kaveri river where it mentions about the dispute and directs it to another article. What difference do you see here?

Those who wish may discuss there since it is a general article about Kaveri river.

Reply

This is a general article about the Hogenakkal falls. What has made Hogenakkal falls hit the headlines these days? What has caused so much of political debates in specific to Hogenakkal? To deny this is to close one's eyes to reality. Wiki San Roze 08:21, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

One more point to add here. Before you try answering the above question, go have a look at the edit history of the article page. Number of edits till March 2008 was less than 110, but for April (we just half way down it) is nearly 400! What attracted people to edit and in many cases vandalise this page? You may also want to look at the number of hits on this article this month , compared to March , Feb or Jan this year. What brought them HERE? Once again to quote myself To deny this is to close one's eyes to reality. Cheers Wiki San Roze 09:30, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

4.Does mentioning it here make the falls less beautiful in the minds of the reader?

The topic about beauty is an integral part of an article when one writes about any water falls. I guess Misplaced Pages is no exception. Disputed water project information is an unnecessary distraction. Seeing the title of the article readers would like to know about the falls but not about speculative disputed information.

Reply

I don't think you have answered the question. The question was if for eg; you were reading about a wonderful falls in north America and you bump into a section on a proposed water project, would that make you think less of the falls? I don't think this question can be put much more clearer. Wiki San Roze 08:21, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Therefore the section on Water Project need to be removed.Naadapriya (talk) 05:53, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

well ! as far as political dispute is concerned its about the water project alone and not about the location of the Water Falls (though some say) , and this article is not into any political debate as mentioned by Naadapriya , all such disputes have been sorted out with enough concrete references from all sources and the tags been removed , kindly check under which geo-stub it belongs to . and how the article clearly states about its location , i barely find any reference to your query here anywhere in the article , but the political dispute is mentioned only where there is the inclusion about the water project , and it cannot be excluded as it is involved in the water falls . the state govt of the state tht is involved in the water project has decided to wait a bit just to ensure that the chaos would not continue and trouble public life for a meaningless debate and that the issue could be easily tackled once the government has been formed on the other side . moreover Wiki San Roze has clearly answered you and we are waiting for your reply to it .and i dont find any where the beauty of the falls has been affected or damaged , here we have done enough to present an encyclopedic article and making it more beautiful will have no meaning in staying in an encyclopedia but then would have to be sent to an advertising journal --@ the $un$hine . (talk) 03:18, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

There is no dispute about location since the falls is located both in Karnataka and Tamil Nadu states at the border. The project is not a valid information for Misplaced Pages till it is officially approved by both states. Misplaced Pages is about actual facts not about speculative information. No where I mentioned to make the article 'beautiful'!. It is an adjective when referring to the falls. I guess such use is allowed in English!!

In summary the section on water project is not needed in this article.Naadapriya (talk) 06:05, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Your stance is made clear with what yous said above. To quote There is no dispute about location since the falls is located both in Karnataka and Tamil Nadu states at the border.. You didn't even bother to read the first three references provided in the article isnt it? Even Karnataka's tourism department states that it is within Tamil Nadu. As I mentioned earlier the project was agreed. Please get yourself updated. Cheers Wiki San Roze 08:21, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

May be you should also check out other encyclopedias if it is relevant to mention about projects that are carried out in the falls. Check out this entry on Niagara falls on Columbia encyclopedia. 15:20, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

None of the above statements justify the inclusion of section about water project that too which is not officially approved. 'As I mentioned earlier' is not a justification to add a section and noone owns the article. Project needs to be formally agreed by both states and endorsed by central govt before it becomes official.

Oh please! You still haven't bothered to read the news articles I showed you? Once again here it goes again. Please read this and this one too. You can see that both parties agreed and Union Water Resources Ministry has endorsed it. Wiki San Roze 17:10, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

It is requested to read the information carefully. 'Niagara Falls' is also a city.'Hogenakkal_Falls' is about falls not a city. Therefore adding unrelated sections such as 'Water projects' is nothing to do with the article. It should be removedNaadapriya (talk) 16:59, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

You once again failed to read. The link I provided was about the falls, ie Niagara Falls and not Niagara Falls, Ontario. Hope you see the light now. Cheers Wiki San Roze 17:10, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

All know there are twin cities of Niagara Falls associated with falls of Niagara river at the same location. Writing about hydroelectric project is logical. Water projects are not specific to a falls. It can be anywhere along the river.

There is no need to stall the improvement of the article by deviating the topic to something else.

The key issue here is that the section on 'Water Project' that has speculative, unrelated and incorrect information need to be removed from the article.Naadapriya (talk) 07:38, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Naadapriya, I am very sorry to say that you are showing an adament outlook on your stance. I am going to stop repeating myself. Get a third party opinion if you want. The proposed water project is to get water from Hogenakkal falls and that is what it says. Go to WP:AN/I or anywhere you find it fit to ask. Your reply on Niagara falls doesn't make the least sense, because Columbia encyclopedia has three entries on Niagra falls, id est, the water falls, US city and Canadian city. Can't you see that the water falls article talks about the hydroelectric project? That the water falls article is seperated from the cities articles? Do you want to have look at some other falls entries? How more can I explain? To call the infomation there as speculative, unrelated and incorrect is pushing your limits. I have tried so far to assume good faith with you so far and even doing it till now, but for heaven's sake, don't us off the edge. Wiki San Roze 09:41, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

No need to feel sorry when discussions are based on facts. Water is taken from the river and it does not matter whether it is near falls or elsewhere. The water project is not officially approved. Please do not show ownership on the article. There is no official proof that water project is approved by all controlling Govts. It needs to be removedNaadapriya (talk) 15:06, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Naadapriya, it really amusing that you still say that the project is not approved. Oh please! Answer this simple question, did you read what I showed you. What did the Indian express and Hindu entries tell you? It is only the Karnataka govt that disagrees (along with you). You are just trolling and as per what I said earlier am going to ignore you and if you remove the content I will have to take it to a admin. Ciao and next time learn to think out of your shell. Wiki San Roze 15:15, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

O BTW can you show some ref for your edit here? Wiki San Roze 15:19, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

i hope that Naadapriya will reply with proper references which is equal / provides good info to wht she & others who claims for , else it means a waste of time arguing with something which never had / has or will have some meaning , as far the water project is concerned thinking about the other side's claim is baseless and to equally argue with is useless , first the people who claim for their right must realize that any international co-operation / fundings wouldn't happen without proper permission from the state and the central govt & i think tht all those references wht Wiki San Roze is quite ....& more than enough for the talk to state that the falls and the project comes well within tamilnadu and needs no more words nor comments to stress .--@ the $un$hine . (talk) 16:07, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

by seeing all the references she has provided it is quite clear tht she reads some press reports based on some individual (baseless)claims everyday and i wish if the member first confirms weather or not such reports are reliable . else we arguing here is a waste of time .she is arguing here and vandalizing too , so her argument here has no proper reason to be answered . --@ the $un$hine . (talk) 16:18, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Response to Quote What did the Indian express and Hindu entries tell you? It is only the Karnataka govt that disagrees from above comments.

Press do not decide Govt projects. International Govt provides aid to a state but does not make a policy. Since Karnataka Govt which has legal control over the river has not approved (above editors agree), the project is not valid. To date none have shown the proof that the project is officially approved by all concerned Govt authorities. The statements about the project is pure Synthesis based on on going dispute and speculative conclusion drawn by some editors. Therefore it needs to be removed immediately. It may be considered for Misplaced Pages if it gets officially approved by all Govts with endorsement by Govt of India. However still there is another issue. There is no relation between a falls and drinking water project as it was explained earlier. I guess irrigation engineers agree with this.

It is requested editors to keep their comments focused on technical issues not personal attacks. In @ the $un$hine .'s comments who is 'she'. Thanks Naadapriya (talk) 07:22, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

well if you are hurt by any of my comments then i feel sorry for the same . kinly consider my reply to ur Naadapriya comment as a reply to ur comment and in no way directly or indirectly points at you is not any personal attack . i assure you that if the word she hurts u then i wont use it further . regards --@ the $un$hine . (talk) 11:55, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Well well, Naadapriya. First and foremost, if you still going to say that K'taka controls over the falls or the entire river, then you should not be editing this page, because it shows that you are not ready to accept the WP:RS citations shown, including Law Ministry and K'taka own govt sites. So that is the end of it, if you still going to say one more time that the falls is disputed, I will make sure some action is taken on you. Yes this is a warning, and any sane person will see that I have tried my best to assume good faith with you and it YOU who failed to appreciate that. Secondly, we have provided you with reference that all governments have agreed on the project. Once again, if you keep trolling here without showing any citations, you will have to face necessary consequences. Think again before you respond. Cheers Wiki San Roze 14:05, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

yup ! i second Wiki San Roze , if the member trolls here without any citations then necessary action becomes inevitable as Wiki San Roze has said you have to Think again before you respond--@ the $un$hine . (talk) 15:12, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

I did not say that Karnataka solely controls the river. It has legal control over the river because of the origin , length and significant catchment area. The point is very simple. If the project is legally approved then Tamil Nadu will not be waiting for the approval of Karnataka Govt. All references defending the inclusion of water project in the article are mute at this stage. Editors are requested to stop threatening and using irresponsible words as it was done in the earlier comments.Naadapriya (talk) 17:04, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

What says that TN is waiting for aproval of K'taka? Is that another figment of your imagination? AND BTW, it wasnt thretening, its a warning! It is good practice to warn the user before taking action. K'taka having legal control over Kaveri is absurd. Then why do we have a central government? Why was there a tribunal? Why is there a Supreme court? Seriously mate, you have already had your warning. Show us some citations for all your claims and not some google search page pointing to some early version of this wiki entry. 17:17, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Sir/Madam 17:17, before a response is given please identify yourself by signing. Are you one of the above editors. If not your comment may be considered as mute. ThanksNaadapriya (talk) 05:30, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

That was my responce as you would have seen on the history. For some reason the full signature didnt apear. Cheers Wiki San Roze 15:35, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

content dispute

The page is protected until Monday. Please take the opportunity to agree on the scope of the article. —EncMstr (talk) 20:19, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for your help. I guess this would give enough time to avoid edit wars. Cheers Wiki San Roze 20:33, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

The editing freeze—article protection—is not an endorsement of any particular version or view. Since no obvious vandalism nor defamation is present, it's simply The Wrong Version. Refer to those two links for clarification. —EncMstr (talk) 07:55, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

this protection at least will save the article from further vandalism for time being . i didnt get to the EncMstr comment The Wrong Version ,if he refers the article so ....--@ the $un$hine . (talk) 12:04, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Hey EncMstr! You just need to look at the references provided here and how some editors show a blind eye to references. For eg: we have proper WP:RS sources defining which state the waterfalls fall under, but the other party calling it the border is not showing any proper citation. Nevertheless, they take the freedom to remove the citations. This can't be a wrong version. You will just have to look above and below this section to see how a particular user is trolling on this page. That user is even showing google hits as his ref, which is actually pointing to wikipedia's older version of this page?!?!?! I really didn't get what you mean by saying

Can you pleas explain??? Cheers Wiki San Roze 16:12, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Inconsistent lead

The location of falls is in both Chamarajanagara district of Karnatakaand Dharmapuri district of Tamil Nadu . Closest town in Karnataka is Anekal town similar to Dharmapuri, not city of Bangalore. For Misplaced Pages readers it is better to give internationally known reference places, Chennai and Bangalore cities not small towns. The lead needs immediate corrections to be consistent.Naadapriya (talk) 08:56, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

i dont understand why editors dont agree even to central government or supreme court infos . we ( Wiki San Roze & @ the $un$hine . are clear what we are doing and for what are we arguing . kindly read the 6.1 d of the Article 262 & Inter State Disputes relating to Water where it is clearly mentioned the location of the river according to law ministry and these proofs State Tourism development Corporation & state map .--@ the $un$hine . (talk) 12:33, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Naadapriya. I don't think you understand what is WP:RS. I strongly recommend you to go and get yourself to sit and read that stuff said there. If you are still thinking of trolling this page, I will have to take this to WP:AN/I. Stop trolling and start reading.Wiki San Roze 13:06, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Answer is very simple. If the falls area solely belonged to Tamil Nadu then central Govt would not have agreed to resurvey the area to determine the ownership. The falls area belongs to both Tamil Nadu and Karnataka State. Note above quoted link http://lawmin.nic.in/ncrwc/finalreport/v2b3-6.htm%7Clawninistry does not exist. Also Tourism Dept is interested to show the best parts of falls irrespective of which state it belongs to. It does not decide the ownershipNaadapriya (talk) 17:16, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Note that you will have to use some reason before you check a link. This link works. And BTW your argument on tourism site doesn't make sense. Yes, K'taka will still mention it although it is in TN, that is what we are saying too. So according to your point, YOU decide the ownership, is it? Wiki San Roze 17:19, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Haha, do you read? Read the news links you get with your search. What is the survey about? It is about the ISLAND, and NOT about the waterfalls. O dear o Lord. How many times do we ask you to read. Well, lets see if you give an apology for your stuborn stance as a last resort to AGF, before a complaint is launched. Wiki San Roze 17:24, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

None of the links quoted in the previous comment prove that a particular state owns the complete falls location. Many news agencies still report as of April 03, 2008 that there is a legal dispute on the issue.. Misplaced Pages is about existing facts not about speculative information. The falls area belongs to both Tamil Nadu and Karnataka states. Otherwise Central Govt would not have accepted to resurvey the area. The lead needs modification to reflect correct information. Please note that this editor is neither defending actions of Karnataka state nor opposing the acts of Tamil Nadu state. His interest is to defend accurate information for Misplaced Pages readers. The incorrect lead need to be modified.Naadapriya (talk) 06:18, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

All your queries are already answered, just to list them out:

• the dispute is on an unnamed island near the falls
• the falls itself falls under the TN teritory as per Union law ministry
• all projects planned will be mentioned, since both parties agreed on the project and the project is kept on hold to resolve the island issue and not because either party oppose the project itself. Reference on approval and on island survey issue are already provided.
• examples of projects provided were produced using Niagara falls entry on[REDACTED] and also on other encyclopedia, when opposed to the city entries.
• your WP:OR that just because TN asked for K'taka's aproval makes the falls fall under K'taka teritory is nothing but more than laughable. According to your logic, just because K'taka asked for TN's aproval for Bangalore drinking water project will make Bangalore part of TN? lols..

No more trolling will be tolerated and with this I shall stop answering your BS, since its just wasting my precious[REDACTED] time (which I hardly get between my work). You shall be replied to ONLY if you raise any sensible issues. If you start reverting and vandalising then you shall reep the consequences at WP:AN/I. Yes, a warning with all due respect. FYI I already have a feed back from a non-Indian admin on this issue, since I wanted to know if I am the one being stuborn here. Ciao Wiki San Roze 06:54, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

None of the above references justify the inclusion of non-existing water project in the article and conclusive statements about the ownership of land that is under dispute as per all states and Central Govt. For example, one reference says had deployed hundreds of police and forest personnel in the disputed area to prevent untoward incidents. The reasons for the dispute is reported in many articles

It is unfortunate that uncivil language is used in above comment in spite of request to stop personal attacks. Naadapriya (talk) 15:28, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Why not Rfc? Get a third opinion, since you are the only one wanting to remove it? BTW, warning a user before taking action is not uncivil. It is the recommended procedure. There is no personal attack there. By unwarrantedly accusing me, it is you who is resorting to personal attacks. I have taken the discussion to your talk page because I dont want the troll to go on here in this article talk page. It would be better if we can solve the issue amicably. But having said that, if you keep going on with your stuborn stance, I will be compelled to go to WP:ANI. Cheers Wiki San Roze 15:41, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Section on Water Project need to be removed

Other editors are welcome to post their opinions. As it was justified, the section on Water project need to be removed. Restatements of reasons already provided are:

1)The water project does not exist and as shown in discussions with reference there is an on going dispute between two states about it. Even the references quoted by other editors defending the section say that. Therefore water project is not a part of the[REDACTED] article.

2) As it was mentioned earlier, it is logical to talk about the hydroelectric project since it needs the kinetic energy generated in the river at the falls. Water for drinking can be drawn from the river at different locations. There is no relation between a water falls and water project.

To date none of the comments by other editors contradicted above statements with objective evidences. Except above two issues, topics mentioned in previous comments by other editors are not related to the present discussion. Therefore the section on water project has to be removed from the article immediately. When water project becomes a reality, a separate article may be written on it.Naadapriya (talk) 06:05, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

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