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Revision as of 18:01, 15 May 2008 editKlausness (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Rollbackers2,400 edits →arbitrary section break 2← Previous edit Revision as of 18:02, 15 May 2008 edit undoAlkivar (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users14,533 edits →Encyclopedia Dramatica: seriously wikipedia what the fuck are you doing? pull your heads out of your assesNext edit →
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** '''Comment''' I should point out that most of the people !voting delete either are the subject of an article on ED or are affiliated with someone who does. This would be a serious ] and these people should recuse themselves from the discussion. In the least these people's comments should be discounted. ] (]) 18:00, 15 May 2008 (UTC) ** '''Comment''' I should point out that most of the people !voting delete either are the subject of an article on ED or are affiliated with someone who does. This would be a serious ] and these people should recuse themselves from the discussion. In the least these people's comments should be discounted. ] (]) 18:00, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
* '''Keep'''. This smacks of ]. Clearly a notable web site. ] (]) 18:01, 15 May 2008 (UTC) * '''Keep'''. This smacks of ]. Clearly a notable web site. ] (]) 18:01, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

* You fuckers got me out of retirement for this vote. '''Keep''' just because we hate something doesnt mean we delete it. Else we'd not have ] or ] articles (yes thats right I Godwinned this bitch). Trivial coverage in one source ok i'd buy that argument if that was the only source... but trivial coverage in 15 sources, and an in depth article or two from a few is more than sufficient bar to pass for notability purposes. Find me non trivial coverage of the president of ] oh wait you cant do that either... Seriously way to ruin any potential historical use of this site in 50 years. This is the shit that made me leave. &nbsp;]] <span style="font-size:130%; background:yellow; border:1px solid black;">&#x2622;</span> 18:02, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Revision as of 18:02, 15 May 2008

Encyclopedia Dramatica

Peace dove with olive branch in its beakPlease stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.
AfDs for this article:
Encyclopedia Dramatica (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

Fails WP:NOTABILITY, WP:WEB. Nothing more than an advert for a site which co-ordinates vandalism and attacks Wikipedians and adds little if any encyclopedic value to wikipedia, WP:DENY. Has a few links but they all seem to be trivial coverage or mentions. Trivial or incidental coverage of a subject by secondary sources is not sufficient to establish notability. The depth of coverage of the subject by the source must be considered. which is clearly noted in multiple notability guidelines. Hu12 (talk) 01:15, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

  • Keep. Has been mentioned in a wide variety of news outlets including The New York Times. At some points in the development of the current version of the article, the reference list was actually nearly as long, or maybe longer, than the article itself. Its attacks on Misplaced Pages and Wikipedians are utterly irrelevant; WP:NPOV requires that we cover those who hate us, and/or that we hate, in an evenhanded manner regardless. Opposition to this article seems based more on fear and loathing than on logic. *Dan T.* (talk) 01:21, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete Still fails notability test in my mind, mostly trival mentions, no direct coverage. Really a wiki-only phenomenon. MBisanz 01:24, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Strong keep - Please explain how the site fails WP:NOTABILITY and WP:WEB. It has a higher Alexa rating than Uncyclopedia. The article isn't an advert in any way, refering to the site as "coarse, offensive, and frequently obscene" (something which would never be allowed in many articles) And by the way, the fact that the site attacks Wikipedians is irrelevant, as WP:DENY isn't policy, and doesn't preclude Misplaced Pages's goal to be an embodiment of all human knowledge. We don't delete the article on Al-Quaida because it gives unwanted attention to terrorists.--Urban Rose 01:26, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • ED has a series of pages which contain vulgar mocking of several WP editors, and the site is generally highly critical of WP. Thus many editors get up in arms whenever the subject arises. Z00r (talk) 03:02, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • DELETE Must I explain to you exactly how this site sexually humiliates our editors? I did not want to post here with the terrorist sympathizers, but you forced my hand. Many of their latest articles attack our admin corp. I won't link to it because as of right now it is lesser known, since no one really reads ED anymore because they have realised that doing so aligns them with cyberterrorists. Does that make you feel good? Aiding and abetting sexual humiliation and cyber stalking? Or are you under the impression that a 💕 just builds itself, regardless of whether or not we have editors? I am part of the silent majority and our voice will be heard. If that offends you in some way, I suggest you take a deep look into your soul and find out if you have any empathy for another living, breathing human being. Are you one of these "free speech" nutcases that thinks it is ok to deface the Virgin Mary with excrement or something? Because that is what Encyclopedia Dramatica amounts to. The Voice Of Your Heart (talk) 01:33, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
... Sorry, you're calling people who write for that site TERRORISTS? If you present a reasonable rationale for the removal of an article, ED will take it down. I am, actually, one of those "free speech nutcases" that believes people have the right to say what they will without religious fanatics like yourself telling me I'm a hateful sinner for not believing in Jesus and behaving like a "good Christian." What the hell kind of argument was that, anyway? And quite frankly, the articles on some of the admin are healthy to have. Sure, they're crude, rude, and lewd. But you know, I like knowing that some admin are the scariest power-mongers to ever grace the internet. Keeps me from running afoul of them, and I can keep contributing to Misplaced Pages in peace. Plus, it's funny. If you don't think it's funny, don't read it, for the love of Ducks. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean we can't have it. This article is a Keeper. Howa0082 (talk) 01:44, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Comment (To "The voice of your heart") I'm sorry to say this, but people like you shouldn't really be editing Misplaced Pages. You make it blatantly obvious that your only interest in voting "delete" is to further your own personal agenda against that site, not to improve the encyclopedia.--Urban Rose
Comment (To "The voice of your heart") You have to be kidding me. Unquestioning loyalty to admins is a terrible stance to take. We are all human, and we all make mistakes. People who are ostensibly entrusted with a common public good like wikipedia should be expected to live up to high standards. Are you seriously going to start defending Erik Möller and how it's ok to advocate for pedophilia now? - DLB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.23.212.107 (talk) 04:38, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep. Notable, rather notorious website. Reliable sources demonstrate notability - here's one that devotes an entire article to profiling the site. The article is hardly an advertisement - it's a standard attempt to describe a web service that happens to be antagonistic towards Misplaced Pages. Refusing to print an article about something just because it upsets Wikipedians is somewhere between sour grapes and censorship. If you're going to understand Internet culture, this is a signifigant piece of it.Wikidemo (talk) 01:35, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Also, Speedy close. Articles ought not to be nominated for deletion while they are fully protected. First, that lets administrators game the system to have the upper hand. The only way to nominate for deletion while under protection is to use the administrative privilege of editing protected articles, so that's using admin tools in a content dispute. Second, the normal process of an article up for deletion is that if there are deficiencies in sourcing, notability, relevance, etc., they can be fixed through the editing process before a decision is made. That can't happen here, so the legitimacy of any result to delete would be in question. Wikidemo (talk) 01:35, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Non-admins can nominate for deletion by placing the AFD notice on the talk page. That is considered sufficient given page protection. MBisanz 01:37, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
On the wikigaming front I'll also note that this passed a deletion nomination less than two months ago. What has changed since then or is this just a second spin of the wheel? Wikidemo (talk) 02:00, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete (edit conflict x2), as the one who cleaned up the sources earlier today, almost every source there only mentions Dramatica in passing. Two just define it. I don't think Fortuny's use of the site automatically conveys notability on it, only on himself. If he'd done the same on his personal blog, we wouldn't be allowing an article on that blog. Unless someone can produce some true, significant coverage, I just don't see how this site meets WP:WEB, and why we should have an article on a site that's blacklisted from even having its URL posted anywhere. And, as a side note, I have no idea if ED is an attack site or not, never go to it and have never really heard of it before today. So I'm basing my comments purely on the article and its sources. Collectonian (talk) 01:36, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Your "blacklisted URL" argument only suggests that the URL should be removed from the blacklist, not that the article should be deleted.--Urban Rose 01:50, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
A number of blacklisted sites have articles about them.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikidemo (talk • contribs) 21:00, May 14, 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep. Thoroughly cited; it would be a violation of WP:NPOV to pretend it doesn't exist, and despite the hassles we've had with it, we cover much worse. I don't believe in the "borderline notability means we get to toss neutrality out the window and decide on the basis of IDONTLIKEIT" style arguments for deleting it, and I don't believe that its notability is as borderline as proponents of that argument make out. And as we've just hashed all this out at DRV I don't see what is to be accomplished from doing it all again so soon, so I'm tempted to advocate not just a keep but a speedy keep. —David Eppstein (talk) 01:36, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete per Collectonian regarding the sourcing issue: fails WP:WEB. Anything Misplaced Pages-related tends to receive enhanced attention in Misplaced Pages discussions. Durova 01:41, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete. Sources mention ED only in passing - cobbling together lots of trivial mentions does not create the level of sourcing needed for an article. Not having an article does not mean pretending that ED doesn't exist, it just reflects that the site doesn't have the depth of third party coverage necessary to meet our inclusion criteria. Needs more extensive coverage before we should have an article about it - not more sources, just one or two more that are actually about ED, rather than ones that simply refer to it's existence. WjBscribe 01:52, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
What about this one?http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=459249 That's not just in passing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikidemo (talk • contribs)
It's debatable whether even that source, which provides more detail than any other we have links to, actually meets the requirement of substantial coverage. You could easily describe this source as providing only a brief summary of the nature of the content or the publication of Internet addresses and site, meaning even this source doesn't meet the requirements of WP:WEB 1 (3). And you need not one but at least two sources that provide "non-trivial" amounts of coverage. WP:WEB demands coverage in multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent Noroton (talk) 02:18, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • As much as I dislike the subject, there was a clear consensus to recreate at DRV. There is sourcing. Extremely weak keep. Corvus cornixtalk 02:01, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment - Fully protecting an article going through AFD defeats part of the purpose of AFD - to allow improvements to the article to demonstrate why it should be kept. Unprotect. Exxolon (talk) 02:02, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep The notability argument keeps being thrown around, but look at Uncyclopedia's press coverage. It's a bunch of trivial mentions, mostly from other wikis. But that article isn't constantly being put up for deletion. Sometimes notability falls outside the "reliable sources" realm, especially when we have statistics from places like Alexa that show it is a significant site. -Kevman459 (talk) 02:03, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Speedy close without prejudice to relist after the article is unprotected. How are editors to improve the article, use the ediprotected tag? This will surely slow things down for this timed debate. Regards, NonvocalScream (talk) 02:04, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

  1. Neva, Chonin. "Sex and the City", San Francisco Chronicle, Hearst Communications, 17 September 2006, pp. p.20.—A trivial mention in a roundup of cyber-prank news stories.
  2. "Privacy", Warren's Washington Internet Daily, 12 September 2006.—Couldn't find online, but judging by what it's cited for, trivial as above.
  3. Dee, Jonathan (1 July 2007). All the News That's Fit to Print Out. Magazine p. 5, 34. The New York Times.—A trivial mention in an article about Misplaced Pages.
  4. Davies, Shaun (8 May 2008). Critics point finger at satirical website. National Nine News.—Not very long and certainly not indepth, but finally, an article about ED.
  5. Douglas, Nick (18 January 2008). What The Hell Are 4chan, ED, Something Awful, And 'b'?. Gawker.com.—Is Gawker.com a reliable source? In response to a reader query, this piece gives a brief into to four different websites, of which ED is one.
  6. "2 Do: Monday, December 26", RedEye Edition, Chicago Tribune, 16 December 2005, pp. p. 2.—Couldn't find online. One of four sources used to cite the assertion that ED has been described as "coarse, offensive and frequently obscene".
  7. Mitchell, John. "Megabits and Pieces: The latest teen hangout", North Adams Transcript, 20 May 2006.—Ditto.
  8. Hind, John. (5 June 2005). What's the word?. The Observer.—A trivial mention in an article explaining "TL;DR".
  9. Cassel, David (8 March 2007). John Edwards' Virtual Attackers Unmasked. AlterNet.—Trivial mention in an article about an e-terrorist group.
  10. Anonymous Protests Outside Scientology Sites. Londonist (11 February 2009).— Trivial mention in an article about anti-Scientology protests; for perspective, www.whyaretheydead.net and www.xenu.net are also linked.
  11. Man Posed As a Woman to Elicit Personal Ad Responses. MSNBC. 12 September 2006.—I wasn't watching TV that day, but see #1 above.
  12. Dibbel, Julian (18 January 2008). Mutilated Furries, Flying Phalluses: Put the Blame on Griefers, the Sociopaths of the Virtual World. Wired.—Trivial mention (two, to be fair) in an article about internet culture.
  13. Anonymous operation leads to pedophile conviction. Global Television Network.—This isn't actually a reference so much as a hint that one might exist. See also #1.

After all that, I can't see a demonstration of notability. Only one source really writes about ED, and that piece really is very short. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 02:08, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

This is a fallacious argument. The reason that the article does not have the best sources available is because it was undeleted yesterday and is protected so noone can improve it. SheffieldSteel should argue on the basis of the reliable sources which can be found to demonstrate the notability of this topic currently, and not the ones which are currently on a write-protected article. The whole point of wikis is that the community can improve badly written or sourced articles, it is fundamentally unfair to judge this article while it is protected. 86.31.102.215 (talk) 10:23, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
It is very likely that these are the only sources that exist, given that large numbers of people help to improve articles related to Misplaced Pages (for obvious reasons) and so there will have been a much bigger effort to find sources for this article. Yes it was undeleted yesterday, but people have been trying to get it undeleted for months and have performed a near-exhaustive search for sources in that time. If you know of any other sources then list them here - this page isn't protected. Hut 8.5 13:22, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete per above. I also see no major demonstration of notability. seicer | talk | contribs 02:17, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete as per nom, Collectonian and Sheffield Steel. Looking over the sourcing, only the Nine News source gives anything close to "substantial" coverage, and you need more under WP:WEB or WP:N. Provide more sourcing, change my !vote/opinion. Noroton (talk) 02:22, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
    • Additional comment: Seven sentences plus examples. That's all the Nine News article has. And they're short sentences. I'd call that approaching substantial, but if that's the best there is, there isn't enough. WP:N clearly requires at least two, the way that guideline is currently written. WP:WEB requires the same. Noroton (talk) 02:45, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete Not quite notable enough yet. I said to allow relisting at DRV, and now it is. If it had another 1-2 sources like the MSN, I would say keep. Also, more AFDs are at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Encyclopædia Dramatica (3rd nomination) and Misplaced Pages:Votes for deletion/Encyclopedia Dramatica. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 02:24, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Permanent Keep... Sweet fuck! I'd say keep! It brings the drama to the internets... The war between TOW and ED is still going on... TL:DR --Creamy! 02:25, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
    This is a common misconception. ED does not hate TOW, we just have issues with some of the hypocrisies shown by members who have been entrusted with sysop status (re: Sceptre, MONGO). Quite a few ED sysops and users (myself included) constructively add things to the wikipedia project. It's the disgust with the factionalism and political alliances that distort objective records of people and events on this "collective" project that we find objection to. We do not represent ourselves to be anything short of ridiculous, your pretentious masquerade as some sort of objective collective of 'all human knowledge' is both laughable and sad at the same time considering your current structure and often idiotic bickering. - DLB
    The "articles" on Phaedriel and Sceptre would tend not to support your characterization. Corvus cornixtalk 17:43, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete. per my nom. Sadly, those arguing for the value of material that is substandard, inadequate and unencyclopedic and suggesting that such articles be kept regardless of those facts damages the credibility and future success of Misplaced Pages. Unfortunatly Trivial or incidental coverage of a subject by secondary sources is not sufficient to establish notability. The depth of coverage of the subject by the source must be considered. which is clearly noted in the notability guidelines. Self-promotion and product placement are not the routes to having an encyclopaedia article. Content that does not belong in an encyclopedia is removed.--Hu12 (talk) 02:37, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep: It exists. It is popular. It is moar popular than Uncyclopedia. See here.--Piepie (talk) 02:31, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep: Just because some Misplaced Pages Editors find the content offensive does not mean it does not exist. I can type in any bizzare unheard of term and bring up an article on Misplaced Pages, but an incredibly popular human website deserves to be deleted because it 'offends'? How about GodHatesFags.com? I demand Westboro Baptist Church articles be deleted because they OFFEND me! Way to go, you tools. - Anonymous — 68.101.8.94 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Keep per nontrivial source http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=459249 Z00r (talk) 02:52, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep. Per Corvus Cornix. It passed a DRV. There was consensus to recreate. It has sources. RyanGerbil10(Kick 'em in the Dishpan!) 02:54, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep' Notable. Can we please go at least a month or two without having to slog through this tired old discussion? At a certain point, constantly AFDing or DRVing the same article become blatant pointy disruption... --ElKevbo (talk) 03:02, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep. The bias shown by some editors is horrifying. This site clearly meets WP:WEB, anyone saying otherwise is not fooling anyone. Please stop gaming the system by making absurd claims and try to back them up by throwing around links to WP:EPTBOP (Essay Pretending To Be Official Policy); it's rather annoying as I have to follow all the links only to find out it's an essay (not policy, not even a recommendation) that is only loosely related to the subject at hand. Misplaced Pages is not censored for anyone, no matter how offensive the subject might be for you and me. Deleting Encyclopedia Dramatica's article won't magically remove ED from the Internet. Misplaced Pages is supposed to be an encyclopedia with the sum of all human knowledge; removing content just because the large majority of Misplaced Pages's editors strongly dislikes the subject in question is completely unacceptable and makes a mockery out of this project's goals. I'd like to point out that Misplaced Pages projects in other languages have no problems whatsoever with keeping an article about Encyclopedia Dramatica, there are never any "trolls" disrupting the article. In fact, most of the "disruptions" this article suffers from consist of clear wikigaming (removing sources, starting disputes over trivial matters, etc) from people who, for some reason, can't sleep at night as long as we keep a completely innocuous article on some website popular among some Internet subculutures. Please, grow up. Misplaced Pages is not a MMORPG, you don't win experience points every time you get an article you hate deleted. On another note, I'd also like to point out that this isn't the 2nd nomination for this article, it's the 5th. First nomination, (delete) second nomination (keep), third nomination (no consensus, keep), fourth nomination (delete). -Mpontes (talk) 03:05, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Honesty. Thank you for reading between the lines and trying to be objective. Honestly this whole situation has gotten rather ridiculous with the petty vendettas many editors have blatently flaunted. -DLB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.135.183.190 (talk) 06:03, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
And to clarify my point; The article was restored yes, after there was more agreement to do so (opposed to leave it deleted). The chances of this discussion actually resulting in delete are very slim, if at all existent. - Rjd0060 (talk) 03:18, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep Article meets criteria for inclusion, notability has been established, and the subject is covered in reliable sources. When that is the case, we don't get to exclude something simply because we don't like it. ED exists, and a version of the article has been authored that meets Misplaced Pages's criteria. Let's move on. - auburnpilot talk 03:25, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Procedural Keep wasn't there something on the talk page saying to wait at least a month before trying to AfD this? Keeping my opinions to myself until such a time that a valid AfD comes up. JuJube (talk) 03:26, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
    • Closing comment on the DRV. "Regarding listing this on AFD, I don't see a clear consensus here that this needs to be done immediately, but nor is there a consensus that AFD should not be used. ". DRV is not AFD, assuming they are is incorrect--Hu12 (talk) 03:29, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep per AuburnPilot. VegaDark (talk) 03:36, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep, in my own words at the DRV: passes the requirements, no more no less. –– Lid 03:43, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Keep Even aside from this article easily meeting policy requirements, it's really bad form to keep renomming an article over and over and over in hopes that one of the AFDs will actually stick. Misplaced Pages isn't censored, and if the website offends you, don't go there! Jtrainor (talk) 03:48, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

  • Keep as it seems to pass WP:WEB. There are articles that discuss it, in depth. The entire news9 MSN article is devoted to ED. It doesn't make sense to hold ED to a tougher notability standard than every other article simply because we don't like the site itself. Despite what the nom and delete votes say, if we have numerous incidental coverage in addition to at least one FULL RELIABLE SOURCE ARTICLE devoted to site it question, notability really should be considered established. Bfigura 03:49, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment This is the worst possible timing of an AfD I have ever seen. The consensus on DRV was very strong and the only thing you are going to achieve here is another strong consensus to keep. EconomicsGuy (talk) 04:19, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep This article is relevant wiki content - I even knew about this popular site long before reading the said wiki article.Gregg Potts (talk) 05:00, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep, I think this is already notable enough by far. JIP | Talk 05:02, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep because it seems that a lot of this is just a general sense of hurt being translated into a decidedly biased AFD. There are various terms which could be used to describe this move, but I will say that the reaction more or less verifies claims to notability. --Alex-jon (talk) 05:05, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • KEEP: notable, higher alexa rank than other websites that have wikipedia articles. dont let past problems between wikipedia and encyclopedia dramatica stand in the way of WP:NPOV. its notable. - Badmachine (talk) 05:15, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep Why are we having this deletion discussion just a week after consensus was established here: Misplaced Pages:Deletion_review/Log/2008_May_8? As it stands, the site is notable, even if the sources are trivial, the number of sources is enough to make it notable. --Hdt83 05:27, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete, notability is not clearly established, and on top of that it's a attack site devoted to trolling Wikipedians. Even though our internet culture coverage is relatively well-developed, there's innumerable things people interested in that stuff could be working on that wouldn't involve giving more attention and visibility to this vicious little website. Why all the energy expended on this one topic, then? It seems likely that the primary drive behind this is coming from ED members, who of course would be doing so purely with the intent of trolling us, to stir up "drama". Delete this and then let's forbid anyone from bringing this up again for at least five years, by which time ED will hopefully be gone and forgotten. Everyking (talk) 05:27, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • You are obviously projecting your (ill informed) bias onto this article. ED is not 'devoted to trolling wikipedians' despite what you may think. Only the ones who abuse their influence and power. You can go ahead and go on and on about how 'vulgur' or 'vicious' ED is, but all you are doing in the end is painting yourself as prejudiced. ED meets WP:WEB. This has ceased to be a discussion, and has devolved into people airing their dirty laundry, and wanking about how ED is the internet incarnation of Beelzebub. - DLB — 71.135.183.190 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. The preceding unsigned comment was added at 05:54, 15 May 2008 (UTC) (UTC).
  • Keep. The subjects notability is established by multiple reliable sources and most of the "delete" votes are just rants about how ED is a "vile attack site" and "trolls". Continuously resending something you don't like for AFD is, in my perhaps irrelevant opinion, disruption. Nobody of Consequence (talk) 05:41, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
    • What about bringing this issue back up repeatedly in spite of past consensus and with complete insensitivity to the feelings of other Wikipedians? That isn't disruption, I suppose? In my opinion, it's easier to argue disruption when the people whose actions are in question actually intend to disrupt the project—do you think it's disruption to oppose people who are trying to disrupt the website? Everyking (talk) 05:50, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
      • No one is trying to disrupt the project. This whole recent incarnation of the ED article was brought about from agitation within the wikipedia ranks, not ED. It has notable 3rd party sources now, and has had to jump through more hoops than most articles due to its controversial nature. Give it a rest. -DLB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.135.183.190 (talk) 05:57, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep, (edit conflict) and I'd like to note that not a single Delete vote has even begun to approach valid deletion criteria. We've had "It's just not notable", "I don't like it", "It offends me"... only argument that has even been valid has been that none of the sources discuss ED in great detail, and that argument was countered by the sheer number of sources that mention ED. McJeff (talk) 05:59, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep WP:IDONTLIKEIT is NOT a reason to delete. Its sourced and passes WP:WEB. This nom skirts quite close to WP:POINT. LegoTech·(t)·(c) 06:01, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete as I said I would opine when closing the DRV for this. (I closed as "recreate" since that was what the consensus was for, but I did disagree with the outcome.) Basically, I agree with WJBscribe's analysis of the sources here, I think the mentions here and there illustrate some smatterings of notability, but nothing really concrete. While I disagree with Everyking's argument that the website's attack agenda against Misplaced Pages should cause us to delete the article, I think that discriminating between real informational websites and satircal websites is fair. If this were a real informational website, an article based on smatterings of information might be useful enough to justify inclusion since coverage of real informational websites is helpful to academia, but for a satirical website I don't think smatterings is a strong enough basis for an article. Sjakkalle (Check!) 06:03, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • This strikes me an awful lot like saying that articles about websites we like have one standard to meet and articles about websites that we don't have a different standard. The content of the site shouldn't be a factor indetermining notability. To do so would seem to run counter to WP:NPOV, passing judgment on what content is good and what is bad. -Chunky Rice (talk) 16:35, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • It's unfortunate that I'm going to have to support Keep. This is a horrible website that I would love to see die in a sea of fire, but it passes our inclusion criteria. -- Ned Scott 06:25, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep I may not have a million and a half edits on Misplaced Pages, but I still think that this kind of censorship is very un-Wiki-like. Go on all you may regarding lack of definitive sources, but truthfully I've seen stubs (using the "random article") that are ten times worse and are completely unverified or verified by poor sources. If Misplaced Pages is truly to be an encyclopedia, it cannot simply skip over a subject simply because it is unpleasant, insulting, or just plain dumb. Yes, I've read ED, I lurk there quite a bit as I find lots of their articles quite entertaining. I think the article on Wiki is perfectly sensible - it states very plainly that ED is a shock-wiki - and that this AfD is simply a knee-jerk reaction due to some bad blood in the past between the two sites. Misplaced Pages should take an NPOV and remember that, even if ED doesn't look favorably on Wiki, NPOV states that Wiki should take an objective standpoint and not get into an AfD pissing match. My two cents... Froginabox (talk) 06:29, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep for obvious aforementioned reasons. This Web site is certainly notable. Just because it offends certain Misplaced Pages sysops does _not_ mean that it needs to be excluded from Misplaced Pages. Jameth (talk) 06:42, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Strong keep - Notable project and well sourced article about it. Fact that some people from English Misplaced Pages hate ED is not valid reason for deletion. --Dezidor (talk) 06:45, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep It passes the criteria for notability, and I think it would be good to realize how the naysayers are basically putting bullseyes all over themselves. Irk Come in for a drink! 06:46, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep That the site "co-ordinates vandalism and attacks Wikipedians" is largely irrelevant. The sources seem sufficient to me. Also, AfD is not a battle of attrition. Maxamegalon2000 06:51, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep I believe the coverage in reliable sources is sufficient to establish notability. Davewild (talk) 07:05, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete on the DRV I voted to relist because there was one source treating ED by itself. However, reading WP:WEB, I see that it says "The content itself has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works", so it doesn't really pass it, and the re-creation was premature. ED needs a bit more coverture before satisfying notability requirement. --Enric Naval (talk) 07:33, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep. Has more than trivial coverage in most of the sources, and is the subject of one of them. IDONTLIKEIT is not a valid argument in favor of deletion. NPOV must be restored, and we have to stop this knee-jerk reactionism to do so. That means no more covering it up and hiding it, which is against everything we're for. The selfish actions of a few notable editors who happen to have pages on ED should NOT be able to be fuel for keep its recreation from happening. Celarnor 08:16, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete just too trivial with no real importance outside wikipedia itself. All the reasons that Corey Worthington should not have been kept apply hear. A mention in the NEWS does not make a subject, person or thing notable. No doubt wikipedia will see this kept and the return of Corey Worthington. I'm still think it and its ilk should be deleted though. David D. (Talk) 08:20, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
You may want to have another look at general notability guidelines and WEB notability guidelines. Both specifically state non-trivial coverage in news is exactly what makes a subject notable. Celarnor 08:22, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete - how on earth does this site pass WP:WEB ? Fails criteria 2 (no awards for either the site or its content), Fails criteria 3 (it's not carried independently by a respected medium) and , Fails the remaining criteria. User:SheffieldSteel has shown that the media mentions are almost entirely trivial and/or peripheral. Beyond trivial mentions of them simply existing I cannot see that the required multiple reliable sources have written primarily about them. - Peripitus (Talk) 08:52, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Weak keep Many of the sources are weak, but the Craigslist ad controversy, the ninemsn link, and the passing reference in a Misplaced Pages-themed NY Times article seem to squeak it (barely) into notability. JeremyMcCracken (talk) (contribs) 09:01, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep - The sourcing is quite decent, meeting WP:N/WP:WEB to reasonable standard, and in a broader sense notability is fairly obvious (considering traffic statistics, WP:SET and so forth). I certainly concur with the spirit of WP:DENY, but nuking articles in direct response to misconduct doesn't deny recognition -- it affords it, while simultaneously setting a very bad precedent. — xDanielx /C\ 09:23, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Speedy Close - Article is protected from editing, Deletion review is inappropriate at this time. --129.67.162.133 (talk) 10:16, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

arbitrary section break

  • Keep, meets WP:WEB, namely criteria 1 ("The content itself has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the site itself"). The North Adams Transcript (look it up here, but you need to pay), ninemsn, Wired and Gawker articles are all non-trivial, at the very least. Please don't speedy close this AFD, allow the discussion to runs its course so nobody can complain. Neıl ☎ 10:21, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
ninemsn, Wired and Gawker articles are all non-trivial, at the very least. No, Neil, it's not the nature of the source organization that has to be non-trivial, it's the amount of coverage that has to be non-trivial. See WP:N#General notability guideline, especially footnote 2. A trivial amount of coverage is what these sources gave to ED (except for MSN/Nine News, and while that's not trivial, it only borders on being "substantial"). See my comment below for what I found in your North Adams Transcript article. Noroton (talk) 14:46, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

DELETE : ED is a vehicle for criminal harassment and actual monetary extortion! see here:

http://girlvinyl.livejournal.com/461933.html

ED frequently has "articles" that are used only for harassment and feature nonpublic personal information, such as resumes, street addresses and other contact information, unauthorized DMCA infringing pictures, etc all in a context of libel. And ED "support" tacitly endorses these illegal activities and gross invasions of privacy, defamation, etc.Em otter (talk) 14:44, 15 May 2008 (UTC) This template must be substituted.

  • Keep Although I thought it should go when it was up for Deletion Review, I have to grudgingly admit that the current article looks like a proper article, with refs. Even if there are not many articles discussing ED in depth, it gets quite a number of trivial mentions, which add up to some good sourcing. Merkin's mum 13:41, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep. The current status of this article is such that it satisfied the notability requirements for online sites. The content on the site aside, this would be a no brainer, and objectionable content does not equate to "no article." Xymmax So let it be done 14:36, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment: That North Adams Transcript source: So I read Neil's comment above (10:21, 15 May) calling the North Adams Transcript source, "non-trivial", and I said to myself, "I'm actually going to spend money to buy this article and confirm that there is another source of non-trivial coverage of ED. It's the least I can do to advance civilization." And so I committed $2.95 of my hoarded wealth to buying this non-trivial source for the wealth of knowledge it will bring me about Encyclopedia Dramatica. The entire coverage from the North Adams Transcript: "Encyclopedia Dramatica () really cuts to the chase with a long, blunt, vulgar essay on MySpace that is pretty much on target. Drama, they assert, is what fuels the interaction of teens and drama, obviously, transfers to any online venture that teens make themselves part of." There follows a one-sentence quote from the ED article about MySpace. Two sentences and a quote. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. That's the definition of "trivial coverage", Neil. And that's $2.95 I'll never get to spend again. Noroton (talk) 14:38, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete - Per nom, and also this page has caused alot of drama since it was created (edit wars and the discussions in this nom, for instance). Also, I'm very sure this article is just going to attract more ED trolls, and I can already see quite a few in this page. --AAA! (AAAA) 14:40, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Weak delete per Sheffield Steel's excellent analysis above. The only reliable, non-trivial coverage based on my own Google News and Google News archive searches was last week's ninemsn article. ninemsn is an Australian joint venture of MSN and the Nine Network television network and it's used widely as a reference elsewhere on Misplaced Pages. Personally, I think this 297-word article, combined with the other passing references, put the subject just under our threshold of notability, however I suspect others may look at it and decide it's just enough. If another news article like it pops up, then I say give this subject an article but until then, delete. --A. B. 15:06, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete - fails WP:WEB. Not need for non trivial mentions in reliable printed sources. Unless more come up, delete.

Most of the mentions given are not very specific to ED, mostly just concerning web culture with a trivial mention of ED. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scanna (talk • contribs) 15:09, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

  • Keep per ninemsn article which is very, very clearly not non-trivial. --Smashville 15:17, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
    • And WP:N and WP:WEB very, very clearly require more than one non-trivial source. Wheres the other one? Noroton (talk) 15:24, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
      • This is ridiculous, we are arguing like little children about triviality and non-triviality again and again... yes, there is for example the Gawker.com article - but you are immediately going to reply "HA! That's not non-trivial enough!"--Have a nice day. Running 15:35, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
      • WP:N and WP:WEB are guidelines, not policies, so technically they don't require anything. --Smashville 15:56, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
        • No, they require common sense if you want to make an occasional exception. I'm open to common-sense exceptions for the good of the 'pedia, but I haven't seen a good common-sense-exception argument here. Noroton (talk) 16:29, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
          • I think that if you have one really in-depth source and dozens of trivial mentions from highly notable sources, a reasonable argument can be made that notability is established. And that's all WP:WEB is, really: a guideline to help figure out whether or not an article is notable. -Chunky Rice (talk) 16:40, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
            • I used to argue just that, based on my reading of WP:N, but now when I look at WP:N, I find it doesn't give me room to say that. I think that guideline has been edited to leave that part out, but I can't find the edit, and WP:WEB doesn't have it either. While you can interpret the MSN/Nine source as one of "multiple" sources giving a significant amount of coverage (a consensus interpretation of something like that is just what a discussion like this is for), you can't interpret any of the other sources as offering a significant amount. Different interpretations of those sources amount to "jury nullification" -- simply refusing to acknowledge that they're insufficient is not good enough. There is certainly enough support here to make a common-sense argument that we should make an exception here, but you need the argument as well, and ultimately you need endorsement of that argument by the closing admin of the DRV that will inevitably follow this discussion. How likely is it that that admin will agree to flout the guideline for the good of Misplaced Pages and its readers, considering all the drama that an ED article will bring? Noroton (talk) 17:04, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
              • Oh, WP:ORG allows for just that kind of exception you mention, Chunky Rice. That's where it is ("Primary criterion" section), but that guideline doesn't apply to Web sites. WP:WEB takes over. Noroton (talk) 17:14, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
                • Well, the wiggle room is still there. WP:N basically says that if a subject satisfies the criteria laid out, it is presumed notable. But it doesn't say that a subject that fails to meet them is automatically not notable. You simply need to present a reasonable argument why, even though the subject doesn't meet the WP:N presumption of notability, it is notable. Here, that argument might be "We have one in depth source and many, many other sources with coverage that borders on trivial. Culmultaively, the amount of attention from third party sources is comparable to having two in depth articles." I haven't decided what I really think about this article's notability (it's borderline, for sure), but I think that there are reasonable arguments that can be made in favor of it. The fact that it's spelled out in WP:ORG just goes to show that it is a reasonable argument. Don't get trapped in the specific wording of the various notability policies - that's not what Misplaced Pages is about. It's much more important to follow the spirit, not the letter, of the policy/guideline. -Chunky Rice (talk) 17:18, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
              • The fact that the article would bring drama should have no bearing on the discussion. Trivial mentions plus one non-trivial source is a common sense reason to keep. We have kept articles on a lot less...a whole lot less. In fact, if pretty much any other article came to AfD with this much sourcing, it would probably be a snow keep. But because there's all kinds of wikidrama behind this one, it's being held to a higher standard. --Smashville 17:22, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete per SHEFFIELDSTEEL ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:33, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep per the ninemsn article. Although that's only one about the website, there are certainly a lot of other sources that discuss it somewhat, and I think that's quite sufficient. In any case, WP:N is a guideline, not policy -- WP:V is the real policy, and there is certainly enough reliable material here to maintain an article, even if it would be a short one. WP:NOT#PAPER, folks: if the topic can be written about reliably, and it is slightly less important than some would like, there just isn't a compelling case to delete it. Mangojuice 15:36, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment. I think the gawker one is also about the website. And about other sites, too, but its coverage of ED seems nontrivial to me — it's not just a passing mention in an article about some other subject, it's a whole paragraph specifically devoted to describing ED. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:18, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Weak keep. Multiple sources show a breadth, if not depth, of coverage that indicate but not conclusively demonstrate the subject is notable. Procedurally, I'm disturbed by an AfD on a protected article, preventing WP:HEY from working. —Quasirandom (talk) 15:44, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • keep - notable enough. HOWEVER, the article really needs to be kept focused on the website and it's notoriety NOT the actual content (which I find mostly stupid, and occasionally really awful). --Rocksanddirt (talk) 15:47, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep -- notable, controversial, needs its story told with a NPOV. If individual editors have had problems being harassed, libelled, etc., that's a job for the police; suppressing valid content is not the appropriate way of "fighting back". You wouldn't suppress an article on the Mob because they were after some editor, would you?Orbis 3 (talk) 15:57, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • omgbbqdramaz -- lucasbfr 16:01, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment - Can we do this when the page isn't fully protected, please? shoy 16:08, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Neutral, leaning towards delete: Possibly deserves an article, what with the uproar it has caused in the online community, but I'm not sure if we should have an article about something that dedicates its time to slagging us off. I, personally, don't think ED should even exist, but it does. The article seems OK-ish, but does need to go...... Dendodge .. Talk 16:28, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep. This is obviously all about wanting to delete a page because we don't like the people it's about. Well, guess what? We have Osama bin Laden. Look, anybody arguing that ED is not notable is making a nonsense argument, it has been mentioned in mainstream press. I think those among us who cannot laugh at our own ED pages (assuming we have them) have forgotten that life isn't always a serious endeavor. If somebody were to create a page for me saying something along the lines of "Node_ue is a faggot Wikipedo who is too obsessed with things he knows nothing about, such as Moldova or languages", I wouldn't be upset. That is because I understand the true intention of ED, which is lulz, not being mean and attacking people. It is intended for humor, even if it's a bit mean-spirited. If we can't laugh at ourselves, then we are already dead inside. --Node (talk) 16:30, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment. As mentioned pretty much all over the place above, the fact that this page is fully protected is pretty much going to make any delete get overturned at DRV. So the page should either be dropped to a semi-protect or this AfD should be closed as out of process. --Smashville 16:31, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • delete. Thanks, SqueakBox 16:41, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Rebuttal to the "fully-protected so we can't add sources" argument: Anyone who can find a source can add it right here, and that works just as well. There is no requirement to actually add it to the article mainspace. The closing admin is required to discount all delete votes based on notability if their notability objections are met. Noroton (talk) 16:43, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

arbitrary section break 2

  • Keep - this article just passed DRV with a fairly strong consensus to recreate. AfDing it within a week of this occurring simply creates 'drahmaz!!!111'; some of the 'delete' arguments have a definite whiff of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Yes, ED attacks Misplaced Pages , but that doesn't mean that it should be denied an article. The article is well sourced, with mentions in mainstream media. Can we please come to at least a semblance of a conclusion on this for the sake of everyone's sanity! RichardΩ612 Ɣ |ɸ 17:04, May 15, 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment. I already added my !vote above, but I wanted to add another point. While I think we can reach a good decision based on the existence of multiple nontrivial sources (and I think both the ninemsn and gawker articles count as such), I think that sort of beancounting misses the point. There are two things we should be thinking about that our guidelines and policies are intended to address: is it possible to write a nontrivial and fully verifiable article about the subject, and is the subject one of sufficient prominence that it's worth our while devoting space to it? Clearly, it is possible to write a decent article — I haven't seen anyone here arguing, as often happens at other AfDs, that the article is full of unsourceable original research. And as for, is it a subject of sufficient prominence? Has any Wikipedian not heard of it? And the Alexa ranks are meaningful for answering this sort of question, too, I think. So I think counting sources and carefully assessing which are trivial and which are nontrivial amounts to wikilawyering when a step back and a look at the bigger picture makes the decision clear. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:28, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Websites-related deletion discussions. -- Fabrictramp (talk) 17:31, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep For frak's sake! This article was only just created and it's already at AfD?!? Several citations with WP:RS. Certainly much better coverage than the recently saved First Internet Backgammon Server. Please apply policy consistently. Give the article some time to grow. Neapolitan Sixth (talk) 17:54, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment I should point out that most of the people !voting delete either are the subject of an article on ED or are affiliated with someone who does. This would be a serious WP:COI and these people should recuse themselves from the discussion. In the least these people's comments should be discounted. Neapolitan Sixth (talk) 18:00, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep. This smacks of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Clearly a notable web site. Klausness (talk) 18:01, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • You fuckers got me out of retirement for this vote. Keep just because we hate something doesnt mean we delete it. Else we'd not have Hitler or Dahmer articles (yes thats right I Godwinned this bitch). Trivial coverage in one source ok i'd buy that argument if that was the only source... but trivial coverage in 15 sources, and an in depth article or two from a few is more than sufficient bar to pass for notability purposes. Find me non trivial coverage of the president of Lesotho oh wait you cant do that either... Seriously way to ruin any potential historical use of this site in 50 years. This is the shit that made me leave.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 18:02, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
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